Tim Cook and future leadership

Coming up, the Lite colors coming on the iPhone eighteen Pro Powerful software features comeing to the folding iPhone Reports that the Vision Pro's death are greatly exaggerated, reports that smart glasses are greatly delayed, and are WWDC keynote predictions. Welcome to the Culture Teack Podcast. I'm your host Dee Griffin Jones, joining me today from based on his image clloudy and Bue San Francisco Lewis Wallace Hey, how's it going? Actually, it's beautifully sunny here today acting Got him inside. in some sort of bat cave Also joining us, we've got our full panel of guests. We have Graham Baower and to Charlie Sal Hell And w Great to be here Whenever you two are on it, it feels like you know, the extended family coming over for Christmas. Oh, that's nice. Except with that weander here. it's like An dad forgot to thaw the turkey you know making a trip to Walmart Let's say yeah.. Lehand is the one who makes the embarrassing comment at lunchime. Oh yeah, yeah. Let's get a quick vibe check from the two of you. you know, WWDC is next week. Are you excited I'm very excited, I'm pumped. Is that the word I don't know. I'm the opposite. I'm Deflated Yeah, yeah. I haven't been less excited about WDC, WWDC Riders for balls. Yeah, sure You two are from the Apple Core podcast. This is the first time we've had both of you on the show with us. The Apple History podcast game, it's a slightly more crowded space now. H you heard about the new show that Jason Snell is launching Graham We have we have serious competition there. Yeah But I hear that's many stories to tell. And you know, I think I feel like he's popularizing the category, which is going to lift all the boats in the harbour It looks like it's going to be a scripted thing like his twenty Max for twenty twenty Yeah. ye. So I think yeah. I'm looking forward to. I really like his stuff Ha Enough chitter chitatter. Let's move on to. We've got a busy show today, Lewis Tell us about the iPhone eighteen Pro colors Dark cherry on top. Oh yes. Yeah. so images posted early last not early, was it early last week? It was last week. I think it was just after we did the show like maybe that Friday. A any Christmas. Images posted last week play a leaker known as Sony Dixon, maybe youve heard on some social media sites. So they showed a bunch of dummy units for the iPhone eighteen Pro that showed four different finishes Um pretty good look at probably what they're going to look like. This guys stuff tends to be pretty accurate. Link models appear in Dark gray. Really going on a limb with that one. silver. Also extremely controversial, light blue and a striking deep red finish called Dark cherry. to sound of that although. I wish it was wild cherry named after the famous Fk band from what was it Yes, that's right, Mingo Junction, Ohio If you're waiting for me to like help you out there, I have no idea I' never even heard of Mingo Junction, Ohio, anyway, play that funky music U Let's see. So Dark Cerry' it's been subject to rumors for months, you know, exxpected to service a signature look for the iPhone Pro eighteen Pro just s as the cosmic Oange was the standout Oh, it's you definitely have a new phone and I can tell cololor. Supply chain reports have described the shade as a wine inspired red rather than the brighter reds Apple used on previous devices Dixon's images line up with leaks from April that giveave a first glimpse at the range of colors of the eighteen pro and proro Max see blah blah blah. these leaks if this is true, you know, this means it's true that the cosmic orange will go away kindind of sad. I don't know Yeah you' an orange fan right, Lis. Yeah, I mean, ot one I might tired of looking at it. Bright orange case I mean, I don't have a problem, you know telling which phone is mine and which one is my wife's, which was a real problem when they were just like blue and slightly darker blue or gray and slightly blu or gray or whatever, you know, year after year, same size phone virtually identical cases and everything is constantly, you know, getting confused, even with the always on display You know what bugs me about this rumor is the way that they describe purple as red I don't know why, but there's this thing about purple. It's normally people describing blue as purple when it's blue. And I get really bugged People gettingetting the frequency ranges of colors wrong. and Let's be honest there's no sense is this a red? You could say it's in the sort of purple violet Eic and also, I mean, I love I love cherry as a flavor. I love I'm going to make cherry pie this weekend because cherry Oh yes. backack in the Northern hemisphere. I love cherry. and I'm so happy about this news. It would tempt me to upgrade, just have a purple phone I just will not stand people calling it red because it is not red. Cherry is a dark red. cherries aren't blue or purple. You know what the color is, it's like the color of cherry yogurt. I do take a little bit of issue with with the pictures that Sonny Dixson took here because first of all, he photographs them on a brown table, which is not like a neutral color My office is sort of like beigeish. I have a lot of brown furniture and stuff. So I mean, I know from experience that like it thrs off the color balance if you try photographing something on brown. And you can also tell that because the one that's supposedly silver in some of these pictures looks like Almost as blue as the blue one. So like the color balance is off. So I don't think we can necessarily trust the dark cherry here That's true. So you're thinking everything's looking a bit bluer than it should. So this is probably slightly less blue and Therefore Maybe. I mean, if there is off like they they don't look the same across the different pictures either because the lighting is inconsistent. I mean, my question for Lewis is, I mean, you got the special color last year, the orange one wouldould you get the Dark cherry this year when you upgrade since you're on the program Yeah, I do like the funky colors. you know, I want them to be new and different. and I want to, you know, just encourage Apple to keep doing that rather than going with gray and lighter gray and darker gray. and silver And, you know, this one looks good Although I got toa say the thing that bug me the most about the orange is also here in that The frame is a lot darker than the Glass back And I mean, to me, that's the part of this whole redesign that came out last year that that I like the least, you know, just visually. I just like the Part of the orange one is pretty dark orange and then the back looks like a, you know dreamsyle or something. it's much lighter. and it really But you know it depends on which angle you hold it at. L every iPhone that I've ever, you know had since I've started paying attention to the colors, they vary so much when you turnurn them into the light. I wish that they they made the, you know, the back of it like the glass part. I wish they made it color match the aluminum a little better. I don't maybe that's just not possible. I mean, I'm sure Well, I'm not sure they've tried. But you if you look at some of those, you look at them head on pretty you know, like one color, but then you you look at the you know, a couple of the kind of off angle ones of the dark cherry. it's like Oh, looks kind of like dark cherry, you know, dark you know, kind of like a light red wine. And then the other part looks like You know, wine spritzer or something.'s It's much lighter. And then you look at like the curves aren't like the camera plateau and like they reflect light differently. Parts of it look much lighter and other parts and the shadows get like much darker. It's a very dynamic color. So if you get like the, you know, the, if you plan on getting like the flagship hero color every year. What color does your wife get? Doid she just get silver U lets see, this year she got the blue one, which I got to say. I mean, looking at them both side by side, I mean, the blue one does look good. It' and it's less of a contrast the back to the sides. you know, it looks more uniform I would have been perfectly happy with that. I', you know It's a color that's covered mostly by a case. Yeah. But u You see more of it now that they have the giant plateau than you do before That's true. And I've heard people say, like, like Leander was in one of the newsletters I forgot that my phone was silver or I'm like, Wow. do you ever look at the thing? I mean's two by four area there that's just what color it is I think the blue looks like the color that old people dye their hair You know, like a blue rinse. Do you have that in America or is that just a weird British thing I always thought it was to offset the nicotine stains that they get in their head when its. I think people would be happy there's a black one this year A lot of people were bummed. There was no black last year Yeah, I think that I think these will be a popular if this turns out to be true, I think'll be a popular section of colors I can imagine people will moan about the Cosmic orange going away, though Yeah, I will be. I don't like this new purple or cherry It's too close to Burgundy, which was my school uniform colour and still have trauma about that I mean, not that you plan on getting a new iPhone, Charlie, but what color would you pick out of these four U probablyb the Probably the white one, the silver one, with a case with a I mean, got I have a bright case so. Like you said, if it's inside the case, I don't like the blue, I find it insipid. The black is fine that The cherry is It's moo.' a good call it. Yeahah they could if you want help, may me your colours apple just hit me up Are there ever going to do like the thing where like you put a bunch of stickers on the plateau You put on a bunch of tiny sticks? Oh my God. I can't show you my phone because I'm using it for the video call, but I've gone I've got a little stick. I got that little sticker as o Do you Yeah, of them one of them is a sticker off an orange. I think you need a special it's like the U two iPod. This will be like the Prints iPhone Oh yeah. Now that's not Princess Purple's way more blue than that okay Well, as we don't know yet, we've got to see it for real to know if Prince would have used this phone I bet Pince I just had people make phone calls for us. Youll have to you have to see Apple's pictures. which will look stunning. And then you have to go to the store to see what it really looks like and be slightly disappointed. Well, let's talk about a moreore exciting phone in my opinion The folding y firm IOS twenty seven might finally bring split screen multitasking to the iPhone for you know one specific device. Apple was reported working on new multitasking features in IOS twenty seven, they would automatically adapt any iPhone app for landscape and split screen layouts the u Foldable iPh. I dont know if you' Heard about it, they're working on that. Well reportedly feature a short outer screen about five and a half inches for use when closed Th then I it would open book like to provide the user with a screen akin to an iPad mini in landscape aboutbout seven point eight inches The latest iPhone multitasking rumor comes from Weibo Tipster. Fixed focus digital. I don't know if I recognize that name who wrote over the weekend that Apple is working on what some are comparing to parallel view on Huawei's Harmony OS, which is based on Android, various Android Devices have supported this for a long time Apple's reportedly developing a system that learns how to scale apps wider rearrange layouts and even let apps run in split screen mode. I mean, they really have that already developed. It that's just iPad OS really just working to bring those iPad OS feature flags to screen sizes and device types When you have the phone unfolded Is it roughly the are you looking at screen? It's about the same shape as a regular iPhone screen? So I actually have a markup here. C four by three. on side because I'm looking at the illustration in the article and it looks just like a regular phone shape. Yeah yeah, I've seen this. I think this ' kind of it would be neat to have Something on one side and something on the other Like you got to beheav I've been thinking about this from an app developer's perspective, and I'm pretty sure you can already see exactly what this is going to be like because this is basically if you take a a max or a What was the other big phone Then I put a plus. A plus, thank you. You take one of those and put it in landscape mode Then it switches from the size class compact, which is the normal iPhone size class the regular size class, which is what an iPad is it doesn't get all the iPad features And I think this is what we'll have with with the foldable iPhone when you open it up So there's the size class compact and regular, which is P iPad There's also the idiom iPad, and iPhone And so when you when you when you put a big phone in landscape mode You will get the regular size class. so you'll see a sidebar on the left hand side donon't get like multi windowing, you don't get sideidebar adaptable tab bar. You know, on iPad, the tab bar appears at the top of the screen. onn an iPhone, it appears at the bottom of the screen. But if you look in landscape on an iPhone, because it's still the iPhone idiom The tabbar stays at the bottom of the screen And I think that's what we're going to get here. So if you' look at a landscape Max phone right now and imagine it was twice as high That I think is exactly what this screen would look like. I don't believe that will cross the streams and make this iPhone pretend to be an Phone I think it's idiom. it will declare to all the apps is o hi, I'm a I'm an iPhone And apps already some apps already support that. You know, some app developers turn off the rotate thing. But if you look at what happens to an app a on a plus size or max size phone in landscape, that's basically what this screen is. I would that if I wasn't a betting man, that I think any clues we get next week it will be around that. And I think that The reason they need to bring split screen to The iPhone is because it won't have the multi windowing of iPad because it will still have the iPhone idiom And so in that sense, I think the split screen will really come into its own when you when you kind of open up a fold and then you can see two up side by side. the curious thing in my mind is What will happen if you have two apps side by side and then you close the phone I assume that the app which had focus would then just take the whole screen and the other one would be behind it But overall things as an app developer, I'm very curious about. This is something I probably said on the podcast before because it just annoys me that more people in the press don't understand this. But like OS and iPad OS Apple talks about them as if they're different. they are literally the exact same software and operating system. like developers know this. you know you only have to download you know, whatever version twenty six point five wants to get both the iPad and iOS versions because they are these exact same software Apple just makes them different by enabling different feature classes on the different screen sizes and like pairing that to a device. So like they declare this device that you're running on is an iPhone, therefore it gets these features But, you know ' all that stuff is still in there, like support for Multi Windowing and all of the quote unquote iPad OS features are still in IOS. The difference though, however, is that apps that you run different a developer can make an iPad app that's just that only runs on the iPad version of iOS and they can make an iPhone app that are entirely different U so That's like the developer story here that I think we'll hear a little bit about. Probably not in the main keyne but at like the u at the developer state of the Union. They'll probably have like a lot of APIs to talk about in that realm and they won't say what it's for, but everybody can read between the lines and say, o suddenly I can, u turnurn my iOS app into an iPad OS app basically and they'll be basically say, hmm, interesting. Well, that's right. I think you I don't think you'll get the iPad features on a on iPhone because I think it will still declare itself as an iPhone. But it's interesting to see what will be there and what won't So like obviously this will be technically capable of doing the multi windowing thing on a bigger screen because like it'll have the same screen size as the iPad mini and that has it as well. But I think but I think it'll only be split screen. And I also bet that's why they were quick to implement split screen in iPadOS twenty six shortly after. and in conjunction with the new multi Windowing system because they'll need both If they spend a lot of time showing us what side by side split screen looks like in landscape mode on a max, that's definitely a clue Yeah You know, because what we get at WWDC when they tell developers to focus on certain things. it's they they don't don't tell you why And something like it would be an extreme edge case to worry about what sideide by side split view looks like and landscape on a max But it could be, you a precursor to something more interesting Now, what I'm hoping for is that This could be a device. I mean, we've seen this with iPad. like this is a device that will be perfectly capable of being plugged into an external screen And you know, running full blown like multi windowing on a desktop like, you know, five K display, just like the iPad can. We've also known, like the MacBook No has proven without a doubt A device running on an A series processor is perfectly capable of doing like real computer things like video editing and you know advanced multitasking and running a bunch of like complex big things at once and The ihone the folding iPhone will have an A series chip that's two revisions better than the MacBook No So Like this device will have a really high potential I think a lot of how good it is as like a computer replacement or, you know, the The single device you can use as your one and only computer for like real computer things is entirely dependent on how much Apple bothers to enable on it Yeah, I totally think that's going to be the issue and I bet. my prediction for like this fall when it comes out, if it comes out is that because it's declaring itself as an iPhone It can only do a fraction of what people want to do with it. And so it'll be like the iPad all over again. It's like this is this could be an iPad, but it's not why Apple, why as someone who doesn't own a laptop and just has a Mac mini, like, it would be awesome to know that if I ever like need to travel You know, if I'm ever invited to an Apple event, how cool would it be if I donon't need to bring anything and I can just use like my phone to like record a podcast, plug it, you know, do real computer things with it. That would be awesome Okay u Quion for you about a phone that is going to be used a lot more in landscape mode Before smartphones, we photos were all in landscape mode Videos were all in Escape mode. Now we used to you know everything's portrait And we don't hate, we don't even hate portrait video anymore U So do you think if everyone is using these phones. the Iceland Fld or whatever. In landscape mode, that is going be going to become a thing again you think maybe because when Apple does something then Samsung will copy and then it willll become a although Samsungs already doing phones and Apple's late to the folding phones But you know, the fact that it's becomes like a a main thing that everyone's A default almost It could popularize it more for sure. Yeah mean, I guess it doesn't matter. I just wondered if it's going to make I mean, that's predicated on everybody having a folding phone and I think If it's two thousand two thousand five hundred dollars Even if you consider, well, that's the equivalent price of buying an iPhone in an iPad and MacBook No people are still not going to do that. Maybe you get a case that makes it look like your regular iPhone is a folding phone That could be a ch. I think the square camera sensor that they did they introduce it with the last iPhone, the square camera sensor and that will make a lot of sense on the on the fold because it can take landscape and portrait whichever orientation You have it in. And so yeah if you're like eighteen or under, then you're only interested in portrait photos There's no landscape And so you could have it in landscape mode and still take portrait photos if you want It says portrait and boomer mode. you said is what you're saying Yeah I also think it would be really cool if they have like a camera that can S switch between a portrait and landscape with like a big square sensor. What if you could simultaneously record portrait and landscape video and have like Orient new video either way after the fact? That would be cool too You should be able to do. I mean, if it captures the whole sensor, you could definitely do that, right Yeah, it just is more storage, but That's kind of what happens now with If you set it into sixteen x nine mode When you come to edit it, you get those kind of lost pixels. It's just a crop. So You know, you can always rever back to fourth three. All this is to say that like The longer we wait for this phone, the more excited I get for it and the more I imagine they could do with it. And I think if anything my disappointment will be on the lost potential. me. Are of you interested in this device? I have no need for it and I don't really want it, but I'm getting really fascinated by it. And I also kind of feel like it's a different enough form factor that you maybe need to test apps on it as well your notification to to get one Oh yeah, you just basically have to you know, just professionally speaking, you have to. Yeah excited it just comes with the t it comes with the job, is I'm kind of I'm fold curious. I think it maybe it's stupid It maybe a bit stupid, but I'm kind of still interested I like a look of it but won't be buying Deinitely want to check where out. I'm most interested to see how they've solved the screen folding. ' not they're not to sell a phone where the screen is terrible When is when is when is Fairfone going to come out with a folding device to reallyally you can just buy two and put the ening them together,? Tapeem together there al ready And scatch. Is anybody working on Linux to make sure it supports folding devices Shut up Okay, why don't you tell us about another exciting product that you're never going to buy A Apple smmart glasses, which may not arrive until late twenty twenty seven Okay, so previous reports say that it was going to be coming towards the end of twenty twenty six. Mark German M Apple Guru Mark German, his latest power on newsletter has said it won't launch until late twenty twenty seven top airport executives which is including which includes Tim Cook and John Turners are backing the project. The Vision Products group which is developing the smart glass has been led for turners for the last two years And apparently they're not giving up on the Vision Pro yet either which is a good thing for Graham who's just bought one U They're going to be making Germman says they're been working on a smaller and lighter version U, but, you know, that's That's going to be yes. twenty twenty eight. late twenty twenty eight says Germman Although Ming ChiQo just swooped in with the with a kind of counter on that say, maybe there wouldn't be a successor to the the Vision Pro. And last I saw and this has all been going on today Gam and Mink Chi Kuo have been sort of duking it out on X on this one. So don't love to see that. They should actually do that. smmack down Garman confusingly said yesterday Yes, while they're developing it, the product category has also been put on ice. which is a statement that conflicts with itself. So which is it? his b Are they just making one for funzies and just never going to release it or what? My feeling is that all of these rumors are sort of coherent if you take the spin out of them. which is that there was going to be a vision air And that's been scrapped and they're not currently working on a successor to the Vision Pro but they probably will do one in due course Um I that sounds feasible to me. and I think one of the things that was inferred from Some of the early reports was Oh, because they're not working on new hardware right now, then theyve scraped Vision OS And I mean, we will find out next week, but I very much doubt that's the case because I very much hope that's not the case. I hope that's not the case, but I wouldn't have bought a Vision Pro if I didn't believe in the platform. And I think it's strategically important to Apple And it's not like Apple is short of a few bobs. Apple can do whatever it wants. If Apple thinks something is important, they can spend money on it for as long as they want to. and they did with other devices like the Apple TV Sett box So there's no reason for them not to carry on developing Vision OS unless they really don't want to. U now I think they will stick at it D you want to hear the bad news about the apppplegasses es. They are going to rely, well, I mean, we knew this anyway, but this is called out in Kotvack arrticle on the sub on this on this story they will rely heavily on Siri and Apple intelligence So There's, you know, maybe that's why they're been pushed back. Maybe it's not maybe it's not the hardware What do we think about this product category? like that smart glasses? Is this a good thing? a bad thing? a creepy thing? I know, Charlie, you think it's a creepy thing, right? Yeah, I think it's creepy. I also think Hm But why is he say? Well because you can just video people without knowing And once this is connected to AI stuff and the All of the pictures ' been scraped off of the internet you're going to be able to You know, just see a picture of somebody and know about He's going to be able to like just like in justust like in the sci fi Yeah, but mostly it's cameras. Did you see Joanna Stterns article video this week where she paid her to have the indicator light removed from her Facebook Raybands Oh Well, I you could record record without them And ironically, people are selling those services on Facebook Marketplace. Yeah, that was the best part So Yeah, I think and I also don't think I think it's a product that Apple wants to happen and Facebook definitely wants to happen becausecause you know, the creepier the better for Facebook. Yeah' just is it creepy?es that okay, let's put money in U, but I'm not sure Who really wants it? I mean, there are definite uses, but as a mainstream thing, the phone is already, that's the thing with a lot of this stuff with the Vision Pro as well The phone is already good at doing all the things we want to do And they these these new these new products Don't necessarily there's no obvious thing that they do better They don't do anything, you know, you can't just pull out of your pocket and look at it on the on the train or the metro. taking a photo with it is creepy. I mean you can take pictures just fine with your with your phone and you'd have to wave your head around to do it They just don't seem to be plus, you know, the displays aren't going to be very good in a they just can't be, you know, they're not going to be as good as looking at a lovely phone screen. our screens are amazing and huge now But I think the room that the first mark glasses won't even have a display like that. down the line they might add a display, but the first Apple I almost wonder if the launch was delayed a year because they like scrapped there was before that, you know, this year, they'll do the basic one that they rush the development of. They would just be like basically, you know, a camera and built in AirPods and voice control and that in twenty twenty seven they would have like the first one with a basic screen anyway. So I almost wonder if they just like decided The basic one isn't worth shipping and they're just only going and the first entered in this category is going to be the one with a tiny screen in it. If they were only a few months away from like launching it this year anyways And like then suddenly it's delayed another twelve months. That seems weird to me The other thing that's weird to me is having sound in these because like you talked about integrated AirPods and they could do that. but I think that would make it look really geeky, wouldn't? if the end of your glasses were like airports that go into your ears? I don't know if that's a look that people would want. It doesn't need little speakers in the stems that point in the direction your ears. like Vision Pro has, but everyone can hear Vision Pro. you know And so I pretty large marginals as well because in glasses so I don't believe it will have sound. I think it will work with airPods. you put airPods in your ear, you put these on, which means the only thing it really does is have a camera. potentially, there were some rumors saying that it would be able to support the same awesome hand gestures that Vision Pro has But then there were other people saying that's impossible because Vision Pro uses loads of cameras do that these smart glasses won't have those cameras. But I have found one thing since I got the Vision Pro a couple of weeks ago I love those hand gestures and I stop trying to use them in my whole everyday life if I want to shut someone up just to t my fingers and I want them to shut up, you know like as you close the window by looking at looking at the pross button I even wear a watch on my wrist, but I still do the thing, like where I try to like look at my hand and then turn it over to see the time I catch myself doing that all the time It's so great these gestures and so if they can bring those gestures to a smartwatch that you can control You know, because you've got on your airPods, you can do all this weird stuff where you fiddle with the stem of your airpod and it's really fiddly And if I'm on a run, doing that Then I worry I'm going to yank the airport out by mistake But if you could just do a vision proro style hand gesture without lifting your hands That would be amazing if that's something that this could do. But I have also seen rumors saying that that rumor is preposterous and that you would need so many cameras to make that work and it' just not you need a screen as well, right? Because of it part of the gestures is that you look at things and you perform the gestures on them. Well, that' you could have to be able to seeuff like the taps that you do on the M. Um, the stem of your airport you could do that anyway. So like just one tap of your fingers to pause or I' do I wonder what the streets are going to look like if these things take off and they do have gestures because we went from the only people walking down the street talking to themselves are crazy people. Now everyone does it, and you can't really tell Are they on a phone call or are they are they in that case And no one's going to be walking around twitching And you're going to think, well Do they have are they wearing apple glasses or Picking invisible glueing off the straight as Lewis described it. They're making gestures at me or are they making gestures at their glasses You know, one of the things I'm thinking about here is if it does have a camera and if it has stereoscopic cameras then it can take spatial photos And that's another reason why Apple might not have given up on Vision Pro And I know I'm kind of beating aead of h here, maybe, but the E when you have like they talk about these waveforming or beam forming u glasses where it's like augmented reality overlay on real life lenses. And you can do that. I've tried some products that do that already, and they are quite impressive. And combining that with Apple's AR technology would be quite impressive. And I'm sure Apple's heading that way But that will never be a good way of looking at photos because the problem is that The images it can create are translucent. because they don't mat out the light of whatever's behind them So it gives you that it gives you a really cool three D effect. but it's like a kind of Holographic display in a Star Wars movie or something. It's not like something you would actually want to look at your photos when they're being overlaid with real life So that's another reason why even if they get to the holy grail of this category which is genuine see through lenses that are overlaying an augmented reality experience It's still not a way that you would really, in my view, want to watch movies or look at photos. I think you would still want something more like the Vision Pro for that Well spepeaking of the Vision prayer, since we keep. ack to that. Why don't you tell us about yours, Graam. Okay, so you put this in the show notes and of course, I'm more than happy to talk about the Vision Pro for as long as you almost talk about it I wrote a piece for Goltimac just last week about the Vision Pro And the reason I wrote this piece was because I thought, and I know some people do think I was a bit weird for doing this because literally it was about a month ago NC Rumors has published its bombshell piece saying that all development work had ceased on Vision Pro and it was, you know It was a dead parrot. it had ceased to be and The thing is that I've been holding off on getting a Vision Pro becausecause when it came out a couple of years ago I was just launching a new business and I needed to be a little bit sensible with my money. And so I just thought, you know, I'm going to be the sensible adult here and wait And But it didn't sit well with me because I have been an early adopter of almost every Apple platform that came out. I mean, I literally two thousand one when the original iPod came out You know, the original Firewire iPod that only worked with Max I was at Mac Expo at the Islington Design Center in London. I was one of the first people in the UK Buy it And I flew to New York to be one of the first people to buy the original iPad from the Soho Apple store in New York So this is my level of dedication to kind of new Apple platforms And just to say I had a friend buy one and send it to me Oh Okaykay, Yes. so I have done that. It looks Well, like I like going to New York anyway. So it wasn't a chore, right? So It didn't sit well with me that there's this whole amazing Apple platform that I didn't have a device for and Not only that But I'd never even used the thing And, you know, so I was like really curious and it had been on my mind and, you know, ask forward a couple of years. and I was thinking You know, I could actually afford to buy this now. It wouldn't be such a crazy thing And then this this Mack rumors, bombshell report drops that, you know, Vision Pro is no more. was actually I was chatting to you, Griffin about it and I think you partly convinced me because you said, well, you should get one anyway because, you know you just want one so And I thought that's kind of true. I mean, life' too short, you know, but it also as I was thinking about it do genuinely believe Apple does its best work when It's on its back foot. you know, when it's the underdog, it's they're a clutch company, right And so I just feel like Wh Vision theS is now They had like the division of West team, like the renegade team at Apple with this product that, you know, even the CEO is like, you know, got questions questions about And I think that's no bad thing because they've got a lot to prove And if you look about everything about Apple's Come back in the early Os I think back then Steve Jobs was leading a company that was like swimming against the current. And so they had to swim twice as fast as everyone else. just to stay in business That was as a result, an incredible time inv innovation for Cuppatino. And I think since then U You know, I'm actually not at all negative on the Tim Cook period. I think that they have just executed incredibly All the plans that Steve Jobs set out and maybe executed better than Steve Jobs even could have done. right? So they've had an incredible run Um But I do think, you know, With success comes a degree of complacence and it's great that they have a product that's struggling a bit because I don't think that they're quitters. and I think they're going to They're going to mess around with this until they figure it out And I want to be part of that journey. It's another point that I made in my Pace for Culture M In the early days, product with a new user interface Third party developers can play a big role in figuring out how that interface should work So a good example of this was I can't remember his name, the developer of Tweety, the early Iie and Brichor Yeah. Yeah And u he came up with the pull down to refresh And so was it was a really nice gesture because if you like scrolling on Twitter and you get to the top And there's no more stories and then you pull then that actually calluse to refresh the view And so if there are any more stories then they load into the list And it was a really neat, simple idea. and Apple was so impressed with this idea. they implemented it as a system wide gesture that developers could support and So I have a few ideas. I'm not going share any right now because you know, I want to make my own little ding in the universe. But as I've been thinking about taking my apps to Vision No Eth I have a few ideas. I think are going be pretty neat about how you can use volumes and the three D interface U to good effect, you know, And so That was another reason like I although it makes absolutely no sense to support my apps Vision OS so that me and Griffin can use them. U I'm still gonna to do it because it's just really intriguing and a lot of fun. And so yeah, that was my story. I'm not saying that I think Vision Pro will ever be you know, a smashhip product like iPhone, but I don't believe all the doom and gloom The final point that I made in the article was If you look at what Vision Pro has already contributed to Apple, then I think it's a lot. We've got spatial photos and we've got Liquid Glass have very much come from Vision Pro. And I know liiquid gllass is quite divisive with some But a lot of the aesthetic of everything. I was looking at the WWDC keynote from last year. All the way in which they presented the screens and stuff, it was all like vision pro style windows And so I just think what you have with Vision Pro is like an ideas factory where they can really be more experimental, try things out and things that work, they can then bring them to other platforms And so I think for all of those reasons, it's like a really neat Sunkworks project I think has a role in an organization like Apple where a lot of what they do quite rightly has to be very sensible and focused on You know, a tiny decision that we make could have massive ramifications when we ship hundreds of millions of products And Vision Pro gives them something different to play with and I think they need that. So I think it has a role in the organisation as well and to your point Even though, you know, it's a whole other platform, like Apple is a huge company with unlimited resources and compared to the incredible like tens of billions of dollars that every other company is pouring into AI applic can afford to like sink. I mean, this is small potatoes. They can afford to like have, you know, a team of people working on Vision OS. at no loss to their bottom line. The only reason to stop development on Vision OS is if they just don't want to do it I don't believe they don't want to do it Even if they don't plan on making new hardware, like, you know, Sure, they don't have millions of people with vision pros out there, but the people who do have them are Apple's most loyal customers. They would be incredibly irritated if Apple just said, no, we're done I think the most important role for the Vision Potofil is that of the Mac Pro. So so fans can be desperate for a, you know year after year could still tell themselves that there's a new one coming. Well I mean, with the Mac Pro I think it's an interesting analogy there. because I was thinking about that as well. Is it another Mac Pro that they will kind of keep it in the lineup, but it will get You know, progressively older and long in the tooth. The differe and there are a few key differences, but I think the main one to me is that if Apple made one mistake with the Vision Pro In my view, it was probably the price And the price was a necessary evil because they brought it out when this technology was so cutting edge Normally and it's true embarrassingly with the Mac Pro They leave the price the same, even when the value proposition degrades over five or six years to the point. It's embarrassing to have it still on the website But to be honest, if Apple decided, well, we're not going to do new hardware, but we are going to price at some point to something more affordable You know, in three or four years time, I think the current Vision Pro still looks like a credible product. It would still be probably best AR VR headset on the market by thing about the Mac Pro is that it was not the only computer in the world. Every other computer got faster and better and smaller whereas the Mac Pro stayed exactly the same D Vision Pro, like there's no other Vision Pro. There's only the one. It's the only spatial computer of its kind. They can leave it exactly at three thousand five hundred dollars and say, well, it's still worth three thousand five hundred dollars. Where's the other one that makes this one less of a bad value I do hope they break the habit of lifetime though and see an opportunity to cut the price on it to bring it more into the affordability range of more people because I think there is so much is so magical about this product And a lot of people would be in the position that I was in two years ago of like, I just cannot justify spending that much money. And you know, if they could at least get it to the point where it's half the price it is today I think a lot more people would be tempted because, you know Just as something for looking at photos and movies, it's incredible but No one's going to spend You know, three and a half grand just for something to look at at photos and video, however great it is. And so I think it's an amazing product. They need to get into more people's hands. And in order to do that, they need to do something on the price So what have you liked about using your Vision Pro? What do you what was what exceeded and what was below your expectations I think what exceeded my expectations was just what a pleasure it was to use. and The what do you call it, the non functionals of it, It's just a joy to use this device and it's actually surprisingly intuitive U That's what impressed me most plus. This incredible thing when you're looking at the actual immersive videos that Apple does how real they are to the point at which Like I think they have like metallica concert and I was watching a bit of that And I don't know who the front man of Mantallica is, but I was invading his personal space. like I would never stand this close to someone. And I' truly uncomfortable and I want to take a step back. But I can't and I'm like right there in his face and, you know, and he's going to hit me That was an incredible experience because the physicality of it is like Nothing else U and The thing the one thing that I'm disappointed by and I'm hoping we'll get some prorogress on this next week is u the object occlusion Like If I raise my hands, say when I'm in an immersive environment A doesn't Good job of includluding my hand. It's a bit fuzzy And there is a degree of lag to it. If someone walks in front of one of my displays don't walk in front of the display. The display stays in front of them And if someone which I can I could think, well, you might say that's a feature not a bug because Why would you want someone to stand in front of the thing you're looking at And I could see that, but with widgets, it's a different story. You know, withith Vision Pro you could put widgets on the wall. and it's weird if I put a clock on the wall And then someone walks in front of that widget. and The clock is in front of them It destroys the whole spatial metaphor So I think they can do a better job on object oclusion, especially for widgets. but also I think for windows, they can maybe identify your attention if you're looking at the window then they shouldn't do object oclusion of something in front of the window But if you're not looking at it, I think it should look more like a part of the environment If you think about it, when I love the way that if I drag a window around my living room, it casts a shadow on the floor, and that's amazing But then if I just put it beyond the coffee table, so it's a bit behind the coffee table sort of floats in front of it. And again, and that undermines the spatial metaphor. So ye object oclusion was the thing I was disisappointed about that bugs me as well. L I use the I use a Vision proro usually on a sofa And if there's like a pile of pillows to my left, I don't want a window that's supposed to behind it to appear in front of it. So I'll like actually move the pillows. like if I have things on my coffee table that are appearing in front of a window, I'll like move them to a different place so the illusion isn't broken. It's really uncanny when you have a window that's supposed to be five feet away peearing in front of like a cup that's, you know, only three feet away, I don't like it at all. It sounds mind bending. It's really strange.ave you used one, Louis No, I have not. I'm so embarrassed. I tried like crazy, but I just couldn't get it to work because I'm so blind Yeah, I tried Grahams last weekend. It's the first time I tried one. I couldn't see where I had to do a lot squinting because I could't wear my glasses inide I was despite that, I was I was impressed I thought I I mean I would I can't see why anyone will buy one. can't see a use for it, but it's like watching well I guess the movies, the videos, the The immersive stuff and the gestures. I found all of those super Super good, Really, really nice S suggestions, especially I wish you could have the The control center, the command center, thing Like this the twisting, the finger twisting. I wish she had that on the mat because I hate I hate the control center on the mat. I just do anything I can to avoid it Control Center a notification center on Vision Pro they need some work. It's like they're sort of built into one interface, but they like So you have the thing where you look at your hand and you see d.. you flip it over it and you see a little widget that has like the time and the battery You click your fingers on that and then it brings up control center. And then notification center is another screen further inside of that. And even though you don't have all like the regular control center buttons, it's like its own custom thing. So like there's not like a full screen like focus mode thing. it's not It's it needs a little like I really love his newest but like That whole system could need like another revision or two. And also the home screen just bothers me immensely. I actually prefer the old Vision OS home screen more than the current one. Before it was like it would just put all of your ads in alphabetical order, except for the first screen that was a little bit special. I kind of liked that honestly, now You can fully customize the home screen, except editing the home screen on theis on vision OS is like the most frustrating experience of all because is it worse than on the iPhone in the. Oh ye Yeah, yeah. because can go like that. It's like seven you can see seventeen icons at a time and you although it's like this, it takes up it's supposed to take up like my entire field of vision They limit it to only seeing one page at once And so like trying to move things between screens is incredibly slow. And like you're moving it off to an invisible imaginary area to the left to like Go to another page. it's It's. I just want like One screen and an app library, and I don't know why they won't do that for me I listened to last week's episode, was it orr the week before where you tid it up, Landers I'm screen And I got to say it made me feel anxious just the idea of it. I'm not letting Griffin anywhere near my home screen because he' going to be deleting icons left right and center I thought Leonon was very brave. Maybe that's why he's not here this week. Oh yeah, it's dramater. I' still trying to put it together. I get home to work again Ever since that little tip from Griffin, I have realized I never, ever, ever scroll to the second and third or fourth screen on my iPhone. It is complete waste of. I mean, Griffin's one hundred percent right. I still haven't done it. I still ha't like taken it remade it the way he did, but I can't imagine that it's you know, any worse than what I currently have. I mean, there's probably only Three apps that I regularly, maybe five that I regularly tap onn the screen, the rest of I search for. And they're not even on the screen. you know, like I might use them more than anything And I haven't bothered to, you know, shake up my precious home screens. It's probably been that way for ten years or something, you know Oh, I gota nested in this folder and tap twice andes I mean speaking of searching for apps, there's no way to do that on Vision OS unless you have a connected Bluetooth keyboard. There's no There's no interface for summoning sppotlight or anything.' going like typing on it if you don't have a keyboard is like the most frustrating experience in the world. Honestly, what I do is I use the voice assistant. I just say open saafari and I look in the direction I want the window to appear and that's That's way faster than going to the home screen. and then swiping across like seven different pages to find I never used the the voice the voice stuff in Like in public, withith my phone, but what I'm mean with Vision Pro. I mean when Once you're down that road, you know, you're already gone Yeah Isn't interesting you say that because there was a rumor, I think a year ago The team working on Vision OS were frustrated by how bad Siri was And they felt that voice was a really key part of the Vision OS experience but they just couldn't make it work the way they wanted to I mean I will say the Voice assistant isn't good on the Vision Pro. It just does that one thing better than like swiping through the awful home screen. Yeah. But I think given that we' supposedly getting an all new Siri pered by Gemini next week I think that that's going to be a big part of the Vision OS story of like more voice support in Vision OS I just had one more question. I'll go for it. Charlie, what did you think when you're sitting in the room with Graham and he has that thing strapped to his head and vice versa I I mean, I didn't really see him in the room, but Martin's been we had a shared group and he's been taking lots of pictures of Graham doing different bits and pieces. L he had to buy a set of straws to drink his coffee because you can't drink when you your in the Vvision Pro So we were teaching about that Yeah. then there's just what was there was another picture of you doing some strange hand gesture I can' remember that was a picture of you like sitting Well frustr the break about it actually is you know one of the cool things well I don't know if it's cool thing or it's a stupid thing, but one way or the other, Vision Pro puts a picture of your eyes on the front of the Vision pro so everyone see what you're looking at But I never get to see that Because the way that it works is it's based upon your persona that you set up when you set up the Vision Pro. so it's your eyes that it's showing If you if you, you know, if I let Charlie use my Vision Pro then I have to enable guest mode And so Ghetme doesn't have a persona of Charlie. So you just see this weird sort of purple and red oil slick animation it should have googlely eyes on there. When Charl is using it or when any guest is using it. So I've never actually got to see what it looks like with the eyes. And other people tell me. So I say, what does it look like? Does it look good? And it's like, Well, not really. And it Can you see my eyes? Yeah, I suppose And it's like in a need to go to a bathroom mirror Yeah,i I don't see them in the mirror. And I is that like crossing the streams and ghostbusters you shouldn't? Well, I think it only activates the display if it sees another person in otherwise, I think that' blank, that's something that I figured out m because like I I think in a mirror it maybe it would work if it detected me as a person. That's what it does. That's how I see it. Okay. You just spend your days somehere in the mirror, it's with the Vision Pro I really want to see what that looks like. I'm intrigued You could give it to Charlie and then just telling him her passcode as if Charlie is using it as you if you really wanted to see it. Yeah, you don't know Cholli atogriffin that would be a bad idea. If you think that that's ever going to happen, No. No, he shouldn't do that.ne thing with Martin, maybe you probably trust him a little bit more. One thing I did notice th is the dogs just don't care. They't they don't see it as like reallyally? eyes on your placeace It's probably all about to smell Yeah, they were just sitting there and looking bored sitting there on the sofa. Yeah. Yeah I can talk to my dog with the Vision Pro one And Lilaabelle and her dog. she's absolutely fine with it. She doesn't I the only person I've been around who's had on is Leander and I just It was just a weird, unsettling feeling sitting there, you know, it's like I'm talking to an astronaut or something. I just And that's to me, that's the main problem with this thing. I mean, I just can't imagine wearing it around somebody else. You know, I mean, it seems like the kind of thing that's perfect for bachelors and that's it. But what I just what if they were wearing one too Well, maybe that's fine. I don't know Uh F swse I mean, I I haveve yet to ever even see a picture of two Well that's not true. There was some picture of like a developer event and there were like eight or ten or twenty people in a room with vision pros. and it was it was I mean, I don't know. It was like that's why this thing is never going to be, you know a mainstream success because it looks like a weirdo convention.'s just It's just weird. Something, I don't know. I find it 'use I mean, I was sitting there and I was talking to Leander and he could see me and I could see him. but it's like so there was it was like, you know, like the boy in the bubble or something. it was just weird. All right, well. Time has come. I've been trying to put this off I know. It is time for us on the Cultimac podcast to lay out our predictions for Apple's WWDC twenty six keynote Like last year we were joined by Grham and Charlie. This is the second predictions game of the year. I won previously in March But u The outlook is looking good for my competitors because I went through the statistics. I've never won a WWDC predictions game In fact, Lewis has won all of them So it's looking very good for him in particular We'll see if that pattern continues. No pressure, Lewis. These are the rules. We've agreed on a list of predictions for the event for each one. we will vote yes or no, whether we think it will happen. Votes will be placed in order of who won the previous game. So this time, I will go first, Lewis second, Graham third, and Charlie fourth. Leander is absent, but I sent him the form so hopefully he'll Fill in his answers as well Or maybe maybe that's why he's not here this week. He's too afraid. One point will be awarded for each correct guess. Any disputes and judgment must be rolled on by Dave Snow responsibility he has not been informed of much less agreed to. I don't think he listens to the show. Wow. Last time it was Ed, right? Yeah sppreading the pain or the power. You know, I think Ed got a little mad with power. I consulted him on a few questions last time and I'm trying out a different judge. He's too familiar with the game now. So I'll move on Listeners can submit their own votes using a Google form, which you can find on my website or by going to dgriffinjones dot com slash survey That is Digriffidjones. com slash survey. The highest score submitted before the event begins will be honored in the next episode. Without further ado. Let's move on. I'm going to check the order again. Yes, it's okay Me, Louis, Graham, then Charlie Starting with question one Liquid glass UI significantly dialed back This is A theory that some people have or maybe liquid gllass haters that Apple's going to roll back to basically like an IOS eighteen style design h you can probably suss out that My vote on this one is a no because I'm not terribly convinced that this is going to happen. I'm voting now Okay and I always try to get real lawyerly with this stuff. This means that it will be by Default dialed back and you can't I mean because I think that they there's tons of rumors that there's going to be like a slider so you can do it on your own. But you're saying will be wide. Yeah, Let's say like the default mode is less liquid glass than before No platform All the platforms. IOS I think IOS sets the pace for all the other ones. That's their most favorite operating system So If it's significantly dialed back on IOS, but for some reason, nothing else, I think that would still count as dialing it back If they significantly dial it back anywhere, I would say Okay. so if it stays exactly the same on iPhone, but it's dialed back on Mac That would counter significantly dial back Yeah, yeah. they're significantly dialing it back somewhere Well, that makes it trickier Yeah See, these questions are a little sloppy. attention or seem to be vague and hard to judge Lucky Dave Yeah you got to think about how he would adjudicate this. Oh man. five dimensional chest It's more like five dimensional guess. Just pick one Oh my one I will say U no Same no. I'd love it if they did, but I don't see it happening. I mostly have this question in for all those conspiracy theorists. hey, I guess not to judge them. they might be listening Okay, next question, software updates explicitly called out as improving stability and performance U I know Apple is a pretty prideful company, but this has happened before where they they sort of like throwing a line, Ohh yeah, you know, we really focused on making this year's updates run a lot better. So I'm actually going to go ahead and say yes. I'm going to say no, because I don't think they would ever say that oh, it's going to be more stable. I don't think they would ever admit out loud that things are unstable. I think they'll talk about the performance, but I don't think they'll say Yeah, this is more stable than it was Yeah, I agree with No on this one. I think I think It's true with like Snow Leopard. they did kind of sort of say that But it's a very different company today and it's a very different media environment today. And so if they were to go out with that radical honesty message Today The story in all the kind of media and social media and mainstream media would be Oh, Apple acknowledges they screwed up That will be the story and so they're not they're not going to do that. Okay, and Charlie I always going say no until by this is the advantage you're going last Yeah. I was going to say no, I was going to say yes until until I heard becausecause I think, you know, maybe they maybe they're going to say something like This is our most stable and performant IS yet. I don't know Yeahah, exactly. I'm going to go and say no Okay As as you've already reitten. Thank. Thank you.'re predicting my prediction. He's got a Vision Pro. He can see the future Next, Apple reintroduces Smarter Aentic Siri. personal context. So they' we all know they're going to do something Um But you know, there are three things sort of hidden in here S smarter theory actually answers your questions and understands them. Aentic Sira, they can do things probably with the, you know shortcuts app intense API that they've been telling us to do for the last two years, and also with the personal context, which is the, you know, you know when's My M's flight landing stuff. So I'm going to vote yes for this just because I've been doing it every predictions game for the last two years. And you know, I'll eventually be right Yeah. Yeah. What do you think, Lewis? Yeah, I think they're going to at least reintroduce it. They like the personal context stuff and maybe even the agentic stuff may not arrive right off the bat, but I think they're going to ay it up So yes I would go yes on this as well. I think it kind of has to happen now. and it sounds like they have all their ducks in a row with with Gemini and so forth. So I think it has to happen And it probably I also think it probably will have to be in the beta because they can't get away with mentioning it and saying, oh, you know sometime in the next twelve months. becausecause that's just kicking the can down the road again. I think I'm not sure. If I was in an Applecs team, if it was a you know, at some point in the next twelve months m not sure I would announce it at all at this point. It's better to just keep st them until you can actually say here it is Otherwise it's just a is the boy who cried Wolf or something? I just They can't They can't announce it and it not be available again. It has to be in the developer beta next week I believe Coopertino's favorite term of art there is in the coming year whichich they they they said last year and it' like, what does that mean? What it means changes based on whatever they need it to mean Charlie, what do you think I'm going to say Yes as well. Now now they're using Google's LLM They actually have something that works I think they can do it. that is reintroduces. They definitely won't position it as being reintroduces. If I was to guess, I'd think that they will not make any acknowledgement of WWC twenty four at all. They just won't talk about it I would just Focus on the future. Apple doesn't do the past. It's like. So I don't think they will position it as reintroduces I still said yes because I think Well, they will have reintroduced it even if they don't acknowledge that. Whaty do you think they'll be like, oh, we have some exciting new features for you all? Like Oh yeah. I think' do I I could totally see Federgi getting up there and putting up a slide and says, you know Siri this time we mean it Oh ye you know, they do crack jokes like that Yeah, they sort of made a joke like that, but they wouldn't say reintroduced or But yeah, I could see they would make some funny allusion to it. yeah Speaking of Google though The next pick Apple says Google powers some new Apple intelligence features in the main keynote. Are they going to admit that they've got this u You know, partnership with Google I think they won't say it about Siri But I think they will mention Google and in a few other ways because you know, Apple intntelligence is broad Web of features, Siri is only one of them. maybe the only one that people actually want. But I think there will be at least one feature that Apple will admit includes Google in some capacity So I'm going to put myself as a yes Yeah, I think that's a yes to. I think that it'll be like oh, you can, you know, this is what they're moving toward. You can use whatever AI you want, you know, and they'll Exactly. But yeah, I also think you're probably right that they're not going to go out their way to mention that Google fixed Siri And what do you think? I go for a no with this. I think it's entirely possible in the way in which you can get Siri can hand off to Chati BT today that they add support for Claud and Gemini as well But to me, that's not the same as saying that Google is owering this. I think they will say it's Apple intntelligence And it to me, it's exactly the same as Intel inside but you know, when When Apple switched to Intel chips and people off You know, are you going to put Intel stickers on your Macs And Steve Jobs said, we prefer our stickers And I think this is thing, you know, I'm sure they're using as far as Apple is concerned Google Geminiz is just a technology provider like anything else and it has absolutely nothing to do with the user experience And if anything, I think it would be a reason for them evenven if they were planning to add hando to Gemini, like they currently have hando to Chat GBT I think they probably won't mention it next week Just because immediately the media will leap on that and make it the story that Apple leans on Google for So I think actually again, if I was the Apples C team, I would just go through this with a fine teeth comb and it's like we're not going to mention You go anywhere. You right. I think yes. I'm going I'm just going to copy Lewis because he always wins And also I think I think that the yeah, the I think Exactly what Lewouis said ex that Apple will can say something about, you know, you can choose whichever AI you want You know, it works with lots of works with this this and this or can work within the future. I think I'm actually something. It's weird In WWC twenty twenty four around then, they like Greg Jobsbak, a few executives, explicitly mentioned Google several times U and it never came to anything. They still haven't announced any Google Gemini powered features until now. you know, despite integrating ChATPT into a number of things, but And it'll be interesting for sure we're also going to predict that Pople announces that it's going be putting Google stickers in the Pone books. Yeah. Next up This is one of your suggestions, Graham X code for iPad I mean, this would be This would be great. People developers have been asking for this for years. And you know, what better time to introduce it than you know, in the age of, you know, LLM agentic coding tools I mean, imagine how awesome it would be if you could Talk to an agent on your iPad and or you're your iPhone and build and deploy it on the device P playay it to the app store. All from one system Uh, however I'm going to say no Although it would be awesome, I know that like, you know, this is Apple we're talking about so I don't think and the iPad we're talking about, Apple's Apple has a love hate relationship with their own iPad So I'm not optimistic that it's going to happen, but I mean, I could definitely see the argument that you would vote for it What do you think Lewis? U I guess I'll say no just because I heard a s have not heard a single rumor about it and also they need to sell Max. Streamom. Well, they need to sell I pads too. I'm gonna say yes on this It's partly me being hopeful, I guess. We already sort of kind of have Xcode on iPad inwift Playgrounds. You can develop apps in Swift Playgrounds on iPad today. I think if you talk to developers Aside from the cut that Apple takes on App Store revenue bigiggest single gripe that most developers have is that X code is terrible is it And this is a really great shame because you know, going back to Apple History When Macos ten came out EXCode was one of the really important things about the MacOS ten launch and Steve Jobs really prioritized these great developer tools And I think it was one of the things that made the original Cco app development environment so popular was these amazing tools that Apple gave developers. like the UI buildilder and all these different things, interface buildildup It was it was a really great development environment. But that was like, you know, twenty five years ago. and It's the same thing today, but over the decades, they've bolted stuff onto it and it's become beast and it's really hard to use and they make some improvements to it, but it's all sort of stickingast plaster patches And the impression that I get is Apple needs to really start again and Proably build a new X code based upon swwift playlaygrounds And maybe some of the stuff that's like ExCO todayay is kind of like where iTunes was at ten years ago, where it became the app that did absolutely everything And that's what Xcode is like today. And I think they they kind of I don't know if it'll be this year, but I'm saying yes because I'm trying to manifest this. I need I need brand new X code. And they can still call it X code, but probably based upon Swift playgrounds And maybe lots of the stuff which EXCo currently does be in separate tools and stuff. and just Just give developers what they want, which is really a great development environment that does the things that modern IDEs do, like as a server for other languages and all kinds of stuff. And what the new expit needs to be. And if they were building it from scratch I think why wouldn't you have it running on iPad as well? So to me, the reason I'm saying yes to iPad is not because I think iPad is very important as a development environment because I don't think it is But it's because if they do refactor X code from scratch thenen why wouldn't you make it run on iPad as well Maybe it'll be iPad first and you get a catalyst version of Xcode on the map. Oh Charlie, please don't say that Don't give them ideas. Well you mentioned iTunes and you know, everybody's like, o, we hate iTunes. untiliunes went int away and it's like Oh, please bring back iTunes. Alppum music is awful I'm going to say I'm going to say no I I'd be very interested to see how they did it because They when Apple brought Logic Pro to the iPad. They did a really good job of that It seems like it might be impossible because it's such a complex app. And they in some ways it's better than the MAac version. I prefer it H I don't think it's happen Here's another cursed idea. they bring Xcode to the iPad, but it's part of a new Apple development stududio subscription b ye And that you see that? I would say yes I really hope Cuatino is not listening to these ideas. Unfortunately I am told that we do that some apppp employees do. Okay a pro tip if you want to if you If you still want to subscribe to the old five dollars a month version of U of logic. proro for the iPad If you've got devices still on IOS eighteen You can do it there becausecause you can't get the new one on IOS eightT So'on let you do it. I did that. Next up, we have another, I think conspiracy theory, this one from Twitter A MacOS twenty seven is called Big Bear I think this So on Twitter they have like the special like icon that they use after the hashtag and people did some digging into the like tools there and they found it Big Bear was like part of one of the file names Uh so people are thinking, and I think that's like a California location as well So people are trying to put the two and two together and think that MacOos twenty seven is going to be called Big Bear. Um Despite that though,' I'm gonna put myself down as a no I mean, it is just dumb enough to be an official name for MacOS release. Yeah, I can see it happening But it's going remind way too many people of the grocery store in the Midwest Also it sounds like bug bear, which is not good. Yeah. I say no. I like the other rumor that I don't know where this came from, but some people are saying that oh they should call it Emerald Bay because It's it's a building on aho, right? Like what was Sierra and H Sierra or whatever. Yeah. So I thought that was kind of cool. And also that sounds kind of cool. Emerald Bay, MacOS Emerald Bay. A actually Ies they were just saying it wass going to be called MacOS Emerald, which That's not going to happen. It'd be Emerald Bay What do you think, Gham I love this name, but I just can't I mean, I could sort of see it happening, but it just seems quite unlikely me And Bearers also has like negative connotations at a time when they're They' switching CEOs and people might bearish about Apple, I don't know. I think know. Okay, and Charlie I'll say no because I happen to know what the actual cod nameame is. and it's going to be MacOS Tnderloin Oh yeah. Okay famous famous tourist spot of San Francisco Yeah, very touristy. Good, good, good tip there U Next up, last in the software category Vision OS gets more than five minutes of screen time I'm going to vote yes because I'm blindly optimistic. like Graham I always miss these. I can never And every time that you put one of these in there, I start going, oh, wait, how long is a typical segment I don't know Like I think this I wish this was more like will to spend more time on this than TVOS Five minutes. I don't know H. I'm going to say no because I think this one's going to I think this whole keynote is going to be all about AI. I don't think it's going to be all that you know, specific division OS Graham Well, I'm obviously going to say yes, but actually the The rationalazm to this is I went back and looked at last year's WWDC in anticipation And it was like six or seven minutes they spent on on Vision OS. and they really only introduced a handful of features. It wasn't a big update And I think they'll do something similar this year. I think they'll give us some of the things we want, but they won't give us a lot of the things we want. And I think it does take if they're going to If they're going to do a section on Vision OS I think probably needs to be at least five minutes if you look at the way these things are structured So I'm going with y Okay Sure. I't going to say no because I just you know, five minutes is a lot and who cares about the vision And that also continues workome your perfect sync with, Lewis. Oh yeah, that's that too. I'm desperately looking at the the questions on the list to see where I might can disagree with Lewis We're running out of room. ye Coming up, we have the hardware category with a whopping One question Updated Mac Mini and Mac Studio M five chips It's about time for them to come out. I'm sort of vamping because I haven't made up my mind on this yet. I think as of like Up to like a couple of weeks ago, I would be like an unambiguous yes, I think that's coming. And we're seeing like the current configurations of the Mac Mini and Mac Studio like dip out. You know, they' they're slowly disappearing. Is it even a product they sell anymore? Who knows Um Screw it This is probably why I lose WWDC every year, but you know what I'm going gonna find myself down as a yes again. They've got to. they They're running out of those computers they don't have anymore. Yeah, this is a tough one. I mean, all the rumors say as early as WWDC twenty six. The I'm going to say no because for one thing Tim Cook said in the eararnings call that, you know supply constraint, all these processors and memory and everything through July And I don't know how exciting it is to say, hey We've got a slightly faster chip in all these machines You know, if it was a new model or something. I think this would actually be the event to do it because the Mac studio, I mean, especially with like the you know, insane, high amounts of RAM and the insane processes they put in those, Th those are like, you know, developer favorite machines, especially Now in the age of agentic AI things, people want to run AI on a Mac and you know, this is their developers conference. I think it would be a good fit But The backack Menny also a super popular you know development tool, Mark Arma just bought like forty eight of them I mean I know they're popular. I just I just you know, what is there to say about it really? I mean, they've already talked up the M five chips. So we're' going to go here's the same computer with a better chip and it'll be available sometime in July once we get the supply chain stuff unkinked. Not the ultra There's not much to say about it, but also I think they've got so much to say about the platforms this year. WWDC often doesn't have hardware announcements because they just want to talk about their platforms And I think that this year Absolutely that. It will be all the platforms and how AI is affecting them and u I think they're trying to make these a bit more snappy now because they really did stop dragging on So I wouldn't be at allor surprise in the next few weeks that there's just a press release about this. I don't expect it to be part of the WWDC announcements. Okay, does this question It says updated Mac Mini and Mac studio with M F five chips Do they have tonounce it? Or can it just like show up? Oh if they just it's a deine I I guess before I before I judge the answers so before next Thursday If they dropped them, I guess that would be counted, right Look at us all about the ke keynote though Yeah, okay. I think then no at the keynote If it's if it's at the keynot, I'm going to say no, but I mean it Well, if it's maybe they come out in the same day, even I just don't think I need to mention a chip bump If it's anything that like happens on You know, even if it's just like limited to Monday, like anything that happens on Monday I think it's fair game to judge these things I'll say yes, then. Okay, there go. just to be different from Lewis. Gotta do it at some point. Just just a little questions. Yeah Okay, Yp, M Yes. Now we go to the miscellaneous category Stephven Lamay appears on screen or in voiceover. This is their new head Honcho of user interface design. Well Aland Dice featured very heavily last year about Liquid glass. Will Stephen Lemay appear there to talk about their new user interface tweaks if they have any Stevenen L May, although he's they know, the top of this division. He actually hasn't appeared in any keynotes before So I'm gonna say no My guess is no, he won't be there. What do you think, Lewis? I'm going to say yes, just because I think they probably want to introduce him, you know, they that whole Allan Die thing was such a you know, that that that was not a good week or so for Apple And, you know, they they rushed this guy out pretty prominently pretty quickly to say like, hey, look h you know, we've got somebody who's you really a veteran. he's really great and, you know, we're in good ts. So I think yeah, the I think the just I don't know in what way, but I bet he's a little bit of a little bit of u you know, exposure I get in this What do you think Graam I think no because I don't think that Cuperatino thinks there's any problem with liquid glassass at all. I just I think they acknowledge that there's some fine tuning that needs to be done But at all does not really talk about fine tuning you know, I and if they did on the Mac platform, I think in particular, there there is a need for some fine tuning And I could imagine Craig Federigi alluding to it as an aside, you know, we've done these things to make liiquid glass look even better on a Mac. I could imagine him saying that. Yeahah But the thing is, if you wheel out someone like Stephven Lemay It it has he then needs to talk for a while. You can't have him just talking for I like, Hey, I'm Steven Lamay. I tided things up. Be We're not gonna do that. I just don't think this isn't the time. And I also think it would correctly be interpreted as a Mor Culpot on Apple's part and putting all the blame on All and Die. and I do think it's one of the erroneous things about the way that Apple is covered And I'm guilty of it sometimes myself. It's almost irresistible to like pin things onto people. So Federigi did this or Turnis did that. Turnus is bearish on Vision Pro. Stepven Lamay hates liiquid glass These things are just not true because people can have complex opinions and stuff My understanding from all the stuff I've read is Stephven Lamay was very involved in Lquick gllass And actually, if you look at a lot of the liquid glass things like the the almost biological way in which they animate and stuff, that's all Stepvenen Leay And so he's all over liquid glass, you know, And so I find it funny when I listen to these I'm not going to name the podcast, but some podcasts I listen to and I listen a lot Not this one. I do listen to this one, but you't you didn't say this. Is it one that you accidentally started listening to? Alan Dy is a design ignoramus and Stehen Lamay is here to save the day I just think it's nonsense. They were all part of the same team that came up with Liquid Glass And Liquid Glass, if you follow Apple design trends, you can see it has its roots in Vision OS, it has its roots in MacOS ten, it has its roots even in like the dynamic island. And they explained all of this in WWDC last year. This is something which involves decades of design evolution at Apple And so it's not something that was a mistake and it's not something that needs to be fixed. And it's not something that some new personality needs to come in because Apple is like an aur movie and a new director comes in and everything changes. That's just not what Apple is. Apple is a company with thousands of employees and loads of people working on these things. and there is a direction. if you ever worked in a big organization You know, it's actually quite hard to make a big organization change direction I think Cuatino is not stupid, so they're aware that some people don't like liquid glass But they're also aware that you get a lot of noise in the blogger sphere and it doesn't necessarily represent what real users think I think no. I don't think he's going to him I guess because What's he going to say? Really? I mean, is they going to bring him in It's what is there going to be some big new design change which he needs to except Gowing Siri. He could he could introduce the glowing Siri and that's it It's going to be something something, you know, something like that these otherwise, you know, you don't need to bring and get another person on this And was it Gan said, you know, he ye Yeah, he has to come on for more than just just to say one thing So I don't think so. Have you noticed that Apple has been slowly getting rid of its des design heads with only three letter surnames I think there's something in that. So Lamee might be safe. I've let it. Yeah, exactly. He'll last forty percent longer than Johnny I. I think would you write that down And we'll see. Okay. Tim Cook appears on screen for more than three minutes There's a, you know, this is likely going to be his last keynote. Is he going to have a smaller role because, you know, John Turner is going to take it over or is he going to, you know appear in it more because he wants to like give like a, you know, parting words in the keynote. I haven't really settled on which way I'm going, but I'm going to say Yes, I think you will probably be a little sentimental I think overall I have like, you know, a few things to say. They might be do a whole thing about it to a small degree. What do you think, Lewis? For God's sake, it takes him thirty seconds to walk out and say, good morning. Yeah. Yeah, I'dll be on here for more than three minutes Yeah, I think looking at at his previous appearances like last year, he was on screen for more than around three minutes is tricky because he was on screen for about three minutes last year That's it. When he just tops and tails it That is is three minutes I think he is going to have his usual level of involvement this year. and I don't think he necessarily will allude to his departure or as he would position it his new role at Apple because that's not happening until the autumn. So right now he's still the CEO and I think that it would be appropriate for him to just do it like he always does it. I'm not sure that he needs to say anything. I feel like he will do something really special when he's moving into his new role, but he's not doing that yet. So I feel like it's a little bit premature. I think you'll be on screen for about three minutes. I'm sure we all see lots of turns, but we always do Anyway, But yeah, so I think you'll be on for about three minutes Maybe not so it's a bit tricky because it could be two minutes and fifty seconds, it could be three minutes and ten. I'm going to say yes because I think the The gist of this is like You know, is he making a San song or I think hes he's just going to be He's going to be on it and he's not going to reference his departure at all So do you think he'll appear in the September keynote. Be I think that's really like a fifty fifty guess whether he will at all or not I think he won't because at that point he will have handed over. But I think at the point at which You see because when they have the when they announce new iPhones in the fall That's what they'll want their focus on. They won't want their focus to be on Tim Cook So I think you will have some really nice tasteful but understated way Oh Marking has switched his new role Maybe you could call in from Jhn I' hybr Chamber He'll do like an interview with someone or there will be something to mock the occasion and you know, his new role. I don't think and he'll stress it's not goodbye. It's a new role. I'm afraid that they'll turn it into like one of the like opening bits, like the little movie that they do at the beginning either for this event or the next one. And I'm just cringing in advance of that. There will be a tear in his mind when he' when he's at the rounding up at the end when he say, This is why we do what we do and it will be his eyes will be a bit glossy. I think that's what you'll get. much as I'd like him to go out on a high end you know, like prank call or coffee shop in the Bay Area liive would you be tenderloin Oh Der have cop ye. You coee shop and' serving instant coffee U I think he's going to be Like Gram says around three minutes, I'm going to less. I think he's going to top and tail it and I think Turnis is going to be on If we were doing like the full set of twenty questions, I would have also had a question on whether how much John Turnis appears as well, becausecause you like you said, this isn't a hardware event. He doesn't really have a reason to be here other than being the upcoming CEO. although I guess I voted on this being a hardware event provide a talk. That makes me think that maybe he will they will announce the M five Mac Mi and Mac Studio in the note just just to give him turn us talk about because it it would be commented on if he's not in it at all So that's a really good point. There wouldn't be a reason to do it That's the best argument I've heard for it yet What did they vote? I voted? Yes, didn't they Okay, so we will obviously judge these. again, if you're listening and you'd like to be a part of this madness, you can go to Dgriffinjones d. com slash survey. There's a Google formmer, you can submit your votes. If you'd like to put a message on the show, you know something you'd like to plug if you were to win, you know there's an optional question for that as well Thank you to Graham and Charlie for joining us this week. They'll be back next week as well as we talk about the announcements. You can find them on the Apple Core podcast, leave a five star review in Apple podcast. list if you got through this far, this is like a super sized episode. I've got a lot of editing to do. Lewis has to really get onto the newsletter, so I really should stop talking, but I'm also going to say that if you'd like to send in questions or feedback, you can text us call at Mac podcast at Cloud dot com See you all later. Goodbye. Bye Bye S ye, good see you guys.