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Have you been enjoying my podcast and now want even more history? Sign up history and watch the world's best history documentaries on subjects like How William Conquered England What it was like to live in the Georgian era And you can even hear the voice of Richard III We got hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week And there's always something more to discover Sign up to join us in historic locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit history. com slash subscribe One of the most elite fighting forces ever assembed The special Air service, the SAS. These were not ordinary soldiers highighly trained. mavericks. They were deployed where the risks were greatest Margins for error were razor thin. And the story at the heart of today's episode the most extraordinary mission of World War twoI We are joined by the best selling historian, author Damen Lewis to talk about his book, The Great Train Raid, which uncovers a forgotten wartime mission The hijacking Of a pirate train. Yes, a pirate train which the SAS would use to launch a surprise raid on Natalian concentration Today, we're going to get into exactly what happened that day and how only the SAS could have pulled it off Enjoy Amy and great to have be back on the podcast. hiding Brilliant So good feed again. I mean, I don't know how you keep finding these stories. The SAS in the wartime SAS is the gift that keeps on giving, isn't it? It's just extraordinary what this unit gets up to. What do you think it was about war at this time? and indeed in the twentieth century into our own day that made this unit made it so effective. And you know we founded Special Forces soldiering in World War two and these men were charged to do the unthinkable. In fact, they were charged to think the unthinkable in terms of ways to attack the enemy and then to put that into operation because if you can think of an unthinkable way to attack the enemy by default, the enemy will never have concedived for it. That's the beauty of it So these were maverick, lateral thinkers, piratical individuals, and that's exactly what they proceed to do. It's one of the reasons why they were so unpopular because they were doing things in a completely different way. Now what does that mean? It means that they legacy that that that model upon which all special forces now are founded. Bear in mind when the U.S wanted Dlta force which is their nearest equivalent to the SAS. What did they do? They got their two guys and put them through SAS selection in the Breck and Beacons to learn how to do it Bucky Burris, who's a good friend of mine is one of the first people to have done it So they then went back to America and founded Delta Force. This is So we invented the model that everyone now uses. and How does that cascade down into the present day? Well, I was with some fairly senior figures from Ukraine's special forces recently. and what Ukraine is doing in terms of spepecial Forces operations is absolutely brilliant. They are pushing the envelope to the degree almost that the SS did in World War II, look, Operation Spiders's we you know, and I spoke to the guys about it said Spiders's Web, that's the mission where they sent in drones are bo trucks Thousands of kilometers inside Russia to then release those drones and attack Russian airfields. It's exactly what Padatdy Maine and David Sterling were doing in the North African desert. The only difference is They were driving jeeps through the desert thousands of kilometers to attack these airfields with their Jeep mounted machine guns and Ukrainians drove trucks full of drones And that's one of many, many missions the Ukrainians have done which are just stunning in terms of their innovation and their vision. And when I was talking to this chap you know, from Ukraine' special forces, you know Two things he said. I said, how are you managing to do? And he said, Well, one This is an existential battle with're fighting for our survival So that means The m, you know, necessity of the m is the mother of all invvention, but he said to Don't think we don't look at what happened in World War I takeake examples from that and adapt them for the present day. That's amazing. Fascinating stuff. Let's let's go back to World War two now. You've mentioned David Serling,'ve mentioned Patdy Maine. M people have listen to this podcast have heard you from previous episodes. Let's just quickly rehearse. The SAS emerges although as you've shown it's very kind of murky beginnings and there's different traditions and strains But roughly speaking, the SAS, as we understand, emerges in North Africa There's a couple of visionaries. justust very quickly, give us the genesis and then let's get on some of the raids that you want to highlight in your latest works Yeahes, so very quickly Special Air Service. june nineteen forty Churchill aftermath of Dunkirk calls for you know, thousands of commandos to be raided, a new way of waging warfare and cascading down from that in the North African desert in the summer of nineteen forty one David Sterling, tall Guards offfficer, in a commando trained puts forward this idea for a raiding force in the North Africa desert, really, really, really simple idea just beautiful in its simplicity. You know, North Africa, the war' being waged along the coastal strip. that's just where everybody fights because no one believes you can navigate or survive in the Sahara desert. So David Sterling says, well why don't we learearn how to navigate and survive in the Savara desesert, then we can go thousands of kilometers behind enemy lines and attack the enemy in a way that they would never conceive as being possible is the genesis of the idea of the SAS. So the sixty two old originals that he recruited included Oviously himself, then there was Juck Lewis who was one of the visionary founders of SA selection But then also Blair Paddy Maine. the Northern Irishman who was brought in initially as their PT physical training specialist because he was a Irish and and British and Irish Lions, Rugby Innational also the University of Ireland heavyweight booxing champion, you know just a stunning sportsman. So obviously he was boughtght in as the PT oper officer, but interestingly Main was also made by Sterling, the discipline offfficer of the SAS He was the man charged to keep discipline, and Patdty may have a very good idea of how you keep discipline. he said to the guys, Listen You do anything wrong? You come and tell me There'll be no paperwork, there'll be no stain on your record. All you have to do is stand as many rounds as you can stand with me in the boxing ring at that training base in North Africa. And we will call it quits. but he said, because he was an Irishman with that brilliant Irish sense of hum. He said, But look If you can come up with an excuse that makes me laugh, I might let you off. I'll just you a quick example So This guy goes out drinking, comes back, he's late and he goes before Paddy Maine and Paddy Maine says, you know what's your excuses? but it's like this. He says I was coming back well in time stop for a cigarette to light cigarette had to turn around blowing a hooie in the desert is often does. So I turned around to light the cigarette, forgot to turn back around again walk for two hours in the wrong direction because you know Paddy all the desert looks the same. That's why I'm late. And because he made Paddy Maine laugh, he was let off. So yeah, that's a brief nutshell of the kinding founding ethos of the SAS. It was e ggalitarian It was it was it was quality above ranks. your background, your Education, your career before the war, none of that mattered. All that mattered was whether you were willing to take the fight to the Nazi enemy in these Borderline suicidal missions across the the North African desert and that you could think completely outside of the box and find means to attack the enemy that the enemy never even conceived of. I would be very happy to have a disciplinary attached to my permanent record rather than going toe toe with Paddy Maine. in the booxing ring. I'd be like, stick I can take the career you know, the career here. Okay. so we've got North Africa many striking successes too against airfields When it comes to invading southern Europe, the Italian campaign in nineteen forty three How are the SAS, How is it envised that the SAS will work? Yes, it' a great question. So By now We're talking someone line in forty three days. The Link found of the SS has been captured. So he's in captivity. Patdy Maine has been forced to take over command. whyy do I say force because it's something he never sought it was thrust upon him and many of you believed that he would be an utter failure that he would not be able to survive in the corridors of power and actually he proved them all wrong because before the war Paddy Mane was also a trained solicitor, so he had a brilliant legal brain in his head He didn't suffer fools gladly, but he knew how to operate on that level And because they are deeply unpopular, you know, the Mavericks, they were accused of being in official reports. Raiders of the Thug variety That's how they were referred to. So becausecause they are unpopular, they' used one SAS are used in a way which is absolutely completely incompatible with they should be used. what happened was they were sent in to serve at the tip of the spear to storm the cliff tops in Sicily and take the big shore guns that would blow the Allied invasion fleet out of the water. That's a kind of commanday role, not deep behind the lines sabotage operations, which is what the SS performed for. However At the same time, David Sttern's brother Bill Sttering in my view, even more of a visionary than David Sterling actually, had trained and recruited and forformed two SAS, the second SAS regiment in Algeria in the North African desert And those guys were ready to go in and build Sterning, brilliant, brilliant mind He said this is what we're going to do Were going gonna draw threeree hundred two to four man patrols behind enemy lines, laden down with explosives, and they are going to paralyze the German rail, road and communication networks because That number of men will be able to completely freeze up their system and it will have a massive impact upon winning the war U Unfortunately reallyally, really deep to unfortunately againgain, because Mion command didn't understand the SS or appreciate how they should be used he was only permitted to send one or two of those patrols into theatater. So what happened instead? T assist. was sent into Toronto In september nineteen forty three, the Ky Italian port to act in exactly the same role as Pady Mane's W SAS enact the stormtroopers to lead the assault and bring the Allies ashore whichich as you say, no out a job they could do, but it doesn't play to their strengths. percent. it's This is not a task for which All of that brilliant SS selection and training and lateral thinking is necessary. You know, this is a stormtrooper task. It's a pathfinder task. It's not a typical spepecial forces task, though not at all. But Damen, I didn't know about this. You very excitingly have identified a raid that you feel does show the SAS working in at their best In their role, rus of demolition experts, almost and paralyzing enemy logistics. We should remember, of course, the old dictum that enthusiasts talk about tactics, experts talk about logistics. So paralyzing enemy logistics is vital. that's stuff, that's oil, that's weapons, that's supplies, it's boots and food moving around, getting to the battlefront. And you've identified a raid that takes place actually in northern Italy later in nineteen forty three Tell me about that, tellell me about Speedwell Operation Speedwell was one of the few missions that Bill Sterling, you know green lit And it was along the vision that he he had for the whole of Italy. I mean, Speedwld was supposed to be proof of concept. It was supposed to be Bill Sterling's chance to prove that these kind of operations were. eight men were sent in under the command of a the Wonderful, brilliant A man he was loved by his men, adored by his men. So Lieutenant Hugh Pinkney Fantastic individ. justust give you one quick anecdote because this is you pink me through and through. So the training in North Africa and in Algeria. And a load of guards officers are recruited into the SS and Pucker guards officers they arrive and You know, the sense the dress code of the SS was pretty damn fluid. You could pretty much wear what you wanted, what you felt comfortable. And we should say, Damian that the guards for those listening abroad, these are the people that in they're guarding Buckingham Palace. they're on royal duties marching about and they're all spit and polish, right So they turn up and they're rather agghast at the sense of dress of particularly the SAS officers. so they put a kind of dictum out saying, you know, from now on offffers will dress forormally for dinner You know, in the middle of a training camp in North Africa. And they know that Hugh Pinkney is a real maverick Um and an absolute champion of his men. And so one of them comes to Hu Pickney and says, lookook You need to understand you need to wear ties to dinner So Hugh Pickne says to his men Java At the offfficers's Mest tonight so you get a good view Late? and he proceeds to turn up at the officer's mess, lastast for dinner, walks in wearing On a tie and nothing else There's absolute silence in the m And then a few seconds later the first laughter starts. everyveryone burs out laughing and it's kind of like he pulls it off. He sits through the hole of the dinner naked apart from a tie But seriously for a moment, you ped me why he was such an amazing commander. He'd injured his back and recently. just before this in a parachute operation This is the measure of the man, and it said to you know, himself and the few people he confided in canon't let Bill Sterling th or any of those in command because if they know, they will ground me and I won't be able to deploy into Italy. He tells one of his men, Hora Stokes, the serergeant on the patrol The only way I can actually operate and deploy is if you spray this it's a painkiller spray onto his back where he's injured it So Horace Stoes' serergeant has got the the job of keeping him operational by killing the paine, but he's also keeping the secret that the commanding officer of the patrol is injured. So when they fly in on this mission Operation Speedwell, They're deploying Dan eight hundred kilometers north of Rome They are a long way from home And there in mind During the briefing You know, it ends and one of them says, well Okay, ye, we get it. We're going into to blow up enemy trains and tunnels, that's all fine, but how do we get back again And they're tellble, that's up to you So they' been dropped eight hundred kilometers north of Rome with no radio. They've got no way of making coms with headquarters and no plans to get them out again. They've just got to find a way or make one. Anyway, the point is They fly in to deploy it at night P pink me their commander. is the first out of the aircraft and as he jumps, no one would imagine that he's as badly injured as he is because he leaps out the aircraft as if there is everything to playe for And you know, that's the start of this mission on which They are extremely successful. You know Pinkney himself. tragically is never found after the jump The men can't locate him can't find him much that they search and call his name And obviously Horace Stopes is is, you know, convinced that he's had an accident upon landing because of injured back, you know he's died or he's completely incapacitate, but they can't they can't keep searching for him because that they've been seen during the parachute drop and the enemy already hunting for them So They have to leave him behind and they split into two groups and they set up on their operation and Sokes and his two fellows carry out this Amazing sabotage operation deep in a train tunnel and blow up. What is a German armoured train? And having blown it up, the Germans obviously confounded by what's happened and in the chaos and confusion opened fire on themselves and then then Stokes and his two fellows stop there. Epic escape and evasion. it's a thousand it's more than a thousand miles to try to get back to Allied lines. That is their mission Rady extraort And they and they make they do make it back. I mean you say it's Andre Clumbon off of Rome but the Allies aren't even in Rome. I mean, they're right down at the bottom Italy, right? So they are and they manage to hike all the way back twowo of them managed to make it back to oured lines over land somehow incredibly Horis Stokes Um As he parachutes down, very wind is bordlined. operational conditions, they probably shouldn't parachut it at all, but typical of the SS, they went anyway. anyyway Agust of wind blows folkes onto the roof of a farmstone. he lands on the roof parachute gets caught up in the chimney,'s left hanging dangling into space and he cuts his parachute lines and drops and injures his groin in the process And by the time he's approaching Rome Spokes realizes that he's so ill from his injury that you can't go on Well certainly he can't accept expect his two fellows to continue traveling with him because he's holding back too much. So he says to them, You go on without me and leave me and very reluctantly they do. So Stokes is then left in a Italian balmstead. two hundred kilometers north of Rome Knowing he's dying. He knows he's dying, very, very sick In fact he had said this, set this in here So he decides There's any one option, I must steal the bicycle. cycle to rain Find my way into the Vatican persuade them I am who I am because he'd heard The Vatican was running this secret escape line for Allied POWs, which they were And so that's exactly what he does. I mean, I don't know how he did it because you know, injured with septhsemia with a with a but a very, very, very painful groing in agony cycling two hundred miles through Italy on a stolen bicycle, and then somehow navigating his way through Rome, getting to the Vatican, persuading his way into the Vatican, then persuading them he was a bona fide prettyit. Anyway, that They don't know whether to believe him in his entirety, but what they do know is that he's on Deaths Store And so there's a There's an escaped partisan who happens to be a surgeon and he operates on stokes any He castrates him, he takes off all of his testicles because he's so badly injured. That saves Stopkes' life You can imagine at that stage Stokes might have thought, yeah, I've kind of done enough for the wall, I G to take it No, what he does, once he's recovered is he starts to train the Italian partisans, the Italian resistance using all the skills he has. Then he starts to fight alongside them and do sabotage operations Finally, he's captured by the enemy and goes before the Gestapo and faces this horrendous torture And he tells himself one thing. He says, look If I tell the truth, if they break me and I'm forced to tell the truth, I am dead because they knew at this stage Um Hitler wasn't very happy about commommando and SAS operations, He didn't really like them very thought they were rather not the done thing and so had authors an order that all captured commandos and parachutes and SAS should be kept alive only for long enough tort them and then murdder. They've got a good idea this is what's happening So Stinks sticks to his cover story no matter what they do to his cover story is he's just a regular soldier who was a prison of war in an Italian camp and escaped the camp. That's his cover story and he sticks to it no matter what they do to him. And so Eventually They believe him And so they put him on a train and they send him north to Germany to a POW camp. And that is just the start of a series of the most incredible makes by Horace Stokes which end up with him In nineteen forty five, Breaking out of the prison of war campies into two other individuals, stealing a German staff car. writing on the side of the staff car, dawubing in paint, escaped Allied prisoners of war and driving that staff car to the American lines because the Americans were approaching and finally getting back to Allied lines. However many times I talked to you over the years, you keep finding people who every time are like you can't possibly top this. and here you are, Damiian back on with these Extraordinary stories Damiian we're going to check in with what's going on the south of Italy, but first we're going gonna cut to an ad. Don't go everyone, more of Damiian coming up after this Damian, take me back, it's the autumn, it's the fall of nineteen forty three. How are the SAS being used in the amphibious landings in southern Italy? So the SAS of twoSS is saident ashore forefront of the Toronto Landings Operation slapstick. So they're They're there to seize this incredibly important Italian port of Toronto, which they do and all the you know all the airborne and other forces come ashore. Then they're acting as pathfinders pushing routes out from Toronto and going up against the German parachute regiment which are in defense there. And then And of course none these are not typical SS operations and then something happens which is really rather surprising they're in, they've actually seized Chiatona railway station just to the west of Toronto. they've made that their base. And then out of No man's land comes this individual And he says, my name is Zelko and I am an escaped Yugoslav partisan. And they're thinking, okay, where have you escaped from? why are youre here? And says, Well, I've escaped from pisticia concentration campps. And I've come because they're about to ship all the inmates north to Nazi Germany. Now several things fall out of that. Of course, at this stage in the war, september nineteen forty three, No one in Allied command knew what a concentration camp was. We had no idea. So obviously Oswald Carry Elwis, the commander of the two SAS units on the ground has no idea what a concentration camp is. So first of all, it's like, is this guy telling the truth? because these horrors are you know, inconceivable. And then when they're convinced that he's telling the truth, that they will Why become He ss just because they're about to ship everyone north. loadhing them aboard a train to Nazi Germany, and if they get them to Nazi Germany, that is a death sentence. And in that concentration camp are Mazi Jews. But there are also French, Yugoslav and Polish Partisans and resistance fighters, there are former French foreign leegionaires and there are Italian priests and other intellectuals who've resisted Mussulin's fascist rule Night This is all true Bill Sterling was recruiting into the SS in Algeria a few months back He thought There's all these French foreign Legionaires sat around with nothing to do because of course, the French Foreign Lgionaires You know, in theory in North Africa were now part of the Vicci regime, the regime of Vicy France which wasn't fighting anymore. So Bill Stterning says have bought as many French foreign engineers recruited the SAS as possible So he finds this chat called Raymond Carud. Lieutenant Raym Carud, who is the most Inredible figure almost I've ever come across in terms of ations Right. Well, that's a pretty that's pretty that's a pretty remarkable bar that he's crossed there because you've come across I mean this guy so he really brief character sketch. he's got a Film style mother who's American An arms dealer, father who's French Yeah. bought up half in America, half in France age of eighteen volunteers for the French Foreign Legion. But if you're French you can'toin the French Foreign Legion in theory, as you know. So y has to Belgium passport to then pretend he's Belgium to get into the foreign Lgion Fights in Norway with the Foreign Legion in nineteen forty in the defence of Norway. wins the the quadagur Um comes back to France, France falls deserts the Legion because he doesn't want to join Vity French forces Goes to Marseilles, the port City meets Mary Jane Gold, the beautiful, glittering, incredibly wealthy American socialite in Marseilles. She's helping run an escape line for Jews out of Europe and funding it He has got gangster contact underground gangster contacts by Noan Maraill. He says, I'll use my gangster network to help you. They fall in love. She nicknames him look aroad because of his background. They rescue together two thousand Jews and then the network gets penetrated and Mary Denold is fine because she's an American neutral country. She can just go back to the states, but Caralud is obviously not. So he has to He manages this unbelievable escape gets back to gets to the UK gets the UK volunteers for hazardous operations, gets recruited into the spepecial operations executive. whereerein he characterized as a lone wolf operator then gets parachuted back into France by the Special Operations exxecutive as an assassin carries out several assassination operations, eventually gets hunted down by the Gestapo, escapes again, but by now they know his real name So at that stage, he's recruited into Bill Sterling's SAS under a false name because you can't serve in SOA anymore. You can't serve as an SOE agent if the enemy know your identity. So Raymond Carud in North Africa in the in Bill Sterling's SES training camp. has gone around all the French Foreign Legion bases recruiting people. Of course you're not allowed toave French Foreign Legion, it's called desertion, isn't You face horrendous things if you desert the French Foreign Legion They're deserting in their droves because they're hungry for action. Bam Ciaona their base the two SS base in southern Italy, where the Yugoslav concentration camp internally turns up A significant part of Carry Elmis's two SS force is made up of Rul and his French foreign Leionees, former French Foreign Lgiones, It's known as the French Foreign Union SAS squadron, that's what they were known as. So So Carry Elis and corlled dance They have reasons to want to intervene firstirst off This is a real SAS mission This is one hundred and twenty kilometers behind Eem lines. That's where the concentration camp is. So it's got sayays stamp all over it. Secondly, Cerald knows that there are former French Foreign legionaires in that camp, There's a personal reason to go. Thirdly, Carry Elwis is the son of a champagne merchant and he spent half his life in France. He's a massive francophone. He's got a reason to go to the camp. So They start to cook up a mission with Zelko, the escape Yugisl partartisan. The problem is that because their mission has been so rushed, Operation sllapstick They've got like just a handful of Jeeps and they've had to you know, scavenge, you know a nineteen sixteen Renault school bus and various other things to transport their men around. They do not have the transport to get there. And even if they had the transport to get to the camp they bring hundredundreds of concentration camp victims back again Obviously that's just impossible. So they obviously set upon the idea of stealing or hijacking a train. So Fi Eternal railway station, getting the train steaming it all the way through enemy territory, getting into the camp. Oviously the camp guards are expecting a train to turn up because they're expecting a train to ship all the concentration camp inmates to Nazi Germany. So you take the camp by complete surprise because that's what they're expecting. And then you load all the concentration camp Inneys aboard the train and you steam them back again, that is the plan But there's one problem I didn't know before writing the book how hard it is to drive a steam trarain. It's really difficult It's not like an electric pusher button You know, you have to put shovel the coal in get the boiler up to tem to get the steam pressure up And not too much coal. too much coal. you've got a big problem as well. It's got to be just the right amount. Yeah.. So this is a real art Within the ranks of two SS on the ground they had no one who could drive a train Harry Alis gets in his jeep An thinks a hot The two hundred sixty one Field Park company, it's an engineering airborne company nearby. They have someone who drives over the head meets Colonel Hankah no major Hannekah, sorry commander of the two S six onenefield Park Cany says, Yes, I need a train driver. Do you have any? I think we've got two So they parade the men and the sergeant major says anyone who can drive a train take a few steps forward. and two individuals do and Elkin is volunteered on the spot by Major Henkah to join Carry Al' mission. So Poor old Spper Elkin jumps on the Jeep. Zooms off with Car Elbis back to Chherito Railway station, having been volunteered for Lord knows what. He doesn't have a clue what mission he's let himself in for. And when there As the sheep disappears suddly thinks to himself What have I done I've l. What are I men into the distance with a man I've never met before. I just likek the cut of his jib, so therefore decided to run with it. Clearly they're off on a piradical mission of an intensely suicidal nature Elkins probably never invked me to come back. What am I going to tell his family? So Haneah thinks I need to pray I need to pray for his soul so he goes to find the church and then he realizes that it's a Catholic church and he's a Potestant. so he's hovering on the doorway thinking, can I really go and pray in a Catholic church? The Padre of the unit cas to say what's wrong, says it pray can I you know, it's a Catholic church. And the padre says They will welcome you justust like any church anywhere, sir. They were praying in these churches here before we were in the UK. So Hannukah goes in, says his prayers, feels a bit better, and comes out again and meanwhile Cor old Seppper Elkin is at Cheonal Rilway station tryrying to get the Italian train that they have expropriated up to steam and ship shaaped. to steam Pisticy concentration camp to carry out the mission. Now Damian, how much knowledge did High Command have of this particular operation? because it seems like something they might not want to oain? Dan All I can say is that at the end of the mission There was no publicity and not a single medal was given out. so I suspect that nobody knew part from those involved. But look, you know That's how they operated in North Africa, all through the desert campaign The SS is operated. pretty much as They saw fit. I mean, they were sent into the desert with a brief which was to raid the enemy' supply lines and communications, you know by whatever means. And actually at one stage, they did try to hijack a train for a mission in the North African desert. They tried to hijack a train, steam it through enemy lines to get to an amma dump to blow it up for various reasons it didn't happen. So it wasn't as Trains were on the radar as a means to wage war. they were what trains were not on the radar to do. And this is an important point. They were not on their radar execute humanitarian missions. because this mission achieves no military objective whatsoever You don't seize critical territory, you don't take out a critical enemy position, you don't even take out any real significant numbers of enemy troops. purely mission carried out on humanitarian grounds And there's something that I don't, I'll never be able to get to the bottom of it, I'm sure. but in that camp in the pistig Pisticity cononcentration camp was held Basically the Italian royal family, so Prince U Filippo. I can't pronounce his full name. It goes on and on and on and on This is the individual who had that he had become known during the years of the war as the U as the kind of underground mayor of Rome. So he had used his massive fortune fund and organise all the escape lines out of Rome that were being run. And indeed at one stage, you know, Prince Philippo owned and the family still does a thousand room palace in Rome which is a massive, massive art collection with the most wonderful artwork you can possibly imagine. at one stage, Hitler had demanded access to it. to probably scope it out so they could steal the whole lot. And Prince Fhilippa had refused him access as a day. You're not coming in. So This individual who had eventually been amassked by Mussolin' forces was held in Pistiti concentration camps Carry Olvis was from a very strong Catholic family Bill Sterling and David Sterling were from a very strong Catholic family. They'd all gone to amper fourth the strong Catholic boarding school and had schooled there together. So I'm wondering if there was some kind of behind the scenes connection from the Vatican to you know the Catholic figures in charge of the SS that kind of got this mission up and running as well. I imagine theatre commommander going absolutely. crazy when he found out this was going on. Anyway, let's get back to that platform with with our man Elkins he's trying to get the train up and running. Do does what happens next? Culed crazy French Foreign Leionire with this French Foreign Lgion score and they load up and they're the guard force on the train. There's also Alistter McGregor, Lieutenant Alista McGregor with eight men of his patrol, he's he becomes a standout figure in the SAS throughout the war Brilliant Scotish warri So that's the force on the train, but Care Elwis has realized that the train through tooto sorry to Pisticy concentration camp, you have to pass through Metaponto Junction which is a set of points. And if the points aren't thrown in the wrong direction, the train won't go the right way. So he He split his force into two. There's a train bound force Second part of the mission is he will lead A handful of Jeeps and a few dozen men cross enemy lines, through enemy territory at night to get to Metap Puton Junction to seize it to set the points the right way. so the train will steam through and get to Pistichi and then to hold the junction for all the time it takes for the train steam back again so it can get back to allid lines. So that there's a two prong operation underway and they have to do the whole thing under cover of darkness. Why is that? Because Allied air power. owns the skies over Italy Obviously any train seen steaming through enemy territory will be presumed by Allied pilots to be an enemy train and they will take it out. So they risk being attacked by their own forces unless they can achieve the mission from Snd down to sunrise the next morning So that's exactly what they proceed to do. they steam the train into enemy territory, and the beauty of this mission is this then You're a German soldier and you're sat in your trench overlooking allied positions at this time and you see a train steaming through the valley below you A you going to think, oh yeah that train must be carrying a load of SAS. or youre going to think, well, that train's obviously one of ours because it's steaming through our territory. You're clearly never going to suspect it's anything other than one of your own. So the whole idea of that force aboard the train is that they are hiding in plain sight They're not sat on the roof with their guns you know, being overtly martial, they are hiding in plain sight inside the train so that everybody who sees it will presume this is a train carrying German or Italian forces. Well, as you said at the beginning, they're doing the unthinkable. They're doing the unthinkable and they carry on doing that. So what happens next? So train steams all the way through. you know they have no No one suspects or uncovers who they are. They get there, they assault the camp, they kill or capture the guards. they start loading the concentration camp victims aboard the train. One of the first they put aboard the train, they captured the die hard fascist commandant of Pisticity cononcentration camp Ura Super in his in his wonderful goldra braid covered colonel's uniform, he's one of the first to aboard the train And there's they can fit one hundred and eighty of the most severely ill and wounded aboard the train And the rest they say Going to the hills hide out for as long as it takes for our forces to get here because we're not that far away So that's what they do. And then before leaving, Raymond Kural decides there's two jobs left to do. The first is there's a store with a safe and in the safe is all the money that the camp commander used pay as guards. So they rob the safe of hundreds of thousands of Italian Lira because they They figure they deserve a party after such an operation. Then they go into the officers's mess And they remove one hundred and eighty seven bottles of brandy and load those aboard the train as well, and then they proceed to steam it all the way back to Allied lines. And the mission is a complete and utter runaway success as no one could ever imagine. That train gets back to Chonaton railway station before sun upp. In fact, it's going like the clappers and it's going so fast that Spper El can fails to stop it in time and it crashes into the buffers but at least they've all got back safely. Yeah, I'll bet. I bet Saper Ekin was a lot keener to get home than he was about slowing the train down to a safer arrival speed He must have been extremely pleased. Now were there any shots fired in this operation Was any resistance at all? I mean, obviously assaulting the camp, you know, turn into firefight, but the great thing about the camp assault is that Zelko, the Yugslav partisan who's alerted from the camp in the first place has got word back into the camp that they're coming. And so it's not just an SAS sort from the outside. By the way, the SS are heavily outnbered. I mean something like ten to one outnbered They're attacking at night by complete surprise. So They attack by complete surprise, but also the camp inmates rise up and some of them have managed to wrestle weapons off the camp guard. So it's a two stage operation in terms of the battle of Tape the Cervation camp. Damian and I'm gonna stop you right there. Don't go everyone. We're going to take another ad break. moreore Damian and the SAS coming up after this. So Damian, when they got back to friendly lines, they had a train full of people, who did they discover that they'd managed to rescue? Yes,'s a great question. So one of those aboard the train obviously was, you know this inccredible Italian printince Prince Filippo Doria Pamphy Landi who M And it was known throughout Italy as the kind of underground mayor of Rome who had organized all these escape lines and funded them, an extremely wealthy guy He would be appointed by the Allies in due course as the first official mayor of Rome. So a really significant figure but also somethingomet that's just so brilliant about the whole operation when they get back to Chitatona Railway station. Bear in mind, remember I said there's lots of You know, resistance fighters and partisans in that camp anyy number of them volunteer on the spot to join the SAS because they've seen the way these guys operate and they think boy, we want some of this. This is, you know, we want to be with these. This is the kind of outfit we want a soldier in. So several of them are recruited on the spot to join the SAS and some of those individuals soldier with the SAS throughout Italy and into Europe and into Germany itself. and some of them settle in the UK after the war and their families have been raised in the UK. Asolutely brilliant And yet you think that the you think the fact that High commommand did not make any noise about this at all. No one was decorated, mentioned dispatchion. I think, you think that suggests that it was all It was excut It was conceived and executed really without asking anyone's permission or telling anybody else. That's just remarkable, isn't it? It was an inconvenient truth, Dan. I mean, lots of reasons to keep it quiet. The first was, it's a concentration camp you know, what are the Allies doing about the concentration camps? Well, nothing You know, Italy's now on our side. they've signed the armistice of Casabile. So you know, they are now the good guys, supposedly. We don't want the good guys having concentration camps And you know We're going to come across more of these things. What are we going do and get to the next ones? You know, for all those reasons, it just was an inconvenient truth. but it was also an inconvenient truth because The mission was carried out by this unit who pretty much did it just off their own back There's not a single decoration given. The only only decoration that There's an attempt to give after the raid. It's not the it's not by the SS. It's via the two hundred sixty one Field Park compomany They put forward Saper Elkin rightly C course they were for a military cross. and I understand he ended up getting a mention in dispatcher. So even he wasn't, you know properly rewarded for is incredible. die hard heroism, but as for the rest of them Nothing at all, no publicity, nothing ever said about it, never mentioned in the press and no decorations. I mean it's inconceivable that you can carry out an operation of that daring and scope and magnitude and heroism and moral courage They liberated a concentration camp and rescued everybody they could bring back and yet there's not a single Damien We all know that you have access to all sorts of sources and archives that we can only dream of, but how did you come across this story? It must have been a really difficult one to choose out hundred percent. So I first came across a mention of it in of cooka Gonal B Main going through his Warchest in Northern Ireland. I didn't believe it. There onene paragraph in a report and I thought, No, that can't be true. come on. I mean, if that was true, we'd know about it. surely, something like that. So then begins the process of digging. and I dug and I dug and I dug. and Just one kind of example of how Srendipitously, I mean almost like fate this story came about Wh actually writing it? That was thousands of words into writing it and I just thought, you know This lacks that real soldier's beat, that real essence and atmosphere of somebody on the ground And I'd been approached about three years ago by a lady called Joe Hussy. and she said, My grandad was in two SAS in the war He wrote his account of his war years We don't know if any of it's true Um Would you like to read it So I broke off the writing I contacted I said, canan I come and have a look? You know, but I'm, you know, I'm having a break. I just you know, fancy having a read. So I drove up to Bornemouth where they live. And I met Jo and her mum, Diane So there was this lovely scene in the kitchen with coffee and tea and lemon drizzle cake and piles of archive and photo albums of this thick manuscript. And I said to Debbie, the daughter, I don't even know your father's name. What was he called? You said his name was George Arnold Don't worry, no one's ever heard of him. He in none of the books I can't find anything about him published anymore. I don't even know what in his manuscript is true has on the back of my neck went up I said I'm eighty thousand words into writing the story of your father and his patrol in Italy said I'll be able to tell you everything in that book which is true or not true because I've done all the research in the Q archives, in the French archives, but also in the American archives because your father ends up deploying again into behind the lines in Italy to rescue on POW operations, and he does so in conjunction with the OSS, the Office of Strategic Services the American equivalent of Special Operations Executive Churchill's Ministry of Unanomity Welfare. I have all that material. I'll send it all to you tonight. And she said something like, you know, there's even a bit in the book where they hijack a train and go to a concentration camp And I said It is entirely true. And you know That was that was an incredibly emotional day You know, she was pretty much in tears because you imagine it. You've lived all your life with this amazing dad doesn't really talk about the warall though. when he does he' only joking such the common refrain. won't talk about the serious stuff. And then he passes away and you find He's written a manuscript about his war years, obviously for the family And you read it and you think leave them And you research it and there's nothing ever written anywhere else. And then suddenly from out of the blue, this crazy author turns up and says, Well, I'm writing his story And I'll send you all the files Damian Lewis, I would call you lucky, but I've known you long enough to know that these things keep happening to you. So it's not luck. it's what being a brilliant researcher and historian is all about and we're very grateful for you coming on the p I' very grateful for you writing these stories. I don't need to ask, but I'm sure you've got more in the pipeline The launch of my new books coming up in like It's Mondayday, Thursday, okay? She's going to be there with her husband Okay Dbbie Hussy with her husband Al McGregor, so the commander of the patrol, is his son, Hamish is going to be there. They've never met before, right And there's going to be half a dozen other family members all turning up for the launch and they're all going to meet each other and be able to exchange stories. Those kind of moments are really special. That's what really makes it you know, fantastic experience you know, putting together these kind of stories because we can't do it anymore down with World War Io veterans. There are none left from the SAS. We have so very many few left from you any units from World War two. So now we're reliant upon These kind of things happening peopleople You know, going up into their attics and dragging down the war chest and finding something with their permission, obviously, but make sure you record that conversation because I'm sure there'll be little things that trigger trigger memories and trigger anecdotes that could prove very, very exciting. Ieed Dami Lewis, the absolute legend. Thank you very much coming on this show. Tell everyone what the new book is called? Yeahes, so the new book's called SAS Great Escapes Five and Al McGregor and George Arnold's escape is one of the stories Operation Speedwell with Pinkney and George Arnold There's and other stories in the book. so yeah, it's just a cracking read of these incredible missions deep behind enemy lines and how they escape after them. Well, thanks so much and I look forward talking to you next time, Damian, for more of this kind of story. brilliant. So good beat again. Well, folks, I think we're going to leave it there for today, but that was Cpletely extraordinary. What a tale of daring do carried out by an elite unit operating at the very edge of what seemed possible, but frankly, well over the edge That forgotten SS mission reminds us just how unconventional And I think also how much of the story of World War two still lies hidden in the shadows of history. My thanks to Damien Lewis for bringing this remarkable raid to life. You can learn more about the raid by buying his book The Great Train Raid or hear all about other incredible stories of SAS Daringo in his latest book SAS Great escapes five which came out earlyer this month