Reflecting on factionalism and leadership

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Well, I'm sorry because the premise of your question is, I'm afraid flawed. Because this isn't just a by election, is it? This is the start of a leadership campaign, isn't it? Let's just cut to the chase here. I grew up as a team player. You support the manager even if you disagree with his tactics . Hello, it's Beth Rigby here. Welcome to Electral Dysfunction Coming to you today from Wigan. It's where my mum was born, so I've been here a lot through my life and it's also where I've just interviewed the Mayor of Greater Manchester Andy Burnham. Now it's just me today on the pod because I came to speak to Andy Burnham. We were only able to nab about fifteen minutes with him for this podcast, although I did make that interview about twenty minutes long, I didn't get hold of. He's been very busy on this campaign , he is trying to become the next Labour MP for Makerfield, but we've managed to get in to see him on the campaign trail exactly a year after I last spoke to him on this pod. Now that back then he was brushing off rumours of a leadership bid when I asked him about it. There's only so many times you can try and you've lost twice, you've got to read the runes, haven't you? But I'm not going r toule out a return at some point to Westminster, but the people who say that and the people who constantly write those headlines about everything being a leadership bid are too Westminster oriented. I do sort of , you know, I don't know, you know, grip my teeth a bit when I hear people just constantly seeing everything as a leadership play going back to Westminster. Look at what we are building . Well, safe to say a lot has changed in the last year and you're about to hear just how much. And I should say because this is not just a story about Andy Burnham, I'll be chatting to a number of other candidates here in Maker Field as well. So do keep an eye out for those interviews in the next few days . We did ask all of the candidates to speak to us this week, but unfortunately Reform UK declined to give us an interview and we didn't hear back from Restore Britain. You can also find a full list of all of the candidates in the episode description. But first, here's Andy Burnham. So have a listen or watch on YouTube and then tell us what you thought. Send your messages into the burner phone. That's zero seven nine three four two hundred four or if you can email us at electrical dysfunction at Sky. UK and I'll be back on Friday as usual with Ruth and Harrier . Andy, thank you for coming on our electrical dysfunction podcast again. You're welcome . I last interviewed you a year ago . And back then you were talking to me about wanting to offer voters or voters needing a popular left offer. That's how you described it. What are you offering the people of Makerfield? An end to forty years of neoliberalism is the way I've put it for in other words a country , services that work for you, not for the private vested interest and is the reverse of what we've had over a long period of time where the cost of living has just gone up and up and up. I've been on many doorsteps, you can probably see, I've been outside a lot in recent weeks. It is the dominant issue. Immigration too comes up a lot. Cost of living though is the thing that everybody is struggling with. People have just lost that bit of breathing space that they used to have. Their water bills have gone up, their energy bills have gone up , their rent has gone up . Their bus fares, hopefully have gone a little bit down and that's one thing that I often point to. We just need though to take that different approach to running things across the main services that everybody uses to lower the cost of living for people and make life more affordable. And in times of cost of living today here in Makefield, you'll make an announcement on water bills . Yes. So I'm kind of making the argument that we've had a kind of Westminster system that is too close to the vested interest. That's given us forty years of an approach to things that hasn't worked that has put the private interest before the public interest . In the case of water , I think you've got the classic case of an industry where the shareholders never lose and the bill payers never win because they're the ones who always have to have the hikes in their bills to pay for everything. And that's happened to people here in this constituency, but across the Northwest, they've had huge hikes in their in their bills . But the shareholders aren't affected by it. Their returns are guaranteed. And it's just not acceptable. This is not an industry that works for the public. It's exactly like buses before we re regulated them where they were working for the private interest, not the public interest. The same is true of water and to add insult to injury, you know, if you think about this, it comes all the way down from Westminster the way, things have been run , residents here are suffering repeated internal flooding to their homes. I've just been with a group of residents now. So they're paying high bills for for what? They don't get the support or the protection in terms of flooding in these communities. It really is not acceptable . It won't carry on because I'm going to make sure that the voice of residents here is heard combined. Okay . And Andy, when you launched your campaign here, you said in your campaign video, some say this by election is not necessary . I say it's one of the most consequential of our lives. How so? Because we just went through a local election period where people are telling us quite plainly politics isn't working for me. If people walk out of their front door and they see a pothole and then the counselor is, well, we can't afford to fix it. Why should they feel that anything is working? And I think that kind of frustration is coming through loud and clear from those local elections and you cannot carry on as normal in those circumstances. Politics as usual. Why elections so consequential? What are the consequences of it It's a chance to create a circuit breaker to say no, we need something completely different to what we've had. And I've created something . Well, I've created something different in Greater Manchester. I left Westminster ten years ago to build a new politics and that's what we've done . I've taken a place first approach, not a party first approach, focused on problem solving, not point scoring, a long term approach to the economy not a short term. And look at what we've done. We've got the fastest growing economy in the country. If you build a new politics, you can actually bring through big changes like the change we've done to the buses that benefit people's li ves. And this is what national politics needs. Westminster is not working for these communities. And I'm just going to say then the silent bit out loud because this isn't just a bi election, is it? This is a start of a leadership campaign, isn't it? Let's just cut to the chase here. Well, I've said it quite clearly. You know, I've spent my entire political career representing these communities in Greater Manchester. So twenty five years on Saturday actually, it's the twenty fifth anniversary of my first election at the weekend and I have been true all the way through my political career fighting for people here this part of the Northwest who have had a raw deal off the powers that be in Western Do you want to become Well, let me just answer your question in my way. When I was the NPLE I used my influence in the cabinet to get the Lee Sports village built and other things. And I've always done that. I use my influence to get justice for the Hillsborough families. I am calling for a completely different way of running things, a completely different political culture . And I will take that fight to the highest level that I can. I can't and I won't today say, well, what comes after this by election? Because I'm making no assumptions about what comes next other than to say I will take the fight of people here to the highest level that I can. I would love nothing more than to see this constituency and its proud communities at the top of the list of people's attention rather than at the bottom of the list as they have been for far too long. Okay, let's pause there then let's just go the bile action you're in it to win it obviously you're knocking all of the doors of the undecided at the moment. What about the Greater Manchester Merl election? Because if you do win here in Makefield, are you then going to spend the next few weeks of this summer campaigning for the Greater Manchester Merlty to stay labour because that could be in real trouble, right? What I'm trying to do here through the by election campaign and it's actually been an amazing experience so far, the energy that's coming into it. The number of people that have come to support this actually had a lib them from Coventry say I've come up because I can see what you're trying to do and you're trying to change things for the better . But we've had hundreds of people , more people at any by election in recent times. We've knocked every door twice. I apologize to the good people of this area for that. But finally, then they're in the national spotlight and that's got to be got to be a good thing. But what I'm saying to you, Beth is this is a movement to change politics that we're building. I've changed politics in Greater Manchester, but we now need to take that movement to the national level because it doesn't work for people in the world. And the Mayor Connect election , I mean, that's going to be pretty bad, right? You didn't have to call this by election. The Mayor campaign would be would be part of that movement and that call to change politics at the national level. I don't think I don't think we can carry on as we are. Let me explain to you really clearly what's at stake in this by election and more broadly for the country . People are telling us, they're warning us, you know, politics is not working. So when a politic actuallyian's going to hear that and do something different? And the reason why it is so urgent , I'm not sure how far away we are now from politics in Britain becoming like politics in America it is so divided, polarized on streets between workmates in canteens , in communities. We cannot let that happen. We cannot let you can take on Nigel Farage better than Kit Star, that's it, isn't it? What I'm saying is politicians have left politics in a really poor place. It's in a very low esteem with the public and you just cannot do business as usual. Performer doing really well around here. But you can't do business as usual in those . But Nigel Farage is doing well, isn't he? But I think and I've not spent my time doing the point scoring against the others because my whole campaign is we need to be better. We've not been good enough, we need to be better. And actually, Beth, I'm living my approach in this campaign. I'm not doing the point scoring because the public doesn't like that anyway, but they want to hear from me about how we make things better Merrill race. You understand that you need to win that greater Manchester Merrill race if you win here, right? Be very bad. It will reflect very badly on you. on you. If then Manchester turns to reform after you win this constituency because you stepped away. So I would n't give it my all to then win that meral meral race. It's crucial, but it's the same thinking that I applied when I stepped forward in Gorton and Denton , I do not want to see a politics come into Greater Mancher that in the end poisons the system because Greater Mancher is successful because of the partnership we have. Well, let me answer the question, Beth. The collaboration that we've built, the place first approach rather than the party first approach. We have a positive relationship with business. We build it like that and that has made us a success and if you want to defend that success, you cannot let a politics come in that starts to divide people one from another. Well, look, I want to go on to your campaign launch or onto what you talked about about policy. You said you want to make everyday life more affordable for people, have an education system that focuses on technical pathways as well as university. Talk up the life chances of kids who want those paths to good jobs in a new economy. That is Kirstama's agenda too. So will you serve in his cabinet? I'm putting forward my agenda. I'm not putting forward anyone else's agenda and I'm proudly doing that because the policies that I'm speaking to policy policies that I've pioneered as Mayor of Manchester. We don't have an education , but I'm sorry because the premise of your question is, I'm afraid flawed. We do not have an education system in this country that has parity between academic which is technical. Which serf in his cabinet or not? I'm trying to explain to you . I just talked about I'm just saying a lot of what I read there is what he's talked about I'm not in the business of making assumptions about serving in people's cabinets or whatever jobs I'm going to do. I'm making a case for change in this by election, a change to labour , a change to politics, a change to the way the country is run . And I will take that fight as far as I can take it, but I'm not making assumptions here about jobs that I might know but it's a sort of weird conversation because this is a bilection, but it's a national conversation about labour and how labour might change. You are clearly running because you want to go out and try and be prime minister. And now . we So're having this weird conversation with that 's not weird and then you won't know it. It's not weird because I'm setting out clearly the change and this is quite a change for labour in recent times. I mean I've made that on their piece quite clear when Tony Blair put his essay out last week. I didn't expect to be in an essay writing competition in the by election, but it was helpful for me to say, actually, you know what? I see things fundamentally different. Okay , if politics is to work for the communities of Makerfield, it needs quite profound change on a level that I don't think anyone currently in Westminster is actually bringing I'm already running out of time , which is a shame, but let's get into that because this by election, obviously, you're saying yourself, it matters not just to Makerfield, but to the whole country . You are running on a ticket of change. You said it a lot in this industry You need a mandate for change. So would you call a snap election ? I mean, you know these questions are just like they're not valid in this situation. I've got I can't if I stood here looking like I just take people here for granted, I don't do that. I am going round. The reason I so you know if you like caught the sun is because I'm going out knocking on people's ey.es I do not take a single vote for granted here. I do not take anything for granted in this election . And in fact, this election is a close race. This is the reason there's nothing guaranteed here at all and you're trying to make me look as though I think things well are guaranteed and I'm planning I'm planning my next move one two three Well it's not light it's honestly not light because your spokesman has said this morning that you won't call a snap election if you enter down the streets, so I'm asking you that. I just think what we've had to deal with in this election, not necessarily from you, Beth, but from some voices in the media is just speculation that at times has been absolutely wild and out of control . And you know, we have to knock things down because they just want to constantly run something new and we're just not, you know, we're focusing on the by election. I'm not taking anything for granted. I'm actually running a very different campaign because I believe politics in this country needs profound change. And I think it's really important that people hear me say that I'm not point scoring against the other parties . I'm running a campaign saying, you know, we need to be better. We want your trust so we can be better to make the country work. And told me a year ago when we did our last podcast that you wanted to look at land value tax and you also said in that interview that the country overtaxed work, workers and undertaxed assets and wealth. In September you called for the top rate of tax to be hyped up fifty pence and for council tax reval uation to target the wealthy. Are those still principles you stand by? Those still things you believe in? Well, I made the argument about council tax to you back then because it's poss ibly the most regressive of all the taxes. And let's remember, Beth, it's based on nineteen ninety one house home values . So how can it be right that a banned D property or band B property in this in this borough in this constituency is paying a higher council tax than properties in Westminster, Wandsworth in London. How they do want to look at how can that be right? Do you think that's right? Well, it's not I'm not going to make the decisions about it. People are interested in what you think, not what I think. Well, I'm posing the question because I think people more broadly needs to debate whether or not that is right . And actually the government began to bring forward some change relation to that point where we had the extra bans on council tax introduced. So there needs to be a discussion about these things. And I'm kind of one who does open up the discussion difficult issues because we haven't got the fairness in the country that we should have. And particularly when it comes to this area where people are, you know, they've got the flooding issue that I've mentioned. There's an illegal waste tip. You know, the council hasn't had the investment it deserved over years. Isn't it time that the voice of these communities was heard really loudly in the Westminster system. Top rate top rate of tax ? Well, of course, you've got to have a fair taxation system across across the board. And my focus actually from the doorsteps here is the call that many people have made to me through this campaign around the threshold at the lower level where so many people are drawn into tax and they don't get the rewards from the work that they are I'm open to a fairer taxation system , but I'm not making commitments beyond that. At this point in time , I'm listening to what people here are saying to me. I'm doing my best to represent what they're saying into the national debate and I'll continue to do that if I'm successful for two things the Mandelson files. You've made a statement about them yesterday . The work and pension secretary Pat McFadden had texted Mandelson saying every meeting I have is who can we tax in order to pay benefits to others they're asking the wrong questions. Do you agree with that? Well those are the wrong questions definitely because I'm actually in favour of quite significant reform to the system . I think the DWP system doesn't support people into work. It creates a lot of fear in people, but it doesn't actually give them the help that they need. I think it needs to be devolved and a more local approach taken to it. I don't think people in their twenties should be stuck on benefits . The reason that sometimes they are is because the system doesn't work, the support isn't there for them as teenagers and they'll go back to what I said actually about the education system. We've had an education system successive governments that has been focused on the university route and has not done enough for young people who want technical qualific ations. And you can't blame young people when the education system isn't laying a path for all young people. We've had an education setup for some rather than for all to succeed. And that is a massive part of my agenda that I want to bring forward in terms of the change the country needs. And it's absolutely not accepting that we just end up with lots of people in their twenties on benefits. I have much higher ambitions for them. I've got one more question which I hope is fun . Let's see how we'll find that. There's a joke I want to tell you and I think oh my goodness okay I think I can you bear with me? Is it famous? Flare right Joke Brown Knight , a Mellabanite, a starmerite, an insider and an outsider walk into a bar and the barman asks what you have in Andy. Do you find that funny irritating or something entirely different I don't know may,be it's mildly funny, but I think it's actually revealing of the people who tell it because it says that they are factional people, that they revel in this fight between Blair and Brown Millabandon Corp or whatever the scenario is . You know what it's like from these parts? People here grow . I group as a team player where you support the manager even if you disagree with his tactics. You know, that was always been my approach. I'm not a factional politician. I never have been. I'm actually somebody who believes in politics that unifies people, brings people together, sets a positive agenda, ambitious agenda. That is actually my politics . I believe I can do that, bring people together beyond the sort of narrow factional debate that too many people get drawn into. And this comes back to where I started, Beth. You know, the revelations yesterday around the culture, around the Mandelson situation, it reveals a Westminster to me that is too factional, but it's also too close to vested interests. And that has given us this world where the public interest is crowded out by private vested interests. And the basic services don't work for people. Their lives have got worse when the lives of some other people got have got so much better . Where in the water industry , profits are siphoned out and people are left paying higher bills. This is what has gotten us to a point where people have lost faith in politics and politicians. And this by election is a moment where we can say look them in the eye and say, right , do you want real change? Profound change to the way we run things? And that is what I am putting forward in this by election. British politics, I think, has waited a long time for a debate as honest as this, and I'm proud to have brought it. Just on Kirstarma, I'm going to ask you because you brought up being a team player , you're not on his bench anymore. You're not in his team. You are challenging him to be the manager. The facts will show. I mean, it was a difficult situation early this year when I did try to , but I didn't and I've behaved in the same way as I always have that those who tell the joke find so irritating. But I have then supported the Prime Minister. I was at public events with him. That's what I do. That's the kind of polit ic politics that I've always practiced and I always will. But there does come a moment when you get local election results like the ones we had here in nearby St. Helens and all around the country . There is a deafening cry for change now coming from the British public. Are we going to listen to it or are we not? Third time then, is this your time, Andy Burnham? It was my time to step forward and put the case for the culture change in Westminster that I want to see. I've been almost ten years as mayor. In many interviews with you and others, Beth, I've said that one day I would look to return. And I think that day has come. It is time to return. I want to take everything that I've built in Greater Manchester, the new political culture, the big improvements that we've been able to achieve. It's now time for the national level