Suspicious Messages and Future Stalking

On November 16, 2012, 37-year-old Carrie Farver was reported missing by her mother Nancy after she suddenly stopped showing up for work and answering calls. No one had seen Carrie since the morning of November 13th, but her phone was active, sending messages and posting online. Making it seem like she hadn't disappeared at all. Still, Nancy was adamant that something was wrong. The messages didn't sound like Harry. As detectives began looking into Carrie's disappearance, they started receiving reports. That she was stalking and threatening multiple people. For more than two years the behavior continued, growing more intense and dangerous than anyone could have imagined. And by the time detectives finally uncovered what was really going on, They were left trying to entangle a case so complicated. And so bizarre. that prosecutors worried a jury wouldn't believe it was true. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasser. So, Derek, we we wanted to talk about something, right? Yes. Something that is impacting the true crime community and we want to make everyone aware of it and make a call for support for for one of the a very important person to both Derek and I and to the true crime community. Yes. John Lorden, also known as Lorden Arts on YouTube. uh has been in the true crime content game even before me. And I don't know if before you but It's been in a long time, but more importantly, he's just an amazing human being. I've had the opportunity to meet him a few times. I know, Stephanie, you are even closer with him. You had gone through some things and he was there to support you as well. My first memory of John was actually when we first met at CrimeCon many years ago and we had our little table and we were right next to John and John was already kind of like in the game, knew the crime con experience and was super helpful and nice and walked us through the process. And at that point nobody knew who we were. We've talked about it before we had maybe like 10 people come up to our our table. And I just remember how kind he was. And as I talk to people about John over these last couple of days when he made he made a video on his channel, we strongly recommend you go check it out. We're gonna have his link in the bottom of the description here. And as I was talking to people about John and uh wanting to do something for him, I reached out to CrimeCon and they were even saying like John's an angel. Like every year he's he's so easy to work with. He's humble. He's always thanking us for having him here. And it's it's terrible that he's going through this. So For anybody who doesn't know, John recently put out a video, like I just was mentioning that we're gonna we're gonna have the description box with his link and all that stuff, but He basically said that he's been editing his own videos and he's been watching himself on camera for so many years. There's like a joke inside his home where basically he's looking at his own face every single day, not only when he's monitoring his video as he's recording it. but also while editing it. And He noticed something on his neck. that looked different than it has in past videos. So we decided to go get it checked out. And he learned that he does in fact have a mass that is cancerous. So John put out a video. And basically said, listen, I'm gonna have to take the next month off. I'd really appreciate if people stick around. and watch some of the pre-recorded content that I'm gonna be putting out because I'm gonna be unable to record. And you know Not only does he do do a great job for the victims and their families and he's a good representation of what true crime is. The the reality is as creators and we do this full time. If we don't work. We don't make money for our families. And with him going in for the surgery, which Stephanie, you were just texting with him. It's gonna be a rough road. He's not gonna be able to record and Unfortunately, the bills don't stop. Now John's not going to say that directly. He's not looking for a handout. We wanna help him out. We wanna support him and we wanna make sure people go and watch his videos. And so we'll have his YouTube channel at the bottom here. Again, he's he's known. But if you don't know him yet, he puts out great videos and we'd really appreciate it if our community goes over there, supports them, let them know you're thinking about him. Watch the videos, comment on them, like the videos, make sure the algorithm is recognizing him so that he's able to still make some money this time when he's going to be unable to work. But he's also a great human being, so you should be supporting him anyways. He is the best human being. John has been in the true crime game, as Derek said, for a long time. He's an OG. And this is one of the nicest people I know in the world, not just the true crime world. He I I met him years ago when he was doing a podcast with Danielle Hallan. Also a super nice, amazing human being. These like just were two nice, like you said, two angels. Together, they genuinely cared about the cases they were covering. John has always cared. He does very thorough work. His mind works in the way of somebody who's been looking at and examining true crime for a long time. He is A sweet, kind, good hearted, genuinely good person. He's always been supportive of me. He's always been there for me personally and professionally. I just cannot say enough good things about him, and if anybody deserves support in a time like this, it's him. And if anybody doesn't deserve what he's going through right now, it's him. Could happen to any of us too. This is such a scary time. I know I have someone close to me right now who was just diagnosed with cancer. They're going through it, just had surgery and and and this is a healthy person, a young person. four kids and it can it can c happen to anyone in a moment's notice your life can change and thinking about him, thinking about his family and he's gonna get through this. He's the prognosis is very good according to him from his video. Go watch it yourself. But we want to make sure that he's taken care of during this time when he's uh unable to work and uh go over there, drop them a comment, let them know that uh Crime Weekly sent you and that we want you to support them not only now, but going forward. And we're thinking about you, John. You're gonna be coming through this just fine. Unfortunately he won't be at CrimeCon this year and he's a staple there. So uh we have some more ideas planned for how we're gonna help John talking with CrimeCon, but for right now. instantly what you can do to help him is go over there, support his channel, show him some love. We would greatly appreciate it. Absolutely. Thank you so much, guys. We really appreciate it. All right. So let's get into the case. Carrie Leah Farver was born on November 30th, 1974, in Des Moines, Iowa, to her parents Denny, an insurance actuary, and Nancy, a secretary. She was named by her father, as her mother had named her older brother Adam two and a half years earlier. Denny chose the name Carrie after singer Carrie McDowell, a 10-year-old performer who had just appeared on Johnny Carson's Tonight Show singing Somewhere Over the Rainbow. Now Denny and Nancy loved their children endlessly, but by the time Carrie was 18 months old and Adam was four, they realized neither of them was happy in their marriage. And they made the decision to separate while remaining friends. Nancy moved with the kids to Macedonia, a small town in southwest Iowa, with fewer than 300 residents, where her family had been for generations. Even though they no longer lived together, Denny remained very involved, and he and Nancy worked together to make sure their kids felt supported and spent time with both of them. Five years after the separation, Nancy married her first love. A man named Mark, and Carrie served as the flow girl in the wedding. Mark stepped easily into the role of a second father and became an important part of her life. Growing up in Macedonia through the 70s and 80s, Carrie was active in singing and community theater alongside her family, and in school she was part of the Gifted program. From a young age, people described her as an old soul, and she had a way of drawing people in. She was known for being tender hearted, but also protective, and if she saw someone being bullied, she would step in and stand up for them. She didn't speak badly about others and she approached people without judgment, making it easy for her to connect with just about anyone. She was also deeply caring, and if someone around her was struggling, she wanted to help however she could. In 1993, Carrie graduated from Carson, Macedonia High School, and she went on to attend the University of Kansas for a few years before going to work as a secretary. In 1997, she started dating someone she had met at college, but that relationship didn't last long. As they were breaking up, Carrie learned she was pregnant. Now, she and this boyfriend, they tried to stay together, but it didn't work. They ultimately went their separate ways before the baby was born, leaving Carrie preparing to become a single mother. Nancy and her husband Mark made it clear that Carrie and the baby could live with them. They would help however they could, so they were very supportive. of her pregnancy. And I think that's important to note because at this point Carrie's very young, right? She's just started college, basically. She's in college. And not only is she about to become a mother, but she's going to become a single mother. And a lot of parents could kind of maybe focus more on the bad decisions you made or the things that you had done that didn't work out the way you had planned. But it seems as if Carrie's parents, her mother and her stepfather. We're like, Hey, you know, stuff happens, don't worry about it. We're gonna, you know, welcome a new person to our family. You can live with us. We'll help you in any way that we can. We'll make sure you can still you know, be able to achieve your th your things and go to college and do all those things that you wanted to do and plan to do, so you can get your life started correctly, and we will, you know, basically be a support system for you and help you with the baby since the father isn't going to be around. As you should, right? I mean I I we hear these cases where parents will kind of like disown their child after a m something like this, I wouldn't call it a mistake, but at minimum. if something like this happened with Tunley or Peyton, regardless of how I felt personally Her child. is you know, not to blame for any of this. And they're still your flesh and blood and they shouldn't have to suffer because of your opinions on what their mom did. So Yeah, I mean, this is the right call. It should be common sense. It should be what you do. Well, Nancy also suggested that Carrie, who was really good with computers, take a six month course so she could build a career in that field. And this was right around the time too that computers were a new and emerging thing and careers in computers were taking off, so that's actually good advice. And this course was expensive, but Nancy's parents, so Carrie's grandparents, Max and Luann, they stepped in and they paid for it. So overall it looks like Carrie has a great family. Yeah, they're supportive, that's for sure. Supportive, they're you know, that they put their money where their mouth is. Basically, they're not just a a family system that's like, hey, we support you, but then when you need them and it's like nowhere to be found. They actually pour in words and actions. So Carrie enrolled in this course and a little more than halfway through it, she gave birth to her son, Max, who was named after her grandfather. And also just a great name in general. That's a timeless name, Max. I love it. So after Max's birth, they moved in with Nancy and Mark, and Carrie took to motherhood immediately, Max being the center of her world. And while she was raising him on her own without active involvement from his father, she had this strong support system with her mom, her stepdad, her dad, and her grandparents all Helping raise Max with Carrie, which is amazing. So 10 weeks after having Max Carey completed the course, and then she actually got a job working with computers, and this gave her a strong start in a new career. But things weren't easy. Which is understandable, and Carrie's life wasn't always stable. So over the next decade she would get married and get divorced twice, and she changed jobs multiple times. Now eventually Carrie was diagnosed with bipolar disorder and she began taking prescription medication. There were times when she stopped taking it because she said it made her feel numb, but over time things began to level out, and her life became more stable. She and Max eventually moved into a historic home in Macedonia that had belonged to her grandparents. And Carrie loved it. She loved the interior decorating. She did all she could to make it her own. She made the home warm and welcoming, filling it with a mix of antiques that had been in the family for generations and newer furniture that she had picked out. The home meant everything to her, and being so close to her mom and stepdad meant they could continue playing an active role in her and Max's lives. By the spring of 2012, Max was 14 years old and things were going well. In May, Carrie started what she considered her dream job as a computer programmer for West Corporation. Their offices were about forty five minutes away in Omaha. Now, even though the commute was kind of long. Carrie enjoyed the work and no matter how busy she was, her son Max remained her priority. She showed for everything for him, whether it was football games, track meets, basketball, baseball, you name it, she was always there, always supporting him the way that her parents and her family had supported her, but While twenty twelve brought that dream job, it also brought heartbreak. Carrie's father Denny was battling stomach cancer, and he was actually put into hospice, and Carrie and Max made sure to spend as much time with him as they could. So I'm pretty sure that One you have cancer and you're put into hospice. It's kind of it it it's kind of an indication that this is terminal, right? I'm not off about that. Like if you're not in the hospital anymore and you're not receiving like direct medical treatment all the time, once you go into hospice. It's kind of the doctors saying and you acknowledging There's there's nothing I can do here medically. Like I'm just I'm kind of uh I'm losing this battle with cancer. Yeah, my understanding of hospice is at that point the aggressive treatment that w had been taking place is subsides and it's more about comfort. being around the people you love. Yeah. So that's why I think, you know, Carrie and Max, they're they're trying to get over there as much as possible, spend as much time with Denny as they could because his life was coming to an end. Now at that point Carrie's focus was on family and work and she wasn't even thinking about dating, but that changed in the fall of twenty twelve when she took her Black Ford Explorer to Hyatt Tire in Omaha, and that's where she met Dave Krupa. mechanic there. She later told her friend Amber that there was an instant attraction with Dave, and while she thought he felt it too, he did not ask her out. So after she left, she looked him up and saw he was on plenty of fish. So for those who don't know Plenty of Fish is a dating app. I don't know if it's still around. I I don't even remember that being a thing. You know, the only reason I know what it is is because I worked at Verizon. around this time and so obviously people were just handing over their cell phones to me. And not that I was going through them. I wasn't going through them. Well, I would you can't. Okay, by the way, you can't, but I would I kept seeing around a certain time I kept seeing this app. Plenty of fish, plenty of fish. And eventually I was like I thought it was a game or something, you know? And I was like, What is this plenty of fish? And and one girl was like, Oh, it's a dating app. So this is like before Tinder. Yeah, I I think it was. Like it was a precursor to Tender. Okay. Yeah. But It it was kind of like around the E harmony time. where do you remember like eHarmony and then there was another one, Match dot com. Yep. And those were like the big ways that you would find like online dating, but a lot of the times you would like meet people who weren't necessarily in your area and then plenty of fish came out and that was like, hey, you can narrow it down to a specific geographical location, right? And then kind of plenty of fish became the hookup app. Whereas match.com and eharmony were like, Oh, if you want a relationship, you're on match.com and eharmony. And if you want to just like, you know, hook up with someone close by to you. Hook plenty of fish is there. Hook up plenty of fish. Do you think that's what it means? I don't know. It just sits where my head went. Maybe yeah. Maybe maybe plenty of fish is like there's plenty of fish in the sea. Like you have one tonight, you got another one tomorrow. Yeah. Well, plenty of fish is still around. For anybody who wants to know, I just looked it up. It's still a thing. Plenty of fish. Still existence. I don't know. I'm not gonna lie sign up, but but I I can see the website. So it's still around for anybody wondering. Well, is is there like a fish? Um yeah, okay, that's what I thought. How cute. How cute. I mean, if it's call plenty of fish, they should probably have a whole bunch of fish in the the logo, but So Carrie looks on plenty of fish and she sees that this cute mechanic From um high attire, Dave Krupa. He's on the app, right? So she then created an account. Hoping to connect with him there. And a few weeks later, Dave came across her profile and messaged her, but still didn't ask her out. So about two weeks after that, Carrie went back to Hyatt tire. This time the connection was evident, and they both knew the other was single. So Dave finally asked her out, and Carrie, of course, said yes. This is what she's been waiting for. This is what she's been setting up for two weeks. They exchanged phone numbers and they made plans to go on a date at Applebee's three days later on october twenty ninth. Now, Dave Krupa was born in October of 1976 in Sioux Falls South Dakota. He was the first of three boys born to Tom and Trish, and he grew up in what he described as a picture perfect household with supportive and loving parents. After high school, Dave moved to Denver, Colorado, and joined the National Guard. But he left after two years. Then he attended college and earned an associate's degree in automotive engineering. He eventually moved back to Sioux Falls, where he built a career as a mechanic, and it was around that time that he met Amy Flora. The two of them started dating, they built a life together. They went on to welcome two children into the world. By the fall of twenty eleven, so the year before Dave meets Carrie, Amy and Dave had been together for over 10 years, and Amy wanted to move back to her home of Council Bluffs, Iowa, which is right next to Omaha, Nebraska. So their family made the move and Dave took a job at High Attire in Omaha, but things between Dave and Amy were We're not going well. Dave hadn't wanted to get married, while Amy did, and And this caused tension and eventually they decided to break up. And I think that this is pretty common, like especially if you meet someone young and then oh one thing leads to another. you know, you're pregnant. I feel like what Dave experienced and what Carrie experienced is kind of the the two ways that these things go, especially back then and like The eighties and the nineties. If you're together, it doesn't matter if you're together two weeks, two months, two years, even if you're young and you got pregnant, it was like, Okay. we're gonna get married. And so a lot of time you'll see that these people are ending up married, but they don't, you know, they're not compatible. They don't have the same th more because it's like the quote unquote right thing to do. Right thing to do. Which is obviously the wrong Don't marry someone just because you feel obligated. Yeah, especially if if you don't even really know them, you know, like yeah, stay with them and see where things go, but it ends up being this thing where two people are together when they don't have the same path in life, they don't have the same goals, they don't have the same compatibility as in what they want or who they are, and then this is exactly what ends up happening and it becomes a stay together for the kids thing. And if you've talked to any kid who's been in a stay together for the kids kind of family. It's not it's not there. Not the best case scenario. It's not as good as you think it is. And then like the parents suffer and you think as a parent you're doing it for the well being of your child, but your child tells you years later when they're adult, they're like, That sucked. You shouldn't have done that, you know? So This obviously was, you know, something that would eventually come between Dave and Amy, the fact that Dave was kind of an unwilling participant in the marriage and both Amy, I'm sure, was able to pick up on that pretty pretty uh clearly and strongly. And so things were rough between Dave and Amy at first, but over time they did become more amicable. They kind of just started getting along and, you know, they got used to the fact that They were not together anymore, but after the breakup, Dave moved into an apartment in nearby Omaha so he could be closer to work. And by June of twenty twelve, he was feeling lonely. He had regular visits with his kids, but outside of that, he was basically on his own in a new city where he didn't really know anyone. And within weeks he realized he wanted to start casually dating again. So he joined plenty of fish. See? Casually dating. Casually. Plenty of fish. Aka hooking up. Yeah, let me get a bunch of fish and see which one tastes the best, I guess. Which one's gonna bite? Which one's gonna make? Which one's gonna get on the hook? And like I guess I'd casual. Dave was not looking for anything serious. He just wanted someone to have fun with. And he, you know, I will say to as a testament to his character in that in that scenario, he was making that clear to every woman he would eventually speak to. According to Dave, he wasn't love bombing anyone or promising all these Yeah, he was just like, Listen, I don't want to talk about the future. I don't want to talk about marriage. I have kids. Wanna hang out, wanna have someone fun to hang with? More than likely wanna hook up, have sex. I want a friend who I can sleep with. If he's making that clear up front, nothing wrong with that. I agree. I I agree. I mean I'm not it's not like my cup of tea. Yeah for most people might say, No, I'm out, but at least he's being transparent. But you know, there's always the there's always the people w whether it's men or women. when you're dating someone and they're like, Oh, I'm not looking for anything serious, they're thinking in their head. he's not looking t for anything serious. he sees how amazing I am and I make him fall in love with me, right? The challenge. Yeah, they like the challenge. And when it doesn't work out, they're pissed. Yes, exactly. Exactly. So while Dave wasn't looking for anything serious, the first woman he met on Plenty of Fish would become a major part of his life for many years, whether he liked it or not. And I would say that maybe this person was one of those persons who liked a challenge and then got pissed when it didn't work out. So her name was Shaina Elizabeth Goyler. She went by Liz. So when Dave saw her profile, he thought she was attractive, so he asked her out on a date. She said yes, and they met at a Perkins in Omaha. Ah, do you remember Perkins? I used to work at one. Best pancakes. So Dave was nervous because he hadn't dated since he was twenty two, but things went well. They quickly realized they had some things in common, including that they both had kids who were around the same ages, and Dave made it clear that he wasn't looking for anything serious, and Liz said she understood. She told him she was busy with her own life, her two kids, her four pets, her cleaning business. She had way too much going on to add more commitments, and Dave, of course, he liked that answer. And they went on a handful of similar low key dates. Nothing really happened until the fourth or fifth date. When Dave kissed her. And they went back to his place. And one thing led to another. And they they hooked up, they had sex. So Dave later told author Leslie Rule for her book A Tangled Web that this whole experience had helped him get His confidence back, which I'm sure that Liz wouldn't have liked to have been described as that, right? Stepping stone. Yeah. He's like, You're not I I don't I don't want anything serious with you. I just want you to help me get my confidence back so I can find something that I actually want to be serious about. It's like wow why am I supposed to say that? Listen, Liz, you're not wife material, but you did help me get my confidence back. So thank you. Thank you. High five. Yeah. But it was clear that Liz really liked David, and he liked that she was sexually adventurous. And those were all appealing things to a man trying to date again for the first time in over a decade. Somebody who was kinda down for anything, fun to hang out with, and also made him feel good about himself, right? He needed that. He needed to see himself as a man that could be desirable to women again. Beyond that, Dave didn't really think there was much of a deeper connection. He felt like he couldn't have a real conversation with Liz and he didn't see anything more long term or more committed developing. And to make matters worse, after a few weeks. Liz started to become really clingy. You know, she's busy with her dogs and her cleaning business and her kids. She doesn't have time for more commitments, but you know, she fell for Dave, clearly, and she wanted all of his time. And she constantly wanted to know where he was, which didn't sit well with him, especially since he had made it clear from the beginning that he didn't want anything serious. And that he planned to date other people. And she had made it clear that she was totally fine with that and that she wasn't, you know, that kind of person because she was so busy with her own stuff. So all of a sudden Dave's like, Hey Y I was upfront and honest with you. You clearly didn't believe me. It was once again something you saw as a challenge. And now and I get that, like it makes her feel bad about herself, you know, because maybe she liked Dave more than she expected to. And so mutually she thought if I'm feeling that, he's gotta be feeling that. So to know that he's not feeling that While Dave's confidence is building. Liz is is crashing, right? and yeah, that can cause some emotional rift, which is why I don't think you should casually date people or have sex with them because there's always going to be tricky emotions that get involved. Yeah, I mean there's always a possibility. This isn't really valuable to what we're talking about here tonight, but it's valuable to life. Yeah, I think it is. I mean if s if someone prefaces a the a dating relationship by saying I'm not looking for anything serious, there is a small chance that they could change their mind, right? If if, you know, things start to go in that direction, but it's not likely. And so I would say if you're looking for something more serious, there are plenty of fish in the sea. And there are people out there who are going into it with a mindset of this could be something serious. So I would I would tend to start that direction because more than likely if you go the other way, you're gonna be disappointed. Yeah, and I think a lot of men in my experience and I've talked to, you know, friends who are girls and things, a lot of men use that as kind of like, Well, I told you I wasn't looking for anything serious. You know, but then they're also calling you all the time or messaging you or when you're together, action showing another when you're together they seem Like they're really into you. And so in your head, you're thinking, like, I'm falling and I feel like more serious about this. So maybe he's feeling that way too because his actions are not matching his words. And I do th I do think like once again, like Derek said It is actually relevant to this case. as we'll come to find it. Oh, you think it is? Okay. Yeah. But how you handle a dating relationship, we'll see. how how Dave and and Liz how their relationship started and what it became So what I'm saying is I don't think it's enough for a man or a woman to say at the beginning of a relationship, Oh, I don't want anything serious. than to continue on in the relationship long term. Like if you're telling someone you don't want anything serious, then they shouldn't really be around. For a long time. You know what I mean? Okay. I I'm with you. I'm with you there. Where I don't know. I I'd be interested to we predominantly our audience is is is women. So I'm interested to hear the feedback there. I think it's just some mixed message. I I do think you're right. Where if you're like I don't want anything serious. But you're getting together even if It's for sex three or four times a week. That's not casual. That's consistent. I mean, if you're w even you're watching movies together, you're sharing stuff about your life. More than likely you're not just walking in and having sex. There's conversations before, during, and after. Yeah, you start to become, you know, you know each other and you start to become almost each other's like support system in a way as friends would be. But you're also having sex, which confuses that friend relationship. And I I just think that it, you know, emotions do get involved and it gets complicated. And so a lot of times men get angry and they're like, Well, I told her I didn't want anything serious. But then you kept having sex with her for months. You know, they call it a situation ship now, right? It's a situation ship I'm gonna get hate for this, but could see the other side of that where it's like you're not going on dates, you're just hooking up, even if you're hooking up consistently. I'm not looking for anything serious. AK I'm just looking to have sex. Yeah, well you're you're friends, right? So let's say you go on, you grab coffee together, you're getting dinner together, you see a movie together. Now this is a relationship. You're just not giving me Commitment. Exclusively a relationship. what's going to end up happening is the person on the other end of that is going to end up feeling used, right? For sex, for companionship. But if you said it initially, is it their fault or yours? Like if you started saying, I don't want anything serious. I mean, I feel like at some point Liz should have had a conversation with him, instead of getting clingy. Or when she starts to feel like she is getting clingy, she needs to have a conversation and be like, Hey, I'm cr crush for this one. Yeah, I'm more invested in this than we had initially discussed. And like I wanna see if you're on the same page. And if you're not, I'm going to have to And this so I don't get hurt because I'm getting into a place where I'm gonna start caring about you and then I'm going to get hurt. But that takes a lot of like emotional regulation and also self awareness. And And communication, which a lot of people don't have, and they don't want to be the person to like say that 'cause then they feel like I'm like needy and I'm gonna be rejected. Nobody wants to be rejected. So All right, well I'm interested to see how this all plays into this because I don't think at this point Dave did anything critically wrong, but uh we'll we'll see what happens. No, I don't think he did anything critically wrong but I think that both men and women have to realize that just saying at the beginning I don't want anything serious. Right. I I agree with that isn't enough. You have to reinforce it somehow. If you're saying I don't want something serious, but yet you're doing all the things that would indicate it's serious, well then And it's going on for weeks and months. Action speak louder than words. I'm with you. All right, let's take a quick break. We'll be right back. You ever open up your refrigerator and to see all the healthy food you bought with good intentions and immediately close the door again? Totally. I I I look in the fridge. I just went to My local market, Dave's Market, shout out to Dave's. And then all of a sudden now it feels like a second job where I'm done for the day, but now it's just getting started. Uh I I that's when I realized for me eating healthy isn't a will power problem. It's a capacity issue. It's a setup problem. And that's why we love factor. Yeah, everything's already done for you. These are fully prepared meals designed by dietitians and crafted by chefs, delivered straight to your door. Yeah, and one more wrink when you finally decide to start cooking the food, you realize that half of it is expired. That happens to me all the time as well. But with Factor, there's no grocery shopping, no meal prep, and For me, what's also important, no cleanup. Love that. And and these meals are actually really good. So one of my favorites recently has been the peppercorn steak. It's high protein, which is I need that. You know, everybody needs protein. I never get enough protein. Uh it's filling. and it's delicious and it's really easy when I'm busy filming or researching all day. And I've talked about the bologna's that they have. I it's my favorite thing. I order like six of them a month. So I can have at least one a week. It tastes like something you get out of a restaurant. Yeah, and they've got different meals depending on your goals as well. So you can be focused on weight loss, overall nutrition. or GLP one support. They've got options for all of that. And for workouts and recovery, which I'm focused on right now, they also have the muscle pro collection. Amazing. Something for everybody. Muscle Pro collection, which is is step up from the Muscle Novice collection. And I am by no means a pro, but I I like to pretend I'm one. So they've got over one hundred rotating meals every week, including globally inspired flavors and new ready to eat salads, which I've been loving. They have little add-ons like green juices and energy bites. The energy bites are amazing. So we love Factor. We think you will too. It just removes so much stress from busy weeks and makes eating well way more realistic. So head to factormeals.com slash crimeweekly fifty off and use code Crime Weekly 50 off to get 50% off and free daily greens per box with a new subscription only while supplies last until September 27, 2026. Once again, this factory meals.com slash crime weekly 50 off with code crime weekly 50 off. See website for more details. Okay, we're back. So Dave continued seeing Liz even after she got clingy. And he was like, I don't like this. I told her I don't want anything serious. He continued seeing her. But he kept telling her they would never be together and that this was casual. So he is reinforcing this with his words, but he's still having sex with her. Which is going to cause Liz to feel like she's being used. So at the same time, he went back on plenty of fish and he started meeting other women, going on dates regularly, and he did not hide this from Liz. Once again, I will give him credit for that. If she asked what he was doing and he had a date, he told her. But every time he had plans with another woman, what would happen? Liz would show up at his apartment beforehand and want to have sex with him. So she's trying to she's trying to stake her claim. Yeah. Right? She's trying to um you know, make sure he goes on this date thinking about the mind blowing time he just had with sexually adventurous Liz. And that he's she's like distracting his brain from these other women. Or like I'll I'll show you what these other women have to measure up to. And this I will say not self aware. Yeah, or trying to Lower his Libido. Right. All of them. Or all of the things. Probably all of the things that we're going to do. Yeah. Where it's like, I'm going to put you in a position where you just want to go to sleep. Yeah. This is this also comes from a place I think of like knowing your worth. I would agree with that. Like if I'm with someone and I I like them and they've made it clear that they don't want to be exclusive and that I'm done with you. Yeah, that doesn't feel good with me. I'm just gonna I'm gonna cut out, right? I'm gonna cut my losses. I agree. I guy with two daughters, if a guy's not reciprocating feelings. And he's telling you directly. I don't want anything to do with you long term. Don't give him the other aspect of it, you know, the sexual side of things. He loses that as well. Yeah. Because now who do you have to be mad at? Yeah. And and I will say, like, listen, Liz is doing all of the things, but she's got kids and she's got a business and she's got dogs. Like this feels exhausting. This feels exhausting to be doing for a man that has let you know. You're not the one. Like he's just not that into you, right? So after this happened three times, Dave realized. No, she's trying to get him to stay with her and to cancel his dates. Yeah. Uh, but that didn't work. He would leave for his date anyway. And you know, she got more and more pissed off every time it happened. She was like, This did not work. My plan did not work. I gotta try something different next time. I gotta try a different position, a different piece of a lingerie. Also, just to knock Dave a little bit, he could easily say don't Yeah, well, I guess she would show up. She wouldn't like call ahead of time. All right. Well, if she was just randomly showing up, okay, but if there's any indication where she was like, Hey, I'm gonna come by and he's like Well if you want to No, even just sh randomly showing up, like as a man, you have to have enough self control to be like No, I can still say no, even though you're in person and you look really good. I can still say no to you because this is starting to Get a little crazy. Messages too. Yeah, exactly. So there were also issues whenever Dave went to see his kids. So he would drive to council bluffs and meet Amy and the kids at a public place, something completely normal for parents who share custody. But Liz absolutely hated the visits because it meant Dave was seeing Amy. And she would make comments about how much time he was spending with Amy, suggesting he was cheating, and Dave would remind her. that he was there to see his kids and what he did with his time wasn't her business. So now Liz is also jealous of Amy. who d Dave's already been with for ten years and it didn't work out. So she's jealous of his future girlfriends, his current girlfriends, his past wife. basically any other woman in his life, which is a bad sign. I know we've talked about Liz a few different times here and we're talking about how she should have taken a hint and got out of there and stopped, you know, giving him the certain benefits of a relationship without the actual relationship. I got to put some blame on Dave here, though, because he's has all these red flags that are being shown and yet he's thinking with the wrong head. Right. He sees it. He knows what's going on. He's having these uncomfortable conversations where he has to remind her it's none of her business, but clear he can see that she's She's emotionally invested. She's jealous over these things. It's not going to lead anywhere good. You gotta stop having sex with her. If someone's accusing you of cheating when you're technically not in a relationship. That's a red flag. You need to make conscious decision not to see her anymore. And he didn't. F up to this point, at least. I mean, don't don't act like men don't cheat with their baby mamas, though. That's what I'm saying. He could be sleeping with his baby mama. It wouldn't be crazy. to think that he's out there having sex with a woman that he had a kid with. Two kids, yeah. But if he is It's none of her business. However, if you're if you're involving her in your life. consistently and she's voicing these opinions. Kinda your bed. You gotta lay in it. Like you're you're sending mixed signals. You gotta get out of it. Yeah. She's showing you who she is and yet you're not. You're not getting out of the situation. They're both showing each other who they are. Some people like this kind of toxic relationship. I will say that they like it. Well, remember, she gave him his confidence back, so Right. And I mean let's just be blunt. We're all adults here. She there was probably good sex. They had been having sex for a while. She was sexually adventurous. He liked the convenience. He liked the the, you know, I guess the adventure of it. Yeah, you know. And so he's out there trying to find new fish. But at the same time going back to the one that he's comfortable with in To be candid, something that's pretty much it appears to be automatic at this point where He wants to hook up, this Liz is available. It's familiar, it's comfortable, he knows he can kinda try new things with her where you might not feel that comfortable doing that with somebody you just met. Yeah. So it's like once again all the benefits and comfortability of a relationship without giving that person yourself, which is unfair. Yep. And so a lot of what the other things that he's experiencing as far as her Cheating and all this other stuff. He thinks he can manage it. It's not looking good. Well we've been in True Crime long enough to know. Some people you can't. So this all of course became a huge point of contention for Dave. It really bothered him that Liz was being so jealous, but no matter what he said, Liz didn't back off. She kept pushing and pushing, becoming more jealous of the time he spent with Amy. Eventually Dave told her he didn't want to talk to her anymore because he didn't need the drama. She left him alone for a few weeks, but then reached out again, asking for help with something at her house And because she was a single mom. Dave agreed. But would you believe it after he helped her out with what he was there to help her out with, they had sex? Or at least she suggested they have sex and then they did have sex. And just like that they were back to talking again, which Would you believe it was probably Liz's plan the whole time? She didn't need help with anything at home. Come on. It's a it's a tail as old as time. That is a trick. that goes all the way back in the book of tricks that the men and women use with each other. You know, it's the same thing as like leaving something behind at somebody's house so that you have an excuse to see them again. She gave him uh some space. for a few weeks to prove she could, to prove she wasn't crazy. All right, I can leave you alone. But then she's like, all right, he's probably missing me. He misses, you know, what we had together. And he's gonna come over to help and I'm gonna be wearing something cute, something low cut. And then it's gonna happen. And then just like that, they are back on talking again, having sex again, in the same toxic pattern that wasn't working out for either of them before they're back at it again. So this was the start of a cycle between Dave and Liz. Surprise, surprise. Things would go well for a few weeks, and then the same patterns would start again. Liz would become clingy, jealous, and accuse him of cheating with Amy, and Dave would get frustrated and tell her he didn't want to see her anymore. Then she would back off and disappear for a few weeks, come back asking for help, Dave would go over and they'd get back together. So as time went on, Liz's behavior escalated and she became less willing to back down when Dave put up boundaries. Yeah, because at this point, Dave has sent her a message. Can't stay away from you. And she's in her head thinking He's into me. He just you know, he's afraid of commitment or He's not able to love, but he he's into me and he loves me. He just can't admit it. Like, cause you keep coming back. You keep coming back. So She now wanted communication, right? Cause she thinks she's got him. And she would text, email, she would call Dave dozens of times throughout the day. She'd even show up at his apartment unannounced to try to talk to him. And by September of 2012, they had only been seeing each other on and off again for a few months, but Liz was already pushing for a commitment. Dave kept saying no, but she continued to bring it up, suggesting they try a four week commitment where they would only see each other during that time so he could see what it was like. So basically she's saying will be exclusive for four weeks. We will only see each other and you can get an idea of what it's like. Well he was with Amy for ten years. He knows what it's like. He told Liz no three separate times, but she kept asking, and eventually he agreed that Just to get her. Oh. So at that point he wasn't really seeing other women anyway because he was busy with the kids and dealing with Liz constantly contacting him. So it kinda felt easier to just say yes, like play into it. Playing. And then at the end of the four weeks I can be like, Yeah, as I thought this wasn't for me. And hopeful that sends a sign that all the other signs haven't sent before. Yeah, but again You're pushing me too much. I don't like the pressure. We're done. No sex, no nothing. But it sounds to me reading between the lines. He didn't want to give up the sexual side of things, so he agreed to appease her because there was something still in it for him. I don't think that he was doing this out of the goodness of his heart. He was benefiting from it as well. So again, I'm gonna say this phrase a couple of times, thinking more with the wrong head in this s situation where The only reason he was willing to do it was because Candidly, you want to keep having sex with her. Yeah. Which is, you know, the epitome of what she's feeling. I'm being used for sex and I want to prove that I'm not being used for sex and that I have more worth than that. When that worth has to come from within, Liz. Alright? So he he kept his word and he didn't date anyone else during those four weeks, but during that time Harry. and came into high attire to have her explorer work done. And he did. He felt an immediate connection with her. So what Carrie was feeling, and she was like, I wonder if he's feeling it too. He was. But the reason he didn't ask her out. Was because he promised Liz. That he would be exclusive for four weeks. Okay? And listen, Dave's a simple man. Who Yes, is a man and he thinks with the wrong head. But at least he's like trying to keep his word here. Like he's trying to do the morally correct thing. And he's trying to be honest with Liz and he's telling her I don't want anything serious, even though he's sending the wrong The wrong kind of messages because I think for a lot of men sex is something different than it is for a lot of women. He doesn't think he's doing anything wrong technically. But he did not ask out Carrie, even though he did want to. because of what he had promised Liz. Can I just ask for all the viewers out there that are like me, anyone who's listening or watching right now. A lot of what you're describing here. Is is it safe to assume Much of this is coming from from his account of what he remembers how it happened. Is that fair to say? Yes. Okay. Sort of. I just wonder You know, where the truth really is. There is yes, there's documented evidence, yeah. Okay. Of the timelines and I'm sure most of it's true, but as far as the reasoning, the motives and the intentions and all that. Well also, Dave didn't want to cross any boundaries because Carrie was a customer at that time. That that would make more sense, yeah. It would be h difficult to go that far without knowing for sure that the feeling would be reciprocated 'cause you'd get fired. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean that makes more sense. Self preservation opposed being concerned about how it would make Liz feel makes more sense to me. Based on him, it was a little bit of a Okay, well, according to him. So Dave is keeping his word to Liz. He doesn't want to cross any boundaries because he's got a job there and you know, he needs a job. He's got kids to provide for and He doesn't want to get fired, but the second time Carrie came in. His four weeks were coming to an end, and he'd seen her on Plenty of Fish, 'cause remember, she made a connection with him there. He knew she was single. And h she thought he was single, and he technically was, but not technically. So before Carrie left, Dave asked her out and they made plans to go on that date three days later on October twenty ninth. So by that day the four week commitment was up and Dave once again made it clear to Liz. I did the four weeks. I did what you asked. Yeah. It's still what it is. I'm still not looking for anything serious. I'm still not looking for a commitment with you. With you. That should have been Liz's cue to be like, okay, no problem. Have a good life. Yep. And then as planned, Dave and Carrie went on their first date meeting at Applebee's, and from the beginning they were having a great time. But before they were even done eating it, Dave's phone started blowing up with texts and call from you know who. Liz. So he ignored all of them, but after they continued for ten minutes straight, Dave started to think something might actually be wrong. So he got up, he went to the bathroom, and answered. Liz then said she needed to get her things from his place right now, at that moment. Despite not seeing him for a few days, she had chosen the exact moment he was on a date to be concerned about a couple of shirts, a toothbrush, and some pants that she had left there a few weeks earlier. Dave told her that he was on a date. And to leave him alone, and then he went back to the table with Carrie. Well I think she already knew he was on a date. She did. I knew that. No, I mean I I don't think he was telling her anything she wasn't aware of, hence the reason she was calling at that moment multiple times for a toothbrush. It's just like add insult to injury here. So despite the interruption, Dave still felt like things were going really well with Carrie, and he asked her if she wanted to go back to his apartment, which was nearby. Thinking Dave. Damn Dave. Knowing, knowing that Liz is lurking. Is always lurking. Yeah, that's a risk. That is a risk. As the uh one of the like three percent of guys that are that are listening to this episode. I'm gonna say that Dave doesn't sound as innocent as I as as he's portraying himself to be. I'm just gonna be that guy. Or he's just not that smart, or he literally just that's what the that's what guys use as an excuse. I'm just dumb, I didn't think about it. He knew exactly what he was doing. Some men are like actually dumb, man. Yeah, I mean it could be a combination, but I'm gonna say it. You know. think this dude's a player. That's my opinion. Maybe it's a girl dad in me, but this guy seems like He's out there just slinging it. Trying to hook up with women. Well yeah, obviously. That's what he's that's why he's on plenty of things. Like you have one girl hitting you up saying, I'm I'm at my place, I need my stuff and he's like, Yeah, I'm on a date and he's trying to bring another girl there that same night. That seems pretty idiotic to me. Yeah, and this is the first d first date. First date trying her back to the apartment. Yeah, so it's also like, do you really like Carrie? Yeah or do you really just want to have sex with her? There you go. Okay, so Carrie says yes, right? Cause she's into Dave. She's been trying to get him on her hook for two weeks. And when they left the restaurant, they headed over to Dave's apartment together. Almost as soon as they got inside, Liz started ringing the bell at the security door of Dave's apartment building. Which he should have known was gonna happen. She said, I gotta get myself right now. You know she's in like a very intense state. She was probably at Applebee's. She was probably watching him leave the apartment. She was probably at Applebee's. She probably followed them back to the apartment. So Dave left Carrie in the apartment and he went down to talk to Liz, who was crying and upset and saying she needed to get her things. And if I'm Carrie right now. I'm like, I'm out. Your phone's blowing up at dinner, you're going to the bathroom all sketchy, making calls and there's some Some crazy crying woman at your door. Yeah, exactly. No, I'm out. So Dave was like you can't get your things right now, whatever, but Liz refused to leave. Dave left her at the security door, he went back upstairs to explain the situation to Carrie, telling her that a woman he had been seeing was nearly hysterical and refusing to leave. And at this point, Dave's like, Yeah, you know, I'm just so I'm catniped to these women. You know. You felt the connection immediately, Carrie. You get it, you get it. You just they they keep coming back. What happens? It's a curse. They they just they're hysterical about me. I'm like the Beatles. And Carrie, instead of seeing this as a red flag, she She was completely understanding, right? She laughed it off. She said something like, We've all been there. Call me when you get it straightened out. So Dave walked Carrie down to the security door where Liz was waiting. Hell he didn't introduce them and neither women acknowledge the other as he let Carrie out. And Dave's in his glory right now, right? He's like, look at these two women just like sending daggers at each other, not even exchanging pleasantries over little old me Dave the catch of Omaha the catch on plenty of fish. Oh this had to have really been stoking his ego. So Carrie went back to her car, she started driving home. At the same time, Liz rushed inside and dramatically started gathering her things from Dave's place, but when she was done, she didn't leave. She stayed of course to argue and cry, and eventually Dave asked her to leave and she did, and not long after that he called Carrie. She was still on her way home, so Liz wasn't there for that long. And she invited him to come out to her place. So she's like, All right, the night's not over, the night is still young. It didn't work out at your place, but what about mine? Now Dave said yes. He hopped in the car immediately. When he got to Carrie's place, they continued having a good time, just like before. And Dave couldn't help but notice how much he liked her. She was beautiful, she was fun, she was really smart, which stood out to him. And then as they were sitting there, she told him she didn't want anything. Those words were music to Dave's ears. After months of Liz pushing for more, Carrie's laid back approach to relationships felt like a relief, and he ended up spending the night, and over the next ten days they saw each other about every other day. Even though neither of them wanted anything serious. They were doing things together that Dave had never done with Liz. They went shopping for a better couch for his apartment, which had been more of a bachelor setup with bare furniture, and Carrie, who had a talent for interior decorating, helped pick out something much better that he liked. And in return, Dave helped Carrie look for a car for her son Max, who would be driving soon. So they're doing relationship stuff, right? This is reminding me of that movie Friends with Benefits. Or what's the one what's the Is that Ashton Cutcher? Yeah okay, but it's not I'm saying the wrong movie then. It's the one with Justin Timberlake and Mila Kunis. Oh, that might be Friends with Benefits. Whatever one that one is I get all those rom coms. Yeah, like this is uh I think you might be right, but My point being I think you might be right. Well, you know. I know my my rom coms. You know your Justin Hemberley. I definitely know JT. The thing about it, it's kind of like this This gray area because Just like in that movie. There's a sexual relationship where you're meeting up late night, it's hookups, and you go on your you're not you're not cuddling through the night, you're not sp you're not you're not going out interior decorating, you're not doing all these relationship things. But it seems like Dave wants a relationship just without the title, which gives him an opportunity to still still say, hey, we're not exclusive. So if he finds someone else, he's like keeping that door open. It's like all the benefits of the relationship without committing to it. Yeah, I think Dave wants a relationship until he thinks the other person does. Yeah, that too. I just think he's looking for the better bigger, better deal all the time. Well he wants to keep one foot out the door in case. Like There's no commitment. He didn't he didn't even want to get married to Amy, remember? So I think just in general, some people have issues with commitment. He wants the benefits of a relationship when they're convenient for him. Yeah. So Here's the thing. Carrie tells him she doesn't want anything serious. Liz told him that too, remember, in the beginning. She was like, Yeah, I don't want anything serious either. Now Carrie's saying to him, and Dave's like, Okay, this is good. Let's do it. But In this situation. Dave's kind of into Carrie now. Like he really likes her. And during that time. Liz kept trying to contact Dave, but he completely ignored her now. Which only made her more upset because now He's found someone he likes. He's enjoying this person's company, he can have conversations with her, he can do all this stuff with her, and he likes sleeping with her. So he has what he needs now. There's not a part where he needs to like fill a hole in his life. Liz is worthless to Dave now. This is horrible to say, but that's the that's exactly what we're dealing with here. And Liz's understanding. That And she's becoming really angry. So around November 7th, Liz called Dave and said she thought she had left some pans at his place and he offered to bring them to her. But once he got there, she immediately jumped on him. They had sex. Yeah, I I'm putting the blame on Dave. Dave is has no control over himself. No, I'm putting the blame on Dave because again, like she jumped on him. Come on. Come on. Did you speak to Dave before the the script was created? 'Cause Dave is a victim in every sense of the word. No, Dave talked to um Anne Roll, the w the author who wrote the book. But listen, she may have she jumped on him, Stephanie. But that doesn't mean that was he supposed to do? But that doesn't mean that you can't be like peel someone off you and it's like. That's what I'm saying. You know. So my God I'm try not to be too vulgar here, but like But what does that mean? How did your pants get off? How did you you know let's how did everything else happen? Come on, man. She jumped on me. She jumped on me. I couldn't I tried to find I had her pants in my hand and I was smacking her with them, but did you file charges, Dave? Was it that? Yeah. Come on, man. He went over there. He wanted one last hurrah. Yeah, but in her head it's not. In Liz's head it's not one last hurrah, right? It's once again hope being dangled in front of her. It's also confirming to her like there's still something there. There's still something there. Even though he's seeing someone he really likes. He still wants me. But for Dave, the sex with Liz didn't change anything. continued seeing Carrie and he continued spending as much time with Carrie as possible. And then on November 9th or 10th, Carrie's explorer was vandalized with silver spray paint on the hood and down the side along with a deep scratch. So Carrie and her son Max spent hours removing the paint, but even so, Carrie didn't appear to be angry. She was surprised though. Her car had been parked in Macedonia, where nothing bad ever happened. I mean, there's three hundred people that live there, so I think we know where this is going, right? But But before we continue, let's take our last break. We'll be right back. So, Derek, I would tell you I'm excited to tell you about the world's number one expanding garden hose and their new product, the Pocket Hose Ballistic, but You are a pocket hose fan boy, so I don't think I even need to tell you about it. Huge fan. I got the one that came with our promo package. It was the twenty-five foot hose. Uh I've now purchased multiple pocket hose ballistics, including their seventy-five footer. It's amazing. And by the way, it's French Bulldog approved because Vinny. Uh, he loves to bite things like the ropes and stuff. So when the the pocket hose expands. He starts to chew on it. As soon as they bite on it. French bulldogs, they got those sharp teeth. puncture hose. Knock on wood, multiple encounters if you will. Not one puncture hole hole in the hose. Works great. I love how it expands when you turn it on. And then as soon as you turn the water off, it shrinks back down to pocket size. It's amazing. I can't say enough good things about it. And also, by the way, it has this liquid crystal polymer in it, which is the same stuff you find in bulletproof vests. So that's something I know a thing or two about. Yeah, so actually it's interesting because I'm gonna be honest here. I'm not like a an incredible Hulk or a strong person, but I have never treated a hose gently in my life. And nobody does I think is it, you know, but that's what they're made for. They're made for like outside work. People are dragging them across concrete, yanking them around corners, leaving them in the sun, leaving them in the cold, and then they act shocked. when they split six months later, but like you said. pocket hose ballistic it's kind of insane. It's reinforced with that liquid crystal polymer and it makes the outer sleeve incredibly durable and actually five times stronger than steel. So it has over one hundred patents for a hose. Plus it the pocket pivot it rotates three hundred and sixty degrees. So instead of fighting the hose every time you want to move it or twist it. It actually moves with you. Plus they upgraded the washers to resist leaks and they added UV coating so it keeps it looking good year after year. So there's like Yeah it's a really cool copper look. You'll see. It's awesome. And right now for a limited time, when you purchase a new pocket hose ballistic, you'll get a free three hundred and sixty degree rotating. pocket pivot and a free thumb drizzle. It's a basically a nozzle. It's got like seven different spray. It matches the aesthetic of the rest of the hose. It connects right onto it. It's got like this rubber seal when you connect it where there hasn't been even a drop of water coming out of it. This clear is Derek approved, which means it's Clearly most men approved, and I know that a lot of us are always like, What do I get? My boyfriend, husband, father, when it looks like pocket hose would be the perfect gift for any man, any time of the year. Yes. All right. So all you have to do claim this amazing offer is text CW to 64000. That's CW to 64000 for your two free gifts with purchase, and one more time that's CW to 64000 message and data rates may apply. We're back. So a few days later, on November twelfth, Carrie was scheduled to start a week long project at work that would require long hours. Dave offered to let her stay at his place so she wouldn't have to commute back and forth, and she accepted, and arranged for her son Max to stay with her mom and stepdad. Yeah, was about to say the totally normal thing for just two people who are having sex. Mm-hmm. Yeah, right, exactly. Come on. So that Monday, Carrie went to work as expected, and she got out sometime between eight PM and nine PM, and then she went back to Dave's and spent the night. The next morning, Tuesday, Dave left for work at around six fifteen AM. When he left, Carrie was awake and on her laptop, working on coding that needed to be finished soon. She also called work around that same time and left a message for her boss saying she was working on things. The plan was for her to finish the code that morning, go into the office, meet with co workers, and verify everything. They were on a deadline, and everyone was depending on her. But Carrie never made it into the office that morning. Her supervisor was shocked because she was always reliable and always on time, and she had just called with an update not long before. By mid morning, when Carrie still hadn't shown up, the supervisor called her, but it went straight to voicemail. The supervisor left a message and continued trying to reach Carrie throughout the day, but there was no response. Carrie's phone wasn't completely silent that day, though. At around 10 a.m., Dave got a text from Carrie's phone asking if he wanted to live together. And then immediately caught him off guard because they had already agreed the relationship was casual. Now Dave's thinking, like, man, I let this woman spend a few days with me and the Dave the catnip Dave worked again. What is my deal? I it is a curse. These women always want to just marry me as soon as they spend a little time with me. So he responded no. And then less than 30 seconds later, another text came through that said, quote, fine, I hate you. I'm dating someone else. I don't want to see you anymore. Go away. End quote. Now Dave didn't know what to think. Um, he's probably thinking, Why is every woman that I meet Absolutely out of her mind. Why am I so appealing to all these women? He was completely thrown off because this didn't feel like the carry that he had gotten to know. But at the same time, he reminded himself that he didn't really know her all that well yet, and he didn't want to deal with the drama, so he put his phone down and he went back to work. Now when Dave got home that evening, Carrie was gone, and after that he didn't receive any messages from her for almost two days. Carrie's job didn't hear from her either. The only person who got a message from Carrie's phone was her mom, Nancy, who received a text on Tuesday saying that Carrie had found a new job in Kansas. And that didn't make sense to Nancy because Carrie was already working her dream job and she liked living close to her family and her father was in hospice and there's all these things tying Carrie to where she was and This is just not like Carrie at all. Over the next few days, Nancy kept texting Carrie, asking things like when was she going to pick Max up? because they were supposed to go to a wedding for Carrie's half birthday, where Max would be the usher. The wedding had been moved up because Carrie's father was not doing well, but Nancy never got a response, which was unusual because she and Carrie talked every single day. Basically left, not going to work. Not picking up her kid. Not doing anything. And this is sending up a ton of red flags it's not typical for Carrie. And Carrie never showed up for the wedding either, which was completely out of character for her. She wouldn't have missed something like that, especially with her dad in hospice, and she would not have left Max and her family without any communication. But Nancy didn't have Dave's contact information. She didn't even know anything about him. She didn't even know his last name or where he lived. So she had no way to reach out to him to ask if he had seen Carrie. She was left trying to figure things out on her own. Then on Thursday, November 15th, Carrie's employer received a text from her phase she was resigning and that she was sending Liz Goyler to replace her. This is bananas. So later that same day, Liz filled out an online application with the company and listed Carrie as her reference. Carrie's supervisor was just absolutely confused, completely shocked. By the whole scenario. The idea that Carrie would try to send someone to replace her didn't make sense, especially since Carrie knew the company had a strict hiring process and wouldn't just bring someone in like that, especially someone who didn't have a background in computers. When you're doing coding work. But she did stay at a holiday in. You don't get that reference. It's a it's a commercial. It's like 'Cause they have a business center? No, it's like you're like the Holiday Inn commercials where they're like in a surgical room and they're in a hospital and like this person's about to have surgery and they're looking at this guy putting on gloves and he's like, Oh, are you a heart surgeon? He's like, No. But I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night. Yeah. Yeah, 'cause I think it's 'cause they have like a business center, right? Yeah, I'm It's supposed to be for like but traveling provision. Whatever it is. So like yeah, she has no background in computers, but yeah, it was a joke that you're gonna be saying that yeah, I'm sorry, I I'm sure it landed for some of you out there. I'm sure it's a long time. Sure I did, but I was like, really? Did she stay on a holiday in? Like, do you know this case? No, but but that all said This is wild like i'm trying to let you get through the context here so i'm not like interrupting the whole time to think that Carrie would not only recommend someone based on all the things you just said, that's not their practice. That's not their policy. But then to recommend The woman who was sleeping with the same guy as her. Crazy. Well nobody would really know that except Dave, right? Nobody would know that except Dave, but also Carrie didn't know Liz. before Dave. She all she saw her was in passing. She saw her once. So she's not gonna recommend a woman that she's never interacted with before. But nobody knows that except Dave. Nobody knows it but crazy if the person sending this text is who I think it is. Why would you expose yourself like this? But anyway, okay. She's not right now. Okay. Yep. Obviously. I'm listening. I'm listening. I know this is a multi parter, but I'm like Where are we going? No, it it feels like we're going already, right? It feels like this is gonna be a slam dunk, but I I digress. Let's see. All right. So also on November 15th, Dave's phone started blowing up with messages from Carrie that said things like quote, I hate you, you've ruined my life, you're a terrible person, and quote. 'Cause now Liz is mad. 'Cause Liz is like, hey, I thought he really liked Carrie, but he hasn't messaged her either, so You know, I have to get a response out of him. Liz is doing what Liz would do. If it was her. but she's doing it as Carrie. And so Dave believed Carrie was the one sending those messages. He had no idea that just one day later, on Friday, November 16th, Carrie's mom reported her missing to the Pottawatami County Sheriff's Office, which served Macedonia residents. Deputy came to Nancy's house and took the report, but it was clear he did not think the situation was suspicious. I mean, we've seen this a million times. Carrie's an adult. She has every right to disappear. Not call her mom. She got a new boyfriend. You know, she's got all these responsibilities. She wanted to like Take a break from them. Yeah. Can I can I address this quick though, because Although it happens all the time. talked uh a lot about this on detective perspective because it's always unsolved. And I I am I practiced what I preach here, okay? There's a distinction, right? And I think it's we have to make it clear. As a police officer, when you respond to a call like this and someone says there's an adult. There's no previous medical history, nothing that would suggest that this is something you need to report right away. There is a clear difference between reporting it, entering this person into NCIC. and doing the investigation. Simply put, you can tell the complaintant, the person trying to make the report. Unfortunately, they're an adult. Maybe they don't want to be found. I can't report them missing it. They have a right to do what they want to do and have that privacy. However If you don't mind, I'd love to have their car registration. I'd love to have their phone number, any potential addresses they would go to, the phone numbers of people they were friends or or or colleagues. I want all of that. Why? Oh, just in case we have to do something later. But in reality, what I'm going to do and what I always did was I went and found that person. I conducted the full investigation without the report. And it usually ended with me calling the person and finally getting a hold hold of them, whether it was directly or by me just being a nuisance and contacting all their friends and being like, hey, listen. I need her to call me. I I don't care where she is, she doesn't have to tell, but I need to hear her voice. And normally I would get that call. What? What do you want? Listen, sorry, just so you know, so and so is looking for you. I didn't take a report. You're good to do what you want. I just wanted to hear your voice and have you tell me you're okay. Once I got that, I'm good. So I say all that to say I don't know where this case is going. But there's a big difference between, hey, I can't do nothing and not making the report. I totally agree with that in most circumstances, although this one is a little odd. There should be a follow up in this in this story where you tell me, yeah, Derek, they didn't take the report, but they did contact her and speak with her. That is the proper procedure. Or they or they contacted her employer, or they contacted this guy that she was last known to be with who Carrie's mom didn't even know. So it's like, Well yeah, this guy could be like a murderer. No doubt. No doubt. There should be an investigation. There have been Dozens. If not. a hundred different cases where I was being contacted by a significant other, someone who's, you know had some stock in where this person was. And they would be calling me after the fact, like, yeah, still haven't heard from this person. And I already knew where they were and I knew they were safe. And I'm like, yeah, listen, unfortunately, sorry, I can't report them. There's more context to these stories sometimes where this person may not want to be found. by this other individual, whether I agree with it or not. Not my not my story to tell, not my decision to make, but I hate when we hear this and Because of the technicality of the law? officers wipe their hands clean of it. Can't take the report. And this happened on my job, by the way, when I was a supervisor as a sergeant. And I would get the report or the dispatch log and I would say to them. All right, did we track them down though? Did we at least put eyes on them or or have ears on them? No? What do you mean? Oh yeah, they're an adult. Yeah, talk to Carrie's talk to Carrie's boss and and they'd be like she never misses work. This is really out of big things. One phone call. Right? One phone call. But they no, I didn't she's an adult, right? What can I do? Uh you can find her. Find her. Make sure she's okay. call the employer, like you said, everything you just went through. I want to know that she's okay. And then once we know that, I'm good with it. But this it's nonsense. I get so frustrated with this response and it's it's uh prevalent. throughout law enforcement, because they always rely on this, right? There should be documentation showing, hey, this is what I did right in the dispatch lock. Don't have to pull a official case number. Although I didn't take the report because of this, this, and this, I did speak to this person confidentially, they're fine. Normally not the case though, as you know. No, and that's that's what's annoying. I mean Once again, this I think has changed. In recent years. And I'm gonna give you because you've been doing this longer than me and all of you listening and watching. It's the public pressure. It's the embarrassment. that comes with them not doing their job and then podcasters and YouTubers and and television shows and streaming services. calling them out by just presenting the facts and all of us going Well, why wouldn't ex the conversation we're having right now, well, why wouldn't they have followed up with it, even if they didn't take an official report? So now there is that policy where supervisors and patrolmen are saying. I don't want to be on Netflix. You know? And and if that's the reason they're doing it, that's fine. And I mean just the the amount of cases where it's been proven that there was something going on that could have been. No doubt. You don't know until you follow up on it. They don't want to be on the next episode of Crime Weekly. If that's the reason they're doing it, I'm fine with it. But You are right. There has been a change in recent years, and I strongly do believe it's because of crowd solving and podcast and that is one of the benefits. to having true crime creators have a platform where they can expose this behavior and even though they're not legislators, they can They can enact change. Well, Nancy pushed back. She told him she understood all of that, carry's an adult, whatever. But this wasn't normal for her daughter, and something was wrong. But no matter what, Nancy said her concerns were not taken seriously. And things took an even more difficult turn when the officer asked about mental health, and Nancy shared that Carrie had been diagnosed with bipolar disorder and was on medication. So the officer told her situations like this happen all the time. Or someone stops taking their medication, starts acting erratically. Nancy told the officer that wasn't what was happening but he didn't listen, and the only action he took was entering Carrie into N CIC. So Especially if you're having a mental health episode, that's even more of a reason. too track area down now, I think, right? So he's like Oh, she's off her meds and she's bipolar and she's acting erratically. This happens all the time. She'll be back. This is even more of a reason to make sure she's okay. Am I wrong? Of course. And Everyone knows I think at this point. What N C I C is? Is that fair to say? What do you think? Oh yeah, yeah, I think so. Yeah. National Crime Inf Information Center. It's basically a national database. all police departments have access to You can enter people for uh missing persons. You can enter um stoles, you can enter uh anything you can think of. You can if you're looking for someone, this is the database you would enter it in. And this is where you see in the movies, TV shows, whatever where they'll, you know, I'll say 37 to 311, can you run a 28 on The dispatcher then looks into NCIC. It's not an internal database. They will run that person and it will report back if they have any warrants, not only locally, but nationally, right? It'll let you know if it's an extra dictable warrant. It's all in there, entered by the individual agencies. responsible for uploading that. So I will say this is better than some of the cases I hear because at least what this does. is if if she's stopped by an officer, whether it's under a good circumstance or a bad one. And they say, hey, what's your name? I just want to enter you into dispatch. point the dispatcher's job is to run all those people, even if it's just like a just a normal routine stop like hey there's a party going on. I just want to document these people were here. The dispatcher if if it's accessible and convenient at the time, if they're not too busy. They're supposed to run those people to make sure that there's no violent offenders, nobody with warrants. And at that point, they would respond back to the officer and say, hey. Just so you know. person's currently entered as missing. And that's where you go from there. So I like the fact that they at least did that. It was the least they could do, yeah. And you know we've done this a long time. That's not even the case a lot of the time. But think the standard should be I'm not only gonna enter her into NCIC and hope that someone runs into her. Well he probably did that because of the bipolar, because of her not having her medication. I agree, but he should have went and found her for those reasons. He should have conducted his own independent investigation, confirmed she was okay, and then you don't need to enter into NCIC because you already know she's fine. So there's an acknowledgement that she could be in danger by entering her into NCIC. 'Cause you're not supposed to if you think she's fine. And yet no investigations conducted. They're contradictory, the actions. Yeah. So I don't like it. Well, it was like the easiest thing you could do without having to be able to do lazy. Thank you. It's laziness. They just don't want to be involved. So then on Saturday, november seventeenth, Carrie's phone texted her mother Nancy again, this time asking Nancy to let a woman into Carrie's house to pick up a bedroom set she had supposedly purchased. The text included a photo of a $5,000 check made out to Carrie with bedroom set written on the memo line. There were immediate red flag for Nancy. For starters, Carrie didn't have a matching bedroom set. Her furniture was a mix of antiques, many of which had been in the family for generations, and Nancy couldn't imagine her selling any of it. The check itself also looked suspicious. It was a starter check. So they're the ones that you get at the bank before your real checks come. There's no name or address printed on them. like a normal check would have. So the whole thing felt off like someone was pretending to be Carrie. Yeah. No phone call, by the way. All text message. Yeah. Got to me as well as a red flag because I'd say, hey, can you call me quick? Yeah. And uh, can I hear your voice? Then that's exactly what Nancy did. Nancy texted back saying she needed to hear Carrie's voice before she would do anything. I love it. And then the responses became angry, calling Nancy a bad and controlling mother, and that confirmed it for Nancy, because the person texting her was not Carrie. Carrie had never spoken to Nancy like that, not once. They had a good relationship, they were supportive of each other, they weren't a toxic family dynamic. And clearly the person texting did not know that. And the messages themselves had grammatical and spelling issues, which was another red flag because Carrie was very particular about things like that, even in texts. So Nancy contacted the police again, relaying information about the conversation, but they still didn't see it as concerning. Ridiculous. I know. They believed Carrie was fine and would come back, and part of that may have been because her Facebook and phed. In fact, Multiple people in Carrie's life, including Carrie's mother Nancy, Carrie's son Max, and Carrie's friend Amber kept receiving messages from Carrie's phone. Dave also received dozens of messages a day telling him he belonged to Carrie and referring to Liz as a whore. So it wasn't long before Dave and told him that his crazy ex Carrie had found her number and address and was harassing her as well. She claimed she was receiving threatening messages and that Carrie had even broken into her garage and spray painted the words whore from Dave on the wall. Liz told Dave how upset she was to be targeted by his stalker. And Dave thoug things with Liz were over, and he hadn't planned to see her again, but now he felt obligated. He felt bad. He felt he had to meet with her and talk about what was going on. He apologized for what was happening to her. She accepted. And they started seeing each other. They started seeing each other again on and off. I'm not a fan of Dave, in case you can't tell. Yeah. So basically Liz planned this whole elaborate thing and she she got what she wanted out of it. Allegedly. Uh I yeah. I'm not a big fan of Dave either, I'm gonna be honest. So Things did remain rocky, as they would, but one thing always seemed to pull them back together, and that was the fact that over the next three years. Both Liz and Dave would be the targets of a relentless stalking campaign that would escalate into arson. gun violence and more. So Liz is orchestrating a trauma bond. For three years. Insane. Well that's gonna have to wait though, Derek. It's gonna have to wait, but I do want to round this episode out by saying This could have been solved. very quickly. I can't believe that they let Carrie be missing for three years. No, it's insane. Just as simple as Hey, Nancy, I see you're receiving phone calls from Carrie. She won't call you back. Okay, we know how to solve that. We're gonna take this in as a report. We're gonna secretly call ATT Verizon whatever service she has. This is 2012, right? We're gonna get the coordinates for that phone. We're going to have you keep interacting with this person so that they keep their phone on, which is going to result in more pings. We're going to triangulate it. We're going to pin it down. We're going to go to that location. We're going to locate Carrie or the person with their phone, and we're going to figure out what happened to her. Done. Case over. This person thinks in the clear, they're gonna keep their phone on there interacting with people. It's solved. I mean, this is not brain surgery. And so the fact that none of that was done or even just I wouldn't have gone this route. I like to be a little bit more creative, but if you were really lazy, you could also just leave a vo vo voicemail on Carrie's phone saying, hey, this is Officer Lavasser. I need you to call me back immediately. If you don't. We're gonna report you missing. And then if you don't get a phone call back, then you know something's up. But I wouldn't have done that route because it spooks not only potentially Carrie, but who has her phone. I would have gone the other route, file the report, get it approved, go to a judge, get the search warrant for the phone. track her down, make sure she's okay, or. get the drop on the person who's currently in possession of her phone because the people closest to her. Her own mother, who knows her better than you, is saying it's not her. What more credible witness do you need in that? So that's what I would have done. And she never comes back and just leaves her son and her life and everything behind? No, it's crazy. And I'm frustrated not because of the case. I'm frustrated because I know this is a multi parter. And the reality is it should we shouldn't be covering it. It should have been a slam dunk. None of this other stuff that you're gonna cover for the next couple episodes. even have transpired. And when you go down to the foundation of why that occurred. It's law enforcement. It's the inaction, it's the laziness, it's the incompetent, it's all of that. And that is my job here. Like I can't defend this. None of this other stuff. Like they They probably couldn't have stopped whatever happened to Carrie. I don't know what happened to her yet. I'm hoping you tell me. that she's still out there, my gut tells me that's not the case. And They may not have been able to prevent that. That's on some other people, and we'll get into that. But the whole it going on for three years. Yeah, this is this is on law enforcement. This is at their feet. Obviously the person responsible. Which I think we're all looking we're all looking in Liz's direction, right? We're all looking at you, but there's so much there's so many more lay to this, and I'm glad you're covering it. Because just like with Crime Weekly News earlier this week, talking about Athena Schran, right? There's not a lot we can do to go back and change what happened. We can only learn from it. And this is an opportunity to learn from it and call out. Because again, like we said, mid episode here. Public pressure. And the exposure to this to this bad police work. is in a way effectively how we get it to stop. By having our own people, be meaning me. Calling them out, saying you're morons. What are you doing? And if for no other reason than that, It usually does have people say, I don't want to get called out, man. I got I'm gonna go cover my bases. I don't want people to know I'm a moron. Yeah, exactly. And if you are, just quit. Just quit, man. Go find another job. But this is a Insane case. Yeah. This is I I can understand why There's you said there's a book about it? Yeah, and a Nan rule book. Oh yeah, man. This is like I can I can only wait to I can only imagine where this is gonna go, but uh It's a it's an interesting one, that's for sure. Um any final words from you? There's one other announcement I had to make, but that was it. No, I'm good. I I mean Just a real quick one. For anybody who doesn't know, Stephanie and I have a coffee company called Criminal Coffee. We donate a portion of the Prophet Solv Cases. We also donate to foundations that are there to support victims and their families. And also to find the bad guys. Right now, for anybody who doesn't know, go over to criminalcoffeeco.com. We have a few sales going on, but one of the biggest ones are for our decaf drinkers. If you haven't tried decaf or you're someone who wants to stock up on it, we have decaf K C Ups. We're going to have small runs in the future. But right now we have an extreme discount on it because we want more people to try it. Lowest price we've ever had. It's be up on the screen here. We also have flavored coffees hazelnut, French vanilla, and then our our singular roasts like undercover roast, alias, and rogue. Rogue is probably most popular. Yeah, they're all great. Uh and again, portion of the profits go to solving cold cases. We have a couple other cases we're working on right now and we're continuously donating to foundations. And you're able to go onto the website for transparency purposes and see where your money is going. So if you want to support that cause. and get a great cup of coffee, go check us out at CriminalCoffeco.com. That's gonna do it for us, guys. We're gonna be back next week. Until then, everyone stay safe out there. We'll see you soon. Bye.