Contextual Omissions and Final Thoughts

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Better Hel, Thraapy happens in a space that's yours Visit betteretterhlp. com slash random podcast for ten percent off your first month of online therapy This is Mr. Jackson's main area. Right now, searching Michael Jackson's Neverland ranch. This is part of an ongoing investigation He's the most famous man in the world being accused of the most heinous crime in the world. A arrest warrant for mis. Jackson has been issued on multiple counts childild molestation. el Jackson's trial has finally begun. I walked into what looked like a circus. We believed he was a criminal and he was able to get away with that because of his fame and celebrity Hello everyone and welcome to a decoding TV bonus episode Today we'll be discussing Michael Jackson, the verdict a new documentary on Netflix. And joining me, David Jen for this conversation, we are so pleased to have a couple special guests today. Christi Boschman entertains and enlightens millions of viewers each week as at that documentary girl on TikTok, Instagram, and other social channels where she talks about documentaries that are out in the world Christie, welcome back to the podcast. Thank you. I'm so happy to be back here. So happy to have you. Joining us also. Alex Byron is a comedian and co host of Christie on the podcast Bonus features get it wherever you get your podcast. Alex, wecome to dececoding TV. Thank you so much, Dave. Love the film cast and really happy to be here And decoding TV. and decoding. Do it with people? I just That was the first like podcast I ever listened to back in the day. Oh, that's so nice. It's been cool being your social media friend, for sure. Absolutely, absolutely. Well, the verdict is a three part docu series by director Nick Green, and according to the plot summ Told by key players who were inside the courtroom, this comprehensive documentary dissects the trial of Michael Jackson and his complex legacy end I't know if you guys are aware Michael Jackson A little bit in the news, he's recently had a biopic based off of his life or parts of it that made, I think around nine hundred million dollars. and people are rediscovering their love of M fandom for Michael Jackson. So on the on the steps of that comes this docentary Michel Jackson the verdict which complicates the picture a little bit Let's start by talking about our overall thoughts on this documentary What did you think of Michael Jackson The verdict? Christie Boshman, let's start with you I was really looking forward to this documentary because as we know, the biopC doesn't touch on any of the allegations for reasons we'll get into Um to be honest, I was a little underwhelmed and I think it's because This case is so complex. There are so many different elements and not just the two thousand five trial, but there' so many other avenues and things to go down and it's such a touchy subject. You have to it's like walking on eggshells constantly if anybody wants to discuss this. So I think they had to be really careful about the things that they said And I think they had to be selective about the things that they talked about. But that being said, overall, I thought it was like a decently done Docu series. Byron, what do you think of Michael Jackson the verdict overall Well, I had Really excited expectations for sure and I have a lot of thoughts, but you know I feel like this is one of those DocU series that actually would have benefited from being a E, ten part Right. hugely immersive. I mean, we see a lot of Doccus series that are a little Overlong these days. I mean, that's like After the Netflix Docy Series thing became popular, there's been a lot of projects that definitely could have been a short film, a short documentary and there four or five parts this one unfortunately was quite brisk. It was kind of the greatest hits the defense and the prosecution And I would have liked it to be more fleshed out And I think that honestly on both sides There is a little bit of incompleteness or selective information that unfortunately left me a little disappointed Interesting, interesting. Well, I will just say as somebody who ' been observing The Michael Jackson fandom reactivate after all this time, right? It's kind of been dormant a little bit, I would say and reactivate it now that this movie is out and people strenuously kind of arguing on his behalf and so on. that I'm very grateful for this document because Yeah It complexifies the picture a great deal about Michael Jackson. Now we should say that the Antoine Fuqua movie Michael I believe ends Before a lot of the most controversial elements of his life occurred Uh, like in terms of the timeline. And so into that Shall we say, opening into that gap steps this documentary to fill in some of that picture of what happened to the rest of Michael Jacks's life I would agree with you that this does not even come close to being an expansive look Michael Dackson's career or his place in popular culture or anything like that. It's just has a very narrow scope, which is it's called The verdict. So it's really about like What was it like to be, you know, to get to that verdict? What are some of the things that led to that verdict And in that regard, I think it's very very effective h and I appreciate that like We have this to kind of balance out is from what I can tell, a much more sanitized version of Michael Jackson's life that is otherwise also in the popular culture One of the things I appreciated about Michael Jackson the verdict is that they actually did something kind of unconventional, which is They have representatives from both sides. of the trial, right? Very often it's like heavily weighted towards one side. I find you're like on the prosecutor side or whatever or you're on the defense side. But this actually had representatives for both. It didn't have any Witnesses Like any people that were actually the alleged victims of Michael Jackson in this case. But it did have both sides. Christy, you watch a lot of documentaries and you talk about them at that documentary girl on social media. Like what did you think of this documentary's approach? when it came to showing both sides or how it represented the trial I always appreciate when a documentary shows both sides. And I think it was smart on their part because if this was a one sided documentary it would have just proved everybody right who is like Uh It's a hit piece, you know? And I don't think it was a hit piece at all. I think it was very truthful in the things that it was presenting I do get the sense though that they did that because of that reason. if that makes sense. Like it it wasn't Oh, let's show both sides so that the audience can come to their own conclusion. You can tell how the filmmakers feel about the situation. And I think they did it to kind of cover their asses a little bit U because there has been so much pushback this documentary akes sense. Well, let's talk about that, Christy. So like You get exposed to a lot of people's feedback about the documentaries that you talk about. And so like, tell us about what the tone is out there. Tell us about what it is people are saying out there right nowike there's people listening to this podcast. They're not on the front lines like you you know, talking about like culture like this So what are people saying? what is the predominant sentiment that you're seeing right now? Well, I did a poll on my channel, and it was like, how do people feel about this? Do they think that Michael Jackson was guilty of these things? And It was fifty fifty. And I think what is happening is that the fifty percent who believe that he's innocent passionately believing that he's innocent. And they are willing to fight tooth and nail to defend him and the people who believe he's guilty They don't care. They're like, he's dead Let it go. And so you have this huge unbalance of people's opinions about this case and it's, I think because the side that believe he's innocent are so loud People believe that everybody thinks he's innocent and that's just simply untrue. I've had so many people message me being like This is how I feel about it and I'm so glad that you're speaking up and say and like defending survivors and I'm just afraid to talk about it. I think people are genuinely afraid to say that they believe he was guilty of these things. I was afraid to say that I didn't want to cover leaving Neverland for years, for years. I wasn't going to talk about it. I didn't want to talk about this case at all because They're vicious. It is truly, truly a vicious. They will send you death threats. they will like say horrible things about you and your life. It's just like, do I want to dip my toes into this Right. Yeah, yeah. I'm sorry you've had to go through that. That sounds horrible. Alex, I think you've posted about this as well on your social channels that have millions of followers. what has been your experience of the reaction to bothoth this documentary and to the Michael Jackson phenomenon in general It's been insane. I mean, I wanted to kind of add to what I said before. I agree with everything you said. by normal standards The verdict was a really good documentary It did actually a great job of going to different sides and expanding on things. Really good entertaining informative three part docu series, but for For the Michael Jackson stuff, the rules are different. You know, the standard and the discussion around it whether it's leaving Neverland or Square one or the verdict U peopleople have a certain frenzy and an emotional level that's just different than any other topic I've ever seen. And certainly for anything I've ever covered on my social media, any topic that I've joked about. anything that I' probably And you about a huge variety of subjects. And you're saying this is the one that has been the most intense reaction. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, let me put it this way. There was this one time where another creator lied I had the video of it luckily so I could prove they were lying. and they eventually took the video down. But it was a pretty popular creator And he said that I'd threaten to kill him and The blowback I got from that, the controversy was nothing compared to simply posting a video where I not even necessarily say Michael Jackson was guilty, just offer a a nuanced impress nuanced take on it. I will get death threats from that. I will get Really really scary. I mean, like, I am scared. I'll admit it. It's it's scary to be in a position where you go, there's no upside to this because it's not like if you're let's say a Democrat streamer who likes to, you know, supports the Democratic party and likes to talk about how You don't like Donald Trump, right? There's a lot of streamers like that. Well, you're going to piss a lot of people off, of course, but you have a built in fifty percent of the country or whatever percent, a large amount of people that are going to rally behind you This feels like that, but without the support So there is there's only the hate and the other side and If you say something nuanced, they consider that A hit piece and That's what I think happened with the documentary too. The documentary is actually fairly evenven I would say. I mean, they don't even even handed I would say. like it does not I don't think let's talk a little bit about that. First of all, again, sorry that you guys have had to go through that. That sounds awful U But the documentary itself I think is fairly even handed. Like the documentary in my opinion is not definitive about his guilt, right? It doesn't No one no one is put in a position of omniscience saying like, but he actually was guilty XY Z, right? Like no one says anything like that I think what what I think the documentor does a great job of is illustrating the power imbalance when it comes to the situation of this trial Illustrating How enormously difficult it is to convict someomeone of this level of celebrity of any crime. let alone one that is the sensitive Um And just at the end of the day, it is like Some kids or some kid. against this entire System Oh Michael Jackson's fame, all the people that rely on Michael Jackson for a living all the people that need Michael Jackson support to have jobs, like there is There are a lot of people invested in and also by the way, fans who literally quit their jobs so they could go support Michael Jackson the trial in person Uh there's all these people like invested in making sure Michael Jackson is found not guilty And on the other side H same level of intensity and institutional power, just does not exist. Oh What did you think of how the documentary illustrated this dynamic, Christie? Any any thoughts on How this documenter did it versus how other documenters did it or different this specific case was. I think it did a pretty honest job of showcasing this power dynamic. But the problem is, like Alex said, it's This topic can't be handled like any other topic. and People will would say it was about a different celebrity. and it was all the same situations and people watch this documentary but just replaceed Michael Jackson with somebody else people will get it. I think people will go Oh, there's an insane power dynamic here how can you try a celebrity with a jury Who's the most famous man in the world? How can that jury pool not be tainted? Um, and then seeing that these kids are kids who come from in most cases broken homes or lower income families or they've been through somethingomet horrible like in Gavin's case cancer. or that the father is absent I think if it were any other celebrity, somebody would watch this documentary and they would see clearly what it is. that it's Michael Jackson peopleeople watch it and they go Well yeah, he was a child at heart. All these things make sense. They make up Excuses for they're seen and presented with. So it's really, really difficult because if you're if you're not biased towards Michael Jackson, you can watch it and see it for what it is, but unfortunately, that's just not the case for most people. It's smart to always have a few financial goals, and a really smart one you can set, earning cash back on what you buy every day. And with Discover, you can this, Discover automatically matches all the cash back you've earned at the end of your first year. Seriously, all of it, and we trust you to make smart decisions. After all, you listen to this show. See terms at discover dot com slash credit card. This episode is sponsored by ZockDoc. Have you been putting off a doctor's appointment or need a dentist and you don't know where to start definitely been there and that's why we use ZockDoc Actually over the holidays, Michael had a dental emergency and seemingly every office was closed, but we hopped on to ZockDoc, found an in network dentist, had great reviews, saw real time appointments available, which was key. It was on New Year's Day, and booked an appointment in just minutes. It took so much of the stress out of the already stressful situation ZockDog makes it easy to search and compare over two hundred fifty thousand local in network providers across more than two hundred specialties. so you can find the right doctor or dentist and book instantly Taking care of your health just got easier, download the ZockDoc app today and book that appointment on your to do list. That's ZOC DOC Zakda Well, we have to also acknowledge that Michael Jackson was one of the greatest musicians and ent entertainers that ever lived, right? one hundred percent. That is undoubtable. one of the most hugely influential artists of all time There is a very upsetting scene that happens in the documentary where they show the Martin I think they show the Martin Bashir documentary. about Michael Jackson, which is very damning And partarts of that documentary involve Michael Jackson rehearsing music and people in the courtroom are like bopping along to the music, right? Like people in the jury are like swaying along to the music and it's like That's because he was an incredibly talented musician. and he made some of the greatest songs of all time. You know, one thing that's happened is In the process of doing this in a weird way Thinking about Michael more in doing research and being frustrated with . Hate comments I get It's actually made me appreciate how good his music is even more because I go through a day where I'm spending my day, you know The horde. of rabid Michael Jackson misinformation And it puts a lot of hate in myart. I by the end of the day, I'm like, I really hate the Michael Jackson estate, you know, And I'm like, what am I doing this, this is one of the worst. And then I I go play one of his songs and within like ten seconds I'm like, this I'm so happy right now. The dopamine is just flooding my brain from the harmonies and the rhythm, and it really, I mean, his music is like a drug. it's incredible music, for sure. Right.. And I think But, you know, I think there is this dynamic that like it is so good that it reaches into your to your person and you feel like deep connected to it and such that when somebody says U Michael Jackson was an alleged child molester Right? Like It is possible that Michael Jackson molested children Like when you say when you say that The brain cannot most people cannot compute that. They cannot They cannot accept both truths at once. It's really hard for them. and you've experiences, right? Gohead.es. Yeahah. Yeah, yeah. And like Alex and I were saying to each other, because we watched the Living withith Michael Jackson Martin Bashir documentary a few days before this one came out because we wanted to like be up to date on it. and it's not I wouldn't call it a hit piece to be honest, because it made me go and buy his record. I was like Damn. like he's so talented. likeike there's a scene where he's like beat boxing the beat to I think it's beat it and it's just like, holy. This guy' insanely talented. And I was saying to Alex, I don't think there's any other person in the world where I will one minute be like This guy molested children and then for the rest of the day, I'll have thrillers stuck in my head and I'll be walking around the yard being like you know, like When else does that happen Never It's unprecedented to have this confluence of events I think also You know, going back to the documentary Whether or not you believe the allegations Oh I think that what is very clear what's very sad is this portrait of Michael Jackon that emerges from this documentary that he became seemingly very, very isolated towards the end of his life And it just is, u You know what it reminds me of you guys u . I' read this article at the Verge about Justin Bieber once You guys know Justin Bieber, right? And you guys remember Comedy Central did the roast of Justin Bieber You guys remember that? I don't if you guys watched that, but yeah yeah. there was I think it was the Virds that wrote about it,ough was basically like Justin Bieber doesn't have any friends. becausecause basically The roast of Justin Bieber is When you the idea is you invite people who are like people who haveve known you for like twenty years, who are like your most beloved friends And' like Justin Bieber had none of those people at his roast. It was like all like celebrities or people that like Justin Bieber liked Um, but they weren't like his actual friends and it's like Wh're Justin Bieber's friends? And I think there's something about Being like a mega star that is Really isolating because in general, most of the people you interact with want something from you, right? they're trying to extract something from you. And then so yourour world becomes very the world and the number of people you trust becomes very small That was one thing that really did give me some sympathy coming out and you get Gimpses of it in the Michael movie as well too from what I understand is like he becomes very isolated over time and that was was genuinely said to me. Alex, I'm curious like if you got any sense of Michael Jackson was like at this era of his life. Like, did you do you get any of what I was talking about? didid that come across to you or am I just reaching for stuff Well, like I said, his music and his aura has an effect on me For sure I try to I try to be careful because a lot of that stuff Yeah it' sad and he certainly does look uniquely isolated in some ways There's also The idea that perhaps it could have been manipulative. I mean, there's that day where he kind of has a depressive episode, right? And it happens to be the day that the child is going on the stand. so he pulls up in his pajamas and he's very sad and it was quite effective in kind of pulling the focus away from the cross examination and further destabilizing the confidence of the witness. So You know, um Yeah, there's a lot of open questions about whether whether Michael Jackson used even The image of himself as like a frail, lonely star to like manipulate the media for his own ends. That's a question that's raised by the doctor Yeah, it's a great one , it's interesting because I've listened to other podcasts with People that are more.'s a guy named Charles Thompson, and he's a journalist. that he was very active during the trial, like that period of time as a journalist and he noticed that the media was lying a lot and being very one sided towards Wacko Jacko Right? And that's kind of hit it was biased against Y. And that's certainly true that there was there was a time when the media certainly seem to want Michael Jackson to be guilty and was not super concerned with the facts they were concerned with articles and headlines and the pendulum had kind of swung pretty hard in that direction And that was his that was his entry, Charles Thompson, who's in the Square one documentary into the arena So he came from it where it's like, okay, I'm going to push back against that and I'm going to show the other side of it, which which makes sense. So people like that that do that do podcasts. I listen to a lot of them. and what I always find is No matter what side, if people are having an honest conversation about Michael Jackson or about one of these documentaries, they always say two things, whether it's like you, Christie and I or Charles Thompson and a guest on his podcast. at some point in the documentary always do minutes of talking about how amazing his music is and they all just go like on, this song's great and this moment is great. Like it could be Either side has that moment Also Both sides have a moment where they have to just mention, I think, because it's such like a visceral like everyone agrees on this. They go like, It was really bad that he continued sleeping with boys after settling for twenty million. Like they even even the people in the ear supporters, they have to add like quickly they'll get out of it quickly and start doing the doubt casting and the spin and the there was a history of scamming with the They have to go Well, I can excuse sleeping with boys before the Jordan Chandler trial, But after that, there is no excuse for it at all. So it's just like there's these these points of agreement The music was great and that decision was catastrophic Well, I mean, I think you bring up a great point, which is like even the facts that are confirmed facts that like everyone knows that Michael Jackson himself admits are really troubling, right? Like even let's say he didn't he wasn't actually guilty of the crimes. Even the stuff that is already out there that is true that everyone agrees on him sleeping with children in his bed, right? Like That is not behavior I think we would accept of a celebrity today, right? And it is strange that there was a time when this guy was so famous that people thought it was okay Um, The other thing I wanted to comment on just mention and then Christie, I'm curious your thoughts on this, right? is felt like Everything went wrong for this prosecution in this trial U they Martin Bashir, you think, oh, he's going to be a great U greatreat witness. Nope, doesn't do well. We They had one witness basically turn hostile on them on the stand Michael Jackson's ex wife, I believe Uh, and then McCauly Colkin comes in. testifying on Michael Jackson's behalf Uh And so it really feels like this is a case that, oh, wow the facts seem really aligned with the prosecution And then it just completely self destructs. on the witness stand over the course of the trial. Christy just curious What your thoughts were about the trial itself and how it unfololded Well, I think a lot of people look at this trial and they go proven innocent. He's innocent, which is not the case. It's a criminal trial. So the way that criminal trials work is they have to be beyond a reasonable doubt. So if the The jury is like, there's doubts here. They have to convict him not guilty Um And so I mean, you guys know how I feel about this And I watch this trial play out and the defense is so good. I go, even though I believe that there's a ninety percent chance that Michael's guilty of this, I would have had to find him not guilty. becausecause the defense was so good. Yeah me too They put reasonable doubt all over I gott to fix Hey estate. They're shutting us down They put reasonable doubt all over this case There's you can't you can't deny it. They were good. He was really, really, really good at his job. And I mean we see that a lot in cases with high profile celebrities, they can hire the best lawyers and they know what to say to to do that. That's how the defense works. and It's such a shame. It's Because I think the prosecution really blew it Yeah they overreached, right? they they went for conspiracy. Yeah, they went for conspiracy as well. apparently that was guaranteed flop. And they didn't use Vincent Amond's Nudist magazine evidence which he submitted because he was a co conspirator So it was a conflict of interest. It was really a clinic by the defeense and just a historical. failed by prosecutors Yeah, ye. um, They essentially made the victims families out to be money grubbing opportunists, really is what the defense did and and that resonated with a lot of people. Alex, I know one of the things that you and I both really Uh got inflamed by was the depiction of the jurors in this case. They actually got the jurors, right? interviewed the jurors. One of them has a significant role in this documentary U and I don't think she comes off very well. Alex, what do you think It wouldn't be a Netflix court documentary if you didn't scream at a juror at one point. in it, right? But I think she's going to get a lot of support. unlike the like the P Diddy one, I'm sure she just earned a lot of gift baskets from Yeah, I try to be compassionate because you know, they the jury's job is to hear prosecution and the defense and People always say do your research, but it takes a long time to listen to the transcript of the people versus Michael Jackson, so I would never expect somebody to do that. But if anyone's interested, I really recommend listening to the opening statement of prosecution and the defense because they say a lot of the time is won or lost just in the opening statements as long as they can deliver on on they promise and Yeah, it was kind of over with the opening statements. I mean, the other side cast this thing of like conspiracy, imprisoning the family and all this. And the defense just had to poke a hole in that And this has been a big deal for the Michael's innocent crowd as they go The parents are highly dubious. The dad of Jordan Chandler was corrupt, the mother of Gavin had issues and there's There's also a narrative where you could just say Michael targeted families that you know, had absent parents with misguided motives and It was easier to manipulate them. But of course, in the People Vversus Michael Jackson prosecution didn't do that. They They needed the jury to trust the family, the whole family in order for their argument to work. that was Basically their downfall, I would say amongst other bad luck that you alluded to Yeah, ye Uh So yeah, at the end of the day, I feel like this documentary really does provide some credibility to the allegations against him. and also by the way As we all know, this trial was only a small subset of the number of allegations against Michael Jackson, right? Like this was not the totality of all the things that he had been accused of U And I do just think it's good to have that context. I'm curious, Christy, are there any other moments from the documentary that stuck out to you or that you think are worth highlighting U especially as somebody who watched a lot of these, like anything that was notable about this one I think it's really important to highlight this really disappointing part in the documentary where they showcase clip from living with Michael Jackson. And it's Gavin sitting next to Michael and he says Michael said, if you love me, you'll sleep in the bed. And unfortunately, that clip is taken out of context. And the second Alex and I saw it, we were like Oh no. And then the documentary after its release, immediately it was posted all over the internet in that original clip He says If you love me, you'll sleep in my bed and I'll go sleep somewhere else And I think that because the documentary took that out of context, it allows people to cast doubt everything else that's in the documentary And it's ye it's such a shame. you have to be so, so, so careful with the things that you're saying in this case because anything can be used against you or discredit you. It's really unfortunate that that happened It is a bizarre decision by the director, I think, to I have to believe The director has not experienced what you two have experienced in terms of Michael Jackson, but I have to believe they have some knowledge their work here is going to be scrutinized And they chose to clip it in such a way that it was maximally sensationalist as opposed to something that represented the full context. And I think it horrible decision. Yeah, it's unfortunate because it will give ammunition to the people that are obviously Michael Jackson supporters and believe in his innocence. Yes, because they go, if you're willing to take this out of context and lie about this What else in this documentary have you taken out of context Absolutely, abbsolutely. So terrible decision, baffling decision And I hope that a lesson is being learned from the reaction to the decision It's smart to always have a few financial goals, and a really smart one you can set, earning cash back on what you buy every day. And with Discover, you can this Discover automatically matches all the cashback you've earned at the end of your first year. Seriously, all of it, and we trust you to make smart decisions. After all, you listen to this show. See terms at discover dot com slash credit card. This episode is sponsored by ZockDoc. Have you been putting off a doctor's appointment or need a dentist and you don't know where to start deffinitely been there and that's why we use ZockDoc Actually over the holidays, Michael had a dental emergency and seemingly every office was closed, but we hopped on to ZockDoc, found an in network dentist, had great reviews, saw real time appointments available, which was key. It was on New Year's Day, and booked an appointment in just minutes. It took so much of the stress out of the already stressful situation ZockDog makes it easy to search and compare over two hundred fifty thousand local in network providers across more than two hundred specialties. so you can find the right doctor or dentist and book instantly Taking care of your health just got easier, download the ZockDoc app today and book that appointment on your to do list. That's ZOC DOC ZockDoc Alex, any thoughts, any thoughts on Michael Jackson, the verdict, anyy moments or any themes from the movie you want to highlight I totally agree with Christie and This is Going back to leaving Neverland I thought that was such a compelling documentary and I definitely lean towards believing those victims for sure. but we're seeing the same thing that happened with that documentary where if it was any other story you know getting a couple little things wrong or clipping something to just your side a bit in the overall story. L that one, for instance, I mean, Michael contradicts himself later in that same documentary living with Michael Jackson and says I slept with all of them So you could easily make the argument like, well, we just cut it down because he kind of said that himself later. but The standard for what you have to do and it's Michael Jackson is so different in leaving Neverland There was that entire documentary of brutal eyewitness accounts from two, not one, two victims and They have discounted that documentary and basically blasted it off the internet for U. S. audiences because James Sfe Chuck got one detail wrong with a train. and it turns out there was a train there before the permit anyway. and Wade Robson wanted to do the choreography in a, you know, Michael Jackson show, which actually is consistent with the kind of like conflicting things survivors do. And for any other documentary, that would have been okay, but I do wish that Dan Reid had had like hardcore fact checkers come in check all the dates really been like, okay, what are they going to what are they going to cast doub on? And let's make sure we address that. Like talk about why you don't hide it. talkalk about why you did the choreography, why you still wanted success, why you were conflicted. And yeah, I just wish they hadn't done that clip in the verdict as well. And It's it's really I've never seen anything like that where The rules are so specific T Michael Jackson, it's it's been interesting and kind of scary to see Yeah, when you say the rules, Alex, can you just clarify what you mean by that Yeah, I mean For a normal documentary, if you if you clip something to help Let's even just say the entertainment value or the brevity of the edit of the documentary. Or if in an interview, someone gets a detail slightly wrong, but it still makes sense for a child who was abused to maybe have one warped memory. Normally That wouldn't taint the entire documentary and give people ammunition to say, I don't even need to watch it I've seen enough But with Michael Jackson, it is like that. And I don't know if it's even possible for these documentaries to be perfect enough that people would go, well, check it out, but You know, I wish they would do I wish they did a better job Of course, it's easy for me to say that as a viewer, not as somebody I to put this out there too. Yeah. And I kind of want to hear if you guys have any react to this. First of all, one thing that I think is a little odd is that they don't mention that Wade Robson participated this whole leaving Neverland documentary afteract like that's str That is a strange omission from Michael Jackson, the verdict Uh, so especially since the juror, she's going like I just think they were all after money and oh bless Wade Robson for being so believable on the stand. And you go, comeome on. mayaybe legally they weren't allowed to add that title card Right. Yeah. And it is because of legal maneuvering from the Jackson Eestate That is why leaving Neverland is not available to watch in the United States right now Apparently that will remain true for the next few years if I understand correctly Um Okay, but let me put this out there. As you as you both are talking about, you're stirring up these ideas in my head. And I think I feel it feels to me like We are at a time right now that we're living in That is We are living in a time of historic mistrust of the media. and also historic Dan Culture Identification with celebrities. The celebrity represents me and if you're attacking them, you're attacking me. Like both of those things are at the highest level ever been in my lifetime and max trust in influencers Like if there's a newspaper article, they're obviously lying because the media lies, but a person holding their phone Like with a hair straightener talking about Yeah The Michael Jackson lies. off course they would never lie or be biased. Right. They're believable. So The information environment is that it the worst it's ever been, right? And so It feels like the reaction you're seeing for Michael Jackson's fan is the logical conclusion to all that. Right? It's like uh or the reaction, I should say of Michael Jackson fans to stuff that is critical of Michael Jackson. It's just the logical reaction of all that. Like reject the docum hard hitting documentary about Michael Jackson's alleged crimes. except the story that Michael Jackson was perfect because That way I can feel good about my fandom of Michael Jackson. Like there's, you know, as youve said, there's A lot of upside for me rejecting the truth and a lot of downside to accepting it. Christy, what do you think Yes, I agree with you and I could see how that could be, but at the same time, we're also in this weird point in history where like the Epstein files are happening and all these celebrities are being exposed for hanging out with Epstein and a massive distrust in billionaires and Everybody who like someone's name can just be mentioned in the Epstein files and people will be like ed a file, I want nothing to do with you. But again, the rules are different for Michael Jackson He was a billionaire did have immense power in the music industry. He could do whatever he wanted and he is in the Epstein files So But people still go, it's just like the rules are different. They're different for him And I don't I don't I don't quite know why. I wish I did.