Commitment to Free Tools and Future

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Built with a long-lasting battery so you're not scrambling for an outlet. And with built-in intelligence that makes up dates around your schedule, not in the middle of it. Find technology built for the way you work at Dell.co.uk forward slash DellPCs. Built for you Support for the show comes from MongoDB. If you're a developer stuck fixing bottlenecks, instead of building the next big thing, then you need MongoDB. MongoDB is the flexible, unified platform that gets out of your way. It's acid compliant, enterprise ready, and built to ship AI apps fast. It's trusted by so many of the Fortune 500 for a reason. Ask any developer. It's a great freaking database. Start building at mongo db.com/slash build . Hello and welcome to Decoder. I'm Neil I Pat el, editor-in-chief of The Verge, and Decoder is my show about big ideas and other problems. Today I'm talking with Melanie Perkins, founder and CEO of Canva, the popular design tool. I always enjoy talking with Melanie. She was last on the show a couple years ago, just as the AI revolution was coming to the world of art and design. At the time, Canva had escaped a lot of the criticism leveled at competitors adding AI tools. Something Melanie attributed both to how much Canva users loved the product and also the fact that the company is making huge inroads into the business world. Canva is a tool that empowers non-designers to make design, and that group of people was just trying to get work done. They didn't seem nearly as threatened by AI as creative professionals using other creative software. Canva users may have even felt empowered. Well, now it's two years later. And it's safe to say that AI is all over modern design software, and a lot more people have had a lot more feel ings about AI in general. But Melanie and Canva are pushing even more aggressively into integrating AI. The company just announced a big new update that allows people to simply tell Canva what to make and have it go through various data sources like Slack and email to build presentations, documents, and other design materials. Those projects arrive as regular old Canva files, which you can edit at will. You'll hear Melanie come back to that idea several times, that having the output of the Canva AI system, the regular old Canva files, is a big deal, so that users can refine that work and make it what they actually need. The idea here, to borrow the company's tagline, is that Canva is quote moving from a design platform with AI tools to an AI platform with design tools. I'll let you all sit with that for a minute. Obviously, I dug into all of these ideas with Melanie and how she's thinking about Canva's relationship to the AI model providers, the cost of the token required to automate an app like Canva in this way, and the kinds of pricing that might lead to for users. These new AI tools are still in beta, so there's a lot to be worked out, but you'll hear Melanie say she's confident that Canva's growth and enterprise will continue to accelerate as more and more companies look for tools that automate tasks like making presentations. But of course, that's the same idea as a lot of other big AI players aiming for corporate dollars. And so Melanie and I talked a lot about whether Can va is the right platform to bring everything all together. Unsurprisingly, she thinks it is. Not least because she runs Canva using Canva. I also asked Melanie for an updated vibe check on AI and Design. Melanie is herself a designer , but poll after poll shows that people really do not like AI right now. And the fears around job displacement and being overrun by slop all come to a head in a piece of creative software that maybe doesn't require creatives anymore. Melanie had a lot of thoughts here as well, and I did my best to get her to talk about Adobe, which is also adding AI tools and raising prices. A deadly combination for the biggest player in the space. You tell me if I got a revite. There's a lot in this one. Like I said, I always enjoy talking to Mel. Okay, Canvas CEO Melanie Perkins. Here we go. Melanie Perkins, you are the founder and CEO of Canva. Welcome back to Decoder. Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here. I am very excited to talk to you again. It's been a couple of years. We were last on the show in 2024. We talked about AI and design and the feelings people have about AI and design. And I was looking at that interview again just to prepare for this one. And a lot of the themes are all the same, and then the facts surrounding those themes have changed so dramatically in the past two years. And on top of that, you have big news that I really want to dig into. So let's just start at the start. The last time you were on the show, I said, what is Canva? And you said Canva is an online design platform. And your news this week is that I believe the company is changing its own conception of itself. Tell us about that change and what led into it? So there are some things that are changing and there are many things that remain the same. So our mission is still to empower the world to design, and we're going to be doing that very much over the years to come. We but the t something that we've always believed is that we should take the latest and greatest technology, we should build the latest and greatest technology and put that into our community's hands and enable them to achieve their goals. And what is the latest and greatest technology has certainly changed over the last few years and so obviously AI is at the center of of that change but obviously the latest and greatest technology today is AI and so we're really exciting excited to be doubling down into that space. Alright but I'm looking at a press release that says we're moving from a design platform with AI tools to an AI platform with design tools. That seems like more than bringing the latest and greatest technology, right? It seems like a rethinking of what Canva' produsct is. Unpack that a little bit for me. Okay, so let's get into it. So when we launched Canva for the very first time, we really, one of the huge innovations that we had was moving from pixels where everything was very granular and required deep expertise to be able to move anything around to be able to design anything to objects where you could lay out a design. You could just have ideas for different objects. You could search our stock photography library, our illustration library, you could drag it onto the page, you could start with a template or start from scratch, you could collaborate and design. And now what we're really excited about is with AI, we're moving into the concept layer. So you can just take an idea, you can write it in, and then something can get created for you . But very importantly, you can still move into the Canvas object editor and lay things out, collaborate, edit away. And so we're really excited about bringing it to this third tier of concept editing, which we think will be extraordinarily exciting. So it's our biggest launch ever, and it becoming the system where work happens end-to-end. But still very importantly with design at its core. I was going deep the other day into the definition of design and to design is to mark an idea and really to mark an idea um is at the essence of design so we're really excited about bringing new tools and capabilities to be able to do exactly that so I have to ask you I,'m looking at the presentation about all of this. It was obviously made in Canva. I know you told me last time that you you the whole company works in Canva. Did you automate the creation of your own deck announcing the AI tools or did you make it all by hand? So what's really cool about this new product release, it can be one-shot generation and that is awesome. But the really exciting thing is it's actually also iterative. So it can lay out pages. So for example, you can take huge passages of text and then you can just lay that out with Canva AI. So you can actually be your companion, your creative partner as you're going through the process. So we didn't do it to just one shot generation for the entire deck, I have to say, but what we were able to do is like to use it for all the fine-grained edits, the laying out of boxes, um, and that sort of thing. So it's it really it helped with the deck. Um, but I think that's the exciting thing, is that I think one-shot generation is sort of like AI 1.0 and being able to do iterative, agentic orchestration is really um 2.0, so we're really excited about that and then turning it into the press release doc. And it's really great at helping to create like that first first draft for us and then we can use that to iterate iterate to collaborate because I think we we both certainly know and everyone knows that you know that one shot generation might be a helpful starting point but that really is the draft to then be able to iterate and refine from there. Yeah, I'm I'm curious about this. You know, I'm just looking at pictures of the interface. It looks like a chat bot. It can you can ask it all kinds of questions as you as you showed off. Make me a content plan, do a bunch of stuff for me out on these platforms. You can connect directly to the platforms and have it published for you. That feels like in in particular the cutting edge of marketing, right? Is automating the creation of assets and the publishing to platforms and collecting the data and iterating through that. But the interface is still a chatbot. And it feels like maybe that's gonna be the interface for everything forever. Did you did you experiment with other kinds of interfaces, or is it just the open-ended text boxes the end all be all of AI ? So I think that's where you know I was going through those three tiers of pixels, objects and concepts. I think that's what's really exciting to me is that we're in most chatbots out there, you're kind of like in a in a chat in a chat and you kind of go backwards and forwards asking for the same thing and it will regenerate the entire thing over and over again. It's kind of annoying. But with Canva AI, you've got the ability to have the conversational editing, which is extraordinarily powerful and brings completely new capabilities. But then you have the normal Canva that you know and love where you can just drag and drop, you can collaborate, you can do all your iterative editing, you can go and change a word here and update that and not having to prompt to do that. So it actually helps to make complex things simple by bringing it all together into one spot. So rather than having to, so um if you'll see in the interface there's Canva AI, it's like a brand new tab inside the editor, and so you can go there, you can dictate into your phone, you can do it on the fly, get that first pass, and then it will lay it out just in the normal Canva that you know and love, and then you can just edit that as you would typically do. After a lot of experimentation, that was where we landed. That it's just it's so powerful to be able to dictate, you know, for everyone's different accessibility needs, even accessibility needs on a day-to-day basis. Like sometimes now I can just be in like talking to my phone, ask it to generate something, and you can just do that on the fly, but then that creates a normal Canva design that you can collaborate, you can edit, you can use our hundred million plus stock photos and illustrations and drag and d rop and design that. So you know the really the the huge opportunity is this end-to-end workflow of being I would take an idea and turn that into finished usable work in one seamless platform. Yeah. Yeah. Can I ask just a question about the relationship to the for of the AI to the tools in Can va. And I'm gonna basically just do personal tech support with you. So I use Canva I used Canva this week. Uh my daughter's having a detective themed birthday party. Cool. And so we took photos of all our friends, we're gonna make wanted posters. And so I was like, I'm gonna talk to Melanie and I better use Canva to do this, right? It seemed very natural, so I could ask you very weedsy tech support questions. And it just in the version of Canva that I was using, it was clear that the AI tools operated in some places and not others, right? They weren't seeing the whole Canva tool palette. And very simply as background remover, which I believe is like one of your most popular tools. It's everyone's most popular tool. I could do it in some parts of Canva and not the other. I couldn't look at my sort of like finished layout and say, actually, can you just go ahead and remove the background from this photo? I had to get to where I needed to be and then ask the question. Is the new Canva AI, can it address the whole set of tools? Is it using Canva as a whole or is it still narrowly sliced? You hit the nail on the head with what we were doing with Canva 2.0, Canva AI 2.0. So it actually goes across the entirety of Canva. And it means so you were using Canva AI 1.0. I'm very excited to get your hands on Canva AI 2.0. We'll have to get you into the million, though I guess by the time this podcast out, we may be we'll have to make a special exception because it'll help you easy with exactly that. And so um you can say for your example for your wanted posters, create me the wanted poster and you can upload the photos and it can actually orchestrate all of the different tools um in Canva to be able to create that on the fly without you having to go to the different spots. But you can still go and like edit the different particular parts, the element editing if you want, but it actually is able to orchestrate it and then create a layered file in Canvas standard format. I think I understand how the user will see it. I think architecturally I'm very curious how you build the product that way. Because it it doesn't seem like there's like some industry standard way of saying now you can use this software. Like about half of the attempts I see are we're just going to take screenshots of everything and very slowly click around. And there's an infinite number of variations on that approach. There's the MCP approach, which everyone was really high on and seems to have arrived at whatever point it's going to arrive at, and now maybe half the industry is back at well we should just do APIs. What approach did you land on? So I think the reason we've been able to make so much progress in this space. Firstly was the decade of investment in this interoperable format. So being able to have this design format that spans presentations and whiteboards and docs and videos , the full gamut has been a really powerful part of when the when we launched the foundational model, the design foundational model, it actually is able to create across all of these different formats and is that layered file, which means that you can operate at a full design level, you can operate on a page level, you can operate on a like a photo level or text. And so the huge investment in that space is why we've been able to bring this to life with kind of AI 2.0. And it's there's an extraordinary amount of complexity behind the scenes. We've had hundreds of people working on this project for some years to get to this point in time, but I think that the the really important part is you know one of our engineers um described it as an orchestra because there's so many tools and systems under the hood that need to talk together um to be able to bringing that th to life. So when you say, I want to create a wanted poster for my daughter's birthday party, it will then be able to go and use background remover. It will be able to go and use all of the different tools to be able to assemble that. But from a user standpoint, they just get to say what they want, and then we go and do the hard work to achieve that goal. I'm just curious what what bet you made there. Because that it feels like the industry has not coalesced on a strategy. So is it actually clicking around Canva or is it is there some other way of the AI addressing the tools? I won't go into technical detail there because I think that we have we have had a few a f a few breakthroughs that made this all possible. Um I I g I I understand. That's why I'm asking. The other thing that I'm very curious about You have good questions. I will give you that. That's that's that's why everybody comes back. It's it's surprising. That's but it turns out uh it's a it's a fun game to play to see if I can get through the media training, Melanie. The other question I have is who the model providers that you have doing this are, right? Because we are hearing every single day that token use rates for a gentic software are through the roof. We're watching Anthropic have to modify its pricing. There's all kinds of stuff happening in that world. And you're launching an agentic AI product that just from the interface alone makes you want to use it a lot. It it but it it's not like and you know, anthropic literally has in Claude there's like a usage meter and you it it will tell you like you're done now. Or pay us more money. Are you gonna have like a token usage meter in Canva in the same way? Yeah, so we be you asked so many questions in that in that very short space of time. Well no, there's more there's more to come. Don't don't worry. We have been investing in the areas that we really need to. So becoming domain experts in design has been a really critical part of our research strategy. But then partnering with incredible companies that you know spending billions of dollars to build the best in their own areas and then bringing that technology onto Canva is also a key part of the way we're approaching this, being experts in design because that's where we really need to specialize, because there isn't great great technology in that space. And then we've got a hundred-person research team working very specifically on these problems themselves. On the AI credit front, we have different tiering available for each of the different packages. So in free you get a certain number of um you get limited credits and then in pro we get much more generous and then in um a business package you get far more generous and then enterprise more more so but actually for the first million users we're, giv ing everyone an AI pass, which we're really excited about. So it's a hundred dollar um monthly pass. We're gonna be giving everyone in that first million so they can just go completely wild and test out all of these new products. Um so we're really excited about to see how that is used and see where it takes them. Don't worry, we're gonna we're I want to come back to pricing because I have a lot of questions about it. But at first I just kind of want to understand the the the product a little bit more. The last time you were on the show, you were making the inroads to enterprise. Right? You would sort of relaunch for enterprise. And we talked a lot about how what you needed to do for enterprise was not necessarily product focused, but just workflow focused. You needed user authentication systems and management systems and dashboards and all that stuff and you had built it out. And that seems to be going really well. I think the numbers I have here are you're at four billion in annualized revenue, 500 million of which is enterprise. So in two years you've grown. Is that the part of the business that's growing the most? The whole company is growing very rapidly, but yes, enterprise has been growing extremely rapidly. We grew by 100% over the last year, 95% of Fortune 500 companies and getting really deep footprints with thousands of people at companies now which is extraordinary to see. We think that this with Canva AI 2.0 will radically change that. It'll be a huge step change again and becoming the system at the center of work. Really bring things together. I think a lot of people can relate right now. It feels like there's a lot of fragmented systems, things that are kind of in lots of different places. Being able to have that all on one platform, having that with all of the work and all of the designs and presentations and documents all in one place and with connectors being able to go even further and pull in context and information from your Gmail or your Slack, we think is going to be a huge step change for the way work gets done. Aaron Powell So that's the part I'm really interested in. The idea that a company is just a collection of disparate databases that are not well organized or managed, and that there's truth in those databases if only we could read them all at the same time. That's a big part of like the AI thesis in general. Like you hear it all over the place. I, you know, I work with a bunch of cranky reporters. I I don't think they put all their ideas in the databases, but like I get it, right? There's there's a sense that there's a lot of opportunity in the disparate data sources in a company. And you can bring them together at a platform and then take action on it and achieve some results. Is Canva the the right tool to do that vendor is going to say AI will connect all your databases and then there's Canva. And I'm I'm wondering if you want the whole the whole opportunity or just the design opportunity . Well to me design as we've just talked about before is I bringing creativityity and productiv together and being able to do that that in a way that we think is is pretty extraordinarily powerful. I mean I had my own experience of this of having the other day which I was like actually blew my mind. I was like, I had to answer a whole bunch of questions and I was like, they were going into like all sorts of different questions over the last decade. And then I was able to just type it into Canva AI 2.0 each of the questions and I was able to like construct answers based on all of my designs and all of my documents from the last decade. And it kind of blew my mind that, like, I was like, this is the only place that actually has this information about me. And so being able to have that full visual suite from docs to sheets, you know, whiteboards, presentations, all of that context. And then I guess the other thing is that when you think about it, most things kind of end up in a design form at of some description at the end of the process. And so being able to have all of that context right there beside the AI tools, we think is pretty powerful. Yeah, I think the the I'm the thing I'm curious about is where the primary interface for that lives. And uh you're obviously making the case that it should be Canva. It c it clearly is for the CEO of Canva inside of Canva. But I could bring the CEO of Slack on here and they would happily tell you that that is Slack. Or I don't know, Microsoft will tell you that they're gonna force feed copilot to you wherever you are using a Microsoft product, and that's where that should be. There's a lot of ideas about this. And one of the things that makes that messy in my mind is all of these products can now talk to each other in very specific ways. So Canva itself is a plugin for the other chatbots and it it seems like the usage of that plugin is very high. How do you think about who owns the interface in a world where the core toolset might be usable somewhere else entirely that also has access to all that data and all that uh information that the company might have generated? I the the key focus for us is always like how do we empower our community the most? How do we help them to achieve their goals? So we're already embedded in organizations and businesses all around the world and you know when they're creating a design today in Canva it's like quite a manual process you have to go to all these different fragmented tools collect all the information and so being able to have that just inside the design tools we think will make a great deal of sense because it means that you're not, it's just like cutting down manual and busy work, which is kind of always a thing that we're doing for our customers. Like when we launched, you know, some years ago, like 20 19, we launched Background Remover. And the whole point of that was you clicked the background remove button and then the background was removed. And it like that reduced a lot of manual work. And then again like with this release, it's kind of the same sort of thing. It's like there's a lot of manual work to go and collect all the information, collect all of the context, all in different places. And so having that just there where you're designing, we think makes a lot of sense, where you've already got like huge repositories of your images across your company, where you've already got all your brand templates, where you're already doing the collaboration, we think that makes a lot of sense. But really we just want to be putting the tools that help to reduce busy work in the hands of our community and helping them to achieve their goals with less clicks. A few weeks ago we had the CEO of Okta on the show, Todd McKinnon, and he was like, the next the future of Okta is managing agent permissions, because this is a security nightmare, and I will sell kill switches to every enterprise that has agents running rampant over its networks and databases. And so I hear what you're saying. It's like, okay, Slack is gonna have a bunch of agents that can go talk to uh uh Canva's database of images, Canva will have a bunch of agents that can go talk to Slack's database of conversations. Something else is gonna happen over here. Does that seem like a workable picture of a company of the future where all of these tools are sort of accessing one another independently? Or do you think it will natur ally land on just one? I think there will be I I think the cool thing is for consumers there's going to be choice about how they want to have their work stack set up. I think it's a really exciting time in technology because there's just so many new possibilities for way the way work gets done to reduce fragmentation. You know we've got a quarter of a billion people using Canva today so we think there's a huge opportunity to make AI simple and accessible just like we did with design but very importantly helping to empower people to achieve their goals and to communicate their ideas. So we think that we think we're we're we're pretty excited about what we're gonna be able to bring out into the world. Yeah. How does it work for you? Canva? You're obviously on the bleeding edge of this technology and you obviously have your own tool. How does it work for you? In what sense? Sorry. Do you do all of your tools have AI access to all the other tools, or do you work only in Canva and let Canva AI go talk to all the other tools? What's your setup? Oh yeah, since getting connectors, um like so you obviously canva's always had all my designs and my presentations and my documents, but being able to get connectors and being able to pull in for information has been pretty astonishing. So for example, being able to say, hey, like create me a plan for my next week and how I can optimize my time and it being able to go and read my calendar and then create me a document about my upcoming week. It was like there's a lot going on. And it told me I had a massage book and I was really surprised about that because I didn't actually know it until I read that in my Canva doc. And then I was like, oh, I think there's like a bug here. And then I realized that my partner organiz ed that. The bug is it's booking self-care for you whenever it wants. And so I think it's really cool because there's a lot of things that would be like very, very manual, like going and doing a calendar audit, um, and that all of a sudden can actually just happen inside the one thing and it can actually create the presentation or it can create the document and then you can have people collaborating on that. People talk about AI slop and I think the AI slop is often it's like one shot generation, you kind of just take that and you put it somewhere else. I think that what Canva has a really it's really exciting about with Canva is that that is really just the draft. That's the starting point. And then you can use it to iterate, you can use that you know through manual editing or you can use that through being able to iteratively edit through Canva AI inside the editor itself and like to refine it to really be able to clearly articulate your idea . So we we're pretty excited about the possibilities that it unlocks. We have to pause here for a quick break. We'll be right back. Support for this show comes from Quo. Spring cleaning can take many forms, and if you're a business owner, it's the perfect time to clean up some of the, shall we say, messier parts of your business? Streamlining your communications can be one of the fastest and easiest ways to get your company back in shape. Quo says they can help. Quo, spelled QUO, is the smarter way to run your business communications. Quo says they're the number one rated business phone system on G2 with over 3,000 reviews, specifically built for how modern teams work. 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The last time I asked you how you make decisions, you said you had a process called decision decks where you literally made Canva documents with all the pros and cons and you mocked up the products. Is that still the process? Uh that is still the process. Prototyping has become a very key part of it. So often now there's like a workable prototype um before anything gets launched. I think the really fun thing about I think I don't know if I talked to you about the complex decision making framework. No, this is new. This is actually okay. Well the this for anyone that needs to make complex decisions, I find this extremely helpful. It's like splitting it out into like what are the goals, then what are the options, what are the pros and cons for each of the options. But it's really fun because like now we have a template inside Canva, which is the complex decision-making framework doc . And you can literally just dictate using dictation through Canva AI, and it will actually go and fill out this template. So there's a lot of really exciting ways of like how you can take your ideas and like the thoughts in your head and then have that distilled in a way that other people can see and understand, which I guess is the essence of design. Like if you think about design in the sense of it, previously, you know, design can sometimes be thought of as like making things look pretty. But really, design is about expressing ideas and being able to communicate that effectively and being able to turn something from an idea into reality. And so we think all these new tools really help to facilitate that. You know, use Canva Code all the time. I used to do a lot of mock-ups and now create use canva code to create um prototyp es all the time for every idea that I have, which is pretty powerful because it it takes the idea far further than it could before. The last time I asked you about structure, I asked the other Dakota question is how the companies are structured. Last time you were about 4,500 people, and you described your structure as a very centralized product team and then lots and lots of local teams. And the metaphor you used was a cupcake. And you said, we work on the cupcake and we make the cupcake bigger and all the local teams work on the icing. Is that still a metaphor? Yeah, that's a fair metaphor. That one that one's been around for we uh the the cupcake and the icing is actually so applicable and so many different ways. These small empowered teams is really at the essence of how we get things done. We're very much a goal-oriented structure, so for example with Canva AI 2.0, we really brought everyone together across the company to achieve that goal and bring Canva AI 2.08 out into the world. And we do like show and tells every week so everyone can share and get deep context on what's happening. I think that like goals has really been at the essence of how we've achieved anyt How many people has Canva now? Oh, later start about 5,000. Okay, so you you you've been growing. Uh I'm really curious about you know just in that context, decisions and structure, how you made the decision to say, okay, we're gonna do Canva 2.0 and we're gonna lean heavily into AI the way that we're gonna lean into AI. Right. You that's a lot of people, it's a big decision. I imagine that there was a decision making slide or a deck. And then this feels like it sort of inherently is a top down decision. Like we're all doing this. Like Melanie says we're all doing this, we're all doing this. Walk me through that decision and walk me through any structure changes you had to make in order to accomplish it. Yeah, absolutely. So I'm gonna take us back to 2011 and to a deck that we had which was called Canvas Chef before Canva was even called Canva . And when you were uh the first slide, when you go into it, it's like, um, what do you want to chef up today? or oh and then you could type into a search box and you could the idea was that you could type whatever you wanted and then you'd pop into the editor and you could collaborate and you could um have the editing tools. It's if you if we sh share it with you after this, um you'll see it's like bizarrely similar to what we're launching today. So I guess this has been the dream for a really long time, but the technical ability to do this has been um has been hard. I'd say in 20 17 we had this document, we called it Getting Smart, and we're like, in the future, future, future, there's going to be search-driven design. Rather than going to the buffet and getting something, it'll be able to happen on the fly. Um like a chef cooking something up from the raw ingredients. And now it feels like we can actually do that. Back in October, we like we'd been researching into this space for some years. The foundational model, that was a huge step, the design foundational model that was a huge key piece but then in October there was a significant breakthrough in the company that meant that we could actually do it. So as soon as we saw that we were all like oh my goodness this is really exciting and groundbreaking for what Canva can unlock. And so that was when we really started to go all in and realize that that that technology needed to be pushed as far as it could go, which is what we're launching today. Did you did you send out an email? Did you send out like a Canva DAC being like, we're doing this now, decision made. How did that work? That is a great question. Um how did we So there was a team working on it already, and then we really bolstered up that team so then we were like okay we need to get every single person that can possibly help bring this to life onto the project and we started the weekly show and tells um and we you know turned it into a more of a centralized AI team with then hundreds of people that went from a smaller team to then many hundreds of people um to to bring it to life, everyone working on the different parts um that needed to to become part of this orchestra. So yeah, I'm curious. What like that part, that structure part seems really interesting to me, right? We have a software tool, a you know, standard sort of deterministic software tool with a select box and a text arrow, all that stuff. And we're gonna build an AI that can use that tool . Now we've got to take all the engineers we had and point them at that problem. Did you have to rethink your product team or did you just make it bigger, the team that was working on that part? Um I think it it i a little bit of both. Like we ni once the team had this big breakthrough, then w and we and we all saw it in action, we were like, my goodness, this is the coolest thing ever. And then we had to figure out like who could actually help from across the company. And I think that's the goal-oriented structure I was meaning before is that I was mentioning before is that when there's a goal then you need to figure out like who are the people that can help bring this to life and then everyone that's where then we were doing the weekly show and tells so everyone can get a really clear understanding of like where everything is at, all the pieces that needed to be orchestrated to come together. I think Canva already being interoperable meant that there was a lot of these things that had already been built um and that then could just be c come together in a in an exciting way. We we do something called um the cavajigsaw we've been doing different variations of the cavage jigsaw since the earliest days which is like it's often a goal and then all the pieces that need to be worked on independently to be able to bring that to life. And that was exactly what we had at the center of this project again. You're fundamentally a software CEO. I think that's a fair description. I think you make software. The nature of software development itself seems to be going under some kind of existential crisis. One of our designers here at the Virgin Box Media described all software development now as calibrating yourself to a datab ase and just like talking and seeing what happens and maybe that'll turn your brain to mush. Are you using as much cloud code or codecs to make Canva as it it seems like every other company is racing to do? Yeah, so I use Canva Code really extensively from the perspective of like when you say Canva code, that's your own coding product. You're not using cloud code or Because it's so cool. So what you can do, like now, like rather I used to create mock-ups all the time. Like anytime I had an idea, I'd like to create a mock-up. And now anytime I have an idea, I can use Canva Code. But with this latest release, you can actually go in and edit the text. So you can actually code something, you can edit the text, you can drag and drop, you can move things around. Yeah, we've been really investing heavily on the AI front and upskilling our team. So can you make Canva with Canva code? Yeah, we do make Canva with Canva code. Not deployed. We have many incredible engineers that actually make it sound to go out to um hundreds of millions of people. But we we use it for prototyping all the time. Aaron Powell Yeah. The nature of software engineering is changing in some big meaningful way due to the in particular the coding tools that are available. Are you rethinking how that works inside of Canva as you ship new versions of Canva? Because every other software CEO I talk to is their their minds are exploding. They don't quite know how it's going to go, but they know it's definitely going to change forever. I think you know one of the things that we've invested really heavily in is continuously upskilling our team and systems. So we've we've taken a very intentional approach to give all of our team access to all of the latest and greatest tools. So we actually have like not selected a winner, we have just like given them everything. And it's been very intentional because we want everyone to be playing with the latest and greatest and to be upskilling all the time. We need to be upskilling each one of our every one of our systems. We need to be upskilling um because like the way we build product is completely different today. The way we do QA is completely different today. The way we you know do actually every system and process inside the companies had to have like an AI native transformation. And so there's an every specialty inside the company has had to have an AI native transformation, what a designer does today, what an engineer does today across every single part of the company. So it's been a huge area of investment on the tooling, on giving our team time, on the specialties. We've had this focus on AI everywhere and then AI impact and now AI native because we really want to be rethink ing everything in this AI era. There's some sort of rebalancing of power between product managers, designers, and engineers because AI lets them all do each other's jobs. Where have you landed on that inside of Canva? I think you know we're all here to build the best experience we can. And you know, I think having really solid expertise is it's never been the best way to build product. In fact, great PMs often think about the design perspective, great engineers often think it's about things from a design perspective. So really it's about the team that are like there to like just create the best thing possible. And you know having people in their separate siloed isolated lanes and say like that's my territory was never a great way to build product and so I think that with AI it's really leaning further into that is like everyone thinking about like what is the best product experience that we can build and everyone will bring different skills to the fore so a designer will obviously have a certain expertise, a PM will have a certain expertise, an engineer will have certain expertise, but we've always thought of it as a bit of a team sport where the best idea should be winning and everyone should be collaborating to create the best outcome that they possibly can for us So I I understand the this sort of positive case for AI, why you made the decision. I understand the the product promise of just tell this box what to make and it will make you a first draft and you can go on from there based on the data you have. There's a pretty significant downside to AI, particularly as it relates to brand. Like there's polling here in the United States at least that basically is just bad vibes around AI. Like the last MBC news poll that we are constantly citing is AI is pull undering ice in terms of favorability and just above the war in Iran. That's not a great place for AI to be as a concept that as favor als aren't favor als. People are voting against data centers in their communities. AI is widely associated with job loss, and maybe now you're gonna cause some enterprise job loss because social media teams don't need to be as big as they needed to be anymore. There's a lot of layoffs that are being blamed on AI across the board. You're leaning into AI with Canva, right? They're like you're you're rebranding the whole product is having AI in it. How do you think about that downside risk that people don't like it? The more they're exposed to it, the more they're saying, wait, stop, I don't want this around me . I think it's kind of like any tool. It will be whatever you want it to be. And so if you want it to help empower people, if you want it to help deliver better experiences for your customers if you want it to uplift students and to give them great quality education materials, it can do that. And I think that's Wait, can it do that? I'm actually not so certain about the student thing. We launched something called LearnGrid and Learn Grid enables um across many countries to be able to have the curriculum aligned um content created and that can be worksheets that can be immediate feedback and it's free. So we're really excited about being able to put these tools in teachers and students' hands around the world. We've got 100 million teachers and students using Canva today. But the access to great tools is like very divergent depending on the wealth of a school, for example. And so we're really excited about being able to bring that accessibility to students around the world. Right, but I think my my question there is it's more of this the slop question, right? Like people are experiencing the tools that exist today, and maybe mostly they're experiencing the free version of ChatGPT or whatever AI overview Google puts in front of them running on the cheapest possible model at the biggest possible scale. And they are they're having these experiences. And I I know that you know the industry likes to say most people have never used AI and certainly no one's paying for it, but like a billion people have used chat GBT and then the polling is the polling. I'm I'm just sort of wondering how you're thinking about communicating this is an AI product because it to me feels like that comes with all kinds of baggage. And I'm watching OpenAI buy T B PN 'cause they think they have a marketing problem. Right. I'm I'm watching all the venture capitalists be like the media's lying about AI and it's gonna change everything for the better. And then you're like racing into being like Canvas AI now. And I I I think you know that a bunch of designers are gonna be very unhappy about this. Right? There's some people who are gonna just say this is bad, they're ruining the product. And I'm just wondering how you are thinking about navigating that balance . I think you know there's going to be a plethora of opinions on any on any topic. What we always do is just like put what our community want and need at the center of it. So we've had a lot of people asking, you know, even yourself quite specifically. You're like, I've got this goal, why can't Canva AI just know everything about it and be able to help me with that first draft? And so that helping people to achieve their goals is always going to be at the center of what we do. And that's exactly what drives these sorts of decisions, is like being able to like take out a lot of the manual work from being able to you know create lay things out so really believe that AI should accelerate your vision and creativity not override it and I think that's really important that like AI is just like another tool in our toolkit and it will help achieve our goals if we choose to use it. And so we've been really intentional about the product design. Like Canva AI is a new tab. So if you just come in and you love templates, you can use that. If you come in and just love the elements and just like creating things from scratch. That's totally fine. That's totally cool. If you want to be able to express an idea just like by through dictation or through typing, you can do that too. So I think it's really important that like we understand that every c every one of our community members is like at different stages and different scales of comfort with AI, and so we want to be we want to be making sure that we're helping to facilitate that. So I think there's this is like the full spectrum and it's really important that you know Canva isn't turning into a chat bot by any stretch of the imagination. But if you do want to be able to just chat to something and have it help you out, you can do that too. So, you know, really enabling all of that. I think, you know, I can't speak for other companies out there in the world, but I, you know, Canva has benefited greatly from an incredible community. We've got you know quarter billion people that use Canva each month. Um, there's a lot of love for our product. And I think that that love really comes from being able to have Canva be the thing that helps people to express their ideas and turn that into reality. And we take that extremely seriously. So with all of these product developments, we are continuing to keep that at our core and empowerment is like you know such a critical principle for us um that is is very much through everything that you'll hopefully be seeing and touching very so on. We've got to take another short break. We'll be back in just a minute. Support for this show comes from Rippling. Too often, apps that call themselves all in one are far from it. Rippling is here to make things a whole lot simpler. It's the unified platform for global HR, payroll, IT, and finance. With Rippling, workflows that normally bounce between a handful of tools and departments actually do just happen in one place, automatically. Here's an example. You have an employee getting promoted. Ripling can update their payroll taxes, manage any new app permissions, ship them any new device, issue a new corporate card, and assign trainings. All in one platform. No jumping between apps. 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Influential journalist Karis Wisher is taking a hard look at the longevity industry to separate the influencer hype from evidence-backed science. In her new CNN original series, Kara's talking to Silicon Valley Power Players and trying out the latest in anti-aging technology to see what works and what's a waste. Kara Swisher wants to l ive forever. New episode streaming Sundays with a CNN subscription. Go to CNN.com/slash subscribe to start watching. Hi, I'm Brene Brown. And I'm Adam Grant. And we're here to invite you to the Curiosity Shop. A podcast that's a place for listening, wondering, thinking, feeling, and questioning. It's gonna be fun. We rarely ag That's true. You can subscribe to the Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app to automatically receive new episodes every Thursday . Welcome back. I'm talking with Canvas CO Melanie Perkins about how weird it is to do automated marketing with AI right now. Let me ask you about the the competition , because you're describing goals in you know when I when I talk to executives and they describe goals and what people really want, we you often realize you're talking about business software, right? And you your enterprise is growing for you and this very much feels like an enterprise offering to me. Like you're gonna connect to all these other systems and you're gonna get some work done and you're gonna do work. That's what this feels like to me. And I know Canva has a big consumer base and a lot of people have fun with it, but this feels like a work product. Is AI fundamentally enterprise software? To me, like I don't think the people yearn for automation in their like personalized. Like I think you want to get rid of busy work at work so you can do something more important. And a lot of work is inherently repetitive, and all AI just makes a lot of sense in this zone. Do you think AI is fundamentally enterprise software? I think you're you're right. Like Canva AI will totally be the system at the center of how work gets done. But that doesn't mean that if you're creating those wanted posters for your daughter's party, you can't be like, pull the invite list from the party coming up. And just like wanting that to kind of this implies that I have a good access to the database of the eight-year-old girls coming to my house next weekend. But yeah, it often will be uh about work. And you know, work means many different things to many different people. So work can mean um a teacher in a classroom at work can mean at a large company work can mean a small business trying to just get their market ing collateral created. I think you know we've gone from broadcast communication where everything is like one to many to being able to have like a hairdresser, being able to send out a a campaign on someone's birthday to say here's a special voucher for your birthday, that particular thing that you like. You know, being able to have that much more personal communication I think is a is another aspect It does feel to me like the cutting edge of in particular social media marketing is automation in this way. And I have probably watched more TikToks and Instagram reels of social media managers explaining how they have built incredible dashboards using AI tools, automated entire workflows, built content pipelines. You can see it. There's something very important happening there. Presumably, Canva will participate in that and they will build those tools inside of Canva. Right next to that is Meta itself and TikTok itself and YouTube itself, who are all working on tools exactly like this. Uh Mark Zuckerberg in 2025, I'm just gonna read you this quote. He said this to Ben Thompson. In general, we're going to get to a point where if you're a business, you come to us, you tell us what your objective is, you connect to your bank account, you don't need any creative, you don't need any targeting, you don't need any measurement. You tell us the results you want and we will give them to you. You except to be able to read the results that we spit out. That's a redefinition of advertising. That is they're describing to some extent your product, right? They're you tell it what you want to achieve and AI is gonna make a bunch of cre ative and schedule it across their platform. I I know TikTok is working on this. I know YouTube is working on this. They all see this thing that they can sell to their biggest clients, their advertisers. How do you think about competing with the platform's own native capabilities that look a lot like what Canva is trying to make for marketers in particular. It's actually funny, it sounds like, you know, back in 2012 we had this pitch and we called it we had the design engine and we said like all these other platforms are gonna like um have tools and they did like for the lots of companies have lots of different tools for like a specific platform but it's kind of annoying because as a company, you probably want to be advertising in lots of different places, you probably want to be having your pitch decks and your docks and all the different things, and you don't want to have that fragmented across lots of different tools and systems. And so you know, Canva, it's kind of everything in one place rather than having to go and have your knowledge in lots of different places. So that's I guess one of the key things that we've been leaning into for the last decade is that Canva can be that thing that is at the centre of your of your work So the back and forth there is these platforms either have bad analytics or are not very generous in sharing their analytics or make you pay extra to access their analytics. Uh Meta obviously has its own models. Google obviously has its own models . They might say, look, if you wanna run this creative, you gotta make it in our tools, right? If you wanna use this stuff, we will throttle you if you come to us with creative Mate elsewhere. We're gonna push you towards our tools. So you use our models and we get we get two bytes at the Apple on token pricing. I I've heard this from a bunch of AI COs that database access in general, is gonna become a new pricing vector, right? We're going to charge tolls. You want to connect to our system, you got to, you know, the customer will have to pay some higher access fee. Have you seen any glimmers of this yet, or is it too early to say? I'd say A, it's too early, but B, I think that hopefully the customer wins out of all of this. Like hopefully the customer is able Hopefully the customer is able to achieve their goals and you know use the tools that they want to use and um you know I guess at the end of the day, all of this is hopefully about you know why I've been so infatuated with design is like design is imagining the future and then um willing it into existen ce. And design really radically helps that process. And so you well, I guess you know you mentioned optimism. I think that's why I love design so much is because you kind of you do have to imagine the future that you want and then you can work to bring it into reality Yeah. I I just I the reality is Mark Zuckerberg exists and he's very, very, very competitive, right? Like the there's also that piece of it. And I think I also like my I think I from our experience they love to have creative because creative is the blocker. Did you say they love money? I heard you. Uh wellell I mean look it it it is like um I know a lot of social media people who take it as an article hang on let me let me give a little excellent parody on that they like to be out like they're not gonna stop advertisement like their their company is built on advertising and so they're going to want to take creative from wherever um to have it on their platform. In fact create you know the lack of companies being able to create great advertising materials has been a huge blocker from people being able to advertise on their platform. And so I don't think they're gonna be sad about creating it in Canva. Okay. I'm curious how this this one plays out. Because the the other thing that I see meta doing is investing heavily in AI, like themselves. And they are every week he you know Zuck has spent another 200 trillion dollars hiring three AI researchers who are going to build him the best model. And like who knows how that will pay off? The same way who knows how any of this will pay off. But one way it could pay off is for him to say , if you want to buy advertising on our platform, you're gonna generate it with our AI models. And because we own the model, we can charge you less than Melanie, who has to go buy tokens from someone else and pay their margin and pay her margin . And you can just see how that would like I know a lot of uh social media managers who are fully convinced that they need to make their vide os in Instagram's edits app because Instagram will promote it more heavily. Even if they're not actually making the videos, even if they're just feeding it through to get whatever little metadata that says edits. And like maybe that's true, maybe it's not, but the the perception of meta as a platform, the perception of YouTube as a platform is that they will self-preference in this way. So if they're also the model providers and they can have lower pricing and the perception of self-preferencing, how how do you expect to come up against that ? Let's check back in in a few years. Okay . I kinda thought that's what you would say, but I it's just I see it coming, right? Especially for Meta, which has to find some way to make money with the model that they're building. And as of yet, I don't know what it is, except for maybe they're doing reels targeting on GPUs. Yeah, I can't speak for them and their business model, but I can certainly say, you know, from a customer's perspective, being able to create all of the content that you want in one place having little friction between that being able to deploy into lots of places it's the it's the you know what we've been specializing in I'd say for the last decade and you know certainly being able to take that to other platforms has been great for our customers, but then also great for the other platforms because then they are able to have all these people that can do their marketing on those platforms. The last time we talked to your model provider was OpenAI, I believe. Is that still the primary partner? We partner with OpenAI and the Anthropic, and then of course our own internal models. We we love to collaborate with everyone. Yeah. Do you are their models interchangeable or do you use them for specific tasks inside of Canva AI? We always take the best model at the uh for the best task continuously. So that's you know, it's been great to have so many great partners in the space, you know, from Google to Anthropic and OpenAI. My sense of the situation is that every token costs the big companies money, that they're they're all subsidizing token use. At some point, that's gonna turn, right? They're gonna they're gonna wanna make a penny a profit on every token. What does that do to your pricing when that happens? So investing in our own models has been a really core part of our strategy, and we were able to bring the cost down, the latency down. Um, so that's been a and and the price is being driven down radically. Like if you look at the price of an of LLM queries, it's grown down 50 times in the last three years. So it's pretty exciting from that standpoint of having so many big companies racing to provide the cheapest models. Yeah, it's been a really important area of investment, which is why we've you know got our own research team of a hundred people that are um investing in the areas that we need to. So for example, you know, I was mentioning the design side, like magic layers was from our um own research org. It's yeah been really exciting to to invest in the areas that other companies aren't. We don't need to go and compete in areas that there are billions of dollars of investment already happening but in the areas that we know we can give great advantage to our customers, we certainly do that. So magic layers was you can now take any image from wherever you might generate it into Canva and then it will actually split it out into layers so you can just edit it like a kind of a template. Does that does magic layers happen on your models or is that are you going out ? Yeah, no, that's that's certainly our models. That's really cool. When you were when you've made the decisions to invest in your own models versus going out to other providers . Is there a cost performance ratio? Like how do you make that decision? Because investing in your own models is expensive. It is expensive, but like for example, Magic Ways has had 8 million users in the four weeks since launching. And it just it really hit a pain point that people had, which was that you know you'd generate something and you have to go and reprompt the LLM over and over again to be able to do it. So being able to like just go in and make that tiny little text tweak or you know to be able to collaborate or whatever it might be um has been really important. So I guess you know every time we're choosing a model it's like what is the best in the world what you know we want to have price brackets for each of the different um different areas of our company. So you know what different models you can choose your premium models or you can choose the standard models. So we are domain experts in design and visual AI, and so that's been really the focus of our research and development. I'm actually curious, I don't even know who you're gonna name. Who's our biggest competitor? I think it's Adobe. I I I think it's Adobe. I think in the world of creative software for professionals, it's obviously Adobe. And maybe Canva is more consumer than that. Who do you think your biggest competitor is? I shouldn't have opened that question up, should I? I should've let you just go. You walked right into this. I know, I know. I like you know, we when we set out years ago, we were like there's this huge gap in the market. Um there wasn't tools that enabled easy design that was rapid and and enabled creative freedom. And I think that that's exactly you know with kind of AI 2.0, bringing creativity and productivity together, having being this place where you can get all of your work done in in one place , they're really, I I don't really think of it as competitors. They're our our community of a quarter billion people that we need to satisfy and help them achieve their goals. We really focus on running our own race and filling the gap in the market. I guess No but you have to answer who's your biggest competitor? Who's our biggest competitor? You can't be a four billion dollar company with no competitors. That's not a choice. I think like the way we think about it, it would be actually a a a bad business decision to be like, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna go and create this product that another company has created. That wouldn't make any sense. We literally go in and we say like where is the gap in the market? Where are you just currently having to get it? I like what you're doing and I appreciate it and it's very good . But it has to be sub one. Who do you want to take market share from from and who might take market share from you? I think there's a lot of fragmented tools right now and having that in one place, I think is gonna be the gap in the market that we fill. Were you born this way? You're like such a pro. It's very good. I don't I I've never I'm I'm impressed. My the reason I'm asking about Adobe specifically. Who's it? Who do you who you can name? Who do you think? I'll I'll let you say whoever you think. I do th I do think it's Adobe. Um and I the the specifically, you know, when you when I think about the Canva community, it's a lot of people who need to make something as consumers or as a one-off at their company, and they kind of graduate to the full suite. Right. And you I think we've we have talked about that journey for a lot of folks. And you know, when I was young, getting my first legal Photoshop license was a a marker I think Premiere is a marker for a lot of creators, right? Being able to afford that software. And I I think Adobe is a different kind of company. And maybe you you don't think they are a competitor, but they occupy the same space for a lot of creatives in a lot of ways. And they their products line up right with yours, right? You can prompt Photoshop in exactly the way that you were talking about prompting Canva. And Adobe will tell you that its PDF business is that is the best business database that has ever existed in the history of the world. And they're gonna line it all up. Like I know what they're gonna do. One of the things that I think is the most interesting when I when I line up these two companies is in general, people love Canva . And I I think that is on balance is true. I'm very curious to see how that goes once you put AI in front of everybody. Like I was saying, I think that there's some risk there. And in general, people are really mad at Adobe all the time. That is just the nature of those two companies, the way they're situated right now. So I gotta ask you, Jonathan and Ryan is leaving Adobe. He announced he's going, we don't know who the new CEO is going to be. Who do you think the next CEO of Adobe should be? I definitely can't comment on that. Yeah, you can be you? No, definitely not. Maybe you can, but then we w No, nobody wants me to be in charge of PDFs in in the world. Like you don't want that at all I'm but I'm asking, like if you you're looking at this, there's a leadership change coming. Do you see that as an opportunity? Do you see that as your