Podcast Club and Future Announcements

Sky News, The full story first I don't know much about him, but I know that I don't like him I do think that this will hasten the potential departure of Kirara You know, deffense is important. You've got to find the money, you've got to bounce the bucks to be able to invest in the right things that the right Hello and welcome to Electal Dysfunction with me, Beth Rigby, Mh Davidson, and me Harriet Harman Now u'm I hope you're all doing very well. I am personally having the time of my life because I have been let out of London again. and I'm increasingly realized that my happy place is not being in London, which is worrying because I live there I'm in Makerfield again. I went to Auntie Rita yesterday. We had a lovely cup of tea in a chat. and despite getting soaking wet in the rain and walking around with my hood up because it' rained a lot I am full of life. I'm meeting people here in Makerfield. I'm away from the chaos that is going on down in Westminster. But it's a kind of pathetic fallacy out there because it never rains, does it? It paws Harriet It's pouring today. Are you overstimulated? Tell me, tell me. Well, I'm only glad you're having the time of your life, Beth, because it you know I don't want to put a damp n on anything, but I think things feel really, really bad at the moment. I mean, there's three things really The first is those two horrific crimes of violence, which we've seen from the police body cam, that terrible killing of that young boy in Southampton and then the terrible knife attack in Belfast. And I think people are reeling from seeing those horrific crimes and thinking that they're happening on our streets. Then we get mob violence in Southampton and in Belfast. And that shocks people again And then we have a cabinet resignation, but not any old cabinet resignation. This is the Defense Secretary at a time when people know that things are more dangerous in the world and there's an increasing recognition of the importance of defense and the defeense seecretary resigns because he says Kistama, the Prime M minister is not doing what's necessary. So I think Things feel very unstable and bad at the moment in the country You made that sound like it was the Marks and Spencers of resignations there, Harriet. When you said it wasn't just any old resignation, It was a defense seecretary. but it was a bit of a doozy. I think we're going to talk about that later. John Heey sort went in studs up as we can say, given that the World Cup starting this week, talking about how the decisions that are being taken are making the country less safe, which is quite a strong charge,'s a high bar But we're going to talk about all of that. Were also one of the reasons that you're in Makerfield, Beth is yes, the byy elections on Thursday, along with the one in Aberdeen South and in Aboth and Brooty Ferry been doing and sitting across Harriet, you and I across a group of voters, a focus group. So we're going to bring you some of that and talking to them about, I find it fascinating actually. It's like being in your own personal goggle box. So it was really interesting. We'll bring you as many clips of it as we can. We'll also have all the legal T's and C's because I know we've got to do them. So all of the candidates standing in Makerfield is in the episode description before that. Although we are going to be talking about some of them by name. You can get the names of everybody that's standing on Thursday just in your description below where you've clicked on to get yourall. There is absolutely loads going on in politics. And also in our own electoral dysfunction cinematic universe That's a hint because we have news of our own to announce, But you're going to have to get through us whichitering on in this podcast We're going to put it right at the very end as a sort of teaser to force you to enjure the next hour or so. hopefully. And of course, by whittering on, Beth, you mean incisive analysis. Oh yeah, sorry without compare Good, As long that's what meant. That is what I meant As I said, I'm in Makerfield and I'm currently in a community center here with our good friend of the Pod Luke Tll, who's sitting next to me, director of Moore in Common. and we've been having a lovely time together, haven't we, Luke? We have had a lovely time together. We pay him to say that everyone. He's got his knees crossed and his fingers crossed. Now we have been having a lovely time what have we been doing, Luke? Well I haven't done much. you've actually done all the work today. So we've been carrying out a focus group of voters in Makerfield who will be making that decision, not just for themselves as to who becomes the new constituency MP for Makerfield, but potentially picking the next prrime minister of the country. So it's, I mean, you know, I said before, I don't think I actually think if you go back throughreeight, you can't think of a by election which has had these sort of slightly weird contours where it's yes, it's the local race, but also it's going to have these big national implications And what was really striking was the people we spoke to, they really felt that. They felt that that decision was on their shoulders and some seemed to welcome it, others less so. Well, we're going to bring you this incredible focus group, but I think it's one of the best I've ever observed. They were just so engaged, the people really thinking hard about it. And for my part, I was left in no doubt if Labour do win this seat, if Andy Burnham, I mean, my biggest takeaway, if Andy Burnham does hold this seat here for Labour, it will be because of his personal brand. because Looking around that room and were they underscided voters or were those a mix? There was a bit of a mix of different voters. Looking around that room, we talked about it afterwards. I sort of felt look a load of them would vote labour this time If it wasn't Andy Berner, I felt that they almost certainly would not. Was that your? abbsolutely. And actually, if you think about the Makeerfield constituency, right, the fact that this is even a contest is pretty extraordinary. So you know, if you look at Makeervill itionally a safe labour seat, you know, former mining area labour since its creation, but the labour share of the vote dropping in the last few elections. And actually in the last election it was Reform's thirteenth best second place. So it's right up there on the target list. It is heavily Brexit votating. a mix like pockets of affluence pockets which are a bit more deprived in the local elections every ward goes for reform is ninety seven percent white as a seat. So you know, all of this it's less graduate than normal. The tends reform tend to do better amongst non graduates. Everything about the seat points to in the current environment at least, this should be pretty near the top of the easy reform pickup And yet It is a race between reform and labour because of that personal vote. And we heard that. And I should say I should say because you mentioned it, this constituency is ninety seven percent white versus an average of eighty two percent across the country. Whilst we were only able to speak to white voters for this focus group, more in common, you did approach a number of diverse folks in the constituency But look, let's Let's stop talking about them, let's hear from them directly. And let's start with the so called King of the North. Andy Bayh obviously There's going to be leadership challenge regardless of the outcome So your choices then are looking like Angela Ryna West Street in Ed Millerband and possibly David Lamy Thther Names that are being touted, I'd rather have Andy Burnham than any of them. Be people who I've worked with are quite split profession that you wouldn't expect them to go certain ways and quite a lot are ani Andy Burnham. Yeah that as well. What's the frustration with? Just what they feel he hasn't achieved or what he hasn't done for Manchester itself you know so depending on what your profession was, you know it's quite pactive, what he decides, what you have, what you don't have, what you do. And if you've seen the bad end of that, you wouldn't support him. And do you think Andy Burnham does represent labour values or Yeah, more so than Keast A army. Wh why did you that there's something you can't put your finger on. I just think he's More in touch with people and ye Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I think he's more in touch with people. I like him more than than Kase arma. I think he's more for the working class. That's how he just comes across like he's one of us, you know, rather than, you know, one of these politicians like the majority of him who you can't trust So one of the things I thought was really interesting was this idea, and there was a conversation that happened more widely than just the clips we' shown you about who should be politicians? Should it be people that are plumbers? Do you need a mix of people? Do you need sometimes educated or professional was used as a kind of like cipher for people who were more kind of career politicians, but the word career politician was used And there was also quite a lot of sense of kind of them and us, that Kir Starmer was a them and he was different, but that Andy Burnham wasn ant us and he was like us. And I thought it was quite ironic really because actually Kir Starmer is quite a late starter in politics. L he only came in a few years ago into the House of Commons Whereas Andy Burnham was Oxbridge, Th he worked for a think tank, and then he was a SPAD, a special advisor, Th he was an MP for sixteen years, then he was a government minister. Now he's the professional mayor of Manchester. So he literally is a career politician, but they made a distinction between him and Kst Aarmer. and it was about relatability I think a little bit of who sounds like them, looks like them, who talks like them, who has experiences that they can relate to. And Andy Burnham did a big play on he grew up in the seat. hisis kids went to school in the seat, that sort of stuff. And I just thought that that kind of identity politics was really clear in there about what people want. It's not actually about what your background is. it's about whether you can give the impression or whether you genuinely can empathize, understand, listen and respond. And I thought that came across really, really strongly I mean, Harriet, what just picking up on what Ruth said, I mean what I thought was so interesting about it is the way in which Anty Burnham is really managed very successfully to position himself as an outsider. That's absolutely right. and I think that in just that one focus group, You had somebody saying, he's more representing labour values. As far as I see it, he represents labour values more so than Kiir Stama, but somebody else in that focus group saying, he seems to understand business and can help business back the country and back the government. So and also as Ruth has absolutely rightly said the issue of people feeling that they can actually trust him. And I think it's not so much identity politics It's representational politics. Wh can actually represent me because they can hear me, they can understand me, I could talk to him, and therefore he could represent me. Yeah, I mean also, the other thing I reflected on listening to this group, which clearly were I mean, Mike, for example, made it very clear in the focus group that he had never voted Labour before. but he told me before we sat down that there was a coffee morning put on the other day and he actually went to meet Andy Burnham. and he quite liked Andy Burnham. And he was talking about the enormity of the choice and electing not just a MP, but potentially a prime minister and that may I was left with the impression that he might well lend Andy Burnham his vote. And I guess Harriet It really did drive home to me the idea that if Berham manages to win this seat, if he manages to beat reform in this seat and he comes to Westminster, I just think he's going to ride over Starmer. I mean and especially we can get onto the healy thing, but when you listen to those voters Do you think he just becomes prospect for Labour MP is irresistible if he can he can be victorious here Well, it didn't surprise me at all that that man said that he met him and he liked him because actually anybody who's met Andy Burnham would find it impossible not to like him. He is genuinely likeable and I think that Labour MPs when deciding whether or not they do want to oust Kir Stahmer and who they want to replace him with We'll think about that liability factor. I think what's really interesting Harriet there about whether you know Andy Burnham can roll over Keer just in almost like a wave of popular support is that the briefing that's been put out by Ker's team was that if there is going to be a leadership challenge, whether it comes from Wes, whether it comes from Andy Burnham, whether it's going to come from somewhere else, the prime Minister will stay and fight and he'll do a John major and he'll win. And I think what this voter group showed really clearly is that if the Prime Minister does stand in any leadership conteest any MPs who come into contact with voters will very quickly learn that he's not a positive influencer or a winner. And I think it could be actually quite embarrassing for the Prime Mister and you'll probably need to be tapped on the shoulder because this group Some of whom were labor voters, some of people were very willing to give K the benefit of the doubt. Some of whom voted for him two years ago to come in and become the broom that swept the country clean after the Tories, which they may not have liked, were so clear that he's not the guy And it struck with me because it's happened a few times before and I always think This is when you know a politician' lost days. When I first asked about how Kyest Dama was doing They laugh. And I always think that when it moves from anger to laugh Tempt to contempt and laughing. That is when you've gone sort of too far and I just I've been really like thinking all this week actually based on our groupss Is there a world in which things turn around, things get better, and Kyia Stara reconnects? And I just can't see it? And I think that must be so frustrating for Kia Starmer because he must be thinking, you know, the economy is getting a bit better. the waitingnesss are down. I'm starting to make the changes, I promise And everybody seems to be so against me. Well, look, let's have a listen to what they said about Kistama because you get a really good picture about how people are feeling I don't know much about him, but I know that I don't like him. But when I'm actually asked that question, I can't tell you why I don't like him. So that just supports all the U turns they've done way U turns Exactly go, rightight? Well'll them do this and everyone go So they drop it and go back, I won't do that. And then they do something else and somely So how can they not have got this right? With all the years they've had chance to plan it And so do not think they actually got in because people didn't want conservatives that's all it was. I don't think he represents true labour values. He don't represent the Labour partarty that I've grown off with. I mean, Luke, just in terms of the group and that kind of unise, they didn't ag they disagreed on a lot, they agreeably disagreed on a lot of things But they were unified in disliking Kir Starmer. I mean, there was not one person there that was willing to advocate for him in any way, but they don't know why they don't like him. I mean, why do you think that is? What's gone so wrong for him I mean, it's a difficult one, right? But I think some of the early decisions, I think set the government off on the wrong track. I also think and you sort of heard it, you know this most people don't want to be that tuned into politics in the sense he hasn't delivered that politics that treads more lightly, I think, is part of it as well. I also think now and you heard it in that group, just the sheer number of U turns has cut through to people. And what I think has happened is because K Stama doesn't project a sort of vision of his own. You know, he's actually quite anti politics and I think saw it as a virtue What has instead happened is people have projected everything that they don't like onto him. I think he's almost become a vessel for people's disenchantment with the status quo because he doesn't have his own this is what I'm about. And so fairly or not, you end up with the comments that you were getting in that. You don't define yourself, other people will define you Wow, profound I hadn't thought of that. We haveentioned I've got a little light bulbs going off before me. like it's like an illuminating moment in my mind That's really interesting. I think one of the things that I'll shout out and I try not to be hugely partisan on this podcast, but I thought one of the things that was really interesting was there was also in terms of what do you think about other leaders, people were beginning to come round to Kemy and seem to be wanting to give her a bit of a chance. And I think that in terms of the stuff on U turns, there's been a stratey. We've talked about this in the pod before There has been a strategy at CCHQ that they're going to see which way the wind is blowing with labor, know when they're going to change course, get ahead of it, call for it, and then claim the win afterwards. And to have the main opposition partarty also reinforcing this idea of a prime minister that always changes course that does lots of U turns, it really has taken hold. Now it's taken hold partly because it's true, but also partly because it's being magnified by the opposition And I think this John Healy resignation that we've seen which happened while we were actually at this focus group is quite an interesting one because a lot of people were sort of scratching their heads yesterday as to why on Wednesday, as to why Kemmy Baidnk was going on defense spending and a review that hadn't dropped yet when she could have gone on something that was leading every single news bulletin in terms of what was going on in Belfast how that led on from the Novak case in Southampton the week before. But she was getting ahead of the game again, and you saw some of the language in the John Heley resignation about how the Deense investment plan was not good enough, that it didn't have the money that had been asked, that again, this idea that Kst Armor talks big but at small the same as we saw in the Jess Phillips resignation. know all of that came out and it really reinforced what Kemmy had already said the day before. and it becomes the legend that becomes true then. So it's almost like there's a doom loop that's going on around Kure Starmer for any change of nuance becomes this flip flop, this U turn and everybody's always expecting it now. it's a really difficult one to get out of if you're the prime Mis. This resignation dropped as you said, Ruth, just as we were starting the fooccus group And it was a real jaw dropping statement from John Healley, who has always been outwardly very loyal to Kir Stara. And it was solely focused on defense spending And he said as Defense seecretary, he could not continue in the job. He said that the development, investment plan, financial settlement which he revealed he had not even seen in full until Monday afternoon this week He said it fell well short of what is required for defeense and the country at this dangerous time he said that Prime Mister had been unable and the Treasury unwilling to commit the resources the nation needs And he also said that if this defence investment plan doesn't, as he se it, meets the moment of the risk that the UK is facing He said, I'm being forced to make decisions that would reduce the readiness of our forces, increase the risk to personnel and operations and could make this country less safe. He said, after explaining to you I would not be able to accept this settlement because it does not give our forces the resources they need. I am now left with no other option than to submit my resignation as your defense secretary. I mean it is so am it paints a picture of a prime minister that is not willing to put enough resource behind defence, which Kir Stam has said he would move mountains to do. It's a highly principled, very courageous actually decision, I think by John y and he has walked out. He doesn't make any other reference to any other difficulties around Kir Stama, but it also paints a picture, I think of a prime minister that is either unwilling or perhaps more likely unable to force these changes through his own cabinet because he's requiring cuts elsewhere and it really does. It left me with just this impression of just how dead this premiership is, like how done. it is and I do think that this u will or hasten the potential departure of Kirama. I mean, I think it's a massive body blow. What do you think, Harriet, do you disagree with me I think it is a massive body blow, as you say. The thing about John Healley is he was regarded as a very successful defense secretary, commanding the respect and confidence of the armed forces, a good communicator about what was going on in the armed services. And I think he was well respected by labor MPs and across the House. He was not seen as a schemer or a plotter, not out for his own interests at trying to do things to advance his leadership potential, but just a loyal and dedicated cabinet member in the position of Secretary of State for Defense. And so that makes him a big loss, but also because Often people would have said about Kirstama, well, he hasn't done so well back here in this country, but what he's done abroad, what he's done on defence has worked. You know He's been seen as a good and successful figure in NATO. know hes stood up well on decisions in relation to Ukraine. and so to have this Criticism about how he's worked on the non domestic things makes it you know it pulls the rug out from under his feet on what he's done abroad as well as the problems that he's faced here at home. And I think it also puts more pressure on Rachel Reeves because people are saying, well, why couldn't she come up with the spending that was necessary. also, Harriet, the other thing he said in the letter which really I knew it, but to see him write it down He said, as you told us last week, Prime Minister Our own intelligence sources and other NATO countries think that Russia could well invade or would be another NATO ally by twenty thirty I mean, that was, I mean I knew that that was what was being discussed But for John Healley to put that down in black and white and say to the Prime Minister, you've acknowledged this and you'll still not meet in this moment. I found that shocking Kir Stahmer himself has said the first duty of the Prime Minister is to keep the country safe And what John Heley said in his resignation letter is that you are making the country less safe, and that's why it's so devastating I think's devastating on a couple of levels because the charges are so high. Harriet's right, firstirst duty of government, you've got to keep the country safe. He specifically says, you are not keeping us safe at a time of rising threats. But he also does the counterman to that, which is you are sending other people's children overseas and you are putting them at risk because you're scrimping on the money. because he says personnel on operations are at risk. And the way in which it's framed this idea that You're unable, but it's the treasury that's unwilling. So he's painting this picture that the prrime Minister, he probably does want to do this, but he's gone to ask Rachel and Rachel's told him no and he's so powerless that he can't do anything about it. And he's gone to the rest of the cabinet and said, can we cut a little bit of your budgets to make up the rest of here because we need to do something of defence. And everyone else has told him to go and do one as well. It just paints that picture of weakness. Yes, I absolutely agree that this is a principal position from the defefense seecretary who is not getting what he requires in order to do his job. so he's walking from the job. fine But I would not be surprised if this is just part of the kind of last days of Rome where it's a little bit of a kind of orderly resignation start happening to show that that actually the Prime Minister can't stick in. But I think every cabinet member on hearing of John Healley's resignation will be thinking Does that mean I should be resigning too at this moment? Or does this mean I should be really backing Starmmer full tilt because of this dangerous moment for Kir Starma? Or should I just keep quiet? So this will affect every single cabinet member. Yeah, we did ask the focus group about it, but just before we bring you what they said to pick up on what Ruth and Harriet, you just said. I think what is so fascinating about this resignation. So sources have said that John Healley has made it clear that he doesn't intend to run for leadership. So it doesn't seem to be a a resignation designed for the next thing for him, but I think what's so fascinating about this idea, Ruth of orderly resignations, everyone is now looking at Maker field and Barnham's team a coronation ideally and they want a timetable set out for Kir Stahmer's departure. And I just wonder whether people are sitting on their hands now because they want to be able to exert max pressure on the prime Minister to get him out of number ten in a way that isn't chaotic after that by election. So it's going to be absolutely fascinating to see what happens Uh, in front of our eyes and also behind closed doors about the pressure that's going to get applied to StarmA. because I have observed like in the past week, there have been so many briefings and stories coming out about Starers fighting on, StAers meeting ministers, but I mean that he's that he's saying he's going to fight on. he's warning people that if they try and support someone else, they've got to resign And it's sort of this hard man act in the run up to this by election But really for all of that rhetoric, as you said, Ruth, the symbol of the letter, the fact he couldn't corral the cabinet to back defense in a way. I mean, he's just so, so wee and that's what it just felt. It feels hopeless for him, doesn't it? now He's a pem and prime Minister and everyone can see it Everyone can see it becausecause the Healy resignation did happen midgroup. We did ask the focus group We did ask them what they thought about it. and actually it turned out, we didn't know this, did we until that Mike actually is a veteran, okay? So he he was very interested on this and you know, he had a strong point of view and this is what he said. I'm a veteran. so you know, as Iveved in the Air Force for eight years and Now, it was in the nineties but I think Since then, it's been pillared, you know, the investment It's not going in. We know that the threat. is getting worse from China and Russia and everywhere else. And They need to plan. if you've failed to plan, you plan to fail top and bottom of it, and you know, defense is important. Fameous Health's important. You you've got to find the money, you've got to bounce the bucks to be able to invest in the right things at the right time. And at this moment in time, health is one and defense is another one.. You know, labor are good at giving money A of we've talked about benefits before. Yeahinitely. But they're not good at balncing them books because they need more investment, but they've got nowhere to get it from Now one of the things that I thought came out really clearly from this focus group was this overarching feeling that everything that they talked about in the way that they framed everything. It was kind of about fairness, how they felt about immigration was all about fairness and who got what what they said about, you know welfare spending and what was fair to people that went out to work, what was fair to people that needed a hand up and it just it just came through really strongly to me. Let's let's have a bit of a listen we need to shake up the welfare system, I don't think it's about ut the welfare bill as in lowering the amount of money that people are paid. What people are currently paid is not livable. It's disgraceful. But I think there are people that are being paid benefits that should not be entitled to benefits. And I'm not necessarily talking about immigrants. I'm talking about the situation that you have with generational benefits Never having any intention of working regardless. People think that entitled peopleeople treat benefits as a salary and it shouldn't be, and it's not affordable. Paid in, fine. If you've never paid in, then I think they should give them work in order to claim their benefit Clean the streets. pickup lit There's a skill ar at shortage So that was the welfare bit. And then again, when they talked about immigration, when they talked about what was happening in Belfast, what they said about Henry Novak's murder justust attend an A and E You can see a difference You go in and you can see it and then If there's like a migrant coming in seen straight awayay and quickly in done and out in wigon And if you see it happen and it's not yes, it's children, which we know can be a priority. It's back to the two tier kind of aspect of things. I don't really see immigration as such an issue that people make it out to be. I think from what I've seen it seems to be the topic above all sort of things, especially with reform. and I don't really get it. We can't hold because you've placed these people in our community. And recent events with Novak in Northern Ireland Streets are being attacked, where managements have being placed. peopleople see, that's our homes. Our community changed. Yes, diversity is good, integration is good But if it's at the detriment of their own communities and families, they're going to kick off and go, I don't like this. If you're a young couple or excuse me, the old couple or a single person with no children and you're made homeless, then you're just left offend for yourself. You wont get any you won't be put up in a hotel or in temporary house or anything. You've just got to wing it If you come over on a boat, on a dinghy, you're immediately that night, you've got a bed for the night, you've got a roof over your head, you've got all your basic things that you need. Yeah I mean I think that sort of fairness framing actually know pretty much sums up like the British psyche, right? You know mostost British people believe in decency fair play, contribution, you do your bit, you get rewarded. We look after each other when we fall on hard times. and this was not an anti welfare group. This was know even know some of the more right leaning members of the group were very clear. We need a safety net for people that fall on hard times, nor were they sort of on imigrationort the Drawbridge Fortress Britain group, but they were a group that thought actually, you know, And they kept coming back to this idea of young families. When young families are struggling and both of them are working, is it fair that they can't get on the housing ladder because lots of houses have been brouought up to be HMOs to house asylum seekers? Is it fair that some people are getting more benefits when other people are struggling? And that sort of sense You know, I often say about you know British people are not cruel. Well, the vast majority, obviously some the vast majority of British people are not cruel. They believe in decency, they believe in fair play. and I think Both left and right get that wrong sometimes So like just to go back to it, obviously my mum grew up here. So a lot of my mum's values I grew up with And I was talking to a local politician here the other day that knows the area really well and the way they described The voters of Makerfield is an essence was that they believe in a social contract and that's what they believe in and you need to understand that about them. And what this politician meant was exactly what Lot was saying, that it's not that people don't want to help people that are struggling that they want them to put in They want them to go to work They want them to try And that's what I really picked up in this group that these were very decent people They were very fair and they were feeling like the government was not hearing them or understanding concerns around immigration and some people getting things when other people were not or concerns about welfare spending. and that didn't make them racist people, it didn't make them bigoted people It was actually about fairness. And I really took away from that. and I think it is I think it's really interesting for the Labour Party, Harriet. which is the Labour party and when the labour politicians are making policy they would do well to come and listen to a focus group of voters such as this group and people that have lived in these communities that you know they were talking one there about For generations all our family have voted labour and now we're not voting labour It seems to me that that kind of social contract between the voters and the government is breaking down because the voters are feeling that things are happening and they're not being heard, particularly around immigration and welfare. and it's really difficult in the Labour Party, isn't it? Harriet? Because welfare reform becomes really contentious. Shabana Mah moods iggrration policies become really contentious within the party, but actually for the wider public probably quite popular Absolutely, and I wouldn't even characterize them as anti welfare. For example, it was like onene of them was saying, but don't cut the benefits level. It's hard enough to live on benefits, but just make sure that people who shouldn't be getting benefits aren't getting benefits. and people should be working rather than being on benefits. And actually Press help people with four children, but not more than four children. So they were really making the case for welfare reform rather than being just hostile to welfare But what they did, which I thought was really interesting, was one of the women that was there was talking about How investing so much in welfare was against labor values because labor values should be for working people, that it was a party that was grown out of the workers. and that when all of the government's money and attention goes to people that are not working and that are breaking that social contract, that's when and in this case they were projecting ont to Kir Starmer, that's when it ceases to be a labour party that she said that she could support I thought it reminded me of Tony Blair's old adage, you know give people a hand up, not a hand out. That's what they were representing It's a real community where people help each other out. And I think that the whole energy of that group were people that had a really strong sense of social responsibility, like really decent Thoughtful people. Yeah. and looking out for what not just the state looking out for you, but you look out for each other and the state is part of that but community. But if people take the piss than you deal with. abbsolutely. And And this sense then that actually government rather than enabling that, they sort of almost what they were basically saying is government doesn't feel like it's on our side yet. It doesn't feel like it's on the side of those values. And I think that's a really dangerous place for any government to be Luke apparently has to do other focus groups with other people, so now I feel cheated on.orry orry, sorry you're all my favourite. You're my favourite. No. No, Luke's got to go, which is We've spent all day together. We've had a love. lovely. Thank you, Luke. No, thank you. So Luke's had to go to another focus group, but we are going to carry on because let's move on to Reform UK. Robert Kenyan nipping at Burnham's heels, but still behind polls. Now Luke rather you know blushes around the room, I think, sort of quoted some of Rob Kenyon's more fruitity language, should we say This is from Robert Kenyan, the reform candidate. So he said on a ro reform, so I'll read youun noir and then I'll go to I'm give the women in the group first and then go more broadly. So women can't drive or give directions. I'm sexist, sorry, but I am European women all have really good figures and are good looking. and then he contrasts this with English women, writing, They don't care. justust walk around with their fat bellies and odd shapes, pushing a pram at sixteen in their PJs. An account which was sort of linked to him said on social media about Carol Vorderman, the presenter, Happy birthday, Carol, my God, I would love to smell and lookick your asshole to which Kenyan's account, his account replied, He's only saying what we're all thinking with a thumbs up emoji and a laughing emoji. Average narcissistic sexist man to honest Lly, I don't know when the comments were made, but I know that people can change for time. but to me That's not someone who I would want running make a field. He's a man in his mid to late twenties. it just seems like old Silly banter to me. Yeah. I'm not offended by it. Yeah. because I've got three sons and three brothers it's But it could have cost you that comment could cost you a job in other professions. Yeah you wouldn't have got to your thirth fouries in your career. You'd have been you'd have seing that you been b I'm not offended by any of those comments. I've heard most of those comments from extended family members. It's the kind of thing people say, I don't think it necessarily represents exactly what you believe.. Yeah. I mean everyone says that about women drivers and well I think most people realize that women drivers are generally better than men driver But it doesn't mean that that's what he actually believes.'s a party knowing people are going to go digging and all these things are going to come out. So is he the right candidate for you at this time? He was talking about abortion And he said that abortion is the cowardly act of murdering a defenseless baby and that women could seek abortions for vanity purposes or as a secondary form of contraception. Is that different? or again, is that in a similar bucket to? Yeah that's not an off the c comment. He's thought about what he's written. Yeah. That's not banter, is it? No. No It's an ignorant comment, isn't it stupid? I think a couple of things that struck me about that is we'd heard quite a lot of commentary saying that, o, this is really going to do for women voters and you know, it's really going to affect them in the polls. And actually the women in the focus group were pretty sanguine about it. and we're sort of a bit like yeah, okay that's know that's a bit rum, but it's nothing I've not heard before. And for the ones that were from fifteen years ago, they were saying, you, you can change your mind in fifteen years. I think what irked them was that when he was on question time, Rob Kenyon didn't really apologize for them or give them an explanation or anything. And it was the lack of that that seemed to irk them more than what was actually said because A couple of them went out and said, like you know, everybody said Daf things that they don't really mean. I thought what was more interesting was actually that the men in the focus group didn't dismiss them those comments, that they actually took them quite seriously and I was quite heartened by that, to be honest with you. And there was no kind of trying to wish it away as kind of banter and one of them even went so far as to say, you know If you'd said something like that in a job, people would have your job for that. likeike you would lose your job for that. and that's not a reason to kind of go and try and be an MP after that. Although I thought what was really interesting was people completely understood that the level of scrutiny by election candidate is higher than on a general election candidate. And if this has happened during a general election, one of them even said, you know, this guy would have won here by a landslide if it was just part of a general campaign. but they almost said it was a shame that he was being put up fail like this and on question time that you know, he was out of his depths. that was used by two of the people that were speaking there. So I thought they were really fair minded towards him. They wanted to give the guy a fair shake. There was no kind of prejudice. for this fresh face from the constituency coming to them, but they were just kind of dissecting it quite rationally, I thought. What I thought was interesting was what you know that actually when it came to the issue of abortion, and his remarks on that, which were pretty offensive. they took that more seriously because this sort of sexist stuff was a long time ago But the abortion stuff was more around a belief that could lead to a set of policies, you or the way you might conduct yourself as an MP. And actually, it was interesting to me that they could kind of forgive sexist language or saying stupid things. But on abortion, and particularly Leah, who said she was anti abortion She really did not like that and it was clear in the room that everyone was uncomfortable with how he spoke about that particular issue more actually than some of the really offensive sexist language he usedews. What did you think of that Harriet? Well, I thought they didn't agree with what he said Obviously, they didn't agree with it at all, but they were very forgiving of him well it was fifteen years ago I obviously would be much less forgiving about it. And I think as you say, it was interesting that the men felt able to pick up on it, whereereas the women were like, well, one of them said, well, you know I've got sons and it was a long time ago But I think that they didn't agree with him on it, but they were quite forgiving of him So one of the things that interested me was that they were really willing to give Rob Kenyan a kind of fair shake while at the same time They were very critical of Nigel Farraage We think of reform as being like a one man band. You often talk about reform as if it's a one man band. and it's Nigel Farj's party in his own image and likeness and that it's popular, therefore he is. And they were using words like slimy, the British Trump, they were and saying that in a pejorative way. a snake oil salesman, they were really, really quite critical of him But they didn't project their own views of farraage onto the candidate here, which I thought was really interesting. Whereas the other party of the right, so they talkks about restore Britain, which is Rupert Lowe, who's a former MP of reform that split and has set up another kind of a schism right party They didn't know what the candidate's name was in the constituency for Restore, but they liked Rupert Lowe and they thought he was a better kind of vessel for that kind of They called it prrotestful but actually that wasn't even what they were talking about. They were just talking about a kind of more kind of belt and braces, they would say common sense, like a different type of communication. And I just thought it was a really interesting So juxtaposition that They could give Rob Kenyan a fair shake despite Farage being so dominant in his party, even though they didn't like Farage They couldn't give you you could give them a hundred goes at it. They could not name you the restore candidate for their seat's name, but they liked Rupert Low, so he's clearly having some cut through think what I think what's happening is that There' all the extra scrutiny that there's been on Nigel Farars is it's showing the first signs that people are taking a closer look at Nigel Farage and starting to be more critical than they have been hitherto. I was not expecting the criticism of Nigel Farage around that group. You've got to remember that this constituency, all of the wards, all of the council wards that were up for election in May, they all voted reform, they all went reform. In Wigon, which is actually the neighbouring constituency, twenty four out of twenty five of the council seats went to reform. Not all of the council seats, obviously were up for grabs this time around So for Farage to kind of be criticized. and actually Harry, I picked up as well what you just said, which was Mike who I think is I think is instinctively more of a voter on the right He referenced the five million pounds from Harbard. No one brought that up It had cut through. And interestingly, Farage was here yesterday I did a sort of makeshift press conference and I went along and I asked him Question about restore. And I said to him What is it that you think Rupert Lowe's doing that is appealing to people that's making him a bit more, you know winning people over from you to him. And he was really t us. and he said, I've got two words, Elon Musk The way he answered, it's like it's getting to him You know, and we did, as always, with Luke, ask voters about the other candidates stand in U And actually it was Rupert Low that they brought up. Are there any other parties that you've heard from? No? Well I actually know of all the sort of mail that's com through the door, I got probably the one from the Green Party, I'm not sure who's sort of running there, but that one was probably the one that resonated with me the most and I think was the most interesting But as has been said before, you know, it's kind of about tactical voting now. and there's really a two horse race, which I think is a shame because You know, I think we could get the Green Party in there. I think they do a lot of good I don't know much about them myself. No I think that on that Quion time programme last week, I thought the conservative guy came across really well. I' but he's used to public speaking, he's an mer of wiging. You know when you're comparing him against the way the reform candidates spoke, it's like chock and cheese. Butn' there's no chance around him. Well, I couldn't tell you anything independence I couldn't tell you studying for conservatives though I agree I say consonservatives what they have done other places and whether it benefits you as an individual. The liiberal Democrat? haveave any of you heard I don't know much about that? No. I really like Rupert Low Yeah. I think he comes across a lot better than a lot of other politicians. He doesn't draw his salary He's very professional I don't think he should have put his pp in the game for Makerfield. I think it's splitting the right vote and it's going to allow Andy Burnham to win. think's made a mistake. So Farage's response to a question about restore yesterday and then what some of the voters were saying today. I wonder how How much is he worrying about this? Because actually Elon Musk, as you all know, he is really back in restore. He is pumping out Rupert Lowe's social media. So when Rupert Lowe does tweets, et cetera, Elon Musk is amplifying them and you is giving them a lot more oxygen than they would have OkayK, look, we could talk about that focus group all day but that is all we have time for today but we have some news for all of you dysfunctioners because we're starting a podcast club for you and it's launching next week I nearly fell off my chair, I'm so excited. I felt like I had to do a little boogy with my disco lights behind watch if you're not watching this, I've literally got disco lights behind me. You need to go online, you need to go on YouTube, have a look. It's called Sky News Insider. and if you'll remember, you'll get ad free listening to all our usual Friday episodes Plus, you'll get an extra episode every single week And I love podting with you guys. So we're going to be doing it more. We're going to be doing two podcasts a week now So is everyone as excited No the news is moving so fast that I'm not even sure two podcasts a week will be enough. No I I mean, it's what you're getting for now. But like there is just there is almost too much news in the world. L every day you just wake up and there's more things have happened. So I will certainly not run out of things to say. that's for Darren and Touton. But but yeah, it's going to be so much fun to see you guys earlier in the week as well But look just to make make it really clear from the outset, very important, very important piece of information. The normal Friday podcast is going to go out to everyone every week for free, as usual. We're not going anywhere. It's just like if you really, really like us, if you are some of our super fans, there is another thing There is another part of this announcement. becausecause it's not just going to be the three of us that's on those bonus episodes. We are welcoming back, a former member of the ED Sister Whood. She's coming back to the podcast because Jess Phillips, now free from the shackles of government, is going to be coming back with us for some of those extra episodes that are going to be dropping earlier in the week Ch as it seems to believe there's actually even more than that because as well as exclusive access to our bonus episodes, which we've just been talking about, you'll get early access to tickets for our future live shows. You'll have the chance to chat directly to us on the subscriber forum. and I'm really looking forward to that. We're calling it the Inider interchange and you'll get bonus content from our sister US podcast Trump one hundred, and a brand new podcast from Sky News' Ed Conway called Stuff Matters. It's a brilliant look inside what makes up our world. Yeah, I'm really looking forward to that Ed Conway podcast, I have to say. But I'm also an Ed Conway super fan. so I'd actually pay for that, talking about paying for it. I should probably tell you That it costs just two dollars ninety nine cents a month to join our club. That's twenty ninears ninety nine cents for the whole year. So coming in with the T's and C's, I'm going to say that it auto renews at the standard price that is currently, as Beth says, two doll ninety nine cents per month or twenty ninellars ninety nine cents per year unless canceled via my account. You can cancel anyt timee effective at the end of the billing period, it is UK only and for eighteenams plus. The whole Sky News Insider Club is going to launch this coming Monday, so you'll have to wait until then to subscribe. We will come back with all the details of how you do it here on the podcast and our first subscriber only episode will be here on Tuesday. So keep an eye on our social accounts too because we'll post all of the links there cannot stress enough that this normal Friday episode is going to stay exactly the same. It so exciting. I need to lie down now. I'm so excited. I need to get ready for next Tuesday for the second bonus episode. The burner phone is still going strong. so send us your thoughts, your feelings, your questions, anything. We love hearing from you. The number to WhatsApp is zero seven nine three four two hundred tri four or email us at elect dysfunction, but that is it for this week. We will see you next week. Goodbye Goodbye. Gbye