Legacy of the Roman Empire

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Digital precision, host read authenticity, and performance data that proves it worked Don't fight for attention. buuy it with ACast. Learn more by visiting Acast dot com slash advertise For centuries, the unshakable Titans Ancient Its territory spanning three continents The soldiers gazed out on the frontier. from massive defensive fortifications Its engineers, built cities, moved rivers and turned the desert. Rads stitched its provinces together from the sands of the Sahara to the great rivers of the east to the misty crags beneath Hadrian's. It legions conquered ain the edges of the known world It emperors claimed dominion of the millions of human beings late fifth century at EC believed itself inmort was gone Cross much of Western Europe and North Afric L emperor deposed The immperial court dissolved, the map redrawn New kingdoms now claimed Rome's lands as their own. So what on E earth happened It's one of the greatest questions of all folks. and right now here, we on Dance Snows History are going to answer that question. Today we are delving into the internal and the external forces that unstitched the Western Roman Empire while acknowledging that the eastern half of the Empire endured and evolved into something new and long lasting We explore how regional loyalties replaced imperial unity We're going to look at Rome's relationship with frrontier peoples, how it broke down, how it became corrupted How the Empire's vast size really was one of the roots of its vulnerability and how changes on the distant Asian stepes not for the last time in history Plunge Europe into an epoch of fire and violence This isn't just a story about colaps What the story about? change, about one world ending and another beginning, about transformation as much as finality This is the last our episode on our little series about the Roman Empire. O the last two weeks, we've heard about how the emmpire rose, what it was like at its height And there are links to those episodes in the show notes, so be sure to go and check those out before listening to this final episode all about the Empire's demise. I'm so happy to say that I'm join by Peter Heather. Pfessor of Medval History at Kingss Coege Lond expert in the later Roman Empire and its successor state. He's the author of the Fall of the Roman Empire, theew History of Rome and the Barbarians. He's the co author you'll have heard him on this podcast before. he's written book called Why Empires Fall Rome America and the Future of the West. I used to read his books when I was a kid, when I was a student. It is a great honor to have him on the podcast. Always meet your heroes folks. They're brilliant He really is the guy to tell this story. Enjoy it. Peter, thank you so much for coming on this podcast. It's an absolute pleasure. We've set ourselves a great task. You've spent your entire career stewing and why do people think this is the great question of history? Why does Rome fall and does it fall? and it just seems that people are obsessed with it. They are. I think it's got a lot to do with Gibbon It got a lot to do with the American founding fathers, understanding themselves as Rome And it's got a lot to do with surviving material. So there's a lot of information that you can play with And there's that great sort of list that someone' made various scholars have come up with how many different theories? Oh, it's well over a hundred. Well over one hundred. Yes, I can't It was one hundred and twenty in counting. Okay think. Peter, I'm very upset if we don't get every sing of these theories into the next hour. Right, first of though, let's should we have a look at the Roman Empire? So let's start in the northwest of Europe, the outlying section England and Wales, Britain Britannia, their R province. What are we talking about the height of the emmpire? The early second century, Trajan or Hadrian, those emperors that follow? Yeah, about one fifty. Well, no, actually probably more like two hundred is the absolute physical maximum. So we because they add a bit more in Mesopotamia How much of Holland? I don't want to get this wrong. How much Holland? Western Holland. W Okay, Wesn Hlland, right? Yeah. Down through northern Italy, obbviously Rome itself. Bavaria, Bavriia and Bavaria. Okay a bit of Bavaria there. Okaykay. interestnteresting. North Africa. Yes. So striple along the coast. How far in land is Rome? Well, the power stretches as far as the decent Aicultur land does up into the Atlas mountains.. I mean, it's a very ill defined frontier because it's basically about protecting agricultural production. Right. Okay. So there wass no formed enemy there. Come to Egypt. and of course, it's equivalent down the Nile because there's good folks all go down the Nile there That's right. Not Sudan, but not Sudan. Well into Iraq. What one Iraq. Anatool, Turkey The bit that I'm interested in What's going on in Crimea, even parts of Russia and modern Ukraine? The empire is stretching up the Western coast of the Black Sea. Okay. But not as far as Crimea. There are independent cities there which have very close relationships with the emmpire And there are lots of ambassadors there. So almost client kings sort of Almost. Greece, of course. And then is it the Danube front? mean I know Prasian conquers beyond the Danube the line of the Danube is the place to start, but then you do have to add Transylvania beyond. Okay at this point. So there's a big arc up into the Carpathian system Is that empire Geographically, it looks different to China, doesn't it? It looks different to sort of the Aztec empire. It's based around the Mediterranean. Is it unwieldy geographically? or does this actually make it quite coherent? Is it easy to move troops and supplies around? Well, you've got two things going on. First of all is the biggest state that Western Eurasia has ever seen. It's much bigger than Charmagne's emmpire. It's much bigger than the Holy Roman Empire. you know, it is colossal It goes from Scotland to Iraq. I mean, that tells you, it's huge And of course, it's bigger than it looks because Land transport moves, you can do a car calculation and come up with a round number about twenty times more slowly than today than today. So it's actually measured in because the real distance is how long it takes you and me to get from one place to another. That's the real measure of distance, not miles or kilometers or anything like that. So it's actually twenty times bigger than it looks. It's like running all of Eurasia now. That's the scale you're talking about So it is colossal. Transport is slow On the other hand It's also the longest lived state that Western Europe has ever known. at its fullest extent Apart from that Daian hump It's lasting for five hundred years, half a millennium. So time from us to Henry theIh Nothing has lasted them makes the British Empire look like a complete joke fllash in the pan. Yeah, abbsolutely nothing. compleomplete nothing So it's doing something right. It doing something wrong, although it's colossal and unwielding It works in an amazing way P part of that I learned from your book is Some of that is luck. I mean, they get quite lucky in that there's no massive empires, for example, pushing in through what is now Northern Europe. And that's right. I mean, there's a pattern of Under development still. What's different from China is that the Roman system doesn't take in all the kind of arable farmers of Western Europe someome are left outside, whereereas the Chinese system incorporates basically all the sort of Arable farmers of the eastern end of Eurasia that farming area is still very underdeveloped population densities aren't high and you don't have any large structured states. so If you look out expansion pattern of the Roman Empire, it basically takes over all the bits of Europe that were worth taking over in about the first century BC Tough it on the Scots there, but well' they did argue that actually Britain was not worth taking. No It was a vanity project. Yes. You always go a bit further than me specifific. So if we're going to look at the Whether it's the collapse, the fall of this Western empire, the dissolution, the change of this Western empire and something different Is it important to start with actually not the fifth century when it all gets very dramatic? Is it important to start with the so called crisis of the third century? I believe it is. I think you need some backstory. I think you need to understand how the imperial system is working in the fourth century at the verge of the outbreak of the process of unraveling or whatever you want to call it. because I think if you don't understand The process of unraveveling is dictated, the precise nature of it by the way that the empire works. And if you don't understand how the emmpire works, you're not going to understand the process of unraveling Okay, talk me through it. How does the Empire deal with these great crises it face and then reconstitute itself The third century crisis is really interesting because in part it's caused by the Roman's own success story What they've done is turned the provincial populations everywhere from Britain into Iraq. into Romance So you know, the Brits have stopped painting themselves blue. They're learning Latin, they're living in villas, they're wearing toas, they're in the imperial system and they want more from it So the success of Romanization, policies, self Romanization in the first two hundred years creates a lot of pololitical voices who want a share in the system And the third century crisis is very substantially the internal side of it is about these provincial voices wanting a share in the system It's also caused by the rise of a Persian superpower next door Right, So they've got a peer competitor for the first time in a while. Absolutely first time. And that's in what roughly modern Iran. Iraq and Iran. So southern Iraq and Iran. So it's the two combined. So you can if you think about that, it's a pretty hefty competitor Soentes Christ takes form of various emperors being defeated by the Persians and then various provincial subgroups breaking away from the center in response to the fracturing of imperial authority So the Persians challenge imperial authority on the battlefield and then these provincial communities Stop setting up their own branches of the Roman Empire. So we got a Gallelic Empire. that last for two generations in the second and third quarter of the third century Why this is important is the way that the empire actually overcomes the crisis then shapes the nature of where we are in the fourth century And in particular, I suppose two things stand out. One is we refashion the military Gone are the Legions Early Roman Empire, you have legions, big units, there' five thousand men, there are a small expeditionary army in themselves, each one dotted around the edges of the empire It's a user patient and waiting, basically In response to the breakaway units of the third century, we Create a hierarchy. So there' still units on the frontier, but they're small They're not very well equipped. There are some regional armies intermediate, but the real striking power of the imperial army is concentrated in elite formations around the Empor So he sort of maintains a monopoly of force the emmpire. no political dissidents after the yearar three hundred takes the form of a frontier or a regional commander challenging central immperial authorities. Be they don't have the must. They don't have a chance. Okay. You will be dead in no time at all. So we get lots of coups at the center for control of that potent military force, but you don't see anyone challenging it trying to fragment it. Okay, But then the problem is the emperor has to get that field army to wherever there's trouble on the borders. Yeah That's a huge space. It is a huge space and this I think is the downside of the third century crisis is that it becomes clear that if you've got enough force counter the Persian threat and Persia doesn't go away. it's countered. but it's not destroyed then you've got to have an emperor in the east close to that concentration of military force. And if you've got an emperor in the east, he's too far away fromr the West to control political developments there So it's often talked about as a system. It's not really a system. It's a series of improvisations in each political generation, but we usually end up with more than one em Because of that G got to have one in theseast. and if you've got one in the theseast est is too far. And So is there a formal divide between what becomes this Eastter and West empire It is broadly if you started at the northern end of Greece and went straight up. or less that. Albania Yeah. Okay. Albania is part of the East Serbia would be part of the West. Okay, and Libya, somewhere in Libya? Libya is East. Tropolitania, so Tripoli, that's West And initially that wasn't hardened f. It weren't designed to come to different states. That No just o. And they don't operate completely as two different states. This is a myth that some of my colleagues put aroundound.. Emperors pass laws for both halves of the empire That's telling you they're. And occasionally we take over the other half and they will put a son on the throne and Absolutely. It's not easy. There's lots of conflict One form of internal conflict is replacing your emperor in East or West. The other form of conflict is occasional head on civil wars between Eastern W.. But that roughly speaking It keeps the emmpire going for another hundred or so years. Yes, it does. It makes it impossible for an unraveling of the system in terms of geographical fragments emerging to independence You can't do it. Now you've got a Western emmperor who's sort of really usually in France, Northern Italy. Yes alone. Yeah, nowhere's too far away. Yeah. Okay exactly so. But as we come to the end of that fourth century, we get into the fifth century, the four hundreds AD What starts to happen They we got a new We get a new element into the equation And that is r the edge of Rome's European frontiers Bet the first and the fourth century, We have seen a kind of social and economic and therefore political transformation of largely Germanic speaking neighbours They're becoming a bit more coherent. The economic systems are becoming more productive So their populations are growing. they are still client states. Okay, so they're on the outside the empire. Yes. But their leaders are sort of they're trading with Rome. Absolutely. Rome might be sending ambassadors and giving them some military assistance and things occasionally. Rome turns up once a generation and beats the crap out of them. Right makeake a diplomatic agreement. Okay. A lot of formal submissions rather than necessarily head on conflict, but a little bit of bloodleting just to make the point that the empire iss in charge. But they start to what becomes more coherent, more threatened. They are becoming more coherent. You can see that By the fourth century, the one change we'd make to the map is to remove that Dacian hump Transylvania and Romania. It's part of the third century crisis, the response to it, the empire decides to shorten its defensive lines Okay. And so on this northern frontier, we're starting to see a, well, almost a pear threat like we do in Persia, are we something that can actually beat the Romans? They're too small to beat the Romans If the wind is in their favor and conditions are right, they can extract better terms. Okay So for instance, Goths who are on the lower Danube, opposite Romania and Bulgarian now they can get better terms out of the emmperor Valens in the late three hundred and sixties because the Persians are getting uppetty in the east He needs to go and fight them. So he's in the middle of a gotothic war, but the Persians are much more important. so he'll do a deal gives the gooths something of what they want in order to extract his armies and fight Persjia. So they need that kind of a thing fav And is there anything within the Roman? people talk about disease or economic change or climate change? Is there anything going on within this Roman world that is somehow weaken? Of course, gibven the eighteenth centuryistorian would have said, Well, they all became Christians and started loving their neighbourors and all. And people often still, don't they talk about how they sort of became luxury loving and they all got a bit too they forgot their martial traditions Is there anything going on in this Roman world that is sort of weakening it There' nothing that we can see. Really? Yeahum And this is, in fact, the colossal new datas set that's become available since the nineteen eighties rural serving You can date Roman pottery. to within a decade, its progressions And we know from careful sampling, Denseer concentration of surface pottery means a settlement underneath So rural surveying, very boring. You go move forward and meteter, collect everything, put it in a plastic bag. You don't have to dig anything. No, It's on the surface. Yeah Tractors mean that modern p playlying techniques pull it all up.. So you just go forward, collect it all, look at it. And what's emerged from that is not only where there are settlements in the Roman period, but when they're there because you can date them to within a decade And staggering it would have been to my older colleagues fact, we sort of getting used to it but still thinking about it now that has emerged from all of that is that across the vast majority of this imperial landscape period of maximum Rural population and rural productivity is the fourth century Not earlier You know, this is You know, it's the total game changer. actually. amazing. I think we're all still kind of wrestling was the significance of that and what that does to your understanding of Roman collapse. basically takes out all the old explanations about social and economic collapse There might be other internal reasons, but it's not going to be straightforward social economic et. So things are going pretty so we're approaching four hundred AD. thingsings are going pretty well. Yeah Yes, you wouldn't be looking at it and thinking crisis and actually the sort of Material and non material cultural remains of the fourth century. suggest creativity, they're plentiful. There's a lot of people doing a lot of interesting things the amount of writing Once you realize, which a lot of classes didn't that Christian fourth century people aren't still Romans. You do look at what Christians are writing as well as in the traditional genres, but you add it all in the amount of Creative writing generated in the fourth century is colossal So things are fine You would think so. Well,, apart from that, you've had to divide the emmpire, Yes. Yeah. there are issues and no human state that we've ever seen is without its problems. Well, indeed. Indeed. Who are we to point the finger? Indeed Right, so let's get into those years beyond four hundred. What starts to happen Well, we get a very interesting effect. there's some kind of problem on the Great Eurasian steppe in the world of the Nomads. So east of the Rriver Volgar. N notot exactly sure what causes it. There is some ice core evidence that it was getting a bit hot and dry. It may be Therefore, that the Nomad world is facing a problem about grazing and animals, but That's certainly a plausible candidate. The other would be that actually it's empire building going on and on step because they do that as well. And when they do that, the rest of the world yeah is going find out about it. But what we find out is in the mid three seventies previously unknown in the West, a group of nomads called the Huns start to impact upon Rome's frontier clients in the Danubian region, first off Goths north of the Black Sea So the Goths are now finding themselves squished between these Huns that are arriving and the hammer of the Huns and the anvil of the Roman Emperor. Yes which is going to give away. Yes. they're faced with a dilemma Yeah as to what to do. There are several Different gotothic groups, they don't all do the same thing In the autumn of three hundred and seventy six, two separate large groups of Ghs. One called Tavingi, one called Gutungi ask for asylum inside the Roman Empire. And the Romans are minded to let them in or not? Well,. Valens is in the middle of another war with Persia So all his army is in Syria and Iraq What he decides to do is to let one group in and keep the other group out. No Roman emperor who claims to be chosen to be emperor by the suupreme Creator of the Cosmos can ever admit that he's forced to do anything by a barbarian. This is an admission that he's not actually divinely supported because he shouldn't be being forced to do things, if you were So Valent's propaganda says, ye, great, we love to see the gohs, but actually what he does is only let in one and try to keep the other one out. And he also takes measures to control all the food supplies in the Balkans where the Goths are intruding. So I think Valens is stuck column. Disengageed from Persia quickly enough He's going for the least worst scenario that he can see, which is let him one group of guls keep the other one out I take it, that doesn't work. It doesn't work and I don't think Valens's heart was in that agreement. ever I do think the control of the food supplies is a real indicator that He's thinking I've to do this in the short term, but in the long term, I'm going to restore Normal service And he negotiates peace with Persia. gets his army groups free, negotiates with his nephew, who's the Western emperor Joint campaign In the meantime, I think the Goths are equally I'm convinced that the first agreement is going to hold. So the Goths who are admitted form an alliance with the Goths who weren't admitted, they all end up inside the empire And this is where we are in three hundred and seventy eight And they end up in Adrianopople. So we get this accursed place for the Romans, Adrianopal Valens rushes to fight the Gss before his nephew turns up. Yes, he's got some intelligence I think that only one of the two Gothic groups are there. So he thinks he can win a fast one. Thalland has been a bit short of military victories for a god chosen emperor. So he's looking for one. Nice to get one of the belll. And his nephew has been quite slow in turning up So I guess his advisors said, yeah, okay, we've got an opportunity And the result is one of the great military catastrophes in Roman history. Both Gothic groups were there notot the one. and the Romans are ambushed from the side when they haven't fully deployed and Valens and two thirds of his army are killed. And that's what's always interesting about this story is that it's this catastrophic defeat in the east That actually proves rather disastrous in the West, doesn't it? And is that because we've got Constantinople This is the capital of the East. so you think gosh, they must have been under threat, but they're very well defended the Ghs can't capture that city, can they? They can't and even more amazing wounds. And even more important, they can't get across key revenue producing areas of the Eastern Empire Poostal Turkey, Asia Mina. Syria Middle East and Egypt Right And they are insulated from the threat to the Etern Empire's European territories. Okay. So you can't get at the Eastern Heartlands. It means that there is the constant flow of revenues which keeps the army in existence K keeps on coming So none of the threats to the emmpire Challenge key revenue zones of the Eastern Empire. The tax base remains intact. So the Westerners thought, well, thanks very much.'s Yes, after a while. So you've now got the Goths sort of running wild in the Balkans. Well, the end result of this conflict is that I think East and West agree that they can't at the moment terminate the Goths independent existence. So we got a treaty in three hundred and eighty two. I think dragged kicking and screaming out of the empire which recognizes gotothic autonomy on Roman soil. Within the Balkans. Within the Balkans. O Not a great sign No, and We've got the speeches that the then Eastern emmperor's spokesman gave while trying to sell the agreement to the Senate of Constantinople, which is a gathering of Eastern land owning opinion and he pretty much admits which is Astonishingly rare. that the Empire' been forced into it also looks forward to Gothic autonomy disappearing in the medium term. that as a likely outcome Sure. Of course likeike our public sector debt issue. It just sort of disappearred Grth will make it disappear. It will make it disppear. R Let's get back to the West. What is the problem here in Western Europe? The problem in Western Europe is that we haven't really seen the huns yet. All we've seen is the kind of knock on effects of the Hanock Advance Guard. There is no evidence for large scale hic intrusion into the fringes of Europe itself before the year four hundred. When we first get hands in large numbers in what's now Hungary, That's about four ten Coincidentally, I don't think it's a coincidence. O people think it's a coincidence The years before the sudden appearance of the Huns in Hungary, we get a massive outflow of population from that central European region, the Great Hungarian plain and its adjacent areas, one into Italy one across the Rhine into Gouul two massive invasions One in four hundred five into Italy and one at the end of four hundred six into Gaul The Roman sources concentrate on the effect of these things There was a source which told us what the causes were, but it survives only in fragments and in Bowderes confused later version where someone had read it and copies the bit out So It's entirely reasonable, as some of my colleagues would do to argue that the invasions come first and the Huns move into a power vacuum myself, I think it's the other way around. And why can't the let's do the basic thing first. Why can't Rom Empire just smash these barbarian invasions? Well, it does smash the first one Okay, the invasion of Italy in four hundred five, that is broken up. It's led by a king called Radagaisus, who might be a golf. The sources are messy That's why we can't be certain. But his coalition is broken up. A large number of his elite warriors are drafted into the Roman Army of Italy Lower status warriors are sold off as slaves in such large numbers that the bottom falls out of the slave market in Italy. and Radigasius himself is Executed outside Florence. Right So normalir that's what's limit input. They've been dealing with problems coming from the normal since the beginning. Yes. But you have left this thrust entering Gaul. The thrust into Gaul is more problematic The main military concentration is in Northern Italy, not in Gaul and the local military commanders with landowner support. go into revolt, particularly in Britain That's interesting. they revolt because of the lack of, I think. care and attention coming in their direction The revolt laims itself and the actions of the emperors, particularly Constantine III, the third of the usurpers, is to confront the invaders that have come in. You listen to Dance Snow's History. More Rome falling after this Summer' here and that means travel season is in full swing, road trips, last minute flights, quick weekend getaways, or anything else that feels like an escape And sure Travel can be a little chaotic plans change, things go off track That's what makes it memorable When you're out there making the most of it, it helps to have somewhere reliable waiting for you That's why Best Western hotels and resorts is such a solid option. It's cozy, convenient, and exactly what you need after a full day of exploring. Wandering or just figuring it out as you go This summer get one thousand bonus points and a chance to win two hundred fifty thousand bonus points So wherever you're headed, make your stay part of the journey and make it count with this limited time offer Life's a trip. Make the most of it at bestwesttern. com No additional purchase necessary for sweeps, See bonus Pint in season Sweeps rules for details and visit bestwestern. com for complete terms and conditions What started the Civil War What ended the conflict in Vietnam? Who was Paul Revere And did the Vikings ever reach America Don W Weilddan And on American History hit, my expert guests and I are journeying across the nation and through the years to uncover the stories that have made America. We'll visit the battlefields and debate floors where the nation was formed, meet the characters who have altered it with their touch, and count the votes that have changed the direction of our laws and leadership Find American History Hit twice a week every week, wherever you get your podcasts. American History Hit, a podcast from History Hit Okay so I should say that this Gaulish incursion it stretched across to Britain as well, has it? Well, the effects of it have. so breakdown the people from elsewhere seeing the opportunity jumping. So Konstein III is a military commander in Britain. There are some Moderately high quality troops in Southeastern Britain he unites those with the moderately high quality troops on the Rhine to create his power base. And he says, if Rome are't going to defend us, we're going to try do something ourselves. Okay. So Britain' sort of slightly the risk of sounding like an idiot. They slightly brerexit from the Roman Empire in this period. The end result is that they do Absolutely. It's about another Within a decade or so that's true So curiously Brainort takes it oddly takes itself out of the empire. Okay. It does. Well, Comston is trying to take over the whole empire to start with and in fact Partly Brexit, I mean Yes I call it the first Brexit in one book, just as a joke But it's partly ejected in that in the aftermath of the fallout from all these attacks. The central empire Goodbye. Yeahah. We're never coming back. Yeah, we're not coming back. Yeah. So yes, youve tried to take security into your own hands Well this time, We have other priorities. Right. We have other priorities. And then Britain We'll see incursions from Ireland, from what is now Scotland, from Northern Europe. Yes. We can discuss exactly the extent to which Romanness remains, but it's sort of gone from the emmpire It's gone from the official empire from about the second decade of the fifth century. I mean, I think and I'm not alone, mostost people do think there's a sub Roman population, at least in southern Britain It keeps its ties to the continent that keeps its Latin culture Christans for a generation or two. The Continental Chronicle sets in about four hundred and forty that the manure really hits the air conditioning in Britain. Oh really. So you know twentyenty five years after the separation is when Things get really nasty I think they're probably right. I think they know what they're talking about. Breakdown of agriculture, the barbarian hordes, yes, all that Lge scale intrusion. So I think there's a sort of suny twenty year period in Britain where it's outside the Roman Empire, but still very Roman in character.. So what's going on with this unchecked barbarian invasion through what is now France? clear off in four hundred nine ten into Spain. Wow they're on the move and they divide Spain up between themselves. E except the very northeastern corner So the vast majority of the Iberian peninsula, they divide up amongst themselves This is a remarkable and such you can see why in the past they assumed there must be some other factors at play. they assume there must be some terrible disease in the Roman world because This is in the space of two years. These barbarian kings are just feasting on the corpse of what happened in the Westtern Roman Empire? Yes, that's right The thing is made worse by the fact that the Goths who'd made the treaty in the Balkans in three hundred and eighty two also go into revolt and they move into Italy in four hundred eight Right, so they decide to again, leave the Eastern Empire alone. They now march up through ye, they want a deal. They want a better deal. They've been frozen out of the political establishment of the Eastern Empire The West is obviously in trouble. They can see they can get a better deal from that. And this is Alaric who moves into Italy. March up through what is now places like Croatia and Slovenia, into Italy. And then he gets lots of reinforcements from the leftovers of Radagisus' attack. So o they're still hanging They're still there. few of them around And they substantially increase AlRx So we end up with two big new Barbarian coalitions. that have been created Alarx in Italy and then this emerging Vandal Allen coalition In Spike Just a complete Omnich shambles? Yes Right. And Alaric, once he's in Italy, the unthinkable happens. and Rome itself Yes, itacked. It's suacked, Yes. for the first time in centuries Yes, the last time was some Celts in Th hundred BC, two hundred BC, somethingomething like that I'm a mediealist. I remember of course it's not a test. Okay, butail I've been doing in hundreds of years. Yes. There are foreign enemies rampaging around the streets of Rome. And things get worse. Worse they get better first. Okay They get better in the sense that All was trying to sack Rome to get a deal He's sitting outside Rome for eighteen months He could have sacked at any point But he's trying to use it as a bargaining counter to get a deal out of the Western emmpire They won't do a deal with him. By the way, where is the Westernmpire at the moment?ust a few bloes living on Sardinia. What is the Western Empire is the army groups of Northern Italy The army is still there or the main Central striking force is still there. and the flow of revenues that keeps it in this the sum of it It still li And they're still getting some revenue from North Afica. We' getting lots of revenue from North Africa. Sicily is good Western Orcans, so Croatia is very nice. Lots of money from there. Yeah. Okay. So it's still the organs are still functional. Yes, they are. And when we get a powerful leader emerging in the Western Empire. He's not the emperor, but he's the General Isimo who acts as the front man. thenen he suppresses the usuropers unites the Roman military forces the Goths who've retreated by this time into southern France They've retreated out of Italy because they've kind of been starved out of Italy and no deal has been offered them. He does a deal with them that restricts them to a small area around Bordeaux. and he mobilizes The Goths in alliance with his forces attack the people in Spain And the groups in Spain were two separate groups of vandals. Hasdings and Silings and a number of separate groups of Allans each under their own kings. and it's quite clear that the Allens were originally the most numerous group This leader called Flavius Constantius destroys the siling vandals destroys the independence of the Allans, wins a whole series of victories, and inadvertently creates a new more concentrated Vandal Allen Conederation around the surviving Hazding Vandals. But you know, he wins a whole series of major victories in Spain and restores most of it. Okay, so' pure of control. Okay, so we're going Have a last hurrah here for the Romans Yeah. absolutely And most of Gaul is brought back under control as well. Most of Gaul as well So we're left with a couple of barbarian enclaves around Bordeaux. Yeah, Goths in Bordeaux and probably in Portugal for surviving vandals and Allens at this point As it had many times before, the Roman Empire looks like it might sort of bounce back, it might recover its vitality. It does, it absolutely does No interest yet in Britain because no crisis is still too yet. Okay, what happens next The next crucial move is really that and this is the problem with I mean, you asked about weaknesses in the imperial system The weakness in the imperial system is the lack of any clear succession plan policy In fact, pre mododern empires don't tend to have Clear succession things When it's really important who runs the empire, you can't have Primogeniture. Be get an idiot? You do. Yes. One hates to tell that to kings and things, but it's only when they're not important that you can have primogeniture So periodically the Roman Empire, the course of politics in the Roman Empire, had always been emergence of a strong man. it's a one party state. You think of those images of Putin with those people around the table His power is preeminent When he dies You get chaos Yeah. You know, it's like when Stalin died You had half a dozen people at each other's throat Ring each other. Yeah, exactly until the next one emerges and that can take a while And in that interregum, it offers opportunities once you've got these Barbarian confonfederations on Roman soil they can start taking independent action. So in the middle of the Succession crisis that follows the unlooked for early death of Flavius Constantius, the vandals move into North Africa. Yes, this is the bit they hop across And again, people might be thinking, well, North Africa, what was at the time North Africa enormously valuable Aricultural land farming, bread basket of the Roman Empire. You've got to think Algeria, Tunisia where all the millionaires had their summer houses, indeed their winter houses in the inter warar period. It's gorgeous. C gorgeous. I mean, if people have not been there We're not talking the Sahara desert here. We are talking fields of wheats, fars. Oh yes, and beautiful gardens and lovely temperatures. The Atlas mountains mean there's plenty of rainfall, enough rainfall to generate really prosperous agriculture, and it's aautiful place to live And more than that, it is the dewel and the crown because there are no enemies there You know, Berers raid from the desert occasionally, but they're not a major enemy. You've never had to have a large military establishment there It doesn't cost the Empire a lot contributes a huge amount Not anymore it doesn't, No, it does not Falls over like a pack of cards. Yes. The best bit is really Tunisia and Western Algeria and the vandals seized that in four hundred and thirty nine And that is another real moment of crisis because G fllow of revenues is cut off And the central army, which is what keeps the empire in being, relies on that flow of revenues So the process, at least as I understand it, that brings about the imperial unraveling, is the loss of tax base. which then leads to the weakening of the military forces at the center until the center is no longer the center doesn't have that preponderance of force anymore How long's this stagger on? It staggers on for about two political generations afterout fifteen minutes. Well in Roman terms. Yes. because they do realize that the way to fight back is actually to retake North Africa and the Eastern Empire is still willing to play It doesn never writes the West a blank check But again, the idea that the East leaves the West to its face is just not supported in the evidence So there are Three projected and actual expeditions. to recapture North Africa from the vandals, two of which the East are substantially involved in The first one we got, it's immediately afterwards and four forty two. We're gathering huge armies in Sicily from the east and west. for major expedition But then blow me, Attila sees the opportunity and he invades across the Danube. And that's what stops the four hundred forty two expedition from going. Right these Roman contingents have come from the Danyuard frront Tilller is threatening Eastern territories, so the East withdraws its armies to fight him instead Rome falls After this don't go What started the Civil War? What ended the conflict in Vietnam? Who was Paul Revere? and did the Vikings ever reach America I Don Weildldm And on American History hit, my expert guests and I are journeying across the nation and through the years to uncover the stories that have made America We'll visit the battlefields and debate floors where the nation was formed, meet the characters who have altered it with their touch, and count the votes that have changed the direction of our laws and leadership Find American History Hit twice a week every week, wherever you get your podcasts. American History Hit, a podcast from History Hit So the East has the misfortune to be facing atilla the he.. So again, timing, just as the Roman Empire benefited in some ways from time and space over the previous centuries, it's now absolutelykay. it's got one of the great Nomadic cavalry commanders of all time hanging on the front door. Exactly. And what Atiller has done is it's only, I don't know, maybe a third of Rome's frontier clients run over the border in the three seventies and four hundreds and he's pulled a lot of the rest. into a nomadic empire, which contains a lot of the Germanic speaking frontier clients of the Roman Empire. And those guys know how to fight the Romanans. They do at well. Absolutely. Okay. so that's very potent. So North Africa not Do I remember from your book that there was a gale that destroyed one of these? Yes, they have two more goes, four hundred and sixty one The vandals see that coming and burn the shipping, which I meaned in Spain. And then four hundred and sixty eight is the big one And the Eastern empire really burns the money on that Huge expedition there against the Lee shore in a storm And the vandals throw in fire shhips. Wow So it's like the Spanish Armada in spades. But it is a bit like Spish armada in that it really feels like one of those moments. I remember reading that in your book years ago and thin, o, that feels like one of those moments. That's where history at the course of history. It could have worked. It really could have worked because Only what? sixty years after that An East Roman expedition does manage to land and does conquer Vandal North Africa. It's not an impossibility. It could have happened in the four hundred sixties. And if it happened in the four hundred sixties, while Italy, Sicily Southern Gaul and the Adriatic coast are all still part of a functioning rum Western empire. then yeah, could have led something. It would have led to something. Instead what? Instead if it doesn't, and that rump empire, when do you think If we can that we should put a date on the end of that Western empire. It is the defeat of that Expedition in four hundred and sixty eight, which clearly changes perceptions That's what makes it clear that The Western center, immperial center is not going to be revivified in any major way. So immediately in four hundred and sixty nine The Goths break out of their Gaallic reservation, start conquering Spain for themselves. If you can't trust these Goths, who can you trust? Okay. So tough few years to be Spanish. Yes to be living in Spain. Yeah It really is. Burgundians who have also fled huns there in sort of Geneva in the Rome Valley. they break out, start making an independent empire This is what happens stuck out of partarticipation in an imperial project, they realize that the center does not have enough money and enough military force to force them into a political relationship and they Stop creating their own structures. And Roman landowners, we have a lovely letter collection from a man living in central Southern France at the time They're caught between a rock and a hard place. Their lands are where they are. Their land is the total source of their wealth and elite status. You can't move it. It's not movable wealth Not stock and shares, it's where it is. You're faced with a quandary. what is the best path to secure your future Do you try and stay part of a r Roman emmpire for as long as you think there's going to be one? Do you start cozing up to the nearest barbarian king, Goth or Burgundian? And you can see what's very nice about this letter collection, I think, it's a man called Sidonius Apollinaris, and you see his friends. and they make different choices. you know It's one of those moments where you don't know what's going to happen peopleople are guessing they're making the best guess and acting on it Some marry off that unmarried sister to the local barbarian chief and hope that they can keep the party going. Yes. abbsolutely. So we've got the Burgundians, we've got the Goths inv in Spain. comeome on, finish off Italy for me Yes, we've had renegades from because Atila's pars beeneen and gone st Ailla dies. He dies in four hundred and fifty three and his empire breaks up Well, in a succession dispute between his studons, which gives everybody the chance to clear off because they don't want to be part of the Hanic Empire, quite a few of them have ended up in Italy including a man called Odaaka who is a senior general. the Tax revenues are not there to support that army anymore and it revolts And it revolts over a lack of pay, which is not surprising. 'a we've got to find a different way of paying it There's no more money in the Roman treasury. No, there is not And he topples the last Caesar. He does, yes and crowns himself He calls himself king but doesn't say what he's king of. Okay What Brilliant about him is He sends a senatorial embassy to Constantinople sending back the imperial regalia, whatever they were and saying There's no need for more than one Roman emperor anymore So he doesn't define the new situation is. How hard? Yeah. Well, I think it's a bit like breakup of the Soviet Union with the emergence of those republics. know, what is this political? It's interesting he doesn't get there and think, o, Rome Quite like this, I might crown myself emmperor. Yeah It's interesting that he brings the curtain down when. I think he was Concern that Constantinople might intervene Okay. She actually say, look I'm not a prettender to your thrat Exactly. But there is now a new situation Yeah, because actually the person who takes over from him, Theodic the Ostrigov He does the same kind of thing He projects himself as an emperor He allows his subjects to respond to him as though he was an emperor, but he never calls himself an emper. Just as he talked about with that amazing study of pottery, it seems to me that historians have been backward and forth on what that means for the people of this space that used to be the Western Empire Do you think in some places it would have felt like not much had changed? As you say these landownersort of make an accommodation. You put the local German in the palace and then you keep running the show and keep the water running on the aqueducts Certainly certainly in the first instance, yeah, in the first generation or so, it would have seemed that way. In some places, the end of the Empire takes different forms in different places So in North Africa, for instance, the vandals settle themselves in the richest provinces Th were states owned by absentee Romans was to into the empty state the homes. So there's no sign of massive economic dislocation within For the North African provinces, that archaeology is quite well known and the local sort of officials are still colling their taxs but now they're giving it to the guy and them big houses around. That's right. Yeah. So The vandals are constraate in what's now Tunisia They don't pay taxes. the tax structures break down there, but Western Algeria and southern Tunisia, the two other provinces, they do pay taxes. And that carries on as normal Likewise, certainly in much of southern Gaul to local landowners make their peace with Gothic power. This is the Visigothic kingdom We have a letter collection from the first genereration of that kingdom. And a lot of those landowners are still there And I suppose they're saying to this gooss, look at me. Don't smash everything up. There's money here. we'll put you in the big house will keep the systems of Roman government going and you can benefit. you know, there's no point torturing everything and That's right, But there are land confiscations. I'm sure This has been much debated in the last schullly generation There was one very popular line of argument when I was doing my finals back in nineteen eighty one. Large book coming out two months before I did finals. Thank you so much I just argue that they didn't get actual land, they got tax revenues but actually The evidence for that is really ropey and it's quite clear that you get land expropriations partarticularly in the Burgundian kingdom, a little bit in the Visigothic kingdom and so on. These people have fought quite hard to be here They've suffered from the huns, they've fought Roman armies. They expect to payo and they want landed capital. Can we finish on Britain? When I read your book twenty years ago. and Britain feels like a place at one extreme Yes And that does feel a little bit more Collapse? Yes, absolutely. The unraveling of the imperial system would have felt different in different places And certainly in Northern Gul and in Britain The archeology And actually the historical evidence, although it's not great from Britain, makes it very clear that you're looking at something much more apocalyptic As we said, it looks like these Roman landowners survive exiting the system for a generation or two in the fifth century. byy the end of the fifths middle of the sixth century, they have completely gone They just They're nowhere to be found. No, they're not. The villas disappear The towns disappear. Roman London is a sort of ghost. Yeah, absolutely. Latin disappears. All the marks of Roman culture disappear and actually the latest DNA evidence, although it's only one site It had been argued that They stopp being Roman, but they kind of make themselves into Anglo Saxons I never really bought that. You've got one very interesting cemetery now from Dover looking at Anglo Saxon elite from the fifth into the sixth century And the vast majority of the families in there and you can see they're related families, they are intrusive continental