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Yep, even on weekends. sretty much all he talks about in a good way What's in your wallet Terms apply, see capital onene dot com slash bank guuy, Capital One NA member FDIC Hey everyone, this is Andrea Canning and we are talking Dateline and today we are joined by the legendary Keith Morrison and his legendary producer, Tim Ellinger. They are here to discuss their dateline episode Secrets Unmasked This episode is about the murder of Regina Hicks, a twenty five year old Ohio woman who disappeared on the way to pick up her son from her estranged husband, Paul Days later, Regina's car was found submerged in a pond with her body in the passenger seat What followed was an investigation spanning two decades, a bizarre arson scheme and a reluctant witness If you haven't seen the episode yet, you can stream it now on Peacock or listen in the dateline podcast feed, thenen come right back here Later, we will have an extra clip from Steve Gates, the witness who kept his silence for nearly twenty five years, reflecting on how he feels about Paul now And we will answer some of your amazing questions from social media Okay, let's talk dateline. Hey Keithan Tim. Hi. Hi, how are you, Andrea? Nice. It's always nice to see you guys since you're out there in California, southern California, so I don't get to see you very often. It's great to see you So let's dive right into this episode The first thing that I thought of as I was watching was I'm always struck by, know, just the opening lines, right? And in the body of the episode. And in this one, you know, we're talking about Ohio, what is it Willard? Ohio Yeah. And you know, I was an anchor in Ohio. So I know those little towns, It's not super little, but its not it's not huge either It always strikes me How these most of our date lines happen in these small towns. You know, they don't happen in the big city. In fact, I've done, I think, one dateline in New York City And I've done a lot of date lines. So I mean, how what's your take on that that these crazy things happen in small town America? likeike in this episode? It's because it is a small town. I mean there's even a genre called murder in a small town, right of I think TV show called that. And if you if you if you look at all the famous Prime levels, most of them occur in small towns. Aga Christie loved those country mansions, didn't she And there's a reason because Um It's a little place where this sort of crime doesn't normally occur. You expect it to happen in a big scary city and not in a sweet bucolic little place that everybody where everybody knows everybody else because it does, we're really interested in it. One of the things about the small towns is that because they are small towns, relationships are tighter You know, more people Everybody knows everybody. and emotions and things like that I have found in stories like People are tighter There's more emotion. That's a big part of it. Yeah, I agree with you Keith, you know where I am from, Blue Mountain in Canada, which is on Georgian Bay. It's part of lake here on the Great Lakes. And so this was, you know, as I'm watching the opening of this episode, I'm thinking to myself, you know, I finally know sort of what it feels like, you know to have a murder happen in a small town like that and for it to affect you because I am from a very small town. And we did have a murder that was a diabolical murder that we featured on Dateline. in November and it was the the fire captain who had murdered his wife Ashley, and it happened three miles from my house. whereere I grew up. So it's a new perspective for me. Yeah would be. Yeah. And you know, along the lines of what we've been talking about the Regina's uncle Regina, the victim in this story, her uncle said something that struck me. and he said there's no way to explain it until you experience it yourself. And you don't have any idea really what these people are feeling when someone they love has been murdered Even though this case occurred twenty four, twenty five years ago now, the scars are They're not healed The people are still hurting, they' still emotion You could see it. Yeah. And those things never heal it. the You know, as they say, the ripples go out a long way and they but but they also last for generations. So people Anybody, even somebody who was a small child who you'd think would grow up and forget all about it, they don't forget about it. It informs everything in their lives Re Regina's cousin. said, you know, when the verdict came in guilty, she could feel it in her toes. When she told me that, I was like, oh my God, you you could she still I saw her that day. I was there for the murder. I saw her that day and she teears just kept coming and she just couldn't believe that finally. Finally, The emotion is's still right on the surface. You really brought to life Regina in this episode, especially with the challenges that we have sometimes telling these stories when they're so old because we don't have video and all the crystal clear pictures that we have now, it's more of a challenge. So it's the people It was the people that you interviewed who were the ones who did such a good job of Bringing her to focus Regina and bringing her to life. I will not deny that frequently when When I'm just speaking for myself launched into a story, one of the kind of stories we do I'll get a sense of, Oh, no, not again. We have to invade somebody's grief and we're going to do this story about the worst thing had ever happened to somebody And in the end The thing that makes me glad we tell the story is are because you get to know the person at the heart of it, which is generally the way In a way in a strange way, it's like you are celebrating a person who died a long time ago. I agree. I agree. And And also Keith, they look like they wanted to be there talking about Regina. You could de with it. Yeah, they did. Regina's brother, for instance, Chuck Roe, I hit it off with Reen's brother Chuck because he was wearing a Marine cap, United States Marines with a snowy Marines. like the Marines Marines there. Yes. I know you do. Chuck he's wearing this hat and I introduce myself And I said, you're a Marine, really? And then I asked like, you know, whereere'd you serve? And he goes, Well, one of my foreign deployments was in Somalia. L wass like Somalia nineteen ninety two, Somayia. And I said, Were you there on the first day first wave, he's like, Ohh yeah, yeah. All the TV cameras were in my face I said, Oh my God, that was me. I was there on the beach literally funny how past cross, isn't it?ross. So we hit it off and it was like but it was very funny. Anyway, his that family is Really very, very nice to people Nice. The crime, it starts out with, you know, she goes missing, of course, Regina. She they find uh, her car in the water and the cause of death is ruled as a drowning. Manner of death, however, is pending And I'm thinking to myself, this poor woman is in the passenger seat So How do you figure that and she's got marks on her? How do you figure that she that this is anything other than A homicide. I don't I didn't really get that. It was a sce of puzzlement to a lot of people, I think. Yeah. Yeah, the coroner may well have felt that he would be sticking his neck out a little too far if he went to declaring that it was a homicide ight. How else does she get in there though Well you know There are ways and ways. It's possible that she could, she could slide into the passenger seat. When things are at least remotely possible that you know a good many in the law enforcement community quite probably quite rightly are saying, well, we can't quite go with that yet. It's interesting though, because we were talking about the case in Blue Mountain with Ashley with her husband who was the fire captain and her body He was he had pushed the car. into the ditch during a snowstorm to make it look like She had had a car accident. There she is in the passenger side Again, it's another story where the victim is in the passenger side. So how did she you know, drive herself into the ditch Right? It It didn't add up. Exactly. right Yeah And then later on, of course, much, much later on, years and years and years later on That manner of desk is changed to one that I think everybody you know, was able to sign on to and that M all the difference. I don't want tona say this in the wrong way when they changed that to homicide. I was so glad for her family. To me, that was movement. That was like acknowledging We believe Regina was murdered. and now it's official. Sadly, it came after Regina's mother was was dead. and she had campaigned for that for years and years if it didn't survive to see it It was a real shame. And her mom, Regina's mom had put up billboards to keep the case alive. and I covered the Crystal Rogers case last year where that became a real focal point of this were these billboards of, you know, where is Crystal and they believed also they knew kill her or even though she'd never been found. I think the billboards, I think they're so effective becausecause it not only does it show how much the family cares, right that they're not giving up, but it's in your faceace Every day, if you live in these areas where these billboards are, like you cannot ignore it. And in the Crystal Rogers case, they put up a billboard right next to the shheriff's Department It cannot be overstated how important it is for families in a cold case to keep at it to keep pushing. And it helps the police too because it you know, they they may seem annoyed, but the fact is they need cover sometimes to continue an investigation that otherwise they wouldn't be able to afford But if somebody's really ramping up for it all the time then their bosses are going to say, yees, spend the money. And so Things get done When we come back, we will have an extra clip from Steve Gates, the witness who kept his silence for nearly twenty five years When it comes to your wireless bill, Transparency is everything That's why Mint Mobile's wireless plans have no gimmicks, no gauchches, just high speed data and reliable coverage on the T Mobile five G network To get your new wireless plan for just fifteen bucks a month. Go to mint moobile. com slash stateline. 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Call one eight hundred Ganger, click ranger. com or just stop by Ranger for the ones who get it done M people more devices More AI The way we live today takes a lot of energy. Wind and solar are powerful but not always available. That's where natural gas comes in with reliable energy whenever it's needed Companies like Energy Trfer work behind the scenes, safely transporting these resources to facilities across the country through a network of underground pipelines Learn more at ittakes ennergy d. com Let's talk about the other half of this story that just really went off the rails in a lot of bizarre ways. You know, from the beginning of the show where I see somebody with this long hair and they've got glasses on and then there's a fire. I'm like, where is this going Yeah, Well, exactly, it's what anybody looking at the story would think. You guys had me hooked. It was the weirdest d thing, you know? I wrote down the name of the actually I don't even want to Mbe I shouldn't even give it any publicity, but like where you can You can get these wearable masks. I'm not sure they even sell them anymore. That company that was involved in our story Andrew is no longer in business. They werere based in the UK and they they are I'm kind of actually glad about that. So it'ace That's my face. Yeah. You know, it's one thing to have like a Halloween costume or something. but like You have a plan where you're going to use your current girlfriend to wear ex girlfriend's face. to Burn down Your house What Yeah, it it was it was it was a stretch. The other thing that was in this, which was the sppoof card to be able to call people spoof card And it appeared to be coming from a different number altogether. And until they did a real deep dive on that, it looked as if people who were innocent We're guilty and vice versa? The Claremont County Ohio Sheriff's Department, you know, started investigating this case and they did a pretty good job And then using some of their information, this insurance investigator named Zach McCume He was like the super investigator And he got to the bottom of this. and every time like he learned something, he couldn't believe the next thing he'd learned You know, he was literally, he was like in all the things he's done in his career ever. He's never seen anything like this. C have listen like that guy all day long. He was ye He definitely had me at hello. I was like, okay, I'm interested in this person in this story. And I always like it when people have specialties. you know, so he's saying right out of the gate, my specialty is fire arson. Yeah. Yeah. He's a certified fire investigator as if you know, like a fire marshal would be. The second person in the house lighting the fire Do we think that was Paul then, or do we not know? Do we not know? or do you know here We don't know who we don't know. Okaykay. No. Oh well,' Paul. So you would know, right? If it was Paul Right? Paul had an alibi, a perfect alibi. He was at a hotel three hours away The thing about Paul was this and it's central to the story. He was one of those guys who was always the leader of the pack in a small town. If you'd gone to the big city, he would have been shot down pretty quickly if you went to work for IBM or something You know, he was a railwaywan. He knew other people around town. They'd drive around in his cars. He would always pick up a kind of a satellite someomebody who was enthralled with him, who would do whatever he wanted them to do, who would be afraid of them, but wanting to attach to them at the same time. R Kind of like Steve Yeah you go. Yeah, sure. Terry Sweet is another person You know who went along with Paul, rightight? Why should she say allegedly Terry Sweet. But she died, right? So she she died the very day the the insurance inspector was going to talk to her talk to her again.. And Andrea, this is funny. this is something we can bring up. I mean, obviously we attempted to get the death certificate and to see if there was any investigation. But how did she die Apparently according to the little information out there is that It was probably alcohol related and it was quote unquote, natural causes. Does do people think otherwise Well, there may could be But nobody iss going about it Yeah on the. There are some people who believe that coincidences happened. and other people who believe oincidence is unlikely Lw enforcement generally doesn't believe in coincidences. As I always say on this podcast, it seems like an awfully big coincidence that she does the timing of her death However, Paul was never We should say was never charged with No terrible exactly. death was never arrested. Absolutely not. No I mean, Paul was a really a charmer came to choosing girlfriends and I mean, no disrespect to any of the girlfriends you may have had over the years. he would choose people who would be very pleased to be with such a handsome virl guy. pull them in and they would do anything for You said to Kelly, you said, you were in love. And she said Lust. L like dead ken. Like she was not She was not happy. She said in our in our interview that she really liked him at first. Like he was really nice. he was Yeah, that he was super charming. She was fun K gave the appearance that he was going to be taking care of her Kelly is very upfront about that in the main interview that we did with her. Why was Kelly's face obscured in the police video because at the time she was ended up not being charged So they didn't want to they at least that, they didn't want to have right R. Yeah Yeah. And then also the detective, I mean, poor Kelly is there for a child handoff at Kroger and tasers are being pointed at her. I mean, I can't even imagine. Th she's in the interview room and the detective's talking about the woman in the fire. She's rather large And then Kelly's like, you hear Kelly say, Oh my God, and I'm not sure. I can't tell if she's talking about her saying she's rather large or the whole situation. I was like, that interview occurred probablyroably seven to ten days after the arrest And the female detective there was starting to realize I don't know. I'm not sure this is the same person either. Ieresting Yeah Yeah, but at first there was it was very There was a lot of, you know, feeling that that was Kelly, you know. yeah. I mean, there's a mask and the hair and also, you know, nighttime security camera from house, It's never going to be that crisp and clear. You could have gotten away with something like that potentially if you had just an, you know, not maybe not a strong invvestigator on it By the way, you know, he wasn't convicted of any serious crime. he got misdemeanors and so no jail time. So that made me really actually angry He got this slap on the wrist What happened First of all, the main witness that would have been is deceased. They're missing that element. And then We had the pandemic. there were like two or three changes of judges and they just wanted to wrap this cape case up and get him on something. and they did. they got a m a misdemeanor and In the civil case he ended up supposedly having to pay hundred thousand dollars, but I don't think he ever paid it. All right, can we talk about Steve So Steve as we mentioned, Steve is I guess the old friend who admitted finally He was there that night. He says he didn't see The murder happened, but he went along with Paul to cover it up And it took them a really long time to do the right thing. Yes, it did. And he would say that even years and years later When Paul was living in a different part of the state altogether, hundreds of miles away couldn't go to the police, in his opinion or his view at the time without Paul finding out immediately And somebody in Paul's circle of friends and acquaintances in that little town You know, make life very difficult indeed for Steve. He lived in fear that whole time, he claimed You know, given the sort of personality that he presented to us and the role that he played in that relationship, I can kind of see it We have an extra clip from your interview with Steve What do you think about him now? I don't think he has anymore minions that are working but that will any wait for him I don't think that he has Anyone left in this corner I think he's powerless at this point. I don't think he has the reach that he used to have. I'm sure he still has connections, but I don't I don't think that they would I don't think that they're a danger to me. is connections You don't get that little itch in your back anymore that somebody might do something to you someday No No, I'm I'm not afraid him anymore. interesteresting isn't it? onnce you decide not to be afraid of somebody Does it make you look back and say, Jesus, why would't I why didn't I have this attitude, you know twentywenty years earlier, twenty four years earlier You just look at the brute in the face and say, F you, I'm going to go tell the cops Right I was young and just I was stupid. I was a young, stupid kid The whole idea of him coming forward and him giving this, you know According to the jury, veryy believable will testimony solved the case, that found justice for Regina's family. But Regina's family are still not very happy with Steve Gates. They feel that he waited way too long They feel that their mother could have had justice in her lifetime. There's still some hard feelings there Yeah. I mean, The one thing I'll give, Steve is we are dealing with a killer Paul is a convicted killer. And a skilled manipulator who can be a skill fies manipulator and also, you know, this arson business You know, then his girlfriend shows up dead. We don't know how, but all these things I think I'd be afraid of Paul too I get it. I get it. and I'm just Frankly, I'm still surprised that Steve came forward to us when he was in testifying I the, you know, that Dave Newumont o the trial Um He didn't want any audio recorded. he didn't want any video. and under Ohio law, If the witness requests that, the judge can grant that request and he did that he ended up talking to Ky was I was kind of surprised And the reason Andrew, I think he is essentially you know, decided to come forward. I made a special trip out to Ohio to talk to him in person with his attorney Bernie Davis and I think He wanted the community to know. He suffered with this A away at him for twenty four years and that he sorry that he waited so long. And you know, his family And that region has gotten a lot of push backack from that community He still lives on the same farm that he did back in two thousand one. Yeah. can imagine going on with the rest of your life having now gone public finally with that story The feelings a great many people must have about it is you've still got to go to the grocery store every day. You're still going to to see other people around this small town every day And you know that they're Pro probablyably whispering behind your back. and it's for sure to do with. For sure we often hear from people from our stories right after they air through a text or a call. D you H, haveave you heard anything from Steve about the reaction to him doing this interview Yeah No, I've not no I think that probably It's a good thing that he has done. and I think it might be recognized I hope it is. because You know, even now you're not afraid of anybody, but you're afraid of how the public might feel about you, I'm sure. Yeah No, I I personally, the way it came out, I think it was a good thing I think he needed to get some of that out. And I'm sure a lot of people in that community were watching your dateline I think the fact that he Kith, you know, pushing him. I apologize to the family. Keith had to drag it out of him a bit, but said, I'm sorry, I didn't come forward earlier And you could tell he meant him Apologies go a long way, I think, they're big If they're sincere Um, you know, and I have to say, given the ride that we went on in this story and all the things that Paul was accused of doing It was a very satisfying arrest and verdict to see that, you know, to see that car on the video, you know, get pulled over and the jury Three hours That's. Three hours is like the I swear it is the magic number for juries with quick verdicts for guilty. It has to It seems to be to be there too, right Two hours plus lunch. Yeah. Exactly. They were like, yeah, you're done, you're done, Paul. Up next We have questions from our loyal viewers and listeners. on social media that we are going to answer. Okay Experience the World Cup at Jersey Fan Hub, New Jersey's home for soccer, music, and culture during the tournament. 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Feing stuck with rising ad costs and flat results, realize Tabula's advertising platform for businesses unlocks growth beyond search and social Theaboula's algorithm engages with high intent users on the open web, accelerating their path to conversion Powered by an AI model trained on over five hundred billion monthly signals, Realize delivers smarter prospecting with privacy safe targeting The result, higher conversion rates and scalable funnel at lower cost. To learn more, visit realalized d. com slash podcast Okay, now Keith and Tim are going to answer some of your questions and they also have comments from social media So these are coming from people who your' Ecellent program Friday night over the weekend Great Linda Belaglow Abrams says, how did he kill her? meaning Paul before he drove her into the water? I think I missed that Do you know exactly how Regina died Well, I guess we don't really know exactly how she died. because nobody saw it except the killer the You know,' the friend who eventually told the story of what he saw that evening didn't see that part of the activity What he saw was When he walked back to the car, he saw her crumpled in the passenger seat and Paul told him she's dead Although at that point she actually wasn't dead, but clearly he had done something to her and it wasn't clear exactly what Didn't they say that she had marks? on her body. I mean, I don't know if that's related to her, you know, right death or not, but which could marks on her body, which could have meant