Keith Morrison on Five Miles From Home

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You're listening in to the dateline story meeting. There's finally been an arrest. Our producers are catching up on breaking crime news. There's great footage of the couple and these lavish parties they attended. The defendant is anxious to talk. So did he poison the Brussels sprout Welcome to Dateline True Crime Weekly I'm Andrea Canning. It's june twenty fifth, and here's what's on our docket In San Diego County, California, prosecutors argue a wife's affair drove her husband to haxes and murder Her lover takes the stand. He was messaging my basasically, his life is screwed up, his world is screwed up, he's screwed up, everything is ruined. In Dateline roundup, former Bartstown Kentucky police officer Nick Hk enters a plea to a perjury charge less than a year after his brother Brooks was convicted of killing Crystal Rogers And the notorious missing child case of Aon Pates gets a ruling from the nation's highest court The Supreme Court essentially reversed the reversal. Plus, Keith Morrison is here to talk about his all new podcast series five Miles from Home. The compounding issue of What teenagers can sometimes do to each other for no apparent reason It was just something I couldn't get out of my mind Before all that, Luigi Mangioni's defense team switched up its strategy and then switched it again Luigi Mangioni recently appeared in a New York City courthouse for what was to be a routine pretrial hearing ahead of his state murder trial Mangioni is accused of gunning down United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson back in December of twenty twenty four It turned out though, that that routine hearing revealed some major news The judge overseeing the case, announced that Mangioni planned to use a psychiatric defense, asserting that he was emotionally disturbed at the time of the shooting Then, twenty four hours later, Manion's attorneys withdrew the psychiatric defense It was a head spinning couple of days, and here to help us make sense of it all is NBC News legal analyst and defense attorney, Danny Savalos and dateline producer Mike Nardy. Mike and Danny, thanks for being here. Thank you. Thanks, Andrea All right, so Mike, you produced the recent dateline episode on the case with Lester. Give us a quick reminder about what happened in those early morning hours on december fourth, twenty twenty four. United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson was shot dead outside the Hilton Hotel in Midtown, Manhattan. while he was on his way there for the company's annual invvestors conference A days long manhunt came to an end when the manager at a McDonald's in Altona, Pennsylvania, called authorities to report that some of the customers there thought a man resembling the alleged gunman was eating breakfast There, police took twenty eight year old Luigi Mangion into custody, and he was eventually charged in connection to Brian's murder Okay, so Mangioni has entered a not guilty plea for all the charges against him, including federal stocking charges and state murder charges Danny, before last week's hearing, we had some hints about where his defense strategy was going. Yes, we did. And I would say the highlight has been their motion to suppress evidence These motions are virtually never granted, and yet they got some items suppressed and kept out of evidence, even though they lost on some of their other motions. So their strategy so far appears to have been Try to keep as much evidence out as you can as we approach trial Yeah, they kind of failed when the judge ruled that a gun found in Mangioni's backpack as well as some of his writings could be seen by the jury. So Mike, take us into the hearing that took place last Wednesday. Mangioni came into the courthouse in downtown Manhattan. He had his head down, he was in handcuffs. and as the hearing got underway, the judge overseeing the state case made a stunning announcement. He was unsealing a notice from Mangioni's defense team that they would be using the affirmative psychiatric defense and emotional disturbance at the time of the killing I guess they filed this back in September of twenty twenty five, but it had been sealed from the public. What does it even mean the psychiatric defense in a case like this This particular psychiatric defense, extreme emotional distress or disturbance, or EED, as I'll call it All it would do is lower the level of the crime to first degree manslaughter versus second degree murder. And that of course would reduce the prison time that he would be exposed to. One of the keys to EED is you have to admit that you committed the killing. So you would have to admit to the killing and then hope against hope that you can establish this distress and the best you'll get out of it is a reduction in your penalty. What would Mangioni's defense team have to prove to be able to prove this. So under the jury instructions, essentially you'd have to prove three things First, he must actually be extremely emotionally disturbed It's got to be so extreme that it resulted in a loss of self control The second is that there has to be an explanation for this extreme emotional disturbance that is reasonable And then Third, the defendant has to show that he was under the influence of that extreme emotional disturbance when he committed the homicide. Not now during his Pp walk, not in his writings in any manifesto, but at the time of the killing. Okay, so maybe Mike can help us out here. Mike, did you find anything in your reporting with Lester that would give us any insight into Mangioni's state of mind and why he may have been Emotionally disturbed at the time of the killing? Most of the people we spoke to, in fact, all of the people we spoke to described Mangioni as a normal young man. He certainly did not come across as being obsessed with the health carere industry. You know, we even looked into this back ailment that he had suffered from. There was speculation that maybe the injury is what inspired the killing or maybe would have caused this disturbance. but we found no evidence of that. You know, In fact, Lester spoke with a yoga instructor in Honolulu who had taught yoga classes to Luigi. and he told us that Mangioni certainly didn't come across as someone who was in debilitating pain We also spoke with a professional soccer player who met Mangioni at a bar in Bangkok And he told us that they did discuss America's healthcare system But he said Mangioni was not particularly angry or resentful. Mike, you reported that there was a time when Mangioni was off the map. friendriends and family couldn't account for his whereabouts Is there the thought that that could have been where things changed for Luigi Mangioni? Certainly, certainly. And like you said, we just don't know what he was doing. we don't know what his mental or physical state might have been because he stopped posting online. his family seemed to be out of contact as well because we understand he missed a good friend's wedding. and we know that his mom filed that missing persons report in November just before the murder And Mike, you read through all the writings inside his backpack. Right? What stood out to you You know, he does write directly about the health carere industry in these writings. In a letter addressed to the Feds, he writes, theseese parasites simply had it coming the U. S. has the number one most expansive health carere system in the world Yet we rank roughly number forty two in life expectancy. United is the fifth largest company in the US by market cap And he goes on to say, it has grown and grown, but it has our life expectancy? No. Danny, when it comes to a potential psychiatric defense How do writings like this fit into that? if at all These writings are certainly interesting and they could help the defense. unless it can be shown that it was close to the time of the shooting, it may not be relevant. In fact, more relevant to me is what we mentioned about him going off the grid, because it's so much closer to the time of the shooting That's the kind of thing I would think would be even more helpful to the defense As we mentioned The defense. withdrew this psychiatric defense the next day. What happened? Originally, I suspected that it was possible that Mangioni himself was changing his mind or engaging in last minute decisions. Since then, I now think it's possible that when they came into court, that they may have filed this notice to hedge their bets, which is something you do as a defendant. You want to keep every option open And then when the court said, well, going forward, we're going to have to release all this information, I think what happened was the defense thought, it's not worth it because the benefit of this extreme emotional disturbance defense It's really only a reduction in punishment. It's not really a defense. So what is next for Luigi Mangioni's defense? Do we have any idea? Their defense at this point is the same as any other defense. They're awaiting trial, preparing Putting together the evidence they plan to contradict or fight and maybe some of their own evidence. The emotional disturbance defense, technically, it's something the defense could revisit, but I would be surprised if they did. even though it's not evidence, the mere fact that federal and state prosecutors are now aware that on some level, Mangioni was considering admitting to the killing is going to be problematic. It's not something they're going to introduce as evidence, but it's something that certainly galvanizes both the federal and state prosecutors to probably convinced they have the right guy All right, thank you, Danny and Mike, both of you for being here and bringing us your unique insight into this latest development. Thank you, than you Coming up Bombshell testimony from a missing woman's lover as prosecutors try to prove she was murdered by her husband This summer, fandou is the best place to bet on goals. Including equalizers. Uhuh. Followies? Yeahep, headters. Every goal is worth more on fandu. So let there be goals You customers get three hundred fiftyion bonus bets guaranteed when you bet five dollars for seven days. twenty one plus in presence and select dates. First online real money wager only, minimum five dollar wager required for seven consecutive days. five doarars first deposit required. 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Find fragrances from perfume to candles or opt for a brand name bag. plus, your store had a glow up, so it's more fun to shop for those special women in your life Mom is wow upside down after all. Burlington, Deals, brands. Wow Over the last six weeks in San Diego County, California, prosecutors have laid out their case against former Navy optician, Larry Milliete They say that in twenty twenty one, Larry killed his wife Maya and hit her body A crime they say he committed after first hiring a spellcaster to put a hex on her Prosecutors argue Larry killed his wife because she wanted a divorce and was having an affair with a married coworker On Monday, prosecutors called to the stand their most anticipated witness The man Maya was having the affair with Jamie Laird Here to bring us the latest is NBC seven invvestigative reporter Alexis Reivis. Hey, Alexis, welcome back to the podcast. Hi, thanks so much for having me. So before we talk about the latest testimony, remind us Alexis what authorities are alleging happened. For years now, prosecutors have said that Larry Milete killed his wife, Maya five years ago because she disappeared from their home, right? The last footage of Maya is walking into her house And there's no known video of Maya ever leaving They say he killed her and then found a way to get rid of her body in a way that no one has ever been able to find. So Alexis, the prosecution says Maya was in love with her coworer, a man named Jamie Laird who has really been at the center of all of this. What do we know about him We didn't know very much, honestly, and that's why Everyone was waiting to hear him take the stance The room got I mean, within a very short amount of time, a lot of people were trying to get in and were turned away at the courtroom doors. Everyone just wanted to hear from him. For so long And now we're learning a lot more about kind of how this affair really began and just how close Maya and Jamie were and how often they talked up until and including the day she was last seen alive. What did Jamie say about his relationship with Maya Let's get back to the beginning. He started working at the same place as Maya in the summer of twenty nineteen. About six months later, he said Maya started texting him and soon after that, this relationship gets physical and it stays highly physical relationship for about a year Jamie said that they met up in cars, at hotels and very early on They were caught They both got called into their boss's office. they both They basically agreed that they were going to deny this for a while. They lied to their boss, to coworkers And this is on a naval base, right? I think it's important to note. Maya was his supervisor's supervisor. So this is a kind of a relationship that could have been problematic for both of them had it come to light in the office. Alexis, the fact that Maya and Jamie were confiding in each other and this feels like it got pretty deep emotionally as well Why was that important for the prosecution's case? Well, they had these kind of codeenames for their spouses and they had all this kind of behavior that they did to try to keep their affairs secret art of that Maya's codename for Larry was V as in V from Voldemort. Jamie also testified that in general, he was really worried about Maya. He had never seen someone so desperate and so controlling and trying to save the marriage. He was referring to Larry. He knew Larry would also control when Maya could drive Larry would drive her to work and drive her home. Yeah. And one thing that was really important is Jamie told jurors that Maya had told him that she wanted to divorce Larry after this to Big Bear for her daughter's birthday. Yes. She had all these plans. She's telling people she wants to have this birthday party and then she wants to file for divorce. And that trip to Big Bear obviously never happened because Maya disappeared Jamie also read a letter to the jury that he wrote to Maya Yes, that was the part that I'd say was probably the visibly hardest part for Jamie to testify to. He struggled reading that letter. This is when Maya got another job at a different office. So he sends this kind of goodbye letter. He calls her beautiful. He's also saying he wants to get this tattoo that she got on her wrist. Maya had gotten a tattoo of a bracelet Jamie got her Jamie seemed to be very forthcoming in court with a lot of personal information. Here's the thing that I think was kind of one of the bigger wow moments of his testimony. We had learned from Maya's friend She said, yees, we had the affair, but we ended it, you know months ago. Jamie's testimony contradicts that and months before Maya vanished. In fact, they were still seeing each other and talking to each other the week Maya vanished Jamie testified two days before Maya vanished that Larry had called Jamie's wife told her about the affair. So Jamie's telling Maya through messages he's essentially freaking out that his wife can't find out about this. They're trying to get their story straight He says they agree basically to kind of give each other some space. He's going to focus on his baby. Maya iss going to focus on a divorce. And then the day Maya's last seen alive, that afternoon, she's texting Jamie and saying You know, I brought up divorce with my oldest child. went It went pretty well The defense wanted to use Jamie as possibly what like a red herring, you know, in this to create reasonable doubt or an alternate theory Before the trial, the judge said that They couldn't suggest that anyone other than Larry could have been responsible for Maya's death. That is tough for the defense than to try to you point to her lover as a possible suspect in this. They couldn't even ask what his alibi was. They couldn't, you know even really go very far in terms of why he deleted so many messages between him and Maya or why he never replied to Maya the day that she vanished. The defense, of course, was able to cross examine Jamie and they asked him about his behavior after Maya disappeared. They were still You know, kind of try to point the finger at him without crossing the line Yes, it's such a delicate balance, right? But they had to show him his interview with police like a dozen times because he couldn't remember certain things. He changed his story so often. And the defense argued even the police were pretty aware that this man was lying to them a lot. Jamie's ex wife It is also on the witness list. Do you think we will hear from her prorosecution promised the jury we would and you have to think that we will. So Jamie told friends that his wife, his now ex wife would kill him if she found out about the affair. Now You can take that literally or you can take it as people just say things like that. You know, she'll kill me. You know, it was brought up. in trial. Some of the last things he said to Maya in general like he' Freaking out, You can see Jamie unraveling. Larry calleds his wife, his wife is crying on the couch. He was messaging M that basically his life is screwed up, his world is screwed up, he's screwed up, everything is ruined. What else can we expect to hear this week I think For for the prosecution, they're wrapping up. It's week six now We know we need to hear from the ex wife and we probably just need to hear from a few more people in Maya's life. And then the big thing is what happened to her is still a mystery, right? So I suspect some of that is still come in this trial Thank you so much for joining us this week, Alexis. You bet. Up next, it's time for Dateline roundup a major decision by the U. S. Supreme Court in the murder case of six year old Aon Pates. And we go back to the Crystal Rogers case in Bardestown, Kentucky, where a former police officer appears in court on a perjury charge Plus, a special appearance for my friend, Keith Morrison, who has a preview of his all new podcast, Five Miles From Home Have you ever considered surrounding your house with a moat to keep it safe Would you hire a professional wrestler as a bodyguard for your car? Okay, maybe you wouldn't go that far But if you'd go to great lengths to avoid dealing with your insurance company You might have insoranoia And if you have insuranoia, you should have NJM insurance They go to great lengths to do what's best for their policyholders Start relieving your insureanoia today injM. com Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of Angie. When you use Angie for your home projects, you know all your jobs will be done well. Rof repair? done well. Kitchen sink install? done well. Deck upgrades, done well. Electrical upgrade, done well. Angie's been connecting homeowners with skilled pros for nearly thirty years, so we know the difference between done And done well. Angie, the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find a pro for your project at Angie. com DSW, we ask the important questions. like What shoes are you going to wear Whether you're prepping for wedding season, festival season, or just planning the ultimate vacay, the right shoes can make or break an RSVP. So own the moment. You've got big plans and we've got just the shoes at the perfect price, of course. Get ready to get ready with Designer shoe Warehouse. Head to your DSW store or dsW dot com today And let us surprise you. Welcome back. Joining me for this week's roundup is Dateline Field producer Alex Laay. Alex, thanks for being here. Thanks for having me. First up, we are headed to Bardstown, Kentucky for the latest in the case of Crystal Rogers. She is the mother of five who vanished back in twenty fifteen over the fourth of July weekend. It has been more than a decade, and Alex, there are still new developments happening, it seems all the time Right, Andrea, as you know, this has been a long road to justice for Crystal's family. Crystal disappeared from her home almost eleven years ago Her car was found on the side of the highway, but Crystal hasn't been seen since Crystal's dad, Tommy Ballard was murdered a year and a half later in a case that still hasn't been solved In twenty twenty three, Crystal's former boyfriend, Brooks Hck, was arrested for murder. and in twenty twenty five, he was convicted and sentenced to life in prison for killing Crystal. And then earlier this month, Brooks's brother, former Bartdown police officer, Nick Hk, was charged with perjury. Remind us of the details surrounding Nick's perjury charge Sure, so Crystal's family has always believed Brooks had help from his family in Crystal's disappearance, and at Brooks's trial, prosecutors continually called his brother Nick and their mother Rosemary, unindicted coonspirators. Now, prosecutors say Nick made false statements under oath, though there hasn't been any confirmation from the police about what those statements were and how, if at all, they relate to Crystal's case Alex last week, Nick appeared in court for his arraignment, and there were some bizarre moments, including Nick coming to court without his lawyer. H's the judge talking to him about that So how could you been able to get a hold of your attorney? I did. You told me gohead just proceed on with thaty proceed on without it So they did go on assigning him a public defender for the hearing. Here's Nick talking to the judge again, this time about the charges against him. I've been charged with perjury and I have no idea why you guys chargeed me with that. First of all, I don't charge people with perjury. So understand the state police or whoever involved. The public defender, Alex entered a not guilty plea on Nick's behalf. What did the judge say about Nick's original attorney, the one who wasn't in court The judge said that he needed Nick's attorney to be present going forward and instructed him to retain an attorney by the next hearing on july second. Crystal's mother Sherry, she has been such a big part of this case every step of the way. Did she have any response to the arraignment? Yes. So according to NBC Affilate W L EX eighteen, Sherry Ballard was present at the hearing She said afterwards that she's been pushing for perjury charges and is hopeful that the truth will emerge about her daughter's death. Okay, we will keep you posted on that one Next, we have an update out of Utah, involving the case of murdered right wing activist Charlie Kirk Charlie was shot and killed last September while speaking at a debate on the campus of Utah Valley University. The defense team for the man accused of killing Charlie Kirk is trying to get the death penalty taken off the table, Alex. So twenty three year old Tyler Robinson is charged with felony aggravated murder, along with several other crimes connected to the murder And prosecutors have made it clear that they aim to seek the death penalty if Robinson is convicted He has yet to enter a plea, but at a hearing earlier this month, his defense team asked the judge to remove the possibility of the death penalty because of the statements the prosecution made to the media. What were those statements? The comment centered around a preliminary ballistics report regarding whether or not bullet fragments from Kirk's body matched Robinson's rifle The report was inconclusive and one of the prosecutors on the case spoke to several media outlets about it. That prosecutor, Christopher Ballard, testified earlier this month that there was a lot of misinformation out there about the ballistic report, and he was just responding to the media inquiries But Robinson's defense says the comments violated a pretrial publicity order from the judge and that potential jurors might have been prejudiced as a result They argue that the remedy is to take the death penalty off the table That brings us to a pretrial hearing that happened on Monday. What did the judge have to say about the defense's death penalty request? The judge delayed making a decision and said he's weighing holding the prosecution in contempt for the comments to the media. He delayed the contempt ruling until Friday, leaving the death penalty question up in the air For our final story, we are going to the nation's capitol where there's been a major Supreme Court ruling in the case of Aton Pates, the six year old boy who went missing from New York City in nineteen seventy nine. Yeah. Eton Pates disappeared on his way to the bus stop on may twenty fifth, nineteen seventy nine He was one of the first missing children to appear on milk curtains, and the anniversary of his disappearance became National Missing Children's Day. So I actually covered this case that went unsolved for decades when there were new developments back in twenty twelve A man named Pedro Hernandez who worked at a convenience store near ATon's bus stop Conessed to killing the boy. Right. So after a mistrial in twenty fifteen, Hernandez was eventually convicted in twenty seventeen and sentenced to twenty five years to life. But Hernandez has said he was going through a period of mental illness when he confessed to the crime. And listeners might remember that last year, Hernandez' conviction was overturned by a federal appeals court after his defense argued that the judge in his trial gave a prejudicial answer to a question from jurors about his confession. The case made its way all the way to the U S. Supreme Court. The justices issued a ruling on the appeal on Monday. Alex, what's the news? The Supreme Court essentially reversed the reversal. They said the federal appppeals court exceeded its authority in overturning the conviction in state court. So Hernandez, who's now sixty four years old, will not get a new trial and will continue to serve out his sentence in prison. Thank you for all these updates, Alex, no problem For our final story this week, we are joined by a very special guest, Keith Morrison to talk about his new podcast series F Miles From Home. It is about the disappearance of sixteen year old Michaela Castanzo, a popular high school track star from a small desert town in Nevada. It has obsession, jealousy, high school drama, and a riveting jailhouse interview. Keith, thank you for coming on to talk about your latest podcast Thank you for having me on I am already hooked. I've listened to the first episode and then part of the second episode. and it is as always, all your podcasts are extremely riveting. Well, thank you. And this one, Keith, you have been following since twenty thirteen when Dateline first covered Miaella's case or Mickey, as everyone lik to call her And that was in the TV episode Under the Desert skky What drew you back to this story all these years later? This story has always fascinated me and it's a dark story. It's Shakespearean. I kept thinking about Shakespeare tragedies as I was working on this story before It's what drew me back to do the podcast. It's a story where something happened and you're not sure exactly what for a long time and you're not sure who did what and you're not sure who is going to take the blame for what happened. It's one of those. And even the setting of it is interesting. You paint such a vivid picture of West Wendover, Nevada It has five casinos. I had to look up the giant grinning cowboy because of the way you described it, it doesn't disappoint when you look at pictures. And then as you head toward the outskirts of town of Wendover, there's just desert for miles. Exactly It's an outpost at the edge of Nevada. As casino towns go, it's pretty cool. I liked Westwondover And the people involved in this particular tale are just lovely people You know, that made it both harder and more compelling to do. And you could just tell how much they loved Mickei. Sure. and how special she was This was a girl who wanted to be a writer. She spent time tutoring. And she was a runner. She did everything well And was pretty and was popular in the whole nine yards. But she had a friend who wasn't really a boyfriend. He was a buddy with whom she'd grown up in the same proximity, Cody and Mickei. For a minute or two when they were twelve or thirteen, they thought, well, we could be boyfriend and girlfriend. But of course that it didn't last. and he went on become a six foot six dude who plan to join the Marines when he got out of high school and he fell in love, fell hard for a fellow high school student named Tony when they were in about grade eleven, I guess. by the end of grade. tw He was living with Tony Fredto and her family And they were planning to get married And that's when things happen We're going to touch on a little more of that. Not too much of a spoiler because this is dayateline. But sadly, we learned pretty quickly in the podcast that Mickei has been murdered and buried in a shallow grave in the desert Her sister, Christina, told you what it was like hearing the news from a detective that Mickey's body had been found. Let's take a listen to that. It's hard to hear We have found a body So we called off the search because she's the only one in Alcoo County that's missing And I guess out of hope. I says as, well Can you see her And he says, no, we can only see a small square inch of ash I says, Well, then you don't know it's her And he says you're right, Christin No she's the only one missing. So we're pretty sure it's her You go on this emotional journey, Keith, with the family. It starts out as every parent's worst nightmare, sorry for the cliche, but it is. where you have a high school student or you know a child and suddenly they're not responding to calls or texts. no one has seen them. She was last in school. She was an unusual girl who would call to report where she was and what she was doing every fifteen minutes. And she was always in touch with family.