Rebuilding trust through delivery and resilience

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The full story first hello everyone it is wonderful to be here and it's not too hot so uh this is a good time. Um, welcome to Electoral Dysfunction with me, Beth Rigby, me Ruth Davidson, and me Harriet Harmon. And this is going to be a live weekly edition of our Sky News uh podcast. And I have to say it's nice to be out of the studio and I've been hanging out in a field for once and I never thought I'd be performing live at a festival with my very own girl band , which is a former deputy Labour leader in Harriet, a former Scottish Conservatives leader in Ruth, but life comes at you fast. I'm living the dream here. Living the dream. Well to be fair, we were on a panel last night with Julia Gillard, the former Prime Minister of uh Australia. And it was very clear, very, very clear that she was the Diana Ross and we were the Supremes. But we were we were given it a bit of this in the background, which is fine. I actually we were backstage and I said to Ruth, I went, I can't believe we're going on a panel with Julia. She went, babes, she's Diana Ross, we're the Supremes . I was like, I'll take that. I'm fine to be a backup singer to Julia. We had a really good time. Um but honestly politics has been coming at us fast this month. We've had the reform surge across the country with the Greens also uh nipping at Labour's heels. We've got nationalist leaders in both Scotland and here in Wales where Labour lost the Senith for the first time since devolution began twenty seven years ago. And we've of course had a load of government resignations keeping me uh busy outside Downing Street, uh including uh the former Health Secretary uh Wes Street in and now we've got not one but three by elections happening in the couple of weeks, next couple of weeks or next month actually. Eighteenth of June. Oh okay. She's always correcting me. I love it. Uh including uh make a field which could path the way to a new uh Labour Prime Minister, a potential uh leadership challenge. I have booked a holiday for August. I don't know if I'm going yet. We're we're gonna have to play uh that by it. And that is just in the last month. So it's I mean it's good for business. It gives us a lot to talk about. Uh on our podcast. But Harriet, you've been banging the drum for stability, uh haven't you? But it doesn't feel achievable right now, does it? Well I just sometimes I think am I the only person left on the planet who is in favour of the fact that what you have is you have a manifesto, you have a general election, you have a leader, you have the result of the general election, they crack on with doing it, short of misconduct or something like that, where obviously you need to chuck the Prime Minister out. But short of misconduct, they carry on until the next general election and then you look back and decide whether or not you're going to keep them or chuck them out. I mean isn't that so I'm I'm well I'm so glad I'm not the only person on the planet . So nineteen nineties Harrier . However, um I'm wondering how because that's not what the position we're in at the moment, clearly. Um and I'm wondering whether we can chart a path by ref raming male ambition . So perhaps we can reframe it as being really ambitious and I'm in favour of male ambition , but can we reframe it as being an excellent part of a team supporting the Prime Minister? So to be like really admiring the amazing things that Andy Burnham has done really, admiring the amazing things that West reating has done, and pressing them forward to be part of a team, making Keir Starmer be the best Prime Minister he can be. So couldn't that be male ambition rather than male ambition being toppling the leader ? But I I mean Harry. I mean but you do know these men. You know them quite well. And you also know lots of men like them. And that isn't the way male ambition works, is it? Well, I don't know, we'll just have to see . So let's start off with I want to ask you all a question because I rarely get to see so many people at once. So we want to ask a question which is uh we want to talk about whether we should have another general election and I'd like to get a quick show of hands. We'll get onto the general election to start with. Firstly, should there be a change of Prime Minister? Put your hands up if you think there should. Ooh This is encouraging for Kier. This is encouraging. We don't know whether the rest of the channel is take a photo and send him back. But we need to have it. Keep your hands up. The people that want them gone. And we're won't name you. So change of Prime Minister hands up. Change of Prime Minister, hands up. Hold on. And people that want stick with Keir . Whoa. Here we find your people. These are your people. You gotta send him that. There's like I don't know how to do it. Should we send that yet? Well in a room full of a few hundred people I think there must have been what about thirty, forty changed Kia and many many hundred s saying keep key. And it was lovely that the Starmer family took a group booking for this podcast audience. So thank you everyone for that. I think what's interesting in this as well is that um there's a bit of disconnect I, think, between what's going on in Westminster at the moment and and the country, in that what's happening in Westminster is Labour MPs and you remember that massive might majority, but because of the way that they ran that election and they concentrated resources in seats which they could just tip, there's a lot of new intake of MPs that have very, very slender majorities. And basically they're really worried about losing their jobs and they're kind of panicking. And so what's happening is they are agitating for a change of leadership because they have have come to the conclusion that they cannot win a general election under Keir Star mer and they want to get it done now rather than wait, but as you're demonstrating in the room, in the wider country, probably people think that you have to give a Prime Minister who's been elected a mandate a bit longer to try and improve the situation. Well I think there's there's two things they're worried about. They're worried about losing their seats, but they're also worried about reform because they feel are we going to be those MPs that actually But I think the rest of the country just wants people in the House of Commons to care about jobs outside of the House of Commons rather than their own and the economy and and everything else and to put their efforts into that . But um we also had some questions that were submitted ahead of time. Now we've got one here that we really liked that we're going to read out. It was from uh Hannah, who we think might be in the audience, but she said if she doesn't come it'cause she's studying for her politics A level. So you're you're either skiving or you're working, Hannah. Either way, best of luck to you in your exams. Uh Hannah from uh Hay on Why, so I think you're local says Has the role of Prime Minister become impossible? Given the recent run of form, it seems that no one person can nail it. That's despite the diverse range of characters who've tried. I mean diverse range of characters is polite, Hannah. Well done. Your your mother raised you right. So there we go. What do we reckon? What can it's an impossible job when there's no money, isn't it? I was thinking about this question because people keep asking this question about is it impossible to become a Prime Minister? Is the UK becoming ungovernable? So I have spent a bit of time thinking about it, and actually, I mean I think the job of Prime Minister 's becoming harder because of as Ruth said at the moment and going into the general election of twenty twenty four and coming out the other end, we ask endless questions of Star mer and the Labour leadership across the piece about being a bit more truthful with the public about the trade-offs that were going to be necessary because you simply couldn't have spending uh not being cut and taxes not being raised, like it was an unsustainable model. And actually that was kind of baked in when the Conservatives did the big national insurance tax cut ahead of the general election. And then Labour felt they had to commit to not raising the big three taxes: income tax, national insurance, and VAT. That raises 75% of the tax state. So they're massive. And the Labour felt they had to commit to not raising those in order to win the general election. You kinda knew that they were storing up trouble because these things were going to be irreconcilable and that in a way is what what has come to pass. So I think that there was a specific set of problems then compounded by obviously the continued war in Ukraine and the the now war in Iran. But I don't think it's impossible being Prime Minister. And actually a lot of you uh will be old enough to remember the nineteen seventies. And back in the nineteen seventies I went back to look there were four prime ministers in a decade and we've had what four prime ministers in a decade? And if you think about the seventies, you had the external nineteen seventy-three oil shock, that triggered a crisis, you had inflation, stagflation, you had the Sterling crisis, then you had the the winter of discontent and if you look across our past decade we've had well further than that but you had the financial crisis into austerity into Brexit you then had Covid then you had the Ukraine war and so you've seen these external shocks which really put your political system under acute pressure. And I think that we are playing out a version of that. And then I think it's kind of given stero ids by a 24-7 news cycle, social media, a digital age in which communication is ceaseless, endless, and continual. And then, of course, that puts a lot more pressure on the incumbent But then I think if I said it was, what where would we go from there? Well I mean you wouldn't get to stand outside Downing Street going, Are you gonna resign, Prime Minister? Uh all the time. I think we could probably all do without that though, couldn't we? No, I don't know. I mean you do it with style and pash. Well I don't know about that. I do it with enthusiasm. Yeah. I think for me there's some sort of non-negotiables, and this isn't about character type or personality ty pe. I think the thing that gets most people on side are kind of honesty, integrity, vision for the country. So like this is where we're going, this is how we're going to get there, this is what the country is going to look like in five years, ten years time. And then kind of intellectual coherence. So the decisions all take you towards that further goal. And then actually that helps the government work better. Because I think some of the frustrations is when government breaks down or policies, you know, they conflict with each other or stuff like that. And if you have a Prime Minister who's been able to take time in opposition to have that kind of vision and and it often gets called a kind of ism or whatever, then it it makes all of the other ministers able to take decisions when they cross their desk because they know it's going to fit in with where the the ship of government is going. And I think when you have somebody that changes their mind a lot, and and I think this is part of the problem with when you have Prime Ministers that change midterm is they've not had that time in opposition, they've not kind of crafted a manifesto, they've not had a look at what it is that they want to do, what are the challenges of the age, how do we move forward. When they take over midstream and they're having to run two million people in an NHS and they're having to run, you know, all of the the ship of state, they can't do the thinking that's needed, then it's really, really hard for uh ministers and and cabinet ministers to take decisions. And if for example, and and you know, we will use the example of a we we won't use any real example, but let's call him Morris Boyson. If it's somebody that changes their mind, and if you're sent out as a politician to answer for a government policy and then the government policy has changed by the time you've come off air, it just it just means that you can't communicate to the country. And and even if the public and voters don't agree with you on something , if they can hear that you believe it and if you've got a rational argument for making it and if you can show how it fits in with where we're trying to date the country, most people will give you the benefit of the doubt. They will. They you know they might not be your natural voters, but they will they will they will say right, okay, let's see how that works and let's see if things get better. But I think the problem that we've had, and the problem with changing sort of riders mid-horse or whatever the metaphor is, is that is that actually we keep changing direction as a country and and then we're sort of running to catch up with ourselves. And it and it feels a bit like a lost decade actually in terms of you know, all of the things that we look for as markers, health indices, growth, economic performance and all that sort of stuff. And I think that there is an argument for saying you have to let people build that vision. And I think part of the frustration with Keir Starmer is a lot of people haven't seen that from him. They haven't seen him say you know, he he ran a campaign that got him a massive majority saying the Tories were crap, vote them out, it's time for change. But he didn't actually say here's where Britain needs to be, here's where the UK needs to be in five and ten years' time and let's all pool together and work towards that. And I think if he'd done that, he'd be finding this part of government, if he had that kind of North Star, he'd find this part much easier. I mean number one, do you think being Prime Minister is impossible, but also number two , have you come to the conclusion, as some of your colleagues have, that maybe a change of leader is inevit Mr. I think that the job of Prime Minister for all the reasons that that you set out Beth is incredibly hard. The best of times to be Prime Minister, but it's even harder if you've got no money to spend to kind of show your your priorities in the way you want to. And social media is an absolute game changer in politics. And you know, we have to be politicians and government have to govern in a social media age and that is very challenging. But it's just got to be a challenge which is embraced and surmounted. So I don't think it's impossible to be Prime Minister and there's been a lot of talk about is Britain ungovernable. I don't think it is, but I think it's very tough. But I totally agree with what um uh uh Ruth has said, which is that you've not got got only to make the changes that you promised, but you've got to communicate them. You've got to do the policies, but you've also got to do the broader politics. And that's definitely what's got to happen. I mean I don't want to say that a change of leadership is inevitable. And I 100% want Andy Burnham to win in that maker field by election, but I don't want a leadership challenge and I also don't want a general election, another general election, because there is a scenario in which the new leader, call him Andy Burnham, for example, actually thinks I need a new mandate, and Farage will be saying, Well, yes, the country does want a new Prime Minister, but they want me. They don't want Annie Burnham. Nobody's voted for him. You know, he's a usurper. And it might be that he feels he's got to get his own mandate rather than just manage the implementation of Keir Starmer's mandate. And if he were to have a big surge in the polls, he might think that in that case he should go for a general election and not do what Gordon Brown did, which is despite having a surge in the polls, once he'd taken over as Prime Minister, he didn't go for a general election and after that things went downhill from him after that. So we might find ourselves not only with a new Prime Minister but somehow tipped into a new general election . And I think you know stability is such a kind of fusty and un you know unsexy proposition. But actually, I think people just want to get on with their lives, get on with their businesses, get on with things. And chopping and changing looks kind of chaotic at the top. And that's one of the things we absolutely Labour promised it would be different from the previous Conservative government that we wouldn't have uh chaos. So when you say is it inevitable, I f I feel I a bit you know, despite all these views here, I do feel um uh it it you know that the tide seems to be going in that direction. But um I I don't think it it should and I want Andy Burnham elected and I want Gwesin Kabanet and I want them all Yeah, I think I was right. Yeah, I was pretty I was pretty sure that everyone's back on that one. Uh well look, we spent lots of time talking about the twists and turns that go on behind the door at number ten and what's happening in the lobby and what's happening in the corridors of the House of Commons on the podcast talking about Keir Starmer and the kind of putative leadership elections. But there is more happening in politics right now than just the Labour Party .et more out of summer with match day ready broadband for zero pounds up front. Just grab EE full fiber. It's ultra fast so they can stream all day while you take those work calls live from your patio . And EE is the only major provider who'll give you up to £300 to switch. Switch to EE today. Up to £300 credited to your EE account. Verify at EE.cutek slash claims, new BT Group Customers, 62% UK availability term supply . I'm Sam Coates from Sky News. And I'm Anne McElvoy from Politico. Downing Street Drama, leadership battles and policy U-turns. We're on it before it breaks. We take you straight into the rooms where the real political conversations are happening. Smart Insight, clear analysis in your feeds by 7.45am . So you start your morning fully brief for the day ahead in British politics. Hit follow and listen to Politics at Simon Hans wherever you get your podcasts . I think there's a couple of big stories that have maybe not had the coverage that they otherwise might have done had it not been for this kind of internecine warfare uh in Labour at the moment. And um i in terms of the ones that have fallen under the radar I I think there's there's questions about that big five million pound donation to Nigel Farage. I think lots of people want answers on that . But I think it's about character and trustworthiness in politics and and integrity. There is that kind of sense of British fair dealing, I think, that's at the heart of the questions that people have. And then you know, we we were chatting about what we wanted to talk about and what we thought we'd missed and uh and we were talking about that yesterday. And then obviously yesterday in my part world we also had the chief executive of the SMP pleading guilty to um embezzling the funds from his own supporters that they donated to the SMP and and you know how that reflects on other people. So I I think that idea of trust in politics is is quite Beth, is that one for you? Because you have to ask us all the questions. Yeah. I mean look I think I think trust in politics really matters and I think it's I think it's really low. It was interesting this one because that story which I think you probably all saw which was it turned out he had a five million uh gift uh he got it a few months before he became an MP from um Christopher Harborn, who is a crypto billionaire. Uh he lives in Thailand, he's not domiciled in the UK, doesn't pay tax in the UK. Uh he has subsequently uh given reforms several million pounds uh in donations, political donations. And before he gave this personal gift to Nigel Frage, I think he also donated uh to UKIP or some of the previous uh parties that Nigel Farage had had led . This money it's a lot of money. I mean I wish I had a mate that gave me five million quid. I've seen a really nice massive house I'd like . Um but i it it this happened a sort of this story came out. It was actually broken in the Guardian uh about two weeks before uh the local elec tions. I'd already done an interview with him about the elections b before this story came out. And I didn't actually get any access to him until the day after the elections. And the reason I'm saying this is there was quite a lot of noise sort of on social media, being quite critical of journalists for not asking these questions to Nigel Farage. I'm like, yeah, that's because we haven't got any access. It's not that we wouldn't ask the questions. It's just the only opportunity that I had to ask him was when I saw him and he was really cross with me. Told me it was a waste of space, the interview, did the kind of sky news, you know, fake news uh and I was like look my job with any politician be that Labor, Reform, Conservatives, Green, is to on behalf of audiences and people that don't get in front of these politicians but would have questions for them, that's my job is to ask them those questions. So I did persist. And it was a really ill-tempered interview. And I think to be fair to Keir Starmer , I often ask him questions he doesn't like, but he doesn't passingly have a go at me uh for asking uh those questions. He he understands that that is part of the process of democracy and accountability and I think with Farage to be fair to him he takes loads of questions from journalists they, do loads of press conferences, he takes lots and lots of questions, but he often attacks you personally for asking a question you don't like. He did it when I did council tax. He told me I was wrong, that it wasn't correct . Uh he did it when I asked him about the NHS funding, he told me that I was wrong he'd never said that. And I now I take the receipts to my interviews with him. So I d I do I take my transcripts so that I have all the evidence. So I say, look, uh uh this is what you said and I'm quoting it back to the It sounds like the Trump playbook, doesn't it? When you you when you talk about that, that's what tr that's that's what Trump does to uh reporters and good for you and uh broadcasters you never back off. You do persist so good for you for doing that. I mean what do you think about it when you watch? Do you think the kind of relationship between the interview and the politician is changing? I think it is. I also think what I've seen so so sort just to be uh open about this, I was a journalist for over a decade before I became a politician. And once I become a tax collector and a traffic warden, I'll have the set of jobs that nobody likes. But um the thing that I've seen with the rise of social media that I really hate is this lack of good faith in people. Nobody used to suspect that journalists or they wouldn't say that journalists are biased this way or biased that way or you know that you're sucking up or you're you know and and the attacks on journalists now are at least as strong as the attacks on politicians. And and I I think that this misunderstanding or this coseting that people do where they keep themselves in a lane of social media where they speak to lots of people that believe the exact same thing as them and it reinforces their own beliefs. It's really damaging because it it means that anybody that steps out of that is acting in bad faith or is on the attack or whatever. And and scrutiny is the most important thing. I mean you know it's the reason that we're not a despotic state is the fact that we've got a rigorous and free press and I will absolutely fight to my death to defend it. And I think that um what really upsets me about what's happened with Trump and what's happened with uh Farage and others. Uh and Alex Amond used to sometimes do this. He would pick on a journalist and he would traduce their question, tell them their question was stupid or that they weren't right to ask it or all the rest of it is that you don't get to make that decision, but but also people watch it and they see it and other people see how they act by the way that we conduct ourselves. And even if you're not the Prime Minister of a G7 nation, if you're a politician that's on television, you are still a leader in a sense that you are a thought leader. And you have a responsibility on how you conduct yourself and how you act and how you speak. And you see that, particularly when politicians are on Twitter, for example, slagging each other off and calling each other traitors or saying that you you know some of that people follow that. They think that that's acceptable language and it coarsens the whole debate and and I you know I'm I'm I'm not misty eyed and I don't believe in motherhood and apple pie, but we used to be better than that and we deserve better than that, I think. And I think And I think it's gonna take voters to demand better from the politicians, for the politicians to get better, because at the moment they're pandering to the lowest common denominator and that's where they're getting all their retreat tweets and all their clicks and and we have to get out of that cycle. And and I think just to pick up on something you said a minute ago, Beth, and I know you were saying it in a light hearted way, uh which was God I wish I had a friend that would give me five million pounds. I actually really don't because I hate the idea I I'm I I really hate borrowing and lending 'cause I hate being beholden to people. And I think that's the suspicion in lots of people's mind about this particular case is yeah, and how are you beholden to this guy? What is it that he wants back and he says that it's just free gratis money? N I I just didn't I mean I I should say that Farage has always insisted that it was an unconditional gift and it was meant to pay for his personal security. It was not a political donation , and so no rules were broken. That is that is what he says. But of course, the rules also state, which was the point I was making in that quite test y uh interview, was that the rules also state if there is any doubt what soever, it's better that you declare. So there is an obvious question as to given that you subsequently became a politician a few months after that donation, which has been used for personal security , but you are now using that personal security in a political capacity. Would it have been better just to declare it? And and he insisted in that interview it was not. He is now under uh investig ation uh for that. But we have a secret weapon. So there are I don't know if you've heard there are other political podcasts that exist . Most of them are populated by men, it has to be said. But we have somebody that has done every job in Parliament, who has knows every single rule of Parliament, who has been the mother of the House, who's run the standards committee, that's in charge of Parliament. So we have a Harriet Harmon on our panel who is literally the last word on this stuff and has already scalped a Prime Minister because of it. So I I mean in terms of where the rules are and what they state and and and why they exist and and why things like some bloke gave me five million pounds and then I became a MP in a couple of months' time. Where do we stand on that, Harriet? People are entitled to expect people to go into politics not to personally enrich themselves, but to actually do good for the people. So that's the first thing. You don't go into politics to to enrich yourself. And secondly, you've got to serve the people. And you know it's he who pays the piper calls the tune. The point is you are paid by the people to work for the people. You are not paid by somebody else to use your political power to deliver to somebody just because they've paid you money. You are there to deliver for the voters and for your country. So that is the basis of having very strict rules. And the rules are strict as to openness. It's about registering your interests so that basically people can see them and judge for themselves. You know, you can take donations, but you've got to make sure that people know that you've taken money because then next time they might decide they're not going to vote for you. So it's about transparency. And what is very dismaying is not only as part of the Trump playbook is Farage saying, the press is rubbish, how dare you ask me these questions? And we should absolutely celebrate and fight to defend the freedom and independence of our press and broadcasters. But he's also going, these rules, this is just a conspiracy theory attack on us. You know, we should all, as politicians, support the rules which keep our politics clean, not decide to trash them in order to get away with it. So So and I myself once uh nearly fell foul of the rules, and I'll just tell you how strict the rules are so you can see. So what happened was I was running for Deputy Leader of the Labor Party and suddenly the Labour Party said, Right, we're going to let all of the candidates write a first class envelope to every single Labour Party member with a leaflet in it for your candidacy uh and it's gonna cost like fifteen thousand pounds or something. You have to pay to the Labour Party fifteen thousand pounds in order to buy uh these envelopes. And I didn't have any donations or anything. I didn't have fifteen thousand pounds in my you know campaign accounts. I didn't have any campaign funds at all. So I was like, how am I gonna get this money? fifteen thousand pounds. So my husband and I came up with a great idea that we would get an extra mortgage on our house . So we applied to the Halifax to get a loan of fifteen thousand pounds to buy these envelopes and the leaflets. And then it came out in an interview that this is how I'd got the money, because obviously I didn't have the money in my funds which all had to be declared to the Labor Party. And then I fell foul of the the rule that you can't take loans without registering a loan. And I was like, but it's a loan on my own house from the Halifax, who are the people with my mortgage. But actually, I was held to a really you didn't register this, this was a loan, and I thought I was actually going to be toppled from my position in the cabinet and as deputy leader. And actually, what I did is just strive to put everything out there on the table, and ultimately they decided late registr ation was fine. But what you shouldn't do is fight the system that is there to protect our politics from corruption. But that's how strict the situation was. And when we see also um Zach Pelansky being uh questioned about his council tax. I mean, it's the same for everybody. I mean, I was driving my car once back in the day, and you know, I had three small children, I was on the front bench, I was an M P for a very hard pressed constituency, and I'd I I'd failed to renew my road tax. And it was in the days of the disc on the front of the car. And I had motorcycle paparazzi driving alongside me taking a picture of my road tax license so they could put it on the front page of the newspapers that I was evading tax and that was a a terrible moment because basically we're all supposed to pay our taxes like everybody else and not think that we can get away with it. But in a way you can think that's really unfair and it nearly did cause a crash, my driving not being great at the best of times, but um but but actually we have to have those high standards and the point is to lean into them. So you know Zach Balanski thinks that everybody's making a victim of him. No, it's not making a victim. It's high standard s for everybody and lean into that and embrace it, Zach. Don't make yourself a victim. I should say uh that a Green Party spokesperson said Pilan sky had taken steps to pay any council tax he may be found to owe. And he did apologise for what he said was an unintentional mistake. So important about what Ruth said about if you disagree, you can massively disagree on politics and policy, but you can accept each other's good faith in doing it. And that is the the the the sweet spot that we need to get back to because although it often doesn't seem like that, Ruth and I are in different parties and we absolutely do disagree profoundly on some things. But I accept her good faith. I don't think her intention to get into politics into the wrong party was ev was actually is actually a lower sort of moral position than mine to get into the Labour Party. And I think, you know, as well as stability and sort of honesty is another unsexy thing, which is like uh mutual support of the issue of recognising that politics is an important thing for our democracy and we should oh God this, sounds so I'm gonna stop even speaking. This is why I absolutely love Harriet Harmon because she says all of these really lovely, lovely things and then just has like a little dig at the side of it. So you're in the wrong party room. And she does it with such grace. I mean, this is a pro. This is an absolute like her drive-by kneecapping of other politicians on debate shows. I mean, it is it is a gold standard of how you do these things and still come out of it looking like the good guy. But it on the idea of good faith, I just wanted to point out just while you were telling that story it occurred to me, um because not everybody would know this, that story about um having to remortgage your house to fight the deputy leadership of the Labour Party. That is an unpaid position. So that's about the commitment that you had to your party, to the country, to the focus of how you do things, to women to make sure there was a woman sitting at the top table within that. And that is entirely on brand for Harriet Harmon because she I mean I'm not sure that's a risk that me and my wife would choose to take when we had children and things like that. I mean that level of commitment I think should be applauded and I would like you all to applaud Harriet Harmon for that. So so we have taken you all through today about how the government is in crisis, how politicians are troughing and taking lots of money, how none of you trust us. Um but we thought we would end on a more uplifting note if we could, uh because we did have a question that came in from uh Anna, from Surrey. Do you do you have that one there? Do you want to read it? Why don't you read this one out? Okay. Anna from Surrey asks How on earth do we rebuild trust and hope with the disillusioned, disengaged and disenfranchised electorate? Big question, but what's the one thing politicians could do right now to move the dial? Ruth, you start. So I like the fact that there's lots of D's in there, um dissolution, disengaged, disenfranchised , because actually I think politics at its base is about delivery. And I think if you actually make things better for people, then they re-engage. And I think that the reason that people are disillusioned and disengaged is because life has been really hard and it's not getting better and they had austerity and then they've come out of that. And we've had ten, eleven, twelve, fifteen years now where there's not extra money in the pocket. Things are getting harder. Businesses on their high street are closing down. There's more empty units. Their kids can't buy a house. You know, like life feels more difficult. And and it's also this kind of this really innate sense that we all want to be able to give our children a better life than we have. Whatever we started from, we want to give our children just that little bit more. And it feels that the generation that's coming up is the first generation that's not getting that. They're not getting better health outcomes. They're not getting on the housing ladder. They're not having stability in a job. They're not having security, financial security uh as they age. Uh and I think that delivery is the big thing, but also that communication and telling people where the country's going. A bit of vision, a bit of hope, a bit of honest communication, and getting on and actually making things better. That's how you get people engaged in politics again. I mean I I try and work on the basis of show not tell. Uh i just try and do a good job instead of telling everyone you're trying to do a good job or I'm doing a good job, just show not t ell. And I think what what's so interesting about the Starmer administration was in that first year, remember it was a rough first year, and they let go of Sue Gray as the chief of staff, there was quite a lot of churn in number ten, there were a number of resets I've run out of. I can't remember how many resets there were. And internally the team knew that. They were saying to me this was sort of seven , eight months in, we have to actually have what they would describe as proof points. There's no point in the Prime Minister doing another speech saying this is what he's going to do. The public need proof points I think one of the things that's probably frustrating for this Labour government is they actually have buried in recent weeks some better news stories like boat crossings are falling. They're still high, but they've fallen quite a lot this year. Uh immigration is halved. Of course, you know, that was a big ask of Brexit, and that was part of the fury of voters that the Conservative government uh promised to uh deal with migration and then actually Boris Johnson opened up the borders even more. I mean when I was preparing for the leadership debate for Sky and we started doing the research, I could not believe that in the final year of having open borders with the EU, there was less immigration into the UK all the last three years than there were the you know post-Brexit. So you can understand why voters feel betrayed if they voted for something got exactly uh the opposite but but hospital figures are slightly improving. There was even an uptick in economic forecastles actually uh ministers will go on to the airways to try and talk about policy. But you don't talk about policy when West Street and is running not even it's not even a shadow campaign now, is out every day on a campaign note , burnhams out on the campaign stump every day. I mean that that that's part of the problem, isn't it, that even when they begin to get some delivery now it's been wiped out by the political chaos in terms of the visibility That's absolutely right. On the exact same days as there was new hospital waiting list figures showing them coming down, as there was new figures on immigration showing the the small boat boats and legal and illegal migration falling, and that there was an uh a better than forecast economic growth on the exact same days as those figures came out. We had firstly West Streeting resigning and that took headlines, and then we had the MP of Makerfield standing down for Andy Burnham to run. So it literally blotted them out. But in terms of Anna's question about rebuilding trust and hope, and going back to the point that we were talking about is what what is the story of Britain at the moment? Where are we actually heading to as we try and get past the the difficulties that that there are at the moment? I think there's people are so aware of the kind of uh external events that can knock us off course that you you read them all out, Beth, you know, whether it's it's a virus, uh you know, whether it's a global economic crisis, whether or not it's Trump being just a global crisis in one man.