Reflecting on Political Mistakes and Future Goals

How does a banana trigger a CIA backed coup? Do airpods herald the arrival of a new global order? What do LED lights say about the future of humanity? I'm Ed Conway, and in each episode of my new podcast , Stuff Matters, I take an object, crack it open, and reveal the world shaping forces hidden inside. This is economics told through the things we think we understand. Search Stuff Matters on your podcast app to listen and follow . Sky News, the full story first Don't you sometimes go into your study and quietly swear? Well , occasionally I keep my explodus myself most of the time There's a clear difference therefore of opinion between me and President Trump. My own view is that a lot of what he's said and done has been to put pressure on me . I made a mistake there and I hate the fact I made that mistake . Hello and welcome to Electral Dysfunction with me, Beth Rigby, Me Ruth Davidson, and me, Harriet Harmon. I'm in Helsinki . I've just interviewed the Prime Minister, and I've imminently got to get back on a plane and get home. We ended up doing a twenty plus minute interview, which I don't normally get. I think you've just heard a preview of that. And Harriet , what did you think of what you heard? Well, I thought it was a very significant interview and I actually felt very encouraged by it, which bearing in mind he was talking about the intense difficulties for the economy with the Iran war , being abused and bullied by Trump, the dropping we're going to get in the May elections and the disastrous mistake that he made over the appointment of Mandelson. It might seem a bit odd for me to say. I felt encouraged by the interview , but I really got a sense of direction which I think usually he get quite an xious when I see interviews with Kirstama because he seems more calculating and actually I thought it was very genuine. I got a real sense of purpose . It was thoughtful and I thought it was a really encouraging interview. So I think my first reactions were, I thought the really interesting bit was where he was talking about how the fall of the Berlin Wall had changed the world and how it changed how we looked at the world and the sort of what was in the ascendancy, this idea of democracy, of liberty, of kind of Western values, and that we're at an inflection point right now, and these things might be receding. And I think that' thats a worry for lotss of people and it' a worry that I share. And I think the other thing that really kind of hit home was the Peter Mandelson bit. So he talks about Peter Mandelson and how much he regrets appointing him. It struck me as you could tell that this was a man that was absolutely kicking himself that he'd listened to folk and appointed this guy against his better judgment . There was a lot else in there though that I just listened to it and I didn't believe him. You know, it's the Prime Minister of the UK and he's talking about decisions that he's made and why he's made them and what he wants to do. And I'm just thinking, I don't believe you, I don't trust you, I don't know how you're going to do that. You're not explaining it to me. And I think that's a hurdle that he still has to get over with people that aren't natural labor boaters. But should we just have a quick listen to it because I don't let's listen to it and then we'll pick up. Prime Minister, welcome to our podcast. Thank you for having me. The first time. Yeah, and I hope it's the fast of many because we're going to do a bit of a different interview than we normally do. Because I normally see you with my political editor hat on only and it's a question and answer a five minute talk about . But this is hopefully going to be a longer conversation at a time when things are incredibly turbulent in the world. Yeah. I'd like you to reflect on that a bit, but before we do that, we have got some news because let's kick off with that. You're in Helsinki for a meeting of the Jeff Military Coalition and you've just announced that marines, UK Marines are going to board Russian shadow fleets and seas assets. What's that all about? Well, you're absolutely right. This is a meeting of northern European countries. It's a military alliance that was set up in twenty fourteen and we work together on the threats particularly in the North of Europe , in the Baltics, Nordics and what we call the High North , where we've got interests as a country . Obviously, the focus for the last few years has been on Russia and the threat from Russia and what we can do. And we've done a lot together, training together , we've done operations together . But what we were talking about today and what I've announced is that we need to do more on the shadow what we call the shadow fleet. These are basically vessels that are carrying Russian oil in breach of sanctions out to market . And we are I've announced today that from now on I've given permission to the UK to intercept these vessels and to do our part to enforce the sanctions that are in place. Now that is designed to put further pressure on Putin because the Ukraine war is now four and a bit years in. Obviously the Ukrainians have paid a very heavy price for the aggression. But we've also been impacted back in the United Kingdom. Our energy bills have gone up . There's sort of hybrid threats from Russia. There are constant examples of them trying to do damage to undersea c ables . And it's in our interest that we rise to that challenge. And so this meeting takes place once a year, but these are countries that we train with, we work with , but particularly in relation to Russia. We are in a period of a war on two fronts, aren't we? Because you're here talking about Ukraine and Russia. Trump, meanwhile, has threatened to unleash hell on Iran after Tehran said it would reject his fifteen point peace plan. You won't know this yet because you've been in meetings, but he's doing a press news conference in the U. S. at the moment. He's just said the U. S. is not sure if it's willing to make a deal anyway with Iran . I mean, we have no idea when this is going to win. Do we? And how damaging that will be to the UK ? Well, you're absolutely right. We're facing a war on two fronts. We've got the Russian invasion of Ukraine going on for, as I say, four years now, and then we've got the Iran conflict both of them very serious , both of them with huge implications and how they end and on what terms could well define us for a generation. So both of them have those sorts of consequences. And that's why it's really important that we approach this with our values and principles. That's what we've applied in Ukraine. And that's what we've applied in Iran. And certainly we're working with others to de escalate the situation in Iran. And just in the last few days, we 've been putting together a sort of coalition, if you like, of countries that are willing to work on how we reopen the straits of Hormuz, which obviously is hugely important for Aragon. You just said that this conflict in Iran could define us for a generation. Unpack that for me, what do you mean? Well the consequences in terms of our economy are already there to be seen. It depends how long it lasts . But if you take the Russian invasion of Ukraine, if that ends on terms advantageous to Russia , that will cause them to think that they can do more of the same in the future. That's a threat across Europe . And if the Iran conflict ends with greater economic harm, then that is going to be impactful. It is already impactful on econom ies across the world. And that is why we need to see this in those terms . They're both serious, they both have serious consequences , and how they end matters to the United States. What are other moments in modern history would you compare that to then? Well, I think , you know , there are various times when the sort of major principles that we've planned have been tested. I'm not sure there's been any time quite like this . But I think for most of our lives, I think in my life I remember profoundly the Berlin Wall coming down and I remember that feeling that there was going to be peace and freedom and that the values that I held dear were the values that were going to sort of be the dominant values, if you like in the world. And I didn't think I have to say that I would ever see Russian tanks going across a European border again in my lifetime. I didn't think I would see that. Yet we saw that four years ago . In the Middle East , Iran is a threat to all of its neighbors, a threat to the world , and therefore how, this ends will determine what that threat is as we go forward . So this is a defining period. It's a testing period for the whole world. And for you because you're the Prime Minister and you've got to try and lead the country through it. Absolutely . And every leader has to rise to whatever the challenges are at the time . What I've done here is to be absolutely clear that I'm the British Prime Min ister and I have to act in the British national interest . And that's really important . And that's why when it came to the Iran war, I've said we're not going to get dragged in because my judgment is that 's not in the interest of our country. You were really rounded for that by quite a lot of people, by President Trump, by some of the newspapers, by reform, by the Tories . Even Tony Blair had an opinion on your decision . People sometimes criticise you for not having strong opinions, but you did on this. Very strong opinion . I looked back the example of the Iraq invasion invasion and learnt the lessons it is not in our interest to join a war like this and I'm not going to do so undoubtedly pressure is being put on me by many quarters , whether that was political leaders in this country before they actually change their mind pretty soon afterwards . Some of the media in this country and others , but I've got to stay focused on what's in the British national interest. It's not in our interest to get dragged in , and it's very important to me that for any UK action, there's got to be a lawful basis, there's got to be a clear and viable plan . And if that isn't the case, we won't get drawn in. On the other hand, of course , when Iran respond ed and there was then a threat to British citizens, British nationals in the Gulf region and to our allies in the Gulf region , I agreed to action in our collective self defense. So that's the divide I've been very clear about no to getting dragged into the war , yes to collective self defence of ourselves and our allies. When you talked about a once in a generation moment , you made me think a bit about Gordon Brown in the financial crisis of two thousand eight when he was prime minister and he was facing a once in a generation moment . He was also facing a leadership crisis and he said now is not the time for a novice. Is that how you feel about this moment in time that you are the right person for the job? Look , that's not for me to say in the sense of whether it's the right time for a novice or not. I'll be judged by what I do , I'll be judged at the next election by what I've done for our country . But I have to say I am totally focused on what is in our best interest and I don't want to get distracted by everything else that is out there that's being said or is being put to me . But I think the point you make about zero eight is really important how we respond to this war on two fronts is hugely important. In zero eight, I feel that Gordon Brown reacted very well . He helped mitigate the damage around the world . But then after the election in twenty ten , two things happened . The coalition government, as it then was, went for austerity , which destroyed our public services and we're living with the consequences. But nothing materially changed . Again, with COVID, which was obviously a great shock to the system , afterwards did, anything mater ially change? Has to be different this time. As we come out of this , the response is going to matter and we have to change the way the country is set up. We have to change anywhere like that. I What mean is that for most people in the country , their living standards haven't gone up since two thousand eight. That is eighteen long years and therefore they're fed up. The cost of living is still the number one issue for people and families across the country . We can't come out of this and say it's business as usual or it's back to the status quo. We have to be prepared to say we need to absolutely go further when it comes to our defence , to our security , to our economy and how it works for people and the whole way that the country is set up, we have to turn this into an opportunity to change our country for the better. Let's get to that and the war and how it's affecting us because you did want this year to be about cutting the cost of living . After a difficult period, you started the year with a chink of light. Inflation was beginning to fall. Interest rates were predicted to come down. You're smiling at me as I say these things and your distant memory of like the sun was only a few weeks ago. Yeah, it was only a few weeks ago and consumer confidence was on the up . And then Trump Trump bombed Ir an. The OEC is doubt forecast the UK will be the worst country hit economically by the war in Iran with a major cut to growth predicted. It's the opposite of what you promise voters . Does it drive you nut s that your whole your whole plan just gets turned on its head by Trump? Well, of course there's a frustration there. At the spring statement, which was only a few weeks ago , we were able to show that inflation was down to three percent and predicted to go down further. Interest rates have been cut six times and predictions they'd go down again. We built up a good headroom so there was the stability . And you know, these aren't just statistics. What that meant is that for families across the country , here's the economy at last stabilized the conditions on which we can then build . And so now a few weeks later , of course there's a frustration that that feels maybe much harder now. Well, I'd say two things about that. Firstly , it is really important to acknowledge that we go into this conflict in a stronger place than we went into the Ukraine conflict in twenty twenty two . Two , that the extent of damage, the extent of the challenge we now face will depend on how long this war goes on . And that's why we've got to de escalate . Am I frustrated that having spent eighteen months getting the economy stabilised and in a better way? Having quite a rough time . Well, of course, but we had to take difficult and hard decisions. Just got peeped to the top of the hill and then Well, what the spring statement showed with inflation as I say in the right place and all the rest of it is that the plan that we had in place was the right plan not withstanding the criticism that everybody puts on it. But now the question is, look , there are these challenges. These are global conflicts and there's no point me sort of complaining about it. That's the world we live in. You've got to face the world as it is . I have to lead us through this war You sometimes don't chill studying quietly swear . Well to you. Well , occasionally, I keep my expletist myself most of the time, although I don't think they even say all of the time. But look, I think if you're the British Prime Minister , it's really important that we approach this with our interest in mind and asking the question how do I come out of this better ? And one of the conditions when we went in, how do we come out of this better ? And these are the challenges of our time. I mean, we've just finished this meeting this evening with the European leaders here by saying we have to recognise that these are the challeng es of our time. We are the leaders of this time and we have to step up and lead when there's a war on two fronts. We have to step up and lead when we need more on defence and security and we have to step up and lead when we know that for millions of households the cost of living is a single most . I cut to the chase on that because energy bills, people are really worried they could rise on average by five hundred pounds after July according to the Resolution Foundation , twenty twenty two, the Trush Government spent forty billion cap in bills for all households. Let's just be clear on this, you are going to rule out universal support, aren't you? It's not what you're going to do . Well, first let me be clear because it's very important I reassure people bills, energy bills for households will go down next week and they will stay down until the end of June. And it's really important I make that. That's the decision we took at the budget , opposed by all the other political parties, but you can now see the worth of it. So because I know people watching this will be worried. So until June bill s down. Now what happens after that will depend on how long the war goes on, what the damage is, which is why de escalation, getting the straits of Hormuz open is really important. But on your point , look, I think we need to try and reduce the cost for everybody , but we don't want to leave anyone behind , but any support is likely to have to be targeted. Now obviously the extent of that, the nature of the package will depend on that's your principle. That's your guiding principle. Some people won't like it, but that's where you're at. Yeah . Lower the cost for everybody . Don't leave any cave that's up, but we will have to tailor the supporting. Exactly how we do that is obviously a number of options we're looking at, but I'll be clear with you, it will be tailored. Yeah, I'm already running out of time. This is terrible. So I'm going to have to I know I'm running out of time as ever. So I'm going to ask you about President Trump. Yes , because you've invested a lot in that relationship , but in recent weeks, he's insulted you, he's demeaned you, he's poked fun at you. You are the prime minister of Great Britain and for many people in the UK, many people listening to this podcast or watching it, insulting you is like insulting our country. Do you understand why some people feel like that . I do. I think it's really important that we see this for what it is. The relationship with the US is a really important relationship. It's been close for a long time on defence, security and intelligence, we're probably one of the two closest countries in the world and that's really important to us. So it's in our interest that we have a good relationship . There's undoubtedly been , you know, some hard decisions over the last few weeks . I have been clear I'm not going to join the war . And there's a clear difference, therefore, of opinion between me and President Trump . My own view is that a lot of what he's said and done has been to put pressure on me to change my mind, but I'm not to do so because I'm the British Prim e Minister and I have to act in the British national interest. And I will always act in the British national interest. Do you think you're underestimated you because you'd been you'd worked really hard at the relationship. I had followed you around. I remember being in the White House and you came out and you were pleased because he'd backed NATO and Article five. He'd signaled he was going to do a good deal for trade . You were really personally proud that you felt like you had found this connection, you tried to accommodate him . Do you think he took that as weakness from you? Well, I wanted a good relationship. I'm not going to pretend otherwise. I still want a good relationship . And as we work our way through this, I'm sure that is possible. But I want to be equally clear. I'm not going to waver on this. I'm not going to back down. I'm absolutely clear about the values and the principles that I'm applying here and anybody who thinks that I'm going to act anything other than the British British National Election. Human is I mean, it must make you bristle. It would make me bristle if someone spoke about me like that. I think I understand what's happening. It's to put pressure on me in different ways , but that pressure isn't going to make me waver. It's not going to make me abandon my principles or values. And that's just the way I am. That is new, that isn't because of President Trump. I've got core values and principles I've held all my life . And they're irreducing you stand up to bullies. You don't like being bull ied, right? And you don't like seeing people bullied. Well, look, I stand up for my principles and my values . And what are they to respect people and not talk down to them? Well, the values here are to act always in the British national interest be really clear that involves not getting dragged into the war and I'm not going to get dragged into the war . And that is the long and the short of it. Do you think he underestimated you? Do you think he thought he had? I don't know I don't know. But it's obvious that you know, from a number of sides there's pressure being applied, but I'm not going to buckle under pressure . And that's okay that's the long and the short of it. And PM, you've got the mayor elections coming up. It could be very bad for labour. You've been here before. Back in twenty twenty one , you had a shocking set of election results. Johnson won the Hartley by elect ion Hartley Pool and you had a major wobble. And you contemplated resigning back then, didn't you? Why was that? Well the Labour Party lost badly a number of times and I wanted to turn it around . And I was therefore concerned that a year afterwards we lost the Hartley Pole by election. In retrospect, I think I had not appreciated it and it is a really important political lesson that when a party loses a general election badly to think that that's the bottom of the curve is a mistake because we were still going down and we did then turn it around and so there is a less on . But look, we have got many elections coming up. They are very much sort of midterm elections. They are very important in the councils and the authorities where they're being fought and in Scotland and in Wales, of course . But look, if you look at history, all incumbent governments pretty well lose you're not going anywhere, are you? Whatever the results, you're not going anywhere. No, I intend to be judged the at next elect ion on what I've delivered for the country . And PM, whether you like it or not, Angela Rona seems to have send me declared in leadership race just like Andy Burnham, is the race effectively on? Well, look, let me say about Angela to start with . She was a fantastic deputy prime minister . I was very proud of the fact that Angela had come from a really challenging starting . She's a deputy prime minister. She's got a lot to offer and I obviously had a conversation with her on the day that she had to resign and I regret that she had to resign. It was the right thing to do, but I regret that she had to do it. And I said to her her contribution to the Labour Government and the Labour Movement was by no means over . And so I do expect to see her playing a leading role in this Labour Government. Okay. Prime Minister, I've got one quick more question which is about Peter Mandelson. When I looked at that vetting document , the continued friendship with Epstein, the sackings from Blair and Brown administrations , I don't get why you put him back into p ost. Surely your instinct was, I don't want this guy near my government. Are you angry at yourself that you maybe didn't follow your instinct? Well , on the back of that due diligence, we questions were put to him , answers were given, which in my view weren't truthful . But if I sit back and answer your question I am frustrated. Nobody has been harder on me in relation to the mistake I made there than me . And I'll tell you for why. I've spent years trying to deal with violence against women and girls . And as I look back at it now and the mistake I make , I've been really hard on myself. In the immediate days after this all came out, I was particularly hard on myself. So yeah, everybody else was criticizing, I guess all that , but nobody was criticizing me more than myself. I'm not trying to make that a mitigation or an excuse, but I know I made a mistake. You can see that you feel that. I know that after nearly twenty years fighting violence against women and girls, I made a mistake there . And I hate the fact I made that mistake and I dwell on it , I beat myself up about it. It's certainly not a mistake I'd ever repeat , but there's no criticism anybody else can level at me that will will be as harsh as the criticism I've dished out for myself. What advice, this final question , what advice would Kir Starmer of march twenty twenty six this moment give to Kir Starmer of twenty twenty four as he contemplated walking through that famous black door. I would say you have to rise to the challenge. You have to realize it's going to be a bumpy road . You can't fix everything as quickly as you think , but you have to be really clear what is it you're trying to achieve . And in the end I will be judged at the next election on whether or not people feel better off , whether they can pay their bills, but not just that, whether they actually feel their life's a bit better, they can do what they want to do with their families, that they don't feel held back in the way that they have done. For far too many years, I understand why people are frustrated . I'll be judged on whether our public services are better. I'm really pleased the health service confidence levels have gone up and I'll be judged by whether people feel more safe and secure. I will also now be judged in the context we're in facing a war on two fronts on how I took our country through that difficult situation and how we emerged afterwards . And I know I'll be judged on that and I go into it with my principles, with my values , which are my irreducible core , and applying those , I hope that people will see that in the end the reason I want that I'm proud and privileged to sit here as Prime Minister is because I want nothing better than to improve this country and to act in our national interest. And that in the end gives me that great determination that I'm not going to be pushed around by other people . I'm not going to be persuaded to do things that I don't think are right for our country . And that is core for me important for me and will help steer our country through this. Okay, Prime Minister, thank you so much for joining us . I really enjoyed that conversation. It was really we should do it again. We'll do it again. We do it again. Thank you very much for your time. Definitely thank you. Thank you . How does a banana trigger a CIA backed coup? Do airpods herald the arrival of a new global order. What do LED lights say about the future of humanity? I'm Ed Conway, and in each episode of my new podcast, Stuff Matters, I take an object, crack it open, and reveal the world shaping forces hidden inside. This is economics told through the things we think we understand. Search Stuff Matters on your podcast app to listen and follow So for me in the room , for me the most powerful bit because I could see the expression on his face and he looked genuinely quite upset and uncomfortable and remorseful was that Mandolson moment where he sort of said how he hated the fact he'd made the appointment that no one had been harder on him than he had himself. You could see someone really genuinely kicking themselves. I mean, cynics will say he's kicking himself because of the problems it's brought, I don't feel in that moment it feels like he's betrayed his own principles or whatever he was feeling . I mean, Harriet, what did you think? I was very struck by it because what he didn't say is, Oh, well, you know, it was a bad decision, but it was because Peter Mandelson lied to me or I take responsibility for it, which usually means you're taking responsibility for a decision somebody else has made. It was very heartfelt. You know, he said he hated the mistake, hated the mistake he'd made, that he dwelt on it. It was obviously still burdening him and that however much other people beat him up on it, he beats himself up more. And the fact that he linked it back to women and girls and somehow letting down women and girls by disregarding them in terms of the abuse of Epstein when he appointed Peter Mandelson. I thought he really owned it and I've been very critical of him on this. But that was good enough for me. I mean, the truth is there's a long way to go on this because he's got to be very open and transparent about the process, but I thought he really owned it. That's interesting because you've been really critical about that. I mean, Ruth , I think you were I think it's fair to say you were quite frustrated by a lot of his answers. Yeah, it was. No, I can't work out with her because yeah, I can't work out whether because it's Harriet is labor and I'm Tory or whether it was because Harriet was watching it and could see him, whereas I could only listen. I was listening across the line. And there's this really famous part of the first presidential debate between Nixon and JFK where they polled people that listened on radio who all thought that Nixon had won the debate and then they polled people that watched on television and they all thought that JFK had won it. So I don't know whether it's 'cause I was listening rather than watching, but I found myself getting hugely frustrated . I thought it was absolutely genuine the Mandelson thing. It's clear he's absolutely kicking himself that he took advice on that and went against his better judgment. But the bit that I was kicking himself on when he was trying to do that framing you were talking about being this wartime leader stand,ing up to Trump, I'm fighting for Britain and all this sort of stuff. And he's talking about the insults where I've got a quote here, they're being done to put pressure on me to change my mind and I'm not going to do that. And I'm kind of shouting, you know, Adam going, you've al ready changed your mind. Like, you've changed your minds on whether the U. S. can use British bases to launch raids on Iran because you said they couldn't and then they could. You've changed your mind whether you're going to send any British warships to the region because you weren't going to and then you had to scramble HMS Dragon. You've changed your mind on whether UK jets were going to join in on any defense of mission. You said they weren't and now they are. You've changed your mind several times and it's okay to change your mind, but you have to tell people why you're doing it and why the conditions have changed. You don't just then say I'm this amazing wartime leader that's never changed my mind under pressure, you know, because people can see the truth. I thought it was very interesting what he said about Trump because he still insisted that the special relationship was important and he wanted to have a good relationship with Trump. But he acknowledged that the reason why President Trump is saying these things and humiliating things and insulting things to him, he said, That is just to put pressure on me. So he acknowledged it was a tactic by Trump to put pressure on him, which is quite a big acknowledgement, although he resisted the suggestion that he might call Trump a bully. But he said, This is trying to put pressure on me. I know what's going on here, but I'm not going to be pressurized. For me , what I think and maybe this is because I'm a bit too up close and I spend every sort of moment watching every twist and turn of the cut Starmer Trump relationship. I think there was a quite a long period and I sort of said it there. Did he underestimate you? Did he think that you trying to accommodate him was weakness because I think there was quite a long time that Trump used to say quite outlandish things. You know, that stuff he said about Sadiq Khan bringing Islamist law to London and stuff that Star would have found absolutely ludicrous but also offensive . And he didn't really go in on Trump. He didn't really stand up and challenge it. He just let a lot of stuff wash over him. So for me for him to kind of stand up in the sense of saying I'm not going to be moved, I'm not going to be pushed around. I know what's going on . I do think it's a bit of a change in position and I do think it's partly because he's probably encouraged by how the public are responding to Trump. But I do take your point, Ruth, that you can make the argument that the fact that he is allowing them to use the bases to try and keep the stra it of Hormuz open , you could see that as a change in position because obviously at the beginning it was only about defensive strikes and trying to take drones and missiles out of the air . I guess he would argue, I suppose , the situation on the ground has changed a bit and it's it's not a U term, but I can see where you're coming from with that, Ruth. I can . But I think that he whilst taking this different position, I think he resisted the temptation to do grandstanding, which I would have found very worrying. He might have been tempted to do that because what I hear from labour colleagues is that the issue of how he 's responded to Trump in relation to the Iran attack has been spontaneously being mentioned on the doorstep and is actually coming over positively. And he didn't take the wrong message from that and overdo it. He still said, Yeah, but we want to be on good terms with Trump. So I think he's calibrated that really well. And I think that was significant. Yes, if you'd have asked him about the different decisions he's made as each day has gone on. Well, obviously they do have to change with the circumstances, but his stance of actually not being in tacking mode, but being in defensive mode and working allies for collective defense. I think he stayed very clear on that and that came through again. I think the other thing that I am taking away from that and I think it will come more into view in the coming weeks is that we are in for quite a big bloody change in this country in the sense that I think that was a prime minister there saying when this is a once in generation moment, comparing it to the financial crisis of zer eighto or the pandemic , I think he's signaling that things because of this war and the knock on effect for energy prices and the global economy, that things are going to change a lot around here . He sort of identified the problem but didn't give any of the, you know, or he identified the illness, but he didn't give any all the symptoms, but he didn't give any of the what would you call the medicines or the all the cures ? But that had sort of flashing lights in my head because I'm thinking what does this mean for energy bills? What does it mean for taxes? What does it mean for debt? What does it mean for public services? And I think that we'll look back on this interview and what he's beginning to say and I think we'll get more of it. See a government pitch roll in quite a difficult period coming up. Is that fair? I saw those flashing lights as well and I think that perhaps is perhaps the most significant thing of what I thought was a really significant interview, Beth. I think he's saying he's not saying we're going to get things back to where they were. He was saying, there's going to be no back to business as usual. And it made me think that he's thinking really big about changes which might well not have been envisaged at the time of the manifesto, perhaps on Europe, perhaps on taxes. And let's see whether we see more along that in terms of fleshing out the details of his thinking on that. You might have heard some background noise because everyone's packing up around me in my new final room. This beats the hotel room, doesn't it, Ruth? It's looking pretty swanky. It's looking pretty posh. Look at me. This is in my ambassadorial lounge . I've got a run , but I will see you all next week. Goodbye. Goodbye, well done, Beth. Bye. But I think your point about the significance, Harry is really a interesting one. And I think that Bet's right that they are going to try and frame this as something akin to the two thousand eight crash or akin to the COVID pandemic globally. And I think what's going to be difficult about that is by saying that Ukraine has been going on for some time and Iran, which they're also trying to ride the horse of we're staying out of. So we're not part of that. We'll support from the sidelines, but we're not going to be part of it in any way. And also, you know, we'll send we'll continue to send arms to Ukraine as we have done over the last four years and we'll continue to train troops, but again, we're not part of it. It's going to be hard to show people in Britain that this is one of these really big disruptive events, especially when if you cast your mind back to the election we just had eighteen months ago , part of the conservative argument of why things have been difficult, why we were trying to restore services that had been disrupted due to the COVID pandemic and Ukraine together, why that had put up house prices, all the rest of it. It was completely poo ppooed by the very same Labour Party that's now the Labour Government that's going to try and say that Ukraine, which was part of the Tory argument, combined with Iran , is one of these disruptive events which allows almost special pleading, if you like for a government and to say that the Tories don't get special pleading for COVID and Ukraine, but labour should get special pleading for Iran and Ukraine, I think is going to be a hard sell. I think it'd be interesting to see where he takes it. I mean, sometimes he's made big statements in the past, like, for example, on identity cards, and then nobody ever heard of it again. So the question is whether or not he said this is a time for really big new thinking and no back to business as usual. We'll have to see where he takes that develops it because he highlighted it, but he as you say, Ruth, he didn't put the chalk marks on the ground and identify or itemise what it is, but he said something very big so actually he will need to have really big ideas to follow that up. Yeah, and I think what's really interesting as well is again when we're on the big themes and certainly the start of the interview I thought was really broadened scope . This idea of talking about you know formative sort of epochs in kind of international relations and changes to the world and he was talking about the fall of the Berlin Wall. And it was huge. I remember it. So I'm a bit younger than Kirstarmer. So the reason that I know the exact date of it was the ninth of November in nineteen eighty nine was because it was the night before my eleventh birthday and my parents let me stay up late to watch what was then the nine o'clock news because the wallet started coming down on the sixth and it continued at the nine and I was allowed to keep watching it and it did feel like the world was changing. But if you look back at that time, if you look at who you think the really substantial figures are there and it was the sort of troika of Reagan and Gorbachev and Thatcher, whether you liked any of them or supported their politics or not , it felt as if they were people that were shaping events . And I'm not sure Kir Starmer has got to the point where it feels like he's one of the people that are shaping events. But I think to be fair, he wasn't saying I'm going to reshape the world after this. He was saying things have got to be changed back home after this. You're right, that's fair. He was talking about structural changes to the way Britain operates and how things work, public services work, the economy works, defence works. But I think if we see this as future framing from the government about serious time calling for serious people, it be' interestlling to see how that develops. She also asked him about what's going to happen with the rising cost of energy bills following the Iran conflict . And I thought it was quite interesting what he said about that because he said the government would help everybody trying to keep the cost of energy down, but there would be targeted help obviously on those who need it most. And he said there's a number of options we're thinking about Well, I'm hoping they don't just think about them in number ten or between number ten and number eleven of the Treasury , that they actually have a really big discussion and a consultation because what went wrong with the cuts in the winter fuel allowance was not ending the principle of means testing, but it was actually setting the cliff edge at the wrong point . So I think they've got the time now before the end of June when the price cap runs out to actually consult about where they set the targeted help. I think the country's ready for a big broad debate about what should help , benefits, services , all the rest of it should be universal and what should be targeted. And I think what would be really interesting was if the Prime Minister felt confident if that's his view, that we should be far more targeted and we should abandon in some areas where it has been the norm in the past. We should abandon universalism. It would be interesting to see him making the running on that and laying out the ideological grounds for it as well as the specific policies for it. It'll be really interesting to see if they've got the confidence and the bandwidth to actually start that debate . Especially when they're going to be and already are being criticised by reform and by Kemi Badnock who are saying, Well, the only reason you're going to need to target it is because you're spending too much money on benefits. And actually, this will just be a boost to people on benefits and you won't be helping hard working people, which of course overlooks the fact that a lot of people who are on benefits are actually working as well. But I think that they need to use all the time between now and when the price cap ends at the end of June to explain why they need to target it rather than do it universally and explain where they're going to do the cutoff.