Legacy of the Boleyn Line

Have you been enjoying my podcast and now want even more history? Sign up history and watch the world's best history documentaries on subjects like How William Conquered England What it was like to live in the Georgian era And you can even hear the voice of Richard III We got hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week And there's always something more to discover Sign up to join us in historic locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit history. com slash subscribe Hi folks, Welcome Dan Snow's History hit. It's that Belinga A childance at home is a place of pilgrimage The site of her execution receives flowers every year on the anniversary of her death. Her fans tattoo their bodies with a design of her creation. Blind. Uncontrollable passion for Anne Bolelin drove a king to upend the politics and the religion of Western Europe And it seems that even after five hundred years Many of us And it's not just Anne Boleyn Her sister was a lover of the king Her children possibly royal bastards Their forebears also are an intriguing story of social and economic advancement in the late Middle Ages Proof that merit and luck, takeake you from the village Palace And for all those reasons, that is why the House of Berlin has come to symbolize a story, a tudor story of ambition and talent and sex and intrigue and hubris. Anne Bleyn, quQeen of England, fifteen thirty three to thirty six She helped to transform the Ridig a settlement in Britain and beyond. She paid for it with her life An story did not begin at the Royal Court. It becgan generations earlier with a hatmaker in Norfolk bigig dreams He was called Jeffrey Bolein And he was a sort of artisanal worker. He turned to merchant and he was a merchant. He did very well. He became Lord Mayor of London And he bequeathed his fortune to his heirs And among those heirs was his great grandson, Thomas Boleyn He was a courtier He mastered the dangerous dance of Tudor politics, And he helped his family rise through that talent and his usefulness to his sovereign And he built up a web of powerful alliances. And eventually he discovered that his daughters were his most potent Today we're going to talk all about that folks. We're talk about the rise and fall of the House of Berlin, how they got to the very apex of political power And how in the glittering but deadly well of Henry VI' court That ambition That soaring arc of success to that ruin We've got a fabulous guest to talk us through this wonderful story and help us navigate through the perilous world of the Tudor court. We've got Philppa Gregory. She is a celebrated novelist in this story Best known for her vivid portraits of women in history, particularly those of the Tudor and Pl tangent eras, she has written the iconic books like The Other Bowlin Girl and The White Queen But she's not just an astonishingly good novelist. She has got a PhD in eighteenth century literature So she knows what she's talking about Her novels have been adapted for film and TV And she's also written acclaimed works of nonfiction. so we're very lucky to have her on. Her latest book, Bollin Traitor Tells the gripping story of one particular character and all those themes of ambition and betrayal and survival in Henry VI's court She chooses the vessel, Jane Bolen figure that we'll hearing about in today' episode too You listen Danstow's history, settle in as we trace the rise and fall of the House of Berlin Philippa, thank you so much come back on the podcast. It's been far too long. Good to see. Dan iss lovely to see you. How are you Very good indeed, and I'm excited about the Bolin family, but first of off, I'd like to know How could we sure about their existence and their goings on pre They're illustrious when they produced a Queen of England briefly Well, theyre novo So they're great ones for recording their various rises So they start off in Norfolk as tenant farmers, they're not very grand at all in the about the thirteen hundreds. And what we know from them there is that they endour a few churches and they start to rise, they start to make money. ming. Don't tell me ens the Saudi Arabia of wool in the medieval period. That's all we seem to do. We're just pumping out wool. It is all we do. It is all we do and it's probably it's the only thing that we're really, really specialist at Because of the rain, Loads of graass and you know, a very, very unintelligent domesticated animal So now, what can I say? it just suits us temperamentally Yeah, we finally find an animal that will do what we ask it. Well, and also we're not asking much of it. Basically once it's bred, all you're doing is cutting its coat off when it's too hot So it does it good. It's a symbiotic relationship Well that's good. I never thought about that is. And so the Bolin family, they're farmers and they're just good at it, I suppose. They buy more and more land like the Grand Spencers of Princess Dan of Fame, the same sort of thing going on. You just slowly over the generations, well managed farms, you get bigger and wealthier They get wealthier and wealthier. and the first one we really notice gets himself knighted and becomes lawbear of London, which is really the Nouveauue rate to rise that you are in the company of merchants who recognize wealth and who respect wealth and then they promote you to a civic position. And the position of being Lord Mayor of London is, of course very grand because London is, as it were, separate. political and civic. almost principality. So you get to hobnob with the court and that's really your big rise. You're aristocrat of trade, I suppose. So you're not sort of a member of the old martial aristocracy and you haven't written up through the church, but you can do it through sort of trade and money in London. o? Yes, particularly London. I would think any big city you could rise in civic tones, but London is really because you're right next door to Westminster and you have lots of hobnobbings with the King and you have a lot of influence in parliament because you're c sight it fundamentally. And then what the Bollins do is two generations, say marry well. So they marry into the old Norman families. Yes, because they're penniless They need the cash. Well, I wouldn't say pennilous. I mean, they own half of England, but what they really don't mind is new money and this authority coming in. And anyway, it's only their daughters. It's not their sons are giving away. So basically the Bolins then marry, I mean, ultimately the Howards, but also into the Ormonds Irish aristocracy So that's how you get when you get to Thomas Boleyn and Boleyin's father, you get this chap who's got a very wealthy background on his own account and he's got a very posh wife. and a very posh mother And so he's got these aristocratic connections, but he's not the oldest son of an ancient noble house. He's not got that sort of ground. But what he has got is the confidence of a man who earned his own money and has married well And of course he then moves into the diplomatic service, which is the absolutely classic sideways step. So you become important at court. You're basically doing a lot of admin And you're basically using a lot of your business skills as a diplomat, but you're not visibly in trade in the same way Okay, so I should just quickly mentioned the Howard family, you mentioned that they are the dukes of Norfolk. I mean they are the apex predator of the sixteenth century world So as you say, very, very posh relations diplomacy is that the sort of thing that men of independent means would offer their services to the king and say, lookook, I can go and represent you in Antwerp and the courts of Europe, I speak languag, I'm cultured refined represent you well And what does that mean? I mean, are they kind of negotiating trade deals? Like what sort of stuff are diplomats doing in this period Well, they're doing trade deals, but also they're going to the courts and representing the king at the courts. So if there's an alliance in the offering They're the ones who go and say, shhall we do a royal visit? What do you want? What's your attitude to the Pope or Spain? So basically you've got a few key countries which you have to either be formally in alliance with or formally enemies with. So Boland goes to the French court quite often. Obviously, his French is very good Obviously he has connections because of his trade background and also because of his now aristocratic connections. So he's in a very good position to go there J just be super charming and put the point that the English want. So you'd have things like exchange of prisoners if there'd been all joint policy on parotates, if you had difficulty actually with trade negotiations, taxes and tariffs, he'd be doing stuff like that. And then ultimately, when it really, really matters, he's organizing things like the Kings' visit to Calais Okay, so important, but we're not talking a senior senior offfficer of state and If hadn't been for his daughter, we probably probably wouldn't have heard of him particularly. I mean scholars like you' have done but I wouldn't have heard ble brag. I think we would have heard of him as one of the court functionaries who do things. I mean, what if Anne Boyn't been Queen? wouldould Thomas Cromwell have risen? But say Thomas Cromwell had risen. He would have been reporting to Thomas Cromwell about overseas trade and overseas responsibilities. It remain minor but significant. Berin, as you've said, Marriesine the Howard family Again, it's on both sides. as we talked about, he gets her kind of aristocratic pedigree She marries a refined gentleman with lots of money. So it sort of works on both sides. Absolutely Absolutely. and also she brings with her property So they have by then Blickling Hall, she brings they buy Hever Castle later. It's a reasonable match it happens. We're very familiar with it throughout the eighteenth and the nineteenth centuries when you see trade getting aristocratic ambitions and values from marriage and where you see aristocrats topping up their wealth through trade. But there isn't that snobbery about it, I think in this century in the way that there is later on. So there's a real acceptance that this makes complete sense for the two of them and they seem to be quite happily married. no great scandal and they have three children George first and then Anne or Mary subsequently. We're not even now entirely convinced which girl comes first. And in my opinion, it's an historical fact which would be nice to know But it's not a historical fact that would make any difference to the story he's got his wife, he's got a family. he's climbing. He is. And of course, the white hot hope is George. who is the eldest son of this combination of aristocracy and wealth, whose father is a diplomat at court, who is young and handsome and fit and makes sure that he buddies up with the young Henry VIII and jous with him and you know, is one of these so called minions, basically lads about allt togetherher And George is going to undoubtedly, as he gets older and more senior, take over a lot of the diplomatic roles, But he'll do it with a bit more heft behind him because his father was a diplomat before him and he's personal friends with the King of England So there's this clear trajectory of the Berlins, which they expect to really finalize and complete and confirm with George So it's quite a big thing to get your son in the way of the king. That's everything. Yeah. I can imagine that going on at the moment with young Prince George in some school in Windsor. There s various families hurling their children in his way. Absolutely. and' trying to figure out where they'll go to university to send their girls there Yes. Okay. so Thomas does well to get in that sort of inner circle, right? So Henry VII goes, Oh, yes, any nice young lads around court feel free to play with my son Henry. That's how it works. Yes, absolutely. And of course because Henry himself, Henry VII himself comes to the throne so very young, he's not very much guided by older wiser heads. He's just picking the people who you know joust well and who he admires and who he likes. So some of his friends are very unsuitable. But George is not a particularly unsuitable young man and is married quite young in his twenties to a maid of honour to Catherine of Aragon. so she's at court as well. Her father's lands run alongside George's. They get her for a very, very, very cheap dowry because her father's not very astute. and he marries Jane Parker, daughter of Lord Morley So it's not that Henry VI's eyes caught one Bowlin girl or the other one. he was actually friends with George first. They were Jousting buddies Absolutely. And Mary Berlein is at court as Maid in waiting to Catherine of Aragonan and then she's married to Henry's friend anotherother friend of Henry's at court. quite young also, while Anne is in France And George's closeness to Henry VII is highlighted by the fact that he's omoted he's become a knnight of the Bath and he takes part in the coronation festivities of young Henry VI. Very close buddy I mean, as you say, it's a very glamorous court. It's a very young court. There's no sign at this point of Catherine of Aragon's dowdiness and a hair shirt and a general sorrow. They're newly married, newly crowned everything to hope for and Catherine in particular, this is the end of years of poverty and hardship in England as the unwanted widow of the previous heir Now suddenly, she's Queen of England, Henry this they call him the handsomest prrince in Christendom. If you didn't know what was going to happen, you would think it was Camelotte. It's just lovely. It's just absolutely full of very, very glamorous young people having ridiculously good time using a lot of the metaphors of chivalry because they're very keen on arthur. So you've got lots of jousting and I would say general you chivalry nonsense, people falling in love with people and writing them poetry and people falling out of love and writing poetry about it. And it's very, very attractive So it's a glittering court life of young good looking folks doing sport for having fun bit of politics, bit of socialising, all marrying each other. Great fun. Why is Anne in France? Her father very cleverly get through a place with Margaret of Savoy at the French Ct as a preparation for her to be a lady in waiting or wife of somebody pretty important in the English court or even probably the French court. He sent her away quite young. We don't know exactly how young, but quite young. And she learns French, and she's brought up in this very, very cultured, very educated P reform of religion court in France and she comes home England And literally wows everybody the minute she walks in because France is famously stylish and cultured and fashionable and she walks in and everybody goes like, Who's this? Who's this new girl And in fifteen twenty two is that bizarre moment where the men attack a castle and there's a sort of pageant. They attack some sort of castle and the women defend the castle. Yeah, we've got a record of it, but they're doing this prettyty well every month, certainly every feast day This is the mask, this is the great tradition of the mask. You have a lot of scenery, you have a lot of moving big scenery parts. The castle, the Chateauv in this story is a wheeled in enormous structure with the ladies inside the castle defending the virtues and they are attacked by the king's men and they are defended by the king's Cisters who throw sueitets and little toys and little presents and the men finally capture the castle. Everyone's disguised. you've got this big, big heavy emphasis upon disguises and everyone pretends not to know it's Henry until un masking time when he takes his mask off and everybody goes like, good heavens, who is this handsome stranger? It is the king It's just playing with what they have anyway, which is privilege and wealth and youth and beauty. It's just a celebration of that which they do, I must say over and over and over I mean, no wo he becomes a Megalanarchal narcissist. I mean, I would. I mean, it's astonishing if that's a day to day activity. it's ridiculous. Okay, so Sister Mary becomes mistress around the time of this Chateauaire pageant. She becomes the mistress of Henry VIII. We know her part, we know she's wearing a green gown She's a young married woman Henry takes her as his mistress and nobody complains about it very much at all In fact, nobody complains about it at all. She has a baby who' called Katherine which is a sort of bit of a backhed compliment, you would think to Catherine of Aragon MQueen, who she was the lady in waiting to. Then she has another baby Henry named obviously for the King and We don't know to this day whether he is of the King's fathering But he's never claimed by the king who doesn't then know that he's not going to get loads more babies And he's accepted by her husband Harry. And so just when she's in actually in bed in confinement and takes the eye of the King fundamentally seduces him from her sister, who is at that moment in bed giving birth to his son So it's a bit brutal in terms of sibling rivalry. We don't know how much it's an agreement among all the Howards that there should always be a Howard girl. in the king's eye because that is the route to power and influence and popularity at court But certainly by then, George becomes less the golden boy in the hope of the Bolins and more and more the assistant and supporter and protector and promoter of first one sister and then another. So from George's point of view, it's a bit of a Miserable. Downsizing From their point of view, it doesn't really matter. as long as in this court, which is entirely focused upon one man a young man and the whims of a young man, all that matters is that he thinks that your family is the best thing since for Jos Thomas the dad He's promoted at this time, is? I mean, he's now a very, very, very serious role. He has made it, hasn't he He's at the apex of the Royal courourt. Is that connected to the fact his daughters are so popular? Well, always these kids so popular at court. I mean,'s obviously a talented guy as well Does Henry promote him? Yeah, he's a talented guy, but you see that he gets grants of lands firstly when Mary starts sleeping with Henry and then he gets a big grant of lands when She has her baby then there's another grant of lands and titles when She has her second baby. And then when Anne takes his eye, you then have basically Anne being part of policy making and the first sortort of thing she puts in place is the suggestion that the king should be able to get a divorce from Catherine Aragan. She is absolutely determined that she's not going to be his mistress as Anne was, she sets her heart with extraordinary ambition on being his wife You listen to Dan Snow's History Thank give up, Mstricia. There's more coming Summer is here and that means travel season is in full swing, road trips, last minute flights, quick weekend getaways, or anything else that feels like an escape And sure, travel can be a little chaotic plans change, things go off track That's what makes it memorable When you're out there making the most of it, it help to have somewhere reliable waiting for you That's why best Western hotels and resorts is such a solid option. It's cozy, convenient, and exactly what you need after a full day of exploring, wandering or just figuring it out as you go This summer get one thousand bonus points and a chance to win two hundred fifty thousand bonus points. So wherever you're headed, make your stay part of the journey and make it count with this limited time offer Life's a trip. Make the most of it at bestwesttern. com No additional purchase necessary for Seeps, See bonus Point tenin season Sweeps Rules for details and visit Bestwestern. com for complete terms and conditions What started the Civil War? What ended the conflict in Vietnam? Who was Paul Revere And did the Vikings ever reach America Don Wildm And on American History hit, my expert guests and I are journeying across the nation and through the years to uncover the stories that have made America We'll visit the battlefields and debate floors where the nation was formed, reet the characters who have altered it with their touch, and count the votes that have changed the direction of our laws and leadership Find American History Hit twice a week every week, wherever you get your podcasts. American History Hit, a podcast from History Hit So the wider family doing very well because Henry becomes actually infatuated with Anne He really does. There's a period of time when everybody gets the sweat And actually Mary Bolin's husband dies in the sweat and Anne has it and is desperately ill and Henry doesn't see her because he's completely then and thereafter. paranoid about his health. he's terrified about being sick, but he sends her a stream of letters Pomising eternal love and desesperate for her health,y seen are his own position It's very, very clear that this is a man As I think probably narcissists do who has just become obsessed with winning The unwinnable thing, the thing that he thinks will make his life complete and he sets himself T that and it costs him an extraordinary amount in terms of England's peace in terms of his relationship to all the other monarchs, in terms of his relationship to the pope in terms of his relationship to his own religion and to God, It's a very, very, very costly that Henry feels and he just seems to go through it with a ruthlessness, which is later bodes no good to anybody Do you think Thomas Boleyn and Dad did he ever dream or stes start to dream that Anne might get the big prize might actually become quQueen? I mean, that's unimaginable. He would have been perfectly happy for her to remain or to her time as a mistress, would he? I don't think he would have wanted her to be a mistress if she'd been a single woman because that's much worse for her reputation. I think the complacency about Mary being a mistress is because she's a married woman up time. in a sense her honour is in her husband's keeping. It's not Bolinonor anymore. But when he thought that she was going to be queen, I would imagine was a good deal after she thought it was possible. So probably the first person who she shared the ambition with would be George who I think was closest to both of them and was acting as go between for a lot of this material. I think The hopes were very high. Of course, in between all of this that we haven't even mentioned is Anne gets into disgrace trying to marry Henry Percy So she's not good enough for a Duke in the eyes of Thomas Wolsey or her father or her uncle Thomas Howard. So there's a real sense that that's too high for her to aim. But lo and behold, she comes back to court after a period of exile. Everybody is just very, very taken with her. She seduces the king, not sexually, but certainly emotionally. and The next thing, the girl who wasn't good enough to be Duchess of Northumberland, is heading to be Queen of England I mean, I think for a long time, nobody thinks she'll do it And I think for a long time, everybody thinks that she is bound to give in that she'll dress Hary best deal for it and then sex with Henry and You would think that that happens. she gets a very, very, very good title and she gets a huge grant of land And I think at the same time, she gets a promise of marriage and then they have sex at some time when they visited the King of France of Calais probablyro on the way home and then they're married in secret Once they are married, the grip of the Bolin family at court gets even firmer Thomas' father is ennobled, made Earl of Wiltschhire And presumably accompanying that is well, wealth, but also further responsibilities. Yes, he becomes very, very major in the King's cououncil, but they all do. So when there's next mission to France, George Berlein does it. George Boleyin becomes very, very significant in terms of international diplomacy and very, very significant in terms of stillill going between the king and the quQeen in terms of advice, what becomes The main object is to finalize and established the legality of the marriage which takes place initially in secret and then there's after that there's a coronation. but the legality of the marriage and the absolute of the succession because Anne is certain that she's going to have a boy and part of the promises she gave to the king, undoubtedly is that she will give him a boy which Catherine Aragon has failed Something like eleven, twelve times to do Catherine Aragon only ever has one child, one surviving child Princess Mary So next you have this massive legal changes which are the Act of supremacy and the A of succession, which is one establishes Henry as leader of the Church of England, now reformed. So it's not the Pope anymore, it's Henry. And the other establishes the right of Anne's children to be the legal heirs We're obviously covering a vast amount of ground here continuing to focus on the sort of family, the house of Bollin Pumably success inspires jealousy before Anne's fall. There must be lots of whispers at court about this family of upstarts who are doing quite well and insinuating themselves and cting themselves into all sorts of important positions. Well, they undermine themselves as well in that there's only three Siblings and Georg and Mary. Mary, once she's out of the king's bed and interest, she literally seems to do all she can just to get out of court altogether And she marries someone that nobody's ever heard of very much And she goes and lives with him in the country. She falls out with Anne I believe because when she comes to court and can see that she's pregnant, they cannot make a good marriage with her because she's had the cleverness to marry somebody relatively unimportant. straight away. So she's of no use to the Bollins in terms of power broaking a woman as a pawn and she's no use to the Bolins in terms of being attractive to the king because they don't want him diverted So she retires to the country to Essex actually and doesn't significantly come back as a power player at all. So now there's just two of them two of them and George's wife, Jane, Jane Bulln And so The three of them are responsible for maintaining the attraction and the power of the queen. and that is against a constant stream of new ladies in waiting and new maids in waiting at court who have learned from E. One of the ways to get enormous riches for your family and enormous success and possibly the top job is to seduce Henry, even though he's married to somebody else. Nobody has ever seenen divorce as a sort of marital choice before. quQueens have been put aside. mostostly for being infertile or for the marriage being annulled in some way or another, for religious grounds. Nobody hass ever just said I want a new wife and I think I'll have one before. So once the floodgates were opened, this is a possibility. everyverybody goes like, well off course most notably the seymours are in that queue, as are As it turns out, other Howard girls, there are the Seltons who obviously are at court and who have affairs with Henry. So there's this sort of backlog of young women turning up at court to try the chances really. So the Bolins have that as a personal problem, but as a political problem, Cardinal Wolsey fails to deliver religious agreement on the divorce and is ruined as a result of it and then dies. And Thomas Cromwell is the person who says he can deliver the extraordinarily huge religious financial, legal and political changes necessary to guarantee the succession of Anne's children and herself as quQueen Did Cromwell like the Berlins or was it just convenient because he knew that Henry was temporarily obsessed with both of them? I don't think Cromwell would allow his likings or dislikings to come into it really. I think he's a very astute political player. I think when the Bolins have clearly got all the bases covered, then he works with them. He saw what happened to Thomas Wolsey when he failed to work with them I think Thomas Cromo is very, very, very and instrumental in the trial of George and Anne which leads to their death. So he doesn't like them in the sense that any liking stands in the way of the most expedient thing for Chromo Well, let's come ont to that trial because Anne fails to have a healthy son. She has a daughter, Elizabeth, who people may be familiar with. Princess Elizabeth who will become Elizabeth I. She miscarries a boy. She's pregnant for a third time, she gets pregnant a fair a few times. and a third time she miscarries a boy in fifteen thirty six. and It does appear at this point Henry starts to believe that well he falls out of love and believes that in fact he was bewitched by Anne and this is God's punishment on him Yeah, it's not as unreasonable to them as it is to us in that there is a belief that miscarriage and any form of defect at birth or stillbirth is a consequence of the woman being either illegally sexual or a witch So the mere fact of to Miscarriages. one of which is reported as being malformed as they would say then The mere fact of that cast a huge shadow over Anne's reputation. It suggests either that she's undertaking forbidden sexual practices or that she's engaging in witchcraft the stillbirth is the proof of the other. So That's really, really, really problematic before you start. And Anne's enemies, of course who are everyveryone who is Roman Catholic, so that's a good half of the country. everyveryone who supports Queen Catherine. so that's a whole chunk of people. Everyone who supports her daughter, Lady Mary, who Anne has been bullying mercilessly. and everyone who supports other people like Jane Seymour So by being the tallest poppy by far, they have got a real set of enemies lined up against them. and at the first whisper of trouble there is enormous trouggble. and Cromwell goes about collecting evidence against An I think other people are giving evidence too because it's so nonsensical, as good a lawyer as Cromwell would not have bothered with it. But basically there's this kind of explosion of titittlele tattle and gossip and She's seen doing this and she's seen doing that. Somebody says that she keeps her page smeaten in a cupboard and that somebody fetches him for her to have sex with him when she asks for marmalate. I mean, it's just Impossible becausecause the mood against her is so strong, the ludicrous nature of the charges are not enough to prevent the lords including her uncle, including Jane Bolen's father All the lords of the land sitting on her trial and finding her guilty and sentencing her I think initially it'd be burned as a witch subsequently commuted to be executed So it's an extraordinary show trial and George Boleyn's trial comes thereafter and he's found guilty too courts This is the Dan Snows history hit. The best is yet to come Stake with us What started the Civil War? What ended the conflict in Vietnam? Who was Paul Revere? And did the Vikings ever reach America Don Wildm And on American History hit, my expert guests and I are journeying across the nation and through the years to uncover the stories that have made America. We'll visit the battlefields and debate floors where the nation was formed, meet the characters who have altered it with their touch, and count the votes that have changed the direction of our laws and leadership Find American History Het twice a week every week, wherever you get your podcasts American History Had, a podcast from History Had So Anne and George', brother and sister both found guilty. He is found guilty of having sex with his sister. Yes What's Thomas Bolin doing at this time? The Earl of Wiltshire? I think he's excused from sitting on his daughter's trael at her uncle's there Certainly the family turns out there. He retires rather promptly, rather quietly to Heaver Castle with his wife, Elizabeth and keeps his head down And the survivor, the extraordinary survivor from this story is the heroine of my new novel, Bolin Tritor Wh is Jane, Jane Parker, married to George Wh is said by some people to have given evidence against him. Her name isn't on the witness record. I don't believe she actually gave sworn evidence. but she certainly, I think reported to Thomas Cromwell of the atmosphere and the activities of the Queen's rooms. So she's on, in a sense, Cromwell's side of history at this point. and I'm sure of that because when the Bollins Dash back he the castle and stay very quiet actually until their deaths Jane is promoted to be Lady Jane Seymour's Lady in waiting, Queen Jane Seymour's Lady in waiting There's a special law passed in Parliament to improve her very bad dowry. so she ends up owning Blickling Hall and being immensely independently wealthy And she is at Jane Seymours sied when she gives birth. She's there at the Christening of the baby prince and she's there at Joane Semour's funeral. Of all the Bolins, the one that we pay the least attention to is the one who literally rises like a phoenix out of these ashes and goes on Brilliant career You say she reported to Cromwell on the sort of the vibe of Anne Boyn's inner circle The suggestion that Anne Bleyn was practicing witchcraft and having sex with her brother and all this kind of stuff probably unlikely. But there was enough. fun sexy, naughty flirtatiousness to just give Cromwell something to go on I mean, I think what we're saying is we noted earlier this sort of chivalric call it the historical termfld roll, generally dancing about and disguising and dressing up and wearing masks and kissing in corners and swearing eternal love and then fancing somebody the next day. That's going on all the time. I suggest in the novel Bolin Traitor, that this gets more and more heated becausecause the urgency to tell the king that Anne is the sexiest woman in the palace becomes more and more serious as he starts looking at other women and as she starts becoming very not sexy figure of a woman who cannot carry a baby oppos to being the very sexy figure of a woman who has not yet been seduced So I think the intensity of the compliments and the of the sex play Gs More and more strong And in turn, that can be used very easily by Cromwell to say, this is a bit of behaviour and adulterous promises and Queen Anne's rooms are not being managed as a quQueen's room should be kept and I think that may be the case. and one of the problems it solves is why on the one hand, you have people saying that she has a genuine interest in religion She has a genuinely devout attitude to the reformed religion that she helps bring into England and that she initially instructs her ladies in waing and her maids to behave very, very respectably and very devoutly And then at the end of it, you have this court dissolving in charges of the most bizarre sexual behaviour and adultery. And I think it's because the game of chivalry gets toxic Yes, she eventually gets caught up in this Game of Thrones. Well, it is literally it's a Game of Thrones. So she goes from being Jane Seymour's Lady in Waiting and right hand woman, which is a pretty abrupt and extraordinary transition, if you think about it. And then she works for Anne of Cleves, but I think all the way through she is working Thomas Cromwell and reporting to him what's going on in the Queen's rooms. And we see that she's paid very, very highly by somebody for doing something. And I think it's Thomas Cromwell for spying on the Queens. When Thomas Cromwell wants rid of Anne of Cleves because she has failed to please Henry, it is Lady Rochford, she is by then, but it's Jane Bolen whose signature is second on the witness evidence that says that the king is not consummating his marriage and that Anne of Cleves doesn't know what she's supposed to do. and is unfit fundamentally therefore to be quQeen of England. She's Anne of Cleve's chief advisor as her chief lady in waiting. I think she probably advised her to Take the money and go and be glad that she'd still got a head on And Anne of Cleves does just that and retires as it happens to Heaver Castle to other places around England, which lots of people will know because there's lots of Annena of Cleves pubs everywhere. And then Jane just moved smoothly on. to be lady in waiting at the court of her cousin Catherine Howard And it's there that it all starts to go veryer wrong again Thomas Cromwell is executed on the day of Catherine Howard's wedding day. coincidence, which means nothing to Henry VII, who is fed up with him by then, but which really signals, I think, the end of Jane having an advisor who knows the in and out of courts? and from her point of view, someone who knows what the king is thinking and tells her before anything happens In addition to that, she's in the almost impossible job of trying to organize a sixteen year old, very spoilt, very ill educated sixteen year old girl as Queen of England in a court which is now established as one of flirtation and adultery and Catherine Howard either already abused and groomed Yeah. prematurely sexual experienced, I think probably already abused and groomed Falls in love, I think for the first and probably last time in her life with Thomas Gulpepper Another friend of Henry's, handsome young friend of Henry's. Of course, the friends are getting younger as the king is getting older, the friends stay at a dazzlingly handsome mid twenties As the king gets older and older, he's now old enough to be Catherine's grandfather But he mares her anyway and he calls her his roose and he thinks she's going to give him a son. And I think Jane, without advice abbsolutely unable to control the steam train passion of Catherine for Thomas Culpepper tries to be a UNna and stay with them in their meetings, but in fact is therefore just literally implicated in their adulterous affair So when the king finds out about it, which is unlucky because they might have got away with it But when the king finds out about it, ultimately executes Thomas Culad Pa Someone else named as her lover M Mko Pepper's friend who's done absolutely nothing and Catherine Howard and Most wrongly Jane Bolin That is not the end of the Berlin family. Let's just quickly check in Anne Boyn's mum died shortly after her execution, having lost her son and daughter so quickly But old Thomas Bndale of Wiltshire, he dies as well But The House of Bolin oddly I suppose it does continue with Queen Elizabeth I first of course is of the House of Bolein. Absolutely continues with Queen Elizabeth I, who keeps a miniature of her mother Anne Boleyn by her throughout her life. and because extraordinary high reputation in the regard of subsequent Protestant historians means a complete revaluation of Anne Boleyn which means a complete revaluation of the Boleyin family, which really rises Anne Boleyn to this idea of virtuous reformer between wrongly done to death by terrible people like Thomas Cromwell and indeed her sister in law Jane, who then gets the blame for this execution, which she probably had very little to do with So yes, you end up with, as we believe, a virgin quQeen and that is the end of line of the Boleyn family. Of course, Mary Boleyn survives. Well, that's it. I'm intrigued because of Mary Boleyn surviving. and these children you've told me about are likely to be Henry's And they go on and have very illustrious marriages and really do remain at the pinnacle of British aristolatic society for the rest of time. Absolutely. Yeah they're all over. So the Henry, the little baby Henry, grows to be Henry Crey, who is Elizabeth I first acknowledged cousin and highly regarded advisor But that's a bit strange, cousin on both sides, interesterestingly, mother and father's side Or half other. O half Oh my go, you're right brother and cousin. Yes. interestnteresting. okay. He never makes any claim to being and heir to the throne. he never makes any claim to being A tudor