Return to England and Verdict

Warning, this episode contains strong language Genius, Genius, Genius Welcome to Evil Genius. I'm Russell Caine. Imagine if Vernon K shagged a ham sandwich pretty much me. This is the show that takes a dead legend from history, exhumes them from their grave, and then commits some serious necro bibliophilia on their corpse. Each week, my panel will re examine the life of a historical figure by a series of uncomfortable facts and at the end of that debate, my panel must vote one way or the otheril Or genius. Today's legend is the subject of the most famous railway crime in history and no this isn't the cost of a season ticket on Avante. To some he's the cheeky Chappie whose punishment far outweighed his crime. to others, he's a violent fugitive whose actions shouldn't be lionised just because he speaks with a cockny accent and was played by that fit one in the big budget BBC drama they made about the case It is, of course Ronnie Biggs The panel today is Lamal Germaine, Louise Jng and Peter Retner Sammy. Welcome. We always go with one of the rat pack and part of the eyes. That's how I remember Retin Samy. one of the rat packs. Okay. His art enemy is Corneia D. Martin. What I way to remember him I think of Ren and Sammy Davis Junior. Yeah.'ve ever pretty my but I'm the only one who never gets know't in Afric Sammy I've heard foy. kick us off. I want to ask the panel, haveave you ever been involved in any minor crimes that you happy to admit? Anyone else I got done by a boss because I was trying to put a footall magazine inside a newspaper on my paper I' it for that What a football magazine? Yeah, so on you'd do your paper around in the morning, you'd load up and then you could slip in like a magazine in a newspaper you were delivering. Oh I'll deliver that and end up with a free magazine. In other words, theft. Oh right. got? P c bad here. I got been done for drunk and disorderly. It like I've been done for drunk and disorderly. ye. Yeah, I know what the inside of a cell looks like as well. But I wasn't drunk You're just disorderly? Well, I needed a that makes it worse. No, I don't think it is disly. Sober and disorderly to arrested for being sober and disorderly. I I was pissing down an alley, right Now Liverpool straight. okay. You know, the police station is down an alley You won't even know it's there. So I thought I was going out of the way of the people down in ally who be pissed into the police station, Mess. She opened the door. She opened the door and like clicked the button and said you're under arrest. And I was like, for what? And she was like, you're pissing in a public place. And I was like, well, I'm done into her dream And they arrested me and they kept me in a cell for the night, but I didn't have anywhere to say that night so all. That free It was good. And then they give me break me accepted price. You get a free ber tracksuit, I kept that. you. Yeah, yeah, keep it that's nice. Yeah. So like when you're traveling business and they give you pajamas. Yeah, I kept it. Anyway, Ronny Biggs He did a lot worse than any of that. He was a great train robber and the man who's thirty six years on the run turned him from a petty criminal into an anti establishment hero and world famous celebrity orn Ronald Arthur Biggs in South London on august eighth, nineteen twenty nine. He was the youngest of five children in a working class family, and his life of petty crime started with pilfering the contents of bombed out buildings during the war He had his first court appearance in nineteen forty five at the age of fifteen where he was accused of stealing pencils. Why? We can do draw food for your family. More minor offences and convictions followed and a short stint in the RAF ended in dishonorable discharge when he broke into a chemist's. learened his lessons, Cndoms are better than pencils. He married his girlfriend, Charmaine in nineteen sixty, and he settled into married life working as a carpenter After the birth of his second son, the family wasn't rolling in money, so Biggs approached a man he'd met in prison, Bruce Reynolds for a loan. Reynolds was planning an ambitious train heist and asked Biggs if he wanted the job Bigs later said, I've been married and going straight for three years, and then along came the invitation to take part in the train robbery I asked for twenty four hours to think it over. I suppose I needed about twenty seconds montage All of a sudden, my midlife crisis of micro brewing doesn't seem so bad guys On his thirty fourth birthday, the eighth of august nineteen sixty three, Ronnie Biggs took part in probably the most famous crime in British history, the Great train Robbery A gang of fifteen men, led by Reynolds, hijacked the Glasgow to London Royal Mail trarain thirty miles north in Buckinghamshire. How would you time that today? can kick in a bus replacement service and rob it of its refreshing hand towels? They made off with two point six million do in used bank notes. That's worth over fifty million in today's money, and it was also the last time A working class person was spotted in Buckinghamshire Within a matter of weeks, eleven of the fifteen gang members had been arrested. Biggs was among the first to be caught. They were tried in nineteen sixty four and they were sentenced to thirty years imprisonment. Ronny Biggs spent fifteen months behind bars, that was all because in july nineteen sixty five he escaped Wandsworth prrison in South London And he spent the next thirty six years on the run, first in France and in Australia before settling into Brazil. I' to call my agent, that is literally better than my tour. He su He suffered several strokes in the late nineties which left him unable to speak and decided that he wanted to come home His youngest son Michael said there was good medical attention available in Brazil. The truth is he came back in the end because he was depressed and he missed England You got to be really depressedt here to want gravy over mojitos and kawarea and shit. Imagine that, I'm just so sick of perfect physical people on beaches. I want gravy and racism, please. Home Io. In may two thousand one, Ronnie Biggs arrived back in London. He was immediately arrested and spent the next eight years in prison. with his health failing further. He was released in two thousand nine on compassionate grounds and lived the rest of his life in a care home Eventually pegging it on december eighteenth, twenty thirteen, aged eighty four. What a life. W. So I rush through that. this is Eil Genius and all of my panelists they have an envelope each envelopes one, two and three. And in that envelope will be some sort of fact that unpacks the story gives us some more facts, maybe confuses us a bit. So who has envelope number one? I've got that. One second Ronnie Biggs was part of a violent gang who pulled off one of the biggest heists in history.. I mean it's weird that how some criminals become heroes, but let's face the facts. Just before three AM, on the eighth of august, nineteen sixty three the twelfth carriage, Glasgow to London Royal Mail trarain came to a halt at a red signal on a lonely stretch of train king him she. It wasn't real signal, It was an ambush and the great train robbery had begun The gang had rewired the signal box to show red and they covered the correct green signal with a glove. I should have used one of my teenage socks and there's no lightking through those They'd all so. I just love every dir you thing, Pete. I just love. He's loving it over there. I pid to allow to pest into the f loloaded it with my vigilante age. They also cut the lines to the track side phone. As the robbers boarded the train, the driver Jack Mills put up a fight and was hit over the head with a ch. Directly behind the engine was the high value packages coach, coincidentally what I call my Calvin Kleines. I say Calvin Klines, but I actually have Calvin Classics that I got off the market. you remember those? They're the ones mum used to get. Yeah the same got You'd let the word Calvin stick out. not let y'alls see the word classic It was a gold mine filled with postal bags packed with cash. The plan was to unouple the engine an HVP coach, get immunized ladies from the rest of the train and drive them a short distance to the spot where the loop could be unloaded. There's not many human papalenoma virus That's them. Very raread lesbians. You've got really thin hands. let me Ohy hell they're thin. Long fingers, lesbians? Yeah. All right You lesbiian' fingers continue to grow throughout their lives. fingers. You've ever seen an eighty year old lesbian Tck their hands the G spot, it's all late v a lesbian hands. I keep dropping lesbians Historically this moment, we known as Louise's finger Yeah. a thin finger. at the Natural History Museum actually got to make sure that there was a plaque. A long skele little finger like the originaling going like that Sure hass not even that big. What's that big? you get it. I think the finger ap l's just've running inch since we've been talking it. Yeah. Ring leadader Bruce Reynolds had planned the heist precisely with each man assigned a specific role. Ronnie Big's job, he only had one job, right had to find someone who could drive the train after they got the real driver off, right? So he identified a retired train driver. We never found out who this retired train driver was, but his job was to recruit this retired train driver. But when the old boy cloned into the engine, he realized it was a newer model And he couldn't operate it. Oh was That's annoying. We've all been there. I don't know any of the panel have ever had a one night stand with a younger woman. I haven't. I married one. Jack Mill the original driver. Jack Ms, the original driver, half dazed with blood running down his face, was made to drive the train to Bredigo Bridge, which sounds really exotic, but it's lateent Buzzard There, the greatreat train robbers formed a human chain to transfer one hundred and twenty mail bags of cash onto a waiting truck. before making their getaway. They weren't expecting it to be that much money. I think this is one of those great things that's accidentally great. They just knew there wouldd be cash on it, but they were like, dudes, there's the equivalent of fifty million. They couldn't believe it. They left driver mills Co driver, David Whitby and five postal workers tied up to the HPV coach, warning them not to raise the alarm for thirty minutes The gang drove to a nearby farm where they planned to lie low until the dust settled. When they arrived, even they were amazed to find out just how much swag was in the bags. How would you celebrate if you found out you'd accidentally stolen fifty million? acccidentally orr accidentally earn it or would you do fifty million if you suddenly add it tomorr. I'd Well, you can't be extravagant but I'd want to be Like I'd probably I've always wanted to own like a hot air buing Really? You So you can't be extravagant, you do the most extravagant. Well, who's gonna to look at a hot air? Is it a balloon takaking off from Teter's Garden? I'm not. yourour roadx is dropped off, d'reuring takeoff. I'm rocking up a. Like I imagine one clubing with all the women your He there B that You're gonna piss off the sides No but get a driver as well so like because they're really hard to drive. apparent. I've done the research on it. likeike actually getem one. Do you think that would work So dangerous. I was in the clou if you were like, I'm just saying, I've got air balloon. How big is the basket? The basket can fit him like, 'cause I've been in one. Okay. The basket can fit like thirty people. Really? Yeah, thirty. You look how defensive you' getting like a normally hot airs? No yeah it's a good. You would have six of in the hot airball was if I knew how to fly or if there was a driver. Well, you need a hot female driver to not be self conscious. Yeah exactly. I imagine you wanted to watch the ro say I'm just describing your mind. Imagine the altitude was too high for your penis to work. What? yeah that think? I don't know. Yeah altitude dickness. How would celebrateickness? How would you celebrate? Oh I've made it out, Peter. It's not real. I dickness. Peter's like, that sounds horrible but I could How would yeah I want to say I'd do something for the community, but I'll be real. I think I'd just do some frivolous couple of bite toletts. Yeah Yeah, I would do Do you know I've always wanted to do like a like a hip hop video Well youre gonna do it David Brent and spend all of your win on the indulgent music. look at that. justed to do that. I was like R, he spent all the money on him crazy for yeah, just like cause But then they'd then they'd be like that looks like that guy that Let them see Yeah. the money's gone. Yeah The money's gone. because if you get manged that, then you will go to number one instantly because you become like a cult Yeahah,, of course. That's the thing. with this generation here, you gott to think about how to make more money. That's what I was thinking youve gotta be clever with it.oney you don't need more money fifty million, come on. It's fifty million a lot now. Y fifty m doing Well it at Cv at night. cover. I get you out We should out fifty million. transf inger extension. just picked up an ITV s you know J. I don't know. S fifty million.n't than a lot is you couldn't wouldould you be set for life these days? a go yeah. I think fifty million mound. Do you just buy free ten million mound houses and rent those out? Yes, you can just live off the interest or whatever. Think about what Whatould you buy? you make then mind? I'd go from well I'd go from being like taxer rich to my mind The worst thing is if you like if I find out you had fifty mill, I would be then like, would Louise give me some? Am I in that?ould you wouldt tell anybody? That's not quite what the great train robbers did. Do you know what they did? They got to the safe house, they cracked open a few beers and they started playing monopoly with the real cash they'd just stolen. Oh, that's hilarious Yeah. That's exactly like my stag do. We definitely did not go to Ibita And empty our current accounts on KT. We played board games and talked about how much we respect women in the unstoppable rise of the Green Party. But they'd made a huge mistake. Before they left, they told the people on the train, whatever you do, don't raise the alarm for thirty minutes, which immediately gives a geographical radius. It's like me say Don't call the police until we've reached Croydon. I mean until we're out of the way. So the police knew just to search a thirty minute radius. How thick can you be They went their separate ways after their cut or drink, as they called it, and they made another massive blunder. There was supposed to be a second team that arrived to burn the farm to the ground, and it didn't happen. Maybe they just had respect for the unfinished game of Monopoly. I wouldn't move pieces personally if I saw them So when the police found the la, the robbers were gone, but their fingerprints were everywhere. They'd not worn gloves. The final arrest was made just six days after the hist, Ronnie Biggs was taken in because his fingerprints had been found on a ketchup bottle. It's the most literal red handed catching I've ever seen in my life It's just there was no attempt to cover up the crime at all. I think we say great train robbery, but really it's quite accidental Three of the gang members have never been found. so we know that fifteen people robbed this trade, but we don't even know who the final three were. They' never been named, found, ever, just vanished in history. And it's believed that one of those was the ones that assaulted the driver, Jack Mills. Now it was a relatively unviolent robbery. they didn't carry guns or anything, but they did attack Mills and he never fully recovered and didn't work again. and he died seven years later from leukemia at age sixty four David Whitby, twenty five at the time of the robbery, died from a heart attack, age just thirty four. There's no suggestion that that's but still they both met early deaths, and only ten percent of the two point six million equivalent fifty today that was stolen was ever recovered. But when the Great Train robbery happened, it split the country down the middle One half saw the robbers as working class heroes who'd given the establishment one in the eye, whereas the other half saw it as a scandalous attack great British institution, even an assault on the monarchy itself, it being the Ryal maail. When the gang was jailed in nineteen sixty four, the judge said to deal with this case leniently would be a positively evil thing But when most of the robbers got thirty years, there was genuine shock because there'd been no fatality. The gang didn't have guns They decided not to carry them because they knew tough sentences would be attracted if they carried them Despite this, their sentences were longer than those handed down to murderers and rapists. And the year before the same judge had reduced the sentence of a criminal who' shot a van driver during a robbery from fifteen years to ten. So this is political sentencing. an example. It's crazy Graham Green, the famous author, no less, wrote to the telegraph, Am I one of a minority in feeling admiration for the skill and courage behind the G train robbery? More important, am I a minority in being shocked by the savagery of the sentences? It was the telegraph's strongest condemnation of sentences until their criticism of the joke writing in my last stand up tour. But Graham Greene wasn't in a minority to lots of the public. The robbers were folk heroes. so guysys, if you were a judge, are there any crimes that you would immediately sign life in prison? Do you know the one that I realized yesterday, these people deserve the death penalty But you know whenone when someone calls you and you just miss it by a fraction of a second?. Immediately call them back in thea't p The phone back. And you They're punishing you I won't answer. I'm going not answer back. And then someone arrests them. You didn't answer the phone have a welfare check on this person' not picking up? Lamar, who would you send down and what for? Do you know what? annoys me? Maybe this is just me You know when only get the tube in London, S someone goes on the train and they stand right by the door, even though it's like packed, everyone's trying to come in. Oh I did that Yeah. Do you do that today? What sort of sentence we talking I don't know, life is five to seven. No life, man, it might have to life life. Yeah. It so much. standand close. Itise so much, man. people mean to move down and they block the door. You you know when ye, you know when you come in and it's just like, yeah, they just I've got my position. I'm just gonna stay here. Oh God, that's me. The early standards bother me is we're like seven minutes get up and stand by the do. What are were gonna do Well Walk out while it's still moving. Yeah ye yeah. See, I don't get up until the train stops. That's it because I'm still like fully relaxing B beep and I'm out. I know a girl that got the ick because a guy lost his foot in on the train. Really? Yeah. Aarently that's a thing. The by lost his foot in and she was like you repuls me on. I think that's I thinks he's good that he's discovered that early because someone that can get the ick from you losing your foot in. That's not a partner for life. You're going to grow old together. You're both gonna start having falls. So we you can gonna do get the ick when we're in our seventies She know support me. that was her. You can't support me Yeah She sounds like a really liberating. my manant to physically home That's my your sentry.. It' your wife you Back to Ronnie Biggs, he was only a small cog. remember, his only job was to find the drivers. He was a malfunctioning cog in the machine He failed to do that. He has the easiest job. He still messed it up He also claimed that he wasn't violent during the robbery. He said there's a difference between criminals and Crooks. Crooks steal Criminals blow some guys' brains out. I'm a crook. Do you agree with that? Crooks and criminals Yeah's's nonces andperbs.. I'm not a nonce, thank you. Envelope number two Okay, he escaped from prison and spent thirty six years on the run hiding in plain sight. even though this is a crimid of That is gen It is genius. thirty This isn't a Lord Luan who had to vanish and never be seen again. Please listen to that episode in this series. Bloody brilliant. Stayed in plain sight never got done That's I think that's clever.. Is it not as simple as just going to a country that can't extradade them. Why didn't Lukean do that? People find a wayit onn the eighth of july nineteen sixty five, just fifteen months after he'd beenentenced Ronnie Biggs escaped from Wandsworth prison using a homemade rope ladder to scale the walls. Fellow inmates blocked the prison guards from getting away on the other side jumped onto the roof of a waiting furniture van and made his getaway. Next stop was Paris, where he spent some of his great train robbery takings on plastic surgery to help himself remain incognito. I might look up the surgeon I could do with looking less like a teamo, Nick Grimshaw. From there, he and his family fled to Australia on forged documents and he blended into the expat community as carpenter. Terry Cook If you had to have a false identity, what would it be? the ma or would you I think I'd just go for white man, you know. I'd milk the privilege. what name would you what name would you go for? my mind I'm going Sam Smith then fully I' called every day th manth. I would go with Sam Smith if I will. I'm going like just the whitest because I just want to see what I can get away with And then I'll probably go Oliver Jenkins or something. Yeah, something like that. And then second probably be like a white woman because you become a white woman. Yeah, man. J just I'll just walk barefoot on the central land for a now. Livia Jenkins. Barefoot on the centraline J for the b. do. Yeah. you seen have you seen these white girls need to stopped, man? Barefot barefoot like where Pete hass piss. It's so' so they can do their earthing and breathwork on the way to find bllack people, we can't get away with that. I would just I think I would choose life in the Maldives as a millionaire O wouldould you not be bored No, I've had a terrible life. I want to put my feet open And like that's where I can't imagine that he would come back from the run in Brazil. like he's found the perfect life In the mal Des. Yeah. Ather love. Have you been Mouldave? I've it's like a place where they'd be like, that's where a criminal would go. But that all what else Maldiv. It's not a traditional criminal hide. What's the one in Spin? That's coston tells. sorry. sorry, I thought I thought everyone I' tell you what. Were going we going. it was Maldiv? Yes, a hold a second. it's not actually Spin at all. No no, but you have a good point though, because they feel like they might expect you to go to like someoneere at the Maldives, right?? No, I think I've never known a criminal hide out in the Maldives and Ill tell you why I can't afford to place one splat of white sand about a kilometer across It hiding places. You're not com see It's just you and Andy the F. Where's L I' hid. You see just tree there. There he is. I can literally see him from where my boats. Did Andy the Fran do something like that at the end aincraft for twenty miles That was a movie. Just on the beach Chile. I don' think it was it was Costa Rico somewere Costa Rica it was like Chile or something these are proble. you got to gowhere can blend it and. Brazil's perfect. Yeah those beaches, high population. If you're going into witness protection, can you just say I want to be a microbiologist? Because you're just gonna have to have like I've woulded up working shoes or or something L I want to reskill. Yeah. ye. Rkill ye,. It's a good chance to be promoted, isn't it? And you get a new identity. Yeah. So after four years, interpol and he fled to Brazil. This time he left his wife and three sons behind. He settled in Rio de Janeiro, where he lived openly as Ronnie Biggs, cashing in on his notoriety. Christopher Picard, who helped him write his autobiraphy, said, There was a feeling that Ron was putting two fingers up at the British' establishment. but he put two fingers up to life in general. You have to remember that he was living in a city where a monkey was once voted into office. Yeah they had like a tempor election, and they decided they'd be better off with a monkey. someone put a monkey out and the monkey got voted in In nineteen seventy four, he agreed to an interview with a journalist from the Daily Express, blissfully unaware that it was a setup Scotland Yard's detective superintendent, Jack Slipper, father of comedian Jack Skipper, flew out no flew out to arrest Bigs greeting him with the words. It's been a long time Either he' is one of the most dedicated detectives he's met ever or he found an amazing loophole to get a free holiday Anyway, respect It looked like Biggs had reached the end of the line, but extraordinarily he managed to give Slipper the slip. They were just about to take him out of the country When the new girl that Bigs was seeing, he was forty four years seeing a nineteen year old called Remundo Di Castro, and I wonder if she had a Brazilian She was declared pregnant. She went I' pregnant And there is a law under Brazilian law that because she was pregnant They could not take bigigs out of the country. so Jack Slipper went back to London alone Genius Why was that? Be Jacks Lber came out and they were just they just cobbled together some sort of arrangement. and they, we're going to get you back to England, put you in the nick But therazilian government stepped in because Ronny Biggs was the father of this woman's child meaning he could stay in Brazil. So was that just convenient timing? or do you thinking knew about that I think think you could sort of pre fertilize in an anticipatory way, but I would say convenient tim with this guy, who knows? Someone might have told him whatever you do get this girl up the Duff ASAP. He was on the run for a long time before he did the research. Probably I love how it all sound like, I don't know what many jack slippers now. It's all gangsters from all that time have those types of names. No the names. Baby baby face, cute boy, slipper. Ronnie Cray. Biggs lived his life as openly as before, raising his young son Michael alone. when Ryemunda left for Europe, he became a single father. In nineteen seventy seven, he even attended a drinks party aboard a Royal Navy frigate that was docked at Rio de Janeiro. Now at that point, if you step foot on a Royal Navy boat, you are technically on British soil. Which he could have been nicked. He wasn't. He had a nice little knees up on this frigate, then went back on shore went yours and carried on with his life. still wasn't arrested. Oh my God. Do you see what I mean about I'm not condoning illeg gualies, but the genius of this is unreal. And then in nineteen eighty one, sixteen years after his escapeed from Wandsworth, three former Scots guards arrived in Rio with a plot to kidnap Biggs. They planned to take him back to the UK to sell their story. They got him as far Aos. Jen they got him out of the country. They put him in a sack And they labeled that sack with snake inside so if this sack was seen moving by immigration, no one would do anything with it. Is it a cartoon? It was. Wh why didn't he say anything? Hey, I mean here he's all taped up and in this s just to get him for the short period to get him onto these. I think they took him on a yacht where they got him absolutely wankkeered on weed and rum. he arrived like comatose in Barbados. So they got him there and as you know, Barbados very strong association with Britain. But the law yet again was on Bigy side. The authorities in Barbados ruled that he hadd been captured illegally and they sent him back to Brazil It iss like the opposite of the great escape, this is the great leave to remain. In the nineties, his old foe, Jack Slipper went back out again to try and coax him voluntarily, but Biggs wasn't interested. What eventually changed his mind was his failing health. He'd had three strokes that meant he couldn't speak and he'd attempted suicide by the time he returned in two thousand one. so his life was done. He got to live his whole life in Brazil living at our open party in He knew full well that he would go straight to prison, but after thirty six years on the run, there wasn't police or court orders or freelance kidnappers that brought Ronnie Biggs back It was homesickness In his autobiography, he said, I hope now to have the opportunity to gaze on England's green and pleasant land and make peace with my homeland. It would also be nice if Arsenal could pick up the odd trophy along the way, but beggars can't be Joosers. quote So still followed the football. He came back Just to look at England, I hope Arsenal would win and then peg it. When you got buried over the Chlton athletic strip? No, wonder what he's ask? No, wow. Did he didid he actually? Ien I watched a thing on last night and he was he had on his te. 'cause you say about him putting two fingers up The thing that I watched at his funeral The wreath was two fingers. That's right, Yeahah. ye. Yeah. that was his favorite' because when when he'd been out of prison to watch the burial of the Rh leader Reynolds a few years before, all the press were there and he turned to the press, even though he had a stroke and he still managed to give him two fingers.. that's how he ended up with a two fingers down the line in celebration of his handy fuck offffery For all his cheeky chappy chucks part, Ronnie Biggs was not a man prone to self reflection or indeed a great deal of remorse. His son Michael said, repentance is a word for priests Peter Madelleson either, apparently best Ronnie himself could manage was, I'm proud to have been one of them. I'm equally happy to have been described as the tea boy. or the brain Do have regrets about the crime? It is regrettable, as I've said many times, that the train driver was injured. what happened to the horses then? No well The horses, the horses that they used they use the horses? was it in the robbery? I thought it was, oh, sorry, maybe I got it wrong. Is it not horses? No P, they weren't on horseback in life. Oh sorry. I thought it was six In my head it was like sixties it was a sixties. Oh was it the sixt? the ninet ninet o yeah yeah. sorry, I you had it. Why who's the guy that rides horses and roob's trains? I thought that was Ronnie. I think Bigs. I been playing re D dead Redemption 's turping. my. I'm sorry I thought this guy was on horse. No Ohes. How did they get there then? Carl it was probably drive there I like your version I'm sorry. Oh' the horse power of the vow. H women. Envelope number three. Oh my go. Every listener feels better about themselves. Envelope number three.. But it's quite nice that you were worried about the horse the welfare. it was like they left and don't come back u I was like, well whatatever happened to those horses quote of the show. Whatever happened to those horses? was got Mrey? From petty criminal to bitit part in a bungled robbery Ronnie Biggs turned himself into an internationally renowned antihero. we're not just the genius of his escape being part of the biggest robbery ever. The missing detail that I haven't shared yet is he went through the money quick. Money r out lly. so he wasn't living it up in Brazil off of his millions how he made money is also genius So the Great Train Robby happenaed in nineteen sixty three, a time when snubbing your nose authority was greeted with more gleed than ten years earer. Oviously everyone was sort of getting into that shit. So the gang became instant folk heroes. Add to that bigig's audacious escape and his untouchable status living openly in Rio de Janeiro, he became an anti establishment god Ronny Biggs leaned into the persona and cashed in Big time He start to get skin and he's like, how can I make money In nineteen seventy eight, he famously recorded No one is Innocent with the seex pistols, a song. It features Biggs on the vocals. He's not a natural. and the lyrics are about Martin Bohann Nazi, the Moo' murderers. and there's a chorus that goes like this. Ronnie Biggs was doing time until he'd done a bunk Now he says he's seen the light and he's sold his soul for punk Yeah Dessi is crazy. I know, I know, I know. He's like he did a That's amazing. In reality, Biggs knew what his brand was and sold his story to whoever was interested. He wasn't allowed to work in Brazil, so he created brand bigigs. He sold his story to the media, posed for photos with tourists, He charged punters forty pounds to come and have a barbecue at his house and sold souvenir mugs and t shirts. One fan described finding Bigg's number in a Rud Janeiro phone book. He phone Bigs. He called him up And then Ronald Bigs went, yeah, pop over, but do you mind buy a copy of your autobography and I'll let you in? this is really unreal He appeared in adverts for underwear Hair replacement treatment, he even made one for a Brazilian security company, and the tagline which he delivered himself next to a Pulside was, if you want to protect your property, listen to the opinion of someone who understands aill about the subject. Eventually his return to the UK was a big PR opportunity. The Sun newspaper brought him back by a private jet and it's claimed paid Bigs tens of thousands of pounds But His life as a fugitive wasn't easy. After he left Australia, one of his sons died in a car crash aged just ten. So it's really hard, he doesn't think he got to attend the funeral or anything. So he had one family that he had to abandon. Later when he was bringing up his youngest son, Michael in Brazil, the one whose birth saved Bigs from being deported, remember Money was in short supply. They were saved, not only by Ronnie making his sex pistol song But his son Michael became a sort of Brazilian equivalent of the Osmans. You know that puppy loved song they called it, puppy. He re recorded that in Portuguese and he became like this little boy band superstar. He was living like the private jet lifestyle aged eight going about in Lambos, headlining music stages. So yeah, the son was working as a pop star.urial man the next level And to be fair to Biggs, although he cashed in on the anti hero persony, it doesn't seem to have been an act. That's just who he was. He was genuinely up yours establishment. He wasn ant anti establishment hero. His legacy might be a complicated one, C manan, fugitive, anti hero and local legend. But There's one thing we can say for certain, as a former commissioner of the Metropolitan pololice said, Biggs added a rare and welcome touch of humor to the history of crime Whereas I add a touch of crime to the history of humour and I won't be taking any questions. So panel, stop the train. It's time to decide Ronny Biggs, evil or genius. Now, normally a criminal is a waste of time because you're criminal or criminal, you're evil. But he never used this cos thing to injure the train driver. He was against violence. He regreted the violence that was used, didn't carry a gun. I wouldn't want to be you guys right now. There's a lot of genius in there, but ultimately is a nasty little toe rag that robed a train So good luck hereeter Rin this Samy. Ronnie Biggs evil genius. Well, I think, you know, live your life really. I think we follow the system a bit too much And he didn't and he lived a very happy life, it sounds like. He regretted the injury of the train driver. He made that very clear which was performed by once a guy that's never been named let alone caught. So what did he do? He stole something or like he stole something. His job was to get the replacement train driver. He was basically just the te boy of the operation. Exactly And he has brought a lot to the British tourism industry probably. he probably has. he probably has. it's one of the names of Britain. you know,rain? I mean,' that Ranny Bigs li. Yeah. Yeah,' right, right Yeah, you know, thats But now we pay I think we paying such a oh, he committed a crime il say he's culturally enriched He's created a narrative.ory story youngsters. Sometimes it takes a bad decision looked at by the British public or looked up by the public to then rise above everyone else and say, I am a genius. Yeah eloquently argued from Ram me they're a genius Ne up, who amm I going to go over for Las for keeping his cards a bit close to chest, I'm going Louise. 's young. I'm kind of of the same thing. I think number one, he could have really thought I've fucked my life up and absolutely lost the plot and he didn't. He was so industrious with how he made a fantastic, adventurous life for himself, an entrepreneurial. and he can't be evil because if you think about it, if you think how much he's been pushhing into criminal, he's not really that criminal ind really because he even messed up the one task that he had, but he's been pushed to the fringe of society because he got made an example of really in amongst that criminal world and hasn't really done anything that bad hasn't commimitted any further badness or he had every opportunity to be if he was bad, he would have done it basically. Yeah There's no evidence of evil behaviour later in his life. goodood point. So he's got to be genius? That's genius and Louis that leaves you on the m Yeah, I'd have to agree He's a genius An reasoning It's even just making the most out of his situation. Like, you know, he just he didn't lie down in Wandsworth. he escaped, which is crazy plic surgery crazy entntrepreneurial Is It's nots just the audacity too be in Brazil with a different face, a new you like just hot wife. Yeah chilling. Yeah. And then's like, ye, I'm just do a punk song and then I'll come back Yeah I come back it's the fact he came back to the UK and he was like, I was just gonna come back now because I just feel like it. Yeah. And that guy, who's that flipper guy came out twice. slliipper. It' captured by a dolphin. It's that the most controversial arrest. like, whyy are you so obsessed? But yeah my finger is here. I don't think he's evil. He wasn't even a big part of the robbery that he's famous for the rest of it was just him trying to escape a life that, you know, this is one bad decision. He regrets what happened to the guy. But yeah. is that the Frank Spencer of crime? Isn't hes like be the be? on a wh? Yeah Well we've reached out. We've reached out conclusion. Ronnie Bigs is unanimously a genius. Amazing. Thank you so much to my guest, Lamal Jermain, Louise Young, and Peter Redar Hami. If you want to be notified as soon as new episodes drop, make sure you're subscried to Evil Genius on BBC Sounds and have your push notifications turned on so that we can stash your ID even quicker than the police finding Ronnie Biggs after he left his fingerprints on a ketchup bottle. That's the man we just voted genius. Well done. Goodbye n The eighth of august, nineteen sixty three, a gang of thieves hold up a British Royal mail trarain on its way from Glasgow to London More than two million pounds were stolen, and Ronnie Biggs was the most famous face of the great train robbery. Daniel Mays reveals the true story of Ronnie Biggs. A train robbery, a prison escape, and thirty six years on the run. Gangster presents The story of Ronnie Biggs. Listen first on BBC Sounds