Episode Recap and Closing Thoughts

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It moisturizes throughout the night and provides forty eight hours hydration. Both contain three essential ceramides and MVE delivery technology to help strengthen the skin barrier in one hour. But real talk. My skincare routine used to be all over the place. I now have a set skincare schedule and Serra V facial moisturizing lotion has been my writer to die. It is so lightweight . I love it. Serravi is the number one dermatologist's recommended facial moisturizer brand and offers a range of facial moisturizers for all skin types. Find yours Hey, disco . Need a little more disgraceland in your life, just to touch to get you through? Yeah, me too. This is the podcast that comes after the podcast. Welcome to Disgraceland, the after party Welcome to the Disgraced Land Bonus episode, a little thing we like to call the After Party. This is the show after the show, the party after the party, the bridge to get you from one full episode of Disgraced Land to the other, the backyard to dig into the dirt, our mission to uncover the truth to confront the myth to reclaim the story. On this bonus episode that time George Jones met Porter Wagner in the bathroom in murder great art and some amazing album covered Easter eggs , plus your voicemails, text, emails, comments, DMs, and as always a whole lot of Rosie, this is the podcast for the musically obsessed the outsiders, the independent thinkers who know that the best history is the history that gets buried . Disgracedland is where I tell the stories they didn't want told, the kind you'll end up telling someone else, alright disc goes let's get into it All right, welcome into the after party everybody. I was in Boston this past weekend. It was a fantastic time to be there. World Cup was in town at Gillette out in Foxborough, but the city was just filled with people who were there for that event and it was just beautiful weather. People were outside rolling around. Everybody was in a good mood. It was great. Had an awesome time. Ran into some old friends on the street, took my son to some great music shops, music stores, record stores and I visited one of the last great record stores in the city, maybe in the world actually this past weekend when I was there in Boston, Looney Tunes on Harvard Av in Alston, Massachusetts . Looney Tunes used to be a mass av between Harvard and Central Squares . Anyways , this type of record store, it's dark, dingy affair , you know, you might you might sprain your ankle on your descent down the stairs into this place . And once you're inside, you're going to find yourself completely overwhelmed by records. Like they're just everywhere , everywhere that's all there is. I don't know. There might have been CD's . There were some pat, the guy who owns it. He had some instruments in the back that he , you kind know, of fiddles with while he's there at the store. I don't know if there were cassettes, but the just records everywhere, everywhere in super knowledgeable owner obviously , and with knowledge on all kinds of music from all types of genres. And there's like I said, just again, music and records vinyl, just it's like it's eating you when you walk into this place . And Pat, the owner has knowledge that most of us don't have when it comes to music. So it's a very great very cool experience, especially for my son . Now when I was there, I couldn't decide even where to look . Never mind what I wanted to buy if I wanted to buy anything at all . I couldn't decide between a Porter Wagoner album nineteen sixty eight's Carroll County ident Acc and a very cool looking misfits reissue , seven inch , it's like a record store day thing that I'd never seen before. I went with the Porter Wagoner album Porter is on my mind a bunch lately. He's one of the more fascinating characters from country music history . Blonde, tall dude, blonde pompadour. Striking image. He wore these r likehinestone nudy suits . Tremendous singer, massive star , one of those celebrities whose stardom and fame has eroded over time. And we just don't understand how big and popular and famous the sky was . And that happens to a number of celebrities over time. Anyways, Porter Wagner is the villain in the Dolly Part on story , the story that we just put together for you guys, it's coming out soon in a couple weeks. Porter introduced Dolly Parton to the world on his TV show back in the nineteen sixties, and you're going to hear again again, you hear all about that in the Dolly Party episode that we got coming your way. But Porter Wagner shows up in the George Jones story as well, not in our episode with George that we just released this week, but in the bathroom with George back in the early nineteen seventies at the Ryman Auditorium in Nashville during a live televised broadcast of the Grand Ole Aubrey . Now Porter in the restroom relieving himself between televis ed segments, George Jones followed him into the restroom, snuck up behind Porter . George came up behind , again, this just dashing tall blonde rhinestone cl porter wagoner and George Jones is drunk high on diet pills and he comes up behind Porter Wagoner who again is standing at the urinal and George very aggressively grabs Porter by his junk squeezes and twists and Porter howls in pain and George Jones howls right back with those golden pipes and he shouts I want to see what Tammy's so proud of . George Jones was referring to his wife Tammy Wynnette and to the affair that he believed that Tammy Wynnette was having with Porter Wagner. Porter Wagoner was rumored to be very well endowed. There was a lot of stories about Porter Wagoner in Nashville when it came to women. But there was no affair . According to the research I've done, I don't know, maybe there was, who knows, but it looks like there actually was no affair here. It was just George's jealousy getting the best of him . But there was Porter Wagner now covered his nudys suit, covered his pants anyway is covered in urine . He's going to go on tele vision in a couple minutes here . So he misses the next segment and Ernest Tubb has to sit in for him. I'm not sure how J Georgeones spent the rest of his night. This is a story that was that George tells in his book . He's talked about it in interviews in the past. I can't believe some of these interviews with George Jones , they're completely unhing ed . They would never happen today. These interviews that he did later in life in the nineteen nineties , they would never happen today and they're just out there. Now, if you look at George Jones , again, the subject of our episode this week, that story I just told you about Porter Wagner and George Jones is not in our episode. That's why I wanted to give it to you here . But if you look at George Jones, he's a very clean cut looking dude, even in the later years . I mean, his hair is a little bit longer by country standards for sure, but it's still this sort of like hard shell pompadore . And back in the early days, when he was more of a rockabilly guy for a brief minute there, it was like a wasn't even a pompadour. It was like a crew cut, like a high and tight crew cut . When you look at the image , you know, you listen to George Jones's pristine voice , you look at the images of him . There's little in common with that image between the image and the behavior, the crazed behavior. It's the same for most country artists. Most appear to be clean cut and conservative, at least by rock and roll and punk rock and heavy metal standards, the rock and roll and punk and heavy metal standards of my youth anyway . But beneath the clean cut image, country artists were, as we now know , as wild and transgressive as the punks , the metal heads and the rock 'n' rollers. And I have to admit and I have to admit, this is what attracted me to country music in when I was a kid I was a kid when I was I don't know nineteen twenty, twenty one in that I can't remember when I first took a real interest in country music, but it was early adulthood . And it was because of this reason. It was because learning that Hank William s, the guy who sang My Bucket's got a hole in it, the song that I'd heard as a kid that I thought was beyond dumb . That dude was a raving lunatic, hold on, who he was committed to an asylum before drinking himself to death in the back seat of a Cadillac . You know, I learned that. I learned that Johnny Cash, the old looking dude who hung out with Willie Nelson, the other old looking dude, Johnny Cash got blitzed on pills one day and set fire to a national park and it was an accident that wiped out nearly an entire population of an endangered species . It was the stories about country music. It was the stories that got me, not the music . It was the stories that first interested me, the story that about the Spade Cooley Murder, String Bean, Merle Haggard in prison, shotgun William Nelson, Faron Young Graham Parsons, Steve Earl. It made the music that much more interest ing to me . There was contrast, tension between the image of these artists and their behavior . You know, how could dudes who sounded so straight live, so dangerous, so crooked . And you know, I was on to country music , classic country music, I should say , at a fairly early age to the great annoyance of my hardcore bandmates and friends, but I didn't care. And soon it wasn't just about the artists making the music and their crimes. It was about the crimes inside the stories that these artists were telling in the songs that they were singing , the murder of the Knoxville girl, the hanging from the long black veil, the red headed stranger, the night the lights went out in Georgia, Johnny Cash and his cocaine blues, George Jones still doing time and the fatal crash , affair and cover up at the center of Porter Wagner's Carroll County accident. A great fucking song, by the way. This song is it's a true crime podcast series in and of itself, the Carroll County accident, which leads me to the here and now, okay? Up to this weekend where I'm purchasing that Porta Wagoner album in Looney Tunes in Boston. It's all crime in music. It's always been crime and music. Crime in music is the most interesting combination . And you probably get more of it in country music than you do in punk, in rock or in metal . And from an extremely authentic point of view as well, when George Jones wrote about stabbing and killing a friend in life to go , it's believable when you hear it when Porter Wagoner sings about the affair in the Carroll County accident or in any number of songs on his excellent album Cold Hard Facts of Life. You believe him because Porter Wagoner kind of looks like a dude who knows a thing or two about an affair or two . That violence , that infidelity, it spilled out into real life in the bathroom in the Ryman Auditorium back in the early seventies there with these two guys, and it's one of the many stories just like it from country music's wild history. And it's a history that we've barely scratched the surface of here in Disacelcrand incredibly . I mean, we've got episodes on Johnny Payche and Johnny Cash and Willie Nelson and Merle Hager and now George Jones, but there's so much more to tell . Anyways, check out the George Jones episode. Brace yourselves for the dolly partner episode that's coming. It's gonna be a doozy . All right, Dolly Parton isn't isn't coming up for a couple of weeks. In the meantime, you got George Jones in your feed. Like I said, then in the rewind slot coming up right after this here after party is our episode on Jennifer Hudson and Jennifer Hudson's story, the tragedy there, the triple homicide. That in of itself could have been a country song just brutal. Brutal. Anyways, that's going to be in your feed right after this after party. And then next week, our brand spanking new episode on Sonic Youth on Kim and Thurston on one of the coolest bands of all time and on the true crime at the center of one of the coolest album covers of all time, Sonic Youse Goo . That's right, you know the cover. It's the one with that illustration of the couple with the woman smoking , the Raymond Petabone illustration, the two, the pair, they look like a couple of kids who could be on a hanging out with velvet underground or something. And who was that couple in the illustration? That's what I wanted to know on that album cover on Google and what was up with that incredible quote next to their image. I stole my sister's boyfriend. It was all whirlwind, heat and flash. Within a week we killed my parents and hit the road. What the hell was that all about ? Well , it's about one of the most gruesome and unjust true crimes in history and one that features a real rock and roll hero. We're going to tell you that story in the story of Sonic Youth and try to really drill down into what made Kim Gordon so damn cool. You'll get that, like I said next week and when you're listening to this episode, which is, like I said, very much about the cover of Goo gle be thinking about what's the coolest album cover that you've ever seen? Does it get cool er than goo , okay? What album just held you transfixed ? What album just captured your imagination , arrested you? Just you're sitting there, you're I don't know , you're fifteen years old, sixteen years old, you're in your bedroom , you know, you just you got your stereo there. It's one of those solid state one pieces with the record player and the CD player and the double cassette player and the receiver all in one . It's like a small little black box connects right to the speakers and you got this album in your hand and you just can't stop looking at it. You can't stop listening to it . All right. What is that album? What's the coolest album cover that you can think of? Let us know, all right? That's going to be the question of the week next week. six one seven nine zero six three eight give me a call. Let me know your answer. You can leave me a voicemail. You can send me a text again at six se oneven nine zero six three eight you might hear your answer on next week's after party. Before that though, in this episode , we're gonna get you all primed up for the Sonic Youth Goose story that we've got coming your way next week. Zeth and I are going to be talking about hidden Easter eggs on album covers Beastie Boys, Grayful Dead, Iron Maiden, Harry Nilsen and More. That's coming up in the exclusive section of this after party. Go to disgracelandpod. com to sign up to become a disgrace land all access member and unlock exclusive content like this, plus add free listening. All right, we're gonna take a quick break and we'll get back in just a moment with your voicemails, texts, emails, and more . Okay , not so fun fact . Autoimmune skin conditions are actually on the rise . Cases are climbing nearly twenty percent every year . I know terrible opener for a podcast add. But here's the thing. I'm Holly Fry, and our skin exists precisely because of stats like that. Because more people than ever are living with conditions like psoriasis and hydrodinitis suprativa, and most of them are doing it alone, without answers, without community, without any one to tell them what the heck is actually going on. You know, not that many people knew about it and I felt kind of alone like am I an outcast? That's where we come in. We talk doctors, we talk appointments that are well a disappointment. We talk about the flare ups and the breakthroughs. Then we dive deep into the wild, occasionally gross, always fascinating history of how humans have tried to understand our skin over the centuries Spoiler alert, we did not always get it right. Listen to season three of our skin, a personal discovery podcast on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts or whate,ver you get your podcasts. I like things my way, my coffee, my schedule, and my treatment. So I talk to my doctor about self injecting with the Vivgard Hydrulo prefilled syringe, which contains FGATIGAMALFA and HILARONDAS QVFC. It's injected under your skin subcutaneously. It means I can inject in my space on my time . It's my treatment, My Way. Visit Vivgard Myway. That's VYVGARTMYWAY. com and talk to your doctor about Vivart Hytrulo brought to you by Argenics . The thing about AI for business , it may not automatically fit the way your business works . At IBM, we've seen this firsthand , but by embedding AI across HR, IT, and procurement processes, we've reduced cost by millions, slash repetitive tasks and freed thousands of hours for strategic work. Now we're helping companies get smarter by putting AI where it actually pays off, deep in the work that moves the business. Let's create smarter business , IBM All right guys, I am back. It's super early. You can probably tell from the sound of my voice. This coffee ain't doing what it's supposed to be doing, man. I don't know what's up . You ever go to make a coffee in the morning ? You put the beans in , get it all ready to grind , you drink your coffee, you drink your second coffee, your third coffee , fourth coffee, suddenly it's lunchtime and you're starving and you eat and then you know, it's one o'clock, two o'clock, whatever it is after that and you're just exhausted and you have a blazing headache and you're like, What the hell is going on ? And you realize you haven't had any caffeine that day, even though you had like three cups of coffee. But you are an idiot if you're like me and you went and you ground up decaf coffee beans and you've been drinking decaf all morning and now you're exhausted and you got a headache and you're in a bad mood. Can't tell you how many times I've done that. Not the sharpest tool in the shed sometimes. It's early morning, you're fumbling about, trying to get it going. Anyways , I got the high test stuff this morning, but I'm just I had some intense quick travel , quick turn around to Boston and back this weekend a little dragon . Coffee will do its thing, though. I'm confident. Anyways, I'm in the phone booth. It's the one across the hall hanging on the telephone with you guys . You know where I'm at last week's Question of the Week, we're talking about which singer just arrested you, just stops you in your tracks, just grabs you by the neck and makes you listen. The sound of their voice is just so compelling. George Jones does that to me. This one from I hope I'm saying this correctly Beto and where are you Beto? You are in the two one three Jake, this is Beto from LA responding to your question about what singers got me in my tracks . I have to say Aretha Franklin , Donnie Hathaway , and internationally , Nusarat Fati Ali Khan , Milton Macinento and Salifceta That is what's up. Thank you, Beto. I was I'm going to talk about Donnie Hathaway here in particular because it most directly addresses the part of this question that I can't quite articulate the right way, which is just that thing, you know, you know when you hear it, you just arrested. I said that before, you just hear the voice and it just stops you. It literally happened to me with Donnie Hathaway the other day. I was getting my haircut. I was in the barber's chair and you know, wanna at Elsid, he's he's doing his thing and we're talking and it's just Donnie Hathaway is singing Jealous guy . And it was just one of those things that I just I just had to be like, hold up, listen to that. God, this guy can sing . Just fucking incredible . It was the live version from seventy two, Donnie Hathaway's live album . And I got to admit for a guy whose voice I find to be completely compelling. I do not listen to Donnie Hathaway enough . I just forget, I just forget. So better off, I'm going to take your voicemail as a reminder. Thank you, buddy. I'm going to be pumping out the Donnie Hathaway today. All right, let's check out the three six zero . Hey, Jake , wow, this podcast is amazing. I have learned so many things in the last week . I'm calling to answer your question of the week, quote that one person with the voice that just takes you there. And for me, it's got to be the okay case one hundred percent . I feel the void every time she really lets loo . And I actually wanted to answer an old question, who is not punk, but is punk . And for me, that is the band The Knife . If you haven't, I highly recommend just give her a listen . It's pretty cool . What do you think? Love you. Oh, wow. Okay, three six zero, yes, Niko Case , one thousand percent . Deep red bells , fantastic, just everything's kind of fantastic. And speaking of murder ballads and the whole kind of like creepy country thing , she's a great modern version of that not a psychopath like George Jones though. And someone I have a ton of respect for great artist and yes, great singer. Who'd you mention the knife? It's funny you mentioned the knife. I was just thinking of the knife. I heard some song on some dumb TV show and I was like, This song sucks, but it reminds me of something good. What is it that it's reminding me of? And it was heartbeats by the knife. Are we talking about the same artists here? I think we are. I think we are . Anyways, I appreciate you three six zero. Thanks for calling. Call back any time six one seven nine zero six six six three eight. You guys want to hit me up. That's how to do it . Voicemail and text. Let's do some text here. Let's go to the three hundred seven here. Hey, this is Flow from the three hundred and seven. You said your son's a huge killers fan . Seeing as we spent adequate time discussing great covers and as I mentioned, I'm a massive Morrisi fan. Here you go. Can't have the killers without Morrisi . And Flo sends in the killers version of why don't you find out for yourself, the Morrisi song . You know , I don't think about this song that much and it's I don't think about the correlation between the killers and Morrissey and I should it's an obvious one and it just doesn't, I don't know, doesn't register for me . You know, I was talking to the killers the other day with my wife, talking I said talking to the killers, talking about the killers with my wife the other day. And the killers are interesting because their first album, in our opinion is their best , not that their other albums aren't really good. They are second in particular . But which artists legit? Like their first not albums where they come out, their first album's great and then they just kind of fade away. That happens a lot, but they come out and their first album is just the best. It's the best. You can't fuck with it. It's the it's like kind of like the strokes. Like they never really they made great albums afterward, for sure. They're still making great music, but that first album is the best album. And this isn't a thing where I'm like, oh yeah, have you heard the early shit? That's not what I'm doing here at all . I just legitimately think that when it comes to the killers and when it comes to the strokes that their first albums are the best that'.s And a good question . Which other artists , you know, first album was their best I don't know . Made me think of you guys. I was like, oh, that's a question of the week. Hubba from the three hundred four write said, Hey, end of the world mixed Tall Dark Stranger by Buck Owens . Is that a Harlan Howard song ? two hundred five Metallica, Queenswright, january fourteenth, nineteen eighty nine BJC arena, Birmingham, Alabama. I was in a mass of people waiting to enter . And for some reason they were late opening the arena entrances. And the section we were waiting in had walls that funneled people towards the set of doors and the crowd started getting frustrated and people at the door started chanting angrily . One, two, three opened up the fucking door, five six seven eight opened up the fucking gate. A couple of employees almost opened the doors, and the peoples at the back started pressing forward, crushing us all together against the arena. None of the groans of pain of people yelling did anything to back off . We were crushed that way for more than ten minutes before the venue finally opened a few of the doors spaced apart and I was crushed by the surgeon crowd into one of the closed doors next to an open one. My buddy was at the edge of the open door. We had to work together to drag my body to the open door. Oh, damn, this sounds freaking harrowing and fall into the door way , finally escaping the press of the crowd. I hadn't thought about that part of that night for years , but all the pain and sounds came back while hearing the story of those poor Liverpool fans rushing forward, Patrick at the two hundred and five . Patrick, thank you for your text. That sounds horrifying . Patrick guys is referencing the Hillsborough disaster episode that we did in because we're here in World Cup Week, World Cup weeks and months . How long is the World Cup? It's like three weeks, right? Something like that? It sounds scary as hell. three hundred two writes in, hey, very excited to inform you that I just turned on a new listener as I was walking my dog in the park and wearing my disgraceland t shirt. A guy came up and commented on it. It turns out he's a rock fan and I was able to recommend your podcast. As he was walking away, he took out his phone to look it up on Spotify. And as I was passing him again, he told me he was starting with the Anthony Bourdain episode. So I just want to say hi there, friend , friend in Delaware who just got turned on to Disgraceland. I hope you're really enjoying it. I am three hundred two. Thank you. I appreciate that. Very cool of you to be extending this sort of disgraced land community here . Love that. eight six zero writes in, Hey, Jake, it's Tripp from the eight six zero I sent a text about a month ago concerning the upcoming Jim Morrison Doors episode but I had surgery two days before so I don't know how can so I don't know how coherent it was I commented on Robbie from the Doors his recent book and why in my opinion it was the best Doors book . Robbie separated the myth from the band and from Jim in general in a way that hasn't been done before. He talked about Jim possibly dying from heroin and explains about his own smack addiction in the nineteen eighties. Anyway, looking forward to the door's episode Peace from the Northeast eight six zero. Appreciate you, man. Yeah , I don't want to spoil it here, but I will tell you obbie's some of Robbie's information from that book makes it into the episode and makes the argument that I'm making that much more compelling. I'll say that. Okay. six seven nine zero six three. You guys want to hit me up talk about anything voicemail and text. That's how you do it. You can also email me disgraceland pod at gmail dot com We're going to do that on the other side of this break, talk to you in a second Okay , not so fun fact . Autoimmune skin conditions are actually on the rise . Cases are cl imbing nearly twenty percent every year . I know terrible opener for a podcast add. But here's the thing. I'm Holly Fry, and our skin exists precisely because of stats like that , because more people than ever are living with conditions like psoriasis and hydrodinitis suprativa, and most of them are doing it alone, without answers, without community , without anyone to tell them what the heck is actually going on. You know, not that many people knew about it and I felt kind of alone like Am I an outcast? That's where we come in. We talk doctors. We talk appointments that are, well, a disappointment. We talk about the flare ups and the breakthroughs. Then we dive deep into the wild, occasionally gross, always fascinating history of how humans have tried to understand our skin over the centuries . Spoiler alert , we did not always get it right . Listen to season three of our Skin, a Personal Discovery Podcast on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts . I like things my way, my coffee, my schedule, and my treatment. So I talked to my doctor about self injecting with the Vivgard Hydrulo prefilled syringe, which contains FGARTIMOLFA and hyaluronid ase QBFC. It's injected under your skin subcutaneously. It means I can inject in my space on my time. It's my treatment, Myway. Visit VivgartMyway. com that's VYV GARTMYWAY. com and talk to your doctor about Vivgard Hytrulo, brought to you by Argenics . The thing about AI for business , it may not automatically fit the way your business works . At IBM, we 've seen this firsthand , but by embedding AI across HR, IT and procurement processes, we've reduced cost by millions, slashed repetitive tasks, and freed thousands of hours for strategic work . Now we're helping companies get smarter by putting AI where it actually pays off, deep in the work that moves the business. Let's create smarter business , IBM Alright guys, we are back to disgrace and pod at gmail dot com I appreciate the thoughtful emails . I appreciate talking to you guys connecting with you guys every week . This one comes from Rob McDonald's subject Hillsborough message. Hey Jake, just wanted to say congratulations on your episode covering the Hillsborough disaster. It's a difficult subject matter and you handled it with real care, clarity, and respect. As a Liverpool fan, I really appreciate the tone and the way you gave space to both the human impact and the wider context. A great song about the wider issue is Billy Bragg's Scouzers never by the sun. Is a scouzer or scozer? I always pronounce it incorrectly. I apologize . It means it's a liverpool thing, right? Yeah . However happy I made you with the Hillsbor episode, I'm upsetting you now, Rob. I am sure of it. And I apologize. Anyways, Rob was on to say, hey, he released it after the phone hacking scamal investigations into Newscore in twenty eleven of protests against the Broadbader issues around tabloid media . Thanks again for your thoughtful episode. You got it, Rob. Thank you for the email. Appreciate you. I don't know this Billy Bragg song. Billy Bragg, a lot like what I was saying with Donnie Hathaway, someone who I absolutely love and somebody who I just do not listen to enough. I never think to listen to them. I wish I had a little mental note in my head that I could just, you know, I open up the Spotify app or whatever, I go to my shelves to pull a record. I'm like, what do I want to listen to? And you know, we're all the same. We all end up going back to the same shit . I got Billy Bragg albums in my collection, Donnie Hathaway and I just don't listen to to him enough and I need. And I appreciate the recommendation, Rob. Thank you very much. Disgrace and pod at gmail. com you guys want to send me email about anything. Recommendations. You want to hear recommendations from me, music recommendations. You can get that in the Hollywoodland feed over in the rap party episodes that Zeth does. I'm in there every week giving you music recommendations alongside Zeth's movie recommendations. See how that works? At the disgraceland pod on the socials. You want to hit me up on Instagram, Facebook , even X , once in a while. Once in a while, I'll open the X app . Not making a habit of it because I like my sanity . I could say the same about all the platforms though . It's a love hate relationship. No, it's not love . And I don't like to hate anything, but you know, it's tough. Anyways, in response to our Marilyn Manson episode E dot Showsted on Disgraced Rights, Hey, I saw Marilyn Manson at a Dave and Busters a few years ago . That's why I wanted to read this . Just the idea of Marilyn Manson out of Dave and Busters is hysterical to me and he looked like he was over his own gimmick twenty five years ago to be in your mid fifties but role playing nineteen ninety nine forever too, much for, even him. Which brings me to this thing I've been thinking about, how some artists just get they get stuck in that caricature of themselves that they created years ago. I was watching this Lazimanelli documentary over the weekend and she talked about it where she was the sequin girl. She had to be that girl whenever she was out in public, even socially with people who were not just extremely close with her, but even like acquaintances, that's who she had to be . And you know, I think she transcended that in a lot of ways , but it must suck for people. I don't, well actually, I don't give a shit about Mario Manson and Brian W arner, but you know what I'm saying? Like it just must suck as an artist to be stuck in that thing forever. And I think certain artists find ways to transcend it and move beyond it and to grow and to not get stuck. And I don't know, I don't know the trick. I don't know what the trick is. I don't know how they do it. I haven't really thought about it enough, but it's interesting and I know it's applicable to some of the stories we're telling here. So I'll probably get into this concept a little bit more. More artists spotted out in the public in response to our Jim Sullivan disappearance story that we had on Instagram