Public Sentiment and AI Anxiety

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Learn more at windows dot com slash student offer Law supppplies last ends june thirtieth turnerms at aka. mS slash collllege PC This Father's Day, do more with Dad and spend less with low prices guaranteed at the Home Depot. Get him fired up with a new grill and accessories, like the next Grill five burner for just do two hundred ninety nine dollars, so you can spend more time together while he becomes the grill master he was always meant to be, or build memories with savings on top brand power tools so you can tackle projects side by side Gift more and do more together this Father's Day with help from the Home Depot. Ecludusive delly at Homekeepper d. com slash pressmatch for details Hello and welcome to Decoder. I'mana Pelllletit andie of the Verge and Coder is my show about big ideas and other problems. Today I'm talking with Google and Alphabet CEO Sundar Pachi. In a conversation we recorded just after the Google IO Developer conference. This is the fifth year Sundar and I have sat down after IO, and it's become one of my favorite deceoder traditions. There's always a lot of news at IO, and this year was no exception Google has powerful new Gemini models, it's putting AI agents and everything, and it's making huge changes to search on both the web and YouTube that will once again reshape the information ecosystem. That's a lot to talk about, and Suno and I got into all of it. But I also realized that it's been a long time since I'd asked Suno the decoder questions about structure and decision making. So I started there You'll hear Sundo say he realized he needed to rethink how Google worked a few years ago in response to chat GPT. and he made a lot of executive changes and big decisions to get the company in a more aggressive posture. Of course, we also talked about all of those search changes, and how it seems obvious that the future of Google search is bringing things like the new intelligence search box together with Google's new Gema My Spark agent platform that searches can set off tasks, not just deliver results. That's exciting, but it seems likely to yet again change the dynamics of the open web. If you're at aoder listener, you know that I coined the term Google zero a few years ago. That's the idea that Google traffic to websites would zero. answered more and more queries directly on the search results page. That's gone from an idea that soon got batted away in previous interviews to something that the entire media industry is grappling with The CEOs of major publishers like Konde Nast are not publicly saying they're planning for a world of zero search traffic from now on Google is also training its models on YouTube videos and changing YouTube search to summarize and index videos so that they get dropped directly into the relevant parts. That's short to cost some creator angst. So I asked Sundar if he's ready to fight the same battles with YouTubers nt is with publishers. Finally, I had to ask Sundar about Google Deepmind CEO Dennis Asavis ending the IO keynote by saying that we are at the foothills of the singularity. It's no surprise that Sundar agrees with Dennis, but his thoughts on the timeline to AGI are worth paying attention to. Like I said, this is one of my favorite episodes to do every year, because Sundar is always game to actually take the questions and even look at search results Songas thing I think you're really gonna to like this year's conversation. Okay, Sar Pachai, CEO of Alphabet and Google. Here we go Soever try the see of alphabet and Google. Welcome back to Decoder It Great to be here. N nice to see you again, Nila. Yeah, this is one of my f yearly conversations. I think we've done I almost five times. Wow. I quite didn't realize it's been five times, but I enjoy it. Thanks again. Yeah. I want to start with a little bit of a lightning round. I was thinking about this. We've talked a lot. We always get deep into the weeds of the web and search and big hey ideas, and I realize I have not asked you the decoder questions in quite some time And just looking back to our previous conversations, in Google itself, you've made quite a lot of changes to Google. I think a number of your direct reports have changed over time. You've obviously restructured deep mind Platforms and devices and Android has been restructured itself Tell me how Google is structured It is Google an alphabet. You know, obviously we have alphabet as well. But broadly I think about about it as U You know, there are three main businesses in Google Search Tube Cloud U There are enormous platforms we run which is Android Chrome and the whole area to do with it Powering it all is all these important technology areas, which is AI and infrastructure work Um And then you have the functions to to go with it But a high level, you can think of it as uh, you know, seearch YouTube, Google Cloud and then our big computing platforms. those are the main main groups and obviously powered with Google Deepmind and our infrastructure teams So that's one simple way to get a mental model around it. Of course we have other bets beyond that, Vayo being the most prominent of them all, but there are many, many other bets like isomorphic labs and so on. I'm going to sayay focus on the Google of it. I feel like we could do an entire hour on alphabet and how that's structured and how that works as a public company with many bets. But just to say focus on Google for one second. The knock on Google historically is this is a company that ships lots and lots of products, you cance sell lots of products There's not tons of focus. There's like thousands of names of different products that are overlapping in kinds of different ways And where that comes from at least, in my view is that you do have these big infrastructure bets. You have all these capabilities, and the people running the businesses can use those capabilities to spin up products And there's maybe not a lot of overlap or central planning on Or did we launch two of the same thing How do you resolve that tension? It does seem like Google has gotten a little more focused that is the company's culture, right? We're going make a of bets and see which ones work. How does that resolve for you There's a lot of intent in what we do too, I think It's not an accident You know, we have thirteen products with a billion users each and we've been as committed to those products longer term You know, you can go back and think about when GMmA launched or Maps launched or Google Docs launched or search launched or Chrome launched and like, you know, so I've been we've been deep and consistent in many, many areas over a long period of time as well. Um I do think One way I've internalized in the AI moment is for the first time we have such a common infrastructure powering all of them. U with our Gemini models and the underlying AI infrastructure So we are more able to intently, you know, with intent do things which cut across things, right? So Personal intelligence is a great example of it It's one effort Obviously users get a choice to turn it on in each of the products But you know, it's built with one common infrastructure so that it works consistentlyross across your products. The underlying Gemini models itself is an example of it. we are able to bring that model in the context of the products, like ask maps in the context of Um you know, the maps product But a lot of the technology powering it, the voice stack, the model, the intelligence is all one work U so which is why I think the AI moment offers us a new, really new way to think about it and not just across Google, across alpha, but too over time I think that's what makes this moment so uniquely powerful is that you can invest so much in R and D and infrastructure and develop a technology, which then you can apply across all these areas Uh, you know, obviously context in which they are useful for users underlying technology platform is common. So there's a lot of intent that way uh and and so on You have to give room for innovation. otherwise Sow allowving room for innovation where teams on the margin are able to ship some new features Sometimes you later work to harmonize them. take Nodebook, Nordbook LM Notebooks are now showing up in Gemini, right? And like, you know, you know, it's effectively projects as notebooks And you can create a notebook in Gemini, you can go to Nordebook alumn, you will see the same notebooks vice versa. So that's an example of where you innovate it first and then you are harmonizing later. I was watching the Kyno yesterday and I saw a lot of intent and confidence from Google. We have this core technology, we can express it in lots of ways It's still essentially Googlely. like there's lots of products Lots of Gemini words. I'm going to figure them all out. I promise I would contrast three four years ago, when You know, there was the chat GBT moment. Everyone worried about what Google would do, could open assh up and take your market share and search away Bet that and now You have changed Google, right? You have restructured it. There are new people in leadership roles Connect those dots for me. How did you think about, okay, I need to actually change how the company works with the competitive moment you were in that got you here It's a great question. Look, I think for me, I always internalizeed that moment. It was stuff to convey it outside But I was u you know, we had set the company, you know, I had pivoted the company to be AI first We had all the ingredients. So in some ways, I felt like the overturn window had changed People were adopting these technologies faster than we had expected And so T me it was a about to go and actually express oursel through our products. I realized we had to organize ourselves for it. And going back to my earlier point, I realized we need a core models and a core infrastructure team powerower everything we are doing across Google. So a lot of my initial energy was to go set that up one AI team We had world class research teams in Brain and Deep Mind Bringing that together as Google Deepmind Uh you know, which was, you know, harder than it sounds because it's like saying Go put Stanford and MIT together and create a department out of it or a university out of it. So I think doing that well And then at that time, I also set up with Amin Vadat, who's our SVP of AI infrastructure now U a centralized infrastructure team. which is which has paid great dividends And then another evolution was realizing we need a chief AI architect. kind of architect this technology across Google. Kori you know, taking on that role as well So those were important changes We obviously, you made sure search needed to move faster search was split across many leaders, so pulling it under Elizabeth Reid with Nick Fox being responsible for the overall area Josh Woodward coming to help it help at our labs product and working on Gemini later. driving innovation as well as you, obviously have extraordinary leaders in the company, other leaders like Philip Schindler, who runs all our operations and so on. So it is stepping back and end to end thinking about the structure and make sure we are set up well for this moment where we need to move faster as a company. whichich meant we needed to make faster decisions I set up these new product reviews once a week Um these were, you know, they were AI product reviews, making sure We are intentful about how we apply this technology, where we apply them and wanted to review everything firsthand thing to do with AI you were shipping to users went through that channel. And I spent time directly with whoever was working on it You have a decoder question ask everybody is about decisions. You're describing a lot of big decisions someome of them uncomfortable as you change people around. How do you make decisions? What's your framework Part of my framework is over time understanding that There are very, very few decisions which are really consequential. and most decisions aren't So what matters much more is that you make the decision because that's what determines the velocity of an organization And so the more you're able to make those decisions company moving forward you're generally better off Of course there are a few decisions like combining and setting a Google Deep mine. you know, those are more consequential and you want to take your time deliberating and doing it. But a lot of decision making is about just making them And And so the more you're able to do that you do develop over time some pattern matching and, you know, some intuition for you've seen a version of the problem before. And so I think it's good to rely on that and separate the signal from the noise So that the signal is that this is a really important decision and you want to really deliberate around it This is was just may look big but it is more a normal course of action you need to take. Yeah I'm lookingoo around the industry, your peers in big tech have some of the wildest org chart ideas I've ever heard in my entire life I think Ma wants to have fifty engineers report to a single manager with the power of agents Jack Dory at Block wants all six thousand people to report to him Are you having similar thoughts that you should invent some of the craziest org charts with AI ever Look, I think leaders and people are incredibly important. And I think our companies depends on what the companies. some companies are have a much more narrower suite of products. And so, you know, different structure may work when you're running something at the scale of takeake the scale of Google Cloud I think it's important that there is a CEO in charge and you know we are serving all the top enterprises in the world at a scale, you know So how do how do you set up for that? So I think I think I think great leaders end up mattering a lot like we have Thomas there So I do think I think thinkink about it. but what I do think about it is how are we using AI more effectively and We've seen the transition internally, particularly amongst our developers where we have transitioned from using AI tools to assist coding to them a portion of the engineers working directing teams of agents effectively more and more And so I think those are transitions underway. And I think that will flow beyond just engineering into the rest of the organization. it's already happening. L even the work we are doing in Gemini Sark is to give that superp to the hands of consumers, what you can do with these agentic workflows, etcera So I'm more focused on making sure we are actually deploying that capability in a native way and that it's working well because for us, it's more than just making the company efficient because it's the products we provide to others Right? So I look at it with a very different lens. How we do it internally is what we are giving to users outside. We use antig gravity internally That's what we arere providing outside So the agents in antig gravity is what our developers are using And so that's what we are trying to put outside. So there's that extra dimension to it. The number one question the couter listeners want me to start asking CO is Js ask it straightforwardly. How close is Ed replacing you as the CEO U No, it is today you know, still I just think the CEO job is not that complicated, right? you know, it is it is not complicated. There's a big u There are aspects of it where I think it's going to be very, very helpful in terms of decision making. I joke around that partially joke around. which is like, ent a lot of time allocating compute. And I'm like, o, that seems like the AI is going to make more rational choices over time. becausecause I deal with a lot of appeals and emotions as part of working through a process like that So I think look, everywhere what I see and which maybe different to how I think I think done correctly, these tools are going to it. allow us to operate at the next level in everything we are doing you know It's not like you won't do what you were doing before, you will start from a higher foundation I was in there and like, I don't know, spreadsheets rolled out to companies, right? And like almost I have to go think back, how did people do all this financial analysis before Right? and I'm sure it changed over a period of three to four years fundamentally and we got used to it I think agents h aive version of it. U It's not like you're not going to plan birthday parties It is just that you know, what you let's say you're planning a trip somewhere Maybe you're actually spending your time thinking about the actual things you want to do with your time versus chasing opening times and how to get tickets and And so on. So I think it elevates everything to a different foundation, is how I think about it We have to pause here for a quick break, we'll be right back You thought this was your runclub era? Turns out, it was more of a thinking about run cllub era Good news. Someone's marathon training is about to start Sell your workout gear on Dep hop. Just snap a few photos and we'll take care of the rest. They get their race day fit and you get a payout for trying Someone on Dep hop wants what you've got. Start selling now. Depop, where taste recognizes taste Zutopia too has come home to Disney plus. Let's go! G ready for a new case. We're gonna crack this case and prove'reorious partners of the time. New friends! You are Gary Dust snake. And your last name? D snake.. Dream team The newew habitats! Zutopia has a secret reptile population. You can watch the record breaking phenomenon at home You're clearly burking it get to. Now available on Disney pllus rated PG Some follow the noise. Bloomberg follows the money, whether it's the funds fueling AI or crypto's trillion dollar swings. There's a money side to every story. Get the money side of the story. Subscribe now at blloomberg. com Wcome back. I'm talking with Google CO Cyindor Pachcii about some of the announcements that the company just made at Google IO Let me ask you about that in agents. Some of those demos are fascinating. The idea that search is going to build custom software for everybody seemes like a An idea in software engineering a first impression, right? The idea that The computer, you're going to ask it a question and the response will be for it to make you software that helps you get to answer fascinated by this idea But that is fundamentally changing search And then you kind of look at Gemini Spark, which is your agent platform in the cloud, where you will say, go book me some tickets and Spark might run around and book you some tickets or do some tasks for you. And then there's anigravity, that eentic coding platform Broadly, every year there's like a new paradigm for AI There was LMs first and then maybe we're going to change some LMs together then there's reasoning. and then now we're agents. Is this the foundation? or is there another paradigm shift to come I think it's a great question. You know we are laying most of the building blocks in place, I think, I think you know, fundamentally being able to reason used tools. code you know, or a lot of like Hving intelligence and reasoning, being able to plan, being able to look up things, use tools And if you need as part of that to build something So you are kind of laying all the primitives. and And obviously antigravity is for developers. anti gravity engine, the harness is built into a Gemini now, right? And and Spark is just a mode of Gemini. Over time it's a feature. We're positioning it, but you know it's just a tab within Gemini And so you're bringing that agentic harness Users don't need to think about deevelopers will understand it over time in Spark, they can powerful things But but as users You may be building something, creating something, planning a trip and all that is working behind the scenes So I do think we are know laying a lot of the primitives of what we need agents to work end to end or more importantly, AI to work You know this long running vision of assistant we've all had and worked through myriad forms of it and, you know and failing to fully do it well I think we are closer than ever before to deliver on that promise. We haven't delivered it yet, you know, but that's that's the that's the journey, which I think is closer than ever before I look at all the products and they do seem like they should converge R You have the new intntelligence search box, and I definitely want to talk about search in more detail. But you look at that search box and then you look at it's Canvas that makes you the apps Um, but you're planning a wedding it'll just give you nap help you plan a trip or a wedding or something. and then you have Spark where it can go off and do things And I looked at that and I was talking to people yesterday. And it just seems obvious that that should be one product. You know, it will. the agents Just like I gave the earlier notebook example of like, you you're creating notebooks What are notebooks? You're effectively putting all the context you want in one place and then working off it It's folders as they've always existed in for people. You know notebook should be a consistent primitive across theard to you use I just view agents that way. It shouldn't matter. And so I do think when you're at the earliest stage of innovation create the capability. I think teams are experimenting with it for a user over time If you fire off planning a trip, it should work across both places, is how I would think about it. You're right in that There's something very important about Google seearch. It is a source of truth for people for however many years, decades now Go Google it and you'll get answer and that answer is the same for you and me generally has been a very important idea. Like I think, a fixture in the culture Maybe Google is the last company saying it will just tell you the truth out of all the companies out there. Okay, we're going to infinitely personalize the search box. We're going to infinitely personalize the search experience And we're all going to get different answers to queries. We're all going to maybe even look at different interfaces, depending on what we're asking, what our personal context is, how much data Google has Do you think about that profoundly? like How much can you destabilize the last sort of common source of truth most people experience on the internet? I think there are is well beyond our control which is People today have a wider variety of sources than ever before. So I think people are getting content from so many different sources With in the world of Google, I still think we deeply care about this being a source of knowledge and information I think there are objective experiences and subjective experiences, right? What's the capital of of the USA You know, it's not going to be custom created for anyone, right? These are objective things. plan a nice trip to Montreal. for a weekend you know, naturally, the answers don't need to be the same for everyone, right? So there is a continuum there. I do think the more, you know, so we deeply care about Uh, you know for certain categories of information We do still anchor around authoritative information to present as much of a objective views as possible and and If it is health related queries We naturally tend to show. u more authoritative answers Damn. If you're saying You know, what sweater should I go by? Yeah right an I show you a search result? A few years ago I showed you a search result. I've been tracking this one for years. I always love amongst the ten trillion queries. Yes. Well this is this way is a favorite. We have a very scientific statistical way of doing this. I think this is important. And I want to get into how consumers might be experiencing these products. So this is a search I do all the time for best Chrome book I'll just show to you, there it is. So it starts with an AI overview, It just very confidently tells you the answer. and then there's a bunch of sponsored boxes. And then the one that gets me is right below that, I believe the result is Reddit And it has a top result in Reddit. and it's actually a different answer than the AI overview. And then there's like the Times, which has a different answer. And you kind of scroll this. you know The AI overview is telling me one thing. The first organic result is like fairly down the page And all of these are different answers. And I hear what you're saying about objective results and subject results What laptop should I buy somewhere in the middle of those things, right? And I'm just curious how you think That experience for consumers is today in AI mode and where you think it should go Look, I think to be very clear, in the world of AI always is an AI mode We are organizing, giving context, but there are sources throughout. So you're still presenting organic content in a different way, right? So I mean, there are links and sources you're giving to But there is an opinion to go with it too, which is what you're talking about Um I do think, you know, some of this will be iterative with users, right? I think One of the great things we find with searches easy to measure user satisfaction. O twenty five years, we've learned to measure Uer happiness, user satisfaction correlated way with improving the quality of the product, not for short term So that's why we do these long term studies And if we get wrong get any experience wrong, it shows in the metrics and we course correct. Yeah, right. And And we pride on the ability to track this over long longer term engagements, sessions, you know Turning to our topic, the number of bounce packs they do So very, very sophisticated way of looking at it. I think in some areas like that, I think the experience will continue to evolve You're right That experience is good today. I think it's probably more opinionated than it should be for that particular query you showed me. That's how that was my reaction as a user So I think that's a scope for improvement is how I would say in a fast evolving space And you know, but But I would expect that to happen in the product, right? Like my intuition there is, Oh that's way more opinionated. There is some chance personalized to You may be testing it in a way that you're uniquely personalizing. you are The reason that query might not be exactly representative, though I think I think because I know how you review all these things you know, so there is some chance you're on the point ero zero zero one percent. That's kind of what I'm asking about infinitely personalizable results, right? And I'm also asking if the experience is good because I would bet that mostost people experience AI in Google search, like all the time. they have that experience or they kicked to AI mode. And there's a stuff you can measure about user satisfaction And then there's how the public feels about AI And I think there's a pretty yawning gap in Hey, there's these user numbers going up and we're close to a billion users. and the free products people are experiencing, how good they might be. And then just the polling data. Young people dislike AI. is objective as that gets. You can go ask them and they will tell you in measurable ways they dislike it. Eric Schmidt, the former C of Google booed at a college graduation speech he was giving. Seven in ten Americans opposed data center construction. There's some gap between the product experiences people are having and how they feel about the technology Do you think you can close that gap? Do you think these products are good enough It is a very profound topic and I feel like you're linking to I think people's People rightfully so. Yeah, is the most profound technology humanity is going to deal with. It's happening at a very fast pace. I don't think humans are evolved processing this much change And the rate of change, particularly over the last few years is U incredibly high people rightfully so partarticularly with all the what they are hearing, I think people are People are trying to Understand the future and in their personal context of their lives. including what it means economic level and so on, right? And so really makes sense why there is anxiety around this technology. And I think we should be very attuned to that. and I think that's an important topic and I think that's much broader and bigger then the facets of what's happening, you peopleople don't directly associate these two all the time. In some cases, yes, they're linked in certain ways. Wait, can I I think people experience the free versions of these models in various products. I think they open their social media feeds and they see slop. I think they'd see headlines about all that stuff I think they have the tools just sort of presented to them. The Gemini sparkle shows up in all the Google products, whether you asked for it or not And then I do think you link it to, oh, they're asking for a lot of electricity and maybe my rates will go up. And maybe all the jobs will go away, and that's pretty scary And I I don't know if the value exchange is there. I think these are good things to study. I think you're being too specific on what's happening versus I'm just broadening it out onm saying might be part of the explanation. I do think there are other cheaper factors too. Do do think it's just a marketing problem? I've heard your peers say that AI just has a marketing problem? No, I don't think so. That's the point I'm making. arguing against it. I think it makes sense to me why people would feel concerns about it. It feels natural to me You know, you're pl standing and telling about how AI could make a lot of jobs go away, right? And like, you know, why wouldn't you feel a sense of anxiety about it, right? And like, you know, I think those are deeper deeper issues, which we have to tackle as a society That doesn't mean, yes, there's concern about AI slop at a product level. All that are true. All I'm pointing out is it's a multi layered problem. But I don't think all the source of the data center angx is directically related to one specific experience you're having in a product or something alone like that. That's all the point I'm making, right? It is It is broader and bigger than that I do think there's a lot of AI slop out there. like I feel it. And so you know, in an early phase of technology with the comparive dynamic that exists, I think a lot of things are getting rolled out But we also see empirically how people are using these products in very deep ways And and and, you know, I think not all of it is If you go in a place where VMo hasn't come and you just poll people talk about self driving cars, what you get in the polls is different from how they feel. and they use these cars. So technology also goes through these things People have pretty negative views of the internet too, by the way, if you go poll R If you ask about the internet, as a, you know, and and but it's a fabric of our lives and we have to adapt to it. So all of that is simultaneously happening, I think It's a complex topic To me, it feels like ople are worried about rising energy prices and if so, they want to make sure AI is not exacerbating the problem And that's a valid concern. and I think Uh, and It's up to us as an industry. to make sure if you're building data centers, what can we do to make sure we aren't contributing to that problem? So I think that I view as our responsibility, not just us And the government, I think, you know there's bipartisan concerns around some of this stuff So for example, there's a rate player, rate player pledge we all signed up to with a set of commitments, mayaybe there needs to be more done I think all of that is goes hand in hand I think it's important to talk about topics like skilling, workforce, you know adaptations. I think we are driving a lot of change very fast through society. I think those end up being very important topics as well. So I think I think there's concerns at all those levels. And I expect this cons to be meaningful as we go forward I think it is you know, many years ago, I said this is more profound than fire or electricity. so I've always felt that. And so u, you know, or think about deep fakes and how do you know what whether something is you know, these models are getting better at assilating reality U This is why we were working so hard. We built sy tidy, we are open sourcing it, We are pulling many, many partners together. and it's great for me to see the industry collaborate on a topic like this Cybersecurity is another good example. I think these are all real concerns, right? So I do think As an industry, we need to do more Governments will have a stronger role to play. So all of that and the public needs to be involved We cannot have the most consequential technology rolling out the world in a way in democracies without the public, citizens, rightfully having a voice around it To me it is reallyally important that we go through this phase and like, you know, that's how we we learn how to adapt I'll leave it. I think my argument is that the products do the marketing work and that That's my push. I'm still waiting to see the killer app for consumers that does it. I think we have the killer app for entnerprise. I want to talk about the web though before I burn all the point There are times have gone through a health journey in Gemini. It feels more than a killerapomy. betteret than anything I've ever done before So you know, so I think it's, you know, so people are going through those experiences too. Yeah. We have to take another short break here. We'll be back in just a minute T finally find your thing, you want the whole world to know about that thing. So you use a thing called Canva to make it an even bigger and better thing Whether you want to create flyers for that thing, make presentations for that thing, or design merch for that thing. You can do anything. so people can see your thing, feel your thing, love your thing. The next thing you know, it's a thing. Canva, the thing that makes anything a thing I get so many headaches every month? It could be chronic migraine, fifteen or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more. Botox Autobotulinum tooxin A prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. It's not for those who have fourteen or fewer headache days a month Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. 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That news follows reporting that open AI plans to go public as soon as September, and that that news follows reporting that SpaceX, which also considers itself an AI company, will be going public in maybe just a few weeks from now. Welcome to the era of the Omega IPO We are about to see millionaires, billionaires, and yes, probably even the world's first trillionaire created overnight. And yes, it's that guy. This is the chainsaw for bureaucracy. Ts off But all the tech bros who are going to make all the money, they need our money way more than we need their products. And we're gonna remind you why on todayoday Explain from Vox. Welcome back I'm talking to Google COon a T about what Google and AI search have done and might continue to do to the open web I w want to talk with the web, the health journey in Gemini that requires a rich data set of health information on the web to exist VO requires, I believe training, Geminine and like YouTube videos, right? Like BO requires the YouTube ecosystem to operate and to be fruitful to make new work in. You and I have discussed the concept I call Google Zero for many years, the idea that it will stop sending traffic to the web. You've disagreed with me that this is real. Vty much so. And this last week Thatn't happen in the last many years. Well, I'm just going to re you a quote. It's this time, it's not me. and I didn't I didn't feed this f. Roger Lynch, the C of Conde Nast. He did an interview with TBPN last week said, I'm just going read a quote Every year search traffic was down more than we had forecast. So last year I told our teams, assume there is no search you have to have your businesses plan as if search is zero is Google Zero. Condanye asked to saying We're assuming that search will go to zero. How would you respond to that? right? The idea of one of the biggest, most iconic publishers in the world is saying, I can't depend on this anymore First of all Information ecosystem is so much broader beyond Google. R we see it in the data, you see it everywhere. So any publisher over the last ten years, I would look at verge and I would say where you were when you first cover, how much it's evolved since then. types of content you make where all you put that out how well you users are coming to you I think it's exceptionally dynamic and so it makes sense to me every publisher is adapting to this new world. We are you know, adapting to the evolving world, how users are consuming technology. We had to do when the world shifted from web to mobile. We are shifting it from a world of mobile to people having ongoing conversations, chatting with these products, talking to them, consuming it in voice and many different form factors peoplee are expressing preferences for various types of content. they're looking for user generated content, they're looking for podcasts, you know, they're looking for that T it all, we are very committed to both meeting user expectations And also G them to connecting them to What's out on the web. And just even in the last year, even since we haveve launched these features We've gone back, We've added more links Another area where behavior is changing Many publishers, rightfully so are thinking what subscription models? Sure But I'm just saying Con and Nast is saying we're going to assume our search traffic is zero given the trends that we see. Should they assume that? This I always view People understand their business is better. I'm not in a position to tell you know, such iconic publisher what they should think about their business or plan Uh, you know what You dare building content which is high quality and people like it, I expect us to be reflect that in our products. That much I can comeit to them, right? So that's That's what my my, you know, so I think more than any other company, through this evolution, we are working very hard to make sure peopleople can get connected and we are planning to do research in Gemini and that's still underpins a lot of what we do But there is evolution. like teechnology improves. Low quality clicks get filtered out That's a natural evolution we see. We see it in our metrics. bounce clicks are going down And so those are all dynamics. and people are going to a wider array of information. So you know, and And there are more people producing information than ever before So that pie is growing faster thenen so all these dynamics are happening. It's a complex ecosystem But our commitment to, you know making sure we reflect the vastness and diversity of the content and we do think people want to connect ultimately. to these sources and but we are trying to meet them in those moments and people come very different intend and very different moments one of the small features we haveve done, but very important, I think is if you've subscribed to something reflect that as a preferred source for you as a user. But it's a new change which we didn't have before We are adapting to the fact that publishers are increasingly know turning to suubbscribe. offerings too publishers. YouTube creators, should they be able to opt out of training to get surfaced in search I mean this is a much broader topic. I do think, you know, I think board laws and regulations will have to evolve. The courts will have to bane. It's important to protect copyright. It's important to protect fair use and you know And so you know these are constructs which will evolve dynamically through that. But do you want to be in a bunch lawsuits with YouTube creators? You're out lawuit Publishers in the UK, the rhetoric in that lawsuit is getting increasingly heated Google has said that the proposed solution is a quote free wrider charter Every year, the News Media association sends me a quote to redo. And you they say Google calling us forree writers is obviously ridiculous and or's basic supply chain economics If the value were really all on Google side, they would simply allow publishers to opt out. Do you want to be in that same fight with a bunch of creators on YouTube about opting out Look I, u constantly, you know, as part of Gemini developing, you know, we did offer a new opt out with Google Extended. and we are in conversations with publishers. We'll take feedback and or times you know, work through what makes sense and right, you know, obviously It is a we are not the only player in a big ecosystem you know, we are also trying to put out products which are competitive to other products out there, right? And I think Hm All the publishers will also write an artic saying the product is not very you know, so this is more complicated than it looks like. I just I think you have spent more time thinking about the web and the health of the web and the necessity of the web. Paint me the picture for what a healthy web looks like. You know, I actually sentic search world. One of the arguments I've made over time and I actually see it playing around a little bit more. I've started using the web more again over the last year year and a half I think all these AI experiences brought the web back More. You know, there was a time and it felt like, you know, but I always felt that web would be vibrant. In fact I've argued the web is going to be vibrant every year. and you know, I would still argue today. Uh You know, the web is constantly evolving. I've never seen anything as dynamic as the web, which is why it's been such a privilege to be part of that evolution I look at agents. That is the next evolution of the web, which we will deal with. and you know, and I think it will evolve the web pretty profoundly Um And there will be a lot of debates about what's okay, what's not. But I think the web will continue to be People want to put out information, connect with other people. People want to be connected, you know, people aren't trying to be in a siloed world detached, that doesn't reflect the reality of the human experience I think the web is going to play as central a role on it as ever before. In fact Universal commerce Protocol, if anything, what we announced yesterday, I think people ight they are underestimating the impact of it. Can I juxtapose that? There are a lot of muscular announcements about new products, new features and aentic tools you can use and UCP and Amazon and Walmart, and we're going to use a new standard we're building for shopping And all that is very tangible And then IO ended with Demisisabis, the CEO of DeMind coming out And he said this thing that I have not been able to stop thinking about He said Google's cutting edge research and products will help unlock AGI's incredible potential for the benefit of the entire world When we look back at this time, I think we will realize that we were standing in the foothills of the singularity Can you tell me what it means to be in the foothills of the singularity? Demis and have had long deep conversations on this top topic. I think in this context, I think fororeum The advent of AGI is what thinks of as a singularity and you know, and ide Do you have a definition of AGI have you debated? Do you have an agreement? we debate it a lot. I think both Demis and I are very close to how we think about and you know think about we think about AGI in the You know, you know there is a harder definition of AGI, which is, you know, that that it has to be comprehensively do you know, the wide range of tasks, including cognitive tasks in a way that's comparable. So I think we'll at some point actually put put it out as a company, I think, and we are working on that But I think that's what he's talking about in this context. By the way, I think it's important for us to understand that this technology is progressing very rapidly. and you know later today, I'll be going and spending time with our AI researchers and not just in our company, but amongst the frontier labs. I think there's white. consensus that this technology AGI is people may quibble around Is it like three years, but the technology is sooner rather than later. And so I think it's more important to communicate that because that's what know to an earlier part of the conversation, it's important that we as a society understand it and are preparing as much as possible. I say this question that maybe the first time you ever talkouch about AI I asked if language was intelligence and, you know, the The progression here is we're layering more and more on OMs. We're doing longer chains of reasoning, we're building harnesses, We're doing all this stuff but the core technology is still, you know, transformers, it's still the thing Google invented all so on yeah Can LOMs get you to AGI? Is that path clear you know, the trajectory over the last three years has been incredible and looking ahead, you know, it looks The LLMs of today are you know have evolved in many ways too. so we are constantly evolving it and to me, it's like asking Can computers get as to like the way, you know, the W Niman architecture is still what powers most computers today You know, he won't recognize the modern one of our TPU pods, right? And like or maybe he would, you know, there's still a lot of commonality to it So saying Underlying technology keeps evolving so profoundly. I look at every year, we have had major breakthroughs I recently, I mean, you just saw his demo in antig gravity in ability to prompt and create an operating system. R? And like know it's very dangerous for Google to be able to make a new operating we'll have to make sure we don't toilken max on creating, I'll give you that Uh it's fair That is the power of what these things are doing, right? There are mathematicians in the world, top physicists in this world who are interacting with these tools and using them in important ways But we still, know, can these tools go fundamentally make novel scientific discoveries on their own And so It's both remarkable how much it's progressed I don't think it has important evolutions to happen And then there are strong opinions out there in the world about, you know, you know you know, how much of a real understanding of the world you need, you know, to take that next leap. You know, I'm pretty optimistic that we will continue to make a lot of progress