Training Hills and Simulator Practice

He, Welcome to another episode of the Cloud Base Mayhem. I have been very inspired lately to get more hang gliders on the show. We have been missing a lot of that content over the years and I always threaten and I never do. So I reached out to my good buddy, who my wife and I and Fallon at the time was not even two. before the twenty nineteen exX Alps stayed with him just outside of Milan And a longt timee hang glider and commercial pilot. so I reached out to him recently and he said hi, and hey, throw me a whole slew of names, then I'm going to get them on the show. So we've got Manfred and Jeremy and way we did the one with Christian, but Alex Plooner and a bunch of others, he gave me some really good recommendations. So we're going be putting some hang gliding content here in show over the next few months and hopefully forever after. But my first one to drop is today with Erica Klein. Erica used to be used to work with Uhpa and she's been flying for over fifteen years. and she's had a very different approach. it's been a nice, slow, easy progression, a lot of fun. She does a ton of kind of I guess you call it hanglighting waga on the dunes. She's got a huge social media presence She puts out a ton of content and a lot of videos that are watched by literally millions of eyeballs. So she's done very well there. but is you know not one who has chased the scary and done a ton of competition flying and big long distance. She just recently got into a little bit of topless flying after all these years and recently got into sports class comps But she's just had a really nice progression, really loves it, keeps her normal day job Monday through Friday and goes flying whenever she can on the weekends. And her perspective was really cool. She talked a lot about reached out to me about, you, progressing at your own pace and the tools we can use, including cameras and video analysis and simulators to learn and books, podcasts and all the resources that are out there. She's also an instructor so she's got some background in teaching. We had a lot of fun with misconceptions between hang gliders and paragliders. A little about shortpack gliders, which we heard about recently on the show and the need for these shortpack gliders to be know something you can put in the car and put together really quick and so just more accessible to more people hike and fly with hang gliders and that's all pretty cool stuff. So yeah, we had a lot of fun with this and then we closed with her telling me about. I didn't even know this was possible You can hang glide over the summer very specific hours in Yosemite. It's the only national park that allows free flight. and it's only hang gliders. you gotta be in H four. You can find out about that. By the time this show hits, it'll be open certain hours of the day. It's Yosemitehg dot org comm dot So check that out and check out Erica's many, many awesome videos And enjoy this show. Cheers Wlcome to the Mayhem. I really appreciate you reaching out a few months ago about Pete, We're working on that one. And that's geared me up for a whole series of talks with Hang gliders, which is going to be awesome because I have we have not done enough and I'm always saying, I need to do more, need to do more, but justust this morning hooked up with Manfred and Jeremy who's over at the Euros. He's got a bad infection going on or something. So we'll do that later, but it's anyway, we'll do a lot more of these, which will be I know very fun for our audience. and I've had a really good time watching some of your videos. You're quite the content creator And so and you were on this list of people that reached out and said, hey, we, you know, we need to get so and so on the show and these folks and you were on there. So it's great to talk to you and it's great to have you on the show. And thanks for thanks for your time. Yeah, thanks so much for having me. Yeah, you sent me a cool list. Well, where are you? asked if we should start with that. Wh whereere are you at Southern California based Los Angeles area. Okay and you're Your big thing, I mean, you did a lot of things, but your big thing is dune flying. Where do you go to fly dunes? So our school windsports, we have a site at Dockweiler Beach. That's our training hill. So it's the thirty foot hill. It's about the usable part of it for flying is about three hundred feet long, and we just love just li fine there Cool. You know, I did this chat with Bonnie Hobson who flies up at Muscle Rocks a while back and You know, I'm a I really like XE. I really like bigig distance. So it was cool for me to, you know, I when I first cut my teeth when I first got my very first license of P two and I was two thousand three, two thousand four. Uh, you know, I I just lo that soaring and peaceful side of things and now you know, I fly in Sun Valley. It's I wouldn't say it's very often very peaceful It keeps me really engaged and I was I was kind of fascinated with how she keeps really engaged with I guess what would be more mellow flying. Would Would that be dune flying, more relaxed, more mellow? How do you stay engaged Definitely it's usually more mellow. You hope it's more mellow. Sometimes it gets not and that can be scary. I've just always loved doing flying. I mean, so I learned at Docweiler back when I started like nineteen years ago and I've just been flying it ever since when I'm here. It's not soorable that often. People think since I post videos that we get wind all the time, we don't. It's actually a pretty rare experience, I would say, onn average, it's soorable maybe once every two weeks. And then then I have to actually like you know be able to go there and it not be a workday and all this stuff. So So we don't actually get to soar it that often. Depends on the season too. Like sometimes it's better I've always just loved it. I think one of the really unique things about Dock Craler and that does keep me in en caged is you're not, I mean, if you're just floating twenty feet over the ground and you're just like going back and forth, like, sure, that can get boring. But what we're doing that's really fun is like I like landing on the windsock. I like swooeping down, touching the ground, top landing, taking off again Landing on little challenges. Yeah, like like a sequel. And like there's so many things that like paragliders see these os and they're like, we didn't know hangliders could do this. And I love sharing these videos because it shows like the fun side of hangliding and that hangliders are capable of more than just going fast. L that's fun too. EXI is fun too, but Dune flying is just A completely different experience that you can get doing literally anything else, I think Theres The French call it Waga, right? Is I guess you'd be I hadn't thought of it. You can kind of do the same type of stuff with a hang glider That's really Yeah. and Like like I said, I don't think there's any other aircraft where you can really do that, you know, just takeoff come down again and over and over and over. Just like a bird. And to me, what I love about flyine is being like a bird. And like I said, Exy is fun. I like that too Flying highigh is fun, obbviously, love all of that, but to me, just the Dune plan is very unique How did you get into this? What was the catalyst? was whyy did you start why hang glliding? I mean, that's an interesting one these days. you know there's been a hang gliding has been slowly chipped away just with the ease of packing with paragliders and stuff, but it does make a lot more sense. They're pretty sexy wings, you're prone, you know, there's a reason that we started with this Yeah, I saw a picture of a hangliter in a book when I was ten and I just I really wanted to do it. I made my parents for years. They were like, no, no, no. And then One day my grandpa came to visit and I told him I wanted to hang gllad he was like, I'll take you tomorrow, which he didn't do. But he just reminded my mom that like, you know, you did all this stuff like skiing, windsurfing, like You should let her hang glide. So I started the summer before my senior year of high school. so that was twenty seven Where you are now? whereere you in LA. back then as well? Is that where you're from? Yeah, I learn at the same place I talk about I where we still teach Okay. And are you an instructor now I am. yeah. I became an instructor in college. I don't teach that much So the funny thing is I started and then I went to college on the East Coast. So I didn't really get to fly that much my first like actually many years of flying, but my mom saw how much fun I was having, even though you, she hadn't let me hang glide, but she was like, I want to start too So she started about a year after I did when she was fifty and she still flies and she's an instructor too So, that is so cool Yeah, so we fly a lot together and it's a lot of fun. And she likes watching my flights so and I fly and I go on like Wiland do and to have like the live track and she l watchches those 's so cool. you've got some cool thoughts about getting into the sport but also progression. You know, you really took your time and U, this is I remember when I got in the sport about the same time in two thousand three, two thousand four, You know, it was You would meet people that were on hot gliders, so I guess in Hang gliding that'd be topless then. But it would take a decade. You know, people would you'd meet people other in paragliding, you're flying a two, three or an E andD, you know, more of a kind of a two liner, hotter glider. But you wouldn't, you know, as you were learning, it's just like that that was That was something way off in a distance. That was something that you, you might do. and you know compompeting in a World Cup, it would just whoa, these are legends. you may never get there. It just seemed It was a big reach and now People are getting there in two years, which is it's a credit to the gear, of course, but also makes you a little nervous that you might be skipping some very important steps there. but I'm a paraglider, I'm not hang glider. T us about that and how does that Why did you choose to do it that way What's worked for you? What do you teach Yes. I feel like it's really interesting right now watching the progression of paragliding because I think and I talk to people about this, how there's kind of a lot of mirroring of how hangliding progressed. Like for a while, people were on these like much harder wings and then they started making easier once again. and I think in hang lightighting, you know for a while too, there was a lot of external pressure to progress quickly and to go to toppless and to, you know no no king posts. so it's like the top performance, like race gliders And I think there's less of that now in what I'm seeing. There's still external pressure like if you're flying just a single service falcon, which I flew on for my first like, fifteen years of wine, which is like much longer than most people do But There there isn't I feel quite as much pressure in the community now, but you'll still get that. There are still people who are like you should go up And that should really be up to the pilot. I do wish there wasn't any of that pressure because I don't think it serves the sport. I don't think it really serves anyone And I think I think when we're looking at progression, it should really be about how you're feeling what your goals are. listening to yourself, not not feeling pressured by anyone else H How Was that just intrinsic in you? or did you have a mentor or an instructor that helped you Gide through that Yeah, our instructors here for a while, they're very much focused on just like single service gliders. Like our main instructor at Winsports, he still like pretty much exclusively flies a single service glider and he's flying longer than anyone like above everyone all the time. So he's showing that it can be done, you know and you can have a lot of fun with it I think it's also like I said, like I didn't fly that much my first ten years because I was in High school college, I lived in Japan for a couple of years. I was doing other things and I couldn't fly that much. And I think it's also safer in that case to be on an easier glider, right? Because if you're not super current, then then that's better But againgain, yeah, I think it's It's just deciding when when you're ready and making that decision for yourself because you're the pilot in command, likeike you should be making those choices, not letting anyone else push you into them. H is hang gliding you said before we started that you have a Another job, tellell us what that is, but also is this your work? I mean, I know you've got unbelievable social media presence. make most people in awe, especially for hanglaying. it's awesome. So You've got a lot of people you know, watching your videos and seeing what you're doing Yeah, what's your job? How do you how do you is it is this recreational or is this your profession. It is recreational. I mean, it would be fun to do it full time. It's really hard. even I mean, I think to make it full time as a cont creator, you really need like a lot of views like constantly and making videos. And making videos it takes a long time. It's it's kind of hard for me like I do it, but it does take a while So I do have a full time job. I work at a medical school as like a writer. I'm in marketing communications So that's what I'm doing during the week and then on the weekends I p gl Okay, Are you bi wingle or just hanglighting I started paragliding a few years ago, but I don't post about it and I don't parall that much. I'm just I always mean to, but then I'm too busy hangliding. I'm like, oh I'll land and then I'll go parliding, but then Iand it sunset so then there's no Time to go barry cludding Tell me what you're doing with Wills. So you're you don't work for Will's wing, but you've got something going on with shortpack hang gliders, which is interesting Second time I've heard this term in very little time, we had a guest on recently that is doing some volbiv in Europe with a short backack hang glider. So what are these and what are you doing Yeah. so Okay, so basically There's a lot of talking about how we can grow hangliding. and there's a lot of ideas. And so I worked for UBa for a few years on staff and then I was chair of their Hangling growrowth and Development commommittee. So I've heard a lot of these ideas and a lot of it comes down to, you know, we should make insurance cheaper, we should have more instructors, or we should have more sites, and all those things are kind of outside of our control There's really nothing we can do about them And so what I want to focus on as far as growing the sports sport is things that we can actually do. and meeting the needs of the community So right now with hang gliders, they're not, they're not like the most incommvenunity things like you can put them, you know, on your car wreack, you can drive them around. I met a parallleter pilot once who wass like How do you transfort those? Like do you need a flat bed truck? and like, no, we don't need a flat bed truck to transport a hangladdery. you can just do it on any car That is part of the misconceptions part of it too. but they are still not super convenient. I'll give an example when I bought a car, a used car and then the engine blew up and really I should have just trashed the car, but I ended up getting a new engine for it because I didn't want to build a new hangleter rack. Like I just built the hangleter rack and up I am not building a new hleter rack for this car. But my goodness, we can't be asking people to do this. L this is insane And not that anyone else has to do that, but you get my idea. Sure And So I think also since we want to get younger people into the sport and maybe some of them don't have cars or maybe they don't have a garage to keep their glider in Really, what I think we need is a short pike lider that like fits in a car And you know is light it off, maybe even hike and play at some point but really fits in a car fits in plane because that's the other thing with traveling with hang glidders is it's a huge pain to either coordinate getting your gliders somewhere or trying to borrow or rent a glider somewhere and then you don't know the condition of it or it's hard to find ort want to rent you a glider. So it's just like this would just make the biggest difference, I think in retaining people and also bringing new people to the sport is having the short pack quer. And so this is something that I've been pushing. And I know that it's difficult to make one. You know, if it was easy, it would have been done already. And there is one out there. I know you did that last podcast. There's the Finster W And the issue with it though is I've talked to several people who have them and they take about forty minutes to set up. and that is just long. I know pairrylterers think that takes us an hour to s up over hangle letters. It takes ten minutes, ten, fifteen minutes, and forty minutes is just a really long time so I think what we really need and this is what I've been toooo much barrier to entry there. I mean, for me, I just I hear that and go, no,' not I'm not doing that. I'm not Yeah. And we say like I'm not here not I'm not doing that either, which is why I don't have one. So I've been talking to Bill's Wing about it and a lot of the manufacturers don't seem super interested. They're just like it'll be too difficult or whatever. But I think to make the sport grow containments is really what we need. and I really appreciate it that Will's Wing agrees and it's something that they're now working on is making this kind of short pipelider. So I'm really excited to see how that goes. They don't really have many updates on it yet, but they have kind of announced the idea and that they're working on it. so that's That's been super awesome If you could rub your Crystal Ball, you know, the Europeans are going on right now and, you know, the your your your big names that everybody knows or looks like, you know, they're leading Alex Ponner and Christian Cck and you know, so it's not It's not dead by any means, you know, hang gliding I mean especially when you're in the Alps, you see hang gliders, but it's been You know, it's been dwindling now for decades, right? the statistics show. but You're you're attracting a lot of eyeballs to what you're doing. if you could kind of look out five years. what do you see for handang gliding? what Do you are you optimistic I think depending how I feel or it depends on the day, what I'm seeing or like what people are saying to me or how a video is doing I think there's definitely room for growth. and it's interesting because I talk to paraglider pilots who say that they want to hang glide. I did a whole article for Upop Pilot magazine about Paraglider pilots who started hangliding like after paragliding, why they wanted to do that And I do think there's room for that, especially if we can make this kind of short pipeeladder that makes it more convenient for everyone to do this. And I talked to I've kind of started video in Parlader ps too who tell me that they would hang lightiding if there was this kind of wider So I really think it depends on how it goes with those kind of innovations and drawing people to the sport I also think the kind of videos I make are unique because there's not everyone has a ridge storn site where they can make, you know the kind of videos that I do But I think that making more videos like that that show how accessible Hanglight it can be, that it doesn't have to be fast or scary or whatever, unless you want it to be, but it doesn't have it's not going to attract everyone. I think Hang Gliding has kind of had this marketing issue where everyone's so focused on just the XC and the top gliders And that attracts some people, but it doesn't attract everyone. So if we can have more of different types of videos showing what it is. I think there might be more growth and hopefully that can help, you know, five years down the line to be growing the sport It seems like again, I'm not a hang glider, so I can't speak with any authority here, but what we always hear is that you know Ozone came out with this submarine harness and everybody's on the submarine and now Navk has one and but there was a lot of resistance to this in the community because we just this is what hang gliding did. We can't do this. everybody, you know, where you've got it that's the gear you got to have and you got to spend three thousand five hundred bucks and And then you know as I understand with hang gliding, it was just You had to have the latest and greatest. They're very expensive. you know the topless carbon every, you know, the with all the whistles and bells and it just becomes less and less accessible to more people, you know, it becomes a very elite difficult high barrier to entry, got to have a ton of hours to fly these kind of gliders safely. And it discouraged people, right? I mean, it's pretty easy to understand. You're not buying a pair of shoes. You know, you're buying a fifteen thousand dollars aircraft. so Uh, you know, I love where you're going where hey, you don't need this stuff. You can have a blast on the dune with a falcon Is that what I'm kind of hearing that it's, I don't know. some in some ways, paragliding is moving in that direction as well but we've it's nice because we've got this roadmap that we've seen happen. And wait a minute, if you make this exclusive and expensive, and only available to a smaller portion of the pilot the potential pilots out there, it just becomes diminishing returns Yeah. yeah, that's true. And that's interesting about manufacturing too because I feel like they're often catering to like the top competition pilots, which is great. But not many people are doing that honestly M And it's not that everyone can fly the dunes either. Like I said, there's not really that many sites for it. and it also helps to be you know, unless you're kind of a lighter weight, you do need a lot of wind. and you don't always get those conditions. But I think just showing that these kinds of flying are available that you can do it if you want to, that can help And then I also try to make a lot of landing videos in the mountains that like I never post crash videers. I mean, I pretty much never crash, but I wouldn't post the grad video if I did because I think that there are just too many of those out there and they kind of give the wrong idea. mean I'm a little torn on that because I think you can learn from Crash Iews,ook There are a lot of crash reos out there. So to me, it's more about showing how easy hang glid it can be and no matter you know where you're doing it The landy doesn't have to be scary. You can do it It'll be fine. What What are the misconceptions you wrote this to me in an email? So you fly both. obbviously more of a hang glider, but these are some of this could be pretty funny, I think. What are the misconceptions you know for handang gliders lookingooking at paragliders and vice versa Yeah, ye. there's defitely misconceptions on both sides and it's been really interesting learning to paragliding and kind of learning more about paragliding that things like I definitely didn't know But on the hangleing side first It is amazing to me the number of pryleter pilots you tell me or who are surprised when I tell them that like pangleadterers don't collapse I That's ridiculous. I don't know why I hope these are pretty new pilots. That just seems silly. honestly know, Gavin. like I just I really don't. Okay I mean, it's true like handanglers can very occasionally break like extremely rarely or if you have, you know, if you don't maintain them Or you put it together wrong. L there was a fatality recently where they just didn't put the glider together correctly, unfortunately. But if if you maintain it and you do your proper pre flight it is extremely unlikely that your handangleer is going to break. And I still don't even call that a collapse or deflation because it's like if your paraglider broke, like if a fing just snapped or something. Like you wouldn't call that a deflation. That would be like your wing broke So it's the same thing. Either way, I would say, you know, hanglers don't collapse So that's a first one. I would really love if all the parallters knew that. The second one is a lot of parallletterers think that hanglers take an hour to set up They don't. They take about ten to fifteen minutes, I think I mentioned. sureure. if you're you know, talking to your friend and just like leaving your lighter there and then coming back to it, like sure that can take an hour. But if you're just setting it up ten minutes Other thing, I think you mentioned cost A lot of paragletterers think that I've talked to seem to think that hangleters cost way more than paragletterers do And I think that's not true. I mean, sure, if you're going for like the top of the line carbon fiber or whatever, yeah, it'll be expensive. But there's also a lot of used tank gliders and handang gliders last a really long time. So when I started nineteen years ago, I bought a used glider And I it was already used of the time. I flew it for nineteen years. I just sold it to another new pilot who's still flying it. It's still fine. That's awesome. Yeah. And so you can find use tank letters that are perfectly airworthy for, one thousand dollars, fif thousandteen hundred dollars, sometimes even less Even the new ones are, I think they're like five to six thousand for like a beginner wing, which I think is pretty comparable to par of butters, or not a lot more And wouldn't you wouldn't you be able to just resale a hang glider? I mean, you don't need the whole, I mean, can't you just put a new canopy on it You can do that too. It is probably about like half the cost. Okay. So it's not still Yeah, you can do that. People do that, especially if they mar the sale or something I mean, paragliders just that's not a thing. You can realign them, but you can't you can't just replace the fabric. you know, you're just you're in for a new wing. you know, so you can you can burn through a wing easily in a year. You know, if you're if you're flying three hundred hours or two hundred hours,, you know, you can you can go through them pretty quick. So yeah, that's that sounds cheaper actually Yeah, I think it can be. I mean, I guess top pilots will want a new wing every year or whatever, But but if you're not that, then You can fly your wing for a while A couple more on the misconceptions, Paragliders think pang glers is way a lot. I don't know how much they think they weigh, but the beginner oness weigh around fifty pounds, the really high performance oneess weigh about seventy five You know, still more than a pair letter, but it's not like, it's not super hard to pick up That's not that much different. Yeah Sure Yeah. Okay. Yeah. and and their're balanced. And also if you're standing there and the wind is blowing, they don't weigh anything because they're flying e. Yeah, exactly ool And then I guess the last big one is paraglidterers since stalling is like such a big deal for you guys. I guess they think the same is true for hang gliders. We'll have new students install their glider on like their first few flights on purpose. If you have ground clearance, it's not a big deal. they will, you know the nose will drop, it'll recover on its own. That's all built in. So Obviously falling at the ground, you know, stalling nearre an obstacle, that can be bad. but If're in the air, it's really not a problem. What about the landing? You know what I see I see really hot pilots down in Vi do the whole ground effect where they're coming in at a zillion miles an hour. man, it looks cool. It looks looks so fun and they'll just go and go and go and go and go. But I think that's one of the things, you know, seeing that whole, you know kind of pitch up at the end and man, if you screw that up ten feet off the ground, you're hanging underneath this big, heavy thing Is that just something you just figure that out and it's no that's always for me kind of whoa. Jad, man, that looks. I mean, I'm fifty four. I don't I don't want to hit the ground from ten feet off. It's gonna to hurt For sure I mean, one thing about that is speed is safety. and in Hangliding, you know, we have this pitch control. we can get a lot of speed and I think That's a little off putty maybe for pair of letters, but Hving having that speed, that's actually a really good thing. It's when the pilots when hangler pilots come in slow and like mushing to the ground, that's when things are really going to go wrong. If they're getting that long ground effect like ground skin, that's that's really're safe Yeah A example. Yeah. pressurized canopy. I mean that for us, that would be obviously you're not pressurizing your canopy, but it's the same thing. You know, we talk about that all the time. peopleople get especially coastal pilots who are used to ridge soaring and not moving very fast because there's quite a bit of wind and then you put them in the mountains and they relate they it hasn't hit the synapses quite, you know, And so they they're not traveling as fast and they're very close to collapse because they don't have the air spepeed, you know, so they don't have a very pressurized glider and that's, you know, like you you're talking about, you can just spin in or stall in And you think you're fine because you've been flying at the coast and you're barely moving. So you You got to make that adaption when you go somewhere else where you're not you're not ridge soaring anymore. you're just flying than air sure. And then with what you mentioned with the like flaring too early or whatever balloning ten feet up That can happen. that can be scary. I think a lot of that is just learning to feel the glider and you can really feel it. You do practice And that's not really an issue. Like the only time I've boomed up ballooned up like that recently has been on purpose because I wanted to land on the spot, which is stupid, Like don't do that. But in general, it doesn't really happen if you are really in tune with your gladder and feeling it. But something I like to tell people is if that's something they're worried about is often maybe not so in Vi because it's higher altitude, so it's a little bit harder. But if especially if you have wind or if you're at a lower altitude You can run out your landing and a lot of people don't like this. Like I'll post run out landings on the internet and people will be like, why didn't you flare and all this stuff? And This is another thing that I would love if the culture could just shift away from this a little bit. But runout landings are a completely valid way to land and they can be safer. So when I transitioned up to like a UTu, which is a kind of high intermediate glider, and then I've also started flying topless gliders a little bit All my first landings, I did run out landings because I wasn't sure about the flare timing. And It's a safe way to land If you're and also if like your wings aren't level, you should be doing a run landing. Like you can't really flare if your wings aren't level So I feel that doing that lets you kind of start to feel the flare timing. and after I did that a few times, I felt confident and then I was able to flare it just fine So that's the way to kind of work towards it Hm What about misconceptions from the other side of the fence? Yeah, I think on the hangletitter side, I think hangliders think that paragleters are just collapsing all the time every day and you guys are just throwing reserves all over the place. And that's not the case. It does happen sometimes, but I think it's not as much as we think. And honestly, I'll be flying in crazy conditions and I'll be getting thrown around on the hangleter, and then I'll see a paraglider and they're actually doing just fine And it's actually pretty amazing, I think how much That's progressed So defefinitely a lot better than hanglers often think it is I think another thing is before I started paragleting, I thought kiting was just super safe, like nothing can go wrong because when you'reround ground handling a hanglider, that's pretty much the case. I think The worst thing that can really happen ground handandling in a hang glider, if you're not on launch, if you're just you know somewhere on the flatground is maybe you'll get flipped over, which isn't even very likely, but maybe that'll happen And that's not bad. You just flip the glutter back over. usually it's fine and then you just, you go on with your day. But with kiting, I've learned you know you can get plucked, you can get dragged, all this stuff can happen, especially in higher winds. So you do kind of need more, I think knowledge than handank letterers might assume. Hm U Hanglighters often think that, you know paragliders just still evol very slow, very low performance. when now there's been so much growth in that area. The paraclites are amazing. watchatching them fly in like these really high winds, it's incredible, honestly I know some of the recordsain s set on Paraclid two is just just amazing. So that's an outdated assumption I don't know if you saw this, but Antoine Gerard just put up a four hundred K FAI in Pakistan recently's in the big stuff. That is crazy. Yeah, that's amazing. That's a big flight Any handanglider who's like, oh pair blladers is just low and they can't go anywhere is like ately No right. I think the last one is before I started Paraglidia. when I talked to other Hanglider pilots too I think a lot of us have no idea that parryletterers use weighthift, Like we think they just pull the brakes A So that was kind of an interesting thing to learn and it also is helpful for when we're flying together because if you see someone kind of like lean to the side before their hands even move, like you know which way they're going to turn. So I think they're signaling what they're doing Yeah you exact So I think that's important one for flying together. Yeah Yeah, because we don't like to get waked by you guys. That's that's I don't like to get behind a hang glider. They can there'ss there's quite a bit of air moving back there. you know, like a tandem parag glider same thing is, you know, I'm always a little more wary when I'm behind a tandem parag gllider or around a tandem per. They can really upset the airflow quite a bit more than a solo wing I was on a low day at Tory and there was this can of Paraglider doing wingovers And it was so annoying and like just difficult because the wake from that and I'm already like really close to the cliff on my handang glider and that was not fun. So yeah, wake from it's not fun. But that's one other thing about flying together is parigtterers can turn left and right much faster, but hletterers can go up and or down, I would say, mainly down, much faster. Yeah. They can really speed up. Yeah, we can die. We can dive underneath, but we won't be able to turn left and right quite as fast because there's more of a d. Right. So when you're thermaling together, these are good things to be aware of. I don't know. what what is your sense? I think in the beginning from, you know, the stories I hear, it was a little bit. Snowboarding skiing in the beginning, you know, those guys those guys. I feel like that's really a thing anymore. And what do what do you feel? I've been I feel like in general, when we see hang gliders, we're just stoked. We're really impressed and we just think they look cool and they fly great and they're amazing aircraft. and You know, unfortunately, you know, looking at you, that you're young in your sport and you know, I think unfortunately, there's's just You know, a lot of the really good hang gliders are getting up there., But it's, but it seems pretty friendly. Would you agree with that It really depends on who it is. I think I think for there's a lot of hangliter pilots now who fly both and they tend to be a lot more friendly, but the hangler pilots who don't still tend to be kind of annoyed. I think a lot of the reason for that is just that Paraglitterers have so many misconceptions about hang glitterers and hearing that all the time and hearing paraglterers be like, Why would you do that? Like it must take an hour to set up, like why you find old glady? gets old, doesn't it? Yeah, I hear you.. And so I think it's not entirely, you know, unfair that a lot of Hanglater pilots feel that way. so No, I'm with you. I think that makes sense. I do think If I tell Hangler Puts, I was parallting Sometimes are kind of annoyed. But it was cool when I was learning and I think I'd just gone on like a week long hangine trip or something or I went to a competition and then I came back and they're like, oh, like were you paragline? And I was like, no, but they're like, oh, at least you're in the air And that it was really nice to have that paralliders don't seem to really care what you're flying as long as you're flying. so That was going On the Hanglining sideer, it's not quite. as accepting all the time, which I understand, but It's It could be a little friendlier for sure Let see Uh, you mentioned in your email to me that One of the really cool tools for education and instructing and learning are cameras. I hadn't thought about that. I don't know why I hadn't thought about that. We use video a lot and SIV training, of course, you know so you can really see You know offtten things are happening so fast, a lot of students just can't catch up to what's just what is happening or has just happened. And so video can be a really good tool for that. I think you're talking about using it for just in training in general, correct Yeah, I use video a lot to analyze launches and landings. Like I said, that's a really important thing For me I think on the hangleiter it's kind of easier because you can just mount it on the glider and then just Just have that Right super cool. So A lot of people use Ina three hundred sixtyies now, which are super cool for making videos for social media, but they're actually not very good from what I've seen for analyzing your flights. Like I'll have a landing where I did a lot of things wrong and I'm annoyed about it, but then I'll look at the Inster three hundred sixty and it looks great And that's cool because it's just too wide angle I guess, I don't know, but I'm like, that's cool. I'm gonna post that one and then no one's gonna complain about whatever I did wrong, which is awesome. But it doesn't actually help you analyze your own flight. So I think what I recommend for that for handang gliders is a GoPro or similar camera on the keel And that can really help you with launching with landing, seeing your nose angles, seeing what your hands are doing, seeing what your body is doing. And I will do that on most of my flights is look actually at every flight I'll look at my launch and my landing and be like how could I improve this, you know Is there anything I did wrong? What can I do next time to make it better And a lot of people, you'll see someone have a notate landing and a lot of the times they'll blame it on the conditions And the camera can really show like was it actually that or was it something I did. And I think it's really important to recognize that. and then if it was you, like take responsibility for that and then figure out how to fix it next time Yeah. I imagine hanglinings maybe easier in some ways for launching in cross or I don't maybe not, but, you know, when you in paragliding, if you see somebody blow a launch, you know, it's Oh the conditions wr No, you're crap at ground handandling. That's just it's an easy one. know And we've tried to really correct that just as culturally as you know, it's a conditions, No, it's not you're just you're not doing it. You know, you should be able if you if you pulled it out of the bag, you should be able to launch in whatever you're looking at and do it nicely with style nail it. The camera thing is interesting because I think I think there's a big difference here, I'm guessing because you could mount the camera like that and just press go We've had a We think Aecdotally, here we go again, but we think that GoPros are causing a lot more mayhem in our sport especially with those kind of sub hundred hour pilots because it's adding a level of complication and a thing you've got to fiddle with, youve got to mount it, it's in the way, it's potentially could get caught if you had a big collapse if you got it on your head, you know, but it's it's mostly just that to fly well, you've got to observe, right? You've got to be aware and of other people, especially if you're thermaling with them, but also of just the terrain and your glide and the whole thing. And then When you're new, that's a lot., you know, your brain is processing a lot and it's not necessarily intuitive yet. you know, that's that's coming, hopefully, but It's not when you're new at all. There's just so much going on. and then to add a camera because you want to show your friends what you've done, you know, it's something we've really kind of gone, hey, be careful with this. You know, you don't say no to anybody, but you're just Uh, you know, if I had a student yeah, let's keep that in the bag for a while I think What I love is somebody videoing person. But like you said with the hangleter, I think that could be It's not an issue, is it? You mount it, you turn it on and do your flight. It's not something you're really and you're and you're looking you're having it look at you and you're not You know, I think a lot of parrylighters are get getting in trouble because they're filming what's out there. Look at how beautiful this is and they're not paying attention Yeah, I mean, I think if you're not having them film themselves, then having someone film them is not necessarily better because they're still on the camera, they're still like doing something for the camera. Yeah, I will say having the thing melted on their head, that is so scary to me on a paraglider. I've seen the lines get wrapped around that. and people kind of being dragged and stuff and I will I will never do that on a paret. I hope If I do, like someone tell me a thought, please Yeah on the Hangleter, yeah, like you said, you just put on the keel, you say go, you don't have to. I think when you get a little bit more advanced, I have a remote so I can just turn it on and off because it's not going to last like the entire flight. But for a new pilot who's just going to do a short flight, it'll easily last I Yeah, yeah, for sure. If someone is distracted by it or something, like sure for that person don't have it. But I think it could be a case by case basis even What keeps you jazzed about flying after all this time? What is you know, do you if you did it as a profession, you're doing it every day, would you have the same kind of passion? Is it that you've got to work and you dream about it Monday through Friday and then you get to go flying or What keeps you excited about it Yeah, I I'm sure if I did it every day, I would still love it just as much I don't, so I mean, it's hard to say, how I would feel in that situation. But I think for me recently ike I said, my first like ten years or so, I didn't really get to fly that much and then past five years, I would say, I've just grown so much as a pilot. I started competitions a few years ago. I moved up to a sport class glider. L year, I guess it was I started flying topless gliders And so I've really been working on kind of getting some of the basics. I've started cross country flying with competitions And there's just been so much to learn and so much to do. and its just it's been a lot of fun When I got the list of people you know, to interview, a good friends with a guy named Gary Wordham in Italy and he flies commercial jets, but he's also a very talented hang glider and he gave me the list and you were on it. And he said that he's just it's just great to have a female in a sport because there's not many of them, which is the same in paragliding. talkal about that dynamic for a bit. You know, what has there been I don't know, barriers to entry, awkwardness on launch, you know, the whole mail thing. Oh, you know, you do it this way I don't know. what's what is that journey been like for you? H it been supportive? H it been frustrating? What do you see? Yeah, it's been interesting for me since I think since I entered it at kind of a younger age, I was just used to it. like they're were very few women and that's just kind of how it was. I think there's a lot more now, which is great. And also when I parallided, there's a lot more, which is super super cool. And I went to like one of the women's fans for paralliding, which was really fun. I think like occasionally I do encounter sexism and things I thought on launch. I went to Toria one time with a guy friend and or there was a few people who came up to us, they only introduced themselves to him. They completely ignored that I was there. No way. Yeah, even when we went out and like we' setting at the glliders, they just like completely ignored me. I walked him up to launch. He was flying a Falcon, which is like, you know,' a small glider. and people were like, Ohh, are you guys going in tandem? I'm like Do you see the size of this cler? And why would you even make that assumption? So Definitely things like that happen and that's frustrating. I think I get even more of it online. can need Very frustrating as well, but that's not from pilots so much. That's just from people just to Toma Mmhm. On the whole, you know, there's definitely instances like that, but there's also been a lot of support. So You know, it's I kind of put it out of my mind, so it's actually hard for me to think of examples. L it definitely happens, but I try not to think about it. so That might not be the best way to do it, but It helps keep you going and not just like dwell on these negative things You mentioned you're getting a little bit of topless and competitions and that kind of thing. I mean if do you have kind of a goal sheet something you're working on? what is the what are the next you know year, maybe five years look like for you? What are you excited about getting into doing if anything differently or? change. Yeah. So my fiance is also a pilot and we talk about this A what And he's really he's really goal motivated. likeike he wants to do loops. like he has like very specific things he wants to do. I don't really have that. I just w to like not I just want to be better than I am I'm always really focused on just improving. whether that's launches or landings or I've been working a lot on thermaline because thermaline has always been something that's been not like I'm okay at it, but I'm not I want to be better, you know, I want to be really good at it So it's really just about that for me, like just seeing the improvements. Going to more competitions is fun. I went to Vai in February and that was my best competition I've done. I made goal on four of six days in sport cllass, which is like by far my best competition And so it was really cool to see that improvement But I just really like to keep improving and then keep working on Toppless gliders, maybe I'm a little torn on flying topless because I don't I really honestly don't think that most people need to be flying top the spliders It's like if you're doing nerbatics, you're not competing or trying to go like set distance records there is Not necessarily a good reason. You know, if your reason is, I want to look cool. likeike that's not a good reason, right? No, that's a reason a more dangerous glider So I don't necessarily want to be flying topless because I don't have a good reason to be flying Hpl this I think my reason right now is knowing I can do it, being able to do it, and then having that confidence actually gives me more confidence to fly other gliders, like not topless gliders. So clitters that might be too big for me or just other like borrowing other people's clitterers.ince'm since I was able to fly the topplist basically, I had more confidence doing that Are are you just taking a huge jump in risk going to Tpless? Is that because of the speed? Is that what is it? Is it higher aspect Yeah, it's it's that it's stiffer, it's heavier So it has more inertia. so it's harder to launch, harder to land in the air. will respond a lot more slowly than a sport class glider or a falcon, so you just kind of have to be prepared for that like putting your turn in put and then wait a while And then it'll turn. that's that goes up with like every glutter, but with the topppless it it's just the biggest effect I know you worked on the board with USBa for a long time and U that's with the audiences being from all over the world, I don't want to get into Uspa, but I wouldd be curious about, you know, there's been this massive safety debate, especially at the higher end of the paragliding sport after there was a death at the worldlds last fall in Brazil. And it got, you know, as things do these days because of social media, it just really kind of blew up and You know, uh But what the Behind the scenes, what people were really grappling with is, you know there was this immediate attempt, okay, here's all the things we've got to tackle. Here's the things we should change. Here's the things we should implement But there's no data A lot of these things are just opinions. You know, we need a cononical end of speed. Is that where we have accidents? I mean, I've been racing for a very long time. I've never seen an accident in goal. so U, you know, it's most of the time it's on launch or you know, over bad terrain. it's we people come in racing low on bar, but it seems to work out. anyway, I mean, but obviously notot always, but We don't have data. We're not collecting it very well. We don't know And so these are just opinions often of people who are just really passionate about sharing it, you know, And so It's hard to just cut through the noise on a lot of this stuff. I mean, I don't think anybody goes no, we don't want to make it safer. I mean, I think it's it's all good intentions, but I' curious if you know or if there're even statistics. and of course, we gott to look at per capita, but what is more dangerous? Is it hang gliding or is it paragliding Is it speed flying? Well, we know speedflying is more dangerous than both, but I'm just curious. Do did you look did you have any did you have access to that kind of data data? Is that data out there? I don't even know I'm so glad you said there's no data because there is no data. Yeah Amazing isn't it Maybe the insurance company has it, but I was unusual staff, not the board and I never saw No, it's okay. I never saw that And it's Yeah, I mean, I have a lot of my own opinions about which is safer and whatever, but it's anecdotal, right Everything's antidote. Yeah There is no data. And it's interesting too, because when wrote I wrote an article for Pilot magazine about the misconceptions between the two sports. and I did say like There's no data. we don't know which is safer And they took that out. They're like, you can't include this res they didn't give me a reason But they're like, we don't want to say this, and I don't know why. But But it's true. There's no tata. It's amazing because you know, when you talk to airline pilots and several of them have reached out to me is a result of all this social media noise going on about this, you know, the safety debate, They just can't believe it. I mean, they're pilots so they know, but it's it's It's pretty hard to understand how there isn't data. You know, when I run comps, I'm an event organizer and Civil collects them in one way and Ushba collects them in another way. For the first few years, I didn't even know anybody did collect them and that I had to. You know, so I mean, it it's kind of mind blowing that we don't have We should have this stuff down. You know, there should be just a template What were the conditions? How did it happen? Was it gear? was it personal was what happened? you know, didid they throw the reserve? Was the reserve successful? What kind of reserve? did twenty things collect it around the world and we would then it wouldn't be anecotal. We would know it. It it's kind of frustrating. I wasn't planning on getting off on this thing. I was just curious if because I think gettingetting into the sport that don't know anything, that's going to be one of the things on their mind. You know, I think a lot of people get into speedflying don't even know it's dangerous and you know, you're flying really low to the ground. It's kind of obvious that wings suiting and speedflying would be more dangerous. I think we know that, but Beyond that it is pretty anecdotal. And I mean, to'd be curious for I just don't even know if paragliding is there are more paragliding accidents for sure, but there's more paragliders. So what does it come down to? which one is? It seems that I mean, again, completely anecdotally. Yeah, well you said, I've got opinions about this. What is your opinion about it? It seems to me hang gliding is less dangerous these days, but I don't know maybe that's just because Much less people are doing it. I don't know Yeah. Well, Acdotally, what I tell people when they ask me which is safer I just say anecdotally, again, the injury rate is on or not rate, but the most common injury on a hangleider is broken arm whichich sucks, but, you know, it heals. The most common That's is landing. you have you have a hard landing? That's because if you hold on to the down tubes, which is usually where your hands are when you're landing, you can swing through because you're not, you know, you're on. Y body is just not connected Yeah, basically you swing through and that twists your arm in a way that breaks it Okay Yeah, it's a spiral. Humors fracture. it's super common And there are ways like people say to let go, which I don't necessarily agree with either. but that's kind of a different topic. But then anecdotally on a paraglider, the most common injury is broken back neck pelvis R it So much worse rather broken. I see that to people and I'm like, Which would you rather have honestly? , interesting. Yeah, I mean, it it's You know, these this is in my emergency notes with the enreach, you know, Gavin McClerg has crashed. it's likely from paragliding and it's likely spinal. It's not unlikely going to be an arm Exactly, Eactly. I'd rather have an arm You can break other things h gliding too. And actually I've heard recently about Bore broken ne than I expected, not recent accidents, but just like in general. And I think that's from When people do if people do let go to avoid breaking an arm, then you're risking your head hitting the keel. And then you're risking a broken neg So to me I'm like, you know, I'd rather again break my arm than break my neck. It It was super funny actually, not funny, but I posted because I did break my arm in twenty nineteen. fine at Monroe. And basically I just was ling crosswind and I tried to run, but I fell on my whels, and then I hit a bush and then I swung through, I was like super You know, it was very preventable, but suuper kind of common accident kind of thing that can happen and I posted about it, know later and someone and I was like, I don't want to hear about how you should let go because I don't really think that's the best idea And this guy messaged me and he was like, you totally should have let go I had an accident like that. I let go. All that happened was I dented my helmet. and I was like You dented your helmet, like were you okay And he's like, oh, I was in the coma for three days, but I didn't bring Oh my God. Exactly. And like, I think you're proving my qut here. Dude, Oh my go deffinitely proving your point. Oh my gosh, that's ridiculous. There are ways to do it. I think if you let go, if you try to kind of twist the side I've heard can maybe kind of protect your neck from hitting a keel. Or the thing I like that I mean, I haven't done it, but I like the idea is if you kind of hug the high side U like the high down tube Theoretically your body would spin around that tube instead of you swinging through and breaking your arm And that also is that gives you the added benefit of like then the glider absorbs the impact instead of you theoretically. Use that as the pad in a sense. M. Just another thing about Hang there is like we do have that big metal crash frame that parallge. So In some sense it can hurt you with like the broken arm. but in other senses like it can really it can absorb Mhm Yeah, sure We're getting into an interesting area here. I just recorded a podcast yesterday with an instructor who's up in Oregon and' been instructing for a very long time. and we started talking about You just aviating and aviation has inherent risks, right? whether you're an airplane or paraglider, hang glider, or balloon, whatever You know,re you're off the ground. gravity gravity's harsh I You we're talking about some things that I think the audience is probably, man, this sounds scary. It is in broken arms, no big deal. but U As an instructor, when you're teaching people who come Hey I I've run into a lot of folks who are you know, they're they're in that intermediate syndrome phase, you know, they're in the kind of the middle and they'll say, you know, yeah, no one told me this was dangerous in the beginning. I mean, obviously, you figure that out as you go along and In a sense, if you're an instructor and it's a business and you're trying to attract people to the sport and we're all try I'm totally with you. And if I get hurt, I'm not going to post it on Instagram. There's plenty of that out there. But at the same time, I I mean, it's kind of two ways, isn't it? on the one hand, you go Yeah, we don't need that for the sport. On the other hand, I don't know that this is a sport we want to have huge growth in. You know, it just is dangerous. We can't remove the danger from it necessarily. There's all kinds of things we can do to mitigate it, which is fantastic. You know, there's not a lot you can mitigate if you're if you're wing suiting, for example, but can mitigate a lot training, ground handling, margin complacenence you know being wary of complacency, hours, you know, being current. There's all kinds of things we can do. That's what this podcast is all about. but My question is, I mean, do how much do we want to hammer this home when you get a brand new student that comes to your hill to learn What's your approach there? Be you've had quite a conservative approach to hand gliding and that's I think Mary wise. Yeah, we we try to be very honest, I think. it's tough, right? Be I think especially with all the misconceptions about Hanglidian. like everyone seems to think that hanglining is super dangerous. and I think that's because I think that's because hang gliding was the most popular when it was the most dangerous So I'll have people commenting on my videos who are like, oh yeah, I saw someone who installed and crashed. and then I'll be like, okay, when was that? And they're like, o, nineteen seventy six. like It's completely different sport now than it used to be, but people still have this idea because Hanglight was the first thing and it was, you know, really big for a long time And so I think people already come into it with this idea that it's dangerous often, which maybe is not so much the case with paragliding, I wonder actually. Especially since paragliding is so easy to get started in. and I feel like the risks like you don't really see them until later a lot of the time Maybe. We do try to be honest with people and It depends on the instructor. Like when I started the instructor who in the school, like he actively tried to talk to out of it and my parents out of it. He was like this is really dangerous, likeike you shouldn't do it. Really? Yeah. So we don't take that approach quite that much anymore, but I mean, we'll still tell people, you know, you can crash, you can watch crash videos online. And like, yeah, I wouldn't get I wouldn't post the crross for do online, I think but I would say I crush. Like I would, like have I crushed? I would post about it, just not in the video Hm. Yeah. U That's an interesting one. How okay Gavin McClerg hasn't flown either thing comes to your hill and wants to aviate has no idea if he should paraglide or hang glide Wh one which one takes less time to walk away and do your own thing? You know, do you guys have the same ratings as it P two? I sorry, H two is that? You have the same system M less, right? The sameame system. Yeah, definitely always ones faster Parallid is way faster. Paralid is way faster to learn. Okay. you know you can take someone off the street, that's what they do, right? Many schools. like they get their wing up and they just send them off the top immediately. and it's very intuitive and you figure it out. And they can do that first thing. We can't really do that with hang gliding. Hang gliding is a lot less intuitive, learning to feelu the glider I wouldn't say it takes longer, I would just say that it's necessary to feel the glider properly, to fly it properly. whereereas with paragliding, you don't really need to there's so much that a first A student like they're not feeling any of it, but they can still like pull the brakes and like get it on safely. I would say. Yeah, follow along on the radio and and do like they say. Yeah So definitely paragliding is easier to get started in, but I think that paragliding is much more difficult to master or to like get through like the intermediate part. safely Yeah Rus Ags always says it's so easy to learn and so easy to get good at It so hard to get good at. you know, it takes a long to get evenven really very proficient. you know, like you said, anybody can lob off a hill and at the training hill. You have thoughts about that traraining hills. talkal about that I love train hills and I wish more people went back to them. I think anytime there's an opportunity to go to a training hill, I am at the train hill. I don't know why I like it so much, but I think it's what I said before about really wanting to perfect everything about my technique. A lot of that is launches and landings. likeike that's where you're gonna get hurt on a hangler, I suppose on a I suppose on per letter two But it If you can do your launches and landings like very safely and confidently then That's like the main thing you have to worry about Hm so Training hills were a lot of fun for me. And then also, you know, if they're windy, then you can try to store them or try to top bnd them depending on the hill and there's a lot of things you can do on a training hill or you know do spot Landning contests We just went a couple months ago or actually I guess it was last month. So Kittyhawk Kites in North Carolina, they have a dune competition every year called the spectacular. And so literally you're just running down the trainy hill like doing a course and trying to spotland and it's a competition So we just did that, you know, for a weekend and that was super fun H. So for those listening who either have never hang glided or have never own they're just they're just interested in maybe getting into the sport. They've seen your videos and that kind of thing. Where would you tell them to go? I get this one a lot from people that hey, I'm either coming to the United States or hey, I've listened to some of your shows or I saw this on YouTube, whatever. Where should I go learn? And I've got my favorite places to send people and that's always a little bit inscribed by where I learn myself and where I've gone, but you know we know the instructors that are out there. We know the good training kills. Where's a good place to go to learn how to Hang glide. And if I mean, if you can reach I don't know if you know those spots in Europe as well, but just You know, our audience is all over the place, But the where where's a good where is a good place to go figure this out in a, you know, safe manner Yeah, I don't know the spots in Europe. I normally when people message me about this online, I just say, you know, look online for a school in your area I mean, there are places like, you know, our school wins sports in Los Angeles There's a school at the pointoint of the Mountain and pointoint of the Mountain is an amazing place to learn, I think either sport top place Especially with hangliding, it's not, I know with paraglinding, you can do like a two week course and get your P two and then you walk away and you're a pilot. That's not really The same with Pank gladion a lot of the time It just takes a while to learn and you have to have different conditions and do all these different things. So I think traveling to learn to hanglighted u can be more difficult. So that's why I tell people look for a cyleinder area because That'll just be kind of the most consistent way to learn I recently we were a friend of mine and I were coaching this hike and fly clinic before a little hike and fly race that I'd have out here in the Lost Rivers in Idaho a couple of weekends ago And one of the students, a good friend of mine, actually,'s been flying for about ten years.'s good pilot And And he and I said, what when in the initial thing, what do you all want to get out of this course? I know, make sure we teach you what you want, what you came here for And he said you know, I I haven't flown really anywhere where there wasn't I didn't get a site briefing You know, that I didn't I'm not used to just going to a place and rocking up and flying off, which in hike and fly, that's all you're doing. You're very rarely flying an established site. You're just, well, this looks good and I can get my wing out of here. and it's the right aspect. and I say. So that just blew me away. I mean, I haven't been to a place and gotten a site briefing in fifteen plus years. I mean, this was the first couple of weeks of my flying career and then after that this looks nice. So but you know, my focus has been a lot on hike and fly, that kind of thing. I mean, you know, you're not going to get any sight briefings in the exXLps kind of deal. But I was surprised with that, but it was He left the course really jazzed about looking at something and going, yeah, I can make that work. And for me, that's just the best way to learn is to fly new places. I think you've got some thoughts on that. uh you know, reach going beyond your comfort zone a little bit Yeah, any, I feel like it's a little different in that sense because you are usually getting site briefings. I mean, you're driving up the hill, so you aren really going more to establish sites, sure. Yeah Yeah, we are doing that I would say I think for going beyond your comfort zone though, one of the tools that I really like to recommend is there's a hangliding simulator called Free fllight Experience And with that, you can it has like a ton of sites and you can go buy them. It's in VR and kind of get, you know, this is the opposite of hike and life. It's all, you know, like I said, it it's all defined sites, but you can get really comfortable with the site. And I've also used it though for landing weird places. So Cross country in Sokal, especially for hangliding is kind of sketchy. There's just like not many places to land and it's so developed. And there's one spot at crerestline where if you get low there, like you basically can't get out. And so halfway down the mountain It was pointed out to me that there's like a field that people have used for back by that r Yeah s backack by that road down into the right, I think Oh, it' it's a Ranger station Oh, okay. yeah ye. Yeah, there's a ranger station that's like by the highway and it's like halfway down Yeah D Alon. And so I hope to never land there in my entire life. but I landed there in the simulator a few times and that was super helpful because there's really only one way to approach it on a hangbter because there's all these road signs and you have to go between them and they go up this hill. And again, I hope to never do this for real. But doing it on the simulator is pretty fun and it really gives you the feeling that you're actually doing it So there's a lot you can do with the simulator. you can practice thermaline, you can go to new sites, you can land at places that you hope to never land. But I really recommend that as a way to kind of Even for advanced pilots like prorogress safely and for beginner pilots too go to the site and not do those things, but at least you feel more confident that you could I don't know if we even have anything. I mean, I know u Somebody reached out recently that they're working on that for parag gliding, but I don't know that we have that I've flown simulators for sailplanes. And I know they that's a big part of their training and they and they're amazing. They I mean, they're very accurate and it' it's great because you crash and it doesn't mean anything. Yeah, there's Condor for sales. Yes. I use that Id use that for thermal practice to kind of try to visualize the thermals and things like that. I crash those sailplanes all the time. I don't know how to sailpl I had my experience with Condor. Yeah. I blow s clean up like every time I this one Yeah, and they're pretty expensive, I'm told. So I'm not sure we should should probably keep it the condor. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I actually actually went in the sailplane with a friend and I was like just having blown it up so many times, I was just It just actually psyched me out a little bit reight Yeah, why? It was good. It was fun Erica, thanks for coming on the show. I really appreciate it and this is some good fun information and I'm sure this will inspire people to come out and do some dune flying and get into the sport. Every time I talk to a hang letter I I can't remember who it was, but somebody just made it really obvious. I said, Well, you know, what's better? And they said, Well How do Eagles fly We're prone what people say is like everything's better about pairredlining except for the flying. and the flying is why we do it. H Erica, thank you very much. I appreciate it. and it's good to see you and hope I get to fly with you out there soon in California. Or Yeah Arion, than you so much We used to have hangliders here. We haven't seen anybody hangliding in an awful long time, so ye put together a crew and come out. Mbe we'll come up, that'd be awesome. that'd be really fun be fun. Cheers. find that Cloud Base may invaluable and you can support it in a lot of different ways. All of them incredibly important to keep this show going G us a rating on whatever platform you listen to. You can blog about it on your website or share it on social media You can talk about it on the way up to launch with your friends. I know a lot of good conversations have happened that way and of course you can support the show financially The show does take a lot of time, a lot of editing, storage, music, behind the scenes cost And all we've ever asked for is a buck show. We put out a show every two weeks. 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