Roadmap to 2028 and Beyond

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Just like my wife. So thank you for coming and remember to buy Skittles. Shamelessly promote the rainbow, taste de rainbow . Audi has joined and they are becoming serious . No stones unturned, moving forward, raising the bar and the challenge to become better each single race . I've been lucky because I had a lot of great leaders and managers, starting from Jean-Todd, Ross, even Michael Schumato was a great leader. I feel that he was even stronger as a leader than as a driver . Hi everyone, I'm Tom Clarkson and this time on F1 Be on the Grid, I'm talking to a team boss trying to turn a group of great people into winn ers. Mattia Bonotto has seen how it's done. He was at Ferrari in the 2000s when Jean-Todd, Ross Braun, and Michael Schumacher led the way to title after title. So can Matthea do it with Audi ? He and the brand bring ambition and resources which weren't there when the team raced as Saurba. That brings pressure. Audi set themselves the target of fighting for the championship by 2030. Matir admits that's ambitious. But as you'll hear, he's happy to take on that challenge and he's confident that the ingredients needed are being put in place Mattia, it's great to have you on the show again. It's been six years since you were last on. My pleasure to be here. Again, as you said. You don't look a day older. No, but I don't know it's time is flying. Six years I couldn't imagine. How different is your life at Audi ? Because when you were last on you were team principal, you were running all things Ferrari in Formula One. How different is your life now? It's um obviously it's very different because I think different companies and different stage um of the process of developing. So Ferrari is a very settled organization. Audi in F1, not as Audi, but Audi F1 team is really a team that has to become a competitor for the title. So, but it's a long way for us . It's different countries so really different . language, different culture . I've been in Ferrari 30 years, so I knew Ferrari very well. I knew each single person. Maybe by name, I knew each single corner of the company. And now for me, it's a learning process. It's brand new. As we said, different countries, different languages, different culture, different governance. And certainly when you look at the governance in Ferrari compared to the big corporate of Audis, it's a different one, which is not simply different. Doesn't mean what is right or wrong, I think at the end it's uh based on my experience having seen differences get the the most out of it but it's um it's a change on which I I'm happy with because at the end it's uh like restarting with a new challenge , it's enjoyable. Um keep me young. Does it feel like coming home? Because you were born in Switzerland in Lausanne? Yeah, it feels like because it's back to Switzerland, but I'm I'm born and grew up in the French part of the Switzerland, here at Zurich in the German side and in within Switzerland two different cultures at the end, no French and German. So it's it's Switzerland, so it's back to the mountains, the Alps, uh the lakes, um, but um certainly is not as Lausanne, it's certainly a different different area, different culture. Can we talk about Henville and what Audi have have bought in their I mean you said not so long ago that it it it is actually easier to start from scratch than to buy an existing team. What what did you mean by that? comparison to different realities but when you look at our challenge it's about transforming a team because Sauber at the time has been a great team fantastic team um private team in F1 competing for the best they could do, but it was more a matter of participating, being sustainable from a financial perspective, of the not having the ambition to to win and to be uh let me see the the winning team uh in f1. So it was a completely different uh ambition and and here when you need to transform because then it's about transforming, it's not building on its. T transranforming a team is not only about the infrastruktures, the buildings, to expand the process. It's really changing habits, mindsets, behaviours to the people that were used not to spend, not to invest , to do the best out of maybe not little money, but the money you had. While here now it's a different ambition with all the means and the resources which are required. So sometimes if you for many years, maybe 30, 20 years, you were used simply not to spend and now you need to to change your mentality. That's the difficult the most difficult challenge. I think that's the really the challenge at the moment. It's about kultur transformation. Så sett, yes, it's about as well . infrastruktur expansion, uh manufacturing kapacity, expansion, team size, skills, but the most difficult, and that's what I was meaning by it is harder. On top of that, you need to change people mindset, approach, behaviours to what's required. Interestingly I can relate to a lot of what you've just said. I first went to Salbury in nineteen ninety eight and then I came a few months back and you showed me around what you've got now and it didn't feel that different to nineteen ninety-eight. There's the wind tunnel, of course, which was the result of the sale of Kimi Riken and back in the early two thousands. But beyond that, there was a lot that was the same as as thirty years ago. So as you said, not the the team infrastructure, the the buildings have remained the same for many, many years. Um the last, let me say, expansion was with BMW, but uh but that's it. Um while today, if you look what would be required , uh if the benchmark are the top teams of today, we need more space, we need more buildings, we need more um we need more expansion and uh that's our challenge and if you look where we are not, much space, even no parking slot for our employees. So we need really to expand, knowing that there is not much space there around. So that's uh one of the challenges we have. And and do you have some ideas about how you can do that? We have ideas. We've got a plan. I think we've got as well a very ambitious and great plan. I have to say luckily as well we found some solutions and now we are going through in terms of um proje cts. But uh yes, I can I can say we we've got a proper plan for that. But we can't talk about it now, right? But this begs the question, I think, that what is it? Neuburg where the power units are are designed and built, is what, 2 80 miles from Hinville . Did you think about putting the chassis on the same site? We we considered it as much as we even we considered maybe to build the team in UK or in Italy. But first, an existing team, the Sauber team, was in Inville, 600 people. So first the team exists, so you can't move it honestly and still so 600 people had F1 skills had proper skills and and and are based in Inville so on top of that I believe that Switzerland may become a competitive advantage. It's a great place to live. I think uh once you have attracted the right people, the people will will retain, will stay. And they can't get poached by another Formula One team because you haven't got it. They will stay again because I think they will be the in the best place and in the right place to to stay and to work. So we simply need to transform Hinville and Neuburn in our competitive advantage. Just out of interest, what advantages did you see when you were at Ferrari when you had the chassis and the engine under the same roof? Certainly the synergies are better, but it's is not such a big obstacle being distant now if you look all the other teams do not have the the chassis and the the power unit together. Red Bull has won many years with an engine from Japan. So the distance is not a true obstacle. And for us it's a three hour drive so again, I would call it very close. You did mention the UK. You you have a a a facility in Bista. How important is it for you to have a footh old in the UK? In Motorsport Valley in the UK. It it is very important. Um that's why somehow we open it. Um for many reasons. As you said in the motor valley, you know, where you've got the knowledge and and the competence and the skills. It's a way of being close to high potential. It's an entry point to our team because often when you approach maybe people for other teams difficult for them to move because of housing, kids, schooling, whatever, the wife having a job. And maybe it's not the right time in the year to move. So while somehow having their bister , it can be a first and entry point to the team. We've said we need to ramp up in terms of team size, but the most we are hiring are young graduates, which is our investment for the future. We've got an ambition to in fighting for a championship in 2030. So we can afford that. We can afford that investment. I'm pretty sure that the young graduates in a two-three years times will be the foundations of our winning team. So you're gonna grow the team organically when you when you look at the gap between where you are now and Mercedes and Ferrari and the rest is there a silver bullet in the shape of an Adrian Newy type figure that you need or are you gonna grow internally? No, we will grow internally . Um today the complexity I think of our product of our F1 vehicle from the power unit to the chassis such so it's not a single person we believe will make the difference. It will be more a team effort as well in terms of competence and skills. And I believe in that. I believe in youth, I believe in diversity. And I think that are the strategic advantages that you may have in the future. It will take time, as I said, all the investment s, you do not have an immediate return on it. So we know that by investing on young people , first you will need to onboard them, you need to coach them, you need to develop them . But the energy they have, we mentioned the change of culture and mentality, that's a good way of doing it because the energy, the vibes they're bringing to the team, it's outstanding. And if you come today in uh in our team in In ville or in Neuburg , the average age you will see is very, very, very young. It's a very young team. I'm I'm somehow proud of it. I'm the oldest. I'm uh I'm really an when you work around it's it's twenty five, twenty seven, twenty that's really the people you meet. I think one of the most stressful things about buying a car is that deep down, most of us are slightly worried that we're about to overpay for something or get a nasty surprise further down the line. You start comparing prices, mileage, specs, opening tab after tab, and after a while every listing starts blending into one. And unless you really know what you're looking at, it's hard to know whether something is genuinely a good deal or not. 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Do those dots join? It it feels more longer term than that . Twenty thirty when we agreed, we discussed and agreed as an objective, uh it seemed far away, no, because it was I remember it was Monza twenty four when we we somehow uh declared it. It was in a press conf with our CEO Gernot Döhlner , and we set 2030 as uh the objective five, six seasons by then. Um is it long? I think in F one everything has to happen immediately. Fans expectations, partners' expectations, shareholders' expectations. Already five or two to six years is a long time. So I know it's a very challenging one, but I think it's the right one as well. Each single objective has to be a challenging one. To set an objective furthermore would not be right. But on top of that, I believe it's possible. So I I believe in it. It's not that we simply put uh an objective ahead just to have some more time. I believe that by twenty thirty we can do it, yes. And has Audi always set itself very ambitious targets like that in its motorsport history when you think of the thirteen Lamar Certainly they did it because they they won and they won by even innovating. Um the way they approach always the exercise has been all very very ambitious, not not only by the winning but the way the way they won. Diesel in Le Mans, fully electrical, let me say electrical car with the Dakar, Audi Quattro with the four wheel drives in the rally. So it has always been uh that type of approach, which I think is great now because exactly what you feel being part of that of that company. How would you describe the Audi way? Right? We're talking about culture. If if the Ferrari way is all about passion or certainly from the outside looking in. You just see passion oozing through Marinello. What would you say is the Audi way? First Audi vision is the Fur Sprung Dusch Technique, no so innovating through the technology. So whatever is technique technical is is the approach no so the way I feel it it's proper technical plan proper innovation the process are right the technical solution are the right one. So it's it's very robust. And it's exactly the mentality I see. Especially I can see it in Neuburg, because that was the Audi way. And the technical approach to the project it's it's very very robust. While we're talking tech, looking longer term for Audi , how wedded are they to the current power unit that was introduced in 2026? If for example FIA President Mohammed ben Sulaym's suggestion of a V eight was to be introduced at the next regulation cycle. Certainly, Audi will be collaborative to the discussion. Audi is part of the F1 and is willing to remain in F1 for long . So certainly we we will be part, and I would say proactive, positive part of the discussion, making sure that we identify and we define the proper regulation for the future. F1 will remain the pinnacle of the technology because that's part of the D NA. Was the format V6, V8? I don't think that's that's somehow a detail now at the end. Certainly for Audi how efficiency engines are important. But on the other side, and I think that's one of the elements of the FIA president proposal. We need to reduce the cost of the power unit. Yes, even as a big corporate as Audi , we are sensitive to the cost and reducing the cost we see is that as a posit So as I said again we'll be very open to the discussion, we'll be s supportive to a constructive discussion. And I don't think that today there is anything which will stop us by being part of the future. While we're talking about collaborative discussions, there's something that's fascinating me in the Formula One Pardock at the moment, which is the discussions between teams about the regulations in the way that you guys sit down with your rivals to discuss how to solve a problem. Now, I've been around Formula One for 30 years. I have never seen this collaboration. What is it like for someone like you to be wanting to beat everybody on a Sunday and then two days later be having a chat about how we can all work together for the sake of the regulations? Do are are we really collaborating? I think we are simply all willing the best of the F one. We know that's our sport. We need to to support it the best we can. There are common interests, no? So which is to make the best for the fans for the spectacle for the show and I think more than collaborating, I think there is a common intent which is already a good step forward. ninety-five in the engine department you're an engine guy do you still think like an engine guy I I always said that um an engine guy you born engine guy you do not become an engine guy or a chassis you may become so I believe because an engine got a soul um so I still believe yes that I I'm more an engine guy rather than anything else and so when you think of yourself as a leader now, uh you've led Ferrari, you learnt a lot there . How would you describe your management style? Do you think in those terms? Firstly I've never been a great engineer, so that's why I I think a lot of people would want to disagree with you on that. No, but it's um I like managing what's my style and I don't think it's me to to judge. I think it's uh I've been lucky because I had a lot of great leaders and managers which I've been working closely to, starting from Jean Todd, Ross, even Michael Schumacher was a great leader. Not a manager, but certainly a great leader. I feel that he was even stronger as a leader than as a driver. Stefano. Can I pick you up on that? That's a that's a big statement. Say Michael was a better leader than driver? I think he was capable of pus hing always ahead the team to do better. He was so ambitious, raising the bar, pret ending the best from everyone, but from him as first. No, it was a it was a role model in that respect. And people were simply following him, but with great gratitude and conviction. So he was a leader, yes. And the way he was capable of as I said, pushing the entire organiz ation one by one. He knew one by one. He knew us all by all one by one. So yes, he was a great leader. So I think that was his talent, his speed on track. Certainly we cannot discuss it. But what made the difference was his mental approach to the team. While we're talking about your influences, can we talk about Jean-Todd now? Because when I look at the grid now, there are some Jean Todd pupils who are running Formula One teams. There's you at Audi , there's Andrea Stella at McLaren, both of you work with him at Ferrari, then there's Laurent Meckies who worked with Jean Todd at the FIA. Stefano Dominica and Stefano Dominicali who's running running F1. Yeah. What did you learn from Jean? First, I think the school we had at the time was an incredible school, because as you said, as a matter of fact, many of us had the opportunity to somehow to develop in within this this sport and business. I think what we we learned is exactly the the culture we were mentioning before, the mentality, the the winning culture He was a hard worker, but he was capable of he was so hungry to win. No stones unturned. But then the importance of the team spirit, no blame culture. It's always about all together pushing in the right direction. And I think if I look at what Andrea Stella has built in McLaren term of culture, it's coming from that old school, no? And uh and is what I whatever I'm trying as well to duplicate . So we had a great school at the time and I think we have been somehow lucky mean part of that team, yes. And the success that you had at Ferrari, particularly in those early two thousands with Schumacher with Todd, the reasons that that was so successful, is that still relevant today in Formula One or has the sport changed too much? The team size has changed. The complexity has changed. I think when I started myself Ferrari was 600 people today, more than 1500 people. The budget more three times more at least. The complexity of the product, hybridization. So certainly it has changed in that respect. But as I said the culture has remained the same. Not to be a winning team you need that culture. You you need those behaviours from your your team and members. And that's that's something which remains. And that is what you're trying to recreate. Yes. At Audi. Well, you can't do that on your own, although you know you are team principal and CEO. Can we talk about some of the senior management changes that have happened recently. Jonathan Wheatley was team principal. He left pretty much on the twelve months since he joined the team. Did that come as a surprise to you, him leaving? I think it come to a surprise to all of us, yes, um out of blue skies, as you would say. It can as a as a surprise I think it was uh inevitable in a way that it couldn't commit so once the team have been informed, there was no different solution to somehow uh the solution we we discussed and somehow the decision we made. Abszi, it has been great working with him. I think he has been part of that initial transformation we're discussing. He has brought from a cultural point of view as well, because certainly coming different of the different team to the one I've been experiencing, Red Bull, but again a winning team. So again, with the winning mindset and mentality, what does it mean to get there? What does it mean to become champion? So I think certainly um he brought a lot of his experience of his background and but at the end it's the way it it has happened. Now as I said unexpected. As a team we need to look forward. I think in there no discussion . I'm very happy with Alan, I have to say. Alan has now joined the team as a racing director, covering at least operationally the responsibility of Jonathan at the race track. And since Miami it, has been a very difficult weekend for us. It has been his first weekend in the role. Real baptism of violence. Yeah, it has a really a tough one. But the way you can see he's an expert, he knows the job. And I'm sure he will he will bring again added value. So how different is the job that Alan McNish is doing compared to what Jonathan was doing? I think it's uh it's not one hundred percent the same perimeter. So Jonathan has as well some sponsor commercial responsibilities, which now are not part of Alan's responsibilities. So Alan is really focusing on the operational at the at the race weekend is the main person, the main responsible during the race weekends for all what happened on track. And that's covering the most, I would say. And that as well for me, it's uh the most relevant one because give me the opportunity to remain at the factory whenever is that's required. We are mentioning the transformation of the team, the transformation of the factory, what's needed to build and transform the the new team and for the next seas ons that's our biggest challenge where we need the most of the focus and maybe of my energy. So that's why having Alan at the racetracks give me the confidence that I can remain back at home and being covered. Do you like the fact that Alan is an ex driver? Do you like the driver's mentality or and the the leadership that comes with that and it takes us back to Schumacher, I suppose? Yeah, he's a racer. Yeah. So being a racer, he understand what's that support, what's what's required. He's speaking the same language of the drivers, being himself a former driver. So when it comes to managing drivers, I think it's he understands better than anyone else what is in the in the head, in the mind of the driver. So it's um I think very helpful, certainly, and as as we said, is he's a winner because he won the Le Mans, so he knows what's required again. And um as I said I'm very happy. Join the thousands of heat pump owners feeling warm and fuzzy. I've lived here twenty years, I ain't moving, so I thought better future proof me own. We started a trend, the old streets applying for the government grant now. With the energy it saves,'s I don't know what better off, the planet or my wallet. And that is a little bookworm. Says it's three times more efficient than our old boiler. Feel all warm and fuzzy inside with a seven and a half thousand pound government grant towards your heat pump at gov.uk slash clean energy. Eligibility criteria apply C website for details. Thank you all so much for being here at our wedding. I can't believe I get to spend the rest of my life with a woman of my dreams. Speaking of dreams, have you ever dreamed of tasting all the colours of the rainbow? Because that is exactly what you get with Skittles. Five bold fruit flavours in every pack lemon, orange, lime, strawberry and blackcurrant. They're chewy, they're colourful, they're perfect, just like my wife. So thank you for coming and remember to buy Skittles. Shamelessly promote the rainbow, taste the rainbow. While we're talking drivers, can we talk about Nico Holkenberg Gabriel Portoleto now? I mean you have worked with some of the greatest drivers of the modern era, right? Schumacher, Alonso, Raikkonen, Vettel, Charles Leclerc. How do your current guys stack up to some of those names I've just mentioned? Speaking about my drivers that's, the easiest task I have in the interview tonight and the postcard because I at the end I think I'm very pleased and happy with the drivers we've got uh the mix, the setup, uh more experienced, a younger. Nico is is really uh an easy one to deal with in a way that is always very honest, transparent, funny, um, no politics at the end. He loves driving and he's good in driving, he's consistent, he's got the experience, he's scoring points, getting out the most out of the car in a race weekend. And we saw his podium in Silverson somehow was about experience, how to drive in so's in so let me say situations on the other side there is Gabriel young talent to be developed to be coached and I think the mix of the two they're getting on well together. So at the moment you can see the normally your teammate is your first enemy. I would say it's your first, let me say competitor. But they both understand that our challenge is a different challenge today. It's to develop that team to be Probably helped by the fact that Nico is thirty eight and Gabby's twenty one. Completely different stages of their careers. Different completely stages but I believe that Nico's thirty eight but he's got a lot of fuel in his tank still and I don't think that he's looking for a retirement at the moment . How do you think age affects racing drivers? Certainly it affects because in a way it's a physical sport . But experience important as well. You can somehow compensate uh in a way. So I think Fernando is an example, no, you you there is still as I said, he's got some seasons ahead for there is some seasons still ahead for Nico, so he's not close to retirement. Now you signed uh Gabby, whereas actually Nico was signed by the the the previous management, wasn't he? Tell us about Gabby, because you've said he impresses you so much as a person as much as as as a racing driver. And and during the course of this discussion I'm now learning how important that is to you. What impresses you the most about Gabby? So I didn't follow him much when it was when he was younger and karting or f3. So I've been more focusing on him once he has been in F2 in the last season before F1 and before we signed and see what he has achieved somehow outstanding now winning on the first year in F3s and in F2 , which is very little drivers um have been capable of it. So his speed was no discussion for me. And his speed you can understand it by looking at telemetry data or somehow but the results he has achieved. As you said, what counted the most for me was more the attitudes. Yeah when I met him the first time I've been somehow impressed. Humble, very high ambition, no doubt. So he's got the full ambition to become a champion one day. And that is in his mind the way that he is any decision he's taking is towards becoming a champion one day. He wanna learn from previous drivers, so whenever we meet, tell me about Michael, tell me what he was doing. He's a passionate of the being Brazilian of Senna, so trying to know everything about him , uh, but not simply because he has been a hero in Brazil, because he wanna know how those guys have become champions, because again, as I said, he's got that ambition and any of his decisions, but still staying humble, hard worker. And he's um he is listening, he's willing to learn. And whatever you may tell him he will try to put in practice and that's he thinks is the right attitude and uh so I'm enjoying samm um staying close to him and to see the progress. There's an intensity to him that I like. He's very personable, but it's almost like you can flick a switch and he suddenly but drills down into the detail. He certainly deep diving with the engineers on the details from one race to the others, having meetings, willing to understand uh, never being self satisfied, pushing the engineers to the right attitude in that respect. And as you said, I think he can be very kind, but whenever any put down the visor is on track, he can be very aggressive as well. I think that's um that's that's great to see, and I think this is the potentials you need to become a champion one day. Can you clarify one thing for all of us really? When you were negotiating to get Gabby in the team. Were you having to negotiate with Fernando Alonso, your former driver? No, I have to say that that didn't happen. Okay. Or very little. So Fernando popped out only maybe in one meeting when it was to come to the last decisions. But um no that lucky didn't happen I have to say. Because of course just to clarify, Fernando is his manager. The ambition at Audi is clear, which means you will become a destination team for every driver on the grid. Are you looking? Are you part of the discussion now when it comes to Max Verstappen and people like that? No, we are not, I'm not, and the reason why I think we are not yet ready for it as a team. So if Max would join, you need to offer him a platform which is a proper platform where you can fight for victories. So and maybe it will be even not required in the future because as I said I'm so happy at the moment with the drivers we've got and and let's see what what will be our future. But at the moment we've got long term contract with our drivers um and happy with the current situation. Okay. And and Carlos Sainz was part of the discussion a couple of years ago, wasn't he? And he ended up deciding to go to Williams. Were you disappointed in that? No. Did you feel you got close to signing him again because of course you had him at Ferrari? No, obviously we had a good relationship in in Ferrari. I employed him in Ferrari, so he knew that somehow I trusted him as much as I trust him today. It's always good to meet and have a discussion or a chat with him. He evaluated, but as for everyone, I'm always very respectful to the decisions of the people. And if he decided for a different way, somehow I I'm happy for him because honestly, I think he made his own choice and that that was important . I would even say that he made his own choice and not his dad's choice. But which is great for him. So and and in on the other side, then we are the opportunity of Gabriel self which as I said before I'm very pleased of it. So let's look at the short term, the medium term. We've talked about the championships in twenty thirty, but to get to that point, obviously there's the the internal transformation that needs to happen, but also you need to start putting some results together, don't you? You need to start scoring points regularly, you need to start getting on the podium, you need to win races. Have you mapped out in your mind when you need to start achieving all of those different things? Not only in my mind, we have agreed and discussed that with the team. And as much as we have set our 20-30 objective, we have a roadmap to it. And uh we've got objective for 26, but the roadmap is first to become competitive as a team and maybe a challenger and then a a true, let me say, potential uh competitor for the win and final win. Now 26 is our very first season as Audi. And somehow to become competitive is really what we have set ourselves as a an ambition and a target objective for the for the season. So which is not the number of points is not the number of maybe Q3 or or whatever positions in in the in the championship. Is the mentality transformation . To become competitive means that every single people in the team understand what does it mean to compete and being Audi. Not anymore, as we said before, to be self-satisfied by participating, but no stones unturned, moving forward, raising the bar and the challenge, and to become better each single race. And I would be very happy by the end of the season that mentality, that mindset , is not only obvious to us, but it's obvious from the fans perspective or the media perspective. Seeing the transformation of a team that by the end of the season, anyone may recognize how they has joined and they are becoming serious. And that's really the ambition we have for our objective for twenty twenty six. In our way to twenty thirty, I think the next true step will be in twenty-eight. Because some obviously to make, as you said, victories, podiums, good results, you need as well a great car. It's not only about the infrastructure, the process or the team size. You need a great car. And if we are measuring our gaps to the top competitors today, maybe the biggest gap is more from the power unit performance, power unit controls and drivability . Uh where we believe there is a significant step which is required to close the gap. And when it's about the power unit, the time are always always longer. The lead time of developing an engine is longer than the aerodynamics. So that's why I'm saying maybe the next significant step cannot be a short step. Is that because you're changing the hardware in the engine? Because we will need to change the hardware of the engine. So to improve our current one to be a better engine or as as good the competitors uh engines. We believe that that cannot be possible by twenty-seven, but to reach the right level by twenty-eight. Okay. And what about the car? Can we isolate the car in this conversation ? Where do you think you are this year with the chassis? I think we can. Telemetry analysis. First, we got a good correlation with the wind tunnel and the simulator. That's in terms of platform from the engineering was that was the most important. Saying that again in our process and methodologies, we've done a step forward. But I think our car is pretty fast in the corners. Uh we believe that maybe we are even the fourth team in terms of chassis, which has an ex sauber, it's an outstanding result. And that's showing that the current dynamic in Individual in terms of organization people developing and I see as well the development we are producing in the wind tunnel for the in-season already 26. It's a great dynamic, it's a great development rate. And I'm again it's we are not yet the benchmark, we are not the best, but I think we are in a good way, yes. But when you think where Salba were two years ago, and look at if you say you now you've got the fourth best chassis , how have you made that j ump? Have you made I don't know have you made changes to the wind tunnel? Have you got employed people to work, aero people to work with James Key that weren't there before? Or I think the biggest change of it's uh uh as we said, it's working on every single aspect. But the biggest I think has been giving a clear direction, a clear objective, and motivating people. I think that was uh the most important. Well Alan McNish said in Canada that if you guys get a good result, he's up for a tattoo. Oh really? Zach Brown esque. I want to ask you the same question. When you win your first race as Audi, is Matteo Bonotto gonna get a tattoo? No, no tattoo. No. Sorry for that. No tattoo. But I didn't know that Thailand was going for a tattoo. I'm so curious now. Um no tattoo but I will enjoy the moments, that's no doubt. Um I'm looking forward to it. That's it. It's been wonderful to chat. Do you know what one thing that's become apparent is that you have a lot to do . When you look back at your time at Ferrari, you then stepped away from the sport for what was it, 18 months? Why did you come back and sort of put all this pressure on yourself again? What was the lure for you? I couldn't resist. I think it's uh aspect of it, couldn't you resist? Well, obviously