Future of AI and Local Models

Coming up, actual, real-life, leaked renders of iOS 27, a big fix coming for AirPods users, Johnny Ives bizarre Ferrari Luce design, and that's about it. Good evening and welcome to the Cult of Mac Podcast. I'm your host today, D. Griffin Jones. Uh last week Leander was out because one of his many children was graduating some level of school. We still haven't figured out what. I don't know why he's not here today. He didn't tell me. But uh don't worry, we've still got Lewis Wallace. Hello Lewis. Hey, it's great to be here even if Leander can't be. It's great to be here because Linda Oh, I didn't say that. I did not say that. Also joining us, returning, we have Christina Warren. Welcome. Hey, thanks so much for having me back. I think you're your first uh repeat guest. Yes. I love that. That makes me feel great. I love that. I love that. Uh my mom listens to the show now and uh she she she really liked you last time. She'll be she'll be glad to hear that you're back. Oh awesome. Well well hi hi hi hi Griffin's mom. Great, great to Every few times I go over there, she's like, Hey, when are you gonna have that chick on again? Sheesh, really? Why? Come on. That chick, her name is FilmGirl. Exactly. Exactly. It's that it's it's it's that film girl. No, exactly. No. So this week's episode of the podcast is brought to you by the number five. You need to zoom out. There we go. Okay. Five. I don't know why. I I ordered some uh furniture a while ago, like one of those long, skinny, tall tables that like goes behind a sofa. And uh, you know, I went out on the front porch, saw the package there. I was like, okay, that's gotta be it. Uh and then there was another envelope, like a a bubble sort of envelope, really skinny, from the same like return address. Uh, and I wasn't really sure what that was. Maybe they shipped it into like two separate pack ages. I opened up the second one and it is a uh gold foil ballo on of the number five . I'm not entirely sure why. Uh so this week's episode is brought to you by the number f ive. Uh that is bizarre. That is bizarre. Somebody's like it's not your fifth birthday, right? Uh this is what I was gonna say. I was gonna say my my nephew just turned five, actually. Yeah. And uh a few weeks ago, and so it was like maybe maybe th there's a mix up, right? Maybe something was supposed to go to like a fifth birthday house and like you got the balloon instead. But you know what? It's a good balloon and uh It is. Yeah. It'll be really good next year, which will be my my fifth anniversary at Caltimac, but uh nice today it's just five this well beyond the fifth episode of the podcast uh as well. But here we are. Did it have your name on the package for sure? I mean it say like little GM to like the same address that you know the the the the table arrived at same return address spelled exactly the same way maybe this outfit uh sells both uh furniture and uh gold foil balloons I wouldn't pop it, man. Might be anthrax . Oh. Yeah, I'll keep it inside. Lewis, why don't you tell us about iOS twenty seven? What a thing to wake up to this morning. Holy moly. Uh Bloomberg's out with this big post about you know the redesign of iOS twenty seven and it's got uh I I I don't ever remember seeing anything this uh you know extensive from Bloomberg. They've got all of these um renders showing basic ally what Apple's going to show off in a week. A week and change. Big changes coming to Siri. A lot of this is based on reporting that we've already read and talked about at Infinitem or how But this shows how it's gonna look. You know, Ciri popping out of the dynamic island, and which is apparently gonna be the hidey hole where Siri lives in iOS twenty seven. Uh the implementation of the Siri uh visual intelligence stuff w inside the camera app, all these really and they're actually I mean, honestly, they're they're gorgeous looking renderings. Uh they did a very good job, yeah. It's very impressive. But it's it's a a ton of it, you know. Though it shows what that uh dynamic island's gonna look like, it kind of ex pands out. Although it it's got that weird liquid glass warping, which I don't I'm already tired of that. Uh you know, the the search or ask box, which has been reported before, shows how that works. Uh it's just it's really it's kind of shocking how the how in-depth these things are and how it really brings to life all these rumors we've heard. It it's pretty big change, you know, uh and as we've been discussing for weeks, months, etc. Um, AI is just like the main thing in iOS 27, you know, this redesign series that's you know, gonna work. Absutolely gonna work work beautifully. Um there's like all these different ways that they're implemented, you know, the like a Siri app that works like a chat bot, a lot of really rich looking um images and stuff like I saw there's one like a search for a a basketball player shows a a picture of him which is you know this looks nice. Um tons of AI powered information that you can get you know doing searches in Siri . And uh I don't know. Uh have you guys had a chance to look at it yet? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like it's always hard to tell with these things when it's a render. Um, even though and in this case I'm I'm assuming and we we we talked about this a little bit pre-show looks like the renders were done by by Bloomberg's in-house team and and I don't know you know um which which means that you know uh they were able to do it to whatever specifications um Mark and I guess the other editors wanted. But it's always hard to kind of uh predict based on a render, if you know, okay, well, uh what is this actually going to look like? Is this really going to be what we're going to see, or is this, you know, um the the um outside art ists interpretation based on on the facts that that they've heard. Um but just what what we're seeing, I mean, you know, it makes logical sense. It looks really good. And I I I like the more I think about it, and I know this was reported before, I do like the idea of using uh the dynamic island as kind of the the place to access Siri, assuming Siri's actually going to be useful this time. I actually do like that as uh kind of an always on kind of place, right? Like I think that that is a good way of not having to take up a button, which is kind of what's happened in the past. You know, people have had, you know, oh we'll make the action button Siri. No, but people want that for other types of things. Um, and I think that especially if you're going to be able to you know have some of the visual intelligence and other aspects built into it, I like that. I think that could be uh kind of a good UI paradigm to be like, okay, if I don't have another thing that's using my dynamic island at this time, I can just tap on this space and pull up Siri and then interact with it and either ask a question that might be unrelated to what's on my screen or maybe it is related to what I'm doing and what what I'm in the flow with. I like that a lot. So I I like kind of that perspective and and I think that um yeah I mean these renders are are very are very good. I mean it looks for at least from what the renders are sho wing uh like a much more refined kind of you know ios 26 style which is obviously what we've been hearing for the last few months that's what they're going to be doing with the overall haul with iOS 27 is is it's not going to be a a complete rethinking of anything, but just more refinements of what we've had before. But I think it looks good. And I'm I'm excited to see how they will integrate these features. Again, the big caveat is will it actually be good this time into the other applications and into the other you know parts of the OS? Because that's the thing that if this can actually be useful, I think that uh a lot of people would really enjoy this because that that gives you the sort of integration that you don't have with existing AI apps right now. Um no matter what you know access they can have, it's not gonna be the same as being kind of a system level integration where I can pull it up anywhere, anytime and I can have it built into the Photos app and I can have it built into to notes and I can have it built into to other aspects. And I I think that they if they're able to pull this off, this approach strikes me as being better than just having the the Apple intelligence kind of button right now that gets in your way that you accidentally invoke more often than not and you're like, please, please go away. I don't actually want you to summarize anything for me because you'll take five minutes and then be terrible. Um so, you know I almost wonder if they actually mocked it up as like a little Swift UI demo, a demo app, because I mean the people voice done like concept renders of you know, this is what I dream iOS sixteen will be like. And they always don't look very good. They even the best ones, like they get a bunch of like little Apple E design details wrong because they're just trying to build it from scratch and like you know, Adobe After Effects. And and that only gets harder with like liqu withid glass because it's no longer just like a plane of translucent glass. It's gotta have like the lensing effects and all that. But I really wonder if they like mocked these up in Swift UI because they're it goes beyond like the the few images that we can uh show in the article. Like if you click if you have access to Bloomberg and you can look at the full story, like they've got the uh mocked up like Siri app interface that shows what that's like and it's got like you know, it looks like liquid glass. I mean the other part of this is that now now that we've heard this rumor for a while, we can really sink into the fact that like having it in the dynamic island and also merging it with spotlight does two things. I mean it it gives the iPhone universal access to spotlight which it has never had before. You always have to you know swipe up, swipe up, swipe up, like sometimes three times to get to your home screen, and then swipe down to get spotlight. But having it everywhere on the iPhone would actually be excellent. It's with with iPhone mirroring on the Mac , you can access spotlight. Yeah, I think it has like the command three shortcut for it. Yeah. And it's like, why can't you get that on my iPhone? As soon as I played around with that, I was like, this would be really great to just have on my iPhone. Yeah, no, I fully agree. Because that is one of the and cause it's annoying, you know, you kind of have kind of the spotlight like feature in an iOS, but it doesn't work the same way as it does on a Mac and it's inconsistent and sometimes it will actually find things otherwise. So yeah, I'm with you. I think I would love to have, you know, that kind of functionality that you get the on the iPhone mirroring. And on the iPad you have spotlight, but only if you have an external keyboard. It doesn't have adjusted on on its own. So it sounds like you know the Jester's going to I mean the top of the screen is going to be a very busy space now. Yes. At least on a non-folding iPhone, on a port rait iPhone, like you can swipe down from the left for notification center, the middle for spotlight slash Siri, and now the right for control center. That's a that's a busy space. Yeah. That that's a good point. That is a busy space. And I do wonder, I mean, I think this will be the interesting thing is how they will deal with, I guess, like conflicting dynamic island things because already right now, um, if you have something like now playing, but if you have another thing, like there are two things you can kind of see at once, and you can kind of swap between them. But usually once you've dismissed one of the app intents or whatever it's called from the dynamic island, it's gone, right? Like you've got to kind of like pull it back up again. So I'm thinking like if you have I run into this when I travel sometimes where I'll have two competing apps. Um, like my my my uh like the Delta app and Flight E will both be trying to tell me when I'm landing. And um and you know, and and you can kind of get around that a little bit. I am curious if you're going to be kind of reserving some of this space for Siri. Maybe it is just the fact that it's a tap gesture. Maybe that's all it is. It's just if you tap in a certain area, it pulls up Siri and it'll handle the dynamic island otherwise the same way that it has. Um, but I that that'll be the only interesting thing. But you you bring up a good point. It's it'll be it's you now have like three different touch points at the top of the screen, you know, one for, you know, kind of notification center, one for , you know, uh seri or for uh you know um uh spotlight and then uh another for um uh control center. I mean that's a good point as well. You can have up to two things in the dynamic island at once. Yeah. Uh so then it becomes five different tap areas in a very narrow space. I mean we were also talking about this like in our in our Slack, like how is this gonna work on the iPad? Like maybe you just have to drag down from an invisible area at the top. That's just a good idea. So that conflicts as well. Like, but you know, they also have to have it because I mean, when you have a folding iPhone and you have it unfolded to the center and there's no cutout in the top middle of the screen. I mean the gesture has to work the same there. Yeah. At least it'll be really easy to find the center of the screen 'cause it'll have like a big crease going down the middle of the Uh German's post today uh actually says there's two starting points Siri. One is the you know classic speaking the the word. And the second method is entirely new . Quote, Apple plans to let users swipe down from the top center of the iPhone anywhere in the system to launch a new search or ask interface. And then you swipe down even further and then it opens the Siri app, which is a a clever way to do it. I mean Yeah. I mean is it going to be an app on your home screen do we think? Is it going to have an icon? That's what I assumed before I read this. Sounds like it. I think so. I mean I I I think that they kind of ha I mean, I don't know. I guess they could go one of two ways. I would like them to do that just because I think that it would be nice to have a dedicated app where you can have all of your, you know, conversation history and other stuff and just go into it. But I would also like it to be able to be invoked whether it's through voice or through a gesture anywhere you are, right? I I I would I would like both. And and I I you know, um I I wouldn't necessarily want like and I think this would take you out of it to be hon est. If I'm in another application, I don't want to be ported from my browser or what I'm writing or my email or anything else into the Siri app just because I've invoked that, right? Like I think that's a bad experience. I think instead I might just want to bring it up and say, okay, I'm going to ask a question about this. And it can do it in the background and maybe alert me when it has um something that's done. Right. Um or, you know, if I'm using a foldable phone, maybe I have a separate window open, right? Like that that would be that that that sure would be would be great. I mean there are there are like a lot of hidden apps. Like visual intelligence is an app, but it doesn't have an iconic Well I was going to say I was going to say like yeah. The magnifier was like that for a while. Yeah. Um, I can see a situation where Apple thinks, well, you can always open it just by swiping down and then swiping down further. And I can also foresee putting an icon on the home screen might send the wrong message. We're like, we don't want people to think that you have to tap this icon on the home screen and open it if we want to train you to swipe down. If we want you to train yeah, that's a really good point. And I don't know how you handle that because on the one hand you're right. You don't want people to think this is the only way you interact with it. On the other hand, you have people who have four years of built up muscle memory of opening up the Chat GPT app or the Claude app or the Gemini app or Perplexity or anything else. And so there's Yeah, but Al Apple doesn't want to be like those people. Oh I know, but Apple. Well they want to be Apple, but but but but I'm saying this you have like users who is like this is not the first time they've used you know ver uh an A an AI assistant. Like that that's that's the thing. I mean if if Apple wants to come at this pretending that this is all brand new, net new information for its user base, I think they're going to not do well, right? Like uh two years ago they could pretend like everything they were announcing was brand new and and magical and no one else had done before. And then it tur ned out well A you didn't you didn't land it and and B what that was another two years ago. That was another two years ago and two years ago that wasn't even an accurate statement, right? Two years ago it it to me, uh like my my my big critique of WWE of twenty twenty four is I was like, I I work in AI, I know what's happening in this space, what's being talked about and announced does not align with my reality of what I'm seeing and what I'm hearing and what's happening here. Um putting any of the you know claims that they made that now they're gonna have to, you know, they settled a class action over aside. Like it just the the messaging didn't align. Now I feel like again to your point, like it's two years later, you're even I'm not gonna say further behind 'cause I think that they weirdly timed this in a in a really good way, um, for for themselves. But I mean, people have different, I guess, built-in um expectations and use cases and muscle memory for how they've already been using these apps. And so yeah, I I have a feeling you're probably right that they won't make it an app on a home screen. I feel like they will be like, oh no, we don't need this. But there's part of me that hopes that it is there. Just kind of like, you know, passwords was was not an app for a long time. It was hidden in the settings screen. And like you had to create um uh you know a shortcut or at least I did to go directly to that section before they released the passwords app. And and I don't I I I don't know. I just feel like if there's going to be if there's going to be like a level where I can handle, you know, like my, you know, my conversations and stuff like that, I guess that's fine if I either open up the full app going all the way down or if I go into settings to to to drop into it. But I wouldn't mind if there was an application. Maybe Apple doesn't put it on the home screen. Maybe they put it in one of the folders, you know, hidden away, like like like the measuring app or something. It's not that Apple was behind. It's that two years ago, they were two years ahead. Yeah. Yeah, okay. Hire me, Greg Joswiak. Okay, Lewis, tell us about the camera app. Yeah, so we've heard tons about this customizable camera app that's coming in iOS twenty seven. Now we get to see what it's probably gonna look like. By the way, I I just went and checked. I mean Bloomberg said this is based on information that they have seen and information from people familiar with the work, which, you know , oddly enough, those people didn't want their names in the story. And uh also oddly enough Apple refused to comment on the whole situation. But uh yeah, this looks pretty slick too, you know, like showing you actually how you'll be able to uh manipulate the the camera app so you can put the the settings that you want that you use, make them easy to find on the screen. Putting widgets on the lock. Control center stuff. Yeah. It's a similar interface. And a you know, if you've got an iPhone that's running iOS twenty-six, you're gonna say, Oh, this makes perfect sense. And it does make sense. I mean, there's so many the camera app is so I mean it's not as, you know, m amazing as some of the third party ones, but it's got a lot of settings and stuff that are important. And if you actually care about taking pictures and you want to do things a certain way, it's pretty great that you can surface the the toggles and switches and settings that you produce Aaron Powell Last year they they they cleared out all of the buttons and now there's just a lot of blank white space and now they're letting you put whatever you want back in there. So it's not I mean I actually I like the the way it is now. I I prefer that over the Yeah, I'll probably I mean you still have all the functionality. You have to like tap the photo button or the video button to get to the settings. And honestly I might I might keep it in that state. You know, as as much as I fiddle with those everything every time I open the camera app, I kinda like the clean look as well. As we mentioned before, baking in Apple Intelligence. So like now when you s swipe through the the standard things, I think right now it's just video and photo is is the stock thing, right? But now if you slide over one more, maybe it'll be in the center, whatever. I don't think it actually says here, but there's going to be a little Siri looking icon that uh launches Apple Intelligence. So that I mean the goal there is to make that actually visible to people so they don't have to remember, oh, I have to press the camera control and I have to hold it a certain amount of time. And it's it's actually I don't know, I find it kind of tricky to invoke it. I mean a lot of times I accidentally end up opening the camera instead of doing it, so uh the whole camera control has just been a a fussy thing. It's like I guess a shoehorning visual intelligence into the screenshot functionality. But I think all that is done is annoyed people. Yes. Because you and because again, you hit it like when you're not trying to. I'm taking a screenshot, I'm trying to crop it, and instead, now I've invoked visual intelligence and it's now trying to edit my screenshot for me and I'm like, And if you accidentally tap on the screenshot, then it'll bring it up again. Exactly. Do you ever use visual intelligence? No. Absolutely not. No. No. Not unless like Lewis, because I also take screenshots like 50 times a day and I invoke it accidentally. And then I'm and then I'm annoyed, right? Like this is this is kind of my whole beef., I guess Like I'm I'm sorry to be like a hater the last like two years of like Apple Intelligence is that I only use it when it is an accident and then I get annoyed with it, which then makes me not want to use it again. So I'm I'm genuinely trying to go into the new series with like a very open mind and like I I have like uh you know um uh from you know the the reports that are coming out like I and I know people who work at Apple I know they're working really hard to deliver a good experience but I have to be honest, like the last couple of years I've just been like, no, this is, you know, when this gets in my face, it's it's not it's not what I want at all. So no, I don't use the visual intelligence. Do you feel like having it right in the camera app would if you use it more? I would actually. And that's the thing, because to lose this point, I remember when I tried to use it before it was finicky and I was like, okay, well, this is a pain. And then you just accidentally invoke it and you're like, well, now I'm annoyed. But if it was something where, especially if it works, and again, like I keep saying this as caveat, but it's important, if it's actually useful and this time I think they're actually using a frontier model that will be good. So I I I have hopes for that. Then I do feel like that could be interesting where because there are these scenarios this was a couple of years ago now, but there was like a weird um, I guess, uh pan or or or or like some sort of container um that someone gave my my mom and I was like, what is this for? And I took a picture of it and I gave it to Chat GPT and then they gave me a result and I don't know if it was exactly right, but it was kind of close enough. And then I found something on Reddit and it turned out it was, you know, uh either uh like uh it was it was just some sort of weird kind of platter thing. And I would love to have like 'cause you have the scenarios you're like what type of plant is this or or what is this object or you know, um what what um kind of does this signify? It would be much easier for me to pull up the camera app, which you already use for QR codes and for other things to do that than having to think about okay, well now I've got to pull up like a different application and I have to open up the camera there and then I have to go through this whole process. Like I I I think that yeah, if it was built in directly to the camera, I view I do feel like that would be something that I would use a lot more, especially if it works. Especially if it works is uh carrying a lot of weight in that sentence, but we'll see. I mean right now visual intelligence is not bad. Uh I use it all the time to identify plants. Seems to be perfectly fine for that. I've don't know that I've ever used it to like add a concert t you know, ticket to my calendar or anything like that, all the things that they say. I've only been to California once, but it are there just like concert posters on every like street corner? How often is that the case instead of just finding out so how would I know? Okay. Well in in in Seattle we're kind of famous, like people literally plaster um I guess like some of like the telephone poles and other things with you know posters for concerts and stuff. Like it's it's kind of like a known thing. And uh sometimes they're old, sometimes they're not. So I guess that's maybe a thing. But yeah, I mean I I I don't know how how common it would be. I mean I you see it around college campuses and things like that where people put you know signs up of posters of of events. And I guess that could be useful if if you're going to use it that way. I don't know how many people I'd be curious to know how many people just in general. Like I think that's one of those use cases that the AI companies have kind of invented to be like, oh, this is how people will use uh the the fact that the the models have vision support that they'll that they'll do this. But I think it's much more likely, you know, things like Lewis, like I want to identify this plant or I want to identify you, know somet,hing about like this this weird object in my house, or maybe, you know, this type of bird or something else. Like that, that seems like a much more likely thing, just because you've been able to do for years even pre-this wave of Apple intelligence, you know, there have been things built in like, okay, if I take a a photo of something, you know, um the OCR features would let me search, you know, um in in my photos and and pull up things that might have been in that text. Um, and so I can see that being useful. Maybe like again, like it just feels like such a planned demo, be like, oh, I'm gonna take this photo and then say add this to my calendar. When I I think that the more likely thing would be to somebody to see, oh, this thing is on you know uh June 8th. And instead I would just like to speak to my assistant and say, on June 8th, add you know this this to my calendar. I think even if I did like run into a poster and decide I want to go to this event. I would at least like go to the website first anyway to make sure it's exactly what it's about. I guess I've never gonna decide solely on the poster alone. Right, right.. Exactly What I would really like would be for the website to have support where okay, once I've you know signed up or whatever, like it's gonna send a thing to my calendar, you know, right? Or or or my calendar is gonna automatically see you know the email, which already is a feature that that that exists now and say, okay, we see that you you know you have this. Can I add this you know to to to your calendar for you? Yeah, I I'm with you. Like that would be I'd much rather have the website have an easy way to like add it to my wallet, you know, or than than like oh I I just I see this great poster I'm I'm definitely gonna take this photo and and that's gonna be my method of adding it to my calendar. The problem with visual intelligence is that it's ephemeral. Like yeah I could even if I wanted to do that, I could snap a snapshot of the poster with visual intelligence. But then if my friends are still walking down the sidewalk and I leave and then I don't know, something weird happens and it goes away, then I have to run back and take a picture. Like I'm just gonna take a picture in the I'm just gonna take the picture anyway, right, because the picture's gonna let me do the same thing. Um and and yeah, I I I I think I think I think that's true. I think that where where it would make more sense would be if you have some sort of wearable device that has a camera on it that is always able to kind of capture things for that for that the morality, that's maybe not your phone, right? So I'm I'm walking by and I'm I'm wearing a pin, or maybe I have something built into my headphones or whatever, and I'm able to just kind of invoke from there, okay, you know, capture this or add this, you know, to my to-do list or something that I could see maybe being useful. Or maybe if you know, visual intelligence is inside the camera, like taking it with visual intelligence also takes a picture at the same time. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean that that would be a thing too, right? Like if if it's also gonna save it to your camera role, maybe a different part of the camera role, right? Maybe you don't want to take up everything else but, maybe it's organized the the same way like screenshots are or whatever. Like you'd be like, okay, maybe there's a separate section that's just says, you know, visual intelligence. I don't know. All right. So we have we have one more detail, Lewis. The uh uh the grammar stuff? Yeah, uh so that actually looks okay. I mean they have a uh a uh interface here where it has has the original thing that you wrote, long hyphen time, and then the suggestion thing that they want you to change, long time no hyphen. And it thankfully it spells out there that you, you know, this removes the hyphenation, just in case you can happen to figure that out on your own. But uh you know, okay, accept all suggestions. I guess I guess it starts to make sense if you have like a list of five things it wants to change in your you know email or whatever it is that it's checking. Uh but the way it is right now, there's just like uh you know radio buttons that you have to tap and say, so I guess if there's five and you say, okay, I want three and you s ex you know accept the ones, you know, that selection of of things that you have. So that could be fine. Although I gotta say that particular screen looks a lot clunkier and less uh I just I don't know it just looks very basic. Um the current writing tool is how it already works, which already kind of does this, but it's only like a panel on like the lower half of the screen. Right. This fills the entire screen, so you then you lose the context of what Exact writing. Right. That's completely context dependent on what that's going to be, right? Like one of those is like I mean there are stylistic choices there too, but they mean different things. And so I would I would prefer if you're going to show it at least the way that this render does, if I had the full sentence and then you bolded or highlighted the word that you're wanting to change. But I would at least like to see like the you know the full the full sentence so I can see the context because for grammar especially, like that matters. Yeah that's that's a good point. I mean it it is it's it feels strangely disconnected from the process of, you know, writing and editing. Uh so I don't know. That that's the one thing that I look at these and it's like stands out as like uh I don't know how much I like that. But uh uh I guess we should at some point say, you know, obviously this is, you know, based on reporting by Ger man and leaks and whatever, and he even says in this post, oh well obviously this could change. So who knows? Maybe this is just uh the the first shot at this and maybe it'll actually look better. I do like the way that the camera editing tools look, you know, the smart editing stuff, which you took the AI editing stuff, cleanup, which already exists, but then they're gonna have extend and reframe . You know, those might be awesome, you know, extend the picture, you know, like you got a picture of a uh I don't know, a house or something, but you didn't get the the bottom of it. You say, okay, extend it to the get the bottom of the picture. Or reframe it so it gets a different uh you know part of the the frame. I I I of all these things, that to me, like I could see this being working horribly. 'Cause I've never been that excited by the cleanup. If you remember the very early days or people using it and you know these horrible things happening. And I don't use it hardly at all. I I and I mean iPhone. The example that they that they show here in this in this image is a photo of like a a plant sitting on a table and a bunch of other plants and you know it's those are framed in front of like a wall with a bunch of shadows falling on it and they're shadows of plants, so they're very complex shapes. This would not be easy to extend or reframe. No, it wouldn't. But uh which is why like I I'm I'm I think it's it's notable that that is the example that they use. I bet that came, my guess is that that came from reporting, you know, showing that the that would be the exact sort of thing you'd want to show off in a demo scenario to be like this is how good it is is that you notice that these shadows exist in these places and that's a difficult thing to computationally recreate and reframe. Um I I would to to lose this point, you know, the the stuff that is ex existed before, which was based, you know, on the the on-device model, I would agree like is not good . Um Gemini, which, you know, they're obviously, you know, doing their own controls and things on top of, uh, but you know, that's if if that's going to be powering this level of Sirian I don't know if it will or won't, is a really, really good large language model when it comes to image. Like it's exceptional with image, not just with creating images, but with other stuff. I mean, and Google has frankly been ahead of the game on Apple with this sort of thing for a decade or more, right? And and I certainly don't expect that that suddenly like Siri's gonna get all the capabilities of Google Photos like overnight, because I I don't think that that's how that will work, but it does give me hope that maybe they would be able to not have it be terrible, right? Because there are those scenarios, I think, for a lot of people, if it works well, or yeah, okay, I just got the slightly off center and I want this to be reframed, or I need to, you know, ex pand this a little bit because I I missed you know uh part of the the the the side of this or that and and these are you know tools like like you know Adobe has had like um you know content aware fill for for 15, 16 years. It's not like this is new technology per se. It's just that the way that LLMs work mean that you can be even more efficient and you can do even more of it more quickly. Um and potentially, you know, even account for for shadow stuff, which would be wild if if true. Um, but but I can see that that being the sort of feature that for like regular people who are just wanting to get the best photo of their family or, you know, uh their dog or whatever, be like, oh yeah, uh you know, the this was such a great shot, but now i I've had to, you know, go into my tools and try to, you know, edit it and and and frame it in such a way, but now it's cropped in a in a different gulp position. Oh man, if only I'd had you know that that extra you know little bit of space um above or below or or to the side, to be able to do that I think would be really cool. I mean especially when you when you want a picture to be your lock screen. Yeah. The the the iPhone lock screen is a very weird shape. Yeah, especially because like the upper, you know, 40 of it is taken up by the clock. Like unless you intentionally back up really far away as you're taking like a picture of somebody to leave a lot of headroom above the photo , which would not make for a good composition. But that's how you have to make a good lock screen. You know, it's it's it's so true. And it's same thing like when you look at like contact posters for people in contacts, right? And like it'll show you kind of like the post like it'll show you the photos that will look good um when when you're setting that like for yourself or something else and it's difficult to do that because it's just as you said it's just a weird ratio and so even for things like that I think it would be great there there was a mention I think in the report of AI created wallpaper, which whatever, I mean that just seems like such low effort stuff. But the only thing that Who loves image playground that much that they want to see it every time they get a notification or look at their phone. No, absolutely, right. But but but uh but where I kind of go with that is okay, if you took kind of maybe that approach and you're saying, okay, maybe there's a way where we can, to your point, like take photos or think things you want and use Apple Intelligence to um make it iPhone wallpaper ready, right? Like that would be, I'm not gonna lie, like if you could do that in a way that was good enough, which it's your, it's your iPhone's wallpaper, it doesn't have to be perfect. I think a lot of people would be really empathized like, oh okay, this this this photo of my of my baby now looks slightly better, you know, than than the weird crop job that I that I did before. Yeah. Now it has three arms. Yeah. We've also got some details on AirPods. No no pictures for these. You'll just have to use your imaginations. But uh Apple continuously stuffs more and more features into the same menu that debuted with AirPods back in 2016. Hearing aid mode, head gestures, spatial audio, conversation awareness. Each feature comes with its own toggle or sub-menu. Everybody's favorite part of a new feature, new settings. The result is a messy, toggle filled screen that can be overwhelming. Uh well, Mark German said in his newsletter that iOS 27 will introduce a more functional, better organized, and more streamlined experience, making it easier for iPhone users to toggle AirPods features on and off. The redesign should make its way to iPad OS and Mac OS 27 as well. You know, they have all these extra settings for these features, but then they also have like the control center settings where you can chain to the listening mode or you can turn conversation awareness on or off. But they only have like a few of the settings there. For the other ones, you have to go into the settings app. And that's not easy to do, you know, at the in in the blink of an eye of you know you want to suddenly change something. So it sounds like they'll be they'll be redesigning that whole interface. I mean, the pairing interface as well, I like it was cool ten years ago, but I don't need to see a giant thing slide up, take over the bottom half of my screen that says AirPods every time I put them in. Right. No, exactly. I mean it w like like it was ten years ago, it was, it was frankly magical when you would open them up for the first time and and you would see, you know, kind of like that that thing come up. And and now like okay, it's it's not bad, but I'm like, okay, I've seen it once. I don't necessarily especially if you if you pair and unpair a lot, which I I I don't know how common that is. Um, I think most people probably have their, you know, devices uh connected most of the time. But if you are ever in those situations where something is paired or unpaired a lot, you're like, okay, the this animation is now not not the same thing that it used to be. Um the other benefit, frankly, of changing how this looks is that it will take longer, I don't know how long it will take, but it will take longer for the the counterfeits to to copy this potentially, right? Because that that's that's kind of the problem that's that's happened so far, uh, and and this has been a thing, I guess, for the last five years or so, is that you know people can get really screwed buying AirPods Macs, especially um, because those are expensive and and they can make really good looking, you know, fake boxes and then you'll you'll look at the headphones and they'll they'll seem good enough and you you know you you have them in a parking lot behind a store that you've met somebody from Craigslist or or eBay off of and and that little you know pair um animation comes up and you're like great this is legit it is not legit you know this is this is like a a a very bad knockoff that you've now paid too much money for and so I don't know I I don't I doubt that this had that that had any you know play on them redesigning things but maybe it's you're even more scared if you buy authentic airpods max because then you've spent five hundred fifty dollars for that experience. Don't even get me started because I've done that twice. So don't even don't even get me uh it like mistakes were made not doing it a third time. Um and uh but the uh but yeah, but I mean, you know, I I'm sure that that wasn't part of why they went into this, but that might be for a brief window. I have no doubt that someone will reverse engineer the setting screen and whatnot. But but for for a window of time, I think that'll make it harder for the the the non AirPods to to you know maybe appear as themselves. I'm honestly uh afraid to pair my AirPods with anything else because I don't want it I don't want it to be ruined. Like they work they work great for me right now and I Bluetooth I has burned me so bad that I I don't want to try connecting it to a switch or anything. In fact what I want to do when I want to listen like both to a podcast and uh you know, like play video games is I put in the airpods and then I have a separate pair of headphones that I put over top of them. Oh my god. I've done the same thing, honestly. I've done the same thing and which is so dumb. And and um and I do have uh but what I also do and this is also dumb, but like I have number of pairs of AirPods, I have AirPods Macs and then I have my Sonos headphones and I have some Sony's and other things, and then it's just almost like I have like you know, device determinant headphones . Um and like when I travel especially, I don't think AirPods Macs are good travel headphones at all. Um for many, many reasons. Um and, you know, that is when like but they are still remembered. They're not not actively paired with my phone, but like my phone remembers them. Sometimes I have to go through and dance again. But it's usually one of those things where I'm like, Okay, I can use this. I have the airfly, you know, set up if I need to use it, you know, um and um uh uh on the plane and and we're good. But yeah, I mean it's it is it is kind of silly. Uh Apple really has nailed the their workarounds of Bluetooth so well that we're willing to either have them in our ears and then put other headphones on top of it to multitask or buy completely separate headphones that we're not pairing with our our you know just with our iPhone products just to avoid uh the Bluetooth pain.. Yeah Why? It never got better than that. Yeah. It's true. It's true. Yeah, there's a lot of stuff in there. There's a lot of stuff that's like to it's fun, you know, a lot of features and fun and useful to to go in and change things. And lately I've been uh experimenting with the hearing aid mode, which I put off doing for ever and ever. I finally took the what what'd it take? Like four minutes or something to do the little uh hearing test, which always makes my the hair on the back of my neck uh rise because I hate those hearing tests . Start to notice the tinnitus from years of rock and roll. And anyway, uh so I've I've started using that a little bit and it is by the way, if you haven't tried it, I mean it's great. It's freaking weird. Uh it's it's it it's like you're Spider Man or something. You can hear things that you never heard. I I I was in Ohio, like I said, uh and I was listening to a podcast or something and I' fordgotten to turn off that hearing aid mod e and I I was lying in bed and and I heard with the air air pods with the hearing I was I heard this noise. I'm like, what is that noise? Just little thing. I was like, oh my God, that's rain. And I took that thing out and I couldn't hear it all. Wow. And uh wow, I guess I do have some moderate hearing loss. Anyway, uh but it's it's also I I think it actually makes you hear things that like maybe normal people can't hear. I mean it it feels like I was telling Grimm this. I I feel like I'm on a like a or in one of those videos where they're doing, you know, foley jobs for a movie, you know, like every step is like a a creek that's not actually a shoe on a floor. It's like you know, whatever it is to make it sound like a really impressive sounding shoe on a floor. Everything is hi it's like this hyper awareness. Um so I I I just want to mention that if people have those things and they have any sort of you know hearing deficiency, hearing loss, it's a pretty great feature. It's pretty amazing. And I tried it uh on this last trip just you know like at uh you know going up to like rental car counters or something, right? 'Cause I I mean I s I don't know if it's just me and it might just be my hearing loss, but I mean so many people these days are like I help you Worse yet if they have like a a face mask on and there're can't you know it's just impossible to tell what people and and I find myself like angry old man like I'm sorry what what I can't hear you so uh that helped it's it's uh you know, it's a little slightly less angry. Yeah. But she has, you know, some hearing loss, but she knows that her hearing is not as good as it used to be and she already wears AirPods all the time anyway because she's always listening to podcasts. Like my mom literally has like three pairs of AirPods. I'm not joking that she cycles through every day and then she sleeps in them too and then we'll get up in the middle of the night and we'll like change out like the AirPods and and it's it's whole thing and say smoking. Genuinely, genuinely she's she's with them all the time and but she uses the hearing aid mode more and more frequent ly and and um you know it's great for watching tv and for other stuff and yeah I mean even if you don't like I I can't take advantage of it because uh unfortunately the hearing test is like oh no your hearing is is great and like that's awesome. But sometimes, you know, you would like to maybe like you said, like you're you're at a rental car, you know, counter and um even if you have great hearing, that can be a scenario where there's a lot of noise happening coming from a lot of places. People might not be speaking super loud um and and you've got you know things coming in from other places. That's nice. But the the downside of all this, and I think this is kind of what like German had pointed out, is that they've added all these features to AirPods over the years, and it's just really difficult to find it, right? Like I wonder how many more people would even be aware of like I think Apple's done a pretty good job um uh socializing the the hearing test feature, but like how many more people would be aware that yeah this can actually now be used as a hearing aid um if it were a little bit easier to to manage the the settings. And I think though the the reporting also said in this I think this goes to maybe your theory, uh Griffin, about them not having a um Apple and or a separate Siri app is that um you know apparently like they they've heard calls that people want a separate AirPods app, but a companion app You know, they have like an API where you know you can add a a uh an airplay button to the bottom of your you know podcast or music app to control your audio destination um an airplay if you want. Maybe a maybe they'll have like a um a an a a similar API for that to like evoke you know bring up AirPod settings. Because right now, I mean you might not even know that you can do this. Like you have to bring up control center hold on the volume level thing and then you see the AirPod settings. But I mean if that were like build if they're redesigning this while they're at it, if they build in like a system API where you can add in AirPod settings directly from Overcast. I mean that would be excellent. I have to I have to check uh can you do the uh hearing aid thing Aaron Powell I don't think you can for that. Although I wish that you could, but um but I'd I'd have to check. But uh I wouldn't be surprised if they added that though, right? Like if if you could turn it on off. That would be awesome. Because I frequently use that setting. You you mentioned that, yeah, I don't think a lot of people know it's in control center. If you you know tap and you press on and hold, you can adjust the settings and you can say, okay, I want it you know to be um you know dynamic or do I want it to be you know noise canceling or or whatever and you can also you know change your volume and and other stuff that would be I think fantasti c if you could do the the hearing aid mode that way too. You know how it when you're setting up a custom control center, there's like the two special ones you can do that fill up a whole screen. Like you can make the connectivity widget full screen or the um what's the other one or the or the like the you know the smart home stuff, I think is, the other one. Um maybe maybe that's how it'll work. Like it'll be a control center screen that's like all AirPod settings. See, I think that would be great. I would love that. Because already I have, you know, I'm I'm dealing with you know going into that setting area a lot. I would love that. And then if if and then at that point I think if it was in control center then it it should be shortcuttable and so then if you could like create an automation right where you could then maybe say turn on you know um hearing aid mode or turn on this or that like that would that could be really cool. And then it'll be Apple intelligenceable as well. Yeah, there you go. Christina. Why don't you tell us about um not the Apple car, but uh next best thing. I was gonna say there's no Apple car, but Johnny Ive did in fact design a car. Um or at least worked on a car. So um Ferrari officially pulled off uh the wraps off of a Luce, I guess that's how you say it, which is its its first ever all electric vehicle. It's also their first five seater and their first sedan . And this uh uh um was uh designed or I guess worked on from um uh uh Love From, which is the collective that Johnny Ive does along with um Mark Newson and and uh they work together on the Apple Watch and and I think uh you know the the trash can Mac Pro and Mark Newsom has done a lot of other projects too. They work together very closely. And so this came out and you know uh the the kind of the the joke is like other than the color and the fact that it has like the the Ferrari badge, like this does not look like a Ferrari, which is kind of what and this was the article that you guys wrote on on uh cult of Mac kind of said that like the memes race to poke fun at Johnny Ives new Ferrari luce design. Because when you look at it and I'm not even a car person, but you have an idea in your mind of like what is a Ferrari and then you look at this and you're like, this is not a Ferrari. What is this? The the memes are pretty hilarious. And oh my god, it's it's like the California or the Los Angeles may're race. There's so many AI like long AI videos like basically dragging uh Ferrari through the coals for this, you know, like uh this horrible thing, you know, it I can't even say what they say because they're pretty there's a lot of swearing. But uh you know, pretty hilarious stuff. People did people did not react well. There's I think Ferrari's stock tanked like seven points that or seven percent that day. I don't know if it's back up, but uh yeah, oh my god. I gotta say though. Sorry, go on. I really like it. You like it? I think it's a good car. Yeah. Figures. Like th those are jokes that um oh, you know, it it it looks so much like the Nissan leaf and like, yeah, sure. And like the grandmother accidentally buys you like a Funtendo Wiz instead of a Nintendo Wii kind of way. Like you don't have to be, you know, Doug DeMiro car level expert to be able to tell a sports car apart from a mid-sized SUV. Like yeah, they're they're the same color and I guess car-shaped. But I I think it looks good. It looks very distinctive. Like it's got I didn't realize this until like I really looked at the design for a little bit, but and you know, some some electric cars, since they don't have like the engine under the hood, they have like the the frunk, you know, the empty sort of area. But what they've done instead is they don't have a hood. It it's not like a solid piece in the front that's like a crumple zone. It's like imagine like a magic mouse how it's sort of like surfboard shaped. Uh it's like that, all the way from the tip of the front bumper. And then it's like a continuous glass piece that goes all the way to the tail. And then they just have like an overhang that's hood shaped ish. It's like an illusion. I think it looks really cool. It looks like a good place to for leaves to accumulate. Well, they would just they would just blow right through 'cause there's nothing there's nothing there. I mean Yeah, there's nothing for really shape. Yeah, it is. Like you've got like this this whole kind of like top piece of glass which is which is essentially, you know, kind of kind of your your your roof and your hood thing that kind of then you know cascades into I guess like the the front of the car. I mean it's a close I mean how do you make an electric car that's not just like I mean the peak aerodynamic shape is just like a curve, like an egg. And nobody wants to drive an egg. You know, one of my favorite cars is the Honda Ionix 6, but I like it because it looks so bizarre and weird. It has like that weird sloping, sloping back. But you know what? What they've done here is they they they they have an illusion because like they have Yeah, yeah, like the i I think they they claim that like it's the lowest drag coefficient in Ferrari history, achieved through arrow styling, conversions, active air shutters, and ride height logic that lowers the front by 10 millimeters even while cruising. I mean, okay, you're spending $650,000 on the card. Let's also point that out. I hope you really in enjoy it. But no, it's it's an interesting, it's an interesting design. It just it's it doesn't look like a Ferrari. At the same time, I'll defend them a little bit. Like this this is not a sports car, this is their first sedan, this is a five seater, this is not the typical thing that you would have a Ferrari for. Does Ferrari need to have something that's not, you know, the typical sports car? That I'm not sure about. Um but you know that that that's that's an interesting challenge. I do think the interior, at least the interior shots like it looks it looks great. I think the interior looks looks really fantastic. Oh yeah. It looks gorgeous. You know, even the rear looks really good too. It has sort of like those um uh Chevy cobalt rear tail lights on the black panel with like the circle donut shaped lights in the middle. But I I think that're they're trying to evoke like the Ferrari F-40 or the other ones that have like the circular taillights, but I I've seen more Chevy Cobalts than I have Ferrari F40s. So that's what I think it looks like. But you know what? I thought that was an attractive rear taillight design. Uh you know, where it's the those cars all like 20 years old now, where they're sort of disappearing from the roads. But you know, we've we've got a Ferrari doing it now. Like it I think it's a good look. And the interior, yeah, it's it's gorgeous. Like they've they've developed like a bunch of custom OLED displays that wrap like around and inside the physical controls that you still have. Like they wax poetic about how how precisely they've they've engineered these parts and focused on like the button feel and the switch feel of all of these things. Like one of the first cars I drove was like a 1991 Honda Accord. And like every single button switch was had like micro switches in it that had like a really good th unk and click feeling. Like I would just, you know, press a bunch of the AC buttons and like switch them all on and switch them all off like one at a time just so that I could like press all of those buttons all in a row. And you know what? Yeah. The buttons broke. Uh I have a new car a newer car now that has more reliable buttons that haven't broken, but they don't feel as good. They're mushy. It's like it's pressing a calculator. Who wants to do that? I I I'd love to touch the buttons in that interior. They they look really nice. Well, I just did you see the video where Johnny Ive was talking about touch screens and cars and basically saying it's it's a horrible interface for a car, fantastic for an iPhone, terrible for a car. He's absolutely right. I mean, every time I try to use like car play, like I I constantly like, well, I just wanna put you know, fast forward the podcast for sixty seconds. And am I gonna die as I do it? 'Cause you know, you you're s you gotta look at the screen. And and frankly, I mean, that would be less troublesome if their touch targets were uh larger . But uh I thought it was interesting. He he went on and on about, you know, the the beautiful way that those those things you're talking about, the switches and the all that. And and yeah, I I think you know, I think this car looks fine. If it was a sixty thousand dollar electric car, I'd be like, Yeah, that's awesome. Six hundred and forty thousand dollars or it's a Ferrari. I mean like we we w look, none I I I don't think that there are many people who are kind of in our kind of audience who are the actual market for this car. I think that it's like do you live in Dubai? Um and and and and then that that's kind of like your you know, your your plot thing. If the answer to that is no, then it's like you are not like the target uh for for for for this car more than likely but what happens with these sorts of things um is that you will see kind of the and this happens historically is that and you see this in racing too is that you see like the the things that start out kind of the high end that's the supercar market will trickle down into into other car designs too. And I and I don't know if that's gonna be a scenario that will happen here because it's not as if Ferrari is somehow breaking new ground by having a an electric sedan. Like it's come on, guys, that that that that's kind of been a known quantity for a long time now. Um but it is interesting, I think, to kind of see their approach at that. And and yeah, I I agree. Like I think that Johnny, I was completely correct in talking about the importance of having physical controls and cars. That said, I also think that the way they are using screens in this interior is really smart, right? I think it's kind of the combination of the two things where you're expected at this point to have more screens that are probably going to be LED powered and not, you know, like like like physical, you know, like uh, you know, mechanical um dials or whatnot. Um, but if you can pair that with physical buttons . I think that maybe is is kind of the the the best of both, where you get things that can kind of be dynamically updated as as they need to, um, but also I'm not having to take my eyes off the road. I can you know, scroll through something with a button or a knob um and and also feel more confident in what I'm doing rather than um okay now I'm uh playing the iPad you know as I'm driving you're like okay well no wonder you're you're getting in a car accident because like the i it it is sort of weird that it is illegal in most states, um, in the United States anyway, to like be on your phone or have your phone in your hand um while you're driv ing. But it's completely fine to be interacting with the giant iPad that is in in in in the front of of of your Tesla or you know any other modern car at this point. Like that's completely fine. But oh no, if you've got if if if you've got the phone in your hand, you're gonna get a ticket and points on your license. The worst part about a screen is that you can't like rest your finger on a button and wait to press it. Right. Like as soon as your your finger touches it, it it immediately activates. So like you have to be extremely precise. You can't even if you know where all of the buttons are, like you're I mean you're driving down the road if it's a bumpy road like your finger's like bouncing around like it's not a precision instrument. Yeah. You've got to like rest another finger on like a dead spot of the screen and like to like make sure you can align it up right like in in this Ferrari there are all of the there are the screens, but then under each like thing that you might adjust, like airspeed or temperature, it's got it has a physical switch underneath it. Right. And you can use either. Um I mean in in terms of the price, like yeah, six hundred forty thousand dollars, that's an insane amount of money, but you know, that's not like the cheapest Ferrari. Like Fr there are cheaper Ferraris that are in like the two hundred thousand dollar range, but maybe this will eventually get there.. Maybe I mean, usually I think Ferraris to start in kind of the three hundred thousand range and you have to be on a waiting list. So even if the the list price is a certain thing, I looked into this a long time ago. So if I'm wrong, listeners, I apologize. Um but I think typically how it works is like you've got to be on a waiting list and and many times those lists are years long and so people will spend more money or dealers will spend more money to to get people off of lists faster. But yeah, I mean this is obviously you could get a Ferrari for less money, you know, spend only three hundred thousand dollars on a supercar. Um I mean I and I feel like this is part of part part of the reason for this price is this is the first sedan , right? This is the first like one that they're kind of doing. But yeah, there's there's nothing to be said that you might not see these kind of, you know, design features or motifs be um adopted or or, you know, inspired by, you know, fut ure car makers who are maybe selling hundred thousand dollar cars instead. It's the same thing that that works with Apple. This is the first time they had to develop an electric drivetrain from scratch, you know, the first time Apple like redesigns a MacBook Pro, that one's that one's gonna be more expensive. They raise the price for that, and then it and then the prices go down over time when the features trickle down to the cheaper models. So how how do the specs uh check out y you're a car freak, Griffin. Did you see this? Under 22 kilowatt hour battery. That's that's like standard for a big battery. That the Tesla Model S has had like 100 kilowatt hour batteries, I think, going on like 10 years now. You're you're really limited by like volume and space. Like cars are only so big. That's about as big as you can fit a battery underneath a car, unless you make it like extremely long, like a limousine. Um, that's pretty standard. Four electric motors, like one motor per wheel, that's something that you only really see on like highest performance ridiculous supercars. You know, it's usually one motor in the rear, or if you if you want to go ridiculous, you have one in the front and in the back for performance models. Four motors is like that's supercar territory. Zero to sixty two miles per hour in two and a half seconds. I know I think some Teslas are down to like 1.9 seconds , but those don't have a Ferrari badge on the front. Yeah. And and those don't have any physical controls. So Yeah, I I bet you that those physical controls are something else. I mean, I would like to just sit in one of these if somebody would ever let me into one. I mean here in San Francisco you can pretend to be rich and just go to a dealership and go to a dealership. Yeah. Yeah. 192 mile per hour top speed, uh, that's that's pretty high. Not a lot of Tesla's go that fast. Three hundred twenty miles nine mile a range. I bet you don't go that far if you're going 192 miles per hour. No, but you know what? Like you don't get that sort of range like in a regular Ferrari. Like a gas powered Ferrari, like they they have like awful, terrible gas mileage. So I feel like I mean this is slightly different because again, like it's it's a sedan, so it's not necessarily like a a a a s a super car type of experience, even though it's priced like one. But you know, that I think is the interesting balance that they have to strike here is like, okay, how do we have a a big enough battery that will, you know, power this for what we want, but how fast we go, even though it maybe isn't as fast as our top line um cars, you know, what are we doing? Right. That's the thing, right? Like that that that I mean, because cause that would literally I mean that's been one of the things um I think correct me if I'm wrong on this that has kind of really held back uh kind of the the higher end kind of manufacturers from going into electric is the fact that the power that would be required to you know from from from electric to you know do a lot of the things they do just you're you're you know you're you're there's just not a battery big enough in the in the the the space constants may maybe if we had a different type of of material maybe if we weren't using the lithium ion we were using you, know, nuclear, maybe that would be different, right? But but but putting the different energy, you know, thing thing aside, there are just like some like hard limits there. So I feel like from an engineering perspective, it's impressive that they're able to kind of fit all of this in this type of you know sized car with these types of features. Unlike a gas car, it can control each of those motors incredibly fast. It says that it updates the actuation 200 times per second. So, you know, this is the car you want to be in if you're you're driving over icy roads. You know, I mean the traction control is insane on electric cars. Um each wheel has independent torque vectoring, active suspension control, independent steering on the rear axle. They said for the noise, you know, some of the so some of the traditional car companies moving into electric cars for the first time, like dodge, they'll give you like a fake V eight sound. Uh but in a very Johnny Ive way, they say a precision accelerometer mounted at the center of the rear axle captures the actual vibration of the rotating electric components . That signal is filtered, equalized, and amplified, working like an electric guitars amplifier. The result is a sound rooted in the real physics of the machinery, not synthesized. Ferrari spent five years and forty thousand kilometers of dedicated testing developing it. That's I mean you can see you can just imagine Johnny I reading that aloud. I was gonna say I can I can I can hear it too. No, it's it's uh it's incredible. Christina, last time you were on, I think you were you were you're on medical leave. I was on medical leave, yeah. I I had had surgery um only a couple of weeks, I think uh prior to that. And so I am now back from medical leave. So yay. Had you already started on at GitHub before that? I had. I had. Yeah. I'd already I'd already started back at GitHub. So uh long story short, my background is that I used to be a journalist, then I went into um uh engineering and um I was at Microsoft, then I was at GitHub, then I was at Google Deep Mind, and now I'm back at GitHub. So now now you're back there again, full time. How how how long have you been back? Um, I guess I've been back from medical leave since for about a month and for about six weeks now, I guess Okay. It it's a real busy month, month and a half. I don't know. We've been in the news a little bit. I don't know if you've seen it, but yeah, no, a lot of people are using GitHub and which is great, but can also uh can also lead to some problems as uh as as you know, any any time you have your your you know traffic volume, you know, uh ramp up fifteen times um uh you know unexpectedly, uh that that can that can lead to some lead to some uh uh performance and and raw reliability issues, which uh the team is like very much dedicated and and trying to you know improve and and and get under control. I'm I'm sure this is very low on your list of priorities, but my my personal website is hosted on GitHub pages. Yeah. As a matter of fact. Is that at risk? I don't think so. No. Look, we go we we we use GitHub pages all the time too, right? Like obviously if if there are performance like issues where you know something goes down, like GitHub pages can also be one of the services that can go down. But no, I mean like get get it's it's uh we're actively working on trying to uh improve the reliability of the site all But but we've seen a tremendous amount of usage of GitHub page we've seen tremendous amount of usage of everything. Basically since um uh end of November, basically the the long the story short of it is that the capabilities of the frontier models changed in a very important way, where like the Claude and the OpenAI models got really, really good in ways that they weren't before. And so you started seeing agenda capabilities that you know had kind of been talked about as types of things that executives like brag about, oh well this will change this and that to actually being like, oh, no, this is actually good enough um now um uh for um a lot of use cases and what happens with that is that when things are really good, people use them a lot. And where do people tend to store their source code? GitHub. Where do people tend to deploy their code? GitHub. And so if you have like this kind of ramp up and model capabilities, ramp up in more and more people using the models because they've become so good, more and more people, you know, exploring coding for the first time because now they can get really good results from , you know, their own steering. Even people who had been professional developers who might not have been buying into the AI uh uh a hype around like the productivity gains you could gain uh you could get are now going, oh, okay, now the the capabilities are actually good enough that I would use this and and and would um you know let let this do work for me more and more people are going to be building things more than ever before and I'm sure that you've seen that just in the the number, I mean Apple's even seen this. Like the the App Store review times have gone through the roof. And that's not just because of vibe coding, but that's definitely part of it is that more and more people now have easier ways to build apps that are are performant and are good. And there is, I think, some for some people a little bit of kind of a derogatory kind of uh you know association with hearing the term vibe coding. But at this point, I don't know any professional developer. I know that there are people who are out there, but I I personally don't know anyone who is not using AI um you know assistance in in their tooling of some sort um or or agents in some way and and it's it's just part of how things are built and and what that does though is that obviously the the AIs can go much faster than you know human would. And so you have like we have a s you know slew of new Mac and iOS apps that are available from people who might have great ideas and and would say, okay, well this was something I wanted to build, but it would take me, you know, six months or a year and it as a side project. And now they're like, okay, I can do this in an afternoon. And then continue to iterate and refine it um and and and ship it. So right now a lot of that cost is amortized because all of these AI companies every single AI company is losing money. I think sometimes by a ratio of like 20 to 1. If the how how do you see that going forward? Because obviously it's an untenable situation. OpenAI can't keep burning money forever. Uh if if they were fairly priced, how do you see the economics of that changing? Like would these products still be good enough that people would spend 20 times more on it just for the same thing? Aaron Powell Well and I think that's actually kind of what we're seeing right now. I mean, this was in a sense that we we've had at at GitHub, we have a product called GitHub Copilot, which was one of the very first AI, you know, coding assistant products and it also you know works similarly to the way that Cloud Code um or or OpenAI codoc does um but you can choose your AI models so like it's not like you can use either either model actually or you can even use models from other providers too with it. And we'd had kind of a flat pricing where you get a certain amount of requests for certain amount of money a month. And we've had to to change that. And we had to change that just because the A , it was difficult for us because again, as the model capabilities increased, our own costs went through the roof in terms of like what we would pay for requests from the model providers went way up. Trevor Burrus So people can ask for more complex questions. Exactly. Because it used to be one of those things where you'd be like, oh, okay, well a request will cost about this many tokens. And tokens are how the um the you know um ai kind of economy is is kind of mediated. That changed when suddenly your cost could be okay, well it could be this many tokens or it could be this many. And and some of the newer models also use a lot more tokens and and can um also store more context and more information about your code base which means it's going to potentially cost more and so we've moved from you know like kind of a flat like um you know fee to usage based billing, which is where the rest of the industry has moved unless you're in the consumer space. Like uh I think Claude Code uh for Cloud Code Max and and uh Codex like they still subsidize for their individual users if you pay $100 a month or $200 a month, you might get more than $200 a month in in you know actual usage. But if you're a business, yeah, what you've seen happen from all the major providers and and that includes GitHub is that we're moving to these usage-based models. Now, what will that mean for how people will use these tools? That's what we're figuring out. And I think that there will be some circumstances where you'll go, okay, you know what, the results are still good enough and I'm still so much more productive that it's worth me paying whatever this cost because this is so good. But I think in some scenarios it becomes okay, well maybe I don't need to use the latest, greatest, most high-end cutting edge frontier model that costs a bajillion dollars, maybe I can use something else. Or maybe I can even use local models for for certain types of tasks, right? Which is I think really great. And this is where, you know, um Apple Silicon is is really ahead of the pack in in some regards because of its unified memory and because of the fact that so many people, so many developers use Macs, there's good tooling built in, um, which I never thought I would say for AI. Um that AI has always kind of been the home of like like Windows and to a lesser degree Linux. That's where the development has always happened historically. Um it's always been NVIDIA chips and NVIDIA's programming interface, and um and now that's you know changing with with Apple Silicon and with the tooling that's happened in the last few years. You can do a lot with local models using you know things like LM Studio or OLAMA and other applications on your Mac and you can even integrate that into you know your your um coding applications. And so I think what we'll see is a mix because you're right, I don't think that these labs can continue to subsidize these things forever. But the question will become: okay, so this is giving me great results and this is doing so much for me. Is it so much better that I'm that I can afford to spend what this is costing, or am I just going to maybe go back to you know using humans for some things, maybe using um uh less expensive models, right? I mean that that is kind of the irony is I think people are looking at the the cost and going, okay, I can just pay a person to do this. The problem is, at least, is what I personally have run into is in the last you know six months, like you become addicted to the speed, you become addicted to how much more you can accomplish. And I sometimes have to kind of set myself out of it and go, no, I don't have to use AI for this. I can actually do this, you know, myself too. Maybe it takes longer, but I can get a result and it's it's gonna be just as good, or maybe in some cases better. Um it think it just comes down to expectations. But yeah, I think that that's going to be the challenge that a lot of businesses really face over the next year is okay , we know that our developers finally are liking and using these tools. How do we manage the costs? And maybe how do we find like the right balance of like what models we use for certain purposes? And I really do feel like like local um models um have a great opportunity here. The one caveat is that as all the money, you know, that's being spent on data centers happens, all the RAM, all the, you know, uh SSDs, everything is going into that. And so, you know, it's more expensive than ever before to buy a really beefy, you know, laptop or or or Mac mini where we can't even get, you know, Mac minis anymore. Um and and like that would be a great, you know, maybe machine. Like the the Mac studios that have the highest grant capacities were the first ones that they cut. They were like, no, no, no, we're not gonna sell those anymore. Um and and so, you know, like it it's kind of like this this uh I guess at least until something uh either more capacity breaks or there's some other sort of change, there's just kind of this tension where it's like, okay, everybody wants more compute and we're still constrained by those things. And as a result, the prices are what the prices are. Everybody, everybody benefits from more efficient models. I mean the the data centers become less expensive now that the absolute disappearing from the world like you those won't need as much. And it'll power like yeah I mean I think pretty powerful things. Like if you can r run all these things on device, then you know, I mean suddenly it it's a software issue where Apple the the main limiting factor is Apple just doesn't let you build apps directly on an iPhone and iPad. Right. No, absolutely. Absolutely. And I will say this too, you know, the prices of the models right now are really high and that is ahistoric. Usually the prices go down, these have gone up. But I will say, like if you look, and granted, we only have about five years of data, but if you look at kind of what the progression has been, you know, the the tend to uh the capabilities of the higher-end models do tend to kind of trick le down. And so I'm hoping that we'll see that. There are also some models like a deep seek, you know, um, which uh their pricing is very, very competitive. Their capabilities are not going to be as good as what you would get from the highest end you know models from open AI or um uh anthropic but it it the the pricing is is is very efficient. Now there are I know people have their own kind of concerns geopolitically about that, but those models can be run on um you know uh you don't have to get them directly from DeepSeq they can be hosted on other you know like uh American or or European um you know cloud hosts uh too and I think that that's that's also interesting to see that there's like almost the these kind of two kind of warring like fractions where you have the major frontier labs that are getting, you know, more and more powerful but more and more expensive. And then you do have like the Chinese labs that are doing some really interesting things that with efficiency and and with price. I could pick your brain on this for another hour, but I know you've got to get going. You've got a you've got a real job on that. So uh uh it's not WWDC, but Microsoft Build is uh is next week and there will obviously be a lot of AI stuff and there might even be some, you know, um there's gonna be definitely some GitHub stuff too. So that's that's why I have to unfortunately uh depart because I have to have to go to a meeting for that. But imagine you've got things you you've got a busy schedule. So yeah, I guess if you if you'd like more Christina Warren, uh you can find her on Mastodon and Blue Sky at FilmGirl, and on the Mac Break Weekly Podcast, uh and at GitHub. I uh people can find you. I don't know, just walk over to the GitHub headquarters and knock on your door. girl on Twitter and uh Mastodon. I know it's confusing. This is my bad. Um I again like I didn't know when I created my handle in high school that this would be my professional identity. Mistakes were maybe made. I don't know. But yeah no but if but I think if you Google Film Girl you'll you'll find most of those most of my things. I think even like uh Christina.dev is an ancillary website that I have set up and I need to uh add more things to it and yeah I'm uh I'm on Mac Breakweekly every Tuesday. Okay, you heard that mom. Text us on imessage at cultivacpodcast at iCloud dot com to send in questions, comments, and feedback for the show. You can send an audio message or a short video for us to play too. Thank you all for listening, for watching. We will see you all next time. Have a great weekend. See ya . Bye . to mistake. Exactly. There's the curb . Then what's the what's the tandem bicycle for the mind? Oh god, that's a Vision Pro, isn't it because you've got to be connected to the battery pack and everything. I think you're right, yeah. I don't know why they why they call it a spatial computer and not a tandem bicycle for the Wow. Is this the first time Gurman has ever done mock-ups like this? I was trying to think that. I I don't think it's common. I think he's done it like once before, but not he didn't make like a big feature out of it. Yeah, I mean I I don't know. It just as people say, it just hits different . It really does. I mean I wonder if Apple's gonna go after him. Well it doesn't look like well well they're also yeah, as Bloomberg, they're gonna go after Bloomberg, but they're crediting illustration seven thirty one. So I wonder if they used like a if if another, you know, party illustrated that for them, because that's who the credits are too. Well uh AI told me that that is Bloomberg's in house design. Oh amazing. Okay, great. Even better. All right. That's okay. Yeah. Uh 'cause they're located at seven thirty one Lexington Oh that's right, they are. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've I've been I've been to the Bloomberg offices a number of times. They um they have a really great cereal bar. Oh yeah. No, genuinely. Genuinely. Yeah, genuinely. Like like um in in like uh one of the the main kind of promenade things 'cause I I used to go on Bloomberg quite a lot and I would love like when I would leave doing especially an early morning hit, they'd have like this massive cereal bar that was just kind of, you know, take what you want of like every type of cereal you could imagine, every type of milk you could imagine. You're just like, Okay, cool. Rat milk, just like on the Simpsons? Malk. Malk. We've been out now with like vitamin N or whatever it was on uh the substance. But yeah, rat milk, exactly. I like the do they do they have like the Malto meal like knocko ff uh cereals as well, if you prefer the knockoff instead of the original? You know, I don't know. I I guess I I I have a feeling they were probably all the the brand names, but they weren't they were it was kind of like in college where like they're in like kind of the dispensers. So I it's saying but it doesn't come out of a bag. Right. Well yeah, but but but it's much easier, you know, to to pour it into a bowl or or a cup, right? 'Cause the thing too, is like you have it to go, right? And so many times I would like have like you know, um like okay, well I've got to get back, you know, um uh lower um uh manhattan so I'm just gonna stop on the floor, grab myself a little um cup full of uh uh you know cheerios or or something and some milk and frosted mini spooners. Correct. And then just be like, and and now I'm gonna get on the subway and and go a few stops. But yeah, I mean we could not I mean look, I think between that and like the Bloomberg terminal access, I was like, oh I this this would be an okay place to to to work. Um clearly my standards are very low. But