Mind Over Body Performance

Here's another episode of the Cloud based mayayhem to this show with Ben Hodgson He reached out to Ben recently Well he reached out to me because he needed all my media stuff to cover the XPer. He raced in the last XPer. this time he's doing kind of what I do for the Red Bull X elps. He's a roging live commentator and doing media, so he needed a muchch of my camera gear that I was given by Marco with Paraglighting Live a couple of years ago. So you know all the mounts, all the stuff I used to do all that, it's all complicated, dangerous carrying and all that stuff. So we sat down to just talk about that side of things By the end of it, I thought, man, I gott to get you on the show. I of course knew about Ben and some of the racing he's done. He's from South Africa. You have very similar backgrounds with boats. He's been working on crew of big boats for a long time. But yeah, he raced in the Xiir. his sister was a supporter because his team wasn't able to help him right at the very last second. so he brought in his sister who knew nothing about Paron Ling We have some laughs about his last ere and that home it all went really well and they had a blast and a really cool sister brother team. Now he's raced in the experxbert and now South Africa, which unfortunately is not happening anymore. He's done a lot of hike comp fied racing down in Brazil. I didn't know that was such a big thing down there, but what we else to talk about being a supporter. He was Gabe Jansen's supporter in the last Red Bull X Alps who Gabe was you know fighting real hard in the top five through I believe day six. Nobody heard about him. It was amazing. I think he's only been flying for three years and but super hungry and gotten a ton of hours. Those two had raced together and Ben decided to support him. So he was kind of the main supporter in that role we get to hear a lot about how that campaign went and just what it's like to be on the other side. He's got plenty of experience in both as an athlete and as a sporter. He's flown all over the world, super passionate. here so actually by the time this comes out, the next pair will keep going. So yeah, we talk all kinds of things, you know, risk and flying and hiking fly and training and doing cool stuff. Enjoy this one. Th Hod Hod said, Cers Ben. Thanks for coming on the show man. It's been fun to chat with you here in the last little bit and sounds like you got a fun gig coming up with the X pier similar to what I've been doing with the X ops the last couple times. You've competed in the race. you've got quite a history here with a lot of hike and fly racing with the Borns to fly a bunch of times in the Chableay and the Exberg and The XPir course and several others you mentioned we'll get into that, but it was your was your first out in The X Burg in twenty seventeen. was that your first race out in South Africa? Hey, Gevin. firstirst of all, thanks so much for having me on the podcast Yeah, I've followed this podcast for ages and never thought I'd be here. so Super, super cool to be chatting to you. yeah, my first, well, I did a little mini solo hike mission, hike and fly mission down off the back of Solari's Pass, which is down near Cape Town. and not a very good place to go hike and fly But I'd ended up with like a twenty K flight and a sleep out in the mountains or there more hills. And then a long walk back, I was studying down there at University But yeah, my first race was Exburg in twenty seventeen Is he still doing the Xperg? because I remember talking to Nick Nanens about it. It sounds like an awesome race, but it's not it's not still going right? No they stopped it I actually wanted to go out when I was training for Expeare. I wanted to go out to do it again and that year they decided to call it off because I think a lot of organization and they' kind of done what they wanted to do. You know, the it's it was always it' quite a cool concept because it's not just hike and fly, it's trail runners versus mountain bikers vers high and highi athletes and they sort of set the rooute. So it You know, there's no clear, no clear person who's going to win. So yeah it was a cool concept. But it's tricky there. It's all in national parks. it needs a lot of I think a lot of organization to get it running No. And you're from Joeberg Yeah. well more more little farming town called Escort. I was born in Jeg and then moved down to the farm at a pretty young age but I learned to fly and down in Cape Town I was done in Sinenbush studying Engineering And then yeah, learn to fly down there And that's getting that's table Mountain Yeah, more. I mean, we learn there's little training slopes nearby and then I sort of got into the cross country scene and spent a lot of time in Portvable And then also around Stenbush, Fran Oook's a good site, Solari's Pass. They're cool sights because you're quite close to the sea and you can still go X E from them So yeah, we spend a lot of time I used to finish lectures and then run up the mountain behind instead on Bos. o for an evening flight And yeah, they had like we had the Svens rugby will will sort of cap rugby and then I f over flew over the stadium with a South African flag underneath me and made it on TV and all this stuff yeah Before we move on more into kind of hike and fly and your history and stuff, I haven't spent a ton of time in South Africa, but I sailed you know around Cpe Cape Good Hope and came down from the easastern side. We were up in Mozambique. This was back in two thousand ten, I guess, so we did, you know, back and forth between Madagascar and Mozambique a couple of times and then down the east Cast. I only had one buddy on that who was not a sailor. That's, you know, one of the scarier places in the world to sail a boat. So that that was pretty intense. And then you know, spent a bunch of time in Cape Town, but I was doing a lot of maintenance on the boat. So I didn't get to do a ton. And then years later we went back started the, where did we fly in? I think we flew into Joeberg and then we did that. you might have seen we did a little outside TV thing up in Malawi. And so we went up through Botswana, which I loved in Zambia and around in Malawi. and so I've done a little bit of travel down there, but I remember our time in both on the coast and then when we did that road trip up through, we didn't fly in South Averic at all. that you know, the destination was Malawi and and to do the flying there on the massif. But the I found it a really tense place just in terms of security and it just seem, especially Joeberg, I felt I've never seen so much barbed wire and I remember I remember getting off the boat A guy picked me up that was in Durban and getting off the boat and we had to go check in because I that was first stop coming in from Mozambique. And so we had to do, you know, the customs thing, which is pretty traditional And a guy from the club, the yachting club there, you know, took me He was taking me to the customs agent or whatever it was and we stopped at a stop lightight in the city and he was he was from Durbin. I mean, that's where he lived And we stopped and I started rolling down my window and it was he almost like punched me, you know, just that fucking window up and whoa, what's going on? because they they will come out and shoot you in the face. And I was just wa what? I mean, I've spent some time in some dicey places, but curious to just get your quick thoughts on, you know, because people go down for World Cups at Porterville and fly there and that kind of thing. and You know, there's been some really cool long distance flights that have gone down back all the way to Nevell Hewitt. Yeah when he broke the record. What's that like? and put it into perspective is is it over is this overblown or was I just, you know, being a scared ky because I just felt uncomfortable. Yeah just that there was a lot of tension between bllacks and whites and it was, I don't know, I justel it was uncomfortable. Yeah I think it is generally very overblown. you know, I always tell people it's I still think, you know, I'm very lucky I've traveled a lot with my work And I still think South Africa is probably one of the best places in the world to go visit. and that's not from a biased point because I live there But it's not the easiest place to live And u, you know, there's You've got to be street wise. There's places where where you go where you need to be careful, but you can go there and you can have you know a month's holiday and have the time of your life and be actually really quite safe. So as long as you do your research and you don't You know, the people who get into trouble there are going to places that you should never go to. And obviously how do you know that as a tourist? but you've got to do your research and But if you want to go fly there, if you part of a comp, if it I mean, it's such a cool country, it's so diverse The food's amazing. and generally the people are amazing too. you know, it's got this sort of bad reputation That's quite sad and things happen and it gets focused on that Sure Yeah, the majority of people they are actually fantastic and really cool I'm drawing a blank. What are your favorite Barbies called? Your barbecues bres The bres. Y, right? Oh my God, the food we had down there was incredible. Yeah, it's a beautiful place. gosh. I do I actually have like you said, really diverse. A bit of a funny story which is related to this because my sister was my supporter during Eakespeare She hadn't really, you know, she'd been to the UK. My mother's originally from the UK, but she'd never really been to Europe and She lives in Kenya, which is You know, Nairobi is pretty chaotic. And so she flew out and it was like two days before the start of the race. and she had to go into France to pick up some socks or you know, I needed something before the race And it was sort of late evening and I drove up And she was super confused because Suddenly everyone was speaking French and they'd just been speaking Spanish and you know, she was just like, well, we didn't go through a border or any of this And then on the way back, I was like, oh, well, you better drive the van. I've got a T five van and I was like you better drive the van so you get used to driving it So the sun's gone down and we leave the sort of shopping center and we come to this four way stop and the lights are red. And she just goes straight through the red light. And I'm like, wow, Megs, you can't do that.ir. And basically like with us, you know we gre up but when it's dark, you don't stop at traffic lights, soor we call them robots Right. But, you know, it's just like re into her and she's been straight through this red light and I thought, Oh God now you know I'm going to have all these findes and everything. So there is I mean there is a re Yeah there's a reason we like that. but I wouldn't I wouldn't let it put you' visiting It's it's a really cool place. One of my kind of loose supporters and actually he was a client on the boat for many, many years a guy named Keith Coockram. He's he's raising his daughter he and his wife and his daughter. They're living in Cpe Town. He's he's from Texas. Yeah. And she's she's Ukrainian actually and been really involved in the kind of the anti war thing but but they live in Cape Town and just love it they just they can't imagine being anywhere else. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's a stunning It's a stunning place. Okay, so you do the X per sorry, the Ebberg in twenty seventeen. Was that about when you learned to fly or how long When did you start flying? So I started actually in twenty eleven I went I got into it. My father flew hot air balloons. So from a very young age, I used to I couldn't see over the basket. I used to look up the little footwall and used to go blasting around in a hard a of balloon with them And then I was in New Zealand. I did like a three month exchange thing when I was sixteen and I went on a tandem down in Queenstown and just thought it was the coolest thing, but I thought it was like a pilot's license. you know, I thought you know it was you did that when you were older type thing. and Then I was a big kite surfer when I was studying down in Stellenbach and I used to kite every day basically. And before that I used to do a lot of dirt bikes, endurros and motorbike racing. And yeah we sort of kite it all summer and then one of my best friends who I was kiting with was Basically the season ends then as you' go into winter the windsle, you know, the trade other the trades, the they call the Cape Doctor, the Southeaster dies off And we werere like, oh, what are we going to do? You know we don't we don't spend too much time studying. So He's a friend who we cied with flu and they're like, Ohh, you guys should try paragliding. And yeah so we went for this kind of demo day with Barry runs a guiding school there And Yeah, I mean like I just fell in love. I think my first, you know, we did a bit of training and then signed up and my I think my third flight was two hours, just we had perfect conditions and I was just soaring on this tiny little hill that probably shouldnt shouldn't have been soarable And just fet as I sold everything I had, motorbikes, the works and you know just to pay for I was a student. no money and then just to pay for it and Yeah, and then got into sort of XE and my first flight and did like a ten K XE and I just thought this is mad U So gave up partying and saved all my money for the weekends to drive up to Portuville and started flying. So that was kind of the start U And then I'd be curious wasas your was when you learned how to fly, was that the end of your kite surfing or have you kept with Kiser? No, you know you and I have, you know, I have a long background of Kiser. Yeah I never, you know, we had the whole kite surfing expedition all the way around the world and, you know, spent a lot of time doing it, but it never grabbed me like paralite Yeah it was, you know, it was fun not the same. So kind of the same, I still do it, but I constantly go back to it. So flying's my staple, you know, it's It's my big focus. It's If I had to pick one, it would be flying And then I don't kite for like six months and then I go kiding and I'm like, Ohh man, why do I stop this? It's so much fun. And then I'm mad on it for like another three months and then it kind of drifts away It also became a bit of bit like work like you my main I work on a on a sailing yacht. And I was sort of an official kite instructor on that. So I was teaching the guy who owned the boat and doing kind of tours with him, which was great fun. I mean it's fun work, but like all things when it when your sport becomes wor It's worth wor Yeah. ye, you're right. sure Where's the boat So that boat I actually left. I was on there for six years and we sailed Wh we try to go around the world, but we got hit by lightning twice and few other things. But we got out two friend. So this this is a super yacht? Yes, yeah, ye. but a sailing sailing sailing super yacht. Yeah. so family owned. Yeah. o. And now recently I'm on a racing yacht so it's a hundred foot maxi But I'm an engineer. not a sailor. I've learnnt to sail But I And you're up in the UK now At the moment I am, but I'm normally based. We do three months in the Caribbean and then the rest of the time I'm based around the mid. m based in Mallorkca And then we do regriattas around How do you get your flying time That's the interesting question. So used I used to be full time and that was a really big gap in my flying sort of to rewind from EXpeare not E Exberg. I then started working, Exburg was my kind of first year into working And so I I went from a student having time to working and my flying really Yeah I still flew, but really not not a lot. bad thenen I was on the boat and I was full time on the boat and again flew sort of yeah, I just didn't have the time to really give it the attention it needs And then I ended up working rotations. So then I was three months on, three months off U And And that's when, I mean, I'd always dreamed to do XPer. and that's where I kind of went right now' my my time in my life when I can do it because I've got, you know, I've got six months of the year where I can focus, focus on it But it's a funny one. And was that was twenty four your first one For EXpeere Exi Yeah, I've only done one and that was was the first one. So I started about two years before, really U I've said it as my goal and really did not think I'd get into it. You know, I was probably When I started, I was maybe one hundred and fifty hour pilot And whoa. Yeah, it was super low. And so in two years I just really David full steam and Um Yeah, did a whole bunch of hi can fly races, did a whole bunch of SIV. and went from flying a high be to a oI by the end of it and still was very out of my depth but my whole goal was that EXP is the dream. and if I don't get there, the journey up to it is so cool anyways that if that Dream doesn't happen, then it's been a cool journey, you know and we keep trying So yeah, that's I'm curious. why why XPer? whyy was that one that was the magnet as opposed to I don't know, Iiger or X Alps or a million other on Borns to fly. I know you've done Born to fly timimes, but U Why that one? What was the one? Why did that pique your interest so? So I think the two things, I actually went to the Pyrenees when I left South Africa straight away And I just thought it was such a cool place And it kind of reminded me of home a bit, some of the mountains, there's some similarities Um The real answer was I You know, X AlLps, it was always between EX AlLps and XPer, you know, they were the two the two big ones And I thought if I'm going to do one, there's more chance of me doing EXPere And I also liked initially the fact of it seemed a bit more like undercover, you know, XPia there's there's I mean, X Alps, there's so much limelight, there's all the sponsorship, there's get on to that You know, Expeus, I thought that I could do it more not notot racing and more as an adventure and Canansough had that re out possibility. So that was That was the dream for it. ye There's there's I don't I don't know the Pyrenees very well. I did a World Cup in Targason whatever that was a couple of years ago. Stunning. I mean, I've driven through them a few times. I've flown a little bit mostly on the south side on the Spain side what I hear from people who have done the race is It is a lot more adventure. It's way harder on the support teams because the roads are tough But also in a lot of ways can be more dicey. wouldould you I mean, you haven't done the ex Alps, but you've obviously flown a lot in the Alps. What? I I don't know why. is that because the the the the terrain? Is that because of the winds? What what is that what is it that can make it kind of Yeah, the big things is the wind, you know, the raange doesn't it does to a degree, but it doesn't really block prevailing winds like the Alps do U So, you know, we all know about food and stuff in the Alps and you're kind of You know, you have your windows where you know, the massif, if you like your prevailing wins and you get all your micro stuff whereereas I think the Pynees is because of its location and because it's a bit lower you don't always get that effect. So you have a lot of wind on the south side and obviously it's quite a so regularly it's quite a strong southwesterly wind so you fled a bit more bit more like portable really with these, you know you're flying thermic sides, but you're aware of the wind as opposed to I think you ou to be a lot more careful diving into the Lee side in the Pyrenees And then yeah, it's it's the It's just a lot more remote. There's valleys there, which was also my big attraction. There's valleys there that There's not much, not much in it. Where's the Alps. You know, you can get lost in the Alps, but you're never too far away from something. Whereas the Pyrenees it's a bit more it's a bit more wild and remote. Oh Yeah, that was always, that was something that took me really years in the Alps of flying. You know, you'd bust through some coal and You know, you're tall and it's glaciated and it's epic and it doesn't matter where you bust through. there's going to be a village Yeah. In fact, it was I remember Paul Guserbauer telling me that, you know, hey, never, never, never l always make the next move. There's always going to be a field and that's gotten me in some serious trouble. I mean, I've flown down some river canyons where it's just God, I wish I would have taken that last field back there and just o God, o God, o God o God, Oh God and it's always worked R right. But man, you can ye, you know, there's so there there is always something but it God it feels deep, but then you're not that Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So the other thing with the Pones as a Southa, I think can be, you know, there's areas that are known to be quite strong, if you like U and it's probablyably, you know, you more south.'s it's hotter, you know, like around Castaondersource n the panchy days, it's strong flying and maybe that built a reputation to I always found in my XAps campaigns that the You know, the scouting and the research and the weather and, you know, figuring out and kind of having option ABC for getting between a couple way pointoints was was so was such a big lift, especially for someone who's not from there Yeah, you know, that was coming in for, you know, for me from the States or from you from South Africa or the UK. is that is that a big Is that a pretty big deal with the XPer as well or can you kind of show up? Because I mean, really it's West to east you know, there are the various waypoints, but when you look at the history of the track logs, there's not a ton of variation. you know, you're H you know, the big things that, you know, when they put that X in the last one, that was really cool , you know, he had to go the opposite direction for a while, but is there is that a big part Is that a big part of the kind of prep Yeah, I mean, when I did it, I spent about ten days before the race, kind of scouting, not everywhere, but really looking at there' some key places where you can cross You know, you can't I mean, on rarely good days, you can probably cross anywhere But there's some key places to cross the main spine, if you like and as well as your supporter this not You know, there's there's only a few places where there's tunnels or roads, you know passes that you can get over. So that you need to be aware of where you can make those moves. And then the north side, you know, I didn't spend that much time on the north side. Most of my scouting was on the south side and cost me a bit just knowing lines and being aware of areas and kind of getting stuck, but that's also's a part part of the racing Um, and I, you know, I think This edition will be quite interesting because there's a lot of local pilots. in this edition and Yeah, it' be quite interesting to see in the areas where they're from, whether that gives them a big advantage or not You know, there's some there's some tricky tricky spots and tricky places and valleys they've got across. and From what I've been told from a lot of the locals, there's some tricks to doing it. And yeah, you might see some interesting stuff, interesting stuff go on there Did you feel, you know with your borns to fly and the Sableay and some of the other hiking flies? races that you've done Was that the most valuable prep going into the X pier or was it something else? And I know you got to tell the story about your sister. You know, that you had you had your team set up, team couldn't go and then your sister came in who knew nothing, right? about paragliding really. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'll start with that and then get on get on to the side Yeahah, so I sort of had a team and then various reasons it sort of didn't yeah, they had family issues and things And so I phoned my sister up and I just needed needed someone. And it was about three weeks. And she's in Kenya at this. She was in Kena, yeah And she had she had actually done a horse race across Patagonia ten day self supported horse race. I thought she'll be up for it. and got we've got a good relationship. so gave her a shout and she was super keen And Yeah, she came over and I mean the first time she saw me fly was literally the day before the start. We kind of went and hiked up Lerun and then went over the back And then there's a site once you're out of airpace that you can go and kind of saw. and So yeah, we in Fch. she was like, o wow, this is super cool. But never I had no idea about it until I set her up with a track. And I just said, you know, I'll tell you where to go And all I need you to do really is food. food and water and hydration and I'll do everything else And I mean, she was a rock star. she was amazing, but it was quite funny because she got interviewed twice by Judith And you know, Jud is sort of asking all these questions about the race and about me. And so she's got it there. and she says, you know M So we've seen Ben hiking up and you know, he's about to launch and you know, where What is his plan for the day? Is he going to try to get ono the south side? Is he staying north? And she just sort of looks at her with big eyes and just goes,, I don't know, Hey, I've never done this before. And then Yeah, that's great. And she just had you know every question she asked and then she sort of went on you A you guys at a bit of a disadvantage. You know, someome teams have two supporters, some have three and she's just like, do they? cool, you know, I don't know. just winging it but A I mean yeah, we made we made so many friends there and everyone loved her because she was just so, you know, she was just so excited and so up with adventure. And I'd see her, you know, I'd send her a pin drop at this possible launch And I'd dow, she's there, she's there if not you know, find out the next one and I'd be hiking up and next thing. There's a video of her just like doing this dance on top of the hill because she's so stoked that she she's at the right place and not lost and So no it was it it was great fun was super cool. Did did that u did that experience had you had you ever been a supporter Not before you supported Gabe in the elms. No, no. so. It was the first yeah, the first time I'd supported Yeah I'm just I'm curious because you had said yesterday when we were just chatting about other stuff before we you know, we're recording today, you were saying that you're you know, because your sister was really, you know, she came into it last minute and didn't know about paragliding, you know, it's like you said, it's, you know, out okay, just just come there and you'd probably give her a pin or something, but you were obviously running your own support crew in a sense. You'rere you're telling her where to go. So you were having to decide what launches an aspect and time of day and crround navigation, all the things that, you know, for me, I didn't do any of that stuff. That was always my team did all that for me. Did that really slow you down? Did you learn a lot about it? Was it did that end up being great? Was it too much? I'd be curious, you know in the moment was what was that like? I would say was a mix of both. For me, it was really cool because it was my adventure of crossing the Pyrenees, you know, so I was doing everything and in terms of The racing you know, and obviously I couldn't have done it without Megs, you know, she was so good at cooking me food and you know up two hours before me. But in terms of the flying and the hiking, I did everything. So it was really My adventure which was really cool but it is it is a lot more load and it is slower. you know, to give an example I think it was the third day and I got and this is another funny story, but I got to crossain the main chain and I'd sort of flown a bit slow in the morning and the guys I was not far off the front pack. And they all got over And I got stuck on a little ridge just before getting onto the main spines by a place called Loudenville. And it's kind of one of the main highways through And then I relaunched and got up and I was sort of half soaring, half climbing up the main spine And as I was climbing up, I could just see the cloud covered coming down onto the top of the peaks and just shut everything down. I was like, o, okay, I'm not going to get through there. And then there was a big rain rainstorm coming from the other side. And I'm sitting there and I'm like, okay can't fly over. so what you know, I hadn't really planned, you know, att the start of the day I thought, oh yeah, you know, fly thermal up there across the easy place and all forget And so I'm sitting there and I start so I sit on this bit where there's a bit of lift and I'm start looking at the map and I'm like, okay, well There's and there's a lot of airpace in that first section of the Pyrenees, which is tricky to navigate. But I'm looking for a road for megs to go through and there's one sort of in the complete wrong direction So I message her and I'm like, Hey Meg, I can't get through here go to this road. I'm going to fly towards that road, land and then you know we'll hike. And then I start flying there and then I'm like, Oh but hang on I can go south. rather So I turn around and send another message I'm like, Hey, Megs, wait A I can go east and there's a, you know, that's the right direction. And there's a road further down there that I can then go through. and then I like lose a hundred meters and then I'm climbing up again and you know I can see the storm coming and there's just so much going on and try to look on this little phone screen And Yeah, so that really cost me. I mean that I really lost You know, everyone else everyone who got over was gone U and and in the build up to that You know, I was I'm trying to think the name. It's a famous cycling place Anyways, I had kind of flown off there and I was with Leonard Olock. And he he adds the sort of route across the high terrain and had made when I looked at it afterwards, you know, it was a great learning thing to do because, you know He was so much more efficient just by you know, I went on this mega glide down the valley in the morning going wow, this is awesome, you know And then hiked around and literally was hiking up to launch again and he came screaming over my head, you know and I' lost two hours on him and that was Pier Rot choice you know, should have just glided across landed high nine thirty, ten o'clock start and you know, in hindsight, pretty basic, basic stuff But you have so much So there is a lot of hits. and I think In EXLps, it was really interesting Gabe and I working together and we'll get on to that. Butm going back to the main spine there, so I ended up pretty much starting to fly south and then the rain hit me and I literally have to spiral down and land in probably the worst place in this valley in Laudenville, which I knew like been there before and I was like, This is one place not to land because you you start got it. wherever you go, you've got to go backwards So I landed and I was in a bit of a state and then I was like, I've stuffed up my whole race and then I phoned mags and I was like, you know, we just have an early night and I'm going to have to climb over the mountain in the morning and And then Yeah, I sort of walked a bit and then I was like, h Actually, it's sixteen hundred meters of vertical whatever, fifteen Ks I think four and a half hours I think if I leave now, I can do that. And so there's massive storms going on and I have bone makes and I'm like, meet me here Sandwich ready, jacket ready and I'm going as light as I can. and then I was like and I'll send you a pin drop And I don't know if it's a road. It kind of looks like a road If it's not a road, just leave the van on the side of the road, take a tent and hike up this trail and you'll find because in XPA you can't move. you have to stop at nine PM Yeah ye yeah. And soound wass like you'll find me somewhere So I sent to the entrance to this road, took all my stuff and charged off it and there was lightning going on and I walked about half forty five minutes and came up and I mean it's a beautiful place. It's probably today the most beautiful hike I've ever done in my life But just saw this massive snowy kind of trail going up. I hadd no snow kit with me and I was just like, o, what have and it was the sketchiest climb been over. And And I was just flat chat just because I knew I had to get there by nine And there's a great video of Meg driving up this sketchy little road. just she's like hysterical but just killing herself with laughter And she's like, Mk. bin's absolutely mad you know is run over the hill, the whole the m the main chain of the Pyrenees And you know what? if I don't find him, I guess he's having a cold night tonight the out in the mountain. And it was amazing. I literally came down and yeah, I think I got to her about two minutes to nine and found it at this at this weird little like campsite in the middle of nowhere. And yeah Did you did you talk to your sister in advance? I remember the Probably for all four of my campaigns, the best advice I ever got and it was actually our team. was my buddy Bruce, who supported me in the first two We got from Tom Payne who had done it, who had supported A. No my God, the British athlete back in day two thousand nine, twenty eleven. and then he did it in twenty thirteen himself. Yeah. Anyway. he said he wrote a book on it. The guy I'm trying to think, I can't believe I can't remember his name. Anyway. Tom said, you know, hey Not Alie Andrews No. He did really well. He was the British athlete two thousand nine to twenty eleven. Um dra a blank. He wrote a great book about the X house as well, which was really helpful for us going into my rookie year. but Tom said you gott to have What have you what do you guys work together? What have you guys come up with for conflict resolution And both Bruce and I went what? And and he said, Yeahah, you got it you're going to make a lot of mistakes. You got to you got to have a plan beforehand how to deal with them. And And and we resolved to just, okay, well, we laugh a lot. We seem to have a lot of fun together. Let's just make fun of Gavin. And you know, well,'ll try to process the mistake. You know, hey, what do we do wrong Let's laugh about it, not make the mistake again and move on. That's it. We don't get to talk about it ever again. It's just one time. And and that works really well for us that we would just turn whatever mistake it was into comedy. So kind of like your experience there with your sister. you know, she's just laughing. she doesn't care. She's just having a great adventure, you know? And that seem to work really well, but is that is that something that you guys talked about beforehand? Is that is are these What are some of the main things you learned either with your sister or also with the racing beforehand that helps you in these moments. Yes, sir I mean, with my sister, I think it's quite unique because we have a really good relationship and she knows probably knows me the best out of anyone I could get to support me U So it was probably unwritten unsaid, but just live there and it was qu it was quite easy between the two of us. you know, when I supported Gabe, we had a whole team. there was a team of five of us and there we spoke about it a lot more. And Yeah, it similar kind of kind of concept of ultimately are we here for fun and ultimately we say, you know, ultimately Gabe's word is final So there's one person who you, if there's big conflict and And We not you know we need resolution. Gabe has the final say But we actually never, we never really got got any conflict like that. Yeah, we all just seem to be quite happy And I think You know, for us for when it's your first it depends on your expectations and you know, you know, XP I You know, I had loads of worries going into Expeere like am I good enough? Is this stupid? You know, am I going to you know Am I going to kill myself? You know, am I going to be you know fourour days behind everyone So I really went in with really, really low expectation and The same, you know, with Eiles, we were huge underdogs, you know For sure we had put huge work into it. So there was our own self expectations, but we will you know, I remember Gabe saying to me Ben the number one goal is we avoid the crocodile, which, you know, the The execution, the executionary calls them the crocodile And he said, as long as we avoid the crocodile, you know, then we're happy. and No I think in How did you how did you end up on sorry, go ahead. I think in our campaign, you know, we did make a lot of notes and things and we really wanted to speak more about conflict resolution. I mean, this came from a lot of your podcasts And it was a hot topic that we really wanted to address We had a plan, but We didn't it was one of those things that kind of we ran out of time in our prep with it. Yeah it happen so much to you How did how did you end up on the team? let's switch. we're just timing wise here. We should switch over to X opps. How did you end up team How did you know Gabe? I mean, from my perspective, Gabe came out of nowhere. and you know, there was there's there's always beginers luck in a sense, but I mean, until Gabe got hurt, he was in it And and just, you know, from from my perspective, all my campaigns and then also seeing it from the outside This was a course that nobody saw coming and and it wasn't just beginners' luck. You guys just kept ounding and talk about that Yeah because it was truly extraordinary So I mean, to give you a quick history, basically in my prep for EXpeare, I just try to do as many hike and fly races as I could and ended up going to Brazil race. I met a guy. I came to the EX Alps before, I think it was the two thousand three exX Alps And I did, they had this like weird little Austrian race called Hike smile and Fies or something and it was like really quirky and you would like fly and land and you know, throw tennis balls in a hoop and then take off again and And anyways, I think I came some no one knew how the scoring worked, but I think I came second or something. And one of the one of the prizes was an entry to this The Br the organ the friend of the organizer of the race was there And they were trying to, you know promote the race, h and fly race in Brazil. So one of the prizes was a free entry to it and I was on the boat and I was like, no, I can't go And then two weeks before literally my plans changed with the boat and I phoned them and I was like, Hey, I know this is ludicrous. It's two weeks before the start, but I'm trying to do as many races as I can to qualify for Yakespeare. Can I come race? And they were super cool. They organized every I mean, I can't speak Portuguese. They organized me an English speaking supporter. She's also great. No idea about paragliding seems to be a trend of mine But helped me get a car, you know, just did everything and really treated me like I was this rock star hike and fly athlete arriving in Brazil U And so he went I went and raced there and It's a really cool rate. I mean, the people they are amazing and ended up meeting Gabe there and we raced together and We had really bad weather and ran I think the second day I did seventy K or something on the ground in pretty hot hot weather And u I was actually I was leading and well I was second and on the third day there was coming into the finish, there was kind of two last turn points and there was a guy in front of me And I actually messaged him and I was like, Hey, mate, what's? Be everyone's so friendly. you know, everyone everyone's together. It's a really cool community. And I was like, what's your plan for tomorrow? I was like, I'm going to tag the turnpoint and then actually hike back and fly off the back valley. And he's like, o no, I think that's a bit sketchy. There's no landing there. I'm going to go around the front So and he was, you know, maybe three K in front of me And So I hiked down sign the sign board, saw him gliding off down the valley and I was like,h, here's my Kregl moment, you know here's my chance to win the race. So I shot back up to the top of the hill, took off and it was working. And when I came down, I checked it and it was working. So I soared up there, but it was still quite early in the morning. and flew across the valley and it was like just it was a really weird day. It was kind of overcast, but it was just starting to lift. And I could feel the lift but not enough to climb in And so I sort of eked it out, eked it out, and then landed probably ten K in front of the guy who had glided down And I was like, cool, know all I've got to do is hike up this next mount and tag the turnpoint and glide to the finish and I've won And But I knew Gabe was and Gabe she did a lot of trail running ultras and things. and I knew he was strong on the ground and I knew he was behind me and I knew he could fly And so I was running through the town and everyone's cheering me on and stuff and I've got my phone and I' just and I remember saying to the girl there who does the Instagram. was She was filming me and And she was like, o, you know and you know going on and I was like, yeah, but Gab's coming, watch Gabe. And sure enough, he took off and he had seen what I did and did the same thing and climbed up and the race basically ended. It's in Pankas. It's quite a well known place, I don't know if youve heard of it on the main launch site there. So it's probably a six hundred meter climb at this like rocky phase. It's pretty cool S likeure Asic Park And I was climbing up and Gabe was flying across the valley and he basically got to the hill at the same altitude as me, but not high enough to top land And it was kind of working, but not really. So he was soaring along this hill whilst I was climbing up this this rock And we're literally racing to this turn pointint And he would go up ten meters and then sink out a little bit and I would you know, I was climbing up and it was just like neck and neck. And then eventually the Eventually it kind of switched on and he managed to climb up top land and the race was his And that was a really interesting thing because I was was hiking up and I went from this like elation that I'm going to win to, you know, just rock dirt like I've been beaten at the last, you know, the last minute and actually stopped on the about probablyro a hundred meters vertical from the turnpoint. And I you know, I went down into this real like pit And then I was like, Ben, what are you doing? Like, look at you, you know, look where you are, look what you' achieved. You're going to be second. Like this is and it was a really cool turn pointint for me because I really managed to control my mind and kind of pull myself out of that. and really appreciate where I was And I'm not a mega competitive person. I like to compete. We all do But I don't have that like burning fire that I have to win U and it was like Yeah, it was a really cool point where I f kind of happiness in this moment and then took off and then was just so stoked to, you know, Yeah, one of my first proper races that I'd finished and flew into the landing. and it was so cool. The coolest thing was to have a Brazilian win. you know, there was two or three of us. I don't know if you know surged. Yeahah, you had surg around on the podcast. He was there too. So we had a few foreigners, but it was so cool to have a Brazilian win the race And as you saw, in EXLps gave us just a ball of fight light. know he's such a happy, such a cool guy. and You know, I think he was more stoked for me than he was for winning the race type thing and it was like a really emotional. And we just became became good friends and After the race, we we were chatting and he came to me and he said, you know, Ben, what do you think of exiles And I said, yeah, you know, it's something, you know, it's been something I would love to try do But I was like, but you've got to be good? And And he said to me, You know, do you think it it's achievable? And I said, Yeahah, you know, I think it's doable. But I gave them the usual story of, you know, these guys live in the Alps, they start flying when they fourteen, they know every valley, they know, you know, the usual story that you hear. And And he looked at me and he said, But they're just people have been And I said, What do you mean? He's like, Well, theyre just like you and me And I said sort of yeah, okay, who's this guy, but you know, good point. And then Yeah, and then we just sort of became friends and I we actually went to Dubai. So part one of the one of the for winning that edition of the Transcopicaba of the race was an entry to the UAE I confying So Gabe went there And then I actually went to they had like a fun section, a little small race on the side. So I went again, just trying to do as much as I could went into that and we kind of spent a lot of time in Dubai and really got chatting about ExLes And he just had this crazy drive that Yeah, you know, we We know different. and you know if we put in the work and we put in the hours, we can do it And so I was becauseusen' he hadn't flown in the Alps, right? Noemberbor. Never And it And it hadd been flying, I mean, at that point, you know, it'd been flying two two years, three years And he was already on a o L GT He's just yeah, just completely obsessed with it. And so I said to him, I said, get well, let' let's enter XPia. you know, I'm entering. come do it. let's do it together. So and he did super well at EXPere. you know, he actually led EXPia for the first I think three days. And and then slowed down a bit U Yeah. so that was kind of kind of how we started and and I think It's It's really cool because We both is an engineer too, I'm also an engineer, and we both kind of are veryy analytical And like technology. and we also think in You know, whenever we talk and ideas about roots and ideas about flying, we speak the same language and which I, you know I think really helps that we both looking at options and we both really trust each other on decisions Which is ye. Did you guys spend any time scouting before the race or was it literally just hunt and cal and go No, I u I had about two weeks two, three weeks before before the race with them So I went out in my van, he was in his and his girlfriend, Katy. she was with us too And we sort of cruised around, you know, we went to Morano and really had fun just like scouting. doing cool flights Yeah, it was a really, really fun, fun week or couple of weeks together and then you know doing all the prep. I mean, you know, the prep work for XLps there's loads to do And also not being from there. We didn't have base. so you know, we phoned a friend, Maurice Coler you know, he helped us stick the stickers on the wing and we're kind of all over the show. getting things ready U Yeah And we did a lot of, you know, gabes super organized and we did a lot of Not so much scout. we did go to places in scout But we did a lot of work on onnline on Google Earth And he uses Osman for hiking and really looked at a lot of rootes and had prettyretty much three quarters of the race analyzed on Google Earth An different So not we never had set routes But we had option A, option B and option C, you know, pulled from skyways, this kind of thing, but works, where this stuff works, what are the lines guys are flying You know, we wanted to do the whole race, but we ran out of time with the prep. and I mean, I so given the given the shortness of time in his flying career. I mean, if you'd only been flying a couple years when you met him, I mean, he hasn't he hasn't There's no chance that he's done a ton of racing or What do you chalk up just that he was, I mean, because this this race, I mean, other than day two The weather was phenomenal. Yeah which typically would support, you know, really good racing pilots Yeah. But he was right in there. I mean, every day was top three five. He was just he was smoking along with the best some of the best pilots in the world Yeah from a race to goal. I mean, you know, Aon Duragotti and Krigel and Yeah. I mean those guys know how to fly fast. What what was it what was he doing that was so I mean, it was from an outside perspective, it was pure magic.. just I just kept waiting for the d for the ball to drop. Yeah some point this guy's going to make a catastrophic mistake Yeah and blow it. So but he never did. I mean, he got hurt. Yeah, But he never really did. He was in there right till the end. Yeah. So I think there's a few things, you know, after both him and I really saw the value in competition flying you know, we both went, you know, okay, there's You got to learn how to fly fast So he did do between EXpere and EX Alps, he did do some comps in Brazil Um Yeahes and You know, I mean you know in two years, I don't know how many hours he did, but you're probably up at like four, five hundred hours per year type thing. You know's really pushing hard. A time He's really good in the light stuff and the early stuff. So he learned to fly in the south of Brazil, which is like very different to what we all know Brazil for And it's really like light marginal conditions, of an overcast, small hill. so you take off and you're sitting in in you know point two of a climb where Age is just trying to get up. So he's really good at that. And I think that really helps him that he can start early And he can kind of hang around and be really confident that when It's not It's not really working. He can just hang in there until things start working. And then he' to be super patient Super patient ye And then You know, I think he just does a lot of studying and understands lines and understands you know, the science behind it. And you know, he was always, you know, we were talking flat out. I mean, we were on Zelo and I and we used Beret and I had Beret on my laptop and My girlfriend at the time was actually driving the car poor thing because I don't think I spoke once to her. I was just fixated on live tracking, Ber a live wind. And I was chatting in his ear the whole time I said, Gabe, I'm not going to tell you what to do. And this actually came from Tom D Dolado And he said, you know, there's such a difference between being in the sky and being on the ground, and you're not up there, you don't know what's going on up there. Sure you can feed information, but ultimately the pilot knows what's going on And I really kind of gravitated towards that. So I said to Gabe, I'm not going to tell you what to do unless you specifically ask me So if you say to me, Ben, I'm stuck, I've got no idea And we had one moment like that Then I will step in and I willll say, yeah, mate, okay, fly here, you know, I'll send you we also used with CU. you know, we had CU Coud running so I could send him a track loog if needed to be just uploaded straight into it U, But I was feeding him as much information as I could with the idea that if I arm him with as much information about what other pilots are doing what w' working? what are live wind conditions? what are possible routes, not what you should take He then has this arsenal of information that he then freezes his mind and he can go right makes the most sense I'm going there or I'm flying that line and Yeah, it seemed to be a recipe that that just worked. you know, he he said he constantly said to me You know, in those first days, yeah, we're flying fast, but The gaggle' not fast. He's like, as long as you stay with a gaggle you can stay with it and You know, he really used the gaggle a lot. to You know, he didn't really push out too much. you know, he was really letting other pilots find the climbs and then he was just and and there were a few times I was like, oh, it kind of slipping away. And then, you know, he was just perfectly poised where really almost controlling the gaggle, if you like And super disciplined. Yeah. ye. So I mean, he's I there's not a secret recipe that I can tell you, you know, I He, I think it's a combination of of things and I think we worked really well together and I know he thinks the same U And yeah, I think it's, you know, I don't take credit for what he does. I think he's an incredible pilot. and he but I think having a combination where you work well together really helps and And yeah If you guys thought at all, I I imagine, you know, in the kind of debrief after the race, you must have talked about what worked, you know, what what maybe didn't and what you can improve. I'm wondering where expectation really landed here is in some ways In some ways, I never did as well as I did my first race because I was just like you, I came into my first race going before I got to camp, before I got to that, you know, that kind of pre race week when there's just so much stuff going on Before I got there, I literally didn't know if I was just going to be eliminated first.ew I didn't know where I belonged. And fitness was was different back then. You know now everybody's pretty fit. But in twenty fifteen, I when I showed up my first kind of boost of confidence was Okay, half of these people I don't have to worry about because they're not trained as well as I am. I just I knew that if if it became a ground race or we had some bad weather, I knew I was okay. I had trained hard enough. So that that was one boost. And then we had the prologue and I did really well. I was third in the prologue and that and it was and that was a proper flying race and and so then So that boosted it. But without those two kind of points of contact, I just had no cl And and I still had no clue. I was still just who, where's it going to come? But that allowed me to be a pilot in the race. What I mean by that is I just kept flying the sky. I just kept doing what I knew how to do and I didn't worry nearly as much as I did after that, you know, in twenty seventeen onwards and twenty fifteen, it was just I was just having fun. Yeah. and I didn't have any expectations. and that I flew better than I ever did again because in the in the in the subsequent races, suddenly I had a place, you know, I made Monaco in my first one. I was eight. I thought God I could actually do really well in this race and then that blew it for me because then it was I could never get back in that just free expectations just Do your thing and have fun. Yeah. And it seemed like that's what Gabe was really nailing. Yeah. I'm wondering now how does he take that same mindset Is he going to do it again? Yeahep, yeah, for sure. I mean, he's he's in in. So how does he take that same mindset to the next one? Yeah you know I'ing one. I think something that You know, I know Tarkquin really noticed in interviewing us and stuff and was was happy and how stoked he is and I I think that's a bit of a Brazilian thing or a South American thing. It's quite interesting there. You know I always tell people you can't buy a small beer in Brazil. When you go there, it's always a big beer and it comes with four glasses. and you know everyone shares and When you hike there, you know where we go, it's really not tourist place. I stick out like a sore thumb But everyone's so friendly. somehow these people know my name, you know, you know, I really I'm not a high level or high profile athlete you know, I'm just some random South African dude who loves the sport. And Yeah, you know, it's you walk past these houses and everyone's in the in the garden and there's fifty people having, you know their version of a ba on a Sunday And so life is life is tough, you know there's a lot of poverty but people are really happy And you watch you watch Gabe when he races and he's running through the town and he's greeting, you know, every person, the old lady who's walking a dog to the little kids, you know, people cheer him and he stops and says hello, he's just He's in this like state of wow, you know, and I have some voice notes from him, you know, from Zillo. And you can just hear I'll try to dig them out and send them to you. you know, how happy he is and how much he's just loving being out there. And and I think you're right as soon as you stop worrying too much, you know, ultimately, why are we doing this?? You know, we're not going to make you win massive money, you know, you win a trophy at the end. So why are we there? And Him and I both have the same mentality of We're there for the love of it. We're there to get to cool places to have cool adventures and I think if you can hang on to that, the Yeah. The performance side comes naturally because in order to be there, you've got to be good. You know It's like a side effect of itead of the purpose of it. Yeah Yeah Awesome A that you maybe just answered that a little bit there. But you know, I think from the outside perspective, this being your first one you know, there was a huge drama on social media about, you know, this has just become gladiators, you know, way too much risk. And You might have heard this show. I did with Tom Dorero, you know, those of us who have a long You know have been with it for a long time. There was no more risk. I mean, if anything, there was less risk in this one because the weather was so good. I mean, day two is dicey but sometimes it's eight days of that kind of weather Yeah you know, it it's no more risk. It's just social media, you know, making things look bad And you know, every team's got a media person or may not at every most of them. So there's just there's just a lot more content going out there Yeah. And there's a lot more armchair sailors. There's just a ton of people watching it and they have opinions and my opinion is if you're not going competing, you don't get to have an opinion Yeah you but that's my opinion. But I'm just curious from many people's perspective, the question of why hangs really big. You sleep exhaustion, cost wear and tear on the body training commitment. that I mean, there's so much. And of course the risk. Yeah It's a miracle that no one has died doing this race. Yeah. Yeah, you know, knock on wood. but But you know, you've done it. Youve you've competed. You've done a bunch of racing, you've done the support You know, you just said the event, but Why What is the ultimate, what keeps bringing you back? Why is all of this worth it U yeah, it's an interesting one. You know, for me, it's it's the I think it's the equation And to explain that you know, this this concept of it takes, you know In me trying to get to Expere, I look at the places I went that I would never have gone to. You know, why would I go to these places for any other reason And when you start, I mean, to give an idea I do born to fiveive the last three I did and I always do it with my dad And he flies out from South Africa and it's been a real like learning process together. and it's really cool because it's our time together and it's our little thing. and He drives a van and eats Panoo chocolas all day and we race around borns And in the one before before XPR actually I just received my Zo light too which I was going to do XP here with And I hiked up and On the first launch from the start, hiked up to the first launch, I was ret pretty fit, you know, I wasn't at the front, but I was in the kind of front pack. threw my wing out, you know was on, pulled it up and you know I hadn't really laid it out properly. And as I pulled it up, the wingtip kind of came out quarter rock and literally I mean, the thing had like five hours on it ripped the whole wing tip off And and I sat there. I mean I pretty much started crying and I was just like, what what the hell, you know and phone my dad, you know, and he had flown all the way out from South Africa And I said you know, while the race is over, you know, what do we do? And sort of down down the hill or upset with myself and then kind of shook that off And then I went right, I've got a, you know, I had it my old wing was was at a guy's house and he was actually flying cross country. so I phoned him I was like, Hey, any chance I can get my wing? He was like, I'm flying, but like my wife will be there in an hour and she can open the door So I phone my dad sent in there, phone the organizers You know, they were like, yeah, sure, you know, soop it up, no problem and then started hiking and I was literally at the back of the whole everyone and it was on and it was a cracking day and I was hiking and I still had my torn wing. So I hiked the whole first day with my torn wing Didn't fly and then And then the second day swap wings took off met up actually with a friend of mine who was racing, but he was a bit back and we had an epic flight together and then Long story short, you know, stuffed it up again, ended up doing a big hike than right at the back by Grand Bernard. in shorts and t shirt and it started snowing and I sat up in the little ski hut there. But Eventually I actually made it to the finish and you know, I was whatever eightieth to cross the line, but I finished with half an hour S the finish And and I'd And it was, you know, I put a post on my Instagram saying, you know, the sport tests you like nothing else in the world. U you know, and it takes you to the darkest places and and you know, you do things you never thought you would do, But when you when you piece it all together and it works The results and the outcome of it are so good It's there's just nothing like it in the world And I think it's that. it's when, you know, you go through all these hardships and you're always learning, but when you get it right and You know, you you putull off things that You shouldn't be flying now. know it's not working, but somehow it works and you have these amazing flights It's Yeah, there's something really special about it and that's true where you You find yourself in places having flights or being in spots where I'm constantly going, There's no way I would be here standing on this snow, getting ready to launch. at six AM and there's all this morning glory below me. I can't see anything down at the bottom of the valleys. and I'm gonna to go paraglass. Yeah Yeah. This is so cool this is so cool. There's so many moments like that that are really they're really precious. Yeah So he's going to do it again. You're still racing. you're doing the media this year for XPer. Yeah. So that that'll be a completely different role Curious for this next exXOps are you guys already in planning mode? How does what does the next kind of eighteen months look like for you? So yeah, I mean I mean, Gabe is pretty much gone Try pro athlete if you like. I mean, here' quite an amazing story, you know I think he sold his car to go to Expeere and pretty much nearly sold his car to go to Ex Alps and then managed to find some sponsorship. So he I mean he's so committed to it and and Yeahah. And you know, we haven't really spoken much about the next Eedition Whenever we do speak about it, he says, Ben, you're my brother and I need you there with me. So you know if he wants me back, I'll be there. You know we have so much unfinished work to do there. It would be super cool to finish that race. Yeah, it's also on my cards. I you know, I toss and turn with it. half of me goes, it's huge money, it's huge training, it's huge commitment for the race and should I rather just go do a cool adventure in New Zealand or something? But then it's also the race. and you know, I always come back to the fact that I would really love to have a shot at it. likeike I would really, you know, I didn't finish Eakespeare. I was I got to the last turn point And Yeah, I'd love to have a. It's funny when you do these things and if you don't finish you want to go back and there's something that's left undone. And So littleittle tantnalizing morsel Yeah Yeah I mean, we have spoken, you know, we reviewed This exls And one thing we really came up with was on the support side, it is huge work and how our team worked was I was kind of So we only wanted one person in comms with Gabe And the reason for that was to not not have to, you know just two of you to agree on the same thing as a lot and you have more input You know I think there comes a point very quickly where it's just too much. So We very much identified that there's a a role of the direct person the direct supporter with the athlette. And then there's also this role of the team manager. and I was kind of the team leader, if you like. And it's just way too much because youre trying to and I probably didn't do a very good job as team leader because I was so fixated on Gabe and helping him But you're trying to orchestrate, you know you've got two vans, four, five people media team and you're trying to orchestrate this this craz crazinginess through the mountains. and it's far when it's good, you know, we I mean When Gabe got to Mirano, we were like two hours behind him here. And I was phoning, trying to organize them via Ferrt a kid. it was chaos But so we've really identified that you need someone to manage the team, manage the logistics, manage all of that And then you need someone who's actually mind is not involved in any of that at all. and his mind is on racing And that person is very critical with how they work with the athlete Be I think that relationship really has a big effect on how well you perform What about just less people U, you know, I mean, it has really changed. you know, back in the day it's most teams had two people and know, we started seeing Paul and Tom and suddenly they had five and three vans and you're going who Yeah that's a lot to manage. Yeah But it's it really is there's a balance here isn't it? I mean, I don't where the fulcrum exactly lies. Yeah, big time I think It's interesting because Having two vans is really helpful if you manage it And and But then it means two of everything, but it means you can daisy change. So you know you can send people ahead And you know I was always doing the morning hike with Gabe because it was a really good time for me to offload what I'd looked at through the night, all the weather, all of the route options, what our thinking was for the day whilst we had an hour and a half hike up to launch U But then I then I'm then I'm behind,? because once he's off, he's off So I had a little ultra like five and then I'd zoot down into the valley another van that I could send ahead for the in case he does a glide and hike again or those type of scenarios really got us out of trouble in times when we needed it because I was still an hour, two hours behind And when it's flying that fast, I mean, yeah, it's so hard to keep even with two vans and people going ahead But it's a whole other logistical nightmare, know, And and you're trying to then and that's why I say you need that separation or you need sry that organizer who's really just playing that along U But I think you can overdo it. you know, there were teams at this edition, I think that had like seven supporters and it's so much, you know to orchestrate all of that, it iss just so much work and you end up wasting a lot of resources, I think, because you just have people everywhere So it is the team its it's a really interesting Dynamic. it's really an interesting thing to manage and it's tough because you really have way less sleep than the athletes peopleople are there, you know, on holiday or, you know, it's a time off and, you know you're driving a car all day. It's a lot of the time it it's not that fun. You know, you've yeah, you've got to find find the good times and you do. I mean, we had Gab and I and the whole team had some absolute magical times you know, in these mountains and But yeah, I think it's I think there's a lot to be said for a small team No. My answer to, you know, why keep doing it again is it's the most fun you can have in the world. Yeah. I don't know I've never lived as sharply as I have during those campaigns. I mean, the bigivy stuff that I've done, you know Canada and Alaskas those were those are brilliant and they're and it's nice to not have a race component and No you're all in. well, but It's pretty fun going to war Yeah your buds. Yeah. pretty neat Yeah U Ben, thanks so much, man. what a blast. I could ask you So many questions about these races because they're it's I just find it all incredibly fascinating and so much fun. And you know, you've got a really unique perspective, but thanks for sharing these stories. appppreciate you, man. Yeahep thanks. thanks. thanks very much for having me. One thing I want to say just before I go is It's something I actually came into my mind last just after we spoke and It's linked with why we do this. but I'm always amazed at how much you can push your body in the sport. And it's funny story again from Brazil when I was racing there, the first day, before the race, I'd given one of the organizers a lift up onene of the hills and we were flying and stuff And she only speaks Portuguese, but she followed me on Instagram And, you know, I've never done a marathon, you know, I've reallyally, you know, I wasn't Big athlete, you know I ran and I was fit, but I'd never done any crazy stuff And I was running and we did seventy two ks and I was spent and it was the last day. And she messaged me and was like, o wow youre doing so, blah, blah, blah And she said, remember why Google translated, but she said, remember your body is stronger than your mind And I sort of Okay And then I was hiking the next day and whenever I got tied, this little voice just came into my head saying, yourour body is stronger than your mind And I've kind of adapted that to your body is stronger than your mind can ever imagine it will be and A lot of people ask me, you know, my training regime' a nightmare. I have three months of training and then I have three months on a boat doing absolutely nothing But somehow I still managed to go and run seventy Ks and then the next day run another fifty Ks. you know Now I shouldn't be able to do this. And I think The sport teaches you so much about You your mind and your body. And yeah, that's my little my little motive that keeps me running Yeah, that that is a remarkable thing as what you know, especially if you have done the training, then it's not it's surprising how not painful it is too. I mean, there's there's pain, but you're you're you're in this state in a sense of, you know, part of that, I think is flow, but you're also in this state of euphoria and that you there are days where You know, it was one day that was like twenty two thousand feet vertical in one of my races where you're just going, this is This is actually is not possible. Yeah. you cannot do this. On paper I'm not killing Journeay and I'm doing something that even he would find and youre and you're fine. And you're going do it the next day Yeah And then you're going to do it the next day. You know, your feet look like somebody's hit them with hammers it's just it's absolutely mind boggling You know, my blisters were so bad in twenty fifteen that there were bllisters on top of bllisters on top of bllister. Aaron Durgotti, I watched him tear the bottom of his feet off Yeah at the end of day two. I mean, he just ripped them off. Yeah. And it was just kind of bloody and mess and you keep going. Oh, it's awesome. Yeah. It is awesome. It's really remarkable Well, cool. Well yeah, man, you've left me in smiles. I'll be watching the EXPere closely. Good luck with documenting all of that. That's a whole other trip. It's fun. You'll love it. It's a blast. And it's pretty neat. It's kind of it's studying from a totally different perspective. I've learned a ton. I almost wish I would have done that before my first race, I've learned a ton just watching these teams. and You see a lot of a lot of different approaches as well. you know, you see the lighthearted approach and the serious approach and Yeah, it's funine. You learn a time, you have a blast Awesome. Thanks Yava. I'm really looking forward to it and And hopefully hopefully I can do somewhere near as good a job as you guys do And yeah, hopefully do some cool stuff and grow the sport, you know Thank you for having me on here. It really is a huge privilege to on the mayhem and to chat to you and thoroughly enjoyed it. So really appreciate it. Thankks for the chat Cheers Bud, talk to soon If find that Cloud Bed may invaluable, you can support it in a lot of different ways. All of them incredibly important to keep this show going Give us a rating on whatever platform you listen to. You can blog about it on your website or share it on social media. 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