Axis Retreat and Strategic Significance

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Pay mononthly consonsumer loans made by Webank. available through PayPaling N ML nine onezero four fivety seven. Learn more at payPal d. com slash pay monthly. of Monty and Rom, we are finally joined by one of our most long trailed guests. Oh my God. The phenomenon. Fally. I mean, there's a million things we could get him on to talk about. It was almost choice paralysis. it was What you're gonna guess of? Be I mean you could talk about nearly anything. And as we will find out, he will talk about all of it. Yeah. We were just talking about cattle bolt guns. We' being schooled on the logistics of a cattle bolt gun. Sur. Piano Belli, people I know, one of my oldest friends in comedy,ne of the greatest stand upps of certainly our generation, and I mean that kind And also card carrying artist Yeah probably the probably you and it's a toss you inirm Brady as to when you got your diagnoses that I went the most like A Ovious Yeah yeah, you know. It It was the game with how long before Pierre mentioned the tanks Yeah, ye. there was a game, which was how long P before Pier talks about military history in an insanely detailed way. you know military history better than anyone I know Yeah maybe. I don't know. You met I' mry now Okay, fair enough, yeah, fair enough. But okay, so before that. beforefore him. Yeah, before Al's kind of horrifying universe level knowledge of Wld two. Also first debut for Jeans on the podcast. You've never had Jeans on the show? That's true. I've gone for a kind of Robin Williams character look.. Yes. I'm gonna say it's not your fault a lot. They're all laid back Yeah, But we talked about Monty and Rommel. Now we last episode we got to Rommel hadads In the first battle at Alamain. Yeah. I imagine you know you the first or second Alame guy I say a second. Yeah. I just don't know if there's a hipstsotope actually the first I this earlier stuff. And I mean one's going all go for it. So to recap, Rommel is on Mh in the desert. He's pushed the Brits or he's sort of like Johann Croich, he's playing total football with tanks. He's pushed the Brits all the way back into Egypt on Operations Zllen Bloomer Morale is low Moral' low. Tobbrok has been relieved finally the Australian rat The rat. Not my words, they've been relieved by the RAF and at the first Battle of E Alamain it's ended in Stalemate. And now the great hero, much as in this series, the great autistic hero has arrived. local Brits because we got a bit lost we did get losta it was just too many details about the kind of going back and forth andz and you were losing morle at the end of second episode Yes we've flown in an atist Yes to be Mery. morle to be rude but correct. Oh God. I so wish I had that label. Was it rude but incorrect? Yeah ye just rude at the moment. I'm just rude. Really hoping for some kind of label. Your opinion on Montgomery first before we crack into it, Or maybe your opinion on the North African theatre, which in my opinion is the most important theatre of World War two. Yeah, of it's the defining theatre, you'd say Well, it's the best way to drain the enemy of resources just make them go to the desert for no reason. and around. Are you aware of a game that we highlighted You are aware of. the huge board game. Yeah the last episode he's heard of it. Yeah. yeah ye. It takes twenty years to complete. Wan to play this so much. And I couldn't find seven or eight people who would join us. you could find seven or eight easily. Really Can you name them? because I take issue with the idea that eight people wait to play a campaign for North Africa over twenty years. So how it's a twenty year game and what you need to choose your stage of life. Are you thinking like sixty to eighty? A you thinking you want to be a bit more compass mentors? Do you want to be a bit more is it forty to sixty? I think you've just got to see it as You know, this is my life now. This is my every second Sunday As long as you do it for a full Sunday, That's gonna take forty years though No, it's every two weeks, isn't it? No, If you met every week it's every two weeks if you once a. hes And he already knows. know He knows everything. Twice a month, baby. And the problem with the I know in the board game, the Italians, it's like they need more water and stuff because they're constantly boiling pasta and things. Genuinely Christ whichich is m. It's like a fuckking Jut GBT Yeah. Yeah based that on p. Yeah,'s actually Yes. these just came in while I slept, andn't they? have Yes, you have to account for the evaporation of water, more so if you're British because they're using jerry cans rather than drs. But this just finished it No one has ever finished it. Really? Supposedly no one's ever finished. Youn shouldt tell them that. But also you will do it now for the next twenty years and that is when you'll see if you have any kids, that will be just Sorry, I was playing the campaign fair enough if you're fighting an actual war, maybe. Yeah The worst thing would be playing it for eighteen years and then you see on the news someone has finished it. Yes. And you're like two years away. Yeah, one hundred percent. But also I don't know what the post nut clarity will be like when you finish that game be like that that's it No, the bard. No, then you make a new one called Barbarossa should that let go think towards where itner. Well, I guess that's it. Yeah invasion of Sicily Yeah Rll dice to transeduce the mafia into helping you. Husky. Operation Husky. O you play much shorter game, which is just dropping up on in Japan You is that sort of like, It's the opposite. It just takes one turn T two turns.w two turns. And you thought it would only take one turn. Yeah Yeah It took fucking two. Yeah, fuckget another one. Why not? Wh not? We're here now. Gone. So yeah, we're in the desert. And as you say, this there is all about resources. It's the most logistical of the Yeah Yeah So how do you think compared to you know a lot about World Wld two, How do you think is this part of World Wld two? do where does this rank with some of your favorite bits? Is this like B ter, A tier.' It gets everything gets overshadowed by Normandy, right? If you If you're from the West. Right. If you're Russian you just think that you did it on your own you don't care about anything anyone else did. So whatever. DJ and all the and saving Pravate Ryan and all the video games H But it is North Africa is great because you've got like a supervillain and a superhero. It' a spit offff, right? Is it? Yeah. Oh man. And like The thing that makes it difficult is the towing and froing. It's exactly what you guys got to moralize this. was end to end. We've lost a Brooke again. Yeah. ye. He changed his hands three times M of the war. Absolutely m. And also it's all basically the only inhabitable bit is a whatever of h the strip Yeah. and everything else is desert. Yeah and it it's It's horrible to imagine. forty degrees and like the best place to be the best place to be is inside a metal tin. It's horrible. horrible horrible. So after the first Battle of E Alemne, the hipsters' choice Churchill decides to initiate the not everyone's heard of the first Battle of E, but everyone who has went on to fight the second of Yeah if you were hipsters are calling people out Girls call them out for wearing a t shirt at the first Battle Because they primaris them. even studied the firstirst Battle. I'm going around rough trade wearing a t shirt the first Battle Alamade. I'm getting nookie. N Three brigades. You best believe. You best believe I'm getting some eighth Army tank, right? Now. Winston Churchill, after the firstirst Battle Bed Alame, inststitutes the Cairo Purge okay He pushes for a complete overhaul of the leadership. So at this point it's Orc who is a repressed homosex He's gayaman use the language I say it sounds like it's position in the tank But it also seefream only you got a gayan. But it also seems like that would be how you pronounce it in the olds. Yeah Yeah yeah Gamon. Now his plan is for someone called, is it Gort to take control? Gt, right is flying from London to North Africa to take up the role. his plane gets shot down because the Germans think that Churchill's in that plane. Right. So they think they've killed Churchill because Churchill is going to North Africa, which he doesn't really need to be doing Yeah. But anyway,'s like a Churchill wrap around the plane with like a picture of you. ye ye talk. Yeah. Churchel posted a selfie on board a priate plane and they thought that's the good. Was it go or go Scott Got gets shot down Yeah which means that enter Monte. Yeah. A difficult man. Yes. but the right man. A difficult point. Dicult point. No doubt. Anti Booze. Yes, Well, ye's very that's a difficult That's as difficult as it gets.. An anti booze and I'm rude. Yeah. Yeah you have to pick You can't be you have to have both. That's true actually. To be sober and rude. Yeah is a real just white knuckling it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's like a rude guy. He's not like one of those rude or straight people who's just short with you. He'll sit and do a session of being rude. I Leave it. He'll be rude all night. He'll keep going. He's the sort of person who follows up a question almost immediately with Well ye. There's a lot of that vibe coming from it. Yeah. 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Ask your doctor about EpllS and visit EpplS d. com or call one eight hundred Lillily R X or one eight hundred five four five five nine seven nine thirteenth of august forty two, Monty takes command of the eighth Army.. He immediately orders a no withdrawal, right., don't know, fucking leaving. Yeah. We don't go further back than this line. He makes everyone burn the pamphlets and instruction booklets on how to retreat in good order. Really?. But that's one of his skills was morale boosting Yeah. So like symbolic things were saying like we're definitely going to win. B that stuff like that was actually prettyty goed. I think it's It's such a morale boost for someone to come in and channel the maddest PE teacher you had Yes. because that's who you want, I think in that way. Is it getting big salmon to avoid relegation? basically It's Mike Basset tank commommander. is. It's totally that. It's four hundred for two. Yeah. None of this fucking total foot. We tried it with a European manager. It's too expansive. We don't know that the players S salmon Let's make sure we can survive. It's totally what he does. Up to this point, you've had a bunch of old guys with pipes and then a little weird man with a mustache shows up And it's just incredibly rude about how fat and unfit everyone is. Yeah and makes everyone go on jogs. Yeah and it's not nice, but it does make you go O obsessed with fitness. was' saying fitness is very different then because the bodies It didn't look ripped or anything. No. It's just a lot of star jumps, I imagine. Look so many star jumps. like sprinting around with a rifle fully above your head. Yeah, yeah ye. Climbing over a rope and then dropping down Yeah right Yeah. T trying to desperately turn tinned corned beef into muscle. Yes. But then that is actually it' optimal, isn't it? Be there's no suugar and stuff like there is now. Yeah. If you have soup, it's just soup. It doesn't have glucose in it would imagine. And there's no waste of like excess muscle where it's like, well I can lift up this heavy weight and it's like well if it' heier than your rif, you've wasted your time. Yeah Yeah Yeah. That's all you need to. Weich tell you what we should do, we should place this is what we always do Pierre is that we place a dates with something anything in history that happened before after I imagine you'd be very good at this. And it has become a sort of spectator sport where you try and get it as close as possible. Okay. Do doesn't have to be though. You can do We've had some people would like the bigig bang. Okay and like the birth of Greg Wallace, it's like you can like, you know, do whatever you want to thirteenth of august nineteen forty two What's that before? What's that after Oh thirteenth of august nineteen be two. Yeah, can be. to be honest if it shoot from the hit, whatever comes out, it comes out Okay After sliced bread let's find.'s a check. that was check. Yeah Snd out to check arice push. N is twenty to eight. There we go. Yeah incredibly late for sliceer V veryery late for slice but. I feel I would have come up with that As soon as bread was invented when was the bread knife invented? Be was that the ninety twenty? No. I'm glad we're underto this because the reason I know when eighteen ninetty three it took them thirty years to go just after slicedad. What was they doing in the bread knife before? J just to me Sorry, so so it's after sliced bread Prem Miniskir. Pre mininister sixteenth surely. Yeah That's lovely. That's a lovely cushion You were having a sandwich, but the women thankfully Their legs covered So you could enjoy your sliced bread sandwich. sixty four sixty four. It' sort of like was a bellpoch of the Western world, wasn't it?ice bread, minisirat. Before the minisirat ruined it. Before all moral values collapse. Be technology and dignity. Yes, exactly. We still have social conservativism sixty four was Charlie, when was the first divorce laws? I think it's sixty seven. You know, the mini skirtson as Britain. It is a train of events that utered resulted in the family being the family unit being shutered n sixty n divorce for fourm back there youo, no fault concepts. Just basically mean it was meaningless. Marriage is meaningless. That means nothing anymore. Look at Look at the legs and that woman.' a of the horse.t care that my bread sles. I don't. my whole reality is allli bread. it's all over. It's all over. Now, Monty's arrived, Yes.. Sini skirts are not yet a thing. They are introduced but sort of twelve years before Monty dies, and you must have. I al started his death, but I think so. I think he got ill when he saw the first mini skirt Um So the conditions when he arrives, you've got you've got sand going up everywhere. the flies sink holes that would just open up and just swallow a quote from Monty actually, Fine sound in the desert inftrated everything, vehicles, weapons, food and bodily orififices said very seriously I imagine. Sandstorms are stopping the fighting. sccorpions, spiders The apparently they all say their memoirs flies were the like worst they' just constant flies, dead bodies, corned beef flies. But then the Australians perform the best in this. theater arguably,'s probably because theyre used to. I think this is it. They bought those hats with the corks and stuff. Yeah they're built for it. Yeah. And you're saying to them, It's really hot and you're going to have to be really aggressive. Yeah. Hang on. Great. What happens? Yeahine. So Monty's leadership style is the antithesis of Rommel's. Rommel is improvisational The speed Literally. Whereas Monte doesn't really want to attack and toally Montino Lovely. Absolutely terrific. Jose Montinia. He only wants to attack when he absolutely knows for sure that he's going to win. Yeah. Yeah. whichich when you put it like that, you're like, well yeah. Yeah why do I do that? It's mad that that's just being autistic enough to say No. Yeah, notot yet. It's like a super big. I would deffer I sure you like to know what The social plan is planlanet, Yeah. Yeah. You want to know who's gonna to be there. you want to know your escape rooutom? Y. Yeah. Which Germans will be there there, whichich Italians will be there? Yeah what weapons will they have?. Yeah, I guess you don't want to leave the house unless you know for sure you won't be humiliated. Yeah about military history who didn't go blow for blow. I need to know that there's at least a couple of How many Italian paratroopers will be there? That's what I wanted to know. Yeah. There was a table your wedding of Italian paratroopers. That's a slur I use for that. Anway And the Allied forces are completely fucked. They're exhausted U so and Monte as we saw when he was in World War one, you know, he has a pretty hrowing experence. I mean, there's no owering World One experience., But he gets shot in the lung. It's quite a British experience, I think, being stuck under another body and just lying there on in the fine and lie there for like two days. Wait on nightt time. Yeah J waiting for the sun to come down. Hello. Wh' just thinking, I wonder what's happening with that lung of mine. Yeah Yeah. An aalifph has never been so stiff. the stiffest of aolphs. and the knnobbliest of knees. It does also kind of look like my granddad. So I feel a very very sort of sense of today grandfather ls to him.. So he really cares about human life, which is actually quite rare amongst World War two generals. Is it an empathetic thing or is it a tactical thing? It's hard to know. Yeah, it doesn't stke me some. I think it's a leading heart sort to waste. Yes. It's resources. Yeah. The men are resources. They' have to spend so long getting them to get ac cross country. Yeah. Yes. yeah. What a shame to lose them. Well, many of them die during cross country. Yeah, the most dangerous part of being in Monte's Army arrmy is the training I Some of them die. So after the first Battle of Alanamain and Hipster's choice. Rommel plans another offensive entitled Operation Sarch This is this would be the last big Axis offensive of the desert campaign. Yes. And so he basically tries to defeat the eighth Army before I'm Allied reinforcements arrive. Now, can you explain to our Thick listeners and ourselves? Yes. What is going on in Creete? at this time that's taking resources away. Like why is The Allied they not whyy are we not pouring absolutely everything into the North African? They're sending a lot of stuff to Greece. Yeah because there's a lot of stuff going on in Greece at the minute. Ch Churchill had a real boner for the idea of invading up through Greece and Yugoslavia for a while. O into the German occupied under belly. Right. Yeah. He just he was on a real jag about it for a while and I just wouldn't let it lie They thought they could save Greece from the Italians and they almost did, but then like always with the Italians in World War II They went we need help suppressing the population and they when finally send people to pick you up in an Uber? Well we were saying there's an argument the Italians lose Germany the war because they delayar Barrossa by six weeks, which ends up being crucial because the Italians don't have any plan at all. The only thing that Mussolini's thought of is I want to ride Beareback on a horse through Cairo and we'll just work the rest out. Yeah yeah yeah. And then they surrender immediately. So you were saying they their main weapons that they're a liability to look after. I have one hundred thousand prisoners of war is a nightmare It's a logistics nightmare. It's absolutely insane. justust to be like, we didn't have enough awful beef for us, right? Yeah. Yeah yeah. we've got to put you somewhere. And they're not even eating it. No, ' it's not made by my. That's their punishment. Yeah.. Yeah.' British rhym. have to be British food. Yeah. They torture me. they torture me. It'ish tin please. B the slice So Rommel's idea is to swing around south through the Qatara Depression I don't know if you've struggled with Qatara Depression for a of time, aroundound the British flank, cut it's all about swinging around flanks this there because you have this massive sand sea That's sort of an open, if you can use that, then you can kind of merge in Infinity land th Yeah. Well, yeah, just So bothoth sides put him as landmin, Is mainly the Germans. It' constant. Yeah. And' still now betterwin to keep getting blown up talking. Yeah school just bang Yeah, gone up in the air I mean, that's I guess it's just it seems quite reckless to me, Laying landminds. You don't really think about the future are you? No at all. because you just lay them down, it's just like, was this area just fing? It's fighting a lift and then just leavingraight away. It's fighting as the do over see. door closed I don't know where that's going. Fuck you then. Yeah. you're haing a dum waiter f a dumb witer up. And Princess Lana's next campaign had she lived was about people who foughtight on lifts and was it? Yeah she's big on that. Really big on that. blue ribbon. Anyway, so we get to the battle of Alam E Hifa or Halfa. this set you off? you know what that is Yeah, on the ridge. Yeah on the rid. Got. Tell talkk us through the battle of Alamel Halfa. They knew that Ramel was going to do this broadly. Right. So those of the Eigma Cat? Yes, ye Yeah, we're reading all their post. because this is the first time that the ennigma codes come into proper effect. Is it I thought that happened in Battle of Britain somewhat. There's ultra and then there's ennigma, the other way around, What was useful here was they realized the Germans have been getting loads of stuff for ages from the American ambassador The Italians had broken the code by going into the embassy in Rome and finding it in a desk or something pathetic. Yeah. And then he'd been telling America all the cool stuff from Cairo and that had been fucking everything up They figured that out And then They always knew when the Germans were sending ships full of fuel, they always knew who was where. they always kn I mean, it was mad theount. They knew when Rommel was back in a spa having little fish eaters Yeah And the revision is about Monty because he was obviously he sold himself as a genius. Yeah. and that's the narrative for the first then slowly when people revisited his legacy in the sixties, they kind of put a lot more in the fact basically had will also we will get to why people decide that it wasn't him what he says in the sixties. we'll get to that. We'll get to that next episode. But he was smart because if you know that Rumel was coming up for the south, they he left it very like empty in the big open shitty bit that' hard to defend. Yeah. and just covered a ridge overlooking the area with anti tank guns and tanks duged in tanks and he dug in tanks so that like the basically like a barrel would stick out And then it would essentially be like a anti tank gun, but it's a tank. co of the front and sand bags and wood and is that going to be cooler to be in the tank if it's covered in sand or really hot? After one night, I think, cooolld, but in the day you're like, there would be on. I hate the sun. so much. 'cause the tanks are small. Yeah You have to be like jockeys right, You have to be a certain size to fit in a tank you? Yeah They were tiny back in the day, one know. They were pretty small. I think it helped the lack of nutrition Apart from the head of the SAS, David Sterling was six foot six.' been fucking huge back then. It must have been like having an end. Yeah I've come fo the tw. So this is Monty's first battle in command thirtieth of August to the fifth of September. So yeah, he leaves this kind of trap for all around the south Yeah and then they I guess they stumble into it. wouldould you say it's a kill zone Yeah wouldould you say it's k Would you say so? Well, did I say it's a kill it's kill then And Ram's not got enough fuels. every time he does anything with tanks, he's using up like ye the last bit of petrol. Yeah, and it has to work and it just doesn't. And as we know, bags run now . As we know from the from the board game, you have to plan enough fuel. This is a theatre of all about logistics supplies Yeah. And his supply line is all the way back to Triol Yeah, Tripoli.. And we're on the patreon, which you'll be sticking around for we're talking about the SAS byy this point, they've become quite effective at disrupting normal supply lines. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dicking around. It was a trial and error. we talked about this on the a trial and error becauseginning it begins with them just jumping out of planes and breaking their legs which just into a sandstorm I' just jumping out of the. the stuff out as I so many here. Do you a parachute? Yes, we do. Turns out we do. It's easy to say with hindsight that's a m.ot all sacred cows should be slaughtered. parachutes work Yeah We're looking at a map now. I imagine Pierre this is the kind of stuff you've got in your room Yeah you framed and We're just tattooed all over me like Breg. Never forget. Do you understand how to read these sorts of things? When I reading military history books, I find them quite choppy and then I get to things like this and it breaks my head a bit, these chards This box with a cross in it is an infantry regiment and a box with a cross and a kind of circle is a tank. It's like the shape of a tank from World War War. Oh, yeah, okay, I see R And then there's like a thing with a parachute in is parachutists and then there's a couple of others where I sort of really know what the How do you tell what all of the arrows that are moving in or is are you not meant to? I always find them quite hard is hard. sometometimes they're nice and they do a kind of different color, or kind of cross hedging or something, but often Especially if it's like a single day, you just think, okay, I guess I get it, whatever. Yeah. So the horror I'd go round They Yeahah, they just go really far like no one's down there. So I'll go all the way down there. Yeah go up. I guess they didn't have this. Well there that's that's what that's what he did. That's what he did. That's the ridge. You see that that little line there above the big Badline. Yeah, there's only one I get most all of them really fast down there. Yeah. and then I come back up and then it's a running theme,'re retrospective. I mean it' seem whenever I look at these, it always seems a lot easier. Yeah. Wh you said just go there. But they'rening they're running out of fuel and planes are coming and fucking with them from Malta. Phoebe, can you go on the research and find that image of I think this, but it has the different countries of the regiments ' it's quite funny because the Greeks the Greeks are there, ye. The Greeks are here. Yeah, ' it's quite which never look at this. And I if I was Romel, I would view that Greek brigade as sort of like the Ardne Forest as a sort of break in the maginao line where you could ease it, I mean, that's I mean why just why Why are we lining up? Look at the Greek brigade, It's just a load of plastic chairs. We're also using an anachronistic South African flag. Yeah Wh is a bit naughty. Well, hang on, but this is not not during Nathast Africa though That's nauy flag, Yeah, but Nath' flag wasn't in yet. Oh okay. Oh I see. So back then it should have just been like, you know, it's like the naval Esine Union, Jack in the Corner, cllassic, whatever. That wasn't the That's apartheid flag. Yeah,. So Poebe has deliberate chosen the apartheid era It's fine. It's fine. She's dyslexic I don't think that counts with flags though. I think flags were invented to help. That. I think people online when they make these diagrams just choose that flag to minimize the amount of union jacks on the the visual field. So Monty How does that battle end Halfa Ridge? Is it is it so Rommel retreats, I imagine. Rommel has to pull back They lose roughly equal numbers of tanks, but that's the first time that the German tanks haven't just steam rolled everything. So it's seen as like a stalemate slash victory. Have the Gherermanans come in yet the American Sherman tanks. Yes, I think so. yeah. I believe this is Even though we did it with the help of the America. N not Benherm Chlot, No, not Ben Sherman. It's not loads ofen Sherman shirts coming here in and it's like Th these guys look good. they look good to be look I can't' come out. Yeahs Ry brings in Ben Sherman Yeah ye. Yeah, the Sherman tanks, what were you using before Matilda's Valentine. Matilda's great. These these British tanks, right? Those are Brish. tanks were the German tanks, but now the Americans have invented a better tank than the Germans and we're getting those ones. Kind of, yeah. The Ghermans's useful because it's just like fucking Lego just stick it together from old bits and like if it gets blown up, often the crew survive and just get out the back. I think Bill Burr said We based in McDonald's them. Yeah, whichich is such a funny Be it' what they did like they McDonald's Russia. It just f hundred percent buildt than like a fucking hamburger. So R Rommel said or a German said the sand was alive with fire. Every ridge seemed to hold guns waiting for us. into a trap, essentially, Rommel retreats And at this point Monty's reputation is enhanced. Now let's just chat a bit about his kind of look because he makes his own again, it's part of this aura. An influencer, he's very branded away. Yeah totally. Yeah ye. he he wears a black beret. Big shorts. This is the high point for British big shorts. Big short. After this the shorts get longer. they become trousers and and we lose the gph. lose something. The press in World War two plays much bigger role than World War one at the world. You don't really have these sorts ities the birth of this. Black B is armored divisions. So it's like the tank guys are like, yeah, he's one of ours.eresting. It's like a kind of nod to them. they get a real kick out of it. But then you know with the SAS, they started wearing beige barts. But then when they would go back to Cairo after missions, fights would break out because they're all very difficult men. and they would get laughed at bigig Sies gamons. for having white beres and their fights to break out. So they had to then go to red beres. Right? Yes, ye It's also like it's such a funny trap Yeah to give the maddest toughest men in yourry. the gest hat, that starts fights. Yeah Yeah. But Monty also with his big shorts had a fly whisk Yeah No I did not know this was I thought I didn't know this was a thing Pursu was to fly swatter But I imagine this is what the fly swwater originated from. I think the fly whiskers is a deterrent and the fly swatter is a killer. Right, I see. Also there's an element of, you know it's much more it's trying to swag it out a little bit. I think it's trying to aar farm a little bit here. Horse's tail, ye, But it's much more impressive But every general chose like recognizable thing like Paton was always seen with the Well, I guess is that just not the normal helmet? I guess. Yeah, but you not still it's like a it's like a helmet You'd wear like a general's hat as opposed to a service helmet. And he seemed to be wearing wearing a helmet indoors all the time. It always looked a bit weird. It always looked like a autistic as well. He sort of look like a deliververy driver for picking up McDonald's.. He had two pearl handled revolvers on each hip. You got. that's cowb boy. That's That is pretty cool. That's real Ude Hussein Yeah But Monty and him don't get on. To difficult men. And I think it's Monty's fault, to be fair, we have to concede. Yeah, but I don't think Monty got on with anyone. No. No. Do doesn't seem that way But didn't need he wasn't there to get on with them He was there to get a job done. It's very morale boosting to have any general that is willing to do even one thing that a normal soldier would do. There's some German general that would always insist on still having like an infantry issue rifle with him. Yeah. Now the desert Air Force bec plays an increasingly dominant role as well. by the time Monte wants air supremacy before He will attack. Uh, Second battle of it Iess well. Again, it sounds very obvious when he does it. He's likeoritys I really would like that. But again, this is because the Germans have failed to knock out Malta. they guuess is Greece too far to be launching air raids? Probably is. Yeah But it's being able to like rebase stuff, right? Like Yeah and hop from from wherever to Malta to North Africa. Yeah. There's a big old Malta becomes very important. It's one of the first things in the game. you have to raid Malta. Okay That's one of the first parts of the hundred turns that is one turn When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed sponsored jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this shel will get a seventy five dollars sponsored job credit at indeed dot com slash podcast That's indndeed d. com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apppply. Ne a hiring hero? This is a job for indndeed sponsored jobs. The FIFA World Cup is here and you can now feel the thrill of the pitch in FIFA World Cup Launch Eedition on Netflix, a fast and fluid football game where your phone is the controller and the TV is the stadium. Play for your country in sixteen different stadiums with up to four friends. all included in your membership. sccroll to the games tab on your TV and play FIFA World Cup Launch Eedition, now, only on Netflix Your package says delivered, but delivered where exactly? The hallway, the lobby, your neighbor's apartment? Instead of playing detective with your deliveries, get a mailbox at the UPS store. We'll sign for your packages. Text you when they arrive. and keep your deliveries low key. Under locking key, get three months free mailbox services with a new annual agreement at the UPS store For full details and to get your coupon, visit the UpSore d. com slash offer. But also the enigma Ces at this point has been cracked by Alan Turing. So again, another autism, British autism, fucking Wor lead world lead. Well, it's what wins the war ultimately. in this theatre. Fucking ye. Not wasting our time funneling these kids to chess matches or something. No. Montin Turing, it's fucking. Yeah. So Dy go York. fucking That means that we can constantly stop. supplies reaching Rommel He runs out. Now Rommel is absolutely knackered by after L Halfa Yeah. This is when he goes back Germany, seeptember forty two. Yeah. he has been on speed for eighteen months. A long time Too long. in forty degrees Yeah, ye. And he's also he's now what his his leadership style, right is that he's know because he was in World War one as well, and both him and Monte felt in World War O that the top brasss were too disconnected, there was too big a chain of command. although the Germans' whole thing actually was more about improvisational chaos. They were starting that improro They improv T.'s a Yess.ro. doctrine. Yeah, ye. we areland us. ye So Rommel's thing is that he rides in the front line in an armored car with a an escort. And sorry, not not a Southeast Asian woment. because I mean I mean a guy with a gun opposite of an acal, really? That's what you're into, Iess. Itry, there's just every time I think that one of the first Gary D Laney jokes I've ever heard ill the esc out with diesel. she died. Anyway. P phenomenal joke. So U Romel was fucked and and but his replacement cannot he tries to mimic Rommel's leadership style Yeah. So there's a guy called General Gorg Schumer. Now he's a fat guy sounds fat He sounds Schumer. Geor Schumer? It's very Gustus S sort no. Schumer. Yeah ye. So he's now he has high blood pressure U there he is. Yeahah, he doesn't look right, does he He has high blood pressure and he comes in in forty two. And he tri if the first thing he does, I think this is maybe Maybe E Lamain second battle has started at this point. It's the first day. So Monte opens with a fucking ten hour barge barrage sorry, ten hour barrage on the German front lines. and The first instance is Operation Lightfoot and this is because as Per said, they put so many mines down. Yeah. So they do they take their shoes off and try and walk through them? So the mines are mainly anti tank mines. so' if you're guy would set it off. Right, okay. So they a reassuring thing to be told. No, they creep through. We're quite sure. probablyrobably. Yeah. They creep through and they try and disable these mines, I guess after the bombardment or during it I don't know But I think a lot of people still die and it takes a long, long time. But this is where Schumer, Rommel's replacement. He comes to the front line he accidentally goes to fce into like by the Allied guns. He's not in an armored car. He's just in a Jeep the driver, a commander, gets immediately shot in the head by an anti tank gun. So his head blow like collapses, like explodes. He g gone He's lost his head. It's Pulgas gone. his hand's gone. Yeah, he's there just being like on. he's not driver's like a three point turn andmediate tries to get out of there The force in which he turns means Stumer falls out the car and he's hanging onto the car like this while this's gunfire drives already red face gets. It's really fat, red face, high blood pressure. And then he arrives back behind the lines and he realizes that the general is no longer attached to the car. And then three days later they find his body in the desert with no bullet wounds, no scratches He just had a heart attack from stress. Really? Yeah It's the fact I fe out a car and had a heart attack. This is Pure fs. Yeah. But that's the general. Yeah. that's Romel's replement of Christ. It's funny to think that must be how so many people died in the war. It was also it was an incredibly yeah, very stressful place. And if you smoke eighty a day, like everyone does. Yeah, yeah. Yeah exactly. There's also the idea of the general. We're talking about there's only a couple of generals that stand out in World War two. Yeah. It's funny to just think about all these other generals who could not E exactly. There's a reason you haven't know of Stoma. Yeah. Like is there like does he have a philosophy on military history? We don't know what stumer is. Maybe want to writ a book about it. Be as fat as possible.. and don't wear a seatbt. Just drive around. Yeah, ye. So anyway This is this is the first the first day after the second Battle of Al Alamne starts, which is what's the date of that? twenty third of october forty two. Right. So Hitler frantically contacts Romel, who is in like a spa town somewhere. Yeah. they love it. He's having a lot of steam. He's having a sauna in, I guess this would be South Germany. Is that that's pretty unaffected from? He's doing German healthy things. He's doing jumping jacks He's in a sauna He he's drinking los of mineral water. He's in the Grand Budapest hotel,. Yeah be fair. I do I would like to change the film a little bit. want like to pointerm The forties wellness, if you can strip the politics out of it, does look the vibe. One of the many things that'veost, they' been ruined by the not, they had a couple of things. Mbe bath water again. And what a warm bath water it is Let's not throw anything out. Let's just have a bath. It's kept the cultural enthusiasm for nudity. Yes.. Something about, you know, doing jumping jacks in the out Yeah, nude. Yeah I'm into L you like a chewing gum advert. Yeah of freshness. It's the front of it's the front of a fucking milker bar. That's where I want to live. Yeah. And now I'm going to David Lloyd in a basement with flashing lights being shouted at by Tyrequ, you know Maybe the wrong side on the walk. What could have been Anyway, so Hitler frantically gets Rommel back to the front lines, even though Rommel has not yet, I guess what purged himself of eighteen months of speed. No. Somehow he gets back pretty quickly With a few days, I think. Is he? Yeah, I think so So's gone down by the time he's back. Yes it was some big stuff. So what's happening at this point the We're in the second battle of Alamed. which which is Stimer has fallen. has literally. Strimmer burst big sausage Yeah. He's casing burst. He's casing burst. Germans are the most satisfyingly fat people in the planet. Yeah The Americans, there's like a bubbly second fat German Yeah the pills and a sausage buildill. the reton Quickest to draw fat people because it's just that snow mass. Overlapping circles. Yes.. And there's a shininess to it. Yes, there's a sheently embarrassed cheek. Glow. Yeah. It's like a pregnant glow. Yeah fat. Yeah. Oh, you're glowing. You're glowing.ave youve been promoted? Yeah. So Rommel arrives back, yeah, three days later He's he's missed a lot of stuff. Yeah. So what's happened The Aussies have taken a whole bunch of little hills. Right. Which are like Th these are like dunes. This is the desert? Yeah, they're like three meters high. So I find this quite hard to visualize Yeah the because it's not like, you know, I can visualize like you were saying in Normandy, I can visualize a small French village that I've been to on holiday When I go there, I can go right there's a bell tower, there's a sniper up there. a tank is rolling through. I can see it all happening. The cafe chairs are still out there. the desert I mean, I've never been to the desert, but also it's just sands, right? It's got on the second day, right? It's like nothing's been. That's it. And so like what maximum visibility? Yeah. And it's open. So just imagine a rolling desert leading up to what looks like the horizon, but actually a gentle slope means it's about three meters higher than where you are and so you're dead So like be you what is what is like holding a position? How are you saying go and get that hill. There's ridges, right? There's a few like bigs. bigig ridges that are like, oh shit, that's really worth getting. That's like twenty five meters high. Right above sea level. But yeah a of it is just like our dune was slightly higher so we could just machine gun. So sorry, Charlie's got an important question. How thick is sand and can I think it's sand. Can't you just burrow and be a molt go through the sand? I think it just blows away. This sand apparently is like flower, they say. It's really fine. Right. L horrifyingly fine sand. L you can't crawl You can but they see you. They could just see you in there. It's not always very deep sand I'd like to see you try crawling up the front lines and then just see. But this is that way I' thinking. You know before it worked, I how thick is the sand? Yeah. these are the questions you have to ask. Yeah ye Exactly. Let's burrow in. Yeah, yeah yeah. everyveryone dies. Okay. work. But now we knowross've got to try things Yeah. I think the hills that Ausies take are decent like twenty meters high or something they do pretty well. And also why I like this theatre of war is that it's probably is the last great Hara of Empire and it's We win this without the Americans and there's Australians, there's India there's Africans and it also its men in big shorts Rinbow Calition. It is the Rinbow Calition. Yes. That's what I' an ally for this rainbow flag. Right. And they they it's men in big shorts who have learned authority in India Yes, you know, using the landscape and also as we discussed in the SAS series, you have a regiment called the Long Range Desert Group who were there anyway before the war Yeah charting the desert. Yeah. So you know, the whole the idea of the British Empire being full of scholars who like to chart data is a secret weapon. D deffinitely Yeah yeah yeah Eness that Romel doesn't have. Hopyists. Yeah. totally. it's not it's the same people who now do bouldering Rriip to n, riip to nur Yeah Yeah. ye you got a disagree and you just love suffering. Yeah, the rock climber's bod because they've got the nerd face. They rectangle glasses and they're built like Jesus.. you see someone who looks like an embarrassing geography teacher. He's a sniper who speaks seven languages. Yeah. This is the magic of the Yeah, we have lost something actually not being at war. So Rommel arrives back on the twenty fifth or of October and from this point it becomes really grim and attritional. It's, you know, it's Merino against PP. he shrunk the pitch. So the axis communications start to break down because as you say, Montyte has got so many more resources at this point, which is why he's attacked that he's just draining Rommel everyvery time the longer battle goes on Then we get to the phase between the twenty six and thirty first of October, which gets described as barbaric, where Close range artillery are blowing men apart Men get squashed by tanks This is just the worst just thing you can Yeah there's a film. Is it same P Ryim or Bandner Bothers where that happens? all quite in the Western front. Yeah.t. But that's the worst war film I've ever seen in terms of actually what it would be like. Yeah. horrible. So You've not seen all quite on the westernont the German one. No I keep trying toggest it. Cander keeps saying no. It's amazing. It's good They get really excited to go to war and then they Yeah, I do want to see that one. It's very good. but the snap the snapping the sound in the film of a man being squashed by a tank is it's it's just like cave. It's not good man. Yeah so it' bad. It's not a nice ide. You shouldt be buug like So Nody needed aircut. Oh Well, I'm having a massage. A more pressure actually. Yeah like it for. Yeah. It descends much like the Falklands into kind of fist and knife fighting R down up small hill jumping into trench And sand sandy stuff as well's pretty grim. I think Directly fighting someone with your fist or like a hammer maybe be the most sad and scary way of going It is crazy how, you know, this this is intimate. This is so sad This war, like there's so much artillery, machinery, it's the sort of In many ways the peak of industrialized warfare because every war since people have basically been holding stuff back It's unfair. it'ste It's delete country.te Yeah. we're going to reformat. this out Yeah Yeah ye. It's basically the same as playing a video game.. Anyway This like the fact that you just you would just throw your gun away and then just then just start fighting a random guy like it's a pub. You have to pick up a spade and try and chop someone with it. That' crazy degrees Yeah just the heat of it. Yeah. sometometimes in tunnels under the ground as well. Yeah fighting doll raases.. So now the Allies are benefiting from the fact that they're pretty close to Cairo and Alexandria. so the supply route are a lot shorter. Yeah. It's a long, long way back. and Gaddafi Y not he is born. Is Is he born Nine forty two. forty two So Gaddafi for reference is about four months old four months old, there's a four month Gadafi amongst all of this. And he's aemini. He's a Gemin. makes s It all makes sense. It makes sense. Well, yeah, he would be, wouldn't he? Yeah he would be. He would be. So he didn't know what he wanted. Middle Eastern or you're Africa? Yeah. on G listen get me back's start We'll never finish this We're on the second battle of E Alame and we're talking about Gaddafi, you know, people's listening their prostates won't handle this.. The second November onwards, we get to Operation Supercharge, which is Monty's final offensive big push. This is the decisive phase of A Alamain. This is where basically Romel gets defeated. Yeah. accross the entire line, everyone's been doing at the northern bit that actually matters with the railway and the ports and the bits where you can live. Yeah. So sorry when we say at Alamain, we mean a stretch of I don't know, one hundred miles? Yeah at least Maybe at least. it' quite a big stretch, a gap between a depression of sand which is inhospitable and the coast. Yeah, right Car And very top the Aussies have made good headway. The Highlanders have, But everyone else has kind of taken bits but not cracked it. Yeah. And Monty takes a bunch of troops out. I think the Kiwis mainly and he figures he can remove enough of them to create a new attacking force to do supercharge. A are the kiwis in battle? For me, I wouldn't trust them as much. Cind and they're just a bit polite. you know, theseese are the old Kiis. Oh. These are the guys that found Australia too woke. Right and founded New Zealand. Yeah Yeah. so what happens now, I think, is that they get a he gets a tank regiment, one hundred and fifty tanks, maybe And he says we're going to punch you through the axis lines and you should expect one hundred percent casualties.. It's basically a suicide mission. And in the end, it's seventy five percent casualties. They lose one hundred and twenty tanks. I imagine that means the people in them go as well. Not necessarily, but's we have the shows. you can kind of dip out the back if it's starting to burn up or something. Yeah. So this is Brigadier John Curry is told to that And so it's basically a one last push A seven hour aerial bombardment, a four hour artillery barrage Anda wait this is the Britits going breaking through the line. That's very unmonte to risk. Noob' in he goes right with one push with one hundred percent casualties will actually break that. Okay, so it's quite rare for him to actually do I guess he picks his moment.. There's another armored regiment behind the one that they think will be wiped out, ready to go And they basically just look at it and go, look, with all the bombing and stuff, demine as much as you can, but just fucking go for it. Go for it. Yeah, Charge the light brigadees sort of stuff. Yeah. And so this is the charge that ultimately gets in behind Rommel Which means that Rommel's encircled, which is the sort of death trap, right? Maybe one of there. Maybe he likes that sort of stuff. Maybe. He don't speak for. He's been in Burghheim re covering. new stuff. Getting in behind's not that bad, actually ye. There's no chill out room in the desert, R There's no chill out room in Burghheim either. You think there isn't And then there's no idea of what a chill out room is being fisted by four men. Yeah, so ye that's not I like to unwind That's a break for these guys ye Now, so Rommel contacts highigh commommand and says we've been our lines been punched through, we're basically surrounded. L says Victory or death You don't retreat Direct orders to Rumel Now Hitler at this time is quite distracted. He's got a lot on.D as well. He had to have ADHD. He did ye. He had a sunflower lanyard and Stalingrads happen. Yeah which is his big his And also ADHD meds were not invented yet were they Were they Charlie Elvance and stuff like that Yes, is Perton Perverton be the closest thing too? Yeah. So I imagine it'site hard to focus on one thing It's day seven, actually. Okay, well, you probably should be taking some of that So he could focus on multiple fronts. Yeah. but he's also micromanaging Starling grs. I don't know if he's doing that by this point. He's hyperfoccused on it. Yes. I he probably is because this is in November. Yeah. this is where He's's micromanaging me, Hitler. He now h's to be like, give you some space. Yeah you're just Yeahah. backat driving. That's the problem is that he then he then tries to organize an airlift in Stalingrad. I don't know whether this is the right time or it might be later on. Which is impossible. This is the trend of the rest of the war. It's that the tilt of the war is happening in North Africa and Barbarossa. The whole first phase of the war happened one way and the whole second phase of the war happened pretty was the same way. The turning point is a alumine. It is this is an aline Hitler, it goes so well Hitler thinks he's a genius and then he never backs down. And all of the Nazi failures happen the same basically here and out. Yes. They're gambling on if we win Stalingrad and the Soviet Union implodes, then we'll make peace with the Western powers. Right. They're hoping that that's like they even now they still think they they want Britain to come up the table. just now. even out there somewhere now. they think they think they' to peace. incredibly sunburnt Germany. still out there now in the al like a doar jump. So the pre. Yeah. No, they really think like Once we demonstrate that and we defeat them in the east, then they come to their senses the very least they'll le us alone. Have you watched, I'm sure you have the new Tom Hanks twenty part series in World War twoI No I haven't seen itet. I've started it.'s It's on Netflix. It's on Now TV I've watched twenty part sereries of Worldar I two. I wonder what this new twenty parts series of World W two is going to tell me about World War To at the other time that I thought I' put's the new take. Listen, Amanda was out and as ever, I watched Bandon Brothers again for the fifth time recently.. I've watched the World of War twice in the last year. So I was like, know what it's a new one. And it's very fast ped. Maybe the ending's different. Mbe maybe. Maybe they win. Maybe they win this time. It is actually it's actually very well done. It it's u You know, because there's no there's no veterans in it, fucking Yeah, But no they just rattle through it and they tell the story raise badly, brother. Yeah, come on. Look like wet scrambled egg I'm You know,'s it's made for a more kind of online generation, right? Yeah. So just narratively it's quite how theyoose to do it. So every' only watched the first few episodes. I like KSI doing talking H Tom Hanks does an opening sort of piece of prose to camera that is very it's very good the writing is very good and p youranks And these's Tom Hanks and then also I started watching epode one and then I fking I'd obviously watched just all three. I was just having a great D and come. Mind the cameame, I' come everywhere.anks on scen What do you want me to do? You can't leave me. Was it like World War two for Zomers or was it actually decent No I don't know Well I'd be interested in that I mean, it to tell you nothing really. Well they're saying things like itit had a lot of Aura ye ye ye. No actually's giving he knife mogg to the A. Yeah ye. it's giving genocide No, he Holocaust maxed. he did. But no it had allegedly. But yeah, no it was it was good. It's just well done. I mean it's not it's nothing I'm watching you thinking like There's nothing I don't really know, but it's just presented in a nice way and they have actually digitally enhanced a lot of footage and photos that I hadn't seen before, so. We digital hunt Oh you mean make it R Not like AI them sort as like. No, no. They're like d dancing and doing tchn. It's not of those things you always see You see like Monty going like. No, it's always like people keep sending me reels of like Hitler's been spotted at a football game. It's just an AI guy in a crowd as Hitler. keep sending you there. the shit we get What just I just showed you a Nazi mother's Cross downstairs. Yeah I get loads of shit anyway, but I get some shit because I think I'm sort of the soft underbelly to get into you sometimes Really? They think they'll send me stuff they don't they assume that you won't respond but they think there's a chance. Can you be showing Finn this? and of course it'll be just the same Hitler. Hitler again. It's really important to me that Finn sees this blurry AI rendering of Hitit watching Charlton.s right. bleeding outlease get. Right. Anyway, so Hitler says Romel you don't retreat And this, as we said, Rommel's not actually U a Nazi, although yet, he's one of the more Nazi guys who's ever lived and they fought for them R was anoxy. Yes. but he's also he's he's not loyal to Hitler in the way that the Guring is or other generals are.'s you're saying he sort of did it with like No No no. firstirstly, this is the only theater of war with no war crimes It's the only theatre with no war crimes in World War two, rightight?'s a gentlem It's the most cricket,'s most gentlemanly of the of the theaters. probably. The only thing the closest thing to war crime actually is the SAS early stuff where they gun down people Even that's debatable Exactly it's actually their' soldiers, so it's not really a war crime. Because I back myself militarary it is weirdly My instinct, when I was thinking some of the problems here because I was always trying to think, what would I do? With trying to clear the mindes, my first instinct was to get those hundred thousand Italian prisoners of war and make them walk through it. But that would be a war crime. Yeah. So maybe it's lucky I wasn't Yeah because my first thr was a crime. See? It's so quick to j No it's easy. you might say, you know, because that was people in Gard sort it out. one hundred thousand walking in a line theashioning noise, onene of those Italian stepp on anal Chrice Anyway, so Rommald basically ignores Hitler and he retreats to try and save the force. Yeah. just ignore him. the Italians behind because they don't have any vehicles. Yeah And he's like,, good luck, okay. Yeah, the Italians luck, I mean, they love surrendering. It be right. They love surrendering so much that they don't have any tanks.. just they were basically World War One force. All they have is pastor kitchens It's fical. It's absolutely farible. So third November forty two is the final breakthrough Um Rommel's fuel shortes is critical, Rommel then decides, fuck hit Lert we're going back and not kill them man Isn't what he' talking about? So he chooses to retreat Now so they all begin with drawing westward to Libya to avoid encirclement Yeah. So I guess it's just also so hard to visualise. the tanks have broken through. Monte has started to encircle, but I guess the encirclement is such a large area that R can see what's going on and decides Over a matter of hours. How are they mapping? Are they mapping with reconnaissance planes? Yes, ye, yeah. Rommel's particularly keen on having a big storch plane fly around and he sometimes goes up in it Rightself. Oh really? Yeah yeah Right. So and it's the desert, right? so you can just see Ferrageous Yeah yeah yeah. Christ Anyway Yeah So This withdrawal signals Allied victory and it is the first defeat of German forces in World War two. And the big Church quote. The big Church quote is before Alamain, we never had a victory after Alamaine, we never had a defeat. Goes hard Nice. It is the most important theatre of World War twoI.