AI Threats and Platform Dynamics

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From outdoor shades to room darkening blinds, finding the perfect fit is easy. Get free samples, expert design help and professional measure and install services, or DIY with confidence and support every step of the way shhop up to fifty percent off sitewide, plus huge savings on doorbusters right now during the fourth of July mega saale at blinds d. com Hello and welcome to Dcoder. I'm I Pet Ietit andie of the Verge and Coder is my show about big ideas and other problems. We've had another special episode of Deoder recorded at the Cannne Lion addvertising Festival in the south of France I'm talking with Ali Behermman and Rayna Penschansky, who run the Creators Division at United Talent Agency. UTA is an enormous agency after the people you've ever heard, speak or perform or show up anywhere have UTA agents representing them. For full disclosure, that includes me. UTA handled the sale of the forthcoming decoder book means I paid them money making this a reverse conflict of interest Now you know. Anyhow, that has nothing to do with Ali and Ryna whose creators division represents some of the biggest creators and influencers in the world stars as diverse as Charlie DemMilio and Market Pllier Ky Snat and Emt Chamberood Alex Cooper, and Alex Harl So I really wanted to know how Rinna and Alllli identify up and coming talent, how they work with that talent to build durable businesses, and what the machinations of being a top creator actually look like After all, all of these folks are running multimillion dollar businesses with several different revenue lines. You'll hear Allie and Renna talk directly about what it takes to build those businesses, what kinds of deals they strike, and how it's all very different than the traditional Hollywood model your agent just takes a cut of your movie earnings. Here, UTA is helping creators literally launch products, and it's fascinating that the stars of today are going from making media to making products of their own Not all of them can do it. so I wanted to know how Rain and Ally help their clients make that jump and what makes them successful at it. Of course, we also talked about AI, which was all the rage it Can, and the nature of the social platforms themselves, which enable these creater businesses, but can also destabilize them at the drop of a hat. I think you'll find Alli and Ryna to be refreshingly chill about all of that, even though they represent some VTubers of their own There's a lot going on in this one. Allie and Ryna have been working with digital talent going back to the blogger days, and they have a lot to say about how it actually works. Okay, Allie Beerman and Ryna Pinchanski, hereere we go Branda Pinchansky, Ali Berman, you are the co headads of the Creators's Division at United Talent Agency. Welcome to Deoter. Thank you,an. Thanks for having us. Yeah. I am really excited to talk to both you. I need to disclose for our MIU take client. This is like a reverse conflict of interest Like I think I pay UTA money, but that's fine. it's a good conflict. I'm hoping it causes a journalism scandal and this gets shared widely. I'm very curious about how the Creators' division works. You guys have been in a game forever One of our ideas here on Decoder is that The structure of organizations tells you a lot And creators has been reorganized. You guys are the new heads. It started in twenty twenty four. We're here at Can. It's creators everywhere here. They are the future of advertising. There's so much money floating around this festival and in advertising Tell me how UTA works with creators, how this division is structured, your backgrounds, how we got here I'm going to let Ally start Um, Well just me personally, I've been at UTA. I'm going into my sixteenth year. Yeah. And I've only ever worked at a talent agency for better or for worse. I started my career at another agency a few years into that, moved over to UTA in a very Jerry Mcuire meets entourage esque moment. and worked on the more traditional literary side of the business. but was in love with the internet and what the internet was at the time U, which was very blog centric, self discovery was really up to you You didn't have algorithms, you know, feeding to you. It was, you know, obviously a very different area Eera Then at the time, UTA had a versioning what was called digital department. that was really a catch all for anything that was non traditional Film or TV. And I went into that division as an entrepreneur and ultimately really gravitated towards artists who were forming their own communities U and, you know, going direct to consumer and really believed that There was going to be a day where you could monetize those communities And so helped shape what at the time was the digital talent division U And right around that time, our third cohead who's not here today. Oarren Rosenbaum, he's at c, but not physically in this room. He's doing another interview downstairs He was doing the same thing, but on the audio side of the business. U And so we were and even, you know, beyond that, beyond my story, UTA was the first agency in Hollywood to think about artists in a way other than what you traditionally thought of the mess. Yeah And so you know, we're actually celebrating our twentieth year as a what we now refer to as a creators's division. And so, you know, Orin was building, you know, similar to what I was building, but on the audio focus side We acquired two companies, you know, one on the game G Eesports side and then I'll kick it over to Rinna and then we'll pick it back up to where we are today. So I was one of the co founders of digital brand architects and this is sixteen years ago, actually before Instagram had even launched. And I came from a traditional marketing background. And so what I was drawn to in terms of like seeing the bloggers that Allie referenced, the bloggers, the bloggers at the time, were these people who were building these communities directly with their audience. And I'd come from fashion and marketing. and I was used to this sort of top down relationship with the consumer. And it was so exciting to see at the time, all these women, these sort of street style women who were building this relationship with their audience and who were Like essentially the next generation of editors and the next generation of media properties and they just didn't sort of know it yet And so in my time at the brand that I had been with, I was working with a lot of these, you know women in fashion, and they would sort of come to me organically and say like, oh, you know, such and such brand wants me to post, likeike what should I charge? or so and so wants me to be in a look book or a fashion show? And it became like sort of I became sort of like a very godmother of sort you know to just like, you know, answering questions in the vein of like, how do you build And it was totally organic at the time. And it was just like I was inspired by these women and thought like, oh, there's something here. I didn't know it was, you know, I think like most sort of entrepreneur stories wasn't necessarily, I wasn't connecting the dots. It's like what the business was. I was like inspired by the storytelling component of it And sort of what they represented in terms of where there was like, oh, wait, there's something there's something here Iew and That so sixteen years ago and then UTA acquired DBA in twenty nineteen And now it sits within the realm of UTA creators. So I have the role of CEO of DBA and then cohead with Ally and Oin and we've sort of we've built this, you know, theirre church and state in terms of management and agency. but we have a back of house that services both. So we have a brand partnerships team and a products development team and this like massive data and analytics and sit at the epicenter really of like everything that's sort of taking place in the the overus word of creator economy, but and really and building and thinking about, you know, what this next chapter to your point, know every single conversation is around trade or. That's fine, but then what does the next chapter of it look like? And I think what we Ali and Norn and I come to the table with is this idea of like We've been in this long enough to be you know to know it so well, but to also be able to anticipate and be excited about the sort of next chapter of it. and that's like our love language for the Forgive us. Yeah, no, completely. I think you know what's inspiring us what continues to inspire us is, you setting the bar, which is what we did twenty years ago, and we've been building this for twenty years You know, where are we going to place the next bar Yeah and that's what we're constantly talking about and thinking about and I mean you look around at this festival and it's I mean The opportunities are abbsolutely limitless. You know, for the first time I think in the history of this ecosystem Um, If there's like a tagline for twenty twenty six, especially I say it often, but it's we've arrived, you know, this direct to consumer you know, creator, storyteller U artist world is everywhere and it's inescapable. It's inescapable for brands. it's inescapable as an artist So it's really exciting I keep looking around and I keep thinking of like the version of Can Lion from you know, ten, fifteen, maybe even five years ago. And then I'm looking at it today. and it's like all these people are capturing content. and's like it's like it it just must feel so different for the people who have been sort of doing this for a long time to sort of see. but it also has a different vibrancy to it. It feels really energized you know you can tell that there's just like a little bit of a shift. Yeah. I think it's really interesting. I'm struck very much by how much everyone seems to have only just discovered the creator economy. We're just pretending. Tell us about that it's brand new. I can sense that from both of you Hel me just unpack a little bit of aggency world for one second. You described a split church and state split between agency and management I think most of the audience thinks agency and they still think of Ai Gold from entourage. That's obviously not the kind of business you're running And I want to talk about that because it seems like you're building businesses for folks in a way that isn't just signing deals with Hollywood studios Explain the difference between management and agents I mean, I think that it It's and I can speak to it from the creater space Yeah, which is different, I think than the traditional space. but It's very much Creators have so many hats and they're doing so many things And there's a nuance to whether it's capturing content, whether it's content strategy, whether it's, you know, not being PR, but certainly talking about perception and talking about, you know, sort of like overarching things around your brand, thinking, you know, roadmaps to all the various sort of things that exist. A lot of these creators are doing things that live offline of their of their content that's on platforms and they're building experiences and they're building events. And so you know, the relationship between manager and agent in the creator space is incredibly nuanced because the agents are also nuanced and multifaceted. But I think that you know, creators have, it's not like you're walking on set and you have a thing and you do a thing and you book this. It's like there's so much that goes into it as well. and so much of that is very intangible and organic And so I think that the manager sort of has a lot to do with that in the sort of day to day of managing you know, the nuance of what it takes to capture content, build the thing You know build whatever offline, the book, you know, all the sort of things that are going along with that. And then the agent is obviously involved in the more business side of it But it's it' a delicate balance. And I think obviously, Alie, you can speak more to the agent side. Yeah. I mean, the other thing that I've been reflecting on a lot is, you know, obviously and I keep saying it in this interview, but you know, we built this division twenty years ago, but I think there's no better time T be a creator, influencer, whatever you want to call it and be represented at a agency because of how multifaceted careers have become and that it's not You know, at a time in the creator economy, it was really just driven by brand deals, you know? And we were working with clients who we'd say,, their business is that I don't mean to use the word just because I don't mean to minimize it. thoseose businesses are incredibly healthy and vibrant and important U But this business, you know, their business is, it's just going to be brand deals, endorsement deals Now I would argue that if we go and we look at our roster, the majority of our clients are doing way more than just brand deals. And so when, you know, you're being represented in agency and especially you've got a creator division inside an agency, they're really quarterbacking their careers. inside all of the different dimensions and facets that you know, there are to entertainment and we're so ortunately fortunate, you know, to be, you know, seated at a place like UTA where we' got experts in and market leaders in literally every area Kank I'm just going to put it forth an idea of structure here and you guys can react to it. It just sounds as you're describing it, a traditional media company from ten years ago would have a bunch of infrastructure Right? They would have accountants and finance people in a licensing division and they would have talent and they would pay the talent, whatever number. Maybe UTA would like negotiate that talent rate But that would be the end of UTA and the business, whatever big old Hollywood studio, would have like rooms full of accountants, like making the business go. This is my imagination of what Old Hollywood was like. But that was like basically Sonny's. We're going to make a show. we're going to pay everybody, and then we're going license that show to whatever networks around the world It sounds like UTA and what you guys are doing is we've decentralized the talent. Right? They don't all work for studios in the same way. and you're providing that infrastructure layer creators don't have to think about. Okay, like how does my business actually work? You have a playbook or you have an approach for each of those creators Is that a good way to think about it? becausecause I'm constantly thinking about where the centralization and decentralization comes. And the big media businesses in my opinion, don't seem like they have a future likeike they can't all that overhead Well, I think That's a tricky one because our clients are the modern day media businesses And so You don't have roomsu of accounts. hopes You're noting them to hire roomsu of accounts, right? No, no. But they've got extensions of their teams that are, you helping them think through what is their PNL? And we do have some clients who have in house you know accounting because It's necessitated. but I mean, we're certainly decentralizing it, but I think the centralization happens within their own orbit and within their own organization. Itays, I'm just really curious about, you know, Big media companies are struggling in a lot ways, and of the reason they're struggling is their distribution has gotten way away from them. Right. So if you own a broadcast network That is very lucrative, but there is a time limit on how much money that thing is going to make and How many people are going to watch it I don' think a lot of people are turning on their TVs to watch over their broadcast anymore. That number is going down. They are all opening Instagram. every single day. probably while they're watching TV And the cost structures of making that content are changing And so I think that means the structures of the companies that your content have to change with them.. And it just seems like you two are figuring out a role to play inside of those structures. Yes. And we're figuring out how to optimize for the new version of what those media companies are, which is They they are, to All's point, they're their own media companany. So what does that entail? right? Iss there going to be physical product? Are we going to do events? What is the TV component of it? Like we have we have we are working within the world of How are we taking all of this and turning you into the next media company? But yes, to your point, it's completely become decentraliz And But we saidit that this sort epicenter connecting those new dots in the decentralized world. Yeah, this is why I'm asking the structure question. Like so many times in the coder, my joke is if you tell me your structure, tell me your org chart into like eighty percent of your problems. Yeah. and it's like the twenty percent where the magic is. And here it just seems like this isn't an organ chart. You're a bunch of clients are building businesses You two are playing some huge role in structuring those businesses So they're predictable, so they're monetizable So they operate this difference between management and agent, right?. I mean, I think that's why there's such nuance in talking about it because there's the pie is so big. And so and there are so many things that creators have the ability to do because again, of the sort of community and the relationship to audience. Because of that seismic shift, the opportunities are endless. So our job is to sit at that intersection of like how are we connecting the dots between this person's content and then all of the sort of plethora of opportunities We have to take a quick break. when we right back Heat up your fourourth of July at the Home Depot with our wide variety of grills under three hundred dollars and make every gathering one to remember. Give your outdoor space a glow up. Whatever your budget is, with savings on seasonal plants starting at five dollars. With the grill fired up and your backyard set to perfection, you'll be able to invite friends and family over to kick off the party. Start celebrating with low prices guaranteed at the Home Depot. 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I'm talking with UTA's Randa Panssk and Aly Bermman about how distribution shapes media and how influencers are shaped by platforms One of the things I'm really curious about, Alie, I read a story. you were quoted saying platforms come and go Other people perse that as a threat, That's the opportunity You know, just to be like all Marshall McCloan about it. I believe that the medium is the message that your distribution shapes what you make pretty directly. A TikToker is different than YouTuber. I think we all understand this intuitively now Those distribution platforms They have an infinite array of content, the algorithms come and go. How do you mostost media businesses are shaped by their distribution? in real ways print newspaper company understands like ur whole flow has to generate the stories by the end of the day so that the print newspaper can go out The broadcast television company understands its distribution and they make something for that distribution Content creators have to understand every distribution and it's ever changing. How do you build a business around distribution that is not really in your control or is not really predictable that way Go back to the first part of your comment slash question, which is, you know the distribution determines what the content is or what the product is What we believe in is at the end of the day, a star is a stock So it doesn't matter what platform is or what the distribution is If you're a star, you're a star You know, it doesn't, you know, whether you're a YouTuber or a TikToker or a podcaster. I mean, that's why we formed this creator's division because we believe that Anyone who's going direct. to their audience and building these communities and Our stars, like it's irrespective of where they fall, right Well, just I think a lot of corporate structures tend to mirror their distribution, at least in media. And here the distribution is like the wild West. It's just constantly changing. So how do you, know, if the goal here is to help people build media businesses, And distribution is just sort of a constant wild card How do you think about building those businesses that's sustainable Instagram changes or TikTok changes or everyone quits vine or whatever it is To be clear, the goal the universal goal for everyone isn't to you know, build a media business for everyone, you know. Every goal for each one of our clients is very bespoke. You know, as the algorithms change And as platforms continue to change, what we've always said is you have to be platform agnostic and you have to be multi platform. You cannot put all of your eggs in one basket. And so you know, that's been an increased we've seen an increased opportunity with that philosophy because of how now how many platforms are out there. Um And, you know, that's what's widening the talent funnel, right? Like, you know I think a lot about how if you were to draw what the celebrity creator celebrity ecosystem looks like today the funnel has never been wider. It's the widest funnel we've ever seen because you've got you know, everything from long form to short form to editorial to Like you name it, right Um But the spout has never been more narrow U and in order to What we're trying to do is you fure not future proof, but help our clients get through that spout. Yeah. And in order to do that, you have to be across everything because if one thing changes, like you're still carrying the weight of the direct connectivity to who you're speaking to. And I think you rely on the platform, but you also build your own you know, you build your own direct to your audience relationship. You know, however that that's substack newewsletters, like I think you want to, you know, it's a it's diversification. I don't wantanna always beholden to the algorithm, but we love these platforms and they're, you know, incredible partners. And then there's also how my building separate from that as well. Yeah. think A really big component of that and an increasingly big increasingly bigger component of that is the, you know, in real life experiences that a lot of our clients are building. whether it's something that directly involves them or it's something that they're powering, you know, whether it's something that they're on stage and people are buying tickets and coming to see them or if it's a store You know, that it's their brand. that's a physical brick and mortar Um, and, you know, people who subscribe to their content are coming to experience that in real life And I'm really excited to see how that continues to evolve and take different shape with All that's available. Yeah You've mentioned clients severales I want to talk about our clients and some of the things you build for them. To get there, I want to ask you the other question I always ask everybody on Decoder, which is about decisions How do you guys make decisions? This seems like an ever evolving space. You can't obviously have a predictable framework, but What's your process for making all the decisions you have to make? Well I'll quote Rainna from a meeting earlier where you're good. We love to say no. Yeah. And you know like the staff that you stated earlier, we're saying no to ninety percent of things It makes it that much easier to really focus in on the ten and you know figure out what makes the most sense I mean, the truth is that, you know, representing A client is it's a human to human relationship You have to really understand The artist as a human being to be able to understand what makes sense and what doesn't make sense on a personal level, that's what I love so much about the job is being able to connect with you know, individuals on such a deep human level and say, like this is what you want to do and this is how we're going to get there If you're just listening to this in a car or on audio, you that lit up when I asked the decisionions question. Why did that make you so excited I've asked that question to hundreds of people. You like list It's funny I've had the same I saw that and I had the same reaction, really? Yeah ye. It cameame alive. It's like the Ludoter Chris concert last night wore off and you were right alive. The thing I think it's decision making is for both of us. It's like It's magic and logic, right? And I think that that's what's really great, I think about our space. And I'm assuming, I mean, that's what words are not, but the lighting up, because I started the same thing. I was like, oh, that's a fun question. It's like there's logic in what we all do, right? There's analytics, there's data, there's followower accounts, all the things. But the magic is the most fun part of it. When you see a creator and you see a piece of content and you see something We're inspired by it.s we love it. Like that's what's motivating. And I think the decision making in our world comes down to content and what you're sort of when you see someone and like Allie reference like stars, like there's just something, whether it's like they're endearing and like there's a thing and that's the magic and there's a spark in our in our sort of day to day lives as it relates to clients. And I think that's what knowning how to sort of toe the line between the magic and the logic, I think' the best part. Yeah. You know, whether it's magic and logic and oftentimes what I say is when I'm asked the question of I'm not trying to Ver us down this path. so I'll see this next thing with the disclaimer. but you know, I often get asked Do you feel threatened by AI in terms of replacing your jobs and helping artists navigate their careers. And it's like absolutely well, first and foremost, no, we're not pressed by. We think it's, you know, T Rinna's point, our clients wear so many hats And so we think it's just, you know, created incredible an incredible opportunity to, you know, help outsource a lot of in of resourcing. but no, because it's where Art meeet science, you know? And it again, it's that human to human connection that really helps you figure out, you know, you can help somebody accomplish their goals in life, which is such an incredible opportunity we have. Don't worry. we're gonna to come back to AI and what kind of threat it is. R I wanted to ask you, you were also in this Wall Street Journal piece There's a quote that says you have an almost psychic ability to discern when brand deals are good or bad. I didn't say that. And someone else said that about you. I don't think you disagreed with that, to be perfectly clear That's a decision making process. Do you just stare at the ocean and decide if a brand de is good How does it just come to you? What What's your I mean, I think this is it for many of our listeners who want to go into this career, knowing brand deals to take and which one's not is like The first hardest question So it How does your almost psychic ability work? How do you make these calls Listen, there are a lot I could give you the list of things I'm not good at, but I have high EQ. So I think that's the piece of the psychic ability. I think when listen, we all have a gut sense of things And your first instinct is normally the sort of right instinct And I think people have a tendency to sort of second guess and This just might be the sort of entrepreneur in me, but I tend to sort of make I sort of do things quickly. Like I'm thoughtful about it, but it's also a matter of like that doesn't feel right or something like you know when something is a good idea and then you know when you're taking a beat. that you know, if you're sort of taking a beat because you're hesitant that that's normally not the right. you know, sort of place, but Brant, you know, Creators are they are in tune to their audiences and they're creators by their nature because they're meant to be doing this. And I think if you're meant to be in front of the camera, also have you are going to have the best sense of what you're supposed to be doing and like what is the right sort of, you know, and you build these teams and you all have these conversations and you sort of talk about these long term strategies and plans, but ultimately You know, the creators putting themselves in front of the camera and putting them at the forefront of this content. And I think if you're having if you're trying to figure out what the right brand deal is, you got to sort of go with your gut. Yeah. And I think it's so easy to default to just being so highly transactional in this space and just saying yes to everything that comes your way. you know, what shapes you is the discernment, you know, and the point of view that, you know, you as an artist and your team around you. have around what you should and shouldn't be doing. And you know, our goal is always for our clients to do. what's obvious in terms of what their audiences you want to see from them but to continue to position them to do what's not obvious. Um so we can, you know, help them innovate and help them create you know, contin you know different edges to who they are The most fun is when it's an outside the box idea. and then it's like, oh, is just totally left a center and this is gonna to feel like a little strange? Like we should do this. Yeah. Is that all incoming? Do you go out, do you come up with crazy ideas and go out to clients? Oh yeah.? Oh, absolutely. What's that process like Everybody in a room brainstorming, talking about, you know, we used to say like, what do you want to do in five years? but five years feel so far far off? That's like what we what do we want to do the nextall? Yeah in the next eight what do we want to do in the next eighteen? What are we trying to accomplish in the next eighteen, twenty four months? We break it down to a lot different things. like what are the huge What are the IP ideas? What are the huge sort of offline things we want to do? And then what are the steps that sort of lead us to that And what are the things that we do along the way? What's amazing in terms of like what's a dream thing that you've always wanted to do, But then what's like a really practical thing that we need to do to build to get there? Absolutely, I was just gonna say that, which is it's like, you ask the question of What are your goals? Let's build the strategy And then let's start down the path And me put a cadence this. I think most people see creators, like they just open the apps and they see the videos and they're excited and they're entertained. You're describing it like a business process, a series of meetings and goals charts and the KPIs, what's the process? Do you meet with creators on a cadence? Oh, absolutely. I mean, the majority of of our clients were in weekly or bi weeekly or you know monthly touch bases Because what we've done is the second that we start working together, we built what that overall strategy is And then, you know, just like, you work at a company of a normal nine to five, but you're you know meeting as a team to update everybody on you know where this project is or you know, where these numbers are, if you're in a sales position and we're doing the same. I'm really curious about it because I think People who want to go into this career don't understand that they might be running re prettyty complicated business on the backe end. Yes, Yes. And I'm curious, you know, you were early to some big names talk about we've been talking about creators as a monolith, I think for this conversation. These are all different creators. I think Charlie D'Milio who has a very different business than Alex Earl and Jake Shane and Emma Chamberlain. Like Th these all seem like People are situated differently One, how do you decide, okay, these are the people we should go after and try to sign? Beuse you're pretty early. Like historically, I think you in particular have seen the talent early Aly and made sure to go get them. And then you've got to convince them Okay, like now you have to bunch have a bunch of business meetings with me because that's the thing that's going to help you grow. And that's not the time you're spending making the content for the audience So how do you identify the people early? and then how do you get them on the path to building the business? I think collectively, you know, on the, you know, management side of the creators' business and, you know, the agency side We believe that the earlier we partner with the talent, the better it is for them so that they can continue doing what they're doing, which is creating content and building community Lave the rest to us to be, you know, your trust us, you know, as part of what's left what's left in the process and fail fast at things, you know, like try things fail fast. but Like I said earlier, continue working to what is that overall goal I feel like vanishingly few people are ever going experience the full force of an alley Bearermman pitch I mean, like most people want to get it, Mbe that's a goal, but you're only going to selectively pick a few people. So What's it like? What do you actually say? Just trust me? Dcribe the pitch when you reach out to a creator that you've seen that has the star quality. What's the story of you toing? With all due respect, I cannot give out that recipe you can describe them can describe the outcomes. What does this like? I mean, ultimately, you know, I personally, like I was describing earlier, I want to be in business with people who I personally connect with. Yeah. that's the joy and the reward that of this job and this career for me. And I want to be in business with people who want to work really hard, who want to work U harder than I want to work, but ultimately I'm going to work just as hard and harder. And you know, people who have a real singular voice, that's really, really important to me because I believe it's that singular voice that's going to help you outstand a platform, outstand an algorithm change, outstand you, whatever it is And quite frankly, like that's always been the ethos of UTA, which is let's go identify and represent the most unique artists in the world That was an all time decline to answer and then a seamless pivot into pitching ETA. So I I can tell that it's good. I'm going to figure out one to do. Rayna, will you tell me what is your outreach look like to new creators You know, it's it's Why don't I have to share m? You don't want to another I can't possibly All the things I asked about, I did not expect to hit the brick wall here. because I'm very curious, right? Like UTA is a big company. You guys have big clients, young creators that I know. are very skeptical that someone is going to come in and run them over Right? There's just some part of that first step of you're going to take how much? you're going to do what? Like how do I hold you accountable And I'm really curious how you get over that wall Listen, Well, what I will say is for you know, for both UT and DBA, some there are Our work speaks for ourselves. We have a lot of clients who are also just talking about, you know, this is my experience and it's been amazing. And so you knows we're very fortunate for that I don't know, again, for me, it's like I love content. and it's funny. there's something that you sort of asked earlier and you were talking about you know, the the how often do you meet with clients? I am in my clients' DMs when they have post content that I love. am This is amazing.. I love this. This should be a series. We should do something like this. Let's do this. That's the other sort of nuance of what you were talking about in terms of the business and the like That's the difference. L we an idea can come from something that someone posts and then we're off to the races And I think that you know it moves, the space is moving quickly, but also we're moving at the speed of content and making decisions and building off of a piece of content And so like something that didn't exist yesterday that just happened today again can could be the next IP in the show, you know So I think that's the other sort of really fun thing about our space. is I love that. We're moving at the speed of content. I know I just said I justump so I can't participate in this, you guys. can't I can't be here you guys workshopping at tagl. It's so good. It to where I've never said that before. So good. But that I was thinking when you're talking about cadence and frequency and you know, sort of I was laughing at myself thinking like, oh my god, my cli, I'm literally like in clientss DMs being like, I don't about that So the pitch is just like, I'm a real like straight shooter when I sit with clients. and I will say like, that thing you did, like that didn't land. And here's why. And like what I think would land is X, Y and Z. But I think it's because what they sense from us and Oin, when they're in the room with us is like we are consumers of content and their content and we're not sort of like Hey, like, here are the boxes you check and here's the things you should do. We're coming at it from the point of view of like This is how we build together because I genuinely believe in what you're doing and this is how I see it. Yeah. You know. I mean, the table steaks are you know, whatever, you know percentage it is, like just that. That's the bare minimum. Like we just want to add value And if we're adding, you know, ten percent of value, we're not doing our jobs. Yeah. We need to be adding ten plus, you know. The reason I'm saying ten percent is I'm pretty sure that's the right, right? That's the commission and deals like the standard agencies. agencies. Yeah. I'm curious how that works in creator world. I understood how worked in O old Hollywood world, Right? Tom Piers gets a big check agent takes ten percent of it. everyone's rich and happy world my votes. In Creator worldorld is a bunch of brand deals. negotiated, I think, equity deals, Rlex, Earl and Poppy. How does the rate work when the The shape of the deals is so varied and a lot of these things turn into businesses over time. Which city Listen, it's really deal dependent, obviously, especially as you're talking about these sort of larger things that we're building. They're fluid conversations with clients, right? So it's like We don't we're not in the room unless we add value, and we add a tremendous amount of value And so that value conversation comes, you know with a number and we just sort of talk through like what makes the most sense. The standard in terms of like the brand deals and like, you know, it's a ten percent agency commission. and then there's, you know always sort of conversations. Sometimes honestly, sometimes it's more. sometometimes it's less. It just sort of depends on what the structure of the deal looks like and you know, what our role is in't it Yeah, I'm curious about those deal structures, because that seems like it's also the wild West. So many of your creators, creators across the ecosystem are now just starting their own businesses to sell their own products. And I for as much as we might not be threatened by AI or as much as we don't think the algorithms change. I'm often struck by how lucrative it is for creators to go from digital businesses to physical businesses Yeah, which Basically is not how things should work, right? You should go to a way higher margin digital products. R. All the creators have to leave digital world and they have to market Like I think it's crazy that the Pa brothersll bottled water. which is historically not a great thing to be wanting to ship around the world But that is a vastly more lucrative business than their digital business So there's a park here where we're going to stand up a white label makeup liner, whatever the thing is that we're going to do How do you play in that? Because it feels like those deal structures and those commission rates would be very different than the standard brand deal commission. Yeah. And and listen, I mean, we've done we've been doing those deals for quite some time and have put together some of the some if not all of the most sort successful examples of those Those are really complicated deal structures and they take a tremendous amount of time and energy and and and detail And we participate on them. We sit on the cap table along with clients because again, we're in the room putting it all together and then staying and being a part of it. I think the difference with those kinds of deals is that It's not, you know It's not just it's not just an introduction. just introuction. It's not just a licensing deal. You are, you know, we are involved in packaging, distribution, marketing, you, all of the things that really are fundamental to launching these brands, and we're sitting at the table right alongside these teams and helping and facilitating. T to be honest with you, it's not a straightforward answer Yeah because There are infinite ways that these deals come together. Whereas, you know, on the more traditional , you know, just highly transactional side of business. It's you know, a fee for a service, right? And These are incredibly, you know, as Rinna said complicated. but can come together in so many different ways in terms of you know, capital coming from here or capital coming from there or, you know, from the talent directly and it just it really depends on how the deal shapes and how it all comes together. And then we you know, like Rena said, we get in a room and we have a conversation we figure it out. But It is not just an introduction and it's really about staying in there because Every day, we're sitting across the four corners that is our client's business. And so we're constantly trying to figure out how do we maximize, you know to speak in metaphorical terms, how do we build the biggest book? How do we add as many pages to this book as possible U And we're not just trying to, you know hand it in with a one page document I think the reason I'm pushing on this is This is new. It feels new for talent to be needing to launch physical products businesses. to have something that will create enterprise value that they can maybe sell at the end of the road in a way that selling a TikTok channel might not be as easy to transact on.. And I see the push from all of the biggest creators to launch that next business I dont think UTA has historically been in the business of we're going to help you launch products. We're going to sit in your design meetings or your packaging meetings. I don't think the other agencies have either Y' I think it's CA's or your competitor. they just launched a fund to buy creator businesses in this way. It seems like that's one of their opportunities. You seem less interested in actually transacting and owning the things R? You're trying to help the creators build their own businesses. There's something shifting, right, where we understand that the businesses should have long term value and maybe exit in some way. Yeah. So I think One thing I think is important to know if you're sort of a creator or someone who wants to you know be in the space of going through digital to sort of physical product. The money is not the issue. money is candidly is easy to come by. So that's not really it's about Being in business with people who understand how to launch successful businesses. And for all of the incredible examples of the successes in sort of trad in any sort of launching of products, we can all think of thousands that weren't successful. So it's like the devil's in the details in terms of like Who are your partners? Who are you building with? Wh has the infrastructure? Who understands these spaces, Who's been in them for a long time, who's done these sort sorts of deals? like who knows the entire sort of landscape? The capital isn't the issue. It's the infrastructure, it's the knowledge, it's the institutional knowledge. it's the rest of it that's really I think what's important, that's what we are, you know, veryy happily bringing to the table. It is true that sitting here in the south of France at one of the most moneyed events I've ever been at. The capitol does not feel like It's not It's really not. the capitol is not the challenge. There's just a lot of money floating around here that has no idea what to do. Yes. But you got to really understand and know how to bring a product to market and how to connect those dots to have this be successful Yeah. And again, and it goes back to you, you have to really understand your clients And you have to speak that language. We have to pause here for another short break. We'll be back in just a minute Hey, it's Ry Renold from MitMobile. Now. I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited preremium wireless for fifteen dollars a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made fifteen dollars bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a try at mintmobile dot com slash switch Upront payment forty five dollars for three months ninety dollars for six mons one hundredy dollars forelveths, reired fifteen doll for month equival to taxess extra. initial term only greater than fifty gigabytes slow netork busy terms Hear that That's the sound of busy. To a restaurant, all that shouting and banging might as well be a symphony. It means the long days and longer nights are paying off. Sure, it's noisy, but there's a worse sound. This Not busy Busy means business, which is why toast gives restaurants the tools and tech they need to help them perform under pressure. 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They accept the sponsorship deals or the brand integrations because that supports what they're there for. And when you flip the switch to being more directly commercial that misaligns you with the audience, and then we all end up issuing apologies And she says most people like A lot of people fall off the cliff and some people get to exit. You have a lot of clients who' managed to pull it off. What do you think the difference is? Why do you think you're nodding your head? I think you generally agree with this concept It's really hard. Why do you think some creaters fall off the cliff? and they can't sell directly to their audience and some people are able to achieve escape philosophy There's There's a fundamental like philosophical relationship between this talent and their audience because the reason why they have this relationship in the first place is because the content has and free And so the first time that they're asking their audience to transact, that's going to go one way or the other. has to be a content market fit, right? It has to be something that is only going to continue to add to this free content The audience has been getting and it's going to continue to get There's a technical shift in what that relationship is between the artist and their audience U and it's not going to work for everyone what are the signs that it'll work and what are the signs won't Again, it's got that content If you can fit it into your content and not have to make a big effort to do so. That checks the biggest box. By far. I'll give an example. We have a client, Patrick Starr. He has a beauty line that he came out with five years ago, onene size beauty. one of the biggestauty brands at Zepha, A product of his setting sprreay, which one of the products he's known for, sells every eight seconds at Zephora. He came and said we had a conversation. It was sort of like, of course, Patrick Starr was like, insane YouTuber, Beauty space is going to have makeup line And everybody we found them this amazing partner and we had all these conversations. And it was like, okay, where should we start? What product are we going to start with? And he said, When I was younger, I worked at a Max store And I was a boy who wore makeup, and I walked in and I had all this makeup on and this and I walked into into Mac to work And they said, you're wearing too much makeup, you need to take it off And he said, my first product is going to be makeakeup remover, wipes. That's what I'm launching with. That's my story. That's who I am. It fundamentally represents who I am. I'm not launching with foundation, I'm not launching with I. this is what I'm launching with. whichich was a starkly different thing than how you would normally launch beauty. You're launching a beauty brand with makeup remover. likeike that sort of feels counterintuitive That was one hundred percent the right decision and it was his decision the partner supported it. And but it was a counterintuitive thing, but his audience knows him, and that is exactly what he should have done. When you come at it from the point of view, when you're launching something and you are so profoundly passionate about that thing and you know exactly what that point of view is and how it intersects with your audience and with selling to the audience Th it then you're going to find success. When it's like, oh, I want to do a brand. then it's a little more challenging. And that's when I sort of the sort of the cliff happens. What do you say no to? rightight? I mean, it sounds like you're hearing a lot of ideas. ninety percent knows What are the things you've said no to We say no, I mean again ninety percent of it. People show up and they're like, I want to do a a line of car fresheners and you just say no ers actually sounds. I mean, Im just say anyone out there want to do. Its what a crowded market I every gas station. actually. ye. What I find that we say a lot when ideas come in is sort of like Okay, let's break that down. market o supplements are challenging for X, and Z reasons. How our is going to be different, How, you know, where are we going to sit Alcohol is challenging for X Y andZ reason. L listen, everything's hard. I think we all sort of know that, right? It's not we make things we certainly make things a lot easier, but it is these are challenging rooms and challenging spaces and the market is crowded and you have to really come at it from the right place So I think it's less about like, we definitely say no a lot, but it's also a matter of like partnering and just sort of like laying out things and talking about them from the really organic sense of like What's going to be the challenges here? What could be the potential pitfalls and like are we going to do it differently I think it's more about like how is how are we going to come at this differently? One of things that really strikes me, this conversation and every creator conversation I've had recently how much the role of being a creator is also the role of being a marketer And I've heard a lot of the bigger creators now just openly describe themselves as marketers. Their money comes from working with brands or they're building businesses and marketing their own businesses. and they understand that some part of what they're doing is selling I think this is different from traditional entertainers certainly different than traditional journalists It just feels like a big shift. Like everything is advertising or everything is driven by marketing in some way My colleagues at New York Magazine just ran a story called Theetus Fac and's like everything is bought and paid for And there's some response from the audience It's like, I don't like this. I don't like living in a world that' this commercial all the time I feel like all the creators are trying to balance this as much as they can. You have a much wider view. You're building big businesses with these folks. How do you feel about this notion that everyone is becoming a marketer in the end? Think This is a moment in time where there's a little bit of pushback, but I would say that you know, our prediction is that Yes, everybody is a marketer. But we're moving towards a world where everybody's a consumer And those two things match up perfectly And so you look at Gen Alpha and it's all they know. All they know is to, you know, consume purchase consume, you know, consume content, you know, purchase products, you know, whatever is being fed at them U Is that good? I mean, I'm not here to be that from podcast. Yeah,'s just you know, that's this podcast.it I'm going gonna drag you into your feelings when you w through it all family. Yeah. I'm not here to be the arbiter of you know. Well can political in our I'll just give you a counter example to that. where I insistently make journalism, which means I don't make as much money as I should And what we are joke about like the Virges subscription product Stopping a joke and actually became the thing we started marketing is what you're buying from others is our ethics policy You can't buy me. I won't do a brand deal. I w't even read the ads on a podcast, which drives everybody crazy. We are just leaving money on the table every single day. And our youngest consumers had no idea that was a thing. Right? They't They didn't grow up in that world. There was no Jen Alpha was like, whereere are the ads? Yeah. They're like whereere are the ads?ike And we're like, we don't do it. Like I literally have to say out loud. These are the things. It's like And now a message from our sponsor' like we just don't do it. We don't integrate the content and we say this is what differentiates our information from everything else. And that's fine. L we just it's just market and maybe we'll die. Maybe I should have been reading the ads every single day. But you just mentioned Jen Alphon in that way and it's like I don't No if anyone is telling them that there are other ways to be And so like the notion that it's all consume and market and purchase att some point People just like grow up and their habits change and their tastes changeed. Maybe we'll sign the next anti marketer. That's the move it just feels like maybe in the deepest way, There will be a rebellion to that, right? There In every counterculture, there's some rebellion against that kind of commercialization. Well, I think that listen, the pendulum always swings, right But I think that you're sort of Like we're see it now in terms of nostalgia having this big moment and everyone being sort of nostalgic and And everyone loved, you know, everyone was obsessed with the love story and this the sort of nostalgic content and the throwbacks to the ninetyies or wherever You know, I have an eleven year old daughter, She's Jen Alpha. She has only grown up knowing that this is what it is. She doesn't have the point of reference that I have where I'm remembering like looking through the pages of vogue and you know and having that sort of emotional relationship with like the ads or the content. you know these generations aren't comparing it to anything. They're not necessarily thinking that there's a bad or a good version of this. This is just sort of what they know that, you know, obviously pros and cons to everything. And I think but at the end of the day, if you think of it, we're all sort of our own marketers, right? Whether that's in our day to day job in our role, whether you're advocating for yourself and as know for your salary raise or whatever that is, we are all sort of marketers. Some of us are marketers with for Yeah. And some of us are marketers are everyday. Yeah. That's the thing. I mean, I think I mentioned it earlier You know, when I first got into the digital ecosystem, it was at a time where you were driving your own algorithm. So like T Rinna's point, it's like, I can remember growing up and I was driving the algorithm in terms of, you going through this big vogue magazine or in style magazine and figuring out what I liked. But now The world knows the consumer And I just don't know I don't know if that's going to change. I think that's the world we live in. I really do. And I think it's a spectrum, right? And I think some people will, you know, want to be more forward about you know, self discovery and you know, I don't want to be fed as much, right? But I also think that just the world we live in. I also think that the other side of the coin is that we're living in a more egalitarian society, right? So it's like there are people on the internet who didn't have a place before, you know, you're being exposed to different people, you're being exposed to different things You know you're seeing different kinds of content, like people who are whatever that is, like I think that the other side of the coin is that like it's opening broadening the sort of spectrum of who can become, you know, there used to be a sort of mechanism for who got to be famous and who got to have a voice. And that doesn't exist in that anybody, you know, a lot of people can have a voice and's all that's a good thing. So we've come now inexorably to AI All right My maybe my own dim view is of the platforms that I don't think you share. but If I to describe the mistake that traditional media companies have made over the past ten years It's we will get enough scale. to bring YouTube to the table and cut us a bigger check than everyone else Right? Jonah Predty was just on decoder. and Maybe the original sin of millennial digital media was Jonahredti believed he could go so viral that Facebook would pay him money. And Mark Zuckerberg looked at him and said, now I can replace you with an army of teenagers who will work for free. killed most of these companies's like they're all gone. you still have that problem, right? Only have you have stars who have risen above it. But at any point You still have that problem, right? You have a bunch of stars in your roster who have risen above it, you have a lot of scale, you have good relationships with the platforms it seems like You still have no ability to bring Nil Mohan, the CEO YouTube to the table and get better rates for your talent Right? You have to monetize them in other ways And at some point Neil, an addamissary who runs Instagram They're going to start putting AI content into these feeds perfectly tailored to the consumer. They've already said they want to do this And they're going to start taking minutes of attention away. from all of the creators. and something else will happen And I'm saying this in sort of stark terms Because they say it all the time. They're not shy about it. Adam M Iseri just put out a blog post where he's like, maybe every Instagram app will be different for every person And I'm worried about what that will do to society, but we're going to do it anyway. And I imediately wrote Aam and said, you got to come on the show and Adams if you're listening, got to come on the show and talk about that with me But that's the future that platforms see they're going to even more infinitely tailor the contents of people. that they will make AI avatars of creators on YouTube. Somewhere they they will reap the rewards of the AI avatars of the creators on YouTube That's not ten years from now That's tomorrow Right, That's coming really fast. How are you thinking about hedging against those threats Nomo and said yesterday that, you know, YouTube's position is that there's too much AI slop out there and he wants to make sure that YouTu is a place for you know, real human made for human touched AI content. Do you believe him? do believe him. I think YouTube is the best place to tell a story And is one of the best places to tell a story U and I firmly believe that There has to be a human touch on on the product. I mean, it' obviously we're all talking about AI. and it's been interesting because in all of the meetings that I've been in with sort of creators and brands talking about it this week Everyone sort of goes the same thing, which is like, yeah, is a great tool But I There's only so many sort of chats bouncing on, you know, like it's just that you know, like you you get you look at a certain point you sort of look past the AI generated content and you're like, I see that AI is fine, it's whatever. L no one seems to be really gravitating towards this idea of like the consumer, I mean, does not seem to be gravitating towards this like polling is clear. they'reingad. They're not like it's not the content's not contenting. So like, will it exist, of course. But listen, we just saw this massive thing go down in New York with the Nips, right? this insane desire for this like human connection and for you know, the conversation was taking place on these platforms and then it was taking place offline. And I think that like that we're only going to see more of this sort of the relationship between platforms and the content and creators building these communities and building these audiences and then sort of Figuring out these IRL experiences. It's not a coincidence that there was that this ground swell around these sort of moments and finding this community and finding your people. And I think that that's a little bit of a you know, the other side of the coin to like the AI content. Yeah. And I think, you know, the opportunity for platforms now is for them to continue to protect the creator or the artist in the midst of everything that's happening with they and be able to balance the ecosystem you know, make sure that You know, the human you know can still survive. and they have a real opportunity to do that. I mean You look at what these platforms had done in terms of producing stars and you know where we were ten years ago to where we are today And now they need to preserve that If I look around C and just conversations I've had here, two days ago I interviewed the CEO Digitas, huge ad agency. She's great. And she's a texio She thinks about data and scale and platforms, and that is one side of the advertising industry R? How how much data can we collect to put the right product, the right time and the right shelf at Walmart. And that is how she thinks. Then there's the Creatater side, which is like the human side. It's like the cuddly face of can But actually everyone here is transacting on data. Like there's a lot of money floating around data here frrankly, by terrifying ways. It feels like the platforms are continuing use the presence of the creator, the presence of the stars to sort of L's like, don don't look at our real business. Don't look at where the real scale is, which is Meta will perfectly target creative to you and maybe even generate it with AI because that is the growing part of their ad business. And Mark Drorergas said it out loud You just give us some money. We will AI generate the ads perfectly for individual consumers and we'll just deliver you business results. The whole Ad ecosystem here like knows this is coming for them. they think this is an existential threat It seems like both of you are just much more confident that that human face of this business, the creator economy will outlast the sort of naked ambition of the tech executives that run these platforms evenven though they keep saying they're going to put more AI in the feeds And it's not like the AI content is getting worse Right's it's something Right. But what we see is that there's a direct relationship between Success Relevancy drives drives. Conversion L the more relevant content is, the more relevant the brand working with the creor,ike the more relevant the partnership, the more success that comes from it. And I just don't know that you're going to see that level of sort of relevancy from AI generating this continuation of like your words, the AI slop content. But you know, Why don't think it slop? For example, every creator I know, right the pressure to make more stuff just exists. Some of the youngest tech TikTokers I know. They just are like, I have to make four posts a day every single day. Like that's the way I'm going win That's That's a lot of pressure to create E one of those videos is valuable for a day or a week and then they're gone R? Like you don't have catalog value. Of course they're going to start using AI to make some of that content. They're going to relieve the pressure in the most natural way. Right. But that's using it as a tool to enhance their. But I just think it's a small jump from there to like let YouTube make the next video for me. And now we're not really having an AI slot conversation, right? The platform is helping the creator and some Maybe very meaningful way And then it's a small jump from there to. we made a VTuber, like there's a totally virtual creator. And I actually think UTA reps some VTubers, right? There's just a spectrum from slop to syynthetic creator It looks like it's compressing more rapidly than maybe anybody thought it would I mean, I mean, listen, not no. but again, I think the idea is like audiences are built from that the human component of it And community is built. and community ultimately is the most important thing that that these creators have. And I don't you know, you can't build community solely from AI content And you know, I to keep phrasing it in this way, but I think that's the opportunity because I firmly believe that these worlds will cohbituate, you know whether it's, you know open AI or it's anthropic you know, they have incredible executives in place who are meeting with and like we have incredible relationships with those platforms just like we do YouTube and you know, the video and social media platforms. Do you worry about your creators likenesses being taken, their voices being taken? We see this happening all over the place. Sure we worry about it, but Is there have a mechanism to stop it? No. I mean, is what the question is there' a mechanism to Yeah I undermstand.ike one of the things I think UT provides at scale is You have relationships to the platforms and the platforms are full of synthetic content. Prator's face is being used. Pater is being redressed. I see that all the time now Do you have the ability to go to platforms and say, we need to stop this, right? There's not like a great legal mechanism yet in any of our countries to like, say, that's my likeness, please take it down I'm wondering if you have come up with those solutions with the platforms of show letting it happen I mean, I listen, I don't think that there's any solutions, you know to any of the sort of nuance of that. I think that, you know, we work on behalf of our clients to make sure that, you know, their name and likeness aren't being used You know, to the extent that we can to your point, like whet whether that's in the confines of like legal or whether it's through legal channels or what have you, you know, we're out to protect our clients to the extent that obviously we want to. Yeah, I'm curious. that just feels like the bleeding edge of having to protect your clients Right. It's very easy to reuse the content, it's very easy to steal people people's likenessance, it's very easy to steal people's voices. It just feels like there's some part of the creator economy that's going to run into that. A just massive scale. I mean There's a reason there's deep face legislation floating around. Everyone understands 's a problem. I'm just wondering if you're hearing that from your creators and if you're taking that to the platforms. I think that you know, the platforms have also been incredibly responsible in protecting The talent too. I mean, you look at, you know, the tools and that YouTube has come out with and, you know, like like I said earlier, like this is where the platforms have a continued opportunity to prioritize and protect, you know, the human beings that power the storytelling. Yeah You both have to g give me a lot of time. I just want to wrap Like a very quick lightning around question. We exist in a time of like huge platforms What do you see as an AsyN? Is there a next platform on the rise that you've got your eye on? Is there's another move digitally that people should be Where's the next group of creators going to come from I think there's going to be a real resurgence in live content I think, you know we saw an incredible boom around that, you know, pre COVID and into early COVID. And then as people started to into the world, the business just started to change. Yeah. But I think, you know and that business was so concentrated in gaming or you know, more streaming culture. And I think we'll start to see you know, other categories that, you know and and niches and verticals that really start to thrive in that medium. Yeah. What are you inna? I mean, listen, Jen Alpha Marketing consuming. all C twenty thirty six? We're gonna come back around. What sex for you todayA? What should we be looking at from the both of you? That's such a hard question to answer because there's just so so conversations going on, so many things. And by the time we answer it, we will have iterated on it. You know, we're constantly we're constantly evaluating all of the different opportunities and directions we can go and then you know, something happens with content or You know we're moving at the speed of content. We're moving at the speed of our he here. You heard it live. I'm to take my royalty back. This is really great. Thank you so much for joining D Kutter. Thank you