Artemis II and Space Exploration

Hello and welcome to Connected Episode 5 98. I am your annual chairman, Stephen Hackett. We're sponsored this week by Fitbod, Mercury Weather and Steam Clock, and I'm joined by my friend Mike. Hello. Hello . No Federico today. Uh he is at a comic book convention. So look out for that, I guess. Yeah. Do you think he's LARP ing? You know, I'd never considered it, but it's possible. The funny thing to me, so this comic book convention is called ROMX, which I just think is hilarious. Wow. Well, opsec man, who's telling him telling people where he is I'm saying all of this because um I'm a list you're clearly showing that you're not a listener of NPC. I am not no one expected it. Uh but on an episode of NPC that listened to last night was the moment Federico realized that he was doing this, uh when they said see you next week and he was like, Oh hang on a minute, I won't be here, I'm going to Rome x. So he said it all in public, so I feel like I can now say it. Uh and I just I just think that a Rome comic book convention called Romex is really funny. How's it spelled? I guess it's R-O-M-I-C C S Romix 2026. Yeah. Romix. Rome Comics. It's the 36th edition. Wow. Well if if you want to go in the past and find Federico, that's where he'll be. Yep . Wow, this is this there's a lot of stuff going on here on this website. Yes, it's a serious it's not it's not a joke. It's a serious thing, you know? There dude, there's a 30th anniversary space jam celebration of this . Wow. Dude. I want to go now. Let's go. It runs for three more days. I bet he didn't. I can't I don't know. I bet he's never seen it. I bet he's never seen it. Well ask uh we'll have to ask him next week. I'm gonna text him right now and I'm just gonna say, have you ever seen Space Jam? Okay, see what he says. And I'm gonna report back if he responds. Real time follow-up . In the meantime, we have regular follow-up . And uh Jonathan wrote in about cheap Mac Pros. We spoke about this uh last time about how you can get a trash can just for basically free on eBay now. Mm-hmm . And uh so Jonathan wrote in regarding the twenty thirteen Mac Pro, I bought one in October, upgraded the RAM to sixty-four gigabytes, and upgraded to an eight core CPU for next to nothing. I've got Sequoia running via open core. Open core is a way to run unsupported macOS versions on older hardware. This machine is currently serving as my main computer and is great for nearly everything I need, including three D modeling infusion. It's dead silent, and as a benefit, I get to stare at a pretty cool looking machine every day . Computers a time bomb? Because the GPUs were the problem in these computers, right? You know this better than anybody, right? All the freezing stuff. Yes . So like I hope it goes well, Jonathan, but I worry about you. Yeah, and just something like just the sentence I've got Sequoia running via open core. Like that just makes me un that just makes me uncomfortable. Yeah . The open core legacy patcher . Legacy patcher was my nickname in high school. I don't know what that means. Uh tell us about Dropbox and Backblaze. Alright, so we've got a bunch of people wrote in with a bunch of different suggestions. Alright. So Andy wrote in and says about the Dropbox backup problem. Hook up a large external drive to one of your Macs, use the Maestro app to download the whole Dropbox to a drive, and then have Backblaze make the backup. Backblaze won't even know that it's a Dropbox folder. So that's an interesting thought, right? Like if I'm doing if I copy my Dropbox to a to a disk, I could then back it up to backblaze. The problem is you said use the Maestro app. I'm not doing that. Hmm. I'm just not doing that. So that's part one. Jonathan wrote in and said, plug in an external SSD, use R clone to sync your dropbox overnight, add the drive to backblaze. Are you gonna do that? I don't like the sound of that. Uh Charles says, Can you hook up an external SSD to some stationary Mac, set drop box to download everything, and then maybe use a shortcut's action to sync that to a different path and back that up to fire backblaze . Some people also mentioned using backblaze's B two as a way to do this backup. So here's the situation as it stands for me right now . Also Zoe's saying I'm surprised how against Maestral you are. Here's the thing. I am not into anything that tries to get around Dropbox . That feels like a problem. An an unreliable system, right? But like I can't imagine Dropbox is like super thrilled about Maestro exist ing . I don't know that for sure, but that's my theory. Uh Rob also wrote in and says I have switched over to ARC backup, which doesn't have any problem doing these backups. I chose their premium offering, but you could easily point ARC to your backup storage of choice. Yeah. So I there's a lot of stuff going on here and, it's all kind of like there's a lot of things kind of like floating around as potential solutions. Now, what I can't do is download my entire Dropbox to my Mac Mini because my Mac Mini's SSD is not big enough . I don't want to have my entire Dropbox folder on an external drive that I'm working from. I'm not into that because it would need to be a hard drive for the size. I would need at least four terabytes, right? Maybe more . So what I am considering is some kind of large hard drive which is making a copy of my Dropbox or downloading it somehow and then using something like Arc to back it up to backplaces B2 service because that's actually quite fairly priced for looking at it today. But the problem is how do I get Dropbox downloaded in a way that is good? So maybe I do need to use either Maestral or R-Clone or whatever. Yeah. I don't think I could be wrong, but I don't think R-Clone can pull stuff from Dropbox. The cloud files. I don't think. Something's gonna have to download it. Yeah. And like and I don't know what that is yet. Like I have I have wondered what it might be like to have a Mac. Like another Mac that's always on and has got this thing connected to it and it's just doing stuff for me, basically a server . But I don't know. I'm I'm really stuck on this because it's none of this is easy Yeah . Cause like also I don't want a spinning hard drive around where I currently am, my recording environment. I just don't want it. Mm-hmm. Cause I don't know. I genuinely at this point, I don't know how loud those things are anymore. I've not used to spinning disc in a really long time. Yeah, I mean I've got uh I guess eleven spinning in my office uh between my NAS and my N VR. They can be loud. But you're right, the problem is actually getting the data over because Dropbox now uses Apple's file provider, which means you can't tell the Dropbox application, put my Dropbox here. I mean in the old days you could do that, but Apple file provider API stuff requires it to be in the user library. And so that's why you have to use Maestral or something else to get those files elsewhere. Um have you thought about an eight terabyte Mac Studio just for this purpose. No. You can get one as soon as October . I mean, we I priced it and was like, oh no, that's not good. Because like what I think I need to do So hit where where I am right now is I am thinking I need a Mac plugged into some kind of NAS that has a couple of drives in it. 'Cause I'm figuring if I'm doing this, I should go the whole way and have something set up in some kind of raid configuration. Because if I'm going all in on backup, I may as well make it good. You know what I mean? What you have described is a Synology sinking to your dropbox folder. Yes, but I okay, so there is an episode of analog that goes up this weekend where I also enlisted Casey in this thing. So spoilers, Synology's not the move. And he's suggested. Yeah, no, he's anti Synology now. Yeah. But I also but like he he didn't really express anti Synology just, in like he's like, I know you, you don't want this. Sure. I mean it's a whole computer, basically. I don't want that. I want a computer that I understand how to use. Mm-hmm . So that's why I keep falling back to a Mac . Yeah. I don't know. I'm really struggling with this one. I I just don't know how to do it properly for me. Yeah. That's and like I'm I'm just I'm very hesitant and I know we're gonna get we're people this Discord's already lighting up about my straw Maestraw and people are gonna write in about it. I just need you to understand I do not want to add in a bunch of overhead into my life to learn something new. I just don't want to do that. I just I'm not into it. I'm not interested. Like whatever this system is, if I end up doing anything, it has to be easy. I think I just coming I think I just come back to I I just don't know if you need everything in your life on Dropbox. I mean that's how I was for a long time. That's why my MacBook Pro that I'm sitting in front of has uh freaking eight terabyte ssd in it because that i lived that way for a long time and i just got to a point where i don't need all that in dropbox or locally i can hit my NAS from anywhere. So like if I'm in your home, I can get to my NAS on the internet and pull any files I need. Yeah, but it's I mean you're making a good point, but then we're still back to the same situation because if you say I don't need everything on Dropbox, but then I need it to be on an S, then I'm still getting an S . Yeah. So like the I I understand where you're going, but we end up back in the same situation of like the setup that I currently have doesn't enough. Yeah. How how big is your Dropbox? Do you know what we talked about? At the moment, it's getting close to three terabytes. Yeah. So you would basically have to buy an eight terabyte Mac to have it all locally on a Mac. Because a four terabyte Mac you're gonna hit that at some point. I'm I'm I have no I will I will never get a Mac that can download all of this because the price will always be too much money. Let's see what the cheapest eight terabyte Mac is. Probably the Mac mini is. It's like it's like two times the price of the Mac that I bought. Yeah, so it's horrible. Probably need the Prochip uh eight terabyte . Let's see. Um yeah, you need the M4 Pro . Mm-hmm . You can do the 12 core, though. 24 gigs of RAM. As the cheapest 8TB. One, you can get it in July. So congratulations. Yeah, this was another thing. Yeah. Thirty eight hundred dollars. Yeah, I'm not doing that. My NASA's way. More than I spent on the machine that I'm talking to you on right now, which is like the most powerful computer I've ever owned. Yeah. You know, like my thought is get a $500 Mac Mini and attach some drives to it. Yeah. You know ? Yeah . I wonder if you can put eight terabytes of space in a trash can Mac Pro. I d the we've already been over why that's a bad idea. Well, you don't need the GPUs to sync files, you know, it's fine. This is this is a this is a thing that needs to be solved that I don't feel like I need to solve quickly, but I do feel like it has highlighted to me an area of my life that needs some level of improvement. Yeah, yeah. Clearly it's it now that I mean I I would be the same way. Like now that we know this, I would be uncomfortable with just with my data just in Dropbox because a sync service is not a backup, no matter what some other podcasters say . So So Gotta do something. Yep, but I don't know what it is. And I look I look forward to what will be more follow up because it is actually helping me. You know, like people, we're getting there. Like together we're getting there. Yeah. Um and and I I hope that people can hear what I'm saying of like this this system for me has to be low maintenance. Like it has to be. Because I need to not have to think about it. And learning something completely new, whether that be an entire operating system or a a bunch of new apps, is just like it's just not gonna w it just doesn't work where I am right now. Like I need this to be simple. Um, and so we'll see. I mean, I I do feel like it's not SSD, that's for sure. Like, this is not an SSD system . There was a time where maybe that was a thing, that time is not right now. that has actually made it harder. Because if this was a you know, if we were doing this a year ago, I would just buy a really big like SSD or a couple of SSDs and just like make it work, but I can't do that anymore. And I don't want to do that. So now it opens up new problems and new solutions. I mean big data is just a problem, right? You end up having to make weird decisions. This is why I used to delete everything. I mean, maybe. Do you know what doesn't have a lot of storage ? That's a brilliant transition. The MacBook Neo. Oh, I have some real-time follow-up. Okay . So it's this must have been really upsetting for Federico. I text him, have you ever seen Space Jack? And he said, What? That is a crazy coincidence. I love Space Jam. I was at back at the convention, I took a picture of some guy cosplaying as Batman shooting hoops at the Space Jam exhibition. Because they're bringing the movie back to theaters in Italy. Whoa. What? What? Are they doing that here? Why? Space Jam back in theaters. Space Jam back to the future. That's not what I want, Google. Uh yeah, it looks like it's happening. Huh . Oh no, that's ten years ago. Sorry, I can't read. That was the twentieth anniversary. In July. Apparently it's coming back to maybe like maybe they're just big fans. Oh, it's the thirtieth anniversary. Yeah. I don't know if they just do it in Italy or what, but there you go. Who knew this jam? Who knew? He loves it . You know what else he loves ? Okay. The MacBook Neo. Okay. Finally made it our way back to it. Uh we've been talking Federico and I've been talking a lot about like people hacking the MacBook Neo. You know, he did a thermal pad in his to make it dissipate heat better. Is that a thing people do? Yeah. Yeah. It's does it work? Uh yes. Yes, it does. Okay. Have you done it? Uh I have the parts. Or I have like the thermal pad. I haven't done it yet. Okay. Um, I may do it. I may not. We'll see. Anyways, lots of stuff going on here with the MacBook and Neo. Uh the other upgrade thing people are doing just to get it out of the way is uh DOS Dude One, which is just an incredible YouTube channel . Took a NAND flash part, a one terabyte NAND flash part from what would be in an iPhone and soldered it into the MacBook Neo and the MacBook Neo just accepted it and was like, I have a terabyte of storage now. That's horrific. Yeah, the video's horrifying. Um, at some point he's just like putting a heat gun, just like, I don't know, we gotta melt this stuff. Like, what are you doing? Uh anyways, the news is that uh these things are really popular and Apple may have a problem on its hands. Um I just actually I put this on Mastodon yesterday. I went to Target and I was out running errands yesterday. Like you walk into the Target in my neighborhood and there's a huge MacBook Neo sign. You know, like the Hello Neo thing. Like as like when you walk into Target and they have them for sale usually by Mac Target? I don't think so. You've been able to do iPads and I think phones. And back in the day you could definitely do iPods. I'm pretty sure it's the first Mac you've been able to buy in Target. So it's not just the Walmart computer anymore then. We''veve m movedoved up up, we a level, you know ? Depending on what you think about Target and Walmart. We can't get into that. Uh but Tim Culp Kulpman ? Klopman? Probably Kluman. Well it's definitely not Klopman. It's not that. And it's not Colpman. It's Colpin. Culpin. There's no M in there. Colpin. Well there's an M and Tim. I just moved it over. Okay. Yeah, I know, but I don't think that's how they were like transfer. Just like they're just shifting. Yeah. So uh wrote this wrote this article about the A eighteen pro that's that's being used in the MacBook and Neo, the Bend version of the iPhone 16 Pro uh chip, which ran really hot in the iPhone Pro. If you remember that, like you know, the 16 Pro just ran hot. Um kind of a weird process. That process isn't in use anymore at TSMC. It was kind of a one-off to make that happen. Um, that basically those binned chips, so that Apple's been setting aside for the Mac Book Neo that while it's super smart from Apple from an operational standpoint, right, these things would be recycled. Otherwise, you can put them in the MacBook Neo. Uh, as Ben Thompson wrote , they're effectively free chips because you already paid to make them . That Apple may be running into an issue where they don't have enough of those. Okay. And while Apple's planned trajectory was the next MacBook Neo would be powered by the current generation Bend A19 Pro chips that are in the current iPhone. Right. Which makes sense, right? The Neo would be one behind, one generation behind, and use chips that didn't make it into those phones. Again, I think operationally this is brilliant . But what h appens unless what happens if you have too many MacBook Neos to sell and not enough chips to put in them? What do you do? Because these chips were all made , you know, a year ago, two years ago, and particularly with the A18 Pro, because that process that the that was built on at TSMC is was unusual and is end of life , what do you do? Like, you can't reasonably make new bad 18 pros because it's going to be really expensive. And the whole point of this was to use silicon that was effectively free. So what do you do? And I I it's in some ways, like I think it's incredible that this is a problem. Like I love that the the Neo seems to be popular enough that this could be an issue. But I wonder if Apple thought that. And I wonder, you know, what their what their plan would be if if they get to the bottom of the barrel of those A A eighteen pros. And it seems like there is a thing in here I don't fully understand because I just don't know enough about chips, right? It says this is reading from colpium.com . The MacBook Neo's A18 Pro was built on TSMC TSMC's three nanometer process. That node is now hugely popular and effectively sold out. Apple could in theory beg for a few hot lots paying a premium. So there it the process is still in use, but Apple's not using it. Yeah. Yeah, the N3E. Yeah. So when I was like end of life, it was end of life for Apple. Um I think other people were using it. Okay, so there are now lots of people okay. Now you've helped me understand that. I was got getting a little bit lost in that. Yeah, Apple moved on from this, I think I think pretty quickly. But it is very difficult. That one time, right? And then they they had a different thing. Yeah. It's it's it's very confusing and it's uh it does highlight a bigger problem that Apple may be having, that TSMC is so busy building high dollar NVIDIA chips to power AI systems. For a long time Apple was the biggest player and you know the biggest company in the room when it came to production of silicon. And now that may not be true. And like that's just different. There's still th there are now other really big people. It's not that like I don't think NVIDIA like 'cause well, if you're TSMC, right, like Apple's not going away. Right. Right? Like so I feel like they probably still have a lot of sway, but the thing is it's like what what uh Tim Cor pin is saying, they could probably get TSMC to make them more chips , but then it's going to be more expensive to do that because they're gonna have to pay to jump the queue. Like TSMC would probably let them, but they would charge them for the for the privilege. Right. And on a five hundred dollar laptop, yeah. That's difficult. Like and this is the issue. Every every scenario Apple could run now, of which there are many different things they could do, all of it is going to eat their margin . Yeah. Because even if 'cause the other thing which is really funny is and this is also another margin thing, even if they were able to make more chips, they're not binned chips, they're gonna have to disable a core. They're like they'll be better chips . Right? Yeah. But then they have to disable GPU core. So then these chips are of the same spec as the previous ones. Yeah. I think that this is a fascinat ing thing that they have done. Like a great idea, but what they didn't account for was what if this product is very popul ar? Yeah. Isn't that wild? It is wild. And I feel like maybe they what they should do, they should have put the team that's in charge of the fourth iPhone slots forecasting into this. Team, they overshoot all the time. You know, they need a bit of that forecasting for the Neo. Do you see? Do you see the report that's like Apple's making an iPhone Air 2 no matter how bad it sells? Like, oh, okay. Um that was a very funny headline. I like that headline. Yeah. So yeah, yeah, it's I mean look, Apple they're the best at this in the world. Certainly, they had lots of meetings about this, and even if they were caught by surprise by the demand of this computer, um, I think they've got a uh surely they have some sort of plan. Um and I do think it's it's evidence more evidence that the next one will move to the A19 Pro, which will give it 12 gigabytes of memory and I think that'll be that'll be good. Although in my usage of it, like eight gigabytes has been fine. Totally fine. Totally fine. But uh well I I could imagine it does just they end up going for a slightly different process for the Neo. I don't know how you would do this, but like maybe they do need to consider just making like not necessarily relying on just the binned chips. Yeah. Because c it looks like this product is going to be a long term success now. Mm-hmm. And so maybe there is a slightly different thing they need to work out for how they can produce enough chips for this reliably. Yeah . I don't know how you do it. But maybe it's just one of those things of like, oh okay, as long as it's always kind of going along with the iPhone, you just end up with scale. You just you just m you you you bring it the cost down due to scale . But maybe it can't just only rely on BIN . Um but the fascinating thing to have happened to them. It's obviously not expected. It does feel like this computer is a much bigger hit than anybody would have assumed. Uh-huh. Um and and ultimately it's because Apple have one made something cool and two marketed it cool. Yeah. Like they've done a very good job marketing this product and it's made it actually a thing, not just an option. And I think that is really weird. It's fascinating. Um I think it's great. I think it's great. For those of you ripping apart your MacBook Neos, you can now get parts in the self service repair pro program. So that's good news. It's good news. If you break something you can you can order it up. I wonder if you can get keyboards like you could maybe change your keyboard color. Stricts the options the options you can order to compatible parts and Apple considers color compatibility issue. But through the magic of buying two of them, you could swap parts around. You could. So I think you should look to do that. I mean, I've got a citrus and an indigo . That'd be a horrible Yeah, I'm not sure that one's gonna work. Really bad. I think that one's gonna work. Really bad. Interesting . Um I wanted to also mention uh an article from Antonio G. D. Benendetto uh on The Ver ge , uh where they they've been really been on the beat of like the Neo and the PC and they asked for three uh companies to send the products that they think compete with the Neo and they got a product from Asus, Lenovo, and Asa . If you don't mind, I would like to read two paragraphs from this article, which is really good. Like I re I recommend going to read this article. It's really good. But I I think this gives a real interesting kind of like state of the industry and the Neos here. The floors shown by all three of these Windows laptops, lackluster screens, crummy sounding speakers, and middling trackpads are almost impossible to avoid on laptops in this price r ange, but the game has changed, the MacBook Neo exists, and it smokes all of them in the quality of life territory. It's got a brighter, more colourful screen, a trackpad you can easily click anywhere, a sharp webcam that does your face some justice and speakers that don't assault your ears. It even has a hinge you can open smoothly with one finger, the Windows laptop snap closed or slide around if you try to do the same. I've heard murmur that some PC laptop makers are aiming to release proper NEO competitors this year, but it's going to be difficult for any PC company to compete on price and hardware quality. Apple manages it with the NEO thanks to its vertical integration, complete with its own oper ating system and in-house chip. PC makers have to figure out how a way to stop cost cutting the wrong corners, like screens, trackpads, and speakers, and they need to do that without raising prices. That's going to be hard , especially now. But if they can't, the NEO will be the easy answer again and again . I really liked this. I liked the reviews. There's like mini reviews of each of these computers. And I like that analysis at the end because it it reminds me of the article that Joanna Stern wrote for The Verge for the Apple at fifty thing. Uh just saying that, like, you know, when Joanna was the laptop reviewer at The Verge, basically the meme was every article was for $200 more you can get MacBook Air. Yeah. But now it feels like for $200 less you can get a MacBook Neo. Because like some of these products, like they're all in the kind of seven hundred dollar price range, but a couple of them were discounted. That one of them was like a one thousand dollar laptop that you could now get for seven hundred dollars. So it's still not as cheap as the Neo and Yeah, I mean uh they're right. You know, Apple that's always been Apple's game, but boy, they leaned into it this time. Yeah, it's always been their game, but that game didn't help them produce cheaper products. Yeah. It it helped them make more margin on their products. Exactly. But now they've kind of shot themselves in the foot a little bit, maybe. Yeah . Yeah, but it it does put PC makers in in in trouble and and it reminded me uh Marquez had a video on his channel a couple weeks ago basically looking at this, but his point and some other points uh other people I've seen make this point is one way that PC manufacturers get costs down is bloatware. Right. They make a deal with McAfee or Norton or, you know, whoever, that software gets loaded on the computer and it takes some money off of the price, right ? And what that means is that in addition to your PC being less well built and you know uh maybe not as nice of a screen, all these other things mentioned in that article, you also have to deal with Windows, which is a kind of an all time low, I think, in tur or at least a recent time low in in terms of opinion, and it comes with a bunch of crap on it. And it's like you compare that to the Neo that also works with your iPhone, right? Like that's that's the thing that Apple's tapping into this in a lot of ways. Like you have your messages and your photos and your notes on your phone. What if they were all on your computer? And that computer were yellow, right? It's the genius of this computer just continues to astound me that that Apple can attack all of this stuff in all these different ways. And if you're Lenovo or HP or whoever and you're looking at this, it's like it can't feel good. You know, it's like how can you how can you manage this ? So that's rough . This episode of Connected is brought to you by FidBod. When you want to change your fitness level, it can be hard to know how to begin. It's a complicated world out there when it comes to working out. That's where Fitbod comes in. It's easy and affordable, and it builds a fitness plan just for you. Because everyone's fitness path is different. So Fitbod uses real data, your data, to make sure they're customizing things exactly to suit you. 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Fitbod.me slash connected for twenty-five percent off your membership and your customized fitness plan. Our thanks to Fitbod for the support of our bodies, this show, and relay. I was listening to upgrade, as one does . And y'all were talking about y'all's origin stories with Apple. And I was like, hey, I'm gonna do that. And then I remembered I have a podcast. Yeah. You can do that. I can do that. And feder ica's gone, so maybe he can do his next week, you know? He'll he'll be back. Um Space Jamming . But I thought uh I just want to talk about this a little bit. I I've done it in various places over the years, but kind of like went it all and one place. What really jumped out at me in the upgrade episode was y'all's comments around how you and Jason were like crested the two big waves, right? Jason, like in the Apple II era , like so many people, Jason's age, like the Apple II is what is like what defined their youth and why they do what they do now. And then I'm the iPod. And you're the iPod. Yeah. And I actually am kind in the middle middle, but I'm I'm closer, much closer to you than to Jas on. Yeah. But I am not either of those things really. Mm-hmm. Um I'm with only I'm only three years older than you. Is that right? Two years older than you? What year were you born? Eighty-six. Two years. Two years. Obviously much younger than Jason. Um why are you doing is this what you you're lashing out because Veter does Yeah, I guess so. I guess so. Um You know, and I I've got those early stories, like I'm pretty sure my first grade classroom had an Apple II, but I'm not sure if that's an actual memory or one I've like retconned into my memory. Hard to say . Um, my first grade teacher was this little lady named Mrs. Brown. Pretty sure we had Apple II in her classroom, but my element ary school had Macs for sure. But they were just like there was one not every classroom had one and it was basically like some educational games. And they were all like beige, all in ones. I mean, this was the, you know, the early to mid nineties . Um but it really clipped for me in 2001 in high school at the high school newspaper. And that's where my story and Jason's story and actually Gruber's story are very similar where we were at our student newspapers. I was at high school and my college paper. I think both of them were just at their college paper, but uh that's where it clicked for me. I was like, oh, I can like use a Mac to make things that I want to make. And like that's still kind of my ethos when I think about the Mac today. Uh for me, though, because I was a little earlier than you, it was like Mac OS eight point six and mac OS nine on a bunch of beige Macs in two thousand and one. Right. Two thousand and one was the the beginning of the OS ten era. There were colorful, you know, G3s, but we didn't of those because like the newspaper room kind of got like hand-me-down Macs from the classrooms. But eventually we got OS 10 on a bunch of colored iMac G3s. Um, I remember distinctly setting the wallpaper to match the color of the iMac, right? So like the lime one had a green wallpaper, blueberry one had a blue one. No one cared but me, but I cared. It's important though. Yeah. No one cares, but I care. And in that transition, we moved from back in the day, Mike, you're not gonna believe this, but there used to be a thing called newspapers, and the way they were printed is you would do your design on the computer. For me, it was Quark Express , you would print it, and then you would cut it out and you would paste it down on a board and that board would get photographed by the printer and they would print that. No, they weren't actually photographing. They were at the end. I mean, initially they were like reading them with some sort of crazy thing and making plates, but the end they had a big Yeah, I mean it was with uh at least the printer we used had a big camera. But um They didn't scan it? I don't think so. That's unbelievable to me. Well, it's like an 11 by 17. It's a you know, a broadsheet. Two of so two of those side by side. Um camera. But then we moved to digital. So we moved to like sending them PDFs. And I learned that in high school I repeated that task in college, because in 2004, when I showed up in my college paper, they were doing paste-ups still. I was like, no, we gotta, what are we doing? We gotta send PDFs. Um when I think about that time period, you know, I think Jason mentioned a teacher that like was really like influential in this for him. Um and I know Gruber has talked about that too. Um so for me it was like the IT person at my high school. And she I think worked at a lot of high schools. She wasn't at our school every day. But I was used to OS 9 where you could basically do whatever you wanted. Like there were no rules. It's like, yeah, just like move files around and, you know, worst case scenario, your system doesn't boot. But OS ten had this thing called permissions that I didn't understand. And I went to go copy like the font folder . So all the computers have the same fonts on them . Probably not legal. But I didn't understand, and at the time Mac OS 10 was new. Uh, and basically it meant that the per the the I replaced like the system fonts and not the user fonts and then I broke all the computers and like she had to come fix them and then like taught me like okay, there's like system stuff and there's user stuff and they're different things. And that's not the way the classic Mac OS worked. And she was like surprisingly cool that just like some kid, some junior in high school like broke five Macs because he wanted to steal fonts between computers. Surprisingly cool with it. And I like I think about that. Like I think about what Jason said and what John has said and other people have said. Like sometimes you just have somebody who is influential at the right time with the right thing, right? And you know, she doesn't remember me. Like, you know, that this was, I'm sure, just one of many headaches she had that week. But it meant a lot to me that she took the time to explain it to me and to teach me, like, oh, these things are different. Um and it grew from there, like, you know, and I ended up with an iPod in 2003. And then I sort of catch up with you, right? Like I'm using a Mac full time. I have an i iPodPod. The is very important to me. Um , but yeah, I thought it was interesting that I'm like a little ahead of you, but sort of kind of in the same same camp. Yeah, because you had a a a Mac before you had an iPod. I think that's a diff big difference to me. Yeah. So in high school I had a h a high school job that through that job, for some reason, the owner I was doing design for them and uh the company had a titanium powerbook that he just let me use as my own computer, which was really dumb because I was in high school. I took that machine to college, I was still working for them through college a little bit, and yeah, so I like I had a PowerBook and it went with me to class and back and forth to work. And like I it was faster than the Power Mac G4 that I had at the college newspaper. So I would bring it to the the paper at night when I was working and I would do all my layout stuff on the power Mac. But if I had like a big like you know uh it wasn't illustrator at the time, but I guess we were using freehand or I don't know, something, um, or like a big Photoshop file, I would do it on my PowerBook because it was faster. And then I would like save it to the network so I could get it on my slower G4 that I was using to lay out the paper . Multicomputer lifestyle, really, if you think about it. Always you had your downstairs power book and your upstairs power mic. That's right. The newsroom was upstairs in the building. That's very there you go. See I knew that Did you? No . Oh man. Okay. The other thing, kind of the the other Apple history thing was The Verge did this uh 50 best apple products. Yes . And I have concerns. Yeah, we we've we very briefly touched on it last week, but I I actually wanted to go through some of the rankings. So they've got their like final ranking that was voted on by readers of the website. They were pre-picked by, I believe, just Neli and David. I haven't yet listened to their two-hour episode for members where they go through the list. I it's on my podcast list to listen to. Um, but they have the the list, and I thought we could maybe go through it. Uh how would you like to go through it? We're not gonna we're not gonna go through all fifty. Yeah. I think we just talk about maybe the top several and then I have some like a top twenty and we'll go from twenty to one. Okay. We'll do that. All right. So this is the way that they have done this is not how I would do it, where it's software, services, and products. I don't think I would do it this way. But I don't know. Maybe I would. I'm not sure. Um so we've got 20. Original iPod mini. Cute. Right. Gotta be in there. So we what we should say . There's a difference in ranking between best and most important And as someone who does a lot of this stuff, like in my writing, I struggle with this. Like some of these things they chose, I would not have put in either list because they maybe they're maybe the yes, the iPad 2 is better than the first iPad, but it's not more important than the first iPad. And every iPad after that is better. So you didn't follow that rule either. Like that's tricky, I think, and depending on how you interpret interpret you know best or most important, how you vote uh can change things. And so, you know, I think the the iPod mini actually kind of strikes both like super important . It turned the iPod into a fashion item, right? And that's that was a huge moment. You could argue the iPod mini saved Apple. You could make that argument. Yeah. Uh because lots of people make the argument that it was like the iPod, right? And the iPod mini was the one where it it went from a thing to a thing everyone wanted. Like that was the one. Uh nineteen FaceTime It seems it seems high to me that it's here. But also it is like it's important a verb to describe a video Yeah. Right. It is. Like nothing else really like Zoom exists, but you don't really think about zooming grandma. You know? Like for for personal video calls, FaceTime is is very, very popular . Eighteen, Power Mac G three. I don't understand it. I don't get it. Why what are we doing? Yeah . You know, Jason said something interesting on upgrade , like a lot of people were actually mad about this computer because pros didn't want a blue and white computer and it it it did retain one A D B port and you could get a SCSI card for it. Like it was a transitional machine in a lot of ways. Yeah. I love this machine because that high school job, like this was actually the first computer I used there. And I have that exact Macintosh in my office right now. Like I kept it. Yeah. It's look the Power Mac G three is amazing and I lusted for one. There are just many more Macs that are not higher than it. Yeah. Have the IMAX G four we're not gonna talk about because it's ranked twenty-one on this list. Yes. The Power Mac G three, while a great computer, is not number eighteen. No. It's not. Um there's a lot of recency bias and stuff in into this list. I wouldn't call the Power Mac G3's inclusion or recency bias. When did that computer come out? Uh 1999. Yeah, you said this before recency. Like this is not recent. This is not recent. Or like I think Gruber and John Circus were like, Oh, the kids the kids are voting these Mac plus the Mac S E thirty, you know, that stuff's further down. But it's this isn't like the kids. The kids didn't all vote for the Power Mac G three to be eighteen. I am I am curious who voted for the Power Mac G three. Uh yes. You know? But um seventeen is Apple Pay, which I think is the highest service on this list. And well it it depends on w what what you count airdrop as, which is number sixteen. I think airdrop's a feature. It's feature. It's a feature, not a product. Yeah. I mean Apple Pay is very important. Yes. Like Apple kept we were making fun of it, but like they were mentioning Apple Pay in all of their marketing for Apple at fifty. Mm-hmm. Because it is like it's a fundamental thing in life. Yeah. And what it did in the US, because we didn't have contactless payment here really before Apple Pay, not the way we do now. You know, y'all were ahead of us in that. Mm-hmm. But Apple Pay is what made contactless payment popul ar in the US to a point now where if I go to a place that doesn't support Apple Pay, I'm actively annoyed because I just want to use my phone. I want the security that the store on the other end doesn't get my actual credit card number, right? Or your physical credit card, which is like that. Yeah this mad thing that happens in America where they just take your card away from you. Yes. Um even though I feel like that's changing too. More places I feel like are doing the thing like at restaurants where like you pay at the table. That that I think is coming around. And I think Apple Pay is part of that too, right? People wanna wanna tap to pay. Um so yes, I think I think it being the top service makes a lot of sense . I wanna check what it is. Like the UK Apple Pay Limit I, feel like would be quite surprising to you. It's low, isn't it? No, it's massive. It's like so technically there is no limit. It's just what the retailer wants it to be. Whoa. Like I've paid hundreds of pounds on Apple Pay . Yeah . I'm I pr I probably have two . Okay . There you go. Probably just at the Apple store. Um ber sixteen was airdrop . Again, I also feel like I I get it. I get the airdrop I get airdrop being high if in the way that Apple Pay is high. Yeah. It's um it's a good example of the ecosystem factor, right? Yeah. That I even though with Airdrop specifically that's broken down a little bit because it's it's it is supported on some Android phones now, but generally it,'s like an ecosystem feature. And I mean, I use it all the time, dude. Like, cause I've got, just like you, like I've got a development phone that's on a different Apple ID. So I can't like save a file to photos and it show up on my Mac . I just airdrop stuff to myself all the time. And it's it's uh it's a it's really a like a critical part of how I work . Uh number fifteen is iPhone five S. Yeah . I have a problem with the description for this one. Uh two words, touch ID. That's fine. Two more, iOS seven. The moment Apple ditched its schiomorphic design and embraced the world in which everything was digital. This is a lot of people's all-time favorite iPhone. This is some severe, severe retconning for iOS 7's impression on the world at the time that it launched. People were pissed at iOS 7. You think Iowa you think iOS 26 is half baked. You know, try iOS seven. Yeah that was like because it was, right? Like the story is it was put together very quickly because it was when Johnny took over from Four Store. Mm-hmm . So like iOS seven, I liked it , but it was very problematic. Yeah. My my initial reaction to this being on the list was the you got the wrong phone. The five should be on the list. But then I sort of stopped and thought about it a bit more. Touch I D. Touch ID. It was 64 bit. And so Apple was really flexing its silicon muscles at this point. Um I didn't even think about Iowa seven, honestly, coming on this phone. Like didn't even cross my mind that that would be a factor until you read that. But I do have I do think that it is weird to me that in this so spoilers, in this top twenty , that is the most modern iPhone. Yeah. I feel like no and look . I feel like the fact that the six plus is not up here is wild to me. Because no one wants no one's using phones that small as the iPhone five S anymore. Yeah. And like there are no big phones on this list, and the biggest phones are always the most popular phones. That is is very weird to me that they said that's and the si sixx and plus like we talked about it for years, right? Because it wrecked Apple's results for a long time. Yeah. Because it catapulted the phone to all new heights. Yeah. Oh, what about the iPhone 10? Yeah, why does the 10s on this list? That's yeah, that's the like when I wrote down my list of like products they shouldn't have picked, the 10 S was first. It's like why why is that there? Why is that there? Come on, the 10s? Yeah. Well because also you've got the ten S Max . But why not the 10? Like if you're gonna choose one of those phones, it's the ten. Between the 10 and 10 S Max. I don't know. I need to listen to their deliberations. I'm sure they've got some Oh I was mm. Well they say the iPhone ten was Apple's big anniversary redesign of a bigger screen and a new notch at the top, but it took another year to get it right. The ten S Max was it was fast , it had face ID, and it was the smoothest iPhone. Yeah. It didn't there was nothing wrong with the 10. Yeah, I know. I don't know, man. They they basically repeated that logic on the podcast. Like, what are y'all talking about? Like the 10 like the I think actually the 10s and the 10 face ID was no different. I think it was a later phone where they added like the horizontal unlock and stuff. Yes. I mean look the the the thing about the 10s over the 10s Max is it came in two siz es. Like that is a that is a big deal. That's the biggest change, I think, that matters. Yes. Yes. Anyway. And it was gold. We're never gonna get through this list. We're just talking we're talk we're spending more time talking about the things that aren't on it. I love it. Uh where are we? Okay, fourteen. The original AirPods Pro. Great. Yes. We can all agree and we can move on. Fantastic. 13. The Apple IIE . You know, I think it's good. I think Okay, you know, I was expecting another 20-minute diversion. No, no, I mean uh I won't do it because y'all covered it really well, but like it sustained Apple for a decade when the Mac wasn't a good computer yet. Yeah. Uh 12. The original AirPods. Yeah, I think so. I mean, they you know I could I could maybe argue that we don't need AirPods and AirPods Pro in here, but I think we do. But I think it's AirPods 2, not AirPods . Yes. Okay. Because I think AirPods 2 was the one that became a cultural moment. I don't think it was the original. Because the first ones looked kind of goofy. Like I I remember and sure a lot of people had this experience, right? With the first iPhone or the first Apple Watch. Like you feel self-conscious about it? Yes. Yes. Boy, I had that with the first AirPods big time. I was like, I feel like everyone has noticed this. And you know, it's I think it's probably like the madmen scene of like I don't think about you at all. But it felt like, oh, I'm in the gym or I'm at the grocery store or whatever and I'm wearing these and like oh look at Future Boy over there. But the AirPods too I think really were when they when they took off . Ugh, okay . Next. The original iPad. Yep. Absolutely. Yep. I can't believe this isn't top ten. It's it's surprising because I have a lot of problems with number nine . Okay, what is number nine? Well we gotta do number ten first. Oh s I'm sorry. I thought okay. That's how you keep people listening. It's about retentions. I love it. Ten is the iPod with the click wheel, fourth gen. Yes. I agree with this. This is when this is when they went away from the horrible buttons. Well, that was my favorite iPod because it was my first one. But but a couple things happened. The click wheel one, yes, made a lot more sense to a lot more people. It's also when the price started coming down in a more meaningful way. It's where they added color was to the like I think when most people think about the iPod, this is the one they picture. You know, this one, maybe the you know, maybe the fifth gym with video, but this was sort of when the iPod found itself because clearly the click wheel was the way to go. And before this, they had buttons around the outside, then they had, you know, the four buttons across the top. The Clickwheel started with the mini, that's where I where it first debuted , but like Clickwheel iPod is the iPod in a lot of people's mind, I think. And so yeah, 10, 10 is great . Uh number nine is the slim unibody iMac. WHA WHY WHAT WHY WHY WHAT THOSEN TO BE ON THIS I mean, they didn't redesign it for 15 years. It's just not I I I just don't know. Like if you're gonna talk about the iMac, you have the G3, the G4, the G5, I get all that. They were all in this in this list somewhere, I think. Um but then why like the slim unibody iMac? Why not because like it's a very, very, very popular computer . Like the 27-inch iMac? Yeah. But like why not then why not the Red iMac? If you're talking about best, that's the best version of this. They're not talking about best . I actually don't think they even caught they just called top 50. I know. And I guess they can decide. Um and maybe maybe in people's mind, Slim Unibody IMAC encompasses all of them. Right? But it just all of what though? Like from Like the regular IMAC, the the five K Retina, you know, 'cause when these first came out, they they weren't retina, right? They were like 1080p or something. Okay I don't know. It just it strikes me as strange that uh that it's such a broad product because this product lasted basically twelve or thirteen ye ars and like I mean they are but they are counting from twenty twelve to when it ended. Yeah. Like they're not they're I think they're like specifically not trying to pick specific ones, right? Yeah. So like I think this is fine. Yeah . It's like a very broad brush that it that there's it's like if it was aluminium essentially they're they're counting it here. And I think it's I don't think it's top ten. No. But I do I do think it's inclusion makes sense to me. Okay. And I guess I'm a little surprised that it's top ten. Like, do do that many people have an affinity for this computer? I guess. I mean it was around for such a long time. How could you not, right? And like I loved my retina i Mac. And I loved the iMac Pro that came after it, but it strikes me as odd that it's not so high. All right, number eight, Wedge MacBook Air. Dude, it changed laptops. Yeah. What more do you need to say? Number seven. We're gonna just gonna blow for it. Bundai Blue IMAC. Too low on the list. But You think so? I think so . I mean all right, so Okay, can I I'm just gonna blast through the rest because I think it's important to put it in context. Okay. Six, iPhone four, five, mac OS ten, four, the original iPod, three, the original Macintos h to the M1 chip one original iPhone. So where would you put the Bondi Blue iMac ? I think I would go I think I'd maybe swap it with the original with the original iPod, I think. So you would say that the Bondai Blue iMac over the iPhone 4 ? Maybe this is the important versus best thing again. But like without the Bondai Blue iMac, you never get to the iPhone four. You never get to the iPod. And I don't agree with that. No. I d I seven just feels low. It just feels low. I don't think it maybe it feels low. I don't think it's higher than any of these. Maybe maybe. Although the M1 chip one is still a weird thing to put in here. Like I, wouldn't put that in at all. Yeah This is a little strange. So like if you take that away, now it's six, but I don't. I also do I well, okay. So for me, I would do products. So Mac OS 10 and the M 1 chip are not in this list at all. Ooh. You just do hardware products. I would just do products. Like you have to be able to hold it, I think is is important to me. Well you can hold OS 10. It came on CDs. That's incredible. I know what you mean. I I know what you mean. Because then it's like what all of Mac OS ten? Why not all of the iMac? Right? Like why not all of the iPod? Yeah. And and they made a good case on the VergeCast for I mean there are good cases you can make. I'm just saying this if it was my list, but this isn't my list. And I think with their list being what it is, I don't I wouldn't put the Bondi Blue iMac over any of these. Okay . Okay. Do you know it's been 10 years exactly since I started collecting all those IMAX? That's wonderful. It was in my like photo of the day widget in widget smith and I was like, holy smokes. Then you should write something about it again. I should . I think you should write something. I actually, okay. I have not bought a computer in a long time. Like a collection computer. Yeah. I've really I've really been good . Uh I have something coming to me that I've been looking for at least 10 years, if not longer. And one I became aware of one and it is heading to me. And that's all I'm gonna say. You can't do that. Because I'm also gonna make a video on it. What is it? I can't tell you. Is it related to the iMac? I can't tell you that. I just thought about it because I thought about the ten years since I I bought a list of iPhone. I'll tell you when we're done. Um Okay. I don't know where we are now. IPhone four being the top iPhone on the list, other than the original. Other than the original Yes. Like the four was beautiful and amazing and the run of screen and FaceTime and all those things. I still think they need more iPhones higher up, but I do agree that like the only phone that could maybe be close to the original iPhone is the four. Yeah. Um the four just so good . Um Mac OS 10, which you mentioned, really uh what they wrote and what they talked about was m Mac OS ten being the connector between you bought next and that technology now powers everything . I get it. Then why is it not number one then? Yeah, well I mean that's the problem, right? It's like these things, you know. Um the the issue is I think the disconnect, whilst this is a great I think this is an incredible project that they did, and I'm so happy that they did it. Oh, yeah, we're arguing about like an amazing thing here. I think the problem is trying to take David and Neely's opinions and putting them against the masses is the issue. Because they make a really good point for why you would include this, but that point doesn't match with the results, I think. Yeah. Because if you're making the point of we include Mac OS 10 because you don't have anything else? Well then Mac OS ten should be number one. But it isn't number one, it's number five. Mm-hmm. It's like the same as including the M1 chip at all. Why is it there? So what do they give for the M one chip? Which isn't number two. Number two. The moment Apple goes from a company that makes its own processors to an absolute silicon powerhouse, the M one first shipped on a MacBook Air and offered a combination of power and battery that its competitors still can't match. It's like I yeah, I don't know . Yeah, so like here's the thing. So Zoe says Neil I says Mac OS Thomas is personal number one. It's like I get that. But the problem is then you let people vote on it and it doesn't make sense anymore to me. But anyway, here we are. Uh five was the OS ten . Four was the original iPod. Yep. Number three was the original Mac . That That I'm gonna say something that I think that's a little bit like the iOS 7 thing. It's it's just a hair of like revisionist history. Yeah, I think I'm gonna say a thing that I'm not sure I agree with . We put the Mac on a pedestal. The original one you mean? Yes . Yeah . Like the the thing that I've walked away from the Apple at fifty book, which I just finished last night. The poke book? The poke book. You have two photos in that book? I know you do. Which is really my favorite thing. Okay, we don't talk about that. I had forgotten about it. So okay, we'll just we'll just tell a story. So a couple a couple nights ago at like eleven PM reading this book and I come across one of my phot os and I turn to Mary and be like, My photo's in this book. And I texted you and Jason and Jason was like, Yeah, don't you remember? Like I I got them in touch with you and you like signed a thing. And it's like, oh yeah, I forgot all about that. Um, because it happened in the middle of our fundraiser, uh St. Jude campaign. And like anything that happens during the fundraiser, I don't remember other than the fundraiser. So you know, you probably told me as well. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Two photos. I don't remember. I'm very I'm very cool. It's very cool to be part of it. Very thankful they reached out. Yeah. Yeah. Um I'm sorry I didn't remember initially and was angry for a second. Um , the original Macintos h was it changed everything, but only because later models were successful . Say the Lisa had been successful and that there had been the Lisa two, three, four, five, whatever. Then we would say, oh, the original Lisa is the top of the list. But it's not because it didn't change the world, right? The Lisa was too expensive, it was flawed in lots of ways. The original Macintosh gets held up because later models, when jobs was gone, like the max success, so what I learned from the pogue book, or what I what re what was reinforced to me in the pogue book was John Scully and other Apple executives are why the Macintosh was successful in the long run. Because if it was just a closed box that you can't do anything with, then it was gonna live a a short life. Just saying. You know, Jason made a joke about like the skullly uh reputation repair tour or whatever is like you know it's not it's not a bad thing. Yep. Like, yeah, he made some mistakes. And yeah, maybe you don't sink all the money into the Newton, but boy, if you had not let the team build a Mac with slots and add color to the Mac and expand the Mac in different form factors, the original Macintosh would not be number three on this list . Alright, then we've got the M1 chip and the iPhone. Yeah. Um I agree with you. I would not put the M1 chip on this list, but I deserves to be in the top ten if it's gonna be on the list, I think. Yeah. Um and I don't think you can make this list and not put the iPhone number one. Yeah, the original iPhone, I think, was always gonna be number one. Like when I saw this, my thought was like the iPhone wins. I mean it would, it's probably the greatest piece of consumer technology of all time. Yeah. Like I don't think there's anything better. Like I know that there are a lot of things that had to happen to get it I got a question for you. Yeah . What changed the world more, the original iPhone or the original Mac ? The iPhone. I think so too. Yeah, the iPhone changed the world more. I think the iPhone's legacy or impact will be felt much longer. Yeah. And what really makes me think that is that there are so many people in the world that do not have and may never have a desktop or a notebook computer. Yeah. But they have a smartphone. And it may not be an iPhone. It's probably not an iPhone, but their whatever phone they've got owes a lot to the original iPhone. Well, because I think for the Mac , the Mac brought Microsoft into the into the into the world, right? In a way. Right? Like people having perman have Android as well, but I I think the iPhone is successful at a level that Apple have not been with with computers ever. Mm-hmm. Like the amount of market share that they have. It's completely different. So all right. Take that, the verge. We love you. I don't think they need to take anything. I I need I'm all I'm very behind on the verge cast, but I do want I'm meaning to listen to where they also give their own rankings and, I am very confident that they're also unhappy with the ranking that was given by the people. Yeah, yeah. This episode of Con nected is brought to you by Mercury Weather. Mercury Weather is a thoughtfully designed and frankly beautiful weather app that shows all your essential weather details at a glance. Is this gorgeous colorful interface that dynamically adapts to conditions. A little touch that I love. So if it's like warm and sunny, it's got a warm orange color palette. But if it's cold, you're gonna have icy tones or deep blue on a Mercury uses a glanceable chart layout to present the hourly and daily forecast in a way that feels intuitive right away. And if you're traveling, Mercury weather is awesome. They have a trip forecast feature that automatically shows the weather at your destination right in your daily forecast timeline. So you can see what the weather will be, where you're going, not just where you are. All these features are awesome. The design is awesome, but that trip forecast feature really is great. I'm getting ready to do some traveling. I have a lot of traveling this summer, and it's a great way to see what to expect. And when the weather gets serious, Mercury offers storm and hurricane tracking with maps, live positions, forecast paths, cones and intensity, plus widgets that can keep tabs on a specific storm or the closest one right from your home screen. Mercury Weather's gorgeous interface makes it a delight to check the weather every day, even on gray and rainy ones. And the apps' business model is simple. No ads, no selling of user data. Mercury is available on all Apple platforms minus TVOS. You can download it, use the standard features for free, and upgrade to Mercury Premium to unlock all the features. Go to MercuryWeather.app slash connected to download it now. Use that link to let them know that you came from this show. It's MercuryWeather.app slash connected to go try it out and get the standard features for free. That link is in the show notes. Go check it out. My thanks to Mercury Weather for the support of the show and all of Relay Mike, WBC is around the corner. Yep. Which is horrifying. Um and you had the idea of like we could talk about what we would like to see at WBC beyond the obvious Apple intelligence being a thing that matters. Yeah, what do what do we want that's not Apple intelligence? When do we want it now? And also basically what this ended up being, by and large, for me, is here is mostly a list of little things that bother me and I and I would like to talk about a couple of them and then also here's some things that I'm not gonna get, but I want them anyway. Okay. So can I give you my list? Please. These are not ranked in any way. They're just these were the th when I sat down to write today, these were the things that I wrote down while I was on the bus on the way to the gym. Which is where I do quite a bit of connector prep now. The iPhone's a great thing. I can't wait to have an iPhone where I can look at two apps by side by side by the way, because that will make my going to the gym on the bus doing connected work much nic er. Yeah . Okay. Hit me. I want watch OS to be I've s I've said tweaked, but I actually want them to r kind of give it another go, just in general . It's been like three years since the redesign. Like the let's do it again. The redesign didn't go far enough. Yeah. The restructuring, I mean, not I mean they had liquid glass, but like the the changing what the buttons do kind of thing. It's not even that. It's like I I think that the concept of apps the and the way that they are launched on Watch OS shouldn't exist. Like I I don't think we should have a list of apps on Watch OS . And like you scroll through the list and get the app you want. I I think that the smart sta ck and widget kind of faux idea on Watch OS is really good and tapping one of those to then get a full screen experience is good . But I I'm kind of of the mind that , and maybe this is very focused on how I use my watch at least . That I don't ever feel like I should be scrolling through a list of apps to get something. I feel like if it's if I've not got it as either a complication or in the smart stack, it's not important enough to be on my Apple Watch. I had not thought about it this way , but I don't disagree with you. Like I feel like I launched things from complications or the or the stack. Yeah, and if there is an app that I access through the list of apps . That app should be encouraged to make something that lives in the smart stack instead. And so I access it that way. I I think Apple needs to push the smart stack a bit further. I don't know why they even have a limit at all. A smarter stack, if you will. Just bigger. Just like you know. Do you remember Glances? Yeah. It was it was like the first take of this. They were horizontal like looks into apps . But like this idea goes back to the beginning that the Apple Watch is not a computer. It should just be a way to get information to me quickly . So I should never be scrolling through an alphabet alphabetical list of apps or navigating an obscene honeycomb to try and find what I'm looking for. Yeah. Like I want to see them go further into widgets, not app experiences. And like that that is the way that I you know I I think by and large on the Apple Watch should come to me, I should not go to it. No it,'s actually funny. I wrote in my list the watch OS smart stack should gain custom widgets. Like, why can't we have widgetsmith in the smart stack? Why can't I build my own things in there? The closest Apple gets right now is you can put three complications in the widget at the top of the smart stack, which I really like. Like I like to have like a complication overflow. But Oh, you that's at the top for you? I interesting. I have it pinned maybe, I guess. You have it pinned. You have it pinned. Yeah. But the uh yeah, but in general I agree with you, like the the watch should be less like a computer and more like a company. Yeah, yeah for real. Why can I only have one of those? I should be able to have infinite. Why am I only allowed one? So I want them to redo it. Um, I also just generally as well, by the way, the workout app, better now, still bad, they have to start again on the workout app. Yeah. It's just not good to navigate anymore. Um, they stopped the kind of constant scroll and made it a bit more like inertia-based again and and like one scroll at a time to go through the different workout types, that is a band-aid, they need to redo the workout app . Um Um, I want to see Apple do some work on liquid glass. Like push it, make some tweaks. There are obvious places that it needs to be improved. There are obviously going to be opportunities to do some new nice things, but just do some work so people feel like you're doing work and make them feel better, you know? Mm-hmm . Apple books , ebook and audiobook syncing . Yeah. They don't have that. So Kindle does this. Huh. It's called whisper sync . So if you have an audible book and a Kindle book, it will sync the position between the two. I want Apple to do this with the e book and audiobook that they offer. That's what I want. I wonder if there's like a pat ent issue or something. I mean maybe . I just don't know. But I still want him to do it. Find a way, you know? Find a way. Uh TV OS. Similarly to watch OS. You need to you need to redo it. Like I don't need apps. I don't need apps on my TV. But if you're gonna have to have them because everybody needs their own space. But it's the future of television, Mike. That's true. Uh but to me the thing about TVOS is the same as it always is. Like you need to do the engineering and the deal making to get everything in the T V app. Just do what's needs to be done and then also get everybody to use the system player. Agreed. That's what I want. That it's not gonna happen. Uh I want some hints that the folding iPhone is coming, just because that'll be fun. You know, a few sessions. Yeah. Make your iPhone apps responsive. Like, you know, there'll be something. I want them. Just give me them. Uh I want Apple to continue the fiftieth celebration and give developers in attendance at WWC the chance to see some cool historic things. I would be sad because I don't have a ticket. So I know. I hope they're gonna do this and I think they might because I know that they have these things going on at Apple Park, right? We've seen it. Yeah. Um they have stuff. And so I think they should let people see it. Uh even if it's just, you know, at Steve Joseph's theatre one day you, can just go around and look at some old Macs. They should do it. Why not? Uh and then my big dream unveil new products. I want a home pod of a display and smart glasses. I know I'm not going to get either of them now, but why not just dream? You know, it's good to dream. That's what I wanted WWE C. It is good to dream. Worldwide dreaming conference. Yeah. Why wouldn't dream continuously? Oh . Yeah. Maybe maybe run that through Claude. I agree with all your list. I I came to this after you did. I was like, oh, you wrote down basically everything I would write down. Um couple other things that I would I would mention is um additional widget sizes. We have a lot of requests for like why can't I have a widget that's the size of an app icon or one that um and this is on Android, which I think is why we get this request , is a widget size that's like one high but four wide. So it's like a bar size. I think that'd be awesome. Um, I certainly would like them and uh think they should just do more of that stuff, especially if the home pop with display is like widget powered, which it seems like it's going to be. More sizes uh would be would be welcome. Um I agree with you on liquid glass. I want them to focus that primarily on Tahoe because I think Tahoe has the most problems. Um I've I've really just gone to accept it on the iPhone. I don't I don't mind it on the iPhone really. Like at my problems with it are all primarily on the Mac . U I wrote App Intense with like eight question marks behind it, like what's going on with that. And the my last one is a focus on control center. Um I think there's a lot of like first party features, especially on the Mac version of Control Center, that you just can't use that they're not options . And I really like the customization of Control Center, but that whole thing is really fiddly. It's really easy to blow up your setup, like moving things around and resizing. I think it should be uh easier for someone who has never done that to like get a foot in the door. I think a lot of people don't know you can customize control center or like never come across that feature. Like how well how could Apple make it uh more useful and easier to use for people? Then you also need to get some third party developers to implement it too. And they need to get yeah. It's it's there's not a there's not a ton of of third party support there. And most it's okay, we'll do it via shortcut or you can launch my app. And like there should be there should be more there . I mean this actually could just go to which control center are you talking about actually? I mean uh both I think the Mac version is worse off than the iPhone ex,cept when it comes to like the rearranging madness, that's horrible on the iPhone. The other thing I wouldn't mind is to be able to sync my control center between devices. Like I would like it to be the same on my iPhone and iPad, but I just dialed in my iPhone and basically never use it on the iPad because rebuilding it and rearranging it's a pain in the butt. So I just haven't. Okay . There you go. There's your list. What is it like uh cupertina start your photo copies, you know? That's right. That's right. Do do what we want. Um I also think I thought this for a long time. I think the general structure of WBC is like fundament ally broken because these features are basically across every platform now, or like three out of the five platforms, or whatever. And you you feel that tension in WBC where Apple's like talking about the iPhone and they mention a feature that uh they already showed off in the Mac section or vice versa. The presentation, the way they do the presentation. The keynote because they don't want to spoil it for later on and then it ends up getting really confusing. Yes. It's like wait, is that feature on both? Or is it just on the iPad? Or like and yes, they're always going to be platform specific features, but for the features that are going to be everywhere, like say that say they're bringing something new to Apple Notes this year. Why can't there be like a productivity section where like this is what's new in notes and reminders? And why is that like shoehorned into an iPhone section or an iPad section? Because that's how you very quickly make WWE C Google I.O. Yeah, that's a good point. IO is the best. If every team gets to present, people are going to be presentinging really bor things. Yeah. Maybe there's a middle ground. Um I'm sure there is. I've just found more and more that WDC WWDC is kind of confusing at tim es. And, you know, that matters for us because we're trying to cover it. And it's like , what is the truth? Because it's it's hard to know sometimes. The way to fix it you're not gonna like is they should always start with iOS. Mm-hmm. Because then they'll cover everything, and then they can talk about the things that are signal that are specific to each platform. Yeah. That's fair. Do they always start with iOS? No. I feel like they don't. Mm-mm. Yeah. In fact, sometimes it's last. Yeah, I feel like if you start with iOS, you'll talk about everything that's going to be on the main platform and therefore may also be on the other platforms and they can mention that and then they can go through later on and talk about the other stuff. But that that's gonna you know, it's gonna really disrupt the f the the kind of excitement of WWE C. Yeah . This episode of the show is brought to you by Steam Clock. Let's just be honest. A lot of mobile apps are pretty mediocre. They're not broken. They're just they're fine. They're okay. But you notice the difference the moment you use something good. 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So if you're building something and you need a mobile team that cares as much as you do, Steam Clock is where to start. Go to steamclock.com/slash connected to get in touch. That's SteamClock. com slash connected. My thanks to Steam Clock for the support of the show and all of Relay . Would you go to space ? What kind of space are we talking about? What what does that mean? Well, because you've got low Earth orbit and you've got like the moon Space space . Right? So like what what are you asking me? Which one? Well, would you go to low Earth orbit? Like would you go to the space station? Uh I would do it if it was commercial and had been going on for a while. Okay . Both of those are basically true now. You know, like Virgin Galactic or whatever, right? Like we're like a few years into that and it's been going fine. I I would do it, yeah. Okay . Would you go to the moon or like deep space? I don't think so. Okay . It feels riskier. I mean it is to a degree, but it feels like it just feels much more fraught, you know ? Yeah . I don't think I would, but I get car seat in the backseat of a car, or I get car sick in the backseat of a car, so maybe that's part of it. Anyways, Artemis 2, M Mike.m-hmm. As we're recording, we have people coming back from the moon. Three Americans, one Canadian. It's the first time people have been to lunar space in fifty-three years, nineteen seventy-two, the end of the Apollo mission missions. And then we did the space shape. They went further. So Apollo previously Apollo 13 held the record for being the furthest away from Earth because they were supposed to land on the moon, then their spaceship exploded and they couldn't land on the moon and they they swung around the moon to get back and that required a longer slingshot around the back of the moon . Uh Artemis II current mission went further. So they are the four people who have gone the furthest away from the planet. Yep. Which just has to be a weird feeling. Like it's very strange. Um and they're on their way back, and this is like captured I think I feel like this has captured the world's attention in a way that I didn't expect. Yeah, I think so. I think people are feel feeling ings about it. Uh she's odd. Like I know I have been too. Like I like the imagery. It's the imagery. That's what it is. I think it is the imagery. I mean these these photos are incredible. And a lot of that is it's views that we haven't seen in a long time. So like the actual images are better, right? Or ever. Or ever. Um those shots of an eclipse where the moon or like the earth uh all that stuff, like the shadows, all of it are just so incredible. Um and I think people are really plugged into it because a lot of other news is depressing . And like this is a thing that is exciting and new and inspiring, right? Yeah. There is something inherently inspiring about exploration, I think. Yep. And and this is an important step to return to the surface. Like, you know, there's always people who are throw cold water on the stuff. It's like, well, why are we just going around the moon? It's like, well, this is a a step to land, just like Apollo eight, which w was the first mission around the moon, underrated mission . That set the stage to land later on. Um same thing here. You know, uh hopefully a future Artemis mission will be able to land and and we'll put uh people back on the moon. It'd be the first woman on the moon, first person of color on the moon. It was all it was all white dudes in the 60s and 70s. Um and so lots of exciting things. And as far as the technology has come, we can learn much more about living on the moon long term, which I think is a potential future . This is a step towards all that, right? Do you think that's like a real thing? I I think it should be . Why ? I think if uh one, well it's not data centers in space, because that's silly. But I do think that ultimately, like long, long term, it benefits humanity to not just be here . Yeah. And I don't think the moon is the it though. No, but you have to do that first. Sure. Because Mars is so much harder. We gotta get really good at the moon . But even as this is happening , the administration wants to cut NASA's budget big time next year. Like this the same week where these people are flying around the moon. You're ruining the feel good part. We were just talking about how it's feel good and making it all feel good. I know. Um I think the other reason it has captured people it is the imagery, but I also think NASA's just done a really good job with the engagement on it. Like um Jim Level uh Uh passed away, I think, last year. A retired Apollo astronaut. He flew on eight and thirteen. So he flew on the first mission around the moon and then thirteen, which was, you know, nearly a disaster. Everyone knows that story because of the movie and that sort of thing, right? Um the he recorded a voice message for them before he died. And and I've got a link to it in the show notes. Um it's moving. He he opens it with like welcome to my old neighborhood. Sick. Damn. Like such a good job. It's really cool. Like, uh, you think you're something? Yeah. Yeah. I was there before you were born. That's so good. Um and so I think all of that, you know, has helped people plug into this . And I think it's also really important in the light of future missions and budget issues and like the SLS rocket itself is a really complicated, probably not good program. Like all of that stuff, um, people need to feel good about it. That's an important thing of it. One reason the you know, there were additional Apollo missions planned, and there were a lot of reasons they didn't happen. Um part of it was NASA had already kind of turned its attention to low Earth orbit. We're going to do a space station, we need a shuttle to go back and forth. Um, but also like the public lost interest in it. And when the public loses interest in something, then they have a harder time understanding what Congress is paying for it, even though NASA is something like 0.3 5% of the federal budget. At its height, it was a s a low single digit percentage. Like it's in the scheme of what the US government spends, this is nothing. Like nothing. And so people are like, ah, it's too expensive. Like I just write that off. Like there's so many other things that we do that matter much less than this. But if people don't care about it, it's hard to justify it. If people don't care about it, it's paid for by taxes, right? Exactly. So and so NASA knows that. And so I think that's one of many reasons they've really leaned into this as a cultural moment . Um and I I hadn't really realized that it had like a broken nerd containment until yesterda y. I went and got a haircut and we were like talking about Artemis. She's like, Have you seen the moon stuff? I was like, Oh, have I seen the moon stuff? You know? Oh pull you. Yeah. And then and then you know she just walked out halfway through my haircut. But um Yeah. It it has broken containment in a way that I did not expect, but I'm very pleased by because it's inspiring and it's exciting and to see um to see people push the boundary of what's known is it is just it's something that we should do. It's like built into humanity, right? We we've done it for forever, right? And so this is another chapter in that story and and it it's it's cool as someone who wasn't around for that stuff, right? Like like my dad is like the perfect age where like um in 1969, the first moon landing, my dad was 14. Like he remembers it. He lived it, right? Like he remembers it being on TV. And like I we don't have that, right? I mean the space shuttle was exciting , but it was flawed and mar and marked by tragedy in a way that Apollo never was, thankfully. And so this is like a return to that. And like m during the launch uh last week, like we just we've had it on TV. Like we've just had the NASA stream on TV at my house. It's like just checking in, right? They're they're gonna land on Friday. Like I'm sure it will be on in our house watching the the re-entry. And that that my kids are excited about it. I think that's great. They landed in the ocean? Yes. Yes, they are. Truly the best way to do a capsule. Russia, uh, the Soyuz lands on land. Um they have parachutes and like retro rockets to slow it down. I mean, if something fails, it doesn't matter if you hit water or land, really. Like if you if you your parachutes don't come out, you're dead either way. It doesn't matter, yeah. Um Russia does it because they have all the land mass, right? Uh we don't compared to them, but the ocean's a really big target and pretty forgiving in terms of like how far off you are . And in those early days, that was important because some of those missions were way off target when they came down. They got better over time. But yes, they will splash down in the ocean and then be towed into San Diego, I think is the the entry point. So hopefully Friday night. Hmm . Very cool. It is cool. It's good news. We should do more of it . We've done it, Mike . We did a podcast. We absolutely did. People don't know, but we cut a whole section where we're gonna talk about window management on the Mac. Yeah. Because Federica's gone and I can't be stopped. You can't stop me. Okay. You wanna talk about window management? No. Okay . I choose to be stopped. Oh well good for you. That's really good. I like that. It's it's good autonomy you got there. If you want to find links about stuff we spoke about, uh head on over to rela y.fm slash connected slash five ninety-eight. Links are, of course, are also in your podcast pla yer. You can leave feedback. There's a link in the show notes for that, or you can go to connectedfeedback.com. You can join and get connected pro, which is the longer and ad-free version of the show. We do it each and every week. It's the best way to support us directly and you get a bunch of great stuff. And in addition to the longer at free episode, you get access to the relay Discord and two members only podcasts and a newsletter and wallpapers and lots of stuff. So go check it out. Mike, can you believe it's just seven bucks a month? I cannot believe that. It's a great deal. It's a great deal. Go sign up. We appreciate you who have . If you want to find us online, you can. Um Federico's at Space Jam , but you know, he'll be around next week. He's the editor in chief of MacStories.net. You can find Mike across many shows here at Relay, and you can find his work at Cortex Brand and his blogging at the enthusiast.net . I am at five twelvepixels.net. That's where I write and I do things . And vibe code now, apparently . Anything else? Where uh you know are you doing space jam? You doing any comic book stuff? I'm not doing space jam. Um I I wasn't planning on doing comic book stuff either. Okay. Yours at home. You got a baby. Most of the time at home. Yeah. I'd like to thank our spons ors this week for making the show possible. They are Fitbod, Mercury Weather, and Steam Clock. You can learn more about them in the show notes as well. And until next week, Mike, say goodbye. Bye-bye. Bye ya.