The Future of the Labour Government

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Sky News the full story first he lacks and his operation lack the drive to get anything done with the gusto that is needed pick your metaphor the damas burst the horse is bolted the genies out of the bottle i mean something the prime minister's team have done an amazing job of making this somehow West Streeting spot . Hello and welcome to Electoral Dysfunction with me, Beth Rigby. Me Ruth Davidson and me Harriet Harmon. Now it's been a mega week in politics, a mega week for memes. I have to say how much joy it's brought me seeing all the edits online of me being tethered to my broadcasting spot with a microphone, which stopped me interviewing James Murray outside Downing Street. I spilt two coffees over the pavement, and I became a comedy character in the thick of it. I didn't mean to, it wasn't intentional. Karen messaged the burner phone, likening the mic to a cattle prod. We had a WhatsApp from Joseph saying I was serving high camp. I quite liked that one actually. And then Lottie Lottie made a Beth Rigby megami x uh of me in all political crises, like being a dick at Downing Street. So thank you all for that.. Thank you Can I just say I think it's a miracle that you've still got your voice and are able to speak to us today? Because I mean, there's so much news, there's like a surfeit of news. I've decided that there has been so much news that it's time for me to set a timetable for my succession because I can't take any more. Are we gonna have to put your name forward to the Chiltern Hundreds? Are you standing there? Absolutely not. I've got a list of loyalists wanted me to stay on but, I don't know if I can command uh any more energy in myself to carry on, to be honest. It's your duty to the sisterhood and the political journalist world that you absolutely do, I'm afraid, Beth. No way out. No way out. Well, I have to say, talking about the sisterhood and indeed all of our dysfunctioners that have been listening to us over the years, got a bit of a throwback 'cause you've got an exclusive interview with uh Jess Phillips that we're gonna listen to later in the show. Yes. But so much news has happened. We've got to actually tell you a bit about what's been going on the last couple of days. And by the time you listen to this, you know what, it might have moved on again. But Beth, come on, lead us through. We're recording on Thursday evening. Lead us through what on earth has been going on because it has been a frenzy of activity. I I can't really put into words how intense it has been over the past forty-eight hours. We had that cabinet meeting that we talked about on the extra podcast episode. We had the resignation of Jess Phillips and some other ministers. We then had the hiatus of the King's speech. But even as the King's speech was being read out by the King in the House of Lords, and this is setting out the government's uh agenda for the next session of Parliament, I was getting wind, as were other journalists, that Wes Street and was preparing to resign. He'd been into number ten on Wednesday morning. He was in there for all of sixteen uh minutes. Uh they were describing it on one hand uh as the show down or talks. Uh the PMs lot was saying he's just having a coffee, and then I was like, Well, he's definitely had either a single espresso on the basis of that timing of that meeting, or maybe he had a very cold iced latte, because I think it was pretty uh frosty. Then we started reporting in the middle of the king's speech that he was going to resign. Last night it was just fever pitch uh level of gossiping in Westminster about was going to resign, did he have the numbers, government figures uh and supporters of Starmer saying he didn't, what is allies saying he did? Uh then someone messaged me and said, make sure you're awake at six AM. I was like, why would I want to be at Wake Six A. Well, that's because there was a big ginger bombshell dropped at six AM. Yeah, there was a big Angela Rayner bombshell. She did an interview with ITV and The Guardian, uh saying that she had been cleared of wrongdoing with her HMRC tax investig ation. So she sort of got that out in the morning news, paving the way, potentially I suppose, to run if uh duty called. We then all sat around waiting for wares. I at one point went to the Commons and there's a s there's a corridor behind the speaker's chair. Harriet you will know it very well. It's the Speaker's Corridor and it's where all the ministers, the Cabinet uh have offices, and the Prime Minister has his office. And word reached me that Keir Starn was in his office, so I sort of wandered up the corridor, get sent back again, wandered up again. Then I got wind that something might be coming at one o'clock, legged it back to the office and Hay Presto West Street in resigned. So we did that on television, uh a very long uh letter saying uh that there was no vision. I mean there was a great line in Wes's letter which says where there should be vision there is a vacuum. That's it. It's like oh it was devastating and then he kind of went through all of his sort of gripes with the PM, particularly every time something bad happens, somebody else has to fall on their sword. Basically saying you don't take responsibility. Oofed. So we did that and then I interviewed Jess Phillips exclusively for the electrical dysfunction pod. That was her first interview since she resigned on Tuesday. And we had a very interesting discussion about Keir Starmer. She was quite upset in the interview actually. She looked troubled. And then I finished that interview and then I got wind that I also needed to get back on telly for 5 pm because something else might be happening. And then at 5 p.m., Josh Simons,, uh the MP for Makerfield, which is a place near Wigan in the north, he announced that he was going to give up his seat in order to let Andy Burnham run for Parliament, and it is just absolutely batshit nuts to be honest. It is all going off. Harriet. Mr. It's just incredibly worrying having fought for fourteen years to get into government and here we are in a situation where I think all Labor people can agree on what the problem is, but there just doesn't seem to be any agreement on the solution . Some people think don't risk the turmoil of a Labour leadership. The people have actually elected Keir Starmer, even though so many of them don't like him now. But that is our system. At least they know how he got to be Prime Minister and they had a part in being able to choose him. Then there was some people, but it seems like quite a few ultimately in the Parliamentary Labour Party who wanted West Streeting to replace Keirstarmer and clearly West Streeting himself was one of those people who wanted himself to replace Kirs Darma. Oh you're you're such a master of the understatement, Harriet. I mean he's been preening himself for this for months practically But that didn't m materialise and clearly he couldn't get enough support in the PLP to mounted challenge. And then there was people from the left of the party who were like, No, no, no, we can't have a leadership election now because we are missing the prince across the water, which is Andy Burnham. Fast forward to where we are today, whereby Josh Simons, who's actually an ally of Keir Star mer and part of the Labour Together Morgan McSweeney side of things says he's going to stand down in his constituency of Makerfield for Andy Burnham. And the thing about that is that Andy Burnham, you remember, was turned down to be Labour's candidate in Gorton and Denton. And the result was the Greens won. We've since had the council elections, and in Makerfield, every single Labour councillor lost out to reform. So reform now would think this is a reform seat. But the Labour people in Makerfield tell me that actually Andy Burnham would win. And therefore the NEC's choice is much more difficult now because if they block Andy Burnham, then it might be handing the seat to reform. But if they let Andy Burnham come in, he is clearly coming in to be a challenger to Keir Starmer. And he said that in his tweet. What he said was: this is why I now seek people's support to return to Parliament to bring the change we have brought to Greater Manchester to the whole of the UK and make politics possible Can I can I ask you two things following on from that, Heron? The two things that strike me, and I asked Pat McFadden, who's the work and pension secretary and is trying to shore up Star mer. Number one, isn't it too far gone for Keir Starmer now that as much as he wants to carry on as Prime Minister and he doesn't want to have a challenge, he's got West Street in uh resigned and waiting, Andy Burnham is demanding to come back and he's found a route to at least try to come back. I just think that the events are piling up that mean that Keir Starmer is not going to be able to stop this, he's not gonna be able to hold the line. What do you think? 'Cause kinda how I feel, but I'd like to hear what you think and whether you think I'm right or not. I genuinely don't think it's too far gone for Keir Starmer if he does what he says he's going to do, which is really turbocharged change. And as far as people in this country is concerned, they want the changes that he offered. It's not that they don't like his agenda, it's just they think he hasn't delivered on it. It's because people are struggling. If everybody was like happy that their cost of living was going up, they wouldn't be complaining about Keir Star mer. It's because of their objective circumstances. Harriet, I I honestly I I don't think you just realize the point that you've made there, which is the point that lots of people who are resigning are making. When you said that people out there like his agenda, they just think he hasn't delivered on it. That's the whole point. They think the blockage is himed. He's not, you know, bringing the country with him. He's got no vision. You know, so so if somebody else comes in and enacts a a the Labour Party manifesto that you've just said the agenda isn't the problem, it's the it's the fact it's not getting delivered. Isn't that the whole point? Isn't that what all of the people on the other side of this within the Labour Party are telling you? I think it's beyond his control. And the reason I say that is I don't think that he can block Andy Burnham trying to fight that seat. I think if that happens there will be a mutiny in the party. It just I just don't think he can block Burnham. I'm not saying Burnham will win the seat. I'm just saying I don't think he can block him. I don't think the NEC, the National Executive Committee, the Governing Party, I don't think they can stop Burnham trying to come back to Parliament. Well I think the stakes are h igher because if the seat was then lost to reform, because the NEC on Keir Starmer's instructions had blocked Burnham from standing when Burnham could clearly have won the seat, then that makes it very No, I said no, I said the stakes are higher because a lot of the MPs um who are expressing their you know their lack of confidence in Keir Star mer. They don't necessarily want Andy Burnham. And that's why this has been such a fractious and difficult thing, because everybody in the Parliament ary Labour Party is desperately concerned about reform and desperately concerned about the standing of the government, but they do not agree what the solution is. But I do have to say that somebody said to me, who listens to the pod and M P, the the velocity rate in the corridors now is zero miles an hour. Literally. Nobody is moving. They're all just speaking to each other. And that is just so bad for government because ministers need to be getting on with delivering. Nobody in the public wants to see everybody just having a constitutional and inward looking frenzy. But the thing is is whatever Starmer would want to happen, whatever those cabinet ministers saying that everyone should hold the line, the political reality of this now is you've got Wes Streetin that's resigned and said, I'm saying what a lot of people are thinking, you cannot command the confidence of this parliamentary party or the trade unions back in Labour actually as well. You will not be the Prime Minister into this general election. We need a debate about succession. Wes says that, Wes Streetin says that, and four hours later, Burnham says, I'm coming back. I just think this is the firing gun on a leadership race. And it it looks to me like it is gonna happen uh one way or another, whether Starmer wants it or not I mean, Beth, uh pick your metaphor. The damas burst, the hor horse is bolted, the genie's out of the boat. Something that cannot be a little bit . Yeah, give me some more. I've got more than a life blown, tectonic plates are moving, you know. But it genuinely is. I mean, there is a sense of all of these loyal cabinet ministers that are being put on the television to stand there and go, Yeah, the Prime Minister is trying to get on with the job and that's what he's doing. It is a little bit chemical alley, like from the Iraq War, you know, where you had like the spokesman of of the Iraqi government standing in front of like a burning town with sort of British and US tanks going on behind him saying there's nothing to see here, we've not been invaded, we're still in control. That's exactly what it feels like. There's no route for Andy Burnham to take the crown that doesn't run through Keir Starmer, either enabling it or giving him permission because it's not just that the NEC, which the National Executive Committee has to let him stand in the by-election, it's that a writ has to be moved in parliament and the Prime Minister and the Chief Whip they make that decision. And that can be months. I myself stood in a by-election that lasted for five months. And you've also got the idea that he might not win a by-election. And if he does win a by-election, he might lose the mayoralty because he'll have to give up his mayoralty. And then if Labour lose that in the middle of a of an election for the leadership, you know, he sacrificed the whole northwest of the country for his own personal ambition. It looks terrible. And, you know, this is one of the things that when you interviewed Jess Phillips, Beth, it's what she raised this idea that Andy Burnham has a harder road here than all of these armchair generals that are saying, Oh well, now he's running, he's he's got it in the bag, he's gonna win. Because there's a lot and of twists and turns before you can you can even say that he's actually even probably the front runner yet. Let's get into that because I've just spoken exclusively to Jess Phillips. She was remember of this pod before she went into government. It's the first time we've seen you uh since you resigned from government on Tuesday. Uh you resigned as the safeguarding minister and as I said this is the first time you've publicly spoken. Why did you resign? A number of reasons, really. Um I felt very strongly after the local elections, um, which you know have left my city completely and utterly divided between r reform and then a sort of rainbow coalition of um uh of left wing uh left leaning if you will uh parties um and frankly in a mess um I felt the same way that everybody felt uh the sort of like I knew this was coming sort of thing but when you when your face actually hits the pavement it is quite a different uh emotion. I also felt that all of my colleagues coming out and saying as they did it in that moment, lots and lots of younger colleagues, lots of uh backbenchers coming out and saying uh um that the Prime Minister , you know, wasn't capable of the bold change. And I just reflected on my time uh in government um and how I have been very, very annoyed at many points about only like be being made to feel grateful for incremental change, I suppose. And then the Prime Minister made a speech about how, you know, he won't just stand for incremental change. And it just didn't ring true to me from my experience of dealing with the number 10 operation and him. And look, I think Kirstar was a good man and I I've enjoyed working with him. This is not in any way personal um but like my own experiences charmed with the country's experiences and I often think if you think it and your constituents think it you're on a hide in to nothing ignoring it. Also, never waste a crisis. Somebody w referred to me this week as just never waste a crisis Phillips. Um I will never waste a crisis to push for an argument on violence against women and girls and I saw an opportunity to do that uh in resigning as well. But I couldn't let my colleagues go over the hill and not give them some cover. It's genuinely how I felt. I felt like good one of my colleagues who I love very dearly and I she can speak for herself so will remain nameless. She rang me up and she said, Oh well what are you gonna do then? Because I know you think this, I know you feel the same way as me, what are you gonna do? And you know, courage calls to courage everywhere, I suppose. Suffrage that's that . Indeed. Suffragists, I think. Suffragist. Suffragist. You just said Starmer's a good man, but you also said and you said that in the letter, your letter, but you also said he doesn't have the drive the fight. You said have a row, push back, make arguments, bring people along. Standing up and being counted can't always be workshopped. Politics is as much about feelings as policy, especially at the moment. Do you think he's just too robotic, he can't connect, he ha he doesn't bring passion. What what were you getting out there? Look uh look, I mean uh his his comms style is of little interest to me actually if you are decisive and you go out and make big arguments. It doesn't matter if you're a you know like you're not like we don't all have to it's not strictly come dancing as somebody I think said yesterday. I think it was Kemi Badenok, in fact. You don't have to be glitzy . You have to be decisive. You have to be certain. You have to be driving at something . And we live in very, very, very polit ically like, you know, tempestuous times. And I think you've got to have a route. And look, what I had seen in government was all be careful you don't upset these people, what about this lobby? What about this? And I'm just like, make an argument and people will follow. Mm-mm. You actually said in your resignation item said you explicitly criticized the Prime Minister for not blocking children being able to take naked images of themselves. You said because we dilly-dallied and worried about tech bosses. Was that the straw that broke the camel's back for you? The technology exists and actually it's already on most of uh lots of this is already on uh our phones, uh nudity blockers that would stop children being able to take naked images. Now, if anyone in the country had seen what I have seen whilst doing my job. You you wouldn't wait for a second. I have seen some of the most horrendous things, children being live cam med using sex aids on themselves . 91%, as I say in my letter, of the child abuse imagery that was found by the Internet Watch Foundation and reported to the police last year, 91%, so nearly all child sex abuse imagery was self-made by children on their own phones. I have absolutely no idea why it would take anyone a year to be convinced of the argument to do something about that. I have worked incredibly hard and there is amazing people in the civil service and some pretty amazing people actually um within Whitehall working on this to get this over the line. And we were like, oh I was told it'd be announced in March then it was like oh it'll be in June or when we can get a grid slot and then when he made a speech about how I won't accept incremental change I just thought, my God it,'s taken me a year to get somebody to the point of saying we'll ask the tech companies nicely. And it just felt like the very definition of incremental change to me. Do you think he just doesn't get it? he W sahenys that he doesn't really get it. I think he's with me on the substantive. That's of no question whatsoever. He wants to end child abuse like that should not that is not in question at all . What I think that he um lacks and his operation lacks is the drive to get anything done with the gusto that is needed in a time like it's it's like a um we run an analogue government in a digital world. And you think he was he was worried about tax bosses? Hundred percent. Yeah, I don't know whether he was, but some of the people who were around him definitely were. Definitely, definitely were. You know, why on earth wouldn't you have used the opportunity on Monday, for example, to like ad like advance the policy on social media Do you want him to come out on Monday and just say I tell you what it's a bold policy, I'm gonna ban social media for under sixteens, for example. Is that the sort of bold ly have that would likely have kept me in the tent. Right, okay. I'll be honest. Really? That would likely have kept me kept me in the tent because it would have been something actually different. Yeah. You know. We re-announced some things that we've said before. I just wanted to hear more. But he that would have kept me in the tent a hundred percent. You watched that speech, you're like enough's enough. I cannot bear it anymore. This incremental change. He says we've got to do di things differently, but it's all as you put it in your to quote another suffragist is that the word you do ? Deeds not words. Suffragist is deeds not words. Suffragist is courage But the deeds deeds not words . Other people have stayed in the tent, are staying in the tent. What do you say to those colleagues? Look, people will make decisions on what they think is best for the country. Um look, I've got enough respect for my colleagues to think that they're making those decisions on the basis of what they think is best and good faith. But like I think that there's lots of people not saying uh how they feel out loud. I I think that people are worried about the process and all of that and I get all of that but for me I just yeah like I I I I find that very, very difficult. The collective responsibility of not being able to say I don't think I was ever um expected not to say that I wanted social media banned to be fair. I think that I I was perfectly uh able to say uh that I think I once said on loose women that we should switch the internet off. So, you know, I was no stranger. Let's go back to the olden days. Apart from vintage, I want a vintage car boat. But yeah, look I think people are all making their decisions on the basis of what they think is right. But like I I uh for me it was never gonna be enough. And and Jess, did you did you speak to the PM before you put out that letter? No, I didn't I didn't I didn't speak to the Prime Minister before I put out the letter but um and what I would say is that I'm uh I I'm not sure it would have made any difference um uh at all uh because yeah I think it it if it finds it quite hard to listen. Unless there's a crisis. Okay. Like I know the other thing I wrote in my letter and I can see it in the number ten operation today and yesterday is that they fight back and they run up really good operation when there's a crisis and I saw that over Mandelson. I only managed to like, you know, really pushing on violence against women and girls, always relied on there being a crisis that we had to get ourselves out of. Right. And that I can't sit around and wait for a crisis, but I can see that their their operation is quite slick at the moment because they're in a crisis and they're trying to protect him. And talking about a crisis, he had another crisis today because Wes Street and resigned as health secret ary . What did you think of that? I mean, you are a friend of Wes, you're presumably back in here, and were you what was your reaction to that happening? I think it was Brave uh that Wes um resigned today and I know like you know as somebody who uh has uh resigned twice now . Tom Watson says it gets easier every time you do it. But um it it will have weighed on on a complete with a completely heavy heart. But if you think it, if you think that that you you don't have faith in the Prime Minister and you've said it to his face, I think it's very, very hard to say, isn't stay then, isn't it? Some of your colleagues think it's really destabilizing and that Wes has tried to coordinate a string of resignations, including yours. What what do you say to your colleagues that sort of would accuse Wes Street and of plotting and you guys trying to force the issue. What what would you say to that, Jess? There's a couple of things I suppose I would say to that. Is that the idea that all of my colleagues aren't plotting is for the is for the birds. I'm just like like you know it's politics guys um like like every every camp is plotting so should we just pretend should we just stop pretending? Um uh and the idea like the idea that I uh I I have written so many resignation letters since I have been in the job. The idea that I did it because Wes Streeting wanted me to do it is uh I mean I literally have a mug in the home office that my uh private office bought for me that said I didn't quit my job today. Um because, you know, I've I have found it quite challenging uh for quite some time. Just think it's absolut ely crazy the idea that the thing that is destabilizing isn't after the local election results that we just have. Somehow the Prime Minister's team have done an amazing job of making su this somehow West Streeting spot . Take some responsibility. We're destabilized because of uh of the situation that we found ourselves in. Um and uh an unpopular prime minister who who people like you know feel is o only able to have incremental change. Like that like you know you can support Keir Starmer and I think he's a nice man and all of that. But the idea that that the destabilisation started with West Streeting, I think, uh or anyone else, or Angela Rayner or or Andy Burnham, that we would have absolutely no problems in the Labour Party if it weren't for uh if it weren't for them. I just it doesn't ring true. Are you worried that Keir Starm of staying in post is going to hand the country to reform? Of course that like that that is what worries me. Like as Wes in fact said in his letter, the sort of nationalism taking over the country, that that's a worry to me. Uh and I worry that at the moment that is the trajectory that we are on. Um and like I say it's not personal about Keir Starmer. I have absolutely no problem in him. I am I am worried about the prospects of what is gonna happen to our country. And Jess, y w West Street and resigned, but in his letter he makes it clear that he's not going to uh trigger a leadership uh contest, he's not challenging the leadership. Number one, does Wes Street and do you think have the numbers, or do you think he doesn't, and that's why he's not challenging now? And how long do you think it's gonna rumble on for? Because we're in total limbo now, right? Look, nobody has the numbers in politics until they have the numbers. I will tell you from bitter experience that a canvas does not always return the electoral result that you thought it was going to uh I won't swear here, Beth, but my father always uh used to say the trouble is when door knocking is people lie . Um he said it in a much slightly more sweary way. Um but like so look you nobody has uh uh the numbers until the contest is called but I think that uh yeah, it seems like it's gonna rumble on, doesn't it? It seems like that's the outcome that is uh but it's not on West Streeting, it's not on anyone el Do you think the the PM should set out this timetable now then? I mean is that where you're or or do you think it's inevitable that he 's gonna have to, whether he wants to or not? It's not for me to give advice to the Prime Minister necessarily. It's certainly not anymore. I'm not part of his government. Um I I I think he has to really, really ask himself is he the person who can who we who will win the next general election and that can really really deliver in the meantime exactly what this country needs because what we have been offering uh is clearly not it's not being felt on the ground. And we have done some amazing things. Like, you know, I I I don't underestimate that, but all anyone can remember Would you have liked West Street and to have triggered the race? It's very easy to say from the comfort of my home in Birmingham that I would like somebody to do something. Um I would I would much rather this uh was dealt with quicker, but I don't think that's West Streeting's responsibility. I think it's the Prime Minister's. Right, okay. And just in terms of West Streeting, obviously if a leadership race does start you would presumably back Wes Street in, right ? Yeah, it depends on all the candidates, I suppose. It's funny because uh yeah of course I mean look Wes is both a brilliant politician and he's one of my best friends. It would be remiss of the I'd just be lying if I said anything else. Although can I just say, can I just say I've got a huge amount of respect for people like Angela Rayner. And you know what? Also massive soft spot for Ed Millerband uh as well. Um so it's what do you think of Andy ? Well, Andy isn't a member of Parliament at the moment, is uh my view on that. Uh and look, I think you know, Andy Burnham used to work with my mum and so uh did he uh my late yeah my late mother um and uh and so yeah yeah and he gets it he gets a bit like misty eyed when he talks to me about her. And so look, I have a huge amount of kindness for Andy Vernum. But what I would also say is that like just be really, really careful of of um looking like it entitled . It looked like you know, it look it it there's a sort of level of uh in entitlement that I I feel like I'll just have XY's the Z seat. I don't know, I'm really rooted in the place where I represent maybe uh and so I I always think that there it doesn't look great playing a sort of game of thrones. Yeah I mean you think the king of the north playing a game of thrones, I see what you did there. Did you mean to? I I I I sort of didn't mean to, but maybe to use John Snow, yeah. But the point the point is y I mean it was interesting 'cause Harriet Harmon said to us on the the pod other week, she thought that Andy should be brought back. I think what you're saying is actually the Labour Party trying to set out a timetable to sort of allow someone to get a seat to come back, you don't think necessarily is the right thing to do. Look, if Andy Burnham can make it back and can win the argument and can win people like me over, then I'm totally here for it. That's not particularly in question. What I what I'd say is that like yeah it just to be really, really careful that we don't that like that he doesn't and and maybe this is some advice to him, come across as a bit entitled. Right. Like, you know, like the c the competition's only legitimate if I'm part of it. It's just sort of like well, you know, like I really, really like David Attenborough . Do you know? Is that your now that's the news like Phillips endorses David Attenborough' thes next Labour leader. I think we should win by a lamp line. I mean he literally would win 90% of the country's votes straight off. But do I think he should be blocked and or all of that or or whatever. Like to be perfectly honest, it's sort of like I'm not really that interested in that particular argument. But I I just think you just have to be careful not to look entitled. Well one more thing, Jess. The PM's argument and you know it and his allies are uh this is leadership battle would plunge the UK into chaos, now's not the time to put economic stability at risk. Are you worried about this leadership crisis , how it reflects on the Labour Party and the government and that it's gifting something to your opponents? I think if it drags on for ages then it potentially does uh you know it, does harm. And once again, I say that it is in the gift of the Prime Minister, isn't it, to deal with it? So and like I'm not his opponent. I just didn't want I I I like I have said my opinion about uh Keir Starmer. But it's only other camps that they're saying that about. Also this idea and I have to say I I'm going to debunk this slightly, uh this idea that there will be loads of delay in being able to do policy if we have a leadership election. I I you know, I've known policies about launching really important things delayed by the grid. So the idea that Westminster acts in lightning speed at normal times, I've got to say, does not ring true to me. So look, politics isn't easy. Sometimes you have to go through difficult things to get a better result. That's that's just the top and bottom of it for me. But look, like I am loyal to um the the government in the sense that like whatever gets decided, I will put my shoulder to the wheel. It doesn't matter about the personality of the person. at the top What matters is that we are decisively taking arguments out to the country and winning them. And just finally then, Jess, whatever happens in the coming weeks, and I don't think any of us know what will happen. W youhat're clear about is that Keir Starmer can't really in the long term continue as PM and he's either going to get forced out by the party or he could just in your view do what's right and and and sort of call it a day, that's kind of where you're at . Yeah, I mean that is uh fundamentally uh where I am at. Um I think that uh you know it's it's not been a a success and like and I don't think that's malice on anybody's part, but we have lurched from crisis to crisis and they only ever sort of seem to pick up their game when there is a crisis going on. And that seems like you know, I just that't doesn seem very tenable for very long. Okay. Until like the next crisis. I mean we've still got them like loads of the Mandelson stuff to still like, you know, be released and things. It's just like what next? All right, we'll just look thank you so much for coming and talking to us. Uh we really appreciate it. Thank you. Chase is the digital bank that gives your savings a boost anytime, anywhere. Even when I'm on a work call. You bet. You could earn 4.5% AER variable, including a 2.25% AER fixed boost for 12 months. Right now with Chase, you could be boosting your way to our dream holiday. Exactly. Search Chase Boosted Saver. 18 plus UK residents available to new Chase current account customers for their first 31 days, 4.41% gross. Interest paid monthly eligibility and terms apply. I'm Sam Coates from Sky News. And I'm Anne McElvoy from Politico. Downing Street Drama, leadership battles and policy U-turns. We're on it before it breaks. We take you straight into the rooms where the real political conversations are happening. Smart Insight, clear analysis in your feeds by 7.45am . So you start your morning fully brief for the day ahead in British politics. Hit follow and listen to politics at Salmon Anne's wherever you get your podcasts . Okay, so so look we're back and and that was Jess uh Phillips there. I think it's probably been quite an emotional few days for her as it has been I think for lots of Labour MPs and I think taking the decision to stand down from government calling out your Prime Minister, uh these sorts of things. I imagine it's quite tough. Harriet, I imagine that you don't, given what you've said earlier, necessarily agree with Jesse's interpretation uh of the Prime Minister's leadership. Uh what did you make of when she said he lacks drive to get anything done? Did you think that was a bit unfair or what what's your experience? Well, just first and foremost, I felt it so grievously that Jess felt she had to res ign. She was seen to be, because she always had been, an absolute champion in the cause of tackling male violence against women and girls. And so she's such a loss to the government with her absolute drive and commitment. But you could you could hear what she was saying there. She just felt at the end of her tether and frustrated. The truth is, it is really hard to make change in government , but she obviously just didn't feel that she had the impetus of the Prime Minister behind her. But she made a very specific proposal in her resignation letter about child pornography being made by children and that there is a way of dealing with that. And I hope that her legacy will be that Kia Starmer will read that letter and jump on it and actually say, Well, you know, I'm disappointed to lose her, but she was complet ely right on that and we're gonna do it. I I think what really struck me was the fact that given the crisis that the Prime Minister's in, she could have exerted enormous influence if she'd spoken to number 10 and said, I'm going to resign unless you announce. But she's obviously completely lost faith with the idea that they can do anything because of that paralysis that we talked about. Something that struck me in the interview when we talked about the PM speech on Monday and, we talked about how he talked about needing to be uh change and have an urgency. The thing that was interesting about what Jess was talking about was her frustration listening to that speech, and she's like, I know some things that you could you could announce. And she talked about the under 16 media ban. And you could s feel her frustration and and that that example that she put in her letter about the the the underage uh nudes uh kids you can put software in to prevent underage uh children uh taking photos of news. And she said, you know, uh people around the PM were always worried about the tech giants, and I felt in the interview the frustration. And also what struck me when she was talking, coming back to what you said, Ruth, was it was like that moment, that make or break speech on Monday . If he'd just done some more properly bold announcements and taken some bold decisions, maybe he could have got some of his MPs to believe because what someone said to me earlier was that he'd been having people into his study, ministers, and he was saying, please bat me, it will bring chaos. But that someone said to me, all they were thinking about was managing the crisis. He wasn't sort of inspiring them about his leadership. And that's kind of what she was getting at, don't you think, Ruth? Yeah, and he wasn't even asking them, and and what is it that you you know, if there's a sense within the parliamentary party that I've not responded to that we need to go faster and be bolder in certain areas. Which areas that you want to talk about? What do you what is it that you want this government to do? But again, part of the problem with that speech, and I think Jess did slightly sort of nail it when she she put in her resignation letter was like your team around you bigged up that this was going to be yet another big reset speech. It was going to be truly radical, just like you said that the king's speech was going to be radical, and there was nothing in there that we hadn't heard before. Where was the big idea? She wasn't even asking necessarily for the world to be changed. She was just like, Can you just pick a fight with someone? Yeah. And then on streeting, she sort of made the point: look, the instability didn't start with Wes Street in. The instability started with some of the mistakes the government made, a terrible set of election results. And now kind of people like Jess or where's a getting smashed up for you know reacting when actually it goes back to the Prime Minister and I think I mean did what did you think of that Harriet? I said and we were discussing this on the on the pod that we recorded on Tuesday, that the problem has not been caused by the instability. The instability is a result of the problem of people feeling that they are struggling in their lives and feeling that they can't see a vision of hope for the future from the Prime Minister. And that is what the Prime Minister has got to fix. And that's what has caused the instability. Harriet, can we just step back for a sec? Because I feel like I have been in like this what this maelstrom, this whirlwind of news. I don't know where I'm coming. I don't know if I'm coming or going. I'm kind of working, I'm going to bed and I'm coming back and it's just like it's a rolling crisis . But if you take a just a step back and you look at this, Harriet, can you believe that this is even happening? You are less than two years in to a Labour government that won a massive majority nearly as big as the Blair majorities of the new Labour years, you know, when he f the 97 landslide. I mean, can you actually believe it's happening, Harriet, for your party? It's horrific. And clearly it's been acknowledged that some of the problem that we're in now is down to Keir not having delivered fast enough and not given a vision. But it's worth remembering that he he has inherited a situation that I can't think that any other Prime Minister has inherited before, not just very difficult economic circumstances, but also global problems, which are absolutely stuffing our economy. And also, this problem that I've got, this problem that I keep highlighting is he's got an unvanquished opposition. Always in the past, when a new Primeister Min has taken over, nobody wants to hear from the opposition, they're vanquished, they've been chucked out. Why should anybody listen to them? They're not a viable alternative government. They were just in government and they've been got rid of. Keir Starmer from the moment he set foot in Downing Street, he faced the unvanquished opposition, which was reform. If he only had to face Kemi Baden ok, he would be looking marvellously prime ministerial. But because he's got No, I don't know. She pretty much filleted him this week. But right from the moment I'm saying, Ruth, that he got in, he's faced this insurgent surging uh phenomenon of farage. Okay, and Ruth, uh 'cause I keep when Harriet just said that, um I sort of think about what we were talking about maybe at the beginning of the year a few months ago where you thought Kemi Badenock uh would be a goner, but I don't think that you predicted. I don't think that any of us predicted that Starmer would face a leadership challenge potentially. I mean what do you think? I I take Harriet's point about there being a third force here and that third force is Farage. But I only take it up to a point because he had every advantage when he first became Prime Minister, and the Labour Party had every advantage. They had an enormous majority. They had uh they had broken the Conservative Party in terms of it was a rump of what it had previous ly been. I think Kirstarmer's fundamental problem is he came in with this enormous majority, looking like the world had fallen in, talked Britain down, said everything was terrible. It was gonna take him years to ever fix anything in Britain. And actually people didn't want to hear it. They wanted hope. And he didn't deliver change either. And that's what's come and bit him in the backside. That's all we have time for, but we should say that we've had the podcast crossover of the century this week. Beth, you've had a mega fan in the form of Jordan North. For anyone in electoral dysfunctions audience who doesn't know, Jordan is co- host of the hilarious Help I Sexted My Boss podcast. And we have the clip. Again, I won't hear a bad word said about uh Beth Rigby. You got any answers to the questions, poor minister? She's constantly heckling. That is an elected representative of the people, as opposed to a member of the royal family. Are you gonna we're just Are you gonna we're in poor minister? Beth with your Bob. Calm down. I love her, by the way. She's my favourite political. I've got quite a few political correspondents that I like. Okay. Give us your top three. Okay. Uh easily, right? I'm gonna say Beth Rigby. Lovely. Chris Mason. Okay. Joe Pike, but Beth Rigby something about her. Okay . It's the Bob. When Beth Rigby interviews Rachel Reeves, you can't tell difference. Yeah, it's Bob on Bob. It's great.