Immaturity and the Future of AI

When I scraped my car in their parking garage, I was worried that it could be a long process to take care of it. likeike a landscaper's first day trimming a hedge maz I have definitely already been here. Now is it left, right or right, left Well mayaybe I'll cut a path out and find my way back later. But it wasn't like that. I filed a claim in under two minutes on the GaICo app, and they handled it from there. It was taken care of almost as quickly as it happened. It feels good to get help quick. It feels good to GaICo. Hello andlcome to Coder. I'm E Li Pellll, editor and Chief Vir and Coder is my show about big ideas and other probles. Today I'm talking with Liz Lopoto, who spent the last month covering the Musk v. Altman trial and all of its chaos. You'll hear her describe the courthouse as a zoo and explain that there are protests of one kind or another happening outside every single day. Both Elon Musk and Sam Altman are big personersalities People have lots of feelings about both of them in the AI industry. And somehow, after all of this, nothing really happened. The jury found that Elon had filed his lawsuit after the Statute of limitations had run out. You'll hear a Liz explain exactly why the jury had to find that and what else is going on here. Beyond the technicalities of the Statute of limitations, this trial was nominally about opening eyes conversion to a for profit entity from a nonprofit And if the way Open eye went about that conversion cost you lot eness money. But I think we all know this case was really about Elon Musk being mad at S. Altan or at open A eye for being successful without him. and wanting Sam and the company punished in some way So in a room full of very emotional, untrustworthy, unreliable narrators all fighting with each other Did anyone even have a reputation left to lose? Is there a floor here for the AI industry Liz has a lot of thoughts here. I always enjoy having her on the show. Here's Liz L Poto on Musk V. Alman. Here we go Liz Lapoto, you are a senior chaos reporter here at the Vverge dot com dot You just discovered the Sam Malton and Elon Musk trial. Wlcome to De Coder. Al'wayss a pleasure to be here. I feel like it's always some new, relatively insane thing that we're talking about. We have to stop meeting under these circumstances I think these are your favorite circumstances. They are my favorite circumstances.very A few times a year we drive you absolutely bady by sending you to cover something and this trial was one hundred percent one of those situations. The copy got increasingly unhinged. I think the audience liked it. But you were in the courtroom for the majority of Musk v. Altan. You got to see a bunch of the testimony live. as these guys took the stand? Is Mir Murati and others took the stand? We'll start at the high level. I think the audience probably knows Eon Musk lost But what was this case about and what were the vibes in the courtroom? There are two things that we should distinguish. There was what the case was ostensibly about and then there was what the case was actually about. and those are two entirely separate things So oststensibly, the case was about the violation of a charitable trust, which was that Elon Musk had donated a bunch of money to OpenAI Foundation And then they created a for profit He thinks that's a violation of his charitable trust and also The timing of that was right around what is known as the Bip when Sam Malton was briefly removed and brought back pin that it's going to be a more That's sort of what we're ostensibly there for. And because it was around the blip, Microsoft was accused of aiding and abetting. and Microsoft very quickly became my favorite part of the case That's what we were theoretically doing. But in reality, you there had been so many changing legal strategies around this. This case was filed, I think, two years ago in state court and then withdrawn and then put in federal court. And you know, there's just been sort of a myriad of things that have shuffled around since then, including like a charge that got right before we went to court. To me, I think that the main point of this was punishing Samalton and maybe trying to kneecap open AI And you know, this is like A case where it's like the two worst people you know are fighting U So it's kind of hard to root for anyone The most common like response that I tended to get when I would talk about this to people or when I would post about it on social media was like, can they both go to jail That's kind of the vibe. The courtroom was it was a little bit of a zoo during Musk's testimony. We had one woman who got called down in front of the courtroom by the judge and chewed out because she had been taking photos in the courthouse. On the very last day, we had a guy who was ejected because he had been recording the proceedings in the courtroom So there was like there were some shenanigans and then every time we would leave the courthouse, there would be some kind of protest going on, ussually behind the lawyers as they were trying to like give their daily summary and like spin what they had what they had done in the courtroom and then like parading behind them would be like, A guy in a cybertuck like holding like an Elon suck. Perfect So that was that was what that was. I want to come to the legal issues and partarticularly the ruling from the jury, there's a lot of mechanics there. I just want to second on the point that the goal here was for Elon Musk to punish him all and connect that to the protests and the comments you're getting on social media and certainly the comments we get every time we publish anybody Is there any reputation left to damage for Sam Altan or the AI industry as a whole. because it seems like Both these guys are at all time lows. I'm thinking about jury selection when the judge had to just say, it seems like no one likes Elon Musk, but we're going to have to trust that the jury will be fair. What's even left to take away here kind of think there's no flw about these things. One of the things that I will say is that like From my perspective, I also view Sam Alaltman as untrustworthy, which is one of the things that this trial was like really driving home is like one of the points that you know, Elon Musk's lawyers were making. I agree I also think everybody else in the trial was totally untrustworthy. It was like not just Sam Alton, it was all of them and One of the things that I found myself thinking about was that I think the person who really got damaged the most was Miram Murati who at least as far as I know, didn't have a reputation as being somebody who was untrustworthy or conniving or whatever And then in testimony from former open AI board members, we found out that she was one of the reasons that Sam Altan got fired And then was immediately texting Sam Utman like, oh, no, Sam, it's very bad. It's very bad, Sam You remember during this blip that like Baltman was fired for What was it was a pattern of being untrustworthy or something? It was he was not consistently candid with the board Which could have meant anything. anything And like the thing that I remember because I gossip with a bunch of journalists and we are ferocious gossips is all of us were like, o, he did something illegal Like let's find out what illgal thing he did Which like As far as I can tell, no, he didn't. Like it was just that he was engaging in what I would characterize as relatively normal executive shenanigans where you are maintaining your control of the company by sort of pitching your subordinates against each other, a strategy that is widely used in corporate America, by the way So you know, she wouldn't tell people that she was involved in his removal. And she was like the CEO, the interim CEO and then like publicly supported him and then like publicly was involved in bringing him back I think someone on the stand, I don't remember who Mera was waiting to see which way the wind would blow and didn't realize she was the wind That was Helen Toner, who was one of the board members who stepped down in this debacle becausecause you know, obviously like as this proceeded, it became clear that By firing Sam in the way that they had fired him, they had jeopardized the entire company One of the things that I thought was really interesting from Sam's testimony that I did believe, by the way is that he thought about just taking a job in Microsoft and getting paid and not having to deal with any headaches anymore. And like, I can certainly imagine after having been really publicly and embarrassingly fired and like having gone through, you know all of the annoying things that one goes through as a manager and especially as a CEO being like, you know what? I just want a paycheck. Who among us has not thought about retiring to a comfy job at Microsoft? And so like when he was talking about that, I was like, yeah, that actually that I believe that. That would that sound's real. And then he obviously changed his mind But one of the things that I thought was really interesting that is that also Helen Toner, who, you know, we saw in deposition testimony One of the things that we found out was that she was involved in potentially trying to sell open AI to Anthropic, a company that she has some ties to through the EA movement. And so like again, no one here comes off looking good. Like I thought for a while that Helen Toner was maybe the most reliable witness we had heard from and then in the cross on the deposition. it was like, so tell us about your relationship with Anthropic. And I was like, A That's actually the thing that struck me about this entire trial. Kal and Ton are being wrapped up in a propic is one thing, but the entire AI industry at the top. is like ten people wrapped up in each other emotionally, professionally, They're writing each other obsequious emails, particularly to Elon, just full of flattery and praise about how great everyone is. The idea that they're going to make AGI is taken for granted in some way, like these are the leaders of it a new religion in like a real way, you can see it and they all lack any management instincts or emotional maturity to deal with the kinds of tasks they're putting in front of them or the stakes or the money And you can just see it. like it's in the trial, it's in the evidence cracking under the pressure that they're putting one another under And there's no outlet In fact, the only outlet might have been Sasha Nadeela comes off as the coolest cucumber around becausecause he's just like, I don't know, is this going to make money Don't call me. Like that's basically his whole vibe Again, I loved Microsoft in this case. L I'm not a Microsoft user really. like, you know, I'm familiar with their products, which by the way, their opening statement was so good. It was just a list of things of Microsoft products you might have used like at some length Remember It was fantastic. They were just like, we're not sure why we're here, but you know us, we're Microsoft. You've used Windows, surely Do you like Xbox? That's us. So that was great. There was really a sense in which The only Ault in the room at any given time with somebody from Microsoft. We saw that over and over again, where Satinadeell is like, don't text me Don't leave a paper trail. His emails are not especially spicy. Like I think the spiciest they got is something like him being like, well, we don't want to be IBM and have them be Microsoft This is open.t he doesn't want to be the commodity provider of data center hardware and their software be the important thing, whichich is what happened I That's right, Which by the way totally understandable sentiment, I feel. Yeah, especially' from Microsoft. He's like, I know, I know what, I know what's happening here. That was like the spiciest thing we got out of Microsoft. Like that was it So these are people who In addition to sort of having the management chops and like having the sense of like what you do and don't, do we're also just like a little bit less dramatic And like over and over again, we'd have a witness and there would be some like really brutal and devastating cross from openp AI, and the Microsoft would get up and be like Was Microsoft there Was such an addela there Does anyone from Microsoft know anything about any of this No further questions, Your Honor Amazing. It was like Beautiful punchline every single time That's very funny We're going to pause here for a quick break. we'll be right back. When I got a new car, I thought my insurance premium would increase and empty my bank account, like if Fatween won the lottery. I've invested most of my winnings in chicken tenders because they're bone. But bro, I bought a house and it's sick, bro. I'm thinking the floor is gonna be all trampoline, bro. With a helllipad on the roof. The contractor said it's structurally unsound, but they're just big babies But switching to GIico saave me hundreds, so my bank account is safe. It feels good to save some hard earned cash. It feels good to GIico So Microsoft obviously put a bunch of money into open eye. Dadlla had that famous quote about being above them, below them, around them, and referring to Azure and its dependency in Azure and how deploy open AIs models But eventually the trial comes down to Did they illegally convert this charity to a for profit and along the way take something from Eiila Musk. What was the actual jury verdict on those counts The jury verdict was that Elon Musk filed the suit too late And the statute of limitations had run out I'm going to be real with you. I think that had there not been a statute of limitations question He still would have lost. This was a pretty weak case, but we're gonna start with the statute of limitations stuff because that is like the most relevant. And then I will walk you through all the rest of it because we did do all of this in exhausting detail and that was the last like month of my life. So one of the things that was part of Musk's case was that he claimed that he didn't think his trust had been violated and chill the blit And so for this reason, he was still within the statute of limitations. And the law, I believe, is that you need to file within three years We saw a bunch of evidence that he had been read in repeatedly on the conversion to a for profit various investment rounds. I found myself unexpectedly sympathetic to Sam Altman during this trial, so Cgrrat, Sam. He kept trying to like get Elon to like like him again. You know, there would be these emails where it was like, hey, like We're raising this round or he'd be like emailing people to see what kind of mood Musk was in if it was a good time to talk to him because you know, he just wanted to make sure that Elon knew what he was doing and like, was it a good time that for them to chat? Was Elon in a good mood? Which by the way, like if you have a person whose job it is to tell people whether you're in a good mood or not I strongly feel that suggests that you maybe are difficult How deep is today's cole? let's find out. before we we asked for money there was evidence of Musk being red in every single step of the way, knowing about the Microsoft investments knowing about like the fact that they were creating this for profit. In fact, there was a bunch of email evidence that he thoughtought that making O AI a nonprofit had been a mistake that it should have been for profit from the jump So there's just like there's a ton of evidence that separately from the timeline question suggests that open AI would have won this case, not least because like the charitable trust thing, the definition of a charitable trust, and I'm going to mangle this slightly because I am not a lawyer But you know you have to have like a specific purpose on your donations. And so you have to have established that this is a trust. And then the next thing you have to establish is that that trust was violated just looking at all of the donations, which we did in some depth, there were no strings attached that any of us saw No one at all remembered there being any strings attached. L onene of the more devastating lines of testimony was that Shavon Zillis was asked, were there strings attached to these donations? She was like, Well, not that I recall. And then in the closing statement, OAye's lawyerers like, manan, not even the mother of his children can corroborate his account. Okay that's brutal. So you know, there were no strings attached. and then we had a financial analysis that showed that that money was gone. very, very quickly that they had been spending because AI is expensive, they like spent it. they had spent it in the way that it was meant to be spent. All the other money that happened afterwards had nothing to do with Elom Musk So there was that. One of the things that I'm just going to put an asterisk on here that I thought was interesting but didn't think write about was that Musk had been paying the rent for open AI They actually had to go back and ask him for money because Neuralink was in the building And when they got accountants to try to get their books in order so that they could, you proceed The accountants were like Oh yeah, you can't be supporting somebody else's for profit business in this building. You need to get rent money from Neuralolink. They need to be And so my suspicion is not that you know, we went into this in any depth, but that Musk have been taking a write off like on all of all of those donations on this building and had been also taking that write off on the space that NeroLake was using, which is why then you know that money had to be paid back to OpenAI There's a lot here. I mean, there's a lot of just Elon Musk. There's Infinitely complicated like fractally expanding opening eye layers of compomanies within the nonprofit that board control and people can fire Sam Altman. All of that seems enormously complex and maybe worth some future litigation. The jury just went with statute of limitations And it seems like That's maybe all they should have been talking about if that's what was gonna and the case this quickly. whyy do you think that We spend all the time in the substance and the complication when Elon had just filed too late several things because I did get people asking me about this as well. Like isn't statute of limitations a legal issue? Why didn't the judge rule on this? Yeah. And the answer is there was a question of fact, which was when should Elon have known what was going on And he's saying I didn't know until the blip And so I'm within the statute of limitations and everybody else was saying, he's known the entire time, it's over That was the thing that was being litigated. It wasn't the only thing that was being litigated, but that was the one that ended up mattering is that the jury was like, yeah, he definitely like knew all of this was happening If the goal was to trash Sam Mtman, of course you would pick the blip Right? Because then you get to pull every document and email and text message from the blip into the trial into evidence. you had to publish it. We published it. Was that the goal? Was was Elon just saying, I only knew about this b? when Sam Mtman got fired in order to put all of that damaging evidence into the record I think that was what it was actually going on. I think it was also meant to distract open AI because they did have to pay this very expensive law firm to do some very expensive work to defend them They didn't just defend the statute of limitations, they defended all of the subclaims and all of the other sorts of things as well, which is why there is so much in our stories is that they were bringing forward as much as they could to defend every single part of every possible claim because they had to I think that like making Sam Alton look bad, distracting Sam Alton, maybe, you know rememoving resources as Altman approached an IPO. I think those were probably the primary goals. Musk would have been happy with a win. I think he certainly would have been thrilled to force Open AI to give up a bunch of money evenven if it went back to the OpAI foundoundation as he belatedly decided it should go. there are any of a number of things that I think he would have taken his icing on the cake and You know, he's he's said that he's going to continue this through the appeals process Ilan appeared at a Forbes conference and he said, I think this is a dangerous precedent to set If someone can take a nonprofit and convert it to a for profit, that undermines all charitable giving in America I don't think Elon understands how precedent works, but It seems regardless of that, he's going to keep tying open A up in litigation for as long as he can I mean, he said something very similar to that on stand, by the way. He has like some pet phrases he likes and like dangerous precedent to set undermines all charitable giving in America are like on the list. I think he does intend to tie open a eye up in litigation for as long as he possibly can, you know, bleeding them cash, which is a strategy that we've seen other billionaires use, most famously Sheldon Addelson, who went after a Las Vegas paper, if I remember correctly, not because like they had done anything wrong and they were in fact ruled not to have done anything wrong because defending the case was so financially expensive that they nearly went under That is a strategy you can use if you have unlimited resources is you can just bleed somebody out I do feel like if you're Elon Musk and you're really worried about rich people using their charities to enriched themselves, there are a handful of people in his direct orbit running the country you might want to might want to take a closer look at Like this seems like he's saying it because he just wants to keep screwing with open Air Oh absolutely. Like there's no doubt in my mind that this is like personal for him. And I the thing that I am unable to quite tell, I've been thinking about this for a while Is he personally pissed off at Sam Altman? Or is he just aronted that openp AI succeeded without him We' have to take aice sh forort break here, we'll be back in just a minute. Support for the show comes from Whatnot. Consistency pays off. It's what turns a business side hustle into something that lasts. And you can make it happen with Whatnot? Whatnot is the largest dedicated live shopping platform, whether it's beauty, collectibles, electronics, luxury fashion, even cookies. seellers are building real thriving businesses Anyone can sell, whether your business is big, small, or yet to exist According to their data, across Whatnot, the number of sellers making over one million dollars a year has doubled, and people selling on Whatnot sell ten times more than on other major marketplaces. N because you're not just listing products, you're building real connections with buyers As a seller, you go live and show off products in real time and turn what you love into real income We have a colleague who's tried Whatnot outut and theyve really enjoyed it. Search Whatnot. W H A T N O T in the app store, download and you can start selling right away This is my other question. Maybe you kill open an eye and it goes away, and you've bought yourself some time Elon has publicly said that they built Grock incorrectly, and they need to start over. they are selling a huge amount of dataenter capacity at Colossus One to Anthropic, who Elon has hated in the past, but he says it's all fine now because I showed up with a check to buy his data center capacity. Even if you kill open AI It doesn't make AI the winner They're basically starting over, as they publicly said, giving up their compute capacity What is the point of this except to just vindictively kill open eye? Like it doesn't seem like I can identify the competitive advantage here. Killing a competitor is not necessarily not a competitive advantage, especially If you kill the Let's say open eyees in first or second or third or something, or just like running in a different direction on the track at this point. Who knows what they're doing? If you're in last, it doesn't matter Like in some way like he's help anthropic in Google here. Think about this. Let's say Musk wins and Open AI has to disgorge all this money potentially just blows a hole in the side of the company. I can't rule out that Altman is enough of like a deals guy that he could patch it up, but let's say he can't Open AI is at the center of a web of deals. They are huge deals with places like Four weave an oracle and Microsoft All of these companies, every company in the AI space is like one degree of Kevin Bacon away from open AI, okay And so If you knock that company out, not only do you have a bunch of talent that comes free and like needs a job now which you can maybe hire You also have created conditions where you can negotiate really favorable terms in these now suddenly open data centers with companies that now suddenly have huge holes in the revenue I wish I could ascribe like that level of three D chess, you know, but there's a part of me that says this is just personal and vindictive And we're going to see appeals and further campaigns about how Sam Alutman stole a charity And that will be distracting for open AI on one level. And on another level, they're just going to continue selling Codex to people because it is good at writing code and a lot of software companies seemed very taken by that. Do you think this has any meaningful effect on opening eye in the future No I mean, like, here's the thing. We knew going into this trial, that Sam Otman did not have a reputation for being perfectly honest, right? That was the upshot of the blip There was a seventeen thousand word article in the New Yorker about this. This is something that I effectively think is priced in in the same way that Elon Musk's, let's say scatter shot Relationship with the trruth is also priced in in all of his companies. Like people know who these guys are. None of this is a surprise. whichich is why I think again, that the person who got hurt the most here is Mira Mirati, who did not have her reputation trashed before this So there's going to be an appeal. These companies are going carry on spending money. What do you think happens next? What should people be looking for? or is this one safe to set aside for now Let's set it aside for now. We had all the fun of going through their emails, We had their ridiculous text messages The biggest thing I think That was the takeaway from the trial that like matters is discovering that like Rrock sucks, even though Elon Musk had distilled everybody's model Which, you know, like to me, that's shocking. Not that I am an expert in AI, it's entirely possible that you can distill all these models and have your AI still suck I think that that really is a take home point is that One of the consistent things that we We're seeing in this trial is that The nerdiest of the nerds, Brockman and Ilia Scotzer. We're both like he's not really serious about AI And I came away being like, yeah, he's not serious buddy. He doesn't know what he's doing. Like we have all of the things that you talked about with like they're starting over from scratch, they're leasing out their data center capacity. They're doing all of these things that suggest that whatever Musk did with whatever billions of dollars because I think XAI was spending, the reporting was a billion dollars a month They're starting over from scratch, there's nothing. And like this is even with cheating by distilling everybody's models. Right. This is him saying we didn't build it the right way. They didn't actually do it proper training run, they distilled all the other models. And so they're not on the frontier, which by the way, has happened to other companies. Ma is out there saying that they were not on the frontier and they started over in a meaningful way. Like It this is a nascent industry. It's not clear how to do these things, or buildild these things or ship these things in the way that work. My big question coming out of all of this, is Boy this handful of people that have been entrusted with spending all this money asking for all these resources in many ways, pitching a vision of the future They seem so immature And even if that's priced in Did this trial just reveal that fundamentally they're immature? and maybe you should let the Microsofts and the Googles of the world. be in charge of deploying this technology. because at least the amount of like bureaucracy in place at those companies will slow them down. That could be one takeaway. given the way that Google has destroyed its own search engine for its AI models, I'm not clear that we want to include Google in this conversation just we're maybe talking about Microsoft And like maybe Apple. But yeah, like you want grownups in charge of this technology for sure The immaturity, I thought was really interesting because there was a recurring theme, which was that over and over again, you'd get somebody on the stand and they'd be like, ever since I was a child. I've dreamed of AI. I've thought about the smart computer and how amazing it would be. and it kept me up at nights when I was nine years old. And like I just want to say like first of all, that's stupid because that's fiction. And like if you can't tell the difference between fiction and reality, we have like bigger problems It's like, okay, but like some childhood dreams too. and like I want to be real with you, I just don't think that owning a horse is going to be like thing that makes sense for me you know At least they sent the Victorian industrialists to finishing school. That's basically what you're getting at. By the way, I just want to point this out As we're speaking, there is breaking news. Andres Carpathi has joined Anthropic Um, which is just capstone on this trial, right? He's like a main character. He gets recruited to and from all these companies. And now he's anthropic, which seems like far and away the winner of this whole thing. Like hands the cleanest products the most successful Why did you start laughing that hard A recurring theme in the trial was Musk poaching open AI engineers. and of course, Andrea Kaparthy was one of them. He went from open AI to Tesla because open AI when it was a foundation was pite Elodon in a way that's suggested it was not actually an ask, if you follow me to come work on autopilot because they were having a hard time with autopilot at Tesla. And so several engineers, including Greg Brockman went over and worked on autopilot while they were theoretically like working for openp AI. So if anybody was stealing resources from a charity I kind of think it was Elon Musk One of the people who permanently stayed was Karpathy. He shows up again and again, like this recruiting push that Musk made out of open AI while it was still a nonprofit, while he was still theoretically involved with it, while he was still theoretically on the board and had like fiduciary duty to the nonprofit. he was using it as a recruiting ground for Tesla. It's very good. Well, Liz, I have a feeling we're going to keep you very busy with these characters in the year to come you know, my prediction is that openen eye does not end the year looking the same as it does There will be yet more change at that company I think that's right. The other cherry that I'd like to put on top of all of this, speaking of anthropics. is that one of my personal favorite parts of this trial occurred while the jury was out of the room. and it was an evidence dispute about whether or not the jury could be shown a jackass trophy G. Like imagine a participation trophy that is just the back half off a donkey and said something like, you know, never stop being a jackass. for safety, for AI safety It was presented to An AI safety guy who when Musk was on the way out at Open AI and was doing a Q and A session. was like, hey, it sounds like you're really interested in speed over safety. L I don't think that's a good idea and must call them a jackass. So would you like to take a guess Who was one of the people involved in presenting that trophy Was it Copravi? It was Dario Amadee. amazing Perfect And that tracks with everything anthropic has stood for, right? This is everyone's leaving to start a safer AI company Indaria was like among the first perfect. Did you take the trophy with him The lawyers had it. So I assume he's gotten it back. We published a photo, but I remain very entertained by this trophy. So like hats off to the fine engineers who eventually did leave in Manthropic because it seems like they have a pretty good sense of humor. Yeah, they figured it out. All right, Liz, we'll have you back soon, hopefully under more rational circumstances, but it's always a pleasure. Thanks for being on Cutter. My pleasure Id like to than Liz for taking the time to join Coder and than you for listing hope enoyed. If'd like let us know what you thought about this episode or really anything else at all, drop us a line. You can email us at Deoder at theverge d. com. We really do read all the emails. or you can hit me up directly on Threads or Blue Sky. We're also on YouTube, you can watch full episodes at DeoderPod. We also have a TikTok and Instagram, they're also at Decoder Pod and they're a lot of fun. If you like Decoder, please share with your friends and subscribe over get your podcasts Decoder's P productuction version of thexo Podcast netork show is produced Kate Cox Nixstat and edited by Urs Wright. ourureditorial director is KevincChe. The Decoder of Music is by Break Master Cylinder. We'll see you next time We all do it You have a night for yourself but don't like the sound of the silence, so you turn on the TV just for the ambiance It's a little trick that helps you feel like you've got company and aren't alone. And other insurers, well, they may make you feel low. But when you switch to GICo, you've got claims reps available around the clock So whenever you need, you'll have people around to help And let's turn on the washing machine, just for good measure Isn't that soothing? It feels good to have support. It feels good to Gaio