The Future of Award Shows

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I'm I Pellll Eetitor andie of the Verge and Coder is my show about big ideas and other problems.oday I'm talking about Harvey Mason Junr., the CEO of the recording Academy That's the outfit that puts on the Grammy awards. That's talk to Harvey in twenty twenty four, when it was obvious that generative AI would upbend the music industry it not exactly clear how or how fast that would happen. Well, it's been eighteen months since that conversation And you're going to hear Harvey say that AI is now quote omnipresent in music production Harvey knows what he's talking about. He is himself a legendary music producer who's worked with everyone from Michael Jackson to Beyonce. I've heard Harvey say that every session he's been in recently has had AI in it And I really want tostand what that meant What kinds of tools are musicians using? in what way What kind of music is it making for us? Is it any good? Because as it stands, there's an exponential increase in the rate of AI music creation The streaming platform Dizzer has reported that more than fifty thousand AI generated songs are being uploaded every day And all that AI generated music is getting harder to identify and filter out Af the same time, tools like Suno have become mainstream parts of the creative process for musicians of all clients So I really wanted to know what Harvey's experience is with all that. how he balances all that against his role running the Grammy Awards especially since the recording Academy's rules say that AI music isn't eligible for the industry's highest honors As you can tell, there's a lot going on in this one. Farby and I also talked about the Grammys moving to Disney after years in CBS and what it means to reach new younger audiences with award shows in the age of TikTok If you're a cuto listener you know that I'm saying whatever happens to the music industry happens to everything else five years later This conversation really highlights that Harvey Mason Jr., the CEO of the Recording Academy on the future of AI in Music Arey Mason Junr.,'re songwrit,'re producer and your CEO of the recording Academy. Welcome back to Deoder. Thank you. Good to be here, man. I'm excited to talk to you It's been about a year and a half since you're on the show. A lot has happened. A lot in a year and a half. Actually just want to start with like a lightning round of the Deoder questions, askk. Every CEO the same question I so much on my list that I'm just gonna just do a check in Okay on whether these things have changed. Your CO the recording Academy, that's the organization puts on the Grammies You run music haairs or a charity. It's kind of the social support system for most of the musicians in the United States How is the recording accademy structured? How many people work there? and has it changed at all the past year and a half? It's definitely changed. We continue to grow and progress and try and do more, reach more people. As you said, we serve music and all the people that make it in a lot of different ways through Our Grammy organization, which includes the museum, the Grammy Museum, Music Hairs, as you mentioned, our advocacy efforts in DC and state lawmaker working with state lawmakers around the country, and then of course, the Grammy showhow. And so We're a little over three hundred people, so it's not a massive organization, but we punch above our weight and we do a lot of work and we're very active The way that it's changed is I think we're we're doing a good job of keeping up with the changes that are happening. and That is non stop especially with technology new styles of delivering music, creating music, consuming music. And then also trying to make sure that we're staying tune or relevant with what's happening in music genres, things that are happening, way things are new popularity comes up. People are consuming different styles of music, music from different parts of the world. All those are things that are ever changing. And I love that our organization is moving quickly and staying ahead of a lot of those things. Are you investing more on the policy side productuction side where you're saying you're changing. which specifically part is growing? One of the things that really is going to affect the big change is our partnership with Disney ABC. We were at CBS for fifty something years And so for the first time this year, we will be with Disney ABC And that gives us the ability to do so much more, as you said, investing in content, storytelling, We have more opportunities for using our Grammy brand and to tell music stories in different ways, documentaries, other forms of music content because Disney as our partner just has an appetite for more of that than we had previously. So that will be a change. We've created Grammy Studios, which is exciting. That'll be our m to create a lot of that content and we're really approaching content for a strategy. So when we're doing events or we're doing masterclasses or we're doing Grammy houses around the world, we're going to be filming them and creating content around those. The other question I ask everyCO comes on is about decision making. What's your framework for making a decision? I'm just going to tell you eighteen months ago when you're on the show, you said you like to think a lot and then make a decision really fast has your framewor changed No, if I didn't include the collaborative approach of decision making, I was probably thinking too fast and you might have caught me on the lightning round. but a big part of my decision making is gathering information from people that I trust and people that are around me and people that are experts because I don't pretend to be the expert in every department of what we do I do think I have a great group of people that give a lot of different insight and diverse perspectives and reallycial specialized thinking. And I came from sports. I played basketball as you know, I'm a songwriter, as you know. And those are team efforts. You write songs together. You're not sitting in a room all by yourself, at least the way that I work Do that with other people and the best idea wins. And same for sports. like you have a role on a team. If you're great at that one role, you do that, you don't try and do everything. So that has always been my style of leadership or decision making. To describe that structure you see a group people around you recording haademies about three hundred people. justust how is that structured? How many people work for you and then what roles do they play in a large organization? So we have a president, we have a chief of strategy, I have a chief of staff We have different department heads. I have about twelve people reporting to me at this time and we've gone back and forth on that number and it changes from time to time I've done couple of reganizations over the six years now that I've been in the role. And each of those department heads manages obviously a department, but they all kind of report up to me and we ultimately have meetings to make the decisions that we think are the most important. Right now we're undergoing a strategic plan build, which is I think incredible, and it's been an amazing process for our organization. Each of the department heads bringing ideas and we're coming up with objectives and goals and real strategies to accomplish those goals. That's been a really I really enjoyed the process. And then of course, budgeting against that is another thing that's going to be a fun challenge for us. So we're right in the middle of that process. The reason I ask all this is I feel like if we reound the clock. F ten years ago. I could sort of understand the music industry. you know, and my thesis on the show is If you pay attention to what happens to the music industry, you will know what will happen to every other creative industry five years from now. It's always fastest in music to change Five years ago, o, we've come through the shift to streaming arrtists understand they're going to get paid pennies on the dollar for Spotify, even if they get a billion streams., We got to find other revenue lines Snc licenses where everyone's going to do a kids ad Wherere we end ent tour all day in on home? And that's a deep cut, but thank you. you know it. Now it's like that's all upended So I want to ask you about the vibes in the industry right now. and it's not just AI that's uppending the industry. I'm reading the you the music press this past week. Everyone's talking about bllue dot fever this notion that there are blue dots and all the ticket master seating charts represent empty seats and big artists are canceling tours you got. Megan Triner, the Piscat dolls postalone just canceled about six dates Are the vibes? Well, first of all, I'm just curious, Do you think bllue dot fever is real I do. I don't know all the ins and outs of it, but from what I'm reading and I'm probably reading a lot of the same thing you are, it seems like it's a very, very serious issue It seems like we've been trying to deal with ticketing issues for some time now and there's some discrepancies on the information that we're hearing Hopefully we get to the bottom some of it. Obviously, there's legal cases going on the vibes in the industry from what I'm seeing are there's a lot of idation There's a lot of concern There's fears around some of the ticketing issues, but also AI. and I'm sure that's the topic that is at the tip of everyone's tongue. But I also see a lot of opportunity. There's more music being created, more music being listened to. There is a lot of live opportunities out there. I know you mentioned some that have been canceled, but there's others that are doing really, really well. I was just at Coachella last or a couple of weeks ago I mean, what a spectacle, What an amazing event and series of events. and now you see they sold out for next year without even announcing a lineup. So there are things that are working really, really well. The reason I'm pushing and I'm starting with live is again, five, ten years ago, I think the industry figured it out Right? Okay, there's stuff we can monetize and there's stuff we can't And the idea that the music itself was hard to monetize I think that was a paradigm shift in the industry. right. You make you're going to cut a record and that thing is not going to make you all the money unless you're at the very top of the game.. It's all the other stuff that's going to make you money pressure. has led to rising ticket prices. post COVID, right? everyone's going to be on tour forever. But also the demand has led to some rising ticket prices. I think there's a demand to see a lot of artists depending on who it is. And again, you've said some artists that didn't as much success selling, but There have been other events where Money's not even the object. People just want to go see great entertainers and great music. So I think it's a combination of both. Do you think ticker prices are just going to keep going up? I kind of worry that ticker prices are just going to keep going up Well, considering what's happened to other commodities or other things in our world that we live in, doesn't seem like there's any end in sight. You look at gas, you look at food, you look at rent, the cost of living I hope that ticket prices find some kind of a level because I would hate that to be an experience that only certain people got to take advantage of. I think music and watching music and being entertained by songwriters and creators and singers. that's of who we are and that's stuff that we need just to feel human and to feel alive and to be able to find that common ground with other people. So I would like to think we find a way to allow people to go to concerts. But again, if you look at where we're headed as a society, it just seems like the cost of things is running away from us. Right next to that, there's a big lawsuit against Ticket Master. The federal government settled, ticket Master agreed to some changes already with the federal government, that settlement I think the state atttorneyss general did not think was strong enough. They pursued the case. They've won. somethingomet else is going to happen Do you see the Ticka Mastercase having an impact already and do you see a bigger impact in the future? I definitely think it's going to have an impact. 's going to depend on how it plays out. There's still a couple rounds left in that from what I can tell and what I'm hearing Once that shakes out, then we'll be able to see what the effect will be. The reason I'm starting with live is because I feel like live it was understood how to make money in live. Yeah. And that is kind of shaky right now. The idea that tours are getting cancellled or Oupplying a market with rising costs and people are going to pick gas and groceries over seeing their favorite artists That's unsettling, I think, in the industry. But I also think that's going to be such an appealing proposition live events more in the future than even now, I would bet And depending on ticket prices and accessibility, of course, things are to be considered. People are going to want to go see live music. They're going to want live experiences. You're seeing more and more people on computers and phones and AI and the way they're working remotely. I personally believe being together like we're doing this podcast is much better than doing it on Zoom. Listening to music is going to be much better for people than just doing on headphones. They want to be somewhere where you can be among your peers, among people that love the same music and feel that experience it. Again, I was at Coachella. I felt that there's nothing like going to a live concert. So I truly believe yes, there's lots to sort out, whether that's the legal issues or the ticket pricing or the bots and the blue dots and all the different things people are going to want to see live music. How long did it take you to play your Coachrella outputs? Zero minutes. I watch Coachelllla from social media and I was like, oh, there's a whole other thing happening here. Yeah. That's kind of the other dynamic, right Is that the music industry has gotten way more commercial, right? Coachrella is it's influcer Olympics has all of the brand activations There's something there, right where it's okay, the money has to come from somewhere. it's going to come from credit card companies or travel agencies, or whatever is happening. activation. packaging. ye ye. Tell me about that vibe right now is we have to commercialize the industry in order to support these artists. I don't know if it's a great thing or a horrible thing. I can't tell, but it's definitely happening and it is a way for artists to make additional revenue But it all stems from the music. Music is driving so much of this and the culture around it is so important. and that's why I love the work that I do because I get to be around those people And if you can figure out how to package up all the different things you just talked about, ancillary revenue opportunities. You have to remember back at the source, it's the music It's the songwriting, it's the performing, it's the recording And that's why to me, the accademy is so important because we're continuing to push to advocate and support those opportunities for our music people. So yeah, I love all the different things that people figured out how they you know, how they make money and how they monetize music or performances or live or merch Even food, you see food coming together with music, you see sports coming together with music. Those are great things. Those things make me excited because of my passion for music and music people. Again, the reason I'm starting here is because I want to ground the conversation. I feel all that pressure in the music industry. I can see all those gears turning And then right next at, AI is beending the process of songwriting, the process of producing music. And I do think it is happening faster in the music industry than other creative You can just see it happening every single day in music. Music people are pretty quick to jump on new technologies and we adapt relatively quickly, I think And you're going to see it have an impact across all creativity in different art forms. I'm quite certain But as you said, music people are early and it's had an impact already, and I'm sure we're going to dive into it We need to a qu rs. We'll get back Support for the show comes from ServiceN. AI was supposed to handle the parts of the job you hate. 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You don't need to be a tech expert to make it happen either Zabier is for everyone their data shows teams have already automated over three hundred million AI tasks using Zapier Join the millions of businesses transforming how they work with Zapier and AI. Get started for free by visiting Zapier d. com slash decoder That's Z A P I E R dot com slash decoder We're back with recording Academy COo Harvey Masonon Junr., ready to dive into how AI is changing the music industry So the last time you're on the show, I'll just read you some of the quotes. I don't think you can tell me that AI can create songs in the key of lifeife, neverever mind are alomatic. And then you said, it's all going be a mess until we get sorted out because yes it's difficult It's been eighteen months, has your thinking evolved dramatically on how AI can deliver quality and how should use it? It has honestly And it's crazy. I never thought it would change, but actually that's not true. I knew it was going to change because it's all been changing so fast. quality of what it's able to create is has improved dramatically I remember eighteen months ago, you could tell and something was AI generated And now it's to the point where People are playing me things and telling me that AI made it and I'm surprised. and I'm impressed at the quality of it And all that scares me because I do represent are roughly thirty thousand music people and then millions of music people around the world that have grown up their whole lives trying to figure out how to express themselves by using a guitar or a keyboard and writing their heartfelt lyrics. And now you can prompt some of that stuff. And it's darn good, which I don't know if I love or don't love, but it's evolved over the last eighteen months. You're a producer and a songwriter, you're still a working producer and a songwriter, and you're still in sessions You gave a quote in January He said, I've seen AI in every studio in every session. I'm not remembering a song. I've been around or a room I've been in that was not using some form of AI I have been mulling that quote since January, when you set it on stage. Dying to have you in this chair and ask you with I quote. How is it being used? How is it changing the process of songwriting? your vantage point as a producer and a songwriter, and then obviously as somebody represents the interest of all the songwriters. So the quote, me address that first of all, because I work in pop music generally, pop R and B And in those genres of music I think it's Pretty omnipresent There's other genres that are not that way. So I don't want to mischaracterize it because what I do and what I see may not be everyone else's experience But when I'm in a room AI is generally always there. It's being used to create chord progressions, it's being used to fill out drum loops. someome people are just creating entire tracks using AI Others are using AI to come up with lyrics. Maybe they've written a few lines in the first verse. they want the second verse to have the same rhyme scheme and rhythm, and they'll just enter the first one and say, make a new one for the second one. Some people are putting in a title and it's giving out ideas. And some of them are just using it as a rhyming dictionary. but AI is across so many different aspects of songwriting right now. Definitely people are using it to create background vocals, to make stacks, to create demos of singers that they may be writing a song for It's pretty wild the power of AI. How I feel about it is I have mixed emotions. I am definitely disturbed by the fact that I worked my whole entire life and all the people that I work with have been grinding for years in studios and in bedrooms on laptops and with instruments try to figure out how to make reat art and Now there's a possibility of people doing that that have not put in the work or don't have that same passion. and they can just type in a prompt and create a song. I talk a lot about my niece. She does a lot of AI creating and she sends songs to my wife and says, L at the song I wrote, know She's sixth grade. So it's definitely it's a challenge for me, but I also have to understand both in my role as a producer and my role as a CEO There's got to be a balance because AI is here. peopleeople are going to use it. There's going there's competition out there. songwriters, artists, producers, they're all competing for a certain amount of ears. and a lot of them They don't care how they get to those years. they just want to get to them. So I am struggling with making sure we're preserving human creativity while also allowing technology to evolve in the art form of creating and writing songs. So it's not an easy struggle for me because I am a creator, but I'm also overseeing or trying to help serve music people in the music community, my role as CEO. You mentioned genres. We did a story a while ago, our great friend Charlie Harding wrote about A in the country music industry The country music industry is an industry. It's more structured than other kinds of music. Very different. songwriters, there are session musicians, trrack players, it's a machine And he was like, AI showing up. structured ways here, right? And the idea that people are going to make a demo track for an artist, that's going away because the songwriters can just say, make me a song that sounds like whatever country artist, and I'll pitch to them directly with their voice. And none of the artists would cop to it, but we heard it from all these Songwriters yeah, we're just using the artist's voices.ure. There's a real dynamic there, right that is spreading to other parts of the music industry. Pop music, as you mentioned, it's starting to music, but it's not as structured, It's not as controlled How do you see that diffusion happening across genre? Well, I'm a little surprised to be honest that it is permeating the country scene. I would think that would be one of the last to accept AI or any input from it. Oh I have a very different view of country music and how commercial Yeah. Well, I think there's an image, and I think there's an ind a reality I've definitely witnessed some people in that space using AI. You have to figure out how you're going to use it. Is it going to be a tool or is it going to be a replacement And that is going to change per industry. I've seen people who are doing film scores now using it in a way that I never imaginine you know they're playing individual instrument lines into you know the generative platform and then that will turn create a full arrangement. So maybe you're playing a line on a piano and then it turns it into strings and violins and violas and cellos and basses and it splits it out on a score, and then they'll just hire the orchestras to play it, but they will not have to do any of the arranging or the composing or u, even the making charts, it's doing all that for you. So You're going to see it used different ways in different forms of music making, which you you're already seeing, as you said, in country versus pop versus composing. I'm going to read you some stats that I think are just fascinating. The Hollywood Reporter just did a big AI in music polls. This is from last fall, It tracks the polling that we've seen more recently. Most people, fifty two percent, do not want to listen to music made with the help of AI. sixty six percent of people say they've never listened to music knowing it was made by AI. I don't know if you can do that anymore, but that's be said And then there's a lot of data that just says people dislike AI generally. But you have to look at who they're asking And who are the people that are filling out those surveys and who are the people that subscribe to their magazine or look at their website? As you get into younger people I would imagine those numbers might change. So younger people, this is polling that we have cited a lot on this show and across the verge. Younger people, the more they use AI, the more they dislike it So Gen Z has this like ferocious dislike for AI I bring this up not litigate the poull numbers with you. I'm curious about the the sort of widespread use of AI and the knowledge that most artists have that their fans don't want them to say they're using AI. So Michelle Lewis told Rolling Stone that music industry has a quote, donon't ask, don't tell policy about AI music S SoNOEO it's one of the big generative AI platforms, very the dominant one. Mikey Schulman Ssuno is the ozempic of the music industry. Everybody's on it. Nobody wants to talk about it. That's the gap, right? Everyone's using the tools. Everyone sees the power of the tools. but we cannot tell our fans raight that we're using A to make the music. Do you see that gap closing or do you see it widening? I don't know. I don't know if it's going to close or widen For us at the accademy, we are in an challenging position because we have to award excellence in music. and we are now every year deciding what is going to be the threshold of acceptability. for AI. And so that's going to probably have an effect on how the gap widens or closes because we ask when you submit Did you use AI but acknowledging it's like Ozempic. Some people are going to tell you they're on it, some people are not. so it's a little bit of taking people's word for it. until we can find the technology or deploy the technology, which I know is supposedly out there that can determine when AI is being used, how much it's being used, we are a little bit at the mercy of people telling us and disclosing when they're using it So we'll see what the perception is and as people become more comfortable know in the history of humanity, I think we've had a pattern of becoming much more comfortable with new technology as we've used it and it's been a part of our society. and it doesn't usually take us very long. I remember people that I was with saying, I'm never putting my credit card on the internet, That's ridiculous. Or I've even met people in the music space who said they'd never use P tools or autotune or melodyine or some of the other things that developed and allowed us to be more creative and more efficient with our creativity. So We'll see what happens again in eighteen months. We should talk again and we'll see how people are feeling. Do you see the recent sort of social media discourse about whether death of Autounon had held up? is an idea from Jay Z. It's like now it's everywhere. It didn't actually die. It took over everything. It took over everything. Yeah. I haven't seen that, but it's a funny subject to think about I got big artists saying basically adapt or die, Diplo. I can get the best voice from AI. I don't need anybody to sing the song anymore Literally he said addapter become a newuver driver. Timberland is Do straight AI artists. He's got an entire record labeled for his AI artists. fifty Cent just loves posting memes with like soul covers of fifty cent songs. A grimes exists Tarn Southern is out there. What's your take on? it's the bigger artists who are going to adopt AI faster because they have the name recognition. They can put out AI music and people will listen to it because it is fifty C or Grimes or whoever. and the younger artists are struggling for attention because they're swamped on social channels full of slop. Some big artists will adopt, others are going to reject. Yeah. And I think it's very similar to The other tiers of music creators. some young new artists are going to see it as an advantage and they're going to want to use AI because they can create faster, they can create more things and some are going to you know, rebuff the whole idea of using technology like that to create And I don't think you're going to find any one size fits all. And that's what's going to be cool or I think somewhat acceptable about it. always going to advocate for humans. And I think that's still going to be an important part of the art form is how do we express ourselves as a society as humans as interacting with each other and talking about that human experience That's how we That's how we communicate. That's how we feel each other. That's how we come together. So I think that's always going to be important. The other thing that's going to be important is humans are going to create the coolest, newest stuff A I don't think. eighteen months, we can talk again. I don't think AI is going to go out ahead of us beat us at coming up with a new sound, a new genre or something that's fresh and exciting and that lands and that resonates with listeners. they will at some point maybe figure out how to do that. But what they're going to do now is they're going to listen to all the cool stuff that we make And then they're going to iterate on that. and they're going to probably add a little twist here and they're going to mash some stuff together and come out with a new song or a new voice or a new singing As humans and as creators who are living life and experiencing things, we are going to be the ones that push the art form forward. I truly believe that this month We'll see So you'll have both. You'll have people using AI and just creating a whole bunch of music, and youll have other people say, I want to do it my way. I want to create through my experience and through my pain and through my interactions That'll be cool So you were talking earlier about how to win a Gammy, you gota certified that you made it with human. You only want to give the awards to the human part of the music obbviously getting fuzzier. You're describing it getting fuzzier Diplo submits a track and he's like, all the backing vocals are AI It's okay That's okay. AI doesn't make you ineligible. It doesn't exclude you from the process. We just have to make sure that the human creativity is at the forefront and there is human creativity If somebody submits songs with AI background vocals, they're not going to get Grammy or they want' to be eligible for a Grammy for performance because AI is doing the performing but you can still submit for songwriting or some of the other categories. And conversely, if AI iss a written song, but you have a human singing it and they sang the heck out of it, that person can be submitted for performance award We acknowledge and this is why it's a fine line. we're walking a tightrope right now We want to make sure we're honoring human creativity. We want to honor excellence. We have to acknowledge that AI is being used. And at some point we'll have to decide, do we want to completely ban AI from the process and say, if you used AI at all you are excluded from the Grammy process. orr we're going to say, AI is the next version of for music making and people using it in different ways. someome of them really interesting and creative, Some of them seem egregious and too much. And we're going to have to find that sweet spot. And that's what we're doing every single year. We review this policy. We look at it and make sure that we're doing the thing that our board of trrustees and our members and our creative community want Because we listen to our creative community. So that's what I see the future is navigating that. and I think it's going to evolve over time. Where's the line right now? Right now's right now we call it a more than de minimous amount of human creativity involved in the process. So as long as you can show that a human was involved and it wasn't just a tiny amount then we will say it's acceptable. But as soon as it gets beyond that point of no or not enough human interaction, then we have to pull back. And it's not a perfect system. I mean, it is a very, very tough system to create because again, we don't know exxactly the percentage of human creativity or human interaction. We don't have the ability to determine that today. I hope that we do in the future. We acknowledge that it is not the most perfect system. and music, by the way, is subjective, as you know. So we're evaluating and trying to award something that means something different to everybody. So we just want to try and get it right We want to try and celebrate music and music people in all the different forms of it. And we at this point are acknowledging that AI is a tool that is being used. We also at some point we should talk about the legislation because we need guardrails. We need people telling us and us enforcing the rules around how AI can be used I know you've been advocating for specific litigation. I do want to come to that. I just want to stay on this aspect of it for one second You're saying to win a Grammy awward, you need to show us somehow There's more than a de minimous amount of human involvement. I can't just prompt Suno to make a hit record. Make a sound like Harvey would make for Jen Jackson whichich actually sounds like a great pseudoprompt. I'm going do that when I it out of. Okay, that's not enough. How do you prove it? Do you have to submit paperork? Do you have to submit screenshots? Like what's the proof? Well We have screening committees that review and evaluate. people's claims and at some point It does come down to people's opinions and people doing the analysis and asking questions, asking for proof, asking for documentation. We're not always going to get that. We're going to try. And as I said, it's not a perfect science. We don't have a black and white determining box that you can check that exactly proves that you've done what you've said you've done. But I know that our community is an honorable community. peopleople who make music are creators are different people. I don't think anybody wants to cheat win a Grammy on grounds that they that they can't prove. And I would hate to think that somebody would want to do that. Maybe it happens and hopefully we'll find we'll catch it before it does. But it's just not the perfect system. It's going to be challenging to determine exactly who did what and until we can get the technology that breaks it down for us, we're going to have to rely on our community to be I feel like we're having this deep conversation about the artistic process and creativity and vibes. and I'm just hitting you with stat after stat. Deezer says fifty thousand AI generated songs being upoaded to their platform every day You're describing a process where a bunch of people get together and they look at all the submissions to the Grammys and whatever evidence and they do some process Are you going to get overwhelmed with the amount of AI material that's coming your way? We'll see, so far we haven't. We had about twenty four thousand submissions last year Now is up a little bit from the year before and we'll see what happens this year And if that starts to happen, then we'll have to make changes. The cool thing about our organization, at least over the last five or six years is we've really 've been quick to change. We're watching what's happening. We're listening, we're hearing from our music people. And we're saying, how can we make sure we're doing this the right way? So if we start to get overwhelmed and AI becomes an issue for us and we can't determine what's happening. and we're getting know inundated or the whole thing is getting diluted by AI, then we're going to make some changes. But right now, I think we're in a pretty good spot. There are other parts of the industry that are attempting to do the same things. Spotify, for example, wants to change its royalty structures to account for AI music They have a label now that like a human certified label. Do that align with your thinking? Is there a more holistic approach across the industry that will help with this? That would be great. And I know a lot of us are talking amongst ourselves about how can we align and how can we build some of those processes and lanes for separation. And I also think that's going to evolve over time. And as we start talking, it is a deep conversation, philosophical thought. at some point Is it as important to determine what is et or AI generated and what is fifty percent generated? what is zero percent generated? And at some point consumers start to wear down and tire a little bit of that and just say, I just want to hear great music I'm not sure care about the tools so much right now, and then it leaves it to us on the backke end to make sure we're protecting human creativity I'm not sure it eighteen months from now. Maybe we will, we'll be more concerned about it, but maybe we'll be less. and it'll be like drum machines. And you'll say, some AI was used in this recording. Do I care And I care as the CEO of the Grammyys, I care representing human music people. And again, we're going to have to in the background continue to fight and push and advocate for human creativity. But consumers worried right now if a vocal has autoude on it They're not thinking about if the strings are real strings in the ballad that they just listened to and that they love. So I'm not sure I have the answer, but we're going to see how it changes over time and how consumers appetite for different forms of creativity and different tools being used in that process play out. There was a time when people really cared about Autoune, right? Like shaare producers lied about using Autoune and belieelieve, right? Like That used to be a thing that they would liter lie because they didn't want anyone to know how they'd done it or it hop to it. and you're saying that's going to fade away with AI the same way it's faded away with. I'm not certain it's going to. I'm going to say that's an option that it could. peopleeople become normalized to it and they just want to hear great music. They're not concerned about the tools as much. But in saying that I have to again reiterate that my belief is that humans and human creativity is always going to be important, is always going to be the most desirable and always be the thing that pushes the art form forward. I like your optimism My push backack here is drum machines for the most part were're not made by defense contractors Like maybe Yammaha had some sort of defense contractor but like for the most part, the instrument companies, the sampler companies pioneer was not making military targeting systems. Anthropic, open AI, Google, all the big model companies defense contractors, like they're caught up in like goovernment, like top of the government controversies every single day. They're asking everyone for billions, if not trillions of dollars. We're going to put the data centers in space And at least from my perspective, It seems like the interests of artists and creatives authors are they know it's bad, but they're like, hold on, we got to do we have war. We're going to do war with the AI models. We're going to argue about cybersecurity. C maybe we're going to crash the whole world Have they been responsive to you? The last time you're on the show I asked if you met with Sam Altan and you're like, I'm hoping. Have you met with him since? I haven't met with him directly, but I have met with his team and people from Open and from Claude and We're doing a lot of talking and definitely the other platform Suno and Uio and others. So the dialogues are ongoing. and from my perspective or at least maybe I'm overly optimistic. I know I probably am. You already told me I am today. I appreciate it. But I think Everybody wants to do this the right way and maybe they're tricking me. But from what I can tell, they realize the importance of music and creativity and nobody wants to pen that completely At least the music people that I talk to that are running those companies, they're fans and they love music and they love creativity and they want to add to that ecosystem. We'll see where it goes. I am optimistic, but I think my optimism comes more from the fact that I know our community and I know music people. I know how we think I also know how competitive and talented that our music people are. and I'm just always sure that we'll persevere and we'll use the tools, we'll figure out cool new ways to do great new things with them and We'll iterate on what we've done before and we'll come up with a new new way of making music and expressing ourselves. So that's really where my optimism comes less so from thinking that all the platforms are going to get in line and do exactly what we want because we know that's not going to happen or less so that we're going to have the perfect legislation that's going to be drafted and passed and approved this year because I know that's probably not going to happen. but ye I believe in our people. As you talk to all these companies, which of them seem the most artist friendly? whichich of them seem the most distant That's the dynic When I'm in the room, they're artist friendly. they're all very nice and they all love creators I' was just thinking about open eye doing Sora and just like launching it in the world and like we stole everything or I just keep picking on open eye doing stududio Gibli, right Or saying this voice from our voice synthesizer sounds suspicious to like Sclet Jhson. until there's a lawsuit. L some of them seem much more poised to be aggressive and some of them seem a little calmer. Some of them are more they're just not as concerned about it and they're not focused on a little more frivolous with how they're treating the artist community but I don't maybe I'm misinterpreting it. It doesn't seem like they're doing it be spiteful, to be harmful. they're all trying to figure this all out at the same time. I have heard some people say they just want to move fast and break things. You know, you've heard that probably more than I have and they're going to ask for forgiveness rather than permission and those are things that are scary from a creative community perspective, people that have written songs and hold copyrights and intellectual property We never want to hear that. know we'll ask for forgiveness later. We're going to use what you've created and what you own and what you legally have possession of, and we're going to use that for our own benefit. That's a That's a dangerous precedent and one that I don't think anyone of us on the creative side would support, but you are seeing some of that. So that needs to be worked out. We need to take another short break, we'll be back in a minute. Support for the show comes from even realities Think about the last time you walked into a big meeting and wished your talking points could just stay with you without losing your place or your train of thought Even realities built exactly that Even G two are productivity smart classes designed to keep real time support right in view Teleprompting, conversation support Real time translation, AI assistance and more They help you stay on top of work and daily life And unlike most spark glasses, they're designed to look and feel like premium eyear With no camera and a lightweight thirty six gram design, you can wear all day. 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And for our listeners, use promo code decoder at evenrealities dot com to get ten percent off E Ring one and or even clip when you add them to your EG two order That's even realalities d. com Pomo code decoder Trying to locate new sources that reliably separate fact from fiction can seem like looking for a needle in a haystack That's why the Guardian is launching stateside with Ky Wright and Carter Sherman conversation with experts who slow down the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's actually happening in the world Three times a week, hosts Kai and Carter utilize all the reporting resources the Guardian has discuss the news, international affairs, climate, culture, sports, lifestyle, fashion, and wellness And the Guardian is not billionaire owned, meaning they're free to report the whole picture without interference Go to the guuardian. com slash stateside to learn more And listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube That's the guuardian d. com slash stateside We've all been there. You pop into the shop for five minutes and all of a sudden you've forgotten where you parked Car C Unfortunately, that lost feeling is what it's like trying to manage your policy with other insurers Here C, come out, come out wherever you are. please. With GCco, you can use the app to easily manage all your policies in one place Did this parking lot have a waterfall I think you've wandered too far, mate. It feels good to find what you're looking for. It feels good to Gaico Ielc with recording Aademy Co Hve Masonon Jr. tal about the collision of AI in the music industry. There's an interesting split here. There's legislation that you've brought up, the No Fakes Act, which protects voice image and likeness. There's the Tin Act, which would give creators access to the records of what was trained on, so it could demand royalties There's a clear act, which is just a transparency Just tell us what's in the models I would love all those to exist. Like you said, I don't know if this year is the year. Congress to act with alacrity on AI. I just got back from DC and it doesn't seem like this is the year. They're having so much inighting There is a lot of alignment around these, which surprised me. It's bipartisan bicameral support for especially the no fakes Everybody knows that's the right thing to do. And how can we get it done? Let's get the language right.' not try to make it perfect. Let's get something on the books right now and then we can refine it. That's at least my thought. You would think Donald Trump of all people would understand that the use of his voice is a powerful thing that he should But it doesn't seem like it matters, right? Like there's I have like my most nihilistic version of this is Copyright law exists as a framework for big corporations to make deals And for everyone else, it's just a free for all. We're just going to take stuff and remix it Mark Cuban and Tayor Swift are doing any crypto ads and that's just the end of the, you know, like there's there's no holding back and maybe there will be some laws on whatever timeline there are laws. And in the meantime you're going to get the platforms deceid that because copyright law is the structure by which they make deals, they got to do something So YouTube has likeness detection now. That is just a private legal framework. They just made up some rules about likeness And you can sign up for it and just the way that content ID works on YouTube. They're like, we saw your face. You're selling shoes. Do you want us to take it down? and they'll take it down. That's a lot of platforms inventing a bunch of frameworks Do you think that's going to be effective? Do you think there's something to learn there as you push Congress or other governments to do stuff? Or does that feel like just another kind of chaos for artists to deal with? It feels like a first step and it feels like something that is head in the right direction because those are things that are attempting to protect the artists and the ownership that they have. And I appreciate people trying to do that. but it does make it difficult for the artists haaving some federal framework, some federal legislation, or even an industry wide framework that we could all abide by would be even better Everybody's just trying to figure this stuff out. People are trying to run their businesses, artists are trying to run their businesses, streamers are trying to run their businesses. and there's a lot it's a dynamic that is very difficult and I don't know that we faced a time like this before. Everybody likes to say, we've seen this before, we've seen this before And to some degree, that's true. We've seen sampling, we've seen streaming, we've seen, as I said, drum machines and disruptive technologies in the creative process. This one for some reason feels different, and maybe I'm showing my age when I say that because everybody says that about the issues that are in their generation the the change to The human creative process and the ownership of that is in question or at least being discussed right now. I don't think it's been as acute as it is now or has the potential to be now the history of where we are in creativity and music. I don't sit in your shoes. I don't have to I don't have to play the roles. you have to play. I can just be direct. I look at the state of, don't know the world economy and I think those guys shouldn't be as rich as they are and all of the artists should be much richer than they are. I totally agree. Are you allowed to be that frustrated and express that as clearly as I think your fans as your constituencies and the music community want you to say it? Yeah, I'd like to think so I agree with artists and creators and people who make music are special They just are they do for society and what we do for the world, what we do for individuals, for communities, for countries And I'm a music person, so I just see it through that lens But I think that the people who do that should be taken care of and should be compensated and they should have the ability to control what they make and they should have the ability to decide how it's being used and how they're compensated and how they're credited. I just strongly believe that. in my career, I've worked with so many special people, you know, and I remember I've sadly worked on the last record of a lot of very talented people. I worked on Whitney Houston's last record, Michael Jackson's last record, Luther Ben. And I remember distinctly when they' passed and thinking to myself, we've lost something so important and so meaningful. and people have their challenges, they have struggles, issues. Everybody has something they can get upset at an artist about. But at the end of the day, when an artist makes a record And you feel that record and you're driving your car or you're dancing at a wedding or you're at a concert, there's nothing in the world like that. Yeah thoseose people and the people that allow that to happen We have to watch out for them regardless of some of their shortcomings or some of their faults, because of what they put into the world, and I just think that's powerful. Are you allowed to bring this fire to your meeting with the AI companies? That's really what I'm asking here. For my audience, I sense frustration. Yeah. This is gonna go out on YouTube and I invite you to take a scroll through the inevitable YouTube comments we're gonna get, which basically come down to, why isn't RV arresting Sam woman? right? Like that's the vibe I get on this show all the time These guys are they've stolen everything And the people who should be getting the value, the people who make us feel joy are getting nothing. That's how people felt about Spotify. That's increasingly how people feel about YouTube Are you allowed to bring the fire to your meetings and in your advocacy? or are you playing a more subtle game? I try and bring fire with me no matter where I go But also it is a relationship and it's a long term play. This is not going to happen instantly and how you're interacting with people is going to affect the outcome. And I do believe, as I said, they're trying to run a business just like I'm trying to run a business or protect a business Finding a solution is not going to be me just bulldozing them. It's going to be how do we come together to find something that works for both of us? And I have to say, much like streaming when streaming came out, people were up in arms about it. Streaming is horrible. We're not getting paid, but on the other side of that You see how many more people are listening to music. You see how many more people are finding new artists that they never knew before? How many people are being encouraged to go to concerts because they discovered a song that they love on a streaming platform. So there are trade offs. So if somebody goes and just blows up streaming right off the bat We lose a lot of other opportunities that are unintended or you might not have thought of. So approaching the AI people is kind of the same thing. Yes, we have some issues, but yes, you're also bringing something that could potentially benefit all of us, music creators, society at large And so how do you manage that is, I guess the challenge? There are some bulldozers in the music industry. when streaming came out Taylor Swif bulldozed her way into a rate structure that Eventually most of the industry adopted. She put a big article, I think it was a Wall Street Journal about being not being on Spotify at that time. Universal music exists. That is maybe the biggest bulldozer of all. Ser Lucian. Sir Lucian Grange, onene of the bigg bulldozers of all. He's, you know, he's suing and settling with suunos and UDos in very tactical ways, right? The fight is whether The songs in SNo can be exported as MP three files to be shared freely or whether you have to listen to them on a platform which provides at least some gatekeeping. I don't know if that's effective, I don't know if that's an effective restriction. I can think of fifty ways to get around that is an old music fifty. But like this is the level that the bulldozers are saying, Okaykay, we are going to restrict your platform. Do you think that that kind of power in the music industry can lead the charge on pushing back? Yes, it can. Will it be effective? we'll see At some point I'm sure they all realize this much more than I do because they're incredibly smart and powerful and thoughtful But consumers want what consumers want and Fiction between consumers and music or consumers and how they access their music. Those are things that you can push against as much as you would like to and probablyroably not going to work peoplee want to listen to their music So yes, I think strong leadership and lawsuits and trying to be protective is important and it is hopefully going to make advancements in the right direction At the end of the day, as I said peopleople want their music, they want to listen to it, and that's probably going to change based on A lot of things, the lawsuits, the bulldozers. but also f of music. When I ask one more question here and I'm to talk about the Grammyys in Disney for one second to wrap it up. You've been in the studios, you've seen artists use these tools in all kinds ways. I'm assuming you've used the tools in all kinds of ways. What's the most innovative sound? I've never used the tools. You've never used a tools? No, just I was gonna say. That's the breaking news. No, no, no, I have sorry. What's the most innovative sound That's the most innovative technique that you'veen tools enable because that's the thing that to me would would maybe make the sale, not I'm going to make soul covers of fifty cents Right? Like there's something about that that's just like kind of cheap, right? We're going to enable a new sound, a new method of songwriting that enables a new kind of story to be told. Where have you seen the bleeding edge? What I've seen interesting is people using platform to create songs and generate stems and stems are the multi track split outs. So you have all the drums on one track, bass on track. They say the plic mean like pno. Yeah. And creating stems and then having live musicians iterate off of the stems. So they'll say, Okaykay, here's a really cool groove of a song that we love. But now let's do a live drum, live bass Lve keyboard player, not using the stems platform having those inspire live musicians to build on top of that. So I think that's kind of cool because it's almost like you're having a writing partner in the room that has infinite ideas, and you can say, Well, let me try it like this and you hear something that inspires something in you as a musician or as a producer To me, those are interesting uses. I like less people who just prompt and get a sound and just stick that in their song and say, Ohh, I got something from the platform. I'm going to use it I like more when they get that and they hear it and it triggers something and you go to the next level from what you've just heard. And I I think that's a cool use of it. Let me put that in a sort of broader arc of music We've talked about drum maches a lot. I'm a Pestan fan. me too. They became a drum machine band because The drums are too lad in their apartment. So the drum machine enabled to pach Mote, and then synthesizers enabled all of like post punk first wave That's my mus Like New Oder exists because of it a huge technological set of achievements that then they use to make a style of music. Turntables and mixers, we got first wave hip hop, Then we got samplers, we got another wave of hip hop Aut tune You got ACon, like whatever that is, right? Like I can co in. ye. U one of the most underrated and correctly rated artist at all time. at the same time, T thing All right, like I can point to, here's a technological innovation that led to a sound. that led to a genre, that led to a movement What do you think that looks like with AI? Is it going to be the same kind of thing or is it slop? Be that the danger is slop. The danger is definitely slop. I don't think it's going to be one thing because AI is so all across the board and it's being used in so many different ways. The drum machine was a very specific example whereas AI is You can't define its individual use. Everybody us it differently. Every genre uses it. Now I'm finding out from you that even countries using it So I don't think it's the same thing where you're going to say, oh, that's that AI sound. I don't see that happen I think that to me, you, I look at all this data, all these feelings people have The whole industry can't point to the thing that they're delivering We're going to ask for all the GPU's and all the power W rights and you can't buy a stick around ramM for a PC anymore. You can't point to the one thing that you made that's worth it You can point to everything. We're going to change everything and that everything is almost too diffuse. And I'm sort of wondering like when Sure Timberland's going to do an AI artist, but I already know what that artist is going to sound like and I already know how the audience is going to react to that There's not a sound, right? There's not a K pop of AI that's going to reorient the listener or the audience. That do you see anybody trying that? pushing on it? I don't know. I don't even know what that would look like I don't know what that The result of that is I think that you're going to see new different uses of the technology and people are going to continue to push the boundaries when you talk about Timberlland or Diplo or how they're using it, that's I mean, we're in one point zero version of this and people are just getting used to seeing it in their toolbox. And once people have access to it for a little while much like you saw the evolution of sampling. and it used to just be take the song and just sing over the whole thing. Now it's take a piece and chop it and flip it and reverse it and then speed it up and pitch it down. So you're going to see new uses of this tool, and that's when you'll start to understand what its real power is. Let's time I' talking about the Grammyys a little bit that's obviously the thing that recording Academy does is the thing that funds everything else We started by talking about your decision making process You made a big decision. You're going to leave CBS, Youre bring it to Disney and it's going to stream across platforms you talked about content explosion that we're in for. Just walk me through that decision. Why I make the change We'd been at CBS for Over fifty years, they've been great partners They were going through some ownership changes as you know, they were trying to figure out their focus was going to be and We also knew as a Grammy organization, we had expansive ideas and Ths where we thought we could go as a brand. We wanted to be more international, more global. We wanted to reach more music people. You're seeing in music genres or borders and languages are breaking down. There's music from all different parts of the world, K pop, Afrobeats, music from the Middle East, India, other areas Latin, of course. We knew we needed to continue to grow our organization and our reach, and we felt Disney and ABC would be a great partner for that. It also really aligns with what they're doing as they're expanding into new areas and new territories And they're a company that, I mean, I don't know about you. I've admired that company and the leadership over the last dozen years or more. how they've changed and how they've evolved, how they've kept up with technology, how they've always at the heart of that though, been true to the artists, been true to storytellers and they've been really passionate about making great things. So there was a lot of alignment for me personally and then also for our organization with Disney that just made logical sense. Was this a biding war? Were they the biggest track or were they There was in the best vibes. There were multiple people involved in wanting to be in media rights business with us which I'm very appreciative and thankful for. And I think that is a testament to the work that our organization has done, our board members, our staff and leadership over the last six years to get the organization to where we are, which was making sure we were relevant, making sure we were respected, making sure we were honoring music as accurately as we could. And so because of those things and our international opportunity in the availability of music in other parts of the world and our agency that we have to celebrate it, we were a desired property. And again, I'm fortunate for that It was not about the biggest check for us though. It was about making sure that we could fur our mission, perpetuate the right narrative out into the music community that we are here to serve music, people, uplift music because of what we talked about earlier, the importance of it and what I think music means to the world and to society. So Disney was a great partner because of that alignment Yes, there was a financial component because as you touched on, everything we do, our advocacy, our education, our music preservation, our legislation, all of our work around music cares, all that stuff is paid for by our media rights deal. So we have to get the right deal. And we are not for profit. A lot of people don't know that. We're not doing this for profit. We get the money that comes in the door and we push it back out into our music community to help music people. If you think about the LA wildfires, We did thirty million dollars of relief to music people who lost their houses or their instruments or needed medical care. So those are the things that drive our decision, my decision when it comes to doing a new media rights deal. One of the things I think about with award shows in particular is They were very powerful in what you might call the monoculture era. Everyone has seen all the movies, everyone has listened to the radio, everyveryone has heard most of the songs That is dwindling, right? Everyone's in a little filter bubble and whatever algorithmic platform list to whatever whatever TikTok hit that labels have paid to make big today That's making the award show. more diffuse product, right? You I can watch the Grammyys and I haven't heard of half the artists. How do you solve that problem? Because the value of the award show needs to stay high to fund all the other stuff? Well, as we touched on earlier, I still believe in live programming and live events and that is going to be a premium offering peopleople want to see things that are timely that you can't record and watch later because there's that social element of it. Did you see what happened on this stage or did you see who won this? So that's to me an advantage that we have that's similar to sports. When you watch a sporting event, you want to watch it in real time because you want to see who won and who played well or what were the stories So I hope and I believe truly that that is an advantage for an award show if done right as far as the diffusion and the different genres If we can make the show compelling and we can continue to tell human stories, which I think we've done over the last few years and our production partner Fullwell and Ben Winson have been instrumental in this You bring audiences to the show because they're compelled to watch the stories in the human interest elements and we're looking to expand that with our partnership with Disney I think that's an important component of it because it's not just about what song you love. It's about process, it's about who are the people that are making those songs and then to see it displayed in a way that nobody else can do. And I think we do that at the Grammys. So We should expect more. I know you produced the Michael Jackson documentary. We should expect more music biopics with Disney more short form artist, human interest stories with Disney. I'd like to think so. I'd like to think that we are partner with best storytellers around And using that platform and their expertise and knowledge and research and appetite for more music content is something that we are excited about And we want to tell more stories about music peopleople because to me, they're timely and they're compelling and it's what we need more of right now. So our hope is that Grammy Studios will continue to evolve and grow, produce more content