Final Verdict on Joan of Arc

Warning, this episode contains strong language Genius, Genius, Gius. Hello, I'm Russell Cain. and what would happen if you asked Chaty BT to generate a cruise magician on his way to Dignitas Welcome to Evil Genius. The show that opens up the archives of history, blows off the dust, then immediately draws a cock and ball on it. Not on the face, Anmolen. Oh wait, that doesn't quite work, does it? given how her life finished? Maybe give that episode a listen, hashtag literally giving head So what we' not? I'll tell you what we're not, We're not some CBBC sket show that dumbs down the past with stupid songs, costumes, and wigs. This is horrible histories if the cast were on meth and the costumes had all come from a sex shop in Soho. And besides, our audience has a much lower reading age. They're on the Red sticker books, so I'm told. Today's legend is a nerdy virgin with a dodgy haircut And no, we're not finally doing a show about me. To some, she's a martyr, a heroine and a feminist icon who fought for freedom for her people. To others, she's a warmongering god botherer who put the entente into entent and seeking Yes. I'm taking a day off after that It is, of course, Joan of As. Ark I I shouldn't watch that when I was so young The panel today is Ola L Beib, Ed Hedges and Lily Phillips. Welcome. Now I want to ask the panel, Joanah Arc was a teenager who was absolutely obsessed with God Did you have any obsessions as a teenager, Ed? Yeah, they were weird though, reallyally weird. G on. I had a touch I had a touch of everything, but I used to really early teens. I was really into animals, so I used to find beetles in the garden, bring them inside and make like little nests for them because I was into animal hospital. But the beetles would crawl out the nest and my parents kept thinking they were finding shrines all over the house and they thought I was in the occult Is that weird? I want to find a way of saying yes less brutally than just yes. Okay Yes Did you Well maybe you were obsessed with God wereere you a religious child or not religious? Child. I was obsessed with the Lord of the Rings. Elijah Wood The true Lord. Finally she gets it. It was a hobbit. I loved Lord of the Rings. I loved Elijah Wood. Elijah Wood was born on the twenty eighth of January. I was born on the twenty seventh of January close to midnight so we almost had the same birthday. Wow I'll allow that as an normalish obsession. Yeah, I was fing the beatles take beetatles and then releaseed them in your home. You put up once and it just doesn't stop. No It's a hard drive that wants checking, is all I'm saying. So when was Joan of Arc born? In fourteen twelve in the French village of Gomreemy, herer dad was a farmer and local official and her mother was a deeply devout Catholic Joan very much followed suit in the religion stakes, in fact, she loved church so much that other kids teased her for it. She was known for dropping to her knees when the church bells rang and for scoallding the church warden when he forgot to ring them. very much the kid in the class who reminds the teacher they've forgotten to collect the homework She was the girly swatT of Godding When Joan was born, France was having bit of a rough one They'd been fighting the English for decades in what later became known as the Hundred Years War and it made sense to name that later on. That really would kill morale fifteen years age. I'm calling this a hundred years. King Charles VI, the mad king, had suffered repeated bouts of psychosis and at times he didn't recognize his wife or children, thought his body was made of glass, refused to wash and once killed four of his own guards in a frenzy. Sounds like me at our rap party I' joking Do you think we have the budget for a rap party on this fucking thing In the background, rival noble factions fought for power, the Burgundians on one side and on the other, the Armagacs. who were supporters of the king's son, Charles AKA the Dauphin on the other. Wine versus brandy. Only one can win, both defeated by the presence of cheese traditionally. After the humiliating French defeat by the English at the Battle of Aggincourt, the French quQeen and wife to the mad King, Isabaot of Bavaria, signed the Treaty of Tix. This treaty recognized the English Henry V as heir to the French throne and disinherited Isabau's own son, the Dauphin It was said that several prophets, including Merlin, had predicted that France would be betrayed by a woman but won back by a virgin. Most people wouldn't catch wind of this prophecy and think It's me. But that's exactly what Joan did. At about thirteen, Joan had her first vision. She was in her garden when she saw a bright light coming from the direction of the village church At the same time, she heard a voice telling her to be good and go off to church. She identified the voice as Staint Michael the Archangel, patron saint of warriors. She was also visited by Stt Catherine and Staint Margaret, Virgin martyrs, to whom she made a vow of virginity. Hid anyone on the panel ever had an imaginary friend?? I was put off by a drop dead Fred. I thought imaginary friend had to be like a middle aged white man If you want to progress to this business. evenven your imaginary friends are run by straight white males. Is there no limit to the patriarchy my imaginary friends what' stgging. Obviously now obviously it's much more diverse. I imaginary friends are much more diverse these days, but obviously back there there was no choice I couldn't imagine anything else. No, I couldn't E apart from your Beatle buddies who kept you comfy, I'm really masturbation chamber. It's escapeang prison. A making touch I'm scared to share. now you had an imaginary friend so just describe it. I lost control. It wasn an imaginary friend, but it was a real person U what? Yeah. so just imagine that they were your friend. Yeah. It was a celebrity. It was Steve Irwin Steve Owen. so you imagine Steve Owen wass your mate. Yeah I imagine. I used to have chats with Steve Owen in the kitchen. My mum would come in the f. I used to have chats with Steve Owen in the house. and my mum sat me down and had a proper hard conversation. She say he was dead as well. Is that why he's dead? No Well, actually the day the news broke that he passed away, we had builders in the house fitting stuff And I hid and cried in one of the boxes with the Beatles. Yeah. sound really random, but when you imagined you were talking to him, what were you looking at at the time? Good point. It was always when I was like making like a sandwich. I would look at like what I was doing. See the animal that just flew in and attacked Lily and that's my animal friends helping me. That's the time off took off from one of my jokes, Right you guys watch ing there for years. Just chatting normally, the sad thing was when I saw him on TV, I wouldn't talk to him because he can't be here and there. Did you have siblings? Two of them, they didn't like me very much. Beatles don't count, you know, let them 's all dungy and staggy. John and Paul ye. to Joan, one thing was clear. these visions meant she was special. She decided the only possible conclusion to draw was that it was her Godd given mission to drive the English out of France and see the Dauphin crown This would have been an extremely bold claim for anyone to make, let alone an illiterate peasant teenager But Joan had extraordinary self belief In fourteen twenty eight, aged about sixteen, she left her home lying to her parents about where she was going and saying she was going to help a woman in a nearby village give birth sounds like me as a teenager. My dad, I'm not reading a book. I'm drinking on the estate like a normal kid. You thought a penguin classic was a biscuit. Instead, she headed towards a nearby military garrison in Ivakulia, where she demanded their support in getting an audience with the Doe fan. Miraculously she convinced them I don't think you understand, like notot only did women and the working classes have no power at all back then, they were just invisible tools that tilled the land. She was a teenager and she managed to get in front of the heir to the throne Absolutely amazing. For the journey to see the Dauffin, Joan cuts her hair into a signature pudding bowl and put on male clothing for the first time triggering for me A tunic, a hose and tightly laced leggings. Yeah It is what I wore for most of the naughties. Yeah, hose are like a HOSE. But dressing as a man became one of the most controversial things she did that really just was not done at the time. Obviously it was for safety reasons. We'll go into more of that later. When she arrived at court, the room was packed full of courtiers decked out in the highest of fashion sent the word that she was coming and thought they'd have a laugh by pranking her. The Dauphin wore a disguise of a simple black cloak amongst all the richly dressed courtiers, but Joan went straight to him and kneeled before him, recognizing him as the one true heir to the throne. How would she know what he looked like? He wass a pile of potatoes. A' thinly slicing potatoes in the corner. grraing cheese. gettinget that roux just right. It had to be him. It's going to be him a Po cheese. We don't know. It all plays into this divine knowledge that she had. I mean, you could argue that if you're the only one dressed in black, you sort your prank really, You've sort made yourself conspicuous. others that she knew what you looked like or they may have met before when a celebrity wears a cap and glasses they're like, don' look at me. D don't at me but exactly. Exactly. A crucial bit of context is that France was in a really desperate state. They needed to switch things up somehow or face being ruled by the English forever. Imagine that. So the verdict was basically worth a pop The Duphin gave Joan an army and they rode off to a town in the center of France, Orleans. So this teenage girl off the blagging to the Duphin, kneels in front of the right guy and leaves with an army and goes to Orleans, a besieged town in the middle of France. It hadd been under siege for seven months, but with Joan as the figurehead back the English in nine days. kick ass. Joan became a sensation. I don't know why anyone was surprised. Have anyone met a teenage girl? they can track Harry Styles to any airport based on half sightings and rumourors on Snapchat, off course they could lead an army into war. She helped drive rapid French victories at Jaot, Beauoncy and Pateay, and suddenly impossible no longer looked impossible Joan then urged Dauhan to go to Rim where he would be crowned in the cathedral with her at his side and he was crowned on the seventeenth of july fourteen twenty nine. So listeners to I've had some skeptical eyebrows thrown to my left here by Ola. That she went on to do all those extra victories. So she led all of those armies. Don't you find that amazing Very You love to tear another queen down, don't you? Rely. You didn't actually do any killing though, did? She was like a ring girl. So she's just torn down a queen. never known the a. has an effect on me. I hatealise misogyny It's a good job, me and Ed are creepy allies Let's talk about feminism afterwards over a wine girl. Touch my Willie.. It was the peak of her career and the moment that made her unforgettable. In barely a year, a peasant girl from Don Remi had dragged an uncrowned exile to his consecration and helped reverse the momentum of war that had seemed lost. But She also upstaged him. When he was being crowned, the crowds were more interested in Joan than in Charles. Charles didn't love that. and that's not the first time a Charles has been upstaged by a younger woman and resented it I wantoed the Daphin thought about staging a high speed car j. A him things became murkier. Joan wanted to press on, take Paris, keep the momentum going and drive the English out of France altogether. Charles was more cautious. then in fourteen thirty, during fighting near Comampagna, disaster. She was pulled from her horse by Burgundian troops and captured And then she was sold to her greatest enemy, the English. Do you know what it's bad? Charles, who'd been her patron did nothing to save her Joan, on hearing she was to be handed to the English, hurled herself from a hundred foot tower, but the double ared bastard survived I She just got back up was like fuck I forgot I'm immortal and bless. Legend, can't kill myself. You'd think the English might have just executed her, but they were careful because that would have made her a martyr. So instead they set about discrediting her, putting her on trial for heresy. If they could prove that her visions were false or diabolical, then Charles' coronation could be questioned, leaving room for them to seize power basically did to Joan of Arc what Justin Baldoni tried to do to Blake Lively. Given the circumstances, Joan performed astonishingly well under questioning. She was the only woman in the room far the least educated and at nineteen years old, the youngest by many years. The charges included claiming divine guidance, disobeying the church, making prophecies, leaving her parents without permission, attempting suicide, and persistently wearing men's clothing. Guilty of being a genen Z then Eventually, Oh ye got change it or get rid of him Eventually, under threat of torture and execution, Joan abdured. She agreed to submit, put on women's dress, and signed a confession. She couldn't read or write, so she just placed an X in the signature box. In Rouen, on the thirtieth of may fourteen thirty one at just nineteen years old, she was burned at the stake. And yet for all the efforts spent destroying her, in some ways, Joan prevailed The English position in France continued to deteriorate, and by fourteen fifty three they had lost nearly all their French territories. Charles VII eventually authorized a retrial. Joan's mother appealed for justice, and the original proceedings were declared corrupt and unjust. Catholics embraced her as a martyr. French nationalists made her the symbol of resistance and freedom, Feminists claimed too. In nineteen twenty, nearly five hundred years after her death, the Catholic Church canonized her. Joan of Arc endures because she was so many things at once Peasant, visionary, soldier, heretic, martyr and saint JenX then Whether you like what she stood for or not, she was remarkable the life in nineteen years Now we have the envelopes around the table. If you've come here because you might be interested in Joan of Arc or you've just come in, this is your first episode you've listened to, because you're fans of the guests. Whatever, we have these envelopes. Inside there might be a surprise, there might be a confirmation. Nonetheless, there will be information. Who has envelope number one? I have envelope number one you're being very quiet on I the skepticism is Oh, it's building. It's building. I can tell you lo everything in. I can tell you're not keen She was a feminist icon who smashed through glass boundary where you say that. It probably doesn't need saying, but medieval France wasn't a very feminist place. The options available to women were incredibly limited, especially peasant girls like Joan, but Joan just didn't care She never seems to have thought even for a moment, I can't do this because I'm just a poor girl. Her conviction that God had chosen her personally to intervene in war was all that mattered to her and completely overrode the rigid hierarchy of gender and class that defined medieval society I mean How do you get there from that? Yeah. Like the class thing, okay, that's pretty cool for someone to be like a peasant to going to do that. whyy the feminists claiming her? she was a badass bitch that defied gender norms of the time. Well, I think I think I didn't like listen to her. Yeah, but peas no no one listened to peasants overall. So I think all peasants. Yeah she doesn't name both. Yeah. And she didn't like she's a Marxist feminist. her body to do anything Yeah, I rate her for that. Virgin, Virgin Vir. they actually checked She was only answer about them once. Yeah, I don't think it was very scientific, but she was she was examined to confirm that she was a virgin. Yeah ye. I don't like her I look because she's a virgin. No, not because she's a virgin I don't like She's given me and I don't know why, but she's givven me like superstar Olympic Wonderkin. She's giving me like peoplee's Wonderkin vibe. No, but you know what? she she risked all of that ended up getting burnt to death. Yeah, but that's a cool way to go. And when we's making yourself love. Okay we're gonna go, but she went out in literally a blaze of glory.een years old. I don't think any nineteen year old woman. She's right here's the problem. in this story, I see myself as like peasant number four So when she's doing all this cool stuff, I'm back like tilling the soil for more leeakks and potatoes. Oh And that's why ye, I'm jealous. I'm not perfect. That's why I said Wonderkin, I'm inherently untalented. don like I don't like her. I don't like her at all. She would have inspired you. How can you imagine I think someone fanies her. She's busy. She goes to different schools. You won't even look at me. She I't I'turt you.aybe being so frigid Why don't we just lie under the duvets and cuddle but not have sex? It a box of beetles. o, It wasn't a box. I won't put my dick in your back and do a no handy kidney bunge. I promise. I didn't say that. I just knew you'd be sitting over breakfast with your peasant family, eating another bowl of griull and they'd be like, you know, Joan's very, very popular in England now. Yeah Yeah, exactly. want say she's the person everybody compared to everyone Like every parent around because she did We're sitting in the village anyore. Iid't have any role models before that are the peasants I want to say this. Some people have the deillusion of a virgin. A Virgin haore, they're the worst ones A Virgin haore? Yeah, the paradoxical quimed bastards. Oh I tell you what she's been described as a lot of things. paradysical quimed b is the first It's not a cent of sci anticipated saying today. I'm just saying some of delusions of grandeour. Some people have it and are like just don't do anything with it. But she had these delusions and she achieved so much from it. she took her delusions to the fricaking next level. Okay here's comm.'t committed to her delusion. We all need a degree of delusion to achieve anything. If you don't believe you're going go out and smash the roof off the gig before you do the gig, regardless of what happens, that is helpful to have that delusion before right So we can sort of weaponize delusion to achieve shit. So maybe that's all she did on a larger scale. One of the most radical ways Joan asserted authority was through wearing men's clothes. She wasn't claiming to be a man. She always referred to herself as Joan Lapusecelle, Joan the Maid. I think I saw Joan the Maid in Glasdow in zero nine. brilliant. But by wearing men's clothes as a disguise, she was able to blend more into the battlefield troubling stuff for a medieval society that followed incredibly strict gender roles and incredibly silly rules about underskirts. During her trial, Joan's interrogator seemed more hung up on her clothes than anything else. To say Joan was on trial for consulting with the devil, you'd think they'd be more concerned about that Less crimes against God, more crimes against fashion Right, Joan's own supporters tied themselves in knots trying to justify her crossdressing. They hastily argued that because Joan's mission came from God, the crossdressing must be fine. But to make things even more difficult, Joan didn't wear peasant men's clothes, but male courtier's clothes. This was during a time when there were sumptuary laws which specifically forbade anyone from a certain class from wearing anything too expensive or aristocratic looking That outrageous, isn't it? It's the reverse of today where you signify a billionaire wealth with a black hoodie and performative hopping onto a tube just like a normal person. Joan's visions were not totally unique. There were a few women around the time who claimed to have been spoken to by God. Notable examples were Marjorie Kemp and Catherine of Sienna, but what set Joan apart was that she centered herself in the message of her vision. The other women were intermediaries whose visions were like, Oh God wants you to put the bins out, Gary. while I stay watching Core. whereereas Jonan was like, I need to put the bins out. Medieval France had a bit of a ponchon for misogyny guys, spoiler alert. manyany times in battle at Orleans when she called on the English to surrender, they would always respond in the same way by calling her Ah and the men who surrounded her, pimps The English commander, Lord Talbot once responded, Go and herd your cattle, you trollop, calling her a deranged little wench. When she was eventually imprisoned, her captors were obsessed with trying to sexually assault her so she would no longer be pure. When she was eventually found guilty and burnt at the stake, the executioner was ordered to rake back the fire once her clothes had burned off to show the crowd her naked female body to prove she was just a woman. She was then returned to the fire and her ashes scattered in the see so no one could use them as relics. Jesus not very nice Joan wasn't exactly a girls girl though. She famously chased away sex workers she found with the men in her army, beating them with the flat of her sword She also dismissed another visionary woman, Catherine Da Roell, who said God wanted Dufan to broak up peace by telling her to return to her housework rather than interfere in politics. Joan basically said, I'm just not like the other girls And she wasn't she was a bit of a thatcher really? girl. She's a bit of a yeah a bit of a pickmy girl Yeahah, the original one Who has envelope number two Re do She was a fanatical bloodthirsty warmonger. Yeah. Wow. She loved God. She was obsessed She was so obsessed. as we know, she was willing to go to war in God's name. Now war is war. it's never pretty and a hundred years war have been going on for decades before Joan came along Joan brought a very intense religious fervour to the equation, like an Armageddon preacher outside a bus station Wars of religion are some of the most dangerous wars. This is sort of boy we were talking about earlier because People are a hundred percent convinced they're doing the right thing. Throughout history, we've continued to pay the price for ideology from the Crusades and the European wars of religion all the way up to contemporary religious extremism. But then atheism gave us Rickya. so it's a lose lose. Jones's siege of Orleans was pretty miraculous after seven long months of battle where the citizens of Orleans faced mass execution if they lost. She secured their safety in just a few days. That is bad ass. All in all, probably a good thing, but Joan did not stop there. She got addicted You know what they say? Once you pop, the funund don't stop. and by pop I mean slaughtering English soldiers. Once she was crowned, Charles VII wanted quite reasonably to negotiate peace, but Joan was obsessed with taking Paris and badgered the Dauphin until he gave her a small army Paris had the strongest fortifications in Western Europe outside Constantinople, but Joonan's certainty and God's will continued to collide with her appetite for violence And as you can guess, it ended in disaster Anyone ever been confident in something they absolutely cannot do? I always thought I'd be really good at learning another language having never done it at all. And sometimes like when I'm watching a film with subtitles, you know, and it becomes like so easy to read them, you just think maybe may be Koreans going in. I've had that. I can turn this off. ye Yeah, I don't need. take the stabilizers off bank te not help Ed, I'm a very confident person in general. Apart from polyopterology, stududy of Beatles. Oh It does not matter what I say youve fuck a beetle onster. Come to me, my beatle friends. my seacred wanking sweet. You guys are going be laughing in the upprising Stage What was that? that pipe in my anus. stop it Oh o God. it really is. You know that don't you I have never I'm not gonna Don't say I've never shanked a beatles. There are no beatles inside of my body right now. o. What about you, Ollliie? you're confident person. You must have had misplaced confidence at some point. I really like singing and I actually thought I was a good singer, but apparently I'm not. I've been told by many people but Oh I know, I'm actually really upset. L your husband's a musician, it' be nice to. Yeah. ye. I was like, Oh let's a duette and he was like, I don't think so. You're also very good at accents as well. He doesn't sound anything. Anyway, after the Battle at Paris, Joan continued to seek out violence by effectively becoming a freelance soldier. She gathered a company of two hundred soldiers, including her brother Pierre and roamed the countryside near Paris, pretty much just starting fights. This is not like let your brother join nance. Exactly. know Normally it's like let your brother join the F as side, but she was just going around creating these free companies, the French called them. And they were actually a real problem, peopleople thinking that they were doing the right thing. It was just an excuse for violent mercenary thug activity For someone as celebrated as the Holy Maid of France, joining the ranks of these free companies was not a good look It's like me as a leftfty liberal immediately joining GB newews as some as my old tweets resurface. Smashing humummus on Friday, smashing the gangs on Monday. This hey cocktail of religious fervor and bloodlust extended well beyond the war with England. At one point, Joan caught wind of a reformist sect called the Hussites who disagreed with Catholic doctrine She wrote them a letter accusing them of heresy, saying they were practically on a level with the Saracens, i. e. Muslims. She said that if they did not abandon their beliefs, she would attack them and relieve them either of your heresy or your life That's funny. sounds exactly like the hate mail I get from Nick G Rimomhaw Joan saw herself as part of a pan European violent struggle for religious truth, clearly getting jacked up on power and the threat of violence. Any hobbies you've taken too far anyone? Well I. Just say it to him. Dsw for me, Beatles. a little potato c I had a little beetle wedding and my little beetle bride. Fly, I've now changed my tune. I think Joan's a bully. before we movee deflecting nowough I'm not deflecting, we can talk about my beetle bride soon. Beetle bride. I think she's a bully now. I think she's a religious bully. anyways.. Now but I came back when I heard about how she died with the coals, I just didn't get an opportunity to say it. My weird hobby is playing the band Joe Oh I love that my banjo. Yeah. And when I just started tells her the b. I got overconfident with it when I was in school and I told my teacher about it and she got me to performm it in front of the whole primary school. But no one knows what good banjo sounds like, so everyone in the school was just like, brilliant, that was really good ittle village in Essex, we don't know what it should be. And they were a bit scared of you. They were also scared of me because my beat army that have behind me Oh boy. L of hobbies that girls really like. Band jokes. me and Steve Owen doing the color of every flag and all the prime numbers. Pussy foraQ Really any hobbies you take? don't I feel like standups don't have hobbies because standups are a hobby. You don't have h. begin like that, stand up Oh just try that and then there's no room for anything else. Mine's pathetic. It's like book. The whole house is taken over with books. I've got like a It's reading a book a hobby. I thought that's just like a normal. Collecting I would collect collect You collect your would I collect Are they valuable Some of them first editions.'s your last book. Probably the first edition of the L Sentimental Education by Flobear my favorite French novelist, probably volumes that or Bruno's Dream by Iris Murdox signed with her first edition You run attomic Habits. I have actually. No no, my wife has. My wife's got her own little shelf with million do you can make a billion dollar b She them. She was. now she's flourished into full literature. Okay, so she only one thing that can definitely be said of Joan though is that she was never cynical. Most military noblemen back then basically got involved in war because they wanted to capture someone important so they could demand a ransom. Whereas Joan, she just genuinely wanted to win. She was in it for the love of the game. Unlike me, I won't do anything without my rider, Vaseline Ket and WH Oren' C collective poetry. That's the Ven diagam am I sitting, guys, you're just gonna to get on board with it. Who has envelope number three? me sorry She was unbelievably charismatic, convincing and tactical despite having literally zero education. She was a young woman and a peasant and she was extraordinary because she transcended these limitations the only way she really could have by convincing a bunch of older posh white guys to listen to her. This is probably the most impressive quality of Jones, what one historian called her astonishing ability to compel credence. Joan could really get what she wanted out of people. An early example is when she went to Vaouleer to convince the local commander to escort her to meet the Dauphin. Initially he laughed her off, but somehow Joan convinced him to take her seriously. It's like me pitching to radio four I want to do a series about Flowbear. he queued up beautifully, thank you. Then of course, she convinced the Duphan himself for most of his court. The master armorer was so charmed by her that he made her a bespoke armor for her adolescent female frame court artist painted her an iconic banner One noble saw her training with weapons and was so impressed he gave her one of his finest horses. Horses back then were genuinely more expensive and more precious than most humans that would ride them. Anyone good at being charming? Maybe she wasn't that charming. It's just that they underestimated women. and they were like, well what can she do? Just come in, ye, tellell us your story. There's no way anyone around this table could blag their way into King Charles's Palif from he' just come out of counll state guy I want to speak to King Charles or the prim Minister I' got an idea of how to win the war humoring her a bit because they didn't know what else to do because they were losing. They would just turn her away. peas teenager peasant teenagers turned up and got laughed at. And yet within a few hours or a day, she's in front of the guy running. I think Chrp does get you really far, even in whatever industry, you could be talented to a certain amount But I think charm is both being fifty to sixty percent. Do you think? Yeah? I know a lot of young people that are bell ends. It can be dangerous though becausecause I studied this when when I was in my previous career, which is trying to get the best ideas possible to make a market or advertising campaign. We discovered there was a horrible bias towards charming people's bad ideas. Interesting. So non charming people don't necessarily have the worst ideas. they're just not very good at conveying them or making people like them enough. So an ad agency introduced a radical step that would have the brainstorm saying this is our client our clients, I don't know, motophone When you think and everyone come up with aate o youre so you're so funny, greatreat idea, Ed. But then afterwards there was an anonymous email portal where the less confident, less charming people, if you like more int submit their ideas by email, guess where all the best ideas came from ququiet less charming people. So charm can be dangerous. Joan was probably the first female perspective that ever had to because she forced them to listen to her. She was probably the first female perspective that ever properly listened to and been forced to consider. And that must have been so radical for the patriarch, is that the right term? at the time, like the Daphin wass the Po people They'd never come into contact with the female perspective said confidently with a massive blood hungry ego I think Joan had everything that the patriarchy and the dophamar people had On top of that, she had a completely different way of looking at things andd been she'd been a voyur to the way that the status quo worked in those days. So she had seen how everything worked and picked it apart and seen apath herself. probablyrobably very intelligent as well emotionally. Yeah I they were isn't that sorry, go on. just blown away by the fact that they were listening to a girl who wasn't Actually She was a nut job though Yeah, but they were like, wow, I'm actually listening to a girl without thinking about wanting to have sex with her. May wasite them. But also that's a sign's of that's a symptom of like psychosism and people who are like criminally insane is being charming. It's one it's like a clinically it's something they've all a lot of them have in common that they are very very. charming people Yeah. Ted Bundy was very charming. Very like There's a pathology here. I think you might be right. She also knew how to use language tactically. She consistently called Charles the Dauphin, meaning heir or prince. a subtle but frequent reminder that he needed her help to actually become king, like how my wife Lindsey calls me her pre lesbian husband That's a fucking great joint. still in ten years let's see. A big aspect of Joan's charisma was her bravery. One historian described Joan's superior, irresistible and infectious bravery which rippled through the army and bolstered morale so much so that some soldiers even agreed to continue fighting without beinged That's how much they believed in Joan and her message, quite triggering for most comics around the table who do a lot of shit for free.ust hoping. She clearly charmed a lot of her interrogators too. One of them threatened to quit when he heard she might be subjected to torture, only to be thrown in prison himself In the end, the English didn't just execute her, they tried to destroy her reputation entirely As historian Dan Snow puts it, never before or since have the English gone to such trouble to defeat, discredit, humble, shame and eradicate the legacy of a teenage girl. It was a final gruesome compliment in which she can have taken What a life. What a badass. But now we must come to the vote She was young and female, Yes, it was impressive, but she was also an absolutely bloodthirsty warmonger. There's lots to think about Alla Labib, I'm coming to you first Joonanah Bc, evil or genius This is really hard one because I can't call her evil because she's obviously got like issues. So it I feel like if I call her evil it's like a little bit ableist, isn't it I see what you're saying. It was no confirmed diagnosis to knock yourself out. Yeah, so I think if I didn't have any knowledge of she might like be a little bit unwell mentally, I would say il But for what she's achieved, come on guys, she's a genius. Gius. She played the system. She did play the system, she played it really well. Lily, well I've got your attention I mean, I think I know how you're gonna to go, but She's giving me good greta vibes. I think she's amazing. And I think she hadght to be bloodthirsty. You're not going to win wars by being like squeamish about arms being chopped off, are you? So what's the biggest most impressive thing about Joan Art that swun you towards Bol haircut enough. That has lasted for centuries. We had a friend at school who was called Bll because we saw a photo of him with a Bll haircut once. And I met him the other day and he's like thirty eight now. I'm like, Hey Bl No, but we just call him that. That's not his name. That's how powerful that head is. power historical title. Thanks to Janet. Thanks to Jane. J Ed. evil hate her. hate her guys. Don't like her at all. No a of them. know we know she's going to be genius it's not fucking fuck. And that's a real punch to the Thorax. summer doesn't st. Ed, so you're going evil. Seriously. Evil. You're not how the other our unanimous Janus girl boss? No No's wait for here. Here's my thing. So already established I'm the peasant boy, I'm unrearkable. I'm sitting at home and mum's like, o Joan has had another win. This is more about you. So this is he's projecting base I will be the projector. Secondly, when she started her, I can't remember the name of the armies the two hundred people strong armies that were just roaming the French countryside.. But she started her own little army roaming around the countryside, whacking like starting fights for no reason. That is an egotist. that is someone that wants to start a fight, That is someone with a bit of anger management What I'm suggesting here is Jon of A found a vehicle for all of her desire for power, desire for greed, desire for bloodlust. And ited we happened to associate good things with what she did. And when she told that, when that other girl was like, I've also had a little message from God, she was like, fuck you, Janice. That tells me that she was protecting her pedestal I think I think she's just she's found it she's no better than one of those megaurch preachers that takes money off people. She's found a vessel for her crazy to fit into. I don't use the word crazy lightly. I should probably she has found a vessel for her. That's the way the world had been created by men. that's the slot she fit into. There wasn't many options for her. But she ended up being no better than them She didn't send the ladder down for her sister. I she l shorthand. she could have been so different. She couldn't send the ladder down. She got set fire. lady came to. I just think she is I think she's evil and I think she fs's. Everyone's view is valid on this. It's. It's not unanimous, but Joan of Arc is Gius. Thank you so much to my guests Ed Hedges, O Aibib and Lily Phillips, the other one. If you want to be notified as soon as new episodes drop, make sure you're subscribed to Evil Genius on BBC Sounds and have push notifications turned on so you can hear more about disgusting peasants like Joonan of Arc and also me, disgusting peasant Russell Canain. Aur revoir Could you talk about being invisible or double denim? Who knows what's next on the new series of just a minute? Belting out a rendition of G the back topic our panel has just a minute to speak without hesitation, deviation or repetition. Join Zoe Lions, Desi Birch, Paul Mertton, and many more for the new series of Just a minute with me, Super Pkins because it's true L listen on radio forward b And the full box set is available now on BBC Sounds.