Reflecting on a Life of Crime

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I just see Sante Kimes as the ultimate film fatale, seducing lovers, lawyers, husbands, her son. A whole new twist in a case chock full of them. This is someone who gets what she wants This story about a mother and son Grifter team, This was a diabolical duo. They seem like open and friendly and interesting. Yeah, I didn't think they were killers. We have a woman. Socialite goes missing. There were several people disappeared She had put a hit out on me. She wanted to be killed Why did she keep getting away with it who just had that power over I was mom's first protegey. I was supposed to be her coart in crime. Your mother instructed you to kill people. I only saw one road forward. They were called Mommy and Clyde, charming, cunning, ice cold criminals. Now a new chapter in the story they left a trail of bodies. I knew. I was my dad I'm Lester Holt, and this is Dateline Here's Keith Morrison with The Devil War White It was evening when they found her, found her prone in her cell at the Bedford Hills Correctal Facility in New York A guard raised the alarm and they rushed her to a nearby hospital. But it was too late Her enlarged heart was so badly damaged it could not go on beating. She was seventy nine when she died sixteen years past the outrages, the mayhem The murders And the fabulous, fierce, frightening madness That was the woman named Sante Kyes. Are you more comfortable now? Yes, because she's dead And that was that was the deciding fact. She had to be dead. She had to be dead. There are many kinds of villains It is the story of a mother and two sons at all kinds of trouble Is it fair for me to say that though you knew your mother was a terrible person You loved her as intensely as a son can love a mother. There's probably not another son on this planet who loved his mother as much as I loved mine As we say, This is about a mother and two sons The other now speaking out his first recorded interview in decades When your mother died, was that very difficult for you It hurt like hell. There's nothing I can do without it. look free So much history Dark comic suggest plain dark. But we can begin Because why not begin here in a celebration July fourth, nineteen ninety eight Millions gathered in New York City to watch the nation's biggest fireworks spectacular A just off Manhattan's Millionaire's row, a smaller crowd gathered for a different kind of spectacular A dinner party at a mansion on East sixty fifth Street The hostess was an eighty two year old widow named Irene Silverman She's vibration. She's a lot of fun Fashion designer Zane Ty was a close friend frequent parking guest. She know how to twubve. A great party in doing her hydayays and she had the harder go friend Janice Herbert also loved Irene's company Delightful Funny I adored her. someomeone described her as an auntie maim and that's exactly what she was. It was absolutely fabulous. Irene Silverman had quite literally danced her away from poverty Dream Job as a ballet dancer at Radio City Music Hall And by the time of our story She was a healthy, wealthy widow with a fine big townhouse in New York's most expensive neighborhood It was for companionship as much as anything. that Irene rented rooms in her mansion Her tenants included some A list celebrities Daniel D. Lewis Lenny Kravitz. And Saka Kan She lived by herself. She ran not just for fun, to also keep herself company The day after Irene's Bash, july fifth. was as quiet as a country church on a Monday morning at the NYBD's nineteenth precinct B Detective Tom Hoagan was working a shift Tell me about july fifth You were on duty? What was it what was that like? Yeah, the city was empty th July weekend. So we expected a slow day Then we received a call Fr a patrol officer. I picked up the phone. We have a woman. elderly woman that is missing. her staff reported her missing The missing elderly woman was Irene Silverman I was the junior detective I just had gotten promoted in January Okay. So the other two guys were pretty senior to me And they said, Well, kid, this is yours because no one really wants a missing person case. It's very tedious work. With that in mind Detective Hogeim drove to the upper East side to the six story townhouse A Stone throw from Central Park this townhouse w What was that like? was actually beautiful. Beautiful artwork, beautiful furniture. The night before she disappeared, she had a great party, American flags, hats, you know, the whole bit. She was living the grand life that wom Absolutely. one hundred percent The staff last saw Irene inside her house that morning shortly before noon She appeared to have laughed without telling anyone Not what she would ever do everver which is why they reported her missing. We did the preliminary investigation, searched the townhouse, searched the surrounding areas, looked for video cameras, interviewed neighbors But no sign of Irene And curiously two other people seem to have vanished T. We couldn't find one of the staff members. When we went up to his apartment, he wasn't there. So that was a little suspicious The other missing person was a young man who was renting a room on the first floor And We couldn't find the person in one B. He disappeared the same time she did you know raaised our suspicion, of course, yes though not alarmingly Yet But then, outside near the front entrance they found blood Tom Hoigam's missing person case suddenly became urgent. When you get a person on the upper East side like Irene Silverman, it becomes very special. The whole city takes an interest Pretty soon the whole country would take an interest Because the case of the missing social lightite was about to take an unexpected turn Int something Diabolicical Ever had any other case anything like this in your career? Not even close What would follow and what came before is a story when all told Prime's astonishing in scale and scope Next thing I know, he's around my back with his arm across my neck Stretching from New York to L.A A transient found David Castden's body stuffed into a dumpster Hawaii to the Caribbean and at the center of it all crriminal mastermind. The likes of which we won't see again withith any luck When she looked at you, she could look into your soul. She is the most evil . that I've ever met. How do you tell the story not be over the top? She was over the top They looked everywhere. That fourourth of July weekend in New York set the canes sniffing through her mansion top to bottom Try as they might, they could not find Irene Silverman boss who is running the investigation dubbed us the Silver Task Force. Bea we all had an affection for Irene because it could have been our grandmother could have been our mother Irene's friends, like fashion designer Zang Toy We're worried sick It was getting late, everybody was worried. My first thought was that I was just praying. I was hoping that they would p she was kidnapped. Someone tried to ask for ransom But no ransom note appeared If someone had taken her Must have been a thief too. becausecause ten thousand in cash she kept in the townhouse vanished with her Suspicion landed first on that missing staff member Detective Hoigum learned he was a longtim employee with access to Irene's financial records boarded a flight to Atlanta Shortly after she banished he had gone away. but Once we got him and bought him in, we eliminated him pretty quickly He was innocent just like the rest of Irene's staff When we went through the motions of interviewing him and getting their alibis, there wasn't anyone on the staff The detectives also talked to Irene's tenants, of course, and all were quickly accounted for an alibide Except for that young guy from the room on the first floor. The staff told us that there was a person staying in apartment one B who Irene thought was very suspicious since she had rented the apartment to him His name was Manny Garin. He'd arrived two weeks earlier He didn't have a reference or an ID, but He seemed nice and he gave her six thousand in cash up front She just let him in She let her guard down. she never did that Her friend Janice said Irene regretted that decision right away He was very secretive. She felt that something was wrong. And she was worried about it. She was smart enough to write everything down detail about this guy's suspicious behavior What kind of behaviors? When there was a conversation in the lobby of the townhouse, she would see his feet underneath the door or the shadow of his feet like he was eavesdropping And when he came into the house into the townhouse, he would avoid the cameras walk on the sides of the walls things like that to stay out a camera view. And she described them, you know, male white, You know, five, nine, about one hundred and eighty pounds. She was a sharp woman, man This Manny Garin Irene's longtime caregiver, Marta Rivera said he refused to let housekeepers inside his room to clean. And she thought she knew why. There was a woman in the apartment with him Noobody know who she was. because this is the reason they let nobody go inside so they don't see her An unknown woman in there That was it for Irene She told friends she wanted Manny Garin to leave She was going to evict him you know, right around the time she disappeared. So police searched the room Annie Garin had been renting. We found all kinds of things, Garbage bags, a roll of duct tape on The shower curtain rings, but no shower curtain Things like that, which raised our suspicion On Monday night, july sixth Hova Gim's unit asked the public for help, to finded Irene Silverman and her suspicious missing tenant We posted pictures of Irene Silverman. We had a sketch done of Manny Garin We had a news conference where we posted a sketch The next day, Hoveragim got a call someomeone had recognized Manny Garin from the police sketch. It wasn't a member of the public But another of New York's finest from a different department of the city's sprawling police organization No doubt in my mind, that was him Ed Murray was a detective working for the NYPD's fugitive task Force When he saw the sketch of Manny Garin He said he knew right away who it was and it wasn't Anny Garin I see that Picter And it's exactly composive sketch of Kenny Kimmes. Kenny Kimmes Murray was certain the man in the sketch was actually a car thief named Kenny Kyimmes, who he'd taken into custody just a few hours after Irene Silverman disappeared. Kimes had been arrested with his mother Sante for writing a bad check for a Lincoln town car back in Utah. An unusual pair, those two It was something that I just didn't think it was like mother and son She was the boss and he was Well, she was. She definite without a doubt, she was So one department talked to the other Pretty soon Detective Hoigam was showing Kenny Kimes booking photo to Irene's employees. And then when we did the photo array of Kenny the staff picked him out, saying, yeah, that's Many Yar. In that moment There was no way, of course, for Detective Hoigim to fathom just who he was dealing with Where this Kenny Kymes and his mother Sante had already been they had already done Want to make your home everyone's favorite summer destination? Shop Etsy for hosting essentials like handmade outdoor furniture for your backyard guests, custom drinkware for your signature cocktails, and of course some festive seasonal decor. No matter how big the invite list is, you'll be all set for the moments that make summer special. Celebrate summer parties with original items from small shops on Etsy celebrate being human Brought to you by a Capital One Savor card With Savver, you earn an unlimited three percent cashback on dining, entertainment at the grocery stores. That's unlimited cashback on ordering takeout from home Or unlimited cashback on tickets to concerts and games Grab a bite, grab a seat and earned unlimited three percent cash back with a saver card Capital one, what's in your wallet terms supply, see capital onene. com for details Granger knows, when you're a procurement manager for an office park You're not managing one building, you're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners Light's about to fail, filters ready to clog, HVack on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind Count on Granger for quality products, easy reordering, and twenty four seven support Call one eight hundred Granger, clickranger. com or just stop by Granger. For the ones who get it done Almost forty eight hours after Irene Silverman disappeared NYPD detectives found her missing tenant, Menny Garin already in custody but he'd been arrested under a different name his real one Kenny Cimes He was locked up alongside his mother, Sante And she, they learned at a wrap sheet miles long Reaching back decades before her son, Kenny was born. You know, we had some background on his mother on Sante at that point. So I use that against him like look, we know your mother put you up to this. We know she's been arrested before and that she's manipulative and she's manipulating you It didn't work Keddy Cymes gave away nothing So who were these people? Mother and son, car thieves maybe killers. And what might they have done with innocent elderly Irene In a New York minute, those questions became a huge national story. Hope is fading tonight at the suspect in her disappearance A missing person who vanished from her million dollar home when they first got arrested It is no exaggeration within the first ten days I had a hundred news agencies attack my office looking for me. You guys, NBC, ABC Kent Walker, that first born son, Kenny's older brother, the one we told you about back at the beginning. Kent had the answers. someome of them, anyway. That's my mother She had a force. It was a force we were reacton with Oh yes Kent's mother, Sante Kimes was a woman of many names and many schemes Everybody gorgeous Terrible bit of her She was born in nineteen thirty four Her birth name was Sante een she switched it to Sandy and then back again. She changed her name frequently from then on Changed her story often too The original story was that she was born in Oklahoma U was one of the Okies. She ended up in Hollywood Tue Maybe Maybe not Asante told it, her father abandoned the family. Mom was on the streets for the most part, what mom said. Supposedly, her mother was a prostitute. We'll later find out that's not the case Be she made up a story Oh the whole my mother's entire life' made up. You know, you get that one little German truth. She always start out with that colonel that you can believe that's probably honest But as Kent learned as a little boy, His single mom knew how to survive no matter how straitened their circumstances Our refrigerator up until that point was peanut butter and tortillas and cheese. That was it. I was lucky if it was some milk in there As for the way, Sante survived, that seemed normal to young Kent. She certainly didn't hide it from him She was a credit card thief, a shoplifter, a check kiter Kent became her very handy and willing assistant with some careful motherly schooling I was small, I fit through windows. I knew how to be a decoy, I knew how to make attention happ. And people looked at me and said to her, well, she did her thing. She was training me how to do that And somehow Sante got away with it again and again And young Kent looked at her with a kind of awe She didn't bow down to anyone Out in the world, out in public, people noticed Sante And she liked it I think the name of the restaurant was a cock and bull. It was in Hollywood. I don't know if I remember were. Yeah. We were sitting at the bar. And Gal came up to her and asked her for a autograph My Mom sed, Elizabeth H Elizabeth Taylor. Elizabeth Taylor. She looked that much like Elizabeth Taylor, sometimes. She didn't have the eyes, but she had the charisma that looks, the cheeks, the mouth Then pure corrupt ambition Sante's charisma changed their lives for good The truth is mom was on a hunt for a millionaire In nineteen seventy, Sante even took a job at something called Palm Springs Millionaire Magazine and was thereby able to interview a man named Kenneth Kimmes A millionaire twenty times over hisis fortune made in real estate, casinos, motels, and mansions. Sante turned on her charm, and Kenneth was mitten A year later, they returned from a trip to Mexico, declared they were married just like that Our lives was beyond the American dream I mean, we lived in five different ocean frront properties in Hawaii. We had an ocean frront estate in the Bahamas. We had a golf course home in Las Vegas They were all home You know, it was almost embarrassing Four years later, nineteen seventy five, Kenny Junior was born. Now Sante rnt a full house. Not a nurturing one She had rules the sort no one would dare defy No one answers the phone and no one answers the door. Do you got that And I just went, oh yeah, I got that It was the late nineteen seventies twentyw years or so before the unfortunate events at Irene Silverman's place Sante, Kenneth, Kent, and now Little Kenny Jror, all living the lush life fancy clothes and luxury cars and villas full of servants in the house in Hawaii We had a secret storage spot in the master bedroom. She had thirty mink coats. I've never seen anyone wear a me coat in Hawai I don't know if you have not Sante at last, seemed to have the life she wanted. She always called me my darling Rhonda. Rhonda Martin was Kent's high school girlfriend and spent lots of time with the family in their seaside mansion Satete was like a dream, said Rhonda. A lovely dream And she would hug me and my son has such a beautiful girlfriend. and she would just lavish me with love. She always wore white Mumos at home, pants suits And just beautiful. And she always had Her hair perfect I mean, it was always perfect. Her eyes. bllack like her pupils, they were piercing When she looked at you, she could look into your soul And she knew exactly what she wanted Make sure everyone else did too. So now that she was rich, did Sante Kimmes change her ways, renounce her compulsion to lie and steal Oh no Not at all And her compliant husband, Ken Sr. seem to love it idn't he participate willingly in her crimes? He didn't mind not having to pay for dresses. He didn't mind not having to pay for Cadillac Baritz El Dorados in our driveway He fell in love with getting away with it So from practically the moment they met Ken played along evenven with some of Sante's wackier schemes Like an idea to make money from the nineteen seventy six bicentennial Sante used her considerable charm to cozy up to an official of the United Nations She got an endorsement where Ken was actually named an honorary bicentennial ambassador Well, that's why you need to get mom It meant nothing, really But Sante and Kenneth went swanning around like very important people. using the title to flog a collection of bicentennial memorabilia And with an extra lie or two the fake ambassador and his wife. crashed a reception at Blair House in Washington shhook hands with Vice President Ford. Secret Service let them right through and then they said, Well, who are you The weird stunt was exposed in the Washington Post just a hiccup forante DC again A few years later, It was late and this couple came through the door. they They were so distinctive you couldn't miss them Winter, nineteen eighty Rina Beeache was enjoying a nightcap at a Washington DC bar Canon Sante swept in Ra watched as Sante Wearing a mink coat herself. another one right from another table She was just pulling her own coat up over it And she stood up and sauntered out of the place The DC Caper didn't work out so well Sante was charged with grand and petty larceny But then she ditched her own trial Sply skipped out of court and went on as ever That's who she was. Why did she do this ' that's what she was Sante's ambitions only seem to get bigger like what she did with her own beautiful beachfront home in Hawaii No one was home when the port lock house burned yesterday. burned it to the ground to collect the insurance money But she was much too clever to actually do it herself My father was involved in a Arson in Honolulu This is Ken Homgren his father Elmer Was a down on his luck attorney who got roped into it somehow Did they tell him or ask him to set fire to the Kimes House in Holulu I assume the Kimes wanted him to do it You know, is for the Kimes is gain If anyone knew how persuasive Sante could be It was Kent She knew the words to you, She knew the emotions to put ono you. And sometimes she did it in positive ways with love and affection. and she also learn how to scare the hell on you Like when Kent was twelve and still his mother's little help her And one day, on his own He stole a surfboard and got busted. I thoughts thought I was going to go to jail So Kent tried his best to go straight Maybe the difference between you and your mother is If you get it if you get caught stealing a surfboard. scares you straight. If she get caught steaming a surfboard, it's encouragement for the next time. She got mad because they got caught. And she tried to T me She actually took me to where I got caught and she told me how I should have done it. so I wouldn't have got caught So Sante did nurture in a way in the criminal way And she wasn't about to let anyone get between her and her sons. A lieutenant from Hawaii five showed up at my house. That liutenant told me, if you contact him, she'll find you And she will kill you Orn the outside, Kent lived what seemed to be a normal teenager's life High school boards Girlfriend Rhonda We loved spending time with Sante too. Till the day I was over there and all of a sudden the doorbell rang and I jumped up to answer it She was in the kitchen And I swear to you, she flew over the counter Before I got to the door, she got right up in my face and she pulled me I mean, I was this close to her face. It was so close. I could feel her breath And she goes, there are two rules in this house No one answers the phone and no one answers the door. Do you got that I just went, Ohh yeah, I got that This is the first time you saw anything other than the very first time, this is a pailor person. Exactly. I had never seen that until that day And that freaked me out. That day was a turning point for Rhonda And can't started talking to me about things his mom would have him do. you know, like she said, yeah, you know, he was my mom You know, she likes to steal stuff and she likes me to help her out. like I have to break into people's houses and climb in their windows digging in there. She I'd like to hear. I said, you know, if you get caught doing that, you could go to jail Rhonda got through to Kent He refused to help his mom steal anymore Asante was furious Ronda. She called my mom one day and said, Y daughter has got to stay away from my son. I've had it with her. Well then, about that same time, A lieutenant from Hawaii F z showed up at my house and knocked on the door and told my mom and dad that she had put a head out on me. That lieutenant told me, don't stick your head up Because if you contact him, she'll find you and she will kill you And he thought that I just left because He thought that I just, you know, like an airhead kid Well, I don't love you anymore, but that wasn't true So Ronda was gone Kent was going straight After he graduated from high school, Kent left home and later joined the army When I left for the Army It was tough. I mean, I will say I have to be honest with myself now I ran away.. That's when mom was her worst But then with Kent out of the house Sante turned to his half brother, Kenny Maybe he would make a better partner in crime I am my mother's biggest disappointment I was the one Who was supposed to be Kenny Kent knew his mother loved Kenny a little bit differently He was the prince. He was tutored, never got spanked. He was treated as a golden childout He was so lonely. He had no friends. He had a tutor. and Kent and I would take him to go get ice cream, but she hardly would ever let us take him anywhere. We had to like sneak him off. He had a very unusual upbring here, brother. to help you He didn't have a chance Not with his mother. No Take, for example, a little problem she had with the household staff. At first, Sante's maids were treated well, said Kent Like members of the family, really Not for long The anger is like a warm bath sometimes It's just like everything else in her life, elevated, elevated, elevated. And so the maids then became The enemy of the house The women complained to law enforcement And in a lawsuit John Dotie is a private detective who's investigated Sante's background Evidently, she would lock the maids in their rooms. They were under constant watch, and I believe she attacked one of them with the hot iron ones Here she is forced to sit for a deposition about the allegations. I'm very unhappy with having to give any testimony to you It was all a fabrication, said Sante but I've never yelled loudly and I have certainly never Physically. Touch Danel She denied it all No, that is not correct. That was a total lie. Making herself into the victim. I have been through an intolerable nightmare. The law intervened laate a criminal charge that hadn't been used for a very, very long time. Kenneth and Santi Kimes were indicted this past summer on charges of violating immigration and anti slavery laws Ken Sr accepted a plea deal on the criminal charges, but Sante took her case to trial and was convicted. She spent three years in federal prison And Kent came back around to help his stepfather and brother. I was kind of a surrogate father to Kennney in a way And then Mom returned and things went back to normal, if such a word could be used to the life of Sante Kimes Kent got married, started his own family made Sante a grandmother S how give a smile, Jeez. That's This decade before the events on that july fourth weekend in New York When Irene Silverman disappeared And though Kent tried to put some distance between his old life and his new one Here he is running the video camera on a family vacation. Don' take me when. They're at the Kimes Beachfront estate in the Bahamas An address that will come into play. a little later in our story. Last day here been a great vacation. Thanks for roing guys Just a few months after that island vacation, in nineteen ninety four, Kent got a call from his mom My mom's hysterical. It won't fix ' them, they won't fix them. they won't fix ' them. And I had, at the time, I'm not putting two and two together, and she hangs up And then it dawns on him His mother was telling him that Ken Sr., his stepfather and died A after Sute seemed unhinged Even more than usual because it turned out they'd blown through most of Ken's fortune when he was alive And now that he was dead All that was left were a few properties and some cash tucked away in offshore accounts. Mom didn't have any checkbooks. She had no accounts. She had nothing Now she was scrambling for money. The frenzy of it all spooked Kent He eventually stopped taking her calls. I had made a break for Ma Kady. We were restrained and I is small. Kent had no idea then that he had timed his exit perfectly It was now just a year before that New York City summer when Irene Silverman disappeared Who knew what a desperate mother and son were capable of? togetherogether Looking to scale your outcomes beyond search and social Realize is Tabula's AI powered performance platform, driving incremental growth by engaging high intent users across a global network of six hundred million daily active users on premium websites. Reach and convert your audience on premium websites and placements where your customers actually spend their time. For more information and to create your account today, go to realize dot com slash podcast. In the US, there's a break in every twenty six seconds, but when intruders step near, simply safe homeome security steps up. Stop. This is simply safe. Police are on the way Using AI alerts, U.S. based live agents help deter break ins. Simply safe, no long term contracts. Save fifty percent on your new system with professional monitoring at simppllysafe d. com slash SXM or with promo code SXM. Outdoor deterce requires a simply safe, active guuard outdoor protection plan starting at for nine month.isit simplafeot com slash licenses for alarm license information. Tennesy two zero one two Monday AI agents took over my work And I absolutely love it. Chasing deadlines, writing status reports, updating stakeholders. agents handle the daily grind now. They live inside Mondayot comot so they see the full picture, my work, my team, the whole company. And I don't have to worry about the data. It's safe, whichich means I'm free to focus on the big stuff, knowing everything runs smoothly in the background It's completely shifted the way we work. Create your own AI agent in minutes on Monday. com It was the spring of nineteen ninety eight Four months before Irene Silverman disappeared in New York City And Kent Walker was living in Las Vegas. He had done the hard part, cut off his mother a little brother who was now twenty three, for good And now Right, I missed the good stuff. It was hard, you know, but I was doing okay Kant had no idea where Kenny and Sante were or that they had moved on themselves. In fact, they were in Los Angeles now. had rented a wing of a house in affluent Rntwood Looking for trouble, maybe I was working homicide the Los Angeles Police Department Detective Bill Cox was also unaware the crimes that arrived in the city of Angels. In fact, he had never heard of them, not yet, anyway When he caught a curious case about fifteen miles down the freeway from Brentwood Something body in a dumpster in the back alley near LAX. There was a homeless man walking down the alley looking through the garbage cans. ig dumpsters Yeah Dug thre him through the trash and he there wass a big green trash bag in there. and saw that there was a body in there The body in the dumpster was a male, middle aged, with a single bullet hole in the back of his head. It was identified quickly My the coroner's office has being David Castden David Castden He seemed like a regular sort of guy, sixty three years old, businessman He lived alone up in the valley, thirty miles from the dumpster where he ended up My partner and I went over to the house The first thing that we went into his bedroom we saw that the bed had was turned down And then when we went into the living room area, you look in the carpet and the carpet was just perfect In fact, the whole house was just about pristine. David's daughter told them she'd been there two nights previous, and she was sure they saw someone lurking outside There was a car parked in front of the house and they got very nervous about it. and I think the car slowly drove off when they looked out there And that wasn't the only time, said the daughter For weeks, somebody had been harassing David Castden, calling, stopping by She knew there was some kind of business dispute, something about a real estate transaction gone bad So she gave the detectives a name. She's the one that brought up right away about Sante Kimes Yes That's Aante Kimes A little digging revveal of the connection Kazden had been a long time friend and sometimes business partner to both Sante and Ken Sr. And years earlier, he had done them a small favor Ken Sr trying to dodge legal bills and hide his assets asked Kusden to put his name on the deed to one of their properties mansion on Jeronya Way in Las Vegas David, you know, reluctantly, I guess just said, yeah Go ahead, you know, but not for too long. And so they did it and And about six months later, from what I understand, he had asked if, you know,, you know, can you guys take me off of the thing? And he had talked to Sean Teas, Ken was dead By this time and said, you know, take me off the thing. And she goes, Oh yes, dear, we'll do all this But Sante Didn't do that Instead, without telling Kazen, she came up with a scheme to turn a problem into a money making solution For her, at least She went down to a bank. Thisr. Kymes did, and she's the one that the bank into taking a loan out of Mr. Kazin, I don't know how she did it. I don't know how the bank allowed her to do it. Sante got ready to walk away with two hundred eighty thousand and cast them was on the hook for it all And then he discovers He's got to pay back all this money. Yeah, he gets this thing in the mail with three hundred and sixty payments and you owe this much money every month and he was just flabbergasted. And so he goes through the roof And basically calls Chante and says, what are you doing? you know and leaves a message for her and she calls him back and she says, you know, Asking questions about the loan Something to the effect won't be good for your health Cazden ignored the warning. bank launched an investigation. And then what do you know A suspicious fire destroyed that Vegas mansion And Sante claiming the house was hers tried to collect the insurance H constantly How am I going to get the next dollar? It was obvious to detectives that Sante Kimes needed to be questioned about the murder of David Cazden And they learned that she and her son were staying in that Brentwood house My partner and I went up to the house that night J just miss them by hours. They had left LA and Sante's preferred mode of transport A Lincoln town car PI Doti traced it Dealership in Utah where Sante bought it sort of And she'd trade in her old car, older Lincoln, and then give the guy a check for the difference. But the check never cleared Daler reported the car stolen And the local sheriff issued warrants for Sante and Kenny, wanted for Grand Theft auto just what the LAPD needed to amp up their search, something concrete to hold Santy and Kenny on if only they could find them For months, detectives ran down tips from people who knew them In Los Angeles, in Las Vegas in You name it In every place we went, we would miss him just by Days sometimes a day, sometimes just hours They were constantly moving. Did she know you were on their tail? Well, I think so The mother and the son in that Lincoln were in the wind And across the country in New York that wealthy widow, Irene Silverman was still living her fine life on the upper East Side, nothing to worry about But the fourourth of July is right around the corner And so was a confrontation on a busy street in midtown Manhattan One of the agents grabbed Santa, took her bag. I saw there were like five agents struggling with Kennh. Couldn't take him down. Couldn't take him down Mother and son, suspects in a years long crime spree that included Two murders, at least. How did it ever get this far Kenny Kimes will tell us There's a lot of chaos in my youth I love my parents, but there's a lot of complexity there It was the beginning of summer now. And LAPD detective Bill Cox had a pretty good idea what happened to David Casten the guy who wound up in the dumpster near the airport knew his suspects too. But finding them was quite another matter Sante and Kenny were just gone And then The newhing paid off Detective Cox landed an informant A guy who'd done odd jobs for Sante in LA in Las Vegas, named Stan Patterson Dan became basically our eyes and ears because He said Sante would call him once in a while So we told them, Hey, next time she calls you Let us know. Then, on july third, just before the holiday weekend, the detective's phone rang It was Stan He says that Times is You in New York And they or getting an apartment And they wanted me to manage it. M, my my. And to bring a gun with me when I when I come out there to New York Stan, the informant agreed to go to New York and help lead police D Sante and Kenny We contact NYPD. and so we told them that Stan was on an airplane coming out there and could they follow him And we needed the Kses if they found them to arrest them. Arest them for that outstanding car theft warrant whichich is how Detective Ed Murray of the NYBD Fugitive Task Force got involved he was part of a sting operation Using Stan, the informant as Bait When Stanley arrived, he was wearing a bulletproof vest. Okay Was he booked? He was scared. He did tell me that He was afraid of Kenny and Santi and that They're there to kill them Stan arranged a meeting with Sanda and Kenny at the Hilton Hotel in midtown Manhattan Outside the hotel, there happened to be a street fair at a huge bustling crowd There was a lot of pedestrian traffic going on. and you know what it kind of helped during our surveillance the hotel, how they show up Well, we waited About eight hours. Good Lord At around five PM, they decided to call it a day Sadee and Kenny were clearly no shows We're standing in the lobby the hotel and We're trying to come up with a plan. And all of a sudden I hear this screeching woman yell out, Stanley It was Sante She walked through that hotel lobby as if she owned the place And she comes over to Stanley. She embraces Stanley. Kenny was running late So Sante and Stan. Grab a drink Took a walk on sixth Avenue And then Kenny arrives. Time to move in One of the agents grabbed Santa, took her bag. I saw there were like five agents struggling with Kennet I couldn't them down. couldn't take themem down. And then we got them down. I searched and it And he had a set of brass knuckles He had a knife on him as we were struggling with him He he urinated in his pants. wet his pants. Finally subdued and cuffed, Kenny and Sante were driven downtown for questioning. Ed Murray rode up front, holding Sante's bag. What was in the bag What was in the bag was A lot of cash. I said to my partner and Santi is in the back seats of the car I say, there's got to be about ten thousand dollars in cash in here. Santy responds now She responds, Oh, well You can't come to Manhattan on vacation without less than ten thousand dollars Murray situated the odd pair in that Manhattan jail And the next day The police unit looking for Irene Silverman, the millionaire widow, missing from her swanky Eastside townhouse, held their press conference Irene Silverman was in good health, both physically and mentally is when You may recall, police presented that sketch of Silverman's missing tenant Manny Garren. And soon after Murray recognized that man as the car thief he had just arrested Kenny Cimes And by then, Murray had made another incriminating discovery. One that tied the crimes directly to the missing widow they had in their possession Ientification belonging to Irene Silvver. Inside Sante's purse, along with a big wat of cash Irene's passport And just like that, two completely separate investigations suddenly merged into one very big and very strange case. We knew we were looking at a homicide investigation at that point TwissN turns up plenty today in the disappearance of eighty two year old Irene Silverman. Police are not sure where this investigation is heading It turned out the investigation was headed to New Jersey because The informant Stan Patterson told police that when Sante and Kenny were late for that meeting of the Hilton Hotel It was because they were stuck in traffic in New Jersey We got the phone numbers from every dumpster that we saw to find out where they dumped their garbage. Did any part of you think that she might still be alive Not me personally no Hoveragam was convinced they'd been busy dumping Irene Silverman's body that morning Returning to New York just in time to be arrested on that unrelated car theft charge That arrest came just hours after Irene Silverman last was seen Impossible not to wonder If that out of state warrant had arrived just a few hours earlier With Irene Silverman's life ared Hope is fading tonight that Irene Silverman will ever be found alive At Sante Cimes now Cage with son Kenny in a downtown jail was as confident as ever. and her charm offensive. was just getting started She fluffed her hair. She tilted her head, She battered her eyes this onslaught of Wirtatious energy Want to make your home everyone's favorite summer destination? Sha Betsy for hosting essentials like outdoor furniture for your backyard guests. 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Save fifty percent on your new system with professional monitoring at simplyafe dot com slash SXM or promo code SXM der requires sim safe,ardo protion, starting forty nine ath.isit safotl lens for al lense information.ennsee zero one two Sante Kimmes is the is a walking contradiction It was more than two decades ago when I met Sante Kaime's firstborn son Kent Walker The kid apprentice who went straight Kent saaw it all, lived it all big arrest in New York City That he learned about from the news And I have no doubt There iss no doub They were guilty I didn't want that I wanted so much for them not to be guilty of this But I just I had to be honest with myself. What was it that made you about this that made you so sure Well, things have gone terribly wrong, and I' become fearful of them. Um fe feful enough where I didn't want to be around them and I didn't want them around me because I knew Nor to the scope of this, but I knew they were heading for a fall I should have seen it coming, I didn't We always thought they' just to gams, the cons, you know shoplifting. shoplifting, and I'm not condoning that. I mean, that's bad stuff. Don't get me wrong, but there's a far cry from stealing some lipstick or picking up a stereo and killing someone. Investigators too were quite sure that Kenny and Sante Kimes were behind Irene's sudden disappearance. They were certain they had a murder case on their hands They just had one big problem. They could not find Irene's body and proving murder would be quite difficult And then they recovered that stolen Lincoln. It was a gold mine There was a lot of things in that car. Cothes, wigs, a gun, an empty taser box And perhaps most damaging of all A stack of Sante notes I think she had fifteen notebooks of all kinds of things. Irene's movements. Then she'd write like a laundry list, like shower curtain handandcuffs, stun gun. From the notebooks, it was obvious, Sante and Kenny targeted Irene for her wealth plotted to steal her identity and drain her fortune The big prize was that incredibly valuable townhouse. Not to mention the apartments inside that rented for six thousand a month. That's why they asked Stan to come and join them in New York Unaware, he was now an informant Kenny and Santy, they had the They knew what they were going to do. with sadly with Irene Silverman. They were going to use Stanley Patterson. as a person that was supposed to maintain building that Irene Silverman own. They found out that Irene owned the building outright. There was no mortgage left on it. She owned it U So that put the scheme in motion. Then they, you know, they look for a notary They did their research, I guess, as far as the deed, obtaining a deed and things like that On december sixteenth, Sante and Kenny Kimmes were charged with murdering Irene Silverman They would remain behind bars to await trial But Sante was by no means ready to admit defeat Dpper no. I think Salante is one of the most fascinating people I've ever met Back in nineteen ninety eight, CC McNair was a private investigator in New York City Sante had assembled a legal team to fight every one of the charges against her and CC was brought in to help in their first meeting Cisi saw that Jail had not dimmed Sante one bit She came down a long hallway. She's weearing sort of a Gay track suit Her hair was black, thick black. eyebrows And you could see that she really was a beautiful woman I was there with Matthew Wiseman, who was one of the four lawyers. And Matthew Wiseman was immediately the focus of her attention She fluffed her hair tilted her head, she battered her eyes. this onslaught of Ftatious energy Sante insisted through her lawyers that she and her Kenny were as innocent as newborn babes. Let's just say with reference to Miss. Silverman, they deny categorically allg deny. We are being franked got to help us. Sante was never anything less than self assured absolutely certain of what she was saying. and this is someone who gets what she wants because I watched her and she manipulated me. She would appeal to me as the only other woman on the case. The men just don't G it. You get it. You're going to save me and my darling chiny from the greatest injustice in History of the United States The story just kept getting bigger and leads popping up from all the places Sante had left an impression Oh, and of course, Sante had a plan She and Kenny were going to play offense National TV Oh boy It just feels a little unnatural to anyone on the outside By the time Kenny and Sante Kimmes were charged with murder, they had become household names The mother and son made headlines not just in New York City, but Around the whole world I'm T watchatch Ianging in the Bahamas, following the trail of Kenneth and Sante Kimes Trail led repors to Douglas Hannah The lead investigator at the Royal Bahamas Police Force We have a missing man here and it appears that this woman has been surrounded by missing plons Hannah knew all about Santay and Kenny Cimmes, because Two years earlier They were the last people seen with a man named Sayad Bilal Ahmed. man missing ever since Mr. Ahammed flew to the Bahamas. to investigate irregularities. Ken Senir's accounts John Marquis was a journalist in the Bahamas. And he learned about Sante's desperate scramble for money After Ken Sr died Chante had been drawing money from the accounts To quickly get at whatever was left of Ken's fortune, Sante pretended he was still alive and forgeed documents to withdraw money from Ken's offshore Caribbean accounts There was just one problem. Ahmed A bank auditor. was paying attention and he has to talk to Sante Mr. Ahmed was anticipating a fairly conciliatory meeting which was aimed primarily at just sorting the matter out and finding out what was going on Ahmed met with Sante and Kenny over dinner And when the sun came up the next day The phone rang at the Royal Bahamas Police Force Vomit was nowhere to be found But Neither was Sante We tried to find her to try to find out. b what the link was all about? But the police chief had no idea where she was until those New York booking photos made international headlines So now, Sante and Kenny were suspects in not one or two. but perhaps three murder investigations But from her jail cell, Sante was determined She continued to proclaim her innocence and that They were framed. And they didn't do it quietly She and Kenny started talking to reporters includluding a sit down interview with sixty minutes I was married to a wonderful man. He was a big old Irishman. Kandy looks a lot like him There was the interview on sixty minutes Everybody was talking about it There they were, mother and son, accused murderers Looking a little too Intimate Sante and Kenny were sitting way too close together and they were holding hands. and didn't look exactly normal for a mother and son to be sitting that close. or holding hands And there was the gushing about how beautiful this mother was. I think she's a beautiful person spiritually and intellectually and then physically What was going on here exactly Kent saw that TV interview too, of course saw the very public intimacy It was the sixty minutes interview, they're holding their hands and stuff like that. The whole incest thing it was weird out It just I mean, and it' catnip, you know. I don't believe it. It's not because I don't want to believe it. I know it didn't happen. And I will say this, their relationship was not normal It was short as sexual. Let's put it that way. I mean, was it intimate? I'm sure it was intimate, but I don't think it was anything sexual I asked her about it. And she said Oh h, how could anybody ever say something like that? I only held Kenny to my breast when he was a baby to keep him warm It's disgusting. Kenny denied it too And Cisi said she believed Sante to a point But maybe there is such a thing as an emotional incest where they're so close that just feels a little unnatural to anyone on the outside Ronda was inside for a while. Sow Sante try to groom Kent. and then succeed with Keny all of his grooming years He was completely under her. She never let him go She took him everywhere. Yes, and this whole so called incestuous thing, whether it happened or not, she it didn't really matter. It was they were always like that. I don't I have no, I can't say that any of that happened because I never saw it. Yeah. You know, I'm not saying it didn't and but I never saw It happened like that, but I mean, it's the codependency that matter. Yes, yes. He was a victim because he never had had any influence from anyone else. So a new question now Kenny was behind bars, separated from his mother for the first time in years What would Sante's son do left to his own devices Next thing I know, he's around my back with his arm across my neck And he did say to me, this is a hostage situation. Looking to scale your outcomes beyond search and social realalize is Tabula's AI powered performance platform, driving incremental growth by engaging high intent users across a global network of six hundred million daily active users on premium websites. Reach and convert your audience on premium websites and placements where your customers actually spend their time. For more information and to create your account today, go to realize dot com slash podcast. In the US, there's a break in every twenty six seconds, but when intruders step near, simply safe homeome security steps up. Stop. This is simply safe. Police are on the way Using AI alerts, US. based live agents help deter break ins. 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The trial of Sanay and Kenny Cimes for murdering Irene Silverman began in a Manhattan courthouse It was a tricky case in a way no body and No DNA or other physical evidence to tie mother and son to the crime. But Detective Hoigam was feeling as confident as he could be We had such circumstantial overwhelming evidence I knew we'd get a conviction DA presented one hundred and thirty witnesses The motive was pure cold blooded greed S the prosecution. Sante wanted that townhouse. And so they killed Irene And Sante pretended to be Irene ing a notary into approving the legal documents to steal the house. They got the notorary to come in. they forged the deed. they got her signature The notary testified to that, but Where was the deed now Yeah The jury learned that police had been listening in on Sante's jailhouse calls And so they heard When she asked Ci and another private detective to go pick up a bag, she checked at New York's Plaza Hotel. It sounded. Urgent. You have to go and pick up the bag of the plazet. You have to go, you have to go. Hundreds of times When the PI went to get the bag Investigators were right behind What was in the bag? In the bag was the deed to the house, the most important piece of evidence that we needed That's what we were searching for That was a nail in the coffin The jury found Sante and Kenny Kimmes guilty of one hundred and eighteen charges including second degree murder just rang out in the courtroom over and over and over again. guuilty, guilty, guilty, guilty. I think timeime they found Silverman. I think they'd gotten away with so much up to that point where they didn't have a fear of going for that big score. They thought they really thought they werere going to get away with it rightight after it was over. Cisi went to check on Sante I expected tears I I expected Hysteria. because of her volatile personality. and Instead of that, she threw arms around me and she just said We have to start on the appeal Kenny's reaction was starkly different. He was absolutely gray Asashion is the perfect word He could not believe what had happened because Hn't his mother told him a thousand times We're innocent. We're innocent Despite the guilty verdict, crucial questions remain. Like where and how was Irene murdered Only they knew that neither would say Yet Kennedy was sentenced to one hundred and twenty five years, his mother to one hundred and twenty Kenny was sent to a prison in upstate, New York. And that's where freelance journalist Maria Zone went to interview him while working on a court TV documentary. The interview was at noon. cororrections officer brings me to an empty cafeteria. There were two chairs Penny walks in in his Prison garb And I'm sitting down with my two man crew. And right away I could tell something was going on Like his mind was racing. Are you saying though that mr. Silverman was aware that you were sharing your partpartment with your mother? Absolutely Absolutely. And after about ten minutes, he said, Can I go to the bathroom So he went to the bathroom the first time asked him a couple of more questions T minutes must have gone by. Can I go to the bathroom again? Could we take a break in maybe five or ten minutes? Then finally, the third time he said to me, Maria, I'm really hungry. Would you mind getting me something to eat? So Maria got a snickers bar and a water from a vending machine Then she handed them to Kenny Big mistake It all happened incredibly fast. Next thing I know, he's around my back with his arm across my neck. and he did say to me, this is a hostage situation. The Core TV crew recorded a few seconds of it until Kenny demanded they stop. T One way He was holding a pen to Maria's throat, the same pen you could see him handling during the interview. Maria was terrified Butud like a good reporter kept asking questions I said to him Kenny, whyy are you doing this? And he basically said, I want to be extradited to Canada. My mother is an elderly woman. She can't live the rest of her life in prison. He held her there on the floor for hours, while hostage negotiators kept looking for an opening, and Maria kept talking. I finally said, you know how to pray And he said yes And he actually was very receptive to it. I know I needed some comfort. So we said the Lord's prayer together. There was a hostage negotiator that after we prayed together, he said to Kenny, Kenny, I'm going to try to help you. Here is my business card and he pulled out a business card and he reached out Kennh That was the distraction the authorities needed. The guards pounced They must have just all jumped on him and I heard him grunting and groaning. and I didn't look back for his violent stunt Kenny got sent to solitary confinement And years would pass before he would see his mother again A reunion in an LA courtroom where a chilling story would come tumbling out I got her in the bathtub And he had his hands around her throat And he said, I didn't know how long to squeeze Cimes we're serving time for killing Irene Silver But the story was far from over California was waiting to try them for the murder of David Castden Mother and son faced the death penalty for that one They were extradited to Los Angeles. I went to see Kenny Kent urged his little brother to play. Let's make a deal I was in Kenny's ear and I was telling him, you're not going to win this one. You've got the death penalty put me in the position where I have to explain to your My kids, that you've been executed. Don't do that Advice can he too? He agreed to plead guilty if prosecutors took the death penalty off the table, and not just for him, but for his mother too It was a no brainer for LA We like the deal The DA liked it U, so we made a deal with Kinney Sante, however, wasn't quite so flexible. Confess, not a chance. Not even when they told her that her Kenny, though few would have imagined it possible, was going to testify against her It began in june two thousand four It was theatrics from the start Sante was wheeled in in a wheelchair This was for dramatic effect, which is you knows Sante, her life is dramatic effect Defense investigator CC McNair was there when Kenny took the stand. He then told the story of murdering David Casten Sante was in front in the wheelchair and you could hear her sobbing crying. As Kenny spoke A lifetime of loyalty died He told the jury it was Sante who decided Cazden had to go becausecause Kasten got wise to their scams Sante who ordered him, Kenny to do it. And so of course, Kenny went and took his pistol when he presented his smiling face at Castden's door. He recognized Kenny, and so he let Kenny in So Ken you walked in and I think Mr. Kazan offered him some coffee or something And when Mr. Gazen turned around in the kitchen, and that's when Kenny took the gun and shot him in the back of the head And then he heaved Castden's body into that dumpster by the airport. And on under way home to see mom. Kenny stopped and bought a hundred dollars bouquet of flowers to give to her Celebrate the job accomplished. kind of a window how sick their minds were Oh, but there was more. Kenny described exactly how he and his mother murdered Irene Silverman His mother came into Irene's bedroom, turned on the television I hit her with a stun gun I got her in the bathtub And he had his hands around her throat And he said I didn't know how long to squeeze After, said Kenny. He put Irene's body in the trunk of that stolen Lincoln and dumped it in a trash bin in Hope Boken, New Jersey, and drove back to Manhattan just in time to be arrested with his mother It was horrifying to hear I was viscerally affected. Bye this description And Kenny had one more story to tell This one about that missing banker in the Bahamas, Sayed Ahmed Last seen having dinner with Kenny and Sante last meal of his life They spiked his drink. they'd already filled the bathtub because he knew they were going to drown him And it's when he passed out from drinking M Kinney takes him into the tub But he says as soon as I put his head underwater and held him He said the fight was on. He said that guy was stronger than what I thought It was a bigger battle than I thought But eventually he was able to around him. God, you can just imagine that scene, huh? I know I know So, was he sorry for his crimes Is that why he offered his confession? Kenny's brother didn't think so His confession was not exoneration. It was purely self serving. It was, you know, bestess he can do at the time. Sante was convicted and sentenced to life without parole. and installed in New York's Bedford Hills prrisoner there to spend the rest of her days So Not quietly. I went up to see her And you would think she would claimed that her son had turned against her by confessing. And instead of that she said, Kenny saved our life He saved my life But didn't do it This is the greatest miscarriage of justice in American history Defiant as usual But for the victims' families, at least the not knowing was over Except Quite There is one more story This one happened back when Kenny Jr. was still a teenager not yet a killer It's the story about that other son named Ken and his father, Elmer I think you just got caught up. in a situation he didn't know how to get out of Elmer Hongggrren, the down on his luck lawyer Sante somehow persuaded to burn her house down in Hawaii. For the insurance, of course Except the Feds got wind of it Cmren decided to cooperate. Wear a wire He was working with the ATF. You know, to implicate the crimes on this But then Ken Holgren is sure Sante and Kenneth Sr. foundound out And they took Elmer on a little holiday to Costa Rica He was never seen again My father was gone and Mysteriously gone Murdered, his son believes So there was never a trial, there was never a charge. there was never anything having to do with Your dad Does that matter to you a lot did at the time You know, the ATF agent said, well They're going to be in prison for the rest of their lives What difference does it make? Well It made a difference to me and it made a difference to the family too. sure. Bren's name would have been there as someomebody whose death had been countounted for some kind of justice done Correct Yes Justice Kenny Kimes has had more than two decades in prison to reflect on that And to make sense of the broken life and love he shared with his mother I find that very interesting actually, Kenny, that you can say you love Your mother that you I love I love my mom and dad forever. And now In his first TV interview in decades going to try to explain Even in prison, Sante Kimes could seem Glamorous. Band Terrifying feared for my life For a long time. From years Rhonda Martin, Kent's high school girlfriend, finally got the news with everyone else in twenty fourteen After sixteen years behind bars Sante Kimes died Are you more comfortable now? Yes, because she's dead. Wow, that's saying something, isn't it A woman who charmed and harmed whose death, even for the son who ran from her all those years ago was very, very hard I knew I was the only person on this planet that would feel pain for it And no one else could understand why And You know One thing I'll never apologize for is love of my mother Though there is Kenny, so Kant is not the only son to feel the pain I still carry a lot of guilt with Kenny. I mean, it's my biggest regret, not trying hard to pull him from that grassp. but I was out matched. Mom scrunged with me in that department. The RJ. Donovan Correctional Facility, San Diego, California. Today, Kenny Kymes is a middle aged man, serving his time in a prison in San Diego Hello, good morning. He agreed to speak with us on the phone which is what the California prison system allows. But this would be his first recorded interview since the day he took that court TV reporter hostage a quarter century ago And it was a much different Kenny this time The first thing I want to say is that I absolutely regret my past and the ignorance of my past crimes makes me want to do better and makes me want to engage in what I would call tangible contrition This was his reason for talking to us to tell us he had come up with On his own Grand idea. if I can prove the ability to raise a million or more for San Diego Unified for education C I do basic military training on film while in custody This could help teachers, kids, the military and prisoners. what I'd like to do Just how did this convicted killer plan to raise a million while in prison for life Well, he isn't exactly sure about that, he said It was that kind of conversation friendriendly W some kind of limit, we sensed comoming soon Is there anything that you would like to say now too the families of those people, to the survivors of those people that would be b hundred percent one hundred percent, I'm sorry.