Reflecting on Character Journeys

This ad is sponsored by ZakDoc. Hi It's Danny Pellgrino from Everything Ionic. Have you been putting off that annual doctor's appointment because you don't w to make the call? Or maybe you've been meaning to find a new dentist, but you have no idea where to start? I find that's especially true when you move. It's hard to find your people. I've been there, which is why I use ZockDoc. Now as a busy podcast or parent and someone who's always juggling a million things, I love anything that makes life easier And ZakDoc lets you search and compare local in network doctors with over two hundred fifty thousand providers across more than two hundred specialties. You can read reviews from real patients, find a provider who feels like the right fit, see actual appointment openings, and book instantly. I recently had a last minent and health issue pop up and I needed to see someone fast and instead of calling around Or sitting on hold, I found a doctor on ZakDoc and booked an appointment in just a few minutes. and made the whole process so much less stressful taking care of your health just got easier. download the Zach Doc Today, that's ZakDoc, ZOC DOC and book that appointment on your to do list Introducing the Total Solutions advantage only from Comcast Business. It's the largest fastest fiber powered network for small business, gig speeds with equipment and security included and a five year price lock No one does business like Ccast business. Let's Switch today. Get started for sixty dollars a month for twelve months when you add an advanced solution to a qualifying internet package. Limited time offer. restestrictions apply. newew customers only requires three hundred megab per second internet, security edge and additional qualifying service, one year agreement, payerless billing and autoay bank account required. Tax and fees extra This summer, JBL is on a mission to help you tune into what you love. audio books, podcasts, and everything in between with JBL's live headphones. These headphones are perfect because of their high res sound, making your fav stories and voices come alive with so much detail, exactly the way they were made to be heard Plus, they have eighty hours of battery life, so you can binge without pressing pause all summer long Find your pair at jbL. com Hello everyone and welcome to a decoding TV bonus episode aboutbout the HBO original series Half Man I'm David Chen justust as a quick FYI, this episode that we're recording right now will take the place of the normal decoding TV episode that would come out this week Nxt week, Patrick Klepk and I will be back to discuss the new Apple TV show, Cape Fear. as our show of the week on the regular decodting TV podcast But we have a special treat today because we are going to be discussing in detail Half manan season one. I'm pretty sure it's going to be the only season based off of how this one ended But a very special guest joining us today. She is the lead evening news editor at slashfilm. com, contributor of Fangoria magazine, and the host of this Endsap Prom, a podcast that analyzes coming of age stories about or marketed at teen girl audiences BJ Calangelo, thanks for chatting with me today at decoding TV Oh, hi Hi, Hya, than you so much for having me here. This is a show that I have not had a lot of people to talk about with Hard same, hard same, BJ. And what we're going to do today on the podcast is We're going to start just by sharing our overall thoughts. And then I will read a summary of the final episode and we'll dive into u full spoilers And our interpretation of what exactly went down at the end and so on But yeah, opening part will just be vague references to the plot and nons spoilery overall thoughts, followed by full spoilers. But let's start with that comment, BJ, which is This is not a show that I have had many people to talk with about either. And that is because it is very difficult and unpleasant to watch And therefore, not to show that I feel comfortable really recommending to anyone Uh and I'm curious how you have approach that? Is this a show? It sounds like you are compelled by the show. Is it a show that you feel comfortable recommending to other people This is a show that I feel comfortable recommending to other people if I already have a preree existing knowledge of their relationship with difficult media because think What is both helpful and harming this show is that it's from Richard Gadd who gave us Baby Reindeer, one of the most acclaimed limited series in recent memories. It was a massive phenomenon on Netflix, and that is also a pretty difficult show to navigate Halfman is that on speed. It is so much more intense. It is so much harder Nhing cocaine as it were. But ye It is it's so much more intense. I think that the themes that it is exploring are a lot more specific to a very specific lived experience, one that does not get talked about as much frequency as it should. And so I kind of use baby reindeer as the entry point. How did you react to baby reindeer? How did you feel about it? And then I start sort of kind of pushing on the fences a little bit and learning like, okay, do you have any relationship with er trauma films or queer trauma stories, How does that make you feel? How do you deal with exploitation cinema or even a genre that this is not, but I think is a good barometer of like how do you deal with rape revenge films? What is your relationship like with that? And then from there, I can go, okay Here's what the show is about. here is what some of the context is It might not be a good time for you. There are a lot of people that I know who are able to handle difficult material, but because this is also a queer show, because this is also a show dealing with masculinity. And right now, especially if you're living in the states, it is a really difficult time for a lot of queer people politically. They just don't have the capacity to sit through something like this. And that's fair and valid. I'm never going to like force somebody into watching something if it's not good for them mentally at that moment I think one question I have for you overall, having we both watched the whole show is this show subjects its characters and the viewer to a lot of punishment Right. You watch Cruel things happen, you watch people being harmed. often as collateral damage, you know, needlessly and recklessly. And just a lot of unpleasantness happens. like a lot of stuff that U it just hurts your heart or makes you cringe and what have you And the question at the end of the day is Is that worth it? Like, do we feel we've learned something at the end of day because I'm okay with that kind of trauma being inflicted on characters and or myself as the viewer, you know, but I wanted to mean something And so my question for you is like, Do you feel like you learned something from this that it was worth the journey for you? For me, yeah, honestly. I genuinely think that selfish paths of self discovery stories are some of my favorites. I love watching people sort of terrorize their own world in an attempt to either figure something out about themselves or distance themselves from something that they know is inside of them that they are not willing to face and actually showing the damage and the ripple effect that it does have to the people in their lives and the community. I think a big problem that we run into when we have stories about people who are deeply traumatized or who have been abused or who enact abuse, it is seen as the singular problem This person is the problem. What they are doing is self destructive to them. and sure it upsets people around them, but we don't really ever focus on how badly it can go for every single person in your direct orbit. And I appreciated the honesty in this show about it I will say I am just slightly more mixed on it than you, but overall still very positive on the show. I mean, I think that there are Moments in this film, or sorry in this show, I should say. There are moments in Half Man that Art. what I would describe as pure cinema, pure emotional catharsis where the level of emotion has risen so high. And then there is a release. There's just like a catharsis that occurs during the course of You know, I could name several episodes, several moments and several episodes And it's just like nothing else on television, right? And often that catharsis comes as a result of One or two men bearing their souls to the other And that's just very rare to see as well And so you have He's just really high emotional highs that are unique to a show like Half Man Uh and alone make the show worth watching kind of But yes, you do have to go through a lot to get to that point. And so I'm a little bit more apprehensive as to whether or not it was worth all of that But overall There's nothing else like this on television, right? And it's like I have to salute that. I have to admire that and u And therefore Give it some kind of praise, give it some kind of flowers here. So Why don't we start talking about spoilers for the show? So we are in full spoilers for Half Man I will say that I was really not sold on even finishing the show Until I got to episode four Mm And I thought episodes one through three. We're pretty sameamy It's You're watching Rubin this hurricane force of a human like carve his way through Nil's life And The most unfortunate and upsetting thing that's going to happen pretty much happens every single episode. and it's painful to watch It's painful to watch. likeike the episode where Alby gets brutally beat I I literally, as I'm watching, I was like, I bet this is going to happen. and I predicted, you know, in my head that there's going to be some misunderstanding and Ruby's going to end up beating Alby. And that's exactly what ended up happening. And U And I was like, yep, that's the most upsetting thing that could possibly happen. And then, you know, episode three kind of continues that a little bit Then you get to episode four And it completely flips the script. And Nile is no longer the good guy protagonist for which all these horrible things are happening. He himself becomes the in some ways malevolent force or rather Um Not necessarily malevolent, but The way in which he's conducting himself is causing tons of collateral damage to the people around him. And you al must start feeling a lot of sympathy for Ruben in a way that I never did in the first three episodes. And I was amazed at the show's ability to get me to flip my sympathies like that. That's when I was like really started taking note of the show and like, wow, maybe this is not exactly what I thought. B J, did you have a similar moment Oh yeah. I mean episode four completely reshaped the way that I was viewing these characters so much so that I then went back and watched the first three episodes again to see if I could find the little breadcrumbs that Richard Gad was leaving that would indicate that Nile does have these little moments. like there are these cracks in the veneer, so to speak. and they're there. They're subtle. They're very subtle, but they are definitely there. And I think that that's what makes this show so compelling because it's very easy from the outside to just view this as a story about Ruben this deeply traumatized young man who takes advantage and manipulates and, you know, ruins the poor innocent bambi Nile forever. But the more you watch it, the more you recognize that like Nile is also in a hell of his making and he actively wants to be there. There is something to be said about people who continue to choose misery because it's what they're comfortable with or people who choose to cause misery because it allows them to bring everyone else around them to that level that they're currently sitting in and is compelling storytelling to me. Yeah, I read this book. this last year called The Crage to Be Disliked. I don't know if you've heard this book, but it goes into Adlian phhilosophy and the main thrust of it is what you just said is that like There's people who are miserable. And they say out loud, Ohh, I wish it wasn't like this. I wish I wasn't this miserable But in reality, they're getting something out of it They're in some way benefiting from it. They're more comfortable with it. they like it to some degree. And a lot of the reason why people don't change is because Change is hard and They're deriving some benefit and comfort from the situations that they're in right now. And you really see this come into effect in episode four. U when N essentially the plot of that episode is Nyil still struggling with his sexuality Uh and Then tormenting himself that Ruben is out there in the world and living an amazing life. And how can And also theoretically helping to bankroll what Nil is doing in his life and this is just completely unacceptable to him And eventually they have this big confrontation. But yeah, you see Nile alienate his mom. you see Nile alienate His friend, Joanna who when she ended the friendship with him, I was like, oh man, that's what's what's cool about this show is in general, I'm not a fan of big time jumps and shows, but you get a glimpse of all the years of dysfunction that that relationship must have had when Jonas says, Hey, I can't do this anymore. And you realize this is probably like the eighth time he's come to her asking for money or for some kind of assistance Um But yeah, it is a brutal episode and made me feel like, wow, maybe Ruben is the one that is more wronged in this relationship, you know Maybe Ruben is the one that needs to be needs to deserve our emmpathies And I also get I also just love stories like that where I love when a story forces you to align yourself with somebody on paper that you would never align with in your real life. because that is exactly who Reuben is as this character. The things that we see in the first three episodes, especially when we're talking about the way that he he gay basashes Albie. L that is what we are witnessing is a gay bashing. And that is something that In my heart of hearts, it's like, no, I would never, ever, ever align myself with this person, have any sympathy. I would write them off. And then you watch episode four and you see somebody who from the surface looks like they're desperately trying to get their life in order, make amends, do the right thing. and it's like, No, that is right. I do need to remember that people can have capacity for change and make space for that and hope that they are getting the support that they need to make our world a better place. And that is a total just like Mind fuck. Yes I think any show that can do that, there is something special about that, right? Like any show that can Turn your sympathies that much and reorient who the protagonist even is here. really has something special going for it. And that's when it really caught my attention. I was I thought I basically I thought I knew what the show was. I thought I was like, o, it's going to be we're just seeing this guy get run over by Ruben the whole show. and that's like kind of boring. And I understand why people don't like it And then we get to episode four and I'm like, oh wow I was wrong. I was wrong by the show And I do think that the entire second half of the show is the descent of Nile. it's really like that trend from episode four continues where Nile from my perspective continues to do more and more unforgivable things as the show goes on to the point where He is almost irredeemable by the end, in my opinion I'm right there with you. Yeah. ye. Let's talk about the finale. Okay. so I'm going to read from the Wikipedia plots of the finale, and then we'll pause and talk about some of the stuff that happens. The finale takes place in twenty fourteen in the timeline of the show And Ruben is in jail for attacking Benjie, but he wants to turn his life around for Mona and their son, Baird, who was born while he was in jail Nyil's a semi autobiographical novel about his experiences with Ruben becomes a hit, but the public is more interested in Ruben than in him And quote, let's just talk about that for a second. I thought That was kind of a funny. Like the show does not have that many funny moments. But that was kind of a funny moment when he's at the press conference And he's like, arere there any questions that aren't about Ruben? And like Bill one hasn't Ruben's mother Maura dies, and Nile informs Ruben in prison, causing Ruben to lash out at Nile and quote, let's talk a little bit about that. I mean, here, we see the kind of dissent I was talking about where Nile is u continuing to go to these clubs and take drugs and emerge with STDs and in a terrible state. and we see him vomit O Ruben's mother and it's just brutal, man. It's brutal. Yeah yeah G The second that Nil, so he's hanging around outside like steam rooms and bathhouses, but we know that he's doing drugs, so he's in the ChemSc scene, which is an incredibly destructive scene, especially for somebody like him who is very clearly doing this because he is still fighting the fact that he's gay all these years later and I think somethingomet that might be hard for especially today's audiences to process is that we are still witnessing somebody who realized they were gay in the eighties, in the UK. It was a very hostile time for that to happen and clearly those those wounds are running very, very deep. But what makes Nil so frustrating is that he does have resources. He has people who who are willing to help him and he just fights it at every turn. So when he does puke on Mura this dying woman. It's just like you're purging everything from your body at that moment and you're putting it on the people that you are blaming for this, which would be his motherss Uh, and It's just disgusting. It's a disgusting act of him blaming everybody else instead of looking inward at all. Yeah, I mean It is a very complex situation because he's trying Richard Gad is trying to say something about The impact of homophobia in Scotland and the United Kingdom during the time that people like Nile and Ruben were growing up, right? And like the deep wounds that that can leave and how it can putut people into these situations where they're perpetuating these horrifying cycles Um But then at the end by the end of this episode, which we'll talk about in a little bit, he it I think what the show is saying is that that homophobia is not sufficiently explanatory for some ofations. That's my interpretation, right? Oh no, I'm right there with you. I think that's exactly what it is. It's like, yeah, I can especially with both of them, we both learn that they have experienced unfathomable trauma. Yeah. but so has like everyone else in their lives because everyone else in their lives has experienced them Well said, well said Nyil's lifestyle of drugs and sex spirals until he reunites with Albi years after Rubin's assault and they rekindle their romance And quote, let's talk a little bit about this. Did you have any thoughts on the character of Albi? I thought this is Um I will say one thing I thought was interesting about this character was U When You meet Albi in I want to say episode And then you meet like older Alby as well in episode two and you see his face is disfigured from Ruben's vicious attacks. My mind like filled in a hole Story between those two points. You see him the me in university and then you see them about to get married. And then my mind was like Oh, okay, like I see what has happened there And I'll just say BJ, what actually happened was not what I filled in, right? Be there's a whole thing with episode five where Nyile goes on this whole side story with this woman named Ava. who he impregnates and then has like a very self destructive a string of behavior with her U, before he finally like finds his way back to Albie likeike I thought it was a more linear line, you know But like he has gone through so much between when they meet in university and when they reunite again. And so One of the things I appreciate about the Alb storyline is like I thought I yet again, I thought I understood what that story was, and then the show subverted my expectations again. Any thoughts on Albi and their relationship? Yeah, the So if there's any character in this show that I'm like this is a net good, this is a pure good character, it's Bby because he is wonderful when they meet at university. He is understanding, but he's also very firm with Nial and is like, you need to get it together because like I'm not going sit here and walk you through this. I'm also not going to be kept as a secret. If you can't accept what you know you clearly know about yourself, like that's on you, That's not on me And then when they reunite, he's also deeply understanding and deeply empathetic to what Nile is going through. He even admits himself that he has a history of going through these chem sex parties. And we can kind of fill in the blank of, He might have done this as a result of the trauma he experienced of just getting his face stomped in and almost dying at the hands of Ruben. But you know what? he's been through it. He came up the other end and now he wants to help other people. He still clearly has some affinity and affection for Nile, especially because Nile could have lied on the stand and protected Ruben at their court case, but he didn't. He did the right thing. So he knows Nil does have the capacity for goodness And he wants to help him get through that I love Alb as a character. My only like complaint reallyally is that I would have loved to see Alby's reaction to what happens in the final moments of this show. But at the same time, I also recognize that at the end of the day, this is a show about Rubin and Nyil in their journey. And so We don't really see anybody else other than them makes sense to me. I just love Albi so much This episode is sponsored by ZDoc. Have you been putting off a doctor's appointment or need a dentist and you don't know where to start? We've definitely been there and that's why we use ZakDoc Actually over the holidays, Michael had a dental emergency and seemingly every office was closed, but we hopped on to ZockDoc, found an in network dentist, had great reviews, saw real time appointments available, which was key. It was on New Year's Day, and booked an appointment in just minutes. It took so much of the stress out of the already stressful situation ZockDog makes it easy to search and compare over two hundred fifty thousand local in network providers across more than two hundred specialties. so you can find the right doctor or dentist and book instantly Taking care of your health just got easier, download the ZockDoc app today and book that appointment on your to do list. That's ZOC DOC ZockDoc. Introducing the Total Solutions advantage only from Comcast Business. It's the largest fastest fiber powered network for small business, gig speeds with equipment and security included and a five year price lock No one does business like comcast business Switich today? Get started for sixty dollars a month for twelve months when you add an advanced solution to a qualifying internet package. Limited time offer. restestrictions apply. new customers only. requires three hundred megab per second internet, secity edge and additionalifying service, one year agreement, paperless billing and aut pay bank account required. tax and fees extra Yeah, I did have a question for you though. I'm curious The one I agree with you, Alby is a net good for society, but the one moment in the show where I kind of questioned Alby's behavior was at the very end of episode two when Nile has lied about coming out to Ruben And then Alby takes control of the situation and says, I'm going to tell Ruben, right? I'm going to tell Rubin what you lied to me about telling him. But before he can do that, Ruben brutally beats him Um, We had nobody's perfect Yeah I was going I was because I think like outing someone is generally considered Yeah. Oing is not's not great. It It's truly not great. but I also in that moment, I'm like, he's very young. Niile has just kind of broken his heart has lied to him. He feels incredibly betrayed. He's lashing out, he's young So it's not great. it's not a good situation, but also I have a lot of empathy for young queer people who have been made to feel like they have to be a secret and how violating and how much that can also hurt and how you want someone else to hurt that badly I think why I love Albi so much is because he's like the one person in this show who does learn from his mistakes Uh, fair enough, fair enough All right, let's continue discussing the finale episode Um So With Alby's encouragement, Niil visits Ruben in prison and finally comes out to him To his surprise, Ruben is accepting, having always suspected, and criticizes him for wasting his life trying to belong Nile blames Ruben's language for his self loathing But Ruben deflects back at Nil for rejecting his own truth. Rubin also reveals he was the victim of sexual assault from his own father when he was young, resulting in him feeling like a half man, which is the title of the show And the two become open and vulnerable to one another E quote. Let's just talk a little bit about this before we get to that big reveal, of course. You know, when I was referring earlier to these big emotionally cathartic moments. This is one of them where He finally comes out and then H I will say that I did not expect you know, I don't know what I expected Ruben's reaction to be. I didn't think that Ruben would super negatively as Nil intended. but I didn't think I did not think that Rubin would just You know Judo turn it completely around on Nile as he did in the final moments. and there is there is a line that Rubin says that I think it's going to stick with me for a really long time. He says, quote You've wasted your whole life. dancing to other people's tunes But you've never had the rhythm, and quote, which is like Wow. poetry Doodle. He read him he read him like a book that moment. And it is just a brutal line and it's like it's something that's very thought provoking of Oh What extent do we, the viewer? shape our lives around like what people's expectations of us should be and how we should behave And like to what extent do we want to dance to other people's tunes versus ourselves and do we have the rhythm Anyway, BJ Cangegel, any thoughts on this big emotional moment between the two Oh, I mean, this scene played out in a lot of ways the way that I really hoped that it would is that one, we would finally get the truth behind you know, kind of explaining why Ruben is the way that he is. And the show, I think does breadcrumb a little bit that his father has done this because we see his immediate hostility towards him when he's very, very young. I also just knew in my heart of hearts that Rubin was going to be fine with Nile being gay because one he definitely already knew based on Nile very first sexual encounter that we see in the first episode Ruben has known., but also immediately kind of pulls the rug out from under Nile of this thing that you have been so afraid of your entire life, this thing that you have been letting have power over you and have control over you, your entire life of like, oh my God, if Rubin ever finds out, it's gonna be so bad and it's not bad at all. It's like you yeah this was ind of for nothing. Like so much what you've done all this time. wasastting your life. for nothing anyways. Yeah, all you had to do was communicate and you couldn't do it because you were so afraid and you let that fear control you. So I loved watching this scene and then I lo where it goes where suddenly they're having kind of just like the maniacal laughter confessions, which I think is so deeply cathartic and beautiful. And then of course, Nial has to take it too far One other thing I want to add about this scene though is I thought I knew what the title of the show was referring to right the whole time, which is that In many ways, each of these men are half men because they kind of complete each other And it was interesting to get that, I'm sure multiple meanings are acceptable for it, you know, but But it was interesting to get that kind of Um clarification that o, one explicit reference is that he feels his own trauma and his victim like him being a victim of his father's assaults. has made him feel like a hf Um, and that's kind of an interesting u It was interesting to me to kind of again, reorient what I thought the title meant and the significance of it to the characters Anyway in the present Ruben attacks Nile in the barn during his wedding for sleeping with Mona and they have a grueling fight Nile manages to stab Rubenide, mortally wounding Ruben But Ruben manages to smother Nile to death telling his brother that he loves him The dying Ruben sits down on a bale of hay staring at N's corpse, endote. Now I will just say that The show has previously, I think in episode four revealed to you that Reuben is dead. Like Ruben's dead body is pulled out of the barn And so I fully expected Nile to win this fight. And I was a little shocked when Nile is the one that ends up dying and the camera lingers on dead Nile and it's confirmed that is definitely Nile. He's dead. He's not alive anymore. And the way it ends is quite interesting where we and then I thought, okay, well now we're going to see Rubin die And then we don't. And we don't see what happens, Ruben. Basically, I don't know if you can tell the theme here is that the show iss constantly subverted by expectations So what did you think of how this all played out? And what is your interpretation of the ending? Richard Gat has said purposelyy left things ambiguous, right? And I think that means What happens to Ruben after the show cuts to black is what he's refering to. But yeah, what did you think of what happened at the end So the first thing is that I love that this is an example of mutually assured destruction. I also love that in stories I love the decision to have Ruben smmother Nile I think that is really poetic in the way that he goes out is being smothered by Ruben and also in a way where he's not being stomped out the way that that is Themo that we have seen Ruben have whenever he's filled with this much rage is that he tends to stomp people out, but he can't do that with Nile. He has to look him in the eyes, He has to tell him he loves him. It's very much feels almost like a mercy killing in a way, which is pretty horrific to watch. The fact that he has this wound that is implied to either be a mortal wound or you know there's still a knife in there, maybe Ruben is going to take his own life from this. Either way, they are both dying, but I think the ambiguousness is whether or not he's dying from that wound or if he's speeding up the process and doing it himself, but they're both leaving that barn in a body bag because goingo back to this title of feeling like Halfmen, they both feel like half men And the only time I think either of them feel like full men is when they have each other. So if one of them goes, they both have to go. You cannot survive as a half. You need that other half of you. And so that's been my interpretation, but I know people are frustrated with Gad leaving it intentionally ambiguous But I like that because ultimately I think that's at the central like that is the central thesis of The show and who these characters are, there are so many things about them that we will never know. There are so many things about them that the people in their lives will never fully know because they do keep secrets, because they do keep things close to the chest. They're not honest about anything. And so being denied that honesty, I think is just thematically appropriate Yeah, uh I think that fromom what I can tell people some people's reaction is I can't believe it ended with this big wrestling match, right? Like this very emotionally sophisticated show ends with basically These two guys kind of punching each other And On the one hand, I understand that point of view because I think like the strongest aspects of this show have not been the fight scenes, right? It has been theseese people having it out with words and figuring out how they feel about each other and themselves and so on Uh, and it's been really, really compelling. And so then just have like, brutal fight, like be the way it concludes. I understand why that is a let downown. On the other hand I think you're right that The thesis of the show is that they cannot exist without each other. There is this toxic codependency going on And so when one of them goes like like They have in a way that is so self destructive and damaging to themselves, everyone around them Uh that The show does to some degree, earn this must end in att least one of their deaths and therefore both of their deaths because like in many ways, one of them cannot exist without the other R? They like they both need each other to exist Yeah. And the physicality in this show and Go with me on this. I promise that this makes sense It operates very similarly to musicals, where in a musical, when the emotions get so high, you have to bust out into song and dance because that's the way to express what's going on. That's how physicality is used in this show. When the emotions get so high, it has nowhere else to go. It manifests in their bodies and they go after each other fists, not with words because they don't know how to explain what's going on in their heads and verbalize it, they can only do it with their bodies. And they are sharing their bodies with each other through this moment. And it's It's very hard to watch. It's hard to watch that happen because whenever they fight, whenever they get physical, that is when they are communicating the least. That is when they are misunderstanding each other the most because don't have any other way to communicate than beating the crap out of each other. and that's not helpful. And Nile is also a really bad fighter. He's a bad communicator and he's a bad fighter. So like there's no way that he's going to be able to withstand this. and it feels like this was the inevitability. I genuinely think that once They enter that barn And Ruben closes the door Nil knows how this is ending I genuinely think he knows how this is ending This ad is sponsored by ZockDoc. Hi, It's Danny Pellegrino from Everything Iconic. Have you been putting off that annual doctor's appointment because you don't w to make the call? Or maybe you've been meaning to find a new dentist, but you have no idea where to start? I find that's especially true when you move. It's hard to find your people. I've been there, which is why I use ZockDoc Now as a busy podcast or parent and someone who's always juggling a million things, I love anything that makes life easier. And ZockDoc lets you search and compare local in network doctors with over two hundred fifty thousand providers across more than two hundred specialties. You can read reviews from real patients, find a provider who feels like the right fit, see actual appointment openings, and book instantly I recently had a last minen and health issue pop up and I needed to see someone fast and instead of calling around or sitting on hold, I found a doctor on ZakDoc and booked an appointment in just a few minutes. It made the whole process so much less stressful Now taking care of your health just got easier. download the Zach dooc Today, that's Zak Doc ZOC DOC and book that appointment on your to do list Introducing the total Solutions advantage only from Comcast Business. It's the largest fastest fiber powered network for small business, gig speeds with equipment and security included and a five year price lock. No one does business like comcast business Switch today? Get started for sixty dollars a month for twelve months when you add an advanced solution to a qualifying internet package. Limited time offer. restestrictions apply. new customers only. requires three hundred megab per second interternet, securityedge and additionalifing service, onene year agreement, paperless billing and autoay bank account required. tax and fees extra Yeah, the show did set up that Ruben was going to teach now how to box in earlier episodes. I get maybe they ran out of money they didn't shoot those scenes because I thought there would be more of an even fight or something like that, but it seems pretty one sided to me I will say that There is something really sad and tragic about See I mean, there's many sady tragic things about the whole show, but I feel like I'm reflecting on why it is Ruben felt the need to Kill Nil, right? Like what what was it? and I, you know The confonession that N makes that Bart is his child. is a line that has been crossed that cannot be uncrossed And in many ways, Ruben is a prisoner of Oh. onceptions of masculinia. I thinkotally I'm putting out there, right? I'm putting it out there that's kind ofte alignment with you on that.. That he believes like a man should behave in a certain way, should be able to provide certain things, should be able to impregnate his wife and so on And that He and Nile are both in different ways prisoners of or subject to the forces of the sexual Mres of their time and that it has shaped them into these creatures that have this inevitable traragic fate Uh, that that feels just really sad and upsetting, you know? I don't know. like I agree with you that. Communication would have helped solve a lot of these people's problems would have solved a lot of Nil's problems. I don't know if it would have solved a lot of Ruben' though. You know what I mean? Yeah I don't think Ruben has the emotional maturity for all of the reasons that you just said. Like he is they are both prisoners of masculinity and patriarchal systems, but in very different ways.. And the fact that Nile is somebody that Ruben views as weaker and views as the submissive in their relationship, The fact that he is able to impregnate his wife when he can't. Like it's not It's not just that his wife cheated. It's not just that the child isn't his. It's specifically that it's Nyil's. Like I think he would have had a bad time if it would have been, you know, Benji, the Dance guy, but I think he would have been able to get past that. He cannot get past it when it's Nil because that betrayal is just it's so severe, it's so much. And the fact that he knows that as, you know, Nil is a gay man, it's not like This betrayal is so personal, it's so targeted and it is a reflection of him still being incapable of accepting the truth about himself. I've been very public about this before and I have no problem. But before I was you know fully out as a lesbian, I absolutely was trying to convince myself that I was not a lesbian by sleeping with men that I did not like. And I, you know, emotionally hurt people in that selfish path of self discovery. not to this extent, thank God Like this is a very common thing that people who don't want to face the truth about themselves do. And I'm very grateful that in that process I never got pregnant. But that's what we're seeing Nil do. And also it's so clearly an intentionality to try to hurt Rupid. Like it's and it's permanent. You can't take this back. There is a human being that now exists because of this mral Yeah U so it's interesting to see how they're both kind of shaped in different ways and how they're both prisoners in different ways of kind of the prevailing attitudes about masculinity at the time Um I am curious BJ, as we're getting close to the end here, like are there any other subplots or moments from the show that particularly stick out to you as being very revealing or that are thematically interesting Ooh, I really love the relationship that we see between Nil's mother and to a lesser extent Ruben's mother and the fact that I think people struggle sometimes to understand intersectionality, especially within the queer community, because Qeer people not only come to their identity and therefore, the experiences they have with being marginalized at different time periods, depending on when you come out, but also factors like race and gender and gender expression really paint how that marginalization impacts you. And so these are young boys, especially Nile who recognizes that he's gay, Ruben has never established what he is. I think that Rubin is probably somewhere on like the bisexual spectrum. He's definitely not fully straight, but he would never let anyone else Uh know that So that's something going on with him as well. But their mothers are very clearly Sapphic in some way. we don't ever get like a outlined identity marker, but they're together, they are a couple. And the way that they exist in the world is very differently than the way that these boys will because That is just the reality of how queerness was viewed in the eighties, even now. Men do have an additional layer of marginalization attached to them when they are queer. And we even see the way that Nil's mom perpetuates some of that like homophobia on top of him and how he's you know, absorb that. And so I really like seeing that intersection of like, yeah, sometimes Sometimes homophobia exists within the community. Sometimes this happens and it's He's play Richard Gatt is playing in a lot of territories here that we really don't want to talk about, that we really don't like to acknowledge because it is uncomfortable and because it can so easily be weaponized by bad faith actors and the fact that the show is willing to go there, I really commend him for Can you clarify that a little bit? What do you mean that? Like what are the areas that we really don't want to talk about unless you actually genuinely don't want to? Oh no. I mean, the fact that there are, you know, one, I think a lot of people don't like to actually talk about self aiding gay people and the way that gay people will internalize their own, you know, internalize homophobia and make it everybody else's problem. People don't want to talk about that. They don't want to talk about the fact that there is communal infighting in the fact that like there are There are realms of society that view lesbianism as being acceptable, but because there's an opportunity for fetishization that exists there by men by the patriarchy, therefore it is more socially permissible for women to be in relationships than it is for men to be in relationships. We don't like to talk about that ever. Yeah, it's interesting that that the whole struggle of the season is Nil's ability to accept his own homosexuality. Whereas his mom are there barely seems to be any struggle at all there, right? Like there is some struggle in their relationship, but it doesn't seem like his mom is particularly tortured about her own sexual identity. We see a little bit of how it's affected people around them when we see, I think, one of their parents, one of their dad's, right in the early episodes But in general, it's like it's not it's barely even commented on them. You know what I mean? It's it's just like, oh, that'scept that's just part of their life. Ruben accepts it as part of his life. like Nile accepts this for. The moms will accept it. So It's interesting how different there journey with homosexuality seems to be then Nil's. Oh yeah. And I think that especially when they're in like, you know university There's even a couple comments where it's like, but aren't your mom's gay. And you even see Nil kind of have this like panic he's like, but it's different when it's men. and then you can watch other people try to process that where they're like, what compartmentalizing are you doing in your head right now? But in this time period, he is right. He is right I mean he's using as an excuse Totally. But also he is to some degree correct. Yes, there is a kernel of truth here. We're talking about somebody coming of age during the AIDS crisis. like, yeah, that's gonna mess your brain up and it's his responsibility to work through that. you know, that doesn't give him a pass for the everything he does in the rest of the series, but it is important historical context that yeah, it is different And I think that what's very interesting is that there are even ways where you can kind of see the pendulum is starting to swing in our current era where because we're entering this time period right now in the twenty twenties where like Manosphere stuff and patriarchal stuff is getting so much stronger again, there's this big push for like you return to traditional values and tradwife stuff that now like lesbians are getting really bad like social stuff for decentering men. Like that is now becoming like the ultimate punishment. so much so that there are even like gay mananosphere grifters, which is crazy to me, But like that's it's it's interesting and it's so interesting to watch this show play out in our current time period You were in the middle of this great run where you were listing things that U things that the show brings up that we don'tcessarily like to talk about. Was there anything else in theist? I'm sorry interrupted but I just want to want it to add on to that point you're making I think that that's kind of heart the heart of it. but there is something that Richard Gad said in an interview that I have not been able to stop thinking about where he says, in order to show something as toxic, you also have to show that it was at one point intoxicating That is just ooed on my brain now because it completely reshapes the way that I interpret art when they're analyzing thingses of toxicity because he's so right. And I think the show does explain that pretty well