Final Reflections and Desert Island Choices

Hello, I'm Lauren Verne and this is the Desert Island Discks podcast from BBC Radio four. Every week I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book, and luxury that they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. For rights reasons, the music's shorter than on the original broadcast, but you can find a version with longer music tracks on BBC sounds. Listeners will also get access to episodes twenty eight days earlier than everyone else. I hope you enjoy listening My castaway this week is the journalist Gary O'Donahghue. He's the chief North America correspondent for BBC News. Last year, his coverage of the assassination attempt on Donald Trump, conducted live as the incident unfolded, won the Royal Television Society Breaking News Award His interview with an eyewitness, which was rebroadcast by every major news network, was watched by more than three hundred million people on social media and nominated for an Emmy. Viewers were impressed by his journalistic skills and by the fact that he was covering an event he could not actually see. Gary is blind In fact, he's the first disabled person to be posted as a BBC foreign correspondent During his career, he' reported on mass shootings, filed stories from the Macedonian border during the Kosovo conflict, covered the Iraq War, and chronicled seven British general elections was born in London, where his dad worked as a black cab driver When Gary lost his sight aged eight, support was limited, but his parents were determined that he would succeed They got him a place at a boarding school for blind children, and he went on to study philosophy and modern languages at Oxford He spent a year at the Sorbonne in Paris, where he took his first steps into journalism, filing pieces for radio fours in touch He says, Being blind is absolutely and undeniably a part of who I am But it's not all of me Gary Dongh, weelcome to Desert Island Diss. Thank you for having me. Well Gary, you're a very busy man, so I'm glad that you've got time to see us. You have, let's say, a hectic journalistic beat. We're speaking in April, and I think plenty of listeners at home will be struggling to keep up with American politics right now. How are you finding it Well, I share their frustration because we struggle, I struggle day to day to keep up The pace of what is unfolding in the U.S and around the world is mind boggling and mind blowing And our job, my job to try and interpret that and make sense of that and sort of impose some kind of rationality or structure on it is a day to day challenge. It's hugely hard all the rules in politics have changed in the last few years. The politically impossible has become possible. All sorts of things have been turned on their head And we're all day by day struggling to try and keep up. And the personalities, I mean, we have such an unpredictable president right now We do, and he has rewritten the rules of politics. He has the ability to you know shock day by day and does so. And because he's the most powerful man in the world, we have to report that. and And that upsets a lot of people But he is the most powerful man in the world. He has been elected. so we have to sort of respect that mandate evenven if it's hard at times to understand what he's trying to achieve And I'm one of those people that believes that if you don't know, if you're not sure, then say so. You know I've been on air and said, I don't know. I'm not sure. I don't really understand this And I think audiences do appreciate that. What I'm trying to do the whole time when I'm broadcasting or writing You know, I'm trying to give them Not just an analysis or the news or whatever, I'm trying to give them a bit of me because that's how you get them to trust you if they feel they know you. talk about journalism is a very good fit for blind people. Tell me a bit more about that why One of the things you have to do as someone who can't see or who's blind is right from a very early age actually, you have to Learn to listen you sort of have to learn to understand other people's reactions because you know, they react differently to you as a disabled person and you learn to put yourself inside their head a bit and know when that sort of thing' going on And so I think that means you're outside yourself, you know quite a lot of the time. And there's also, you know in maybe slightly more stressful circumstances when people might necessarily want you around, It can be harder to you shut the door in the face of a blind blke who's a reporter. So if you door step in someone, you're at an advantage. Maybe Now, it's not just journalism that we're talking about today, Gary, you're of course sharing your music with us. Tell us about your first disc today Well, I'm pretty sure this was the first single I' ever bought But I think when I started listening to music or becoming aware of it as sort of six, seven, eight I didn't really like what was around very much. I kind of hated disco and Although ironically there is a disco track in one of the world It's a broad mix today going. There are reasons. There are reasons. But you know suddenly there was this kind of new music around, well punk, basically, and a new wave. and this came along and I brought the singal and I remember taking it to school and forcing one of the teachers to play it on the classroom. Was it your French teacher? It was my French teacher and I asked her to translate it, but she refused to. I don't know whether she could or couldn't or wouldn't, but she wouldn't translate it. Anyway, so this has a sort of very special sort of place in my memory It's Saaplan Pool Mar by plastic Bir trum machinea would play a sao Funcho Vachine W. I spnd my life and go w. I be my beians I love to What you do Sland boom w. Sland boom m. S line boom w why w Sapan Ponto, pllastic Berttrend. Gary O' Donahghue you were born in North London in nineteen sixty eight and you grew up in Horn Church in Essex, and your parents Connie and Frank both had big passions outside family life Let's talk about your mum first. Before she got married, she taught ballroom dancing, didn't she She did. My mum and dad both left school at fourteen And my mother went to a dancing school Borham dancing school and did loads of all her qualifications and was completely qualified by I think the age of twenty one and used to sort of effectively when the owners were away run this quite well known Boreham dancing school in North London called Morgan's And that's where she met my father because he was one of her pupils. And in fact, that's where one of her sisters also met her husband. Very successful? it's a bit better than speed dating, What did she tell you about meeting your dad then? What kind of impression did he make? He must have been a good dancer too to be honest, she was always quite critical of his dancing. I think I remember her telling me there was a sort of policeman, she slightly fancied a bit more than him, But they ended up together. I think he had an incredible sense of humour, my father. She was always lurking around and I think that captured her heart eventually. And what about your dad? He had been a semi pro footballer In these early yeah, in his sort of teenage years, he was a pretty accomplished footballer and played for various teams around the southeast, I think into his twenties What kind of teams who did he play for? Well he had some trials at some quite big teams like Watford and Chelsea and places like that, but he ended up playing like a non leeague kind of Eastbourne and I think Hastings and Witterour and places like that He was he was a midfielder and he his great talent was that he could kick equally well with both feet, which Many Premier League footballers nowadays can't be. Oh wow. And do you think he could have gone all the way in different circumstances? Who knows And I don't he never showed any resentment or anything. and eventually he became a cab driver But he did used to take me to Topam from when I was very little Mainly because a lot of his mates who were also cab drivers were ticket toouts at spurs at the weekend And so we can get tickets pretty easily and then keep some back for us But the first game he took me to the old White Heart Lane was against the arsenal and we got walloped five and Eil. But he knew the assistant manager who'd happened to be was also a former cab driver, who got us down to the dressing room afterwards. I mean, I think I was probably seven or eight at the time. maybe a little older, but I got to meet some of the players and stuff like that, which it was lovely. One of themat I remember distinctly, one of them patting me on the head and saying, Sorry we lost for your son I mean, your mum and dads sound wonderful. but tell me about their personalities, What kind of people were they U They were very tolerant. They were hard working. My you know, my dad worked nights most of the time. My momum, you know, when she sort of gave up dancing, had her family then sort of spend a lot of time working in bars and shops and things like that And they were incredibly patient. they were great parents. So when your dad was training to become a cabby, he would have done the knowledge. Do you remember that was that before your time? That was before I was born Although funny enough, you know, when I was growing up He would sort of offload some of this knowledge to me So when we were driving around in London going to see my grandparents or whatever He would tell me, you know where we were and which road led to which road. And then you would ask me, you know, test me,, well, how would you go from this place to this place? And so I have this sort of still to this day, I have this knowledge that runs from sort of Camden in the North to the river in the south and then kind of the city in the east, probably as far as Notting Hill in the west where I kind of pretty much know where things are So you have this mental map of mental map were passed on. All right, Gary, let's have some more music. This is your second choice today. Tell me about this disc So I mean, I was born in North London, but you know, I grew up in Essex, you know, until I was sent away to school And quite early on, I think through my elder brother, Stephen I started listening to Ian Jewury, who's sort of quintessential Essex We wrote a song called Biller Ricki Dii. and I remember on the day of the royal wedding in nineteen eighty one, Princess Dyine and Prince Charles. The GLC London Council was putting on this alternative event where Ian Dury was headlining and I begged my parents to go and they wouldn't let me maybe me stay home watch the rooyal wedding instead. But the song I've actually chosen from him is a sort of gentler what I regard as sort of a bit of a poking fun Essex and the kind of ways of Essex and it's clever Trevor. You ain't gotten a call not to think I what I'm fall into thinking I do Whver ain not having one thing no, not another, R another is it anything ever It's not knowing that there ain't nothing showing in e it to the name of Trevor Helever Trevor Ian Jury. So Gary O'Donahghue, tell me a bit more about growing up and specifically your site because you had problems from birth, didn't you? What was the condition that you had called? No one knows. I think there was some sort of speculation that maybe my mother had had German measles or something when she was pregnant, but no one really knows. And eyes they took one of my eyes out when I was a baby, I spent quite a lot of time hospital when I was a baby, which huge burden for my parents. But I could see a bit, you know, I was sort of partially sighted and as I could see out of one eye and I could see enough to ride a bike, but it was pretty unstable. and when I was five, I fell off my bike and detached a retina and I had to have that fixed. And then when I was u In fact, it was a day before my eighth birthday I have a very clear memory of I was at a part school for the party sited day school And I remember walking out into the playground after lunch and I think I was the first one out there And I climbed the climbing frame and I couldn't see the way down And I thought, okay, there's something something's wrong here And they'd bought me I never forget they boughtght me this sort of action manan doll, right? Ironically enough, the six million dollar man with his bi onic care, right? And I'm in the kitchen trying to stare through this little hole in the back of this doll's head, trying to persuade my parents I really can see something still But I went to the hospital and I was there for another few weeks. And eventually the consultant I'd had from birth, famous ophthalmologist called him Greves He sat my mother down and said, Look, it's over. He's not going to be able to see ever again and Heave he said straight away after that, he said, he's not gonna see again And the thing you must do right now is make sure he gets the best education he can possibly get And that's exactly what your mum and dad did That must have been so difficult to have that conversation with your consultant from their perspective. And you said it was just your mum at first, I think. Yeah. there was no support in those days at all My mother told me that at one point when they'd made an artificial eye for me, the nurse couldn't manage to put it in. so she wrapped it in a tissue and said, you try when you get home which you go you go here it is. And later in life my mother actually said to me there was a point in those early years where You know, she considered killing us both U But, you know I was so touched actually that she told me that the courage to tell me that and trusted me enough to tell me that because I kind of I got it, you know, I could understand it made me understand how lonely it must have been for her and my father. And the sense of desperation that she would have had, as you say, with no support around it really unsure what the future held you know, all of that I think I sort of understood that that they were worried for me. And I think, you know, I was obviously must have been a bit anxious because I remember trying to run away from home a couple of times and sort of Where did you go? I was telling I told my mother I was going to her mother's my Nanans. Where did she live? She lived up in Kentish Town and I would apparently pack a bag that contained only three things, which was a pair of underpants, a toothbrush and a toy car. That was the lot And my mother would she'd actually let me go. She'd let me walk up the street and follow me. And you know, when I lost my bottle before the top of the street, she'd be there. Let's take a minute for some music. What are we going to hear Best friend I ever had was a guy called Tim, Tim Gebbles And we first met when I was sent away to school at eight And we went through two schools together, we went through university together. And in our adult life, we talked all the time. We met up all the time. and he knew me better than anyone He was blind too. He was blind too and we talked about everything and he was loyal and honest and then And then he died nine years ago. And he got diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and three months later he was dead. Not a day goes by that Did I miss her in And I don't have them to talk to anymore And this is a track that you've chosen for him in his memory. Yes, this is for him. we were at the same university in different colleges, and he was a big fan of this band. And when I went around sat in his room and drank the Queen's College Sherry, which was actually quite nice, he'd play this. and We would agonize about, you know, all the girls we weren't getting. We would sit and remember sitting and write you know, helping one of the write love letters to the latest crush and things like that. And on you know of his speakers was the Pet shop boys and so I've chosen West End Girls. Petchop Boys and West End Girls. Gary O'Donagghue, after you lost your sight, your parents sent you to a boarding school for blind and partially sighted children in Kent What do you remember about that time I remember the day we went and they took me on a Sunday And I remember on all you know the whole journey telling them didn I wasn't going to do it and they might as well turn around now. I think I felt slightly like I was being punished for losing my sight a bit. I mean, that's obviously not what they were doing. And they were just silent in the front of the car because I knew this was, well I know now, this must have been tearing them apart as well. You know, And I went and this is this sort of big old former manor house in the middle of these sort of huge grounds. And the way up to the dormitories was the old servant staircase up fifty two stone steps How old were you at this point? So I was eight. So it was six months after I'd lost. So It it was only six months after because that's not long is it? Not long for them, notot long for you. No, not long at all. and They you know, my mother said that, you know, she could hear me bawling when my eyes out. she walked down the stairs must have be hugely hard for them. I mean hugely hard. And so you were desperate you' homesick were you? I was really well, I think I was homesick. I think I adapted pretty quick. I mean it was a huge change It was a working class background I'd come from And these schools of blind children in those days you know, they were modelleled on the English public school system. So culturally, just like a complete culture shock as well. Cte culture shock.ell me about that. what kind of thing would you describe it? sort of things like The stories they would read us were all kind of, you know Jennings goes to school And we had houses that we were in, you know and It was quite regimented and I mean, there was still corporal punishment. you know, I got hit at one point And in those days the sort of pastoral care in those sorts of schools was very much secondary to academic stuff. But there were good things about those early years as well. I mean You know, I learned to ski at that school. you know, my parents scraped the money together to allow me go a skiing trip to Austrian I was completely out of the realms of anything. Right. So what was that like then? Because as well you were a weekly boarder, so you're going home at the weekend, like talking about skiing and speaking French, which you ended up being very good at. I mean, how was all of that How did that affect the family dynamics You sort of become a different person and you grow apart a bit I mean, from eleven years old onwards. And was that when you went to Worcester College? That was when I went to the hot house of Worcester College, which was a you know massive grammar school for blind boys. It was sort it was two lives really. I'd come back at the weekend or Okay so they call that code switching now, all eas? Yeah. So you were sort of one person at school then and then of course my accent changed went from kind Essex Eestuary to this place where everyone who come from different parts of the country, and we all sounded the same at the end of the first year. Yeah So did your relationship with Stehven and Andrew, your brothers change I think so. I mean, I think you know they probably suffered quite a lot from the amount of time my parents had to spend looking after me when I was having all my sight problems and spending loads of time in hospital And certainly when went when I went to school, I really didn't see them very much. And so, you know, we've obviously stayed together and we still talk, you know I don't think've I don't feel like I've ever really known them. And if you had that conversation about what they went through, because it is very hard on the other siblings when you know one child in a family has health problems, they obviously become the focus It's difficult for the siblings for sure It is, and we haven't had that conversation. Maybe we should And in terms of the new world that was opening up to you, I mean, you did well academically, you also learned some very important life skills. It wasn't just skiing. what other kind of things were you learn? Oh I mean, I do remember that they They took a group of us over to a disused airfield a little few miles away and taught us how to drive Wow like and it was great. and they said, off course you'll never drive, but you should know what it's like Yeah. And so what over fourteen, there's five of us in this dual controlled car with one teacher And There four blind kids in the back saying, Well, faster, faster, faster. We were driving around this old airfield and it was so exciting Allright, Gary, it's time to go to the music. Disc number four if you would So my dad took me down to Denmark Street here in London, Tinpan Alley they used to call him. And b or he bought me a fender Strap copy in suunburst And me and three other guys when we were about fifteen started this band and We used to go and play the pubs around Worcester and in the West Midlands and Birmham and we get paid in beer bu these we were underage, All of us were underage. I mean, we wouldn't get away with it now, but they would pay us a beer It was enormous fun. fantastic. tell you how What were you called? What was the band called We were called for some random reason shhogun. We had nothing to do with Japan. I think it was on the Ty at the time. but I love the ambition of the name though, but we'ing. We would sit up all night trying to make up names for the band and just collapse into hysterics for hours on end. finally rejecting Iiron fist shogun. Well, they're both good. They're both very, very strong So In the band, we used to do a lot of cover versions And from that sort of era, I got introduced. to ZZ topop So this song is from a live album they did and it's just a fantastic kind of lazy but energetic blues song and I just love the title and it's Jesus just left Chicago. that's your She cano Ey top and Jesus just left Chicago So Gary O'Donahghue, you read phhilosophy in modern languages at Oxford University. Your parents, as you mentioned, left school at fourteen. What did it mean to you and your parents that you got a place there parents were beside themselves. I mean they they weren't very expressive, but They were chuffed beyond belief. And they had no idea what was involved, I don't think. And The first day we went up My dad said to me, do you mind is it alright if we turn up in a van? I said, Dad, it's fine. Van is fine. And those braille books won't fit in anything. Yeah, exactly. So he was sort of unsure but also completely delighted. So they didn't know what was in store for you. I mean, what about you? How did you find life at Oxford after being at school that was specifically for entirely for blind students. It was It was a bit of a shock. I mean, I was I was made to feel very welcome, absolutely. and There was a sort of quiet support that I got from my college, which was Christ Church I remember in the very early days saying to someone just randomly The braille books are a different size to ordinary books. they don't fit on the shelf in my room two days later theres a sort of knock on the door and the college carpenter is there saying We've come to build some shelves for you to fit the books. So they would do quiet simple things like that and made it very clear that if I needed anything I was to talk to them But it was a shock in the sense that You know, I kind of thought of myself as completely Well obviously I knew I couldn't see, but I thought of myself as normal. I thought, Well, the world's just going to be fine. Why would the world be strange? And these are all clever people. Why would they be strange? And some of them were lovely and some of them were strange and didn't really know how to relate or talk to you. And I do remember know overhearing a conversation at dinner one night, a few seats down with someone say Oh yeah, I went to knock on his door, but the lights were out, so I wasn't sure whether he was in or not. And I remember thinking, God you do need to turn the lights on Gaza, but otherwise people are not going to know you' inree room.. So it was, you know, as I say, there were lots of people who were lovely But it took some and some never you know, some people never get used to it. I mean, I remember the first term going to the University's counseling service And talking to someone there and they sort of I explain I was sort of feeling, not really understanding it. And this woman gave me this book. I never forget it. it was a book called Stigma by a psychologist called Irvving Gofman It was an anatomy of difference and how difference is dealt with by the world and how people react and All different not just blindness, but all different contexts of difference. I remember thinking at someone's thought about this before, Isn't that amazing? You know, you're not experiencing anything unique here This has been anatomized and categorized and analzed And that was a lifting of a burden for me. And I realized that, you know at that point, you know, there was a roadmap, you know, there were ways of dealing with this sort of stuff and that you didn't have to make it up yourself. And in terms of your own map and way forward, at what point did it occur to you that you'd like to be a journalist It's pretty much by chance, I think My dad again picked someone up in his cab, which I know always sounds like the start to a bad story. But he picked up he was actually a blind chap called Kevin Mulhn, who ran a production company making a program for Central teelevision at the time called Link. and it was a disability magazine program. and he happened to pick him up. And my dad had got talking to him and Kevin said to my dad, Oh, why doesn't he come along and have a look at one of our shows go out? And this was when I was like in the second year or something like that University. And so I went up to Birmingam and I looked at it and I kind of got a bit star strruck by this whole business And I like the fact that they were, you know just having people on telling stories and talking about issues and things like that. know that was interesting. And he put me in touch with a couple of other people. that meant that By the time I went on my year abroad to France I sort of had some contacts and I started going down I was meant to be going to the lectures at the Sortbouronsne, but I would go down to the BBC office in the Rue de Faubbourg Stainon Hory and borrow their real to real youiew a tape recorder and do little interviews and and sneak back to London and this legendary producer from in touch, Tina Hchel who you know, I've got so much to thank for. She took me under her wing and gave me an awful lot as did Peter White, who is the presenter has been the presenter of that program for forever So you were doing philosophy and modern languages at Oxford and it was French in particular for you, wasn't it? Yes, I always loved the language and one of my friends at school in fact said you should listen to some debuty And he played me this piece and I've never forgotten it and I always have it around and I listen to it regularly because it's a kind of reverie and it's a kind of It sort of transports you somewhere and it it's a piece called Lef F or Cu dein which basically translates to the girl with a flleax and hair partart of Debusy's La Fille au Chea de Lant, performed by Arturro Benedetti, Michelangeliie Gary' Donogghue, so you'd started filing radio pieces for the BBC, but you were turned down for several trainee ships. Why do you think you were turned down Well, I was told at one point by someone that they didn't think a blind person could be a reporter and certainly not a television reporter. And what was the situation? Was there anti discrimination legislation in place at the time? No that' before any of that. Unfortunately A couple of people at Westminster, the BBC's Westminster offffice, Bob Eggington and Richard Ay. took a pup on me, to be honest, you know, gave me a chance And I worked on the local radio desk at Westminster through the nineteen ninety two general election. And then I got a job after that. and so ironically, all the people that I would have been know were on these training courses were still on their training courses and you were in.dly had a job. And that was the beginning for you. That was the door kind of swung open. Yeah. But this was still a pre digital world How did you get the information that you needed and how did you get through it all to keep on top of the news agenda It was this sort of constant process of begging and borrowing time from colleagues, friends, family You know, I remember living with a girl and, you know At nighttime, you know go to bed and say, wouldould you mind reading these cting these newspaper cuttings? like not the most That didn't work out did it not? Quite rightly. She thought that was a bit much. How does that compare to now? Because obviously there's more information but presumably more accessible information because you have this text to speech technology Yeah, the landscape has been transformed, but you're always going to be one step behind because the technology moves on and your special technology doesn't keep up That's quickly. Right because, you know, the market is small and, you know innovation takes time and all that kind of thing, but you rely on the flow of information. That's a crucial thing How do you absorb what's being said, written, broadcast in a landscape that's kind of exploded in terms of outlets and media formats and online and social media. And as a sort of blind person, you can only really absorb things in a linear fashion. You can't you know skim an article or skim through a timeline And I spend a lot of time, you know in the evenings, in the early mornings. trying to sort of keep up, I suppose. and That takes a c an amount out of you Gary, in two thousand eight you came quite close to taking the BBC to an employment triribunal for Disability Discrimination So this relates to the two thousand seven foot mouth outbreak in Surrey. You'd found out that the then Prime Minister Gordon Brown was returning early from his holiday to deal with the crisis. You were a duty reporter at Westminster and expected to present your scoop on the flagship ten o'clock TV newews, but you were dropped in favour of a sightited reporter. What do you remember about the incident U I'm pretty limited in what I can say about that to be honest. but What I will say is that that it was it was a really difficult time actually And it was a very hard decision And it didn't come out of the blue. I'd spent, you know, a couple of years knocking on doors quietly trying to tell people that there was a you know I felt there was a systemic problem and that I wasn't being treated the same as other colleagues. and it was heard but not understood. And a point a moment came where I felt it had to make a stand. and it was hard because you know I loved what I did and I felt a genuine loyalty to the BBC, you know, I'd worked for by that fifteen years by that fifteen, sixteen years by that time. But I thought it was important and I felt it was important not just for me, but I thought it was important for know those who come after too. I mean, I should say the BBC had an internal inquiry at the time and didn't find evidence of discrimination, but in the end they settled with you We're, you know, twenty years on from that almost How much have things changed? How much more inclusive is the workplace that we find ourselves in today? It is much more inclusive. The one thing that really encourages me is that in the work I do day to day now, I'm dealing with People who have responsibility who are sort of a generation or two younger than me, you know, in their thirties, people controlling day to day the making news bulletins and things like that. And they just don't have those in built sort of issues about disability that People of my generation sometimes do. You know, my daughter's generation, their attitude difference They don' thrown by it. All right, Gary, I think we should have some more music now. It's your sixth choice today. What's it going be Okay, so I said I hated disco, didn't I? but so I'm making an exception for this song and I've chosen this for two reasons. One because it takes me back to those early working days in the nineties where We would work late till six at Westminster. And then we'd go out to soho to one in the morning and then get up in back in for eight again. But there was a club we used to go to particularly I think on a Friday night. I don't know the night or the club was called Carwash And we used to go there ironically, obviously, to dance to That's what they all say. I don't disco. But later when my daughter, Lucy was born when she was a very little We used to this was one of the songs I would put on in the car turn up really, really loud and sing to the maximum extent of our voices annoy Lucy's mother incredibly. And I just has a lot of joy about it. so it's car wasashed by Rose Roy. You might not ever get rich. Pimitry is better than being in a d tellelling who you might be. A boar, a by even a idiot you at the P was watcher I missing and wing power Rose Royce and Carwash. So Gary O'Donogghue, let me take you back to Butler, Pennsylvania in twenty twenty four and that assassination attempt on Donald Trump. You sawced some incredible eyewitness testimony that day And there was one interviewee who, you know your interaction with him went around the world. team of us, it wasn't just me and all that You know, my producer, I owner, my cameraman, Sam, you know, it was a joint effort, but I didn't know this, but he was holding a can of beer. He had this weird orange kind of head piece on, I suppose. He'd had that clearly wasn't his first can of beer It was kind of a combination of a Donald Trump hairstyle and a sort of bit of a red Make America Great again hat. It It was striking, I think Striking is a good word. So I owna found this guy who said he'd seen the shooter and tried to warn the Secret Service It was a risk putting him on live, but I talked to him and All I did really was keep asking the same question in a different way and he just kept being consistent And I thought, okay, this is someone who is not making stuff up. Well, I want to talk about another moment which was in a way unexpected, which was an exclusive twenty minute phone call with Donald Trump, President Trump, which happened last year So you had put a lot of preparation into this interview happening but it didn't happen when you were expecting it to I got the word back that this could happen, this might happen We got sort of ready. We were going to film my end of the phone call And the ringtone on my phone is the theme from suuccession. And when we were rehearsing this thing, and we had we sort of reprogrammed the phone number on my phone. so it just came up with the president sort of thing. And when my phone rang, my producer said, you cannot. People think that's deliberate. That will become a meme. You need to change that to something more vanilla So I have changed it back since to be fair. and the next day I thought the moment had passed they weren't, you know, really responding And so that following evening I was went back to my apartment sort of nap on the sofa. and then sort of mid evening the phone rang. and the press secretary said Hello Caree, it's Caroline. and the Pident's with me and I'm handing him over now. and I was kind. So you've just walken up put this put off. And I sort of touched the phone screen and accidentally hang up. And then they fortunately they ran back. and I was scrabbling for my little recorder thing and we started to do the interview and I wasn't entirely sure I'd started recording. Oh no But the pressure was on and so we talked and I thought I might get five minutes and I got twenty minutes. So what was your approach? There are plenty of interviews where you know, a sort of competive and stuff like that. But I what I wanted to do was try and draw him out a bit and And so I would ask as open a question as I could, and when there was a bit of a silence, I wouldn't fill it. and he would fill it What do you remember taken away from it Well, it was a must have been the end of a long day, certainly for me and probably for him. You know, he was in a slightly more reflective mood. He was on his own in the oval with the press secretary. That was you they were the only people there. And, you know, I remember at the moment, you know, one moment when I I think I asked him whether he trusted Putin or not. and And there was a sort of pause, this long pause. and he said I trust almost nobody. And I I remember a sort of chill running up my spine and me thinking that must be really lonely A really lonely place. So you've just hung up. What happened next? I ring I own up. and say, u Could you come in my apartment and see whether this has worked or not So an adrenal wait to see if it's actually record. And she takes the recorder and plugs it into her computer and says, Yes, I can see twenty minutes of recording there.. What would you have done if it hadn't worked? Well I thought about that. I thought maybe I should just tell no one that it had happened, pretend it hadn't happened. But if you're the foreign press in the United States, you're kind of quite low down the pecking order And you know, the BBC hadn't had an interview with a U. S. president for nearly a decade a sitting U. S. president I mean, he does a lot of interviews and he's done several since with British outlets, but we were you know we were the first, so that's what gives me a lot of pleasure. Let's go with the music, Gary. It's your seventh choice today. What are we going hear So there was this docyumenture idea I had had in my head for years about the blind Bues men in the south in the early twentieth century. And this title popped into my head Bind Black and Blue. And eventually a very good producer I've worked with before called Lee Kumatat, she got us a an interview with someone from Radio three who said, yeah, go and do it. And we had this road trip through the south. And I've chosen a song I mean they played all sorts of different kinds of blues. you know some of it was very raunchy, kind of you know quite lewd. And then you know on a Sunday they'd go and play sort of spirituals in the church, you know. But I've picked one that is very much on the sort of spiritual end. and this is Dark was the night and cold was the Ground, and it's Bind Willie Johnson Dark was the night and cold was the ground, blind Willie Johnson. Gary O'Donoghue, you've lived in the States for over ten years now, but your partner, Sarah, former journalist and your daughter, Lucy, live here in the UK. youve got a place in Yorkshire How do you maintain family life with that distance? We see quite a lot of one another. We're lucky enough to do that. But there are times when it's a strain. and you know, I'm certainly not in a hardship posting or anything like that, but you know being away is difficult and There are times where you know you wish you weren't just there in your own muchuch as I like my own company, there are times you wish you weren't just there in your own head or cooking for one is boring Is there anything you've missed out on, do you think of you you know over the years and I've obviously been not been around as much as I wouldd have loved to have been for Lucy growing up Not least because even when I was in the UK, I was working in London all week and things like that So I think that there's been a there's been a bit of a price for that for her particularly But we're very close. Gary, obviously we've been looking back on your story and reflecting on what you've done. I wonder what you're proudest of What am I proud of? I'm proud of kind of staying the course actually Because if you're bl I mean seventy percent of blind people of working age are out of work, don't have a job. And so like every day of my life, I still believe, despite your one's experience and whatever, if I lost my job tomorrow, I probably wouldn't be able to get another one. I do genuinely believe that And so staying in the cour and being one of the lucky ones is something I'm proud of of not having given up. You know, when I became a political correspondent, you know my dad, as I say, who didn't have a formal education, but you know was fascinated by politics, constantly writing letters to government departments. He was just so pleased about that and he wasn't around when I became the Washington correspondent, and I know he'd have loved it. And I know that your mum did get to see, you know a lot of your success. What did she make of it she, again, she was just quitely proud of it. She came out to Washington But It was like in just after the Trump she died the next month after the the Trump assassination attempt and And I was kind of in the midst of the election campaign and I think I maybe got three days back at home before I really had to sort of you know carry on and I didn't really get a proper chance to sort of absorb it. Yeah, it felt a little bit like I'd done her a disservice by not Really Gehing properly probably. But you must have made us so proud, you know, that moment, she was so frightened for your future and look at you now Well, I think she would have thought we'd done all right Well, Gary, there's a new adventure awaiting you because I'm about to cast you away to our desert island. How are you feeling about life there? yeah, I don't mind my own company. At least for a bit. I don't know if I could build a shelter. I did do some woodwork at school. In fact, the only time I met the current king was when he came to our school just before he got married and we were doing a woodwork class and we were making stools. and the only thing he said to me was, is it oak? And I said, We can't afford an oak. it's hash, obviously. So I might be able to build a bit of a shelter All right, well, I think we should have one more tune before you go So Lucy as my daughter has forced me to listen to new music. We have a chared Spotify playlist, which is entitled Club Bangers, which I quite like. And she keeps putting stuff on there. I don't really share her love of K pop to be fair, but you were just telling me you didn't like Dco a minute ago. indeed. But she keeps putting stuff on there. and the one I've chosen is Charlie XX and her song Von Dutch club going days along behind me, but I could maybe do a bit of dad dancing to this one because it is an absolute storming record. When that sort of bass line comes in, you can feel it go right through your skeleton Charlie XX and Von Dutch. I love that. It's so good. So Gary O'Donahghue, I'm going to send you away to the island now. I'm giving you the Bible, the compleplete works of Shakespeare, and you can take one other book. What's it going to be just say you do know that the Bible in Bread is forty eight volumes. I heard it's a substantial tom. Yeah It's going to keep you busy. It's like two meters high. I mean So we'll have to find somehere to put that. So thank you. The book I've chosen is The History of Western Pilophy by Bertraund Russell. I'm so glad I did phhilosophy at University. I was never very good at it, but it taught me a way of thinking that was a sort of lifelong gift You can also have a luxury item. What will that be I think what I've decided to have is a cricket ball. a red cricket ball that they use in the test matches because I've listened to the cricket on the radio since I was a small child and loved it. And I have a cricket ball in my apartment on the little table next to where I spend my life sitting around. and when I think I just have I throw it from hand to hand And if you' ever I don't if you've ever smell a cricket ball but the leather smell is lovely and then the texture of the seam, the only thing is that kind of if it rolls away on the beach, can it be like a magic one that comes back? because that would be tragic if I lost it. Yeah, we' definitely either that or we'd just get you like a massive pile so you can never run out and you know where they are. That'll be great. Okay, we'll definitely make sure that you don't lose a soulful luxury longer And finally, which one track of the aid that you've shared with us today, Gary, would you save from the waves? Blind Willie Johnson The fact that he doesn't there are no words means you can add your own words and your own meaning to it. sort of reaches into your soul in a way that I think might be constantly fruitful Garary Dongh, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs. It's been such fun. than you. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Gary. I'll definitely make sure we've got plenty of cricket balls to practice his spin bowling on the island for him We've cast away many journalists, including Clive My, Lindseay Hilson, and Lise Dussette. Gary's friend in Touch presenter Peter White is in our archive too. The studio manager for today's programm was Steve Greenwood, the executive production coordinator was Suusie Royls The content editor was Mgabbi Turia and the producer was Paula McGinley. Next time, my guest will be the actor, Emily Watson. I hope you'll join us If you've got a scrolling problem, then this is the podcast for you. It's called Top Comomet with me, Matt She. And me and Marianna Spring. we both investigate social media for a living. Whether it's disinformation, conspiracy theories, internet culture, memes, we're going to be getting behind the stuff that is popping up on your feed on this podcast That's top comment on BBC sounds