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With over one hundred thirty two thousand students joining in both on campus and online, GCU is proving that education can be affordable and exceptional GCU is purpose driven education Find your purpose today at gcu. edu Hey everyone, I'm Andrea Canon. We are talking Dateline. Today, we are here with Lester Holt to discuss his episode called A Killing in Midtown If you haven't seen it, you can watch the episode on Peacock or listen to it in the Dateline podcast feed and then come right back here. Later, we'll have an extra clip from Lester's interview on the streets of Manhattan with former Detective Sergeant John Griffin. Okay, let's talk dateline. Hey Lester. Hey Andre, good to see you Yeah, good to see you too Wow, this is a riveting episode. I mean, it was reallyally good because we've all heard this story and we've seen pieces of this story. but this is the first time I've seen the story put all together Yeah, this story well it's still unfolding even as we speak, there's a trial in September, but we went back and trying to understand that people at the center of this Luigi Manioni, you've heard the name many times, the suspect who will face trial. And then of course the CEO himself and Brian Thompson, of course, is cer of this because he was walking across the street from his hotel to an investors' conference, a big deal in his industry that was about to take place that morning. It's early in the morning H for people to understand, but midtown Manhattan is not that crowded actually in the W or you know, six, seven o'clock hour Yeah as this was. So he's literally ambushed on the streets of New York And you know looking at the tapes, it's still hard to know whether Brian Thompson was aware that someone was following him, had literally jumped from the shadows. but it all plays out very quickly. These two lives of these two men that none of us knew suddenly collided in an incredible fashion. Yeah. and you know, you see Brian's back to his assailant And it seems like Brian Thompson, as you said in the piece is walking into a trap. And then like out of a movie On this surveillance video, you see this assailant lift up a gun. I mean, I froze it because I just I just looked at it for a few seconds the assailant just standing there. with this very professional king weapon Yeah, and you look and many of us have seen certainly in the movies, you know the bad guy puts on the silencer on the gun. We talked to a detective who in his whole career never saw a silencer in this sort of thing. So that in itself said, wow this is this is professional or someone who wants to give the impression certainly that this is professional. Yeah, I was really surprised by that detective saying that what was it twenty in his twenty five years, he'd never seen a silencer, which I guess we're so used to it in TV and movies people using these, you know, silencers that for an NYPD detective to have never had seen one Incredible. And of course, they later as part of the evidence is a is a gun that that police say they recovered He did apparently have in his possession gun with a silencer. Well, speaking of that gun, one of the things that sent me down the rabbit hole lester was like, you know, the bullets that handwritten on them was depose delay deny, which is, you know, apparently the criticism of how health insurance companies handle claims. And I started looking into it because I felt like I had seen it before. and You know, this has happened where things are written on bullets, maybe with a Sharpie or they can even be inscribed you know, permanently into the into the ammunition U And so there was the Ice field office shooting in Dallas, the shell casing said anti Iice, the murder of Charlie Kirk Hunters apparently would inscribe or have inscribed inspirational messages on their casings. even back to World War two, bullets and bombs, they would write things on the ammunition. Yeah, I mean, immediately made a statement, also immediately made it very clear to investigators this was not about this victim's private life. This was something bigger than that And with those cartridges, there were two of them that had been spent, had been fired. There's another one that had not been fired But they immediately clued investigators in that This was likely over the health the state of the healthcare system. Right. And it really One thing that seemed to come full circle, Ted Kazinsky, the unibomber Apparently he used to inscribe the letters FC into parts of his bombs, which those letters he explained stood for Freedom Club You learned that Luigi Mangioni had an interest in Ted Kzinsky. So well before Mangioni was a suspect or before the murder, he lived in Hawaii. He was part of a tech community They established a book club at one point. One of the books they read was the Manifesto by the Unibomber M people subsequent to the murders have thought that maybe that pointed to a motive in this case. But we talked to a journalist who has been heavily covering the story who said that they were never able to make a linkage between that book club And the subject being Kazinsky and is the murder he was later charged with. Yeah, but he did go on though to talk about Ted Kazinsky so clearly The unibomber was on his mind. Yeah. and he basically concluded that the unibomber, in this case, take his inscy got it all wrong because he hurt innocent people. So he did later talk about that in some of his writings, which do become key in this case and likely in the trial Um, so so we know he had Kinsky on the mind, but is that part of a motive for murder? We just don't know. Yeah. There's such a contradiction with Luig Gi Mangioni. You know, he's here he is You know, he's traveling like he's living in Hawaii. He's traveling to places like Japan, other places in Asia. Thailand. Thailand seeking spiritual enlightenment. You know, and now he's alleged to have committed this brutal crime You know, it just it just feels like two different people Yeah, there was a lot going on. We know that he had had chronic back problems and that's important because one of the things that he did in Hawaii was seek treatment. Someone had turned him on to a yoga instructor Um promised that he could help alleviate his pain. and he apparently did just that. He did visit this yoga teacher. he did, you know received some therapy and by accounts that we've seen he was pleased with the results and had actually started to feel better Yeah, it just it's strange though, when you think of someone who's spiritual and light and then is accused of a crime like this. It's like it just, it's like it doesn't add up The other thing that people kept saying was that He didn't seem to express any hatred for the insurance companies, you know on this journey of his. likeike he wasn't going after them or talking about them constantly. So it's like where did it come from? We understand that at one point while he was in Thailand, he was talking to an English speaker and the subject apparently came up of health care systems, you know, comparing against the U S. And it sounds like it wasn't the heated discussion But he pointed out that that there were issues with the American health carere system as compared to some of the others overseas. And keep in mind, this conversation is taking place overseas. What we have is a lot of strands in this story that to move together you're like, aha, hereere we go. Here's the motive and boom You know, we're left wondering so After the break, we are going to have more of your interview with retired Detective Sergeant John Griffin about surveillance cameras in New York City Insurance is not one size fits all That's why drivers have trusted progressives name your price tool for years Just tell prorogressive what you want to pay And they'll show you coverage options that fit your budget Visit progressive. com to find a car insurance rate that works for you Progressive casualty insurance Company and affiliates, prrice and coverage match limited by state law. 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Call one eight hundred Ganger, click ranger d. com or just stop by Ranger for the ones who get it done I loved seeing you out on the streets, you with the detective and great interviews, by the way, with these retired detectives that we're able to actually talk about this because We haven't really heard anyone, you know, talk about it like this yet in depth from law enforcement Um, So to see them talk about the surveillance cameras in New York City It it's just so interesting howve we've turned into the society where every corner you turn There's a camera watching you And you talked about how these detectives can just sit at their desks and pull up any camera in the city It's really Remarkable. Let's take a listen to more of your interview with retired Detective Sergeant John Griffin, who really painted this picture for us of just all the cameras that are in New York City Every single one of these buildings probably has a camera And a lot of these a lot of the vehicles going by have cameras on them I mean, it's in this I mean, we're luck In this city you can't especially in Manhattan. You're covered. Are those used primarily as traffic cameras or just They're for traffic, they're for events, they're for helping solve crimes. Yeah. They're for monitoring things going on I mean, if you know there's there's something going on here like a Like a minor demonstration that you don't want to send people to you can watch it from there and makeake sure everythingone's going alright. I mean, it's They've got a ton of uses. For us in the investigations world, Unbelievable. First thing you asked for it now. whereere's the video? That's all anybody wants now You see that little bulb under there and that can scan this whole It three hundred sixty right here. Wow. W Yeah.'s it's incredible And like I said, before this, We used to laugh in the homicide squad. We said it was a lot like deadest catch. Yeah. onnce you leave port, you don't come back without fish. And they would go out for ten hours at a time getting what they can and then the next they do the same thing. Wow. And And imagine doing that without all the help we had. You know, in a routine case, you have one or two guys doing this. That's hard to imagine. And then you have to go back and watch it Yeah But if it's your video, it must be easier. Our video is It's aame it's so much easier. And the big thing about our video is that it's set up so you can see long stretches. So you don't have to pull the video from here. When you lose him down there that at that corner or two corners down, now you hop down there and that's where you pick it. P him up Imagine how many crimes must be solved in New York cameras I'm sure the number is huge. Yeah, ye,s know you sting them up there. I mean, we're all aware of them kind of vaguely aware. but yeah, when you start multiplying, okay, you've got city and police cameras, now you've got, you know, every building owner has a c has a camera. We I've been in taxis now where they've got cameras. So there is a wealth of information, but someone still has to do the tedious hard work of going through it, matching it, and creating a timeline. If something happened at that particular corner, a detective sitting at his desk that believeves headquarters can go right on and retrieve the pictures there. And then they begin linking it to the pictures to the next place they see the suspect and so on and so forth What's important here, Andrea, is Police say their best investigative tool in this kind of case. Of course, you want to pull the cameras, but you also want to pull them in a way that you're basically working backwards. You want to know where the killer or the suspect has been and that will help inform as to where he may go Why is that important? Because that's how they uncovered the slip in this case. They always wait for that moment, the suspect. drops his or her guard, in this case, he lowered that mask, exposed a little bit of his face and boom police suddenly had a face to go in this man on That was huge. They and you see him smiling At one point, you also can see those eyebrows You know, that's what everybody was talking about, the eyebrows. And he even talks about it in this, it was like a to do list that he had to pluck his eyebrows Yeah, he had apparently, you know, based on his writings had prepared for being having a life on the run and taking certain precautions. I mean, know smart guy clearly aware that there's cameras. I mean, who doesn't know there's cameras now I suppose. Yeah. and goingoing backwards is when the, you know, the assailant may be less on guard, right before they've committed a crime versus after when You're going to be doing everything you can to hide your face, obviously. You catch me a week ago and I'm thinking about doing this murder, but I'm not my security is not up to snuff. Then you take me a day or hours before the murder. I'm now on guard now because I might get found out. I think that's the mentality that they want to work off of and explit if they can, the investigators. Yeah, because you still can get away with something if you're wearing a mask, if you have a hood on. if I mean cameras, they're not X ray cameras See through that So you do have to keep looking and looking and looking and waiting for your suspect to slip up, which is what they say happened here. So obviously he has discovered Luigi Mangioni in Altuna, Pennsylvania. What was happening with the McDonald's workers? Were they not did they not want to participate yet in dateline? or did they were they told not to because of you know, the trial coming up Well that. I can tell you in general, this has been a very difficult story to get people to step forward. By now, I think we've established this is not a typical murder story. This is not a typical crime. Yeah This was a case of rage, a kind of a simmering rage out there that we were able to tap into about the ethics and practices of the health carere industry. Its started more than a nationwide conversation, kind of an outpouring And if people say You know, well, of course, I'm against violence. off course, I'm against murder But And it's that but that always kind of really changes the conversation. Do you remember the movie John Q with Denzel Washington? Well, I sure do Yeah Yeah. And so I'll just Reads like really quickly. It's a devoted father His young son collapses and is diagnosed with an enarged heart. When he discovers that the familyily's health maintenance organization, HMO inssurance Policy will not cover the cost of a lif saving heart transplant And his own resources are exhausted. he takes drastic measures driven by desperation. He takes the hospital's emergency room hostage to force the medical board to put his son's name on the transplant list. And you know, it just seemed like it it just popped into my head that movie when I heard about this case thinking that like Luigi Mangioni has been done wrong by United Healthcare somehow Like they denied his back surgery or, you know, I'm making that up. Yeah There's like nothing there, which is so odd United Healthcare says they never had a Luigi Mangione on their insurance rollles. It's very odd because as I said, there are so many strands of the story that keep leading you to toward a conclusion And then it just, it's like cotton candy just kind of melts away in your mouth You know, obviously some of this will come out. maybe all of it will come out in trial Mhm. questionion from a legal standpoint when we talk about trial you know, will they be able to find a jury who can set aside any issues with the health carere industry? Because, you know, it's not out of the realm of possibility. The defense may make this a trial, not about murder, but about health care industry. Right. I mean, yeah, there was so much fanfare Lester from the very beginning. I think, you know, all these elements, right, like the chase, the, you know, searching for this the suspect um, the bullets, you know, then finding this this alleged shooter in the McDonald's and even bringing him back to New York. I mean, off of that helicopter. I swear it looked like El Chapo was arriving in the city You know, it was it was it was intense, right And so there's all these people now are who support Luigi Mangioni. and you showed some of the clips, you know, from social media, free Luigi and his beautiful eyebrows, you know, America rooting for the assassin. And then we have these ladies more recently outside of court They call themselves the Mangionistas. and they actually were able to get press passes for court and The it sparked a review of press passasses, Miror Mom Dnie, you know said that they probably shouldn't have had these passes, but didnt also didn't say he was going to revoke them but it's just another element to all of this. And that's one of the things we talked about with one with one of mr. Thompson's friends and former colleagues who's just devastated that there are people who who think somehow that he may Mr. Thompson may have deserved to be murdered I speak in this hour, as you know, I speak to an activist who was part of the fundraising mechanism that created a legal defense fund for the killer. And this is before we knew that Manjioni was going to be a suspect. This thing was started very early on. So So going into this we certainly couldn't ignore that there is this this simmering outrage out there. At the same time, we wanted to you know, show who Brian Thompson was family man, fifty year old father of two, a midwest guy who wanted to go back to Iowa. We wanted to tell part of his story and remind that You know, there is a victim in this case and the victim in this case is Brian Thompson. You know, even speaking to the detectives, we talk to them about how they feel about investigating a murder in which potential killer is being, you know, cheered on And they take it very seriously because as one of them pointed out, you know as a detective, we've had a knock on a lot of doors and inform people that their loved one has died know, by homicide or some other horrible occurrence And the fact that someone's life could be cheapened in such a way and gunned down on the streets because you may not like their industry. they take very, very seriously. tend to feel the same way with the detectives. I mean, this is what we do on dateline. We interview families every week, you know who who have lost a loved one to murder and That is not lost on me. and that is a fear of mine for this country that people are glorifying murder because they don't like, as you said, the industry. I think it's wrong. Brian Thompson has two children, a wife. family, you know, and there's so many Parallels almost. I hate to say it, but between Brian Thompson and alleged killer Luigi Mangioni, that they were both valedictorians Of their high school, they were both smart Um, you know, they both came from these, you know, one had more privilege than the other, buts like they came from good families Um, you know, so there were some similarities there. Yeah, it's really this is a story about how those two lives and you know collide in this in this speacularly awful fashion. Lester, thank you so much for bringing us this story and this Really fascinating conversation. Of course Of course, Lester will also bring you any updates, breaking news updates on this case on Dateline trrue Crime Weekly Coming up after the break, Mike Nardy, dateline producer who produced this episode and senior producer Alison Or will be here to answer your social media questions. 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No purchase necessary, end eleven fifty nine PM central timee august twenty eighth open to USDC residenceents twenty one plus visit shell dotuss slash fhil dash lucky for rules and entry details. The deeadlines pressure tention You may just brush it off as stress, but' your hair, I gotta tell you, it's eating us alive iming our very roots, breaking us apart. And the more you stress, the more we slip away Now please, take a deep breath. There's something you can do. Pantine Abundant and Strong System strengthens your hair against stress, reducing hair loss by eighty five percent. Only the strongest will survive this shedding. Panteen Aundant and Strong Welcome back, everyone, and Allison and Mike. Thankk you for joining us for this social section Hey, Andrea. Hey Andrea. Yeah. G job on the story. Thanks.. So our first question is from Ashley, It's either Day or Die. I'm not sure how to pronounce her last name on Facebook about Luigi Mangioni's movements after his alleged role in Brian Thompson's murder. So Ashley wrote, he mentioned he was a lone wolf But was anyone helping him evade custody after his plan was complete and his face was on the news? Did he have a mission to do more harm? Do we know if there's any more intel on that? One thing that was interesting is that some of the video that has not been released, we've been told that it shows the suspect on a cell phone And so there was speculation at the time that maybe he was working with someone, but there's certainly been no indication from the authorities that That's true. And obviously, his face was all over the place. He was recognizable enough that the people in a McDonald's in Pennsylvania recognized him. And so I'd always wondered, Did his family recognize him I have a son in his twenties, I'd recognize my son if I saw half of his face on TV. So and we do have there is reporting out of San Francisco that his family had filed a missing persons report. and there is reporting that the police officer who took that missing Pons report recognized him and there was contact with the family