The Evolution of College Football

Hey, I'm Ben Rothelsberger. Welcome to Football Home with Ben Rothelsberger. This is the basement. Wanted to do a little something unusual today, Spence. We are going to give you an unbelievable episode that we shot last week before the draft with Max Starks, where we talk about his predictions of the draft, talk a lot about um Super Bowl 40, Super Bowl 43, a lot of really cool things. A great episode. But we felt that since the draft just happened, we had to give you guys a quick little um recap of the draft, our my two cents, our two cents on what we did for the draft. So we're gonna give you a quick little nugget um special feature on the draft and then get right into Max's episode. Got to. You gotta do it. We were gonna wake it because we've we filmed that before the draft and we actually did a little prediction. You'll see it in the episode following this little pretty cool thing. But we have Max predicted. So check out Max prediction. You can't not talk about the draft. So we don't want to wait another week to talk about it. So here it is. This is the this is Ben's take. Now it's an interest ing very interesting because uh you made your way down there making your way down tan yeah with down tan yeah that opening was that they did brother you could have you could have fooled me that that wasn't just for the city of Pittsburgh. That I know it was for like all of the teams and it took place in Pittsburgh, but brother, the numbers I think that got back, I think over the course of the weekend was 800,000 people, three hundred thousand the first night. Before we jump into the picks, real quickly, what was that experience of you going down there on Thursday night? Yeah, it was pretty cool. Uh I took Benjamin down uh and and you know they talked about all the traffic. There wasn't really bad traffic. And then you kind of got to the north shore. And then it turned into like there was police. There was security. We had to we we got because of the car that that picked us up, we were able to get we had a pass that was able to get us kind of back. But you know, you had to stop two blocks away . We had to get out of the car, go through metal detector, get back, got the car searched, get back in the car, go through a couple barricades, get dropped off at the stadium, go through another metal detector. Jeez. Uh, and then we got to the green room, and the second we walked into the green room, um Heinz Ward was in there, Mel Blunt was in there, Lin Swan was in there, uh TJ Watt was in there, Cam. Uh and then right away, as soon as we walked in, we saw Terry Bradshaw. And Terry was unbelievable. He grabbed Benjamin and I, and the three of us literally spent 20 minutes talking in the corner just about just everything from he was talking about golf. If I asked him Benjamin about his golf, told us where he played when he was here in Pittsburgh and the driving range. And it was just so much fun to um actually you might like Terry's kind of golf. Yeah, I know you like the golf. You're getting into it. He says, I was talking to when I talked to his wife at the end. I said, you know, you you golf with Terry and everything. Cause you know, he was telling us that they golf together. And she goes, Yeah. And I was telling him I want to get my wife into golf when she's done with school. And he said, or she said, yeah, we call it Bradshaw golf. So if we're in the bunker, we take it out. If it's in the rough, we move it over. I'm like, oh, that's a lot of people. My wife would like that kind of thing. Bradshaw golf sounds great, Terry. I would love to go out and play a Bradshaw golf. I you know what? I've been playing Bradshaw golf since it started. Actually, now I think about it. Yeah. But that but it was really cool to be with him. I mean, I think some of y'all um, the family out there saw the pictures that we posted of of the three of us together. That was really cool. I mean, and and Benjamin just said he, told my dad, he said, it was so cool. We were talking to Mr. Mr. Terry. And he was like, he was like just like a grandpa. Like he was so cool telling stories. And he was so loving and kind. And and and it was just really special to be there. And then at one point, Mel Blunt grabs Benjamin, like around like puts his arm around him and says, Hey everybody, he goes, This is the guy that won my golf tournament. He won closest to the pin, and he's holding court, right, with Heinz and Lin Swan and all these people, and it's just him under Benjamin's arm. Dang and all these guys listened, and Benjamin just like so it was it was it was a really cool experience. And then they grabbed us and took us to the side stage, and Benjamin and I were on one side, and um and we got to see the whole intro and be around all the the the the unbelievable military personnel that went out for the national anthem, which I don't TV. I don't know if they didn't I don't I didn't see I had to catch the clips as I was uh chasing um toddlers around that's my house yeah that's that was understandable but but and then they they got us out on stage and to go out there and then hearing the warm ovation from the crowd and then um embracing Terry on the stage and then uh just just a really really cool environment cool experience and just looking out and seeing mass of people was was just so surreal. What a beautiful day for Pittsburgh. The weather was great. The city's so beautiful. It did such a it was it it showed so well. You know, and it's what you expect. I think Pittsburgh can get a bad name for being dirty or the cold, the steel, all the stuff that it used to be. People don't give it enough credit for how it is now. You've got some amazing sections of this town, uh , you know, and and just I think it just it it anybody that came in, because I think people there was this this stigma of like we're not gonna go to Pittsburgh, and I think anyone that came was I hopefully was like, man, this is what a beautiful city. Because a lot of people I've talked to, when they come here for the first time, they're like, wow, I didn't realize you come through the four-pit tunnel, bang, and it's just 100%, bro. I will say this as somebody who was born and raised in Tampa and lived in California. Like, I have my gripes with Pittsburgh, but it's just because of the winter. Yeah, it's more I have a problem with w inter as a whole. The month of February just seems like like when I get to have it, I'm like, so what's up with um February? Like we still doing you still you thought that was a good one. Okay, they man. You would know you would know your so I I get get that. But I think it is important when there's a time when your city is put on such a uh like international stage to give it its flowers. Like Pittsburgh is a beautiful city. Yes. And I for me, it's again being a transplant, being indoctrinated by the Yinzers. I'm like, I anytime I go back, people are like, oh man, what's your favorite thing about Pittsburgh? It's it has to be the people. It's like a cheesy answer, man. But like it's I hope people who came into the city got to experience that man because it was it was really cool to see our city put on display and it be such a successful event. Yes. Yep. It was awesome. And it was, you know, such a great time. And again, we were in and out pretty quick, but it was um a really a cool experience for Pittsb urgh and and the city and the people. So congratulations everybody. Yeah I just think about that man. Like I obviously have a unique perspective of Steelers Nation just because of our relationship and what we do here. But it was so cool to see all that. I'm just thinking about some of the friends I have in the city that grew up born wrapped in a terrible towel to see all you guys on stage. Like I'm like, all them rings, just sitting there, like, what a beautiful moment. Whoever orchestrated that, all you guys for being a part of it to give that to the city. Kind of talks about the conversation uh that we had uh with Willie and and some of the topics we have with Willie and um and some of the other conversations that we have coming up as well. But it's uh just talking about giving back to the city, man. It was just such a good uh people talk about it I know there was a movie that was released about about you know um Pittsburgh being a football uh a football town I'm like I think it's the yeah it's I've I've been to Green Bay I've been to Chicago I've been like Detroit's a good one too but like pretty special here. It's a different anime. Greatest fans in all the sports. And they bleed it. That's pretty cool. Yeah. It's a it's a it's a team that like you're excited to be proud of. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So let's jump into the draft, man, because I feel like uh man, it it it it got got weird early. It got weird early, but I want to get your takes on it, man. So let's start start around one. Uh did you guys you guys didn't stay down? No, we we got uh we got out of there as soon as we could because it was so late as uh you know we'd uh we'd do something Friday morning so we had to get back but yeah we were in now we got home in time it was like I'm going to bed and it was like pick 18 and I'm like well I might as well just stay up a couple more picks and see who the Steelers are gonna I kept waiting for him to trade up. I know okay so that we talked about it. What we talk about on Max's episode what you Yeah, I thought that too. But obviously, you know, things played out and then and then obviously the big news I think early was the wide receiver drama at the twentieth twentieth pick. The twentieth pick. It lo s from from the reports uh that I read and heard and that everybody's talked about is that the Steelers were on the phone with uh the young man from USC. And I think Pittsburgh was excited for that. I think it was gonna be an unbelievable weapon for Aaron or Aaron Rodgers or whoever quarterback's gonna be here. Yeah, so think it's gonna be Aaron, but uh And then all of a sudden, the for back lack of a better word, the Eagles swooped in. Oh, look at you. Nice bird phrase. And got him. Yeah. And so I I wonder what like, you know, hoping the Steelers were prepared for what once and are best available. And so I think, you know, line was obviously a uh a a need and and a one. They needed and they wanted it. And so uh you know that's that's what happened. So I think when that when when Makai gets taken right before him, it's like, okay, well, let's let's get back in get back into it, you know? Yeah, it was a crazy experience. I the more I looked at it and I was talking to uh the resident chef Evan, uh, I'm like, I felt more of like a dirty deed by the cowboys. It was like they wanted to stick it to us one more time. Like I mean those two that's c in division, man. You're gonna you're gonna you're gonna help your boy like you're gonna help your opponent out. Yeah it seems weird to hate on us though. You know what I mean? So yeah, it was a unique thing too. And I wonder what's going through uh Max Ahenator , uh uh I believe isn't how you pronounce it. Forgive me if I'm getting that wrong. Listen, I'm Rothelsberger. I I got my We're allowed. We're allowed to mess it up. I'm calling Max, okay? Yeah, I I've had my mine's only three letters and it's you'd be amazed. Uh yeah, it'd be amazed at the how many different variations. I didn't even know. Anyway, so Max, my man from A Arizona State. Interesting choice because I feel like uh uh some of the the critique is that he hasn't been playing football long. Right. Yeah, I think that's gonna be um I think that's gonna be the the interesting thing. I I I don't I don't know if I love it or hate it, I I would say that I I think it's a good move in the sense they need a lineman. Okay. It seems like from what I've heard and what I've seen is that this guy, this young man, um, if you want to look at like the pros and cons, right? I think the pros or the oh let's go the con look at the cons first cons are or he he really hasn't been playing football that long right that can be good and bad it's it's bad in the sense we're gonna go into a a pros and cons into another pros and cons. The it can be good in the sense that your body is still relatively fresh. You learn it. Yeah, you can't your body's not beat up from playing high school football and college football uh or play you know playing for a lot of years, little league and all that The downside is there's a lot of things you can learn. You've been playing the game, understand the nuances of it. Um so there's there's that about him being kind of new to the game of football. Uh I I heard that he absolutely oh, and another uh a con that I that I remember hearing reading about was a lot of penalties, which you would which you would get if you haven't been played because you haven't played much . Now the pro pros are he's supposedly a man child, right? Like he is just a monster, yeah. Strong. Supposedly had an unbelievable senior bowl. Yeah, played. He's played, you know, started a bunch of games in college. That's always beneficial. You get more than just one year in it so that's that's a a a pro . Um I'm not sure what's going to happen though because he's played such minimal football but it's all been a right tackle. So are you going to move because you you really need a left tackle because of um um Broderick Jones and what we've heard the news we've heard about him and maybe his injury, setback, things like that. So are you gonna throw him at left tackle? Which if he hasn't played a lot of football, he's you know, it's not like he it's ingrained in him that I can only play right. Or are you gonna move um Troy um Fatanu? Fatanu over . So it's like okay, what are we gonna do? Yeah. So that's my question. Where are they going to put him? I assume you're going to want him to play this year. I mean, you'd hate you'd hate for I would hate for my first round pick to be a project. Well, that was gonna be my question. And be like, okay, you know what? In three to five years, he's gonna be a stud. Yeah. You do that with your second, third, four, you, your first round pick, you've got to you have to anticipate him coming in and playing right now. So that makes me a little nervous about the project. Like we could look back on this in three to five years and be like , Omar McCarthy, what a pick. Yeah. Great job. We also could look back on three to five years and be like, what are we doing? Why would you not take a more seasoned guy? Yeah, I think that was some of the I mean the fan reaction, I think was probably indicative of how I felt in that moment. You're a lot of people obviously wanted Mikhailem, like that's that's the whole thing. You wanted a receiver. Um, and then going into to the trenches. A lot of people upset that we didn't get a different receiver because there's they're still receiver notable receivers on the broad. But again, we've been saying this for weeks. You have to continue to build your O-line. So I I don't I don't hate that. Yeah, I don't hate the pick either. I just wonder if there wasn't a a more a more seasoned guy. But again, that's my yes. I i this may end up being one of those ones where it's like, wow, what a s what a steal. What a diamond in the rough. What I know you don't call first rounder a steal, but if he can play football for the next in in twenty in twelve years if we're looking back like hey remember Max remember that show yeah so you know I I think it could be okay. Yeah all right let's go to round two pick forty seven Jeremy Bernard wide receiver from Alabama which is where this is again, after day one a, it felt like there was little bit of panic among us. And then they come back and they get your wide receiver. I like this pick, man. I think this pick is awesome. Yeah, I do too. Um, you know, you you have to be thinking probably as a slot guy. I think he's 6'1, 205. I think he's 6'61, 200 pounds. So not super small. Um, I I think good hands catcher, seven touchdowns, a guy that you can I think utilize and move around. I think it's a smart pick. I think it's a good one for um whoever the quarterback's gonna be. I think you you you throw him into the mix, you've got three pretty darn good receivers right now. And so I think that's uh I think it's exciting. I think it's a good pick. Yeah, I mean he's not tiny. He's not tiny in that regard, but he can play slot. I mean, if you watch some of his tape in Alabama, I mean he's outside, he's inside. It seems like he can kind of just do anything. Right. Um and I just good route runner. I mean all that stuff. That's what you want when you want an inside good a good slot guy. I think he had like five drops total, you know, in his college career or something crazy like that. Like uh so I I thought that was great. It was good to see that they were pouring into that. The next one in in as we're moving along in round three, man, this is the one that's probably one of the more controversial picks outside of the fact, you know, the whole first round debacle, but was Drew Aller. Right. Quarterback out of Penn State. Man, this is one that like, again, you look at him on paper, six five, two twenty-eight, I think is the last time I have him slated here on these stats here. Former five-star recruit. Um I,'ve watched a handful and on the smaller size to handful of games from Penn State. Um I hope everything happens great for this kid in his career. I hope he has a great career. I didn't see much in college that I was like geeked on when this happened. What was your take? I know. Yeah, same I I'm kind of the same way. Uh I'm not this is a t this is one that I'm not sure yet if I love it or hate it. Okay . Uh and and hate's a strong word, whether I'm like, you know, could they third round? I mean, you can get a lot of really good players in third round. Yes. Um I don't think this was done because they know anything about Aaron. It wasn't like, okay, we know Aaron's not coming, so we're doing this. I think it was uh we liked a big physical quarterback. Yeah. Clearly. Yeah. Um down the road, you know, Penn State type thing, but he is coming off an injury. It was an early season injury so that that's you have that I think he had a lot of height behind him at one point I would say this I'm with you I I don't I didn't watch a lot of Penn State games when I did watch, he never jumped off the page to me. Sure. Okay. His is he big? Can he move? Can he throw? Yeah. But he, but it there was never a time when I'm like, whoa. Like, yeah . Now, some of that might be too because he they have some stud running backs and they're handing the ball off a lot. So you there is some of that you know to to take consideration . You know, it's this is gonna be a I uh they're gonna bring him in to compete with Will Howard. I ass you know, I assume if Aaron comes back, they're probably going to move on from Mason, I would think, and let those two young guys compete for the two-and-three job. Sure. If Aaron doesn't come back, then I think you have all three of them competing. Three I think Mason, um, Will, and uh Drew . You know, this one the the jury is out on me right now. Again, he there it was nothing that just jumped off the page from me, but but whether that's good or bad, I don't know. But but it's just um we'll see we'll see about this one yeah I don't absolutely despise this I'm again strong words but I'm not in the negative category with this. I was more confused on why you're using a third round. Seventy six seems a little like hey man, let's just yeah, there it's was there other people available that that your team needed more? Maybe the Steelers feel they that a quarterback and may you know, whether it's Will or whatever it is, they they feel like we need someone to compete with Will, someone else to push it. Will was a sixth rounder . This a third rounder. I think this will push Will. I I just I when I watch tape, or if I watch games, Will Howard jumped off the the tape to me way more than Drew did. You said and third round, six round. It's interesting. You were singing his praises before he even got on the show and you got a chance to tell him that to his face, man. And um but but I would agree. I think the the splay there's moments I think in Will Howard's college career where I'm like, oh without that guy, you're in trouble. Your team's in trouble in this moment. Yeah. Whereas again, I again small sample size, but I I didn't necessarily feel that uh watching Penn State games. On the quarterback position, obviously that's still up in the air with Aaron Rodgers not making a decision or whatever. Do you think them drafting a quarterback impacts Aaron's decision at all? I don't. Not not I because if if Aaron wants to come back, he's coming back. And nothing that I mean I think when you're when you get to a certain level you don't care about who the team brings in. Like this is my job. Yeah yeah. You know when I was playing, I was like, I don't they could trade for Tom Brady. I don't I still think I'll keep my job. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, that's very interesting, man. Well, moving on. Uh I again I'd like to see how it is, especially because you know the quarterback position is going to be, I feel like you have uh your offense is coming together, man. They're paying, you know, they're pouring into the line. There's that. So moving on uh round three, pick eighty-five, Dalen Everett, cornerback, cornerback out of Georgia. How'd you feel when you saw that? Addressing needs. Yep. Right. We knew wide receiver. We knew line. We knew secondary was a need. Uh don't know much about this kid other than I know he's a physical type corner. I think he likes to play man. I think old Steelers, that's what they want to do. I again all new coaching staff, we're not sure what they're going to do , but uh anytime you can get a physical guy, I think it's a good move. I think Georgia is secondary is probably that's a you gotta believe it there. Not a bad place to draft from, right? SEC test. I mean, it's just yeah, that's a physical um program that got over there. This one, it was this next one, I think was my personal favorite. Yeah, I think it's everybody's. I think this is the this is the uh this is the crowd favorite. I think this is the this is everyone's favorite pick of the draft. Well, one of I think the the last one was a was a big one too. But I think this is gonna be everyone's like like you can see this kid I think might have more jerseys. More people are gonna buy his jersey than most other ones. Brother I'm I might buy one right now on air. Yes. This is a round of course we,'re talking about pick ninety-nine, round three, Jennings Dunker out of Iowa. Name brother. His his hair matches his name. He throws ba bales of hay for fun. This is how he gets down, dude. Yeah, this is good. This is the one that you want as a quarterback. You're like this, this is is like the neighbor. We call him the neighbor. You know, we used to have you know, he's the guy that's gonna like like use someone like use someone to push up off of him. He's going to the whistle and just a little past the whistle a little slow he's seeing i don't and i know nothing about this guy just what he seems he seems like a guy that's gonna give you the business yeah and he's gonna love doing it and he's gonna protect his quarterback, whoever it is, and he's gonna fight for him and he's gonna go a little extra. And if you hit the quarterback a little bit late, he might get ejected. Like he seems like that kind of guy. And again, I don't met him. But it seems like he's the guy you want on your squad. And you got that full pretty probably pretty accurate read just from the hair, right? Just from hair and watching him run and doing interview. That's all. I mean, so I talking about pipeline in Georgia with the secondary, I mean, Iowa's gotta be a the Pittsburgh pipeline at this point, right? Light. Lineman Yes, tight ends, Lyman. Those are the guys that come out of Iowa. I mean, this is a guy. So what was interesting about this is not only did it you like the player, obviously for the brand, but also from what you saw on tape, but it it made number the first round pick feel a little bit more comforting to me. Oh okay, okay, okay. Depth yes. Listen, we're trying to add depth and that's important. We can this guy played tackle probably I would think I can see him more as a guard here at this level. So I think that's important. But again, anytime you can have a guy that can can flex around. We had some great linemen in my day, guys like like Trey Essex could play all five spots. The more spots you can play on the line, the longer you last, the more valuable you are. So if this young man was a tackle but now comes into guard, well, guess what? All of a sudden in the game, I got to move him back out the tackle because he can. Yeah, super valuable. Yeah, man. And I think um that is uh uh gotta be the the Pittsburgh, I mean, favorite, right? The sweetheart? I would think so. Well, what's interesting too, man, is that you're talking about your first round draft pick wanting to be a starter. Like this is a guy that in round three, I feel like could probably be a starter this year, maybe takes a little bit of pressure off the first ro I think it w what you wanna see is you wanna see your first round max starting at right tackle and this guy starting at right guard for the next ten years in Pittsburgh. Oh, that's what's up. Yeah, yeah. They're boys, their roommate came in together and they they're they're just that you you couldn't get more opposite. Yep. I mean literally you couldn't get more opposite, but but they could just be boys and they they fight together for the next 10 to 12 years. That'd be awesome. All right, going on to round four, pick one, twenty-one. This is Caden Wiegen, wide receiver returner out of Iowa. This was an interesting one because this young man got the call in the golf course, which is famously. He's that video is out there. Good for him. I didn't. And the hang-up on that was like I the from what I've seen from him, I thought he was a great player, right? But it it did feel like would did we reach a little bit in the fourth round to get him? Yeah, it seems like that little bit. Um, you know, this could have been one I think where people talk about a reach. Uh obviously, he can shut everybody up real quick. But I think the reason that this one happened was because of the loss of Calvin Austin third as a returner. I think that you could look at this guy as maybe a slot receiver, but I think more importantly you're looking as maybe a returner. Yeah. And I think that's kind of what you're thinking right now. Yeah. So I um decided to see how that plays out. Round five pick 169. Riley, noah , Noah Kowski. Noakowski. Excuse me, my brother. Riley, Noah Kowski. Uh this is your fullback tight end out of Indiana. All right. Obviously filling some holes here, man. What you what was your thought there? Yeah, this is a fill for Connor Hayward. Obviously, losing him to the Raiders, I believe. Uh you need to have that guy that can probably a core special team, or I'm guessing this this young man's a is a special team guy. And so uh you're gonna you're gonna utilize him in that area, and then any kind of run game that uh the coach decides to use, it's probably won't be a lot, they'll you know put him in there for they need a fullback. Yeah, I was like, well W,ell what's well because as Charlie was talking about the West Coast offense, man, what was that? Yeah, not not typically not a lot of fullback, but I think you'll get some in there. Cool, cool. I'm trying to like John Coon was was there in Green Bay. I think he was with them and he was a fullback here though. So they go. All right, round six as we're moving on, pick uh two ten, Gabriel Rubio, defensive tackle out of Notre Dame. This was one that kind of got me head scratching too. Only for the sheer fact, no disrespect to you, Mr. Rubio, but I was unaware of your resume uh heading into this draft. So you have a good one? No. Oh I I'm not saying it's bad. I just I was unaware. I didn't like I had this the first time I heard the name. Listen, I know nothing about him. I would say he's from Notre Dame, so Chef Evans probably happy. Oh yeah, that's true. Maybe he's maybe stamp approval. It's all the mess. Yeah, yeah. If we can get Ed down here to all right, so round seven moving forward. I hope it's great. Listen, I hope you have a great career. Stay healthy, get paid, brother. All right, round seven, pick two twenty-four. This is Robert Spears, Jennings. This is, I thought probably should have gone sooner in the draft. And this is something a position you've been talking about for a minute. Safety, Oklahoma. Safety, physical guy, fast , um, efficient. You know, when you talk about efficiency, doesn't miss a lot of tackles, is a guy that need back there in the in in the secondary, can can make plays, but I like the I like the physical and the speed element because it's a guy that you can have cover a lot of ground. Yeah. Yeah, and I think uh again, I think that was probably the steal of our of our draft there. All right, last one, but certainly not least. This is round seven pick 230. Eli Heidenreich. This is the running back out of Navy who had maybe the greatest storyline moment of the draft. Hometown kid sitting there in his dressed in his blues, looking sharp, gets to walk down the tunnel on that immaculate stage, see the Pittsburgh skyline off in the distance, an entire city cheering for his dream that just was there. He was there, walked out , sh shook Raj's hand, looked at his hometown, tears running down his face, tears running down my face. It was a beautiful moment, brother. Yes. What was your thought about this? Yeah. So you you said the the the junker dunker one, Dunker, Junker, whatever. Uh yes, Dunker. Dunker. Was the the crowd favorite. If it's not that one, it's this one. Um I got a text on this one from uh a buddy of buddy of ours, Kevin Shields, who's from Mount Lebanon, and just said, Hey, what a classy move by the Steelers taking this kid. What a great kid. Story. I mean, anytime you can support the Naval Academy, the you know, any of the the service um men and women, Army, Navy, Air Force, any of those uh schools . Uh this is a cool one. I'm excited to see. I don't know what exactly they're gonna use them for, but it could be returner, could be uh maybe a like a receiver kind of guy, like just just maybe like a Swiss Army knife. Yeah, I'm seeing it could be our Swiss Army knife. I'm seeing more that supposedly got some good speed too. Yeah, and and the comparables, I think for some of his college, his senior year, they put it up against Christian McCaffrey, man. So there have been a lot of comparisons to Christian McCaffrey. Yeah, and I mean, but when you see the stats, you're like, okay, brother, again, different animal. But uh I if he can fill those shoes, brother, I think that's another steal. Um and I this is a conversation as we're wrapping this up that we had about Coach McCarthy as he entered. And you mentioned it before. What what um degree of impact does being from the city, understanding Pittsburgh DNA, uh like how does that impact these decisions and what impact do you think it'll make on his career? My kid's gonna give everything he's got. I mean, nothing he wouldn't anyway, but but even more so, he he's gonna he's gonna go at it. He's gonna it it it's good. This is special special for him. And so I'm excited to kind of see what he does. And you know you're gonna get, you're gonna he's gonna leave it all in the field. You know that, and so I'm excited to to kind of see what he how Eli does. I think we all are, man. Yeah, and well, we're all rooting for you, brother. I mean, I'm rooting for all you guys, all of them yeah, we're rooting for all you guys. Anything we say on this show, I mean, that's just we know nothing. We hope all you guys are successful and have long careers here in Pittsburgh help us bring uh another Lombardi back here. Yes, I agree with that back half that sentiment. You said we know nothing. I know nothing. You know a little something, bro. All right, but uh yeah, let's let land this plan and show these people this episode. Yeah. All right, everybody. Thank you for tuning in for the quick little sneak peek of our draft. Uh stay tuned right now. I promise you will not disappoint you. Max Starks is absolutely awesome. Great stories. Uh great uh laughs and uh just a great human being so stay tuned right now max stark's coming at you all right welcome back to the basement this is footballing with Ben Rothersberg I'm Ben He's Spence and we are so happy to be joined by a dear, dear friend of mine, a longtime teammate, a guy who blocked all over the place for me. Um, and uh again, just a dear, dear friend, uh, my good teammate number 78, Maximilian Starks. Hey, welcome to the basement, brother. Good to be down here, Benjamin. Um, yes, Max and I. That's good. Okay. There you go. See? No, Max, that's actually a Belgian drink. That he was super excited about because he's been to Belgium drinking Alagash. I don't know. Yeah. Alagash trip. That was last week's episode. Yeah, that was leftover from Willie Parker. With Willie Parker. So um we are so excited, Max, to have you here. Uh thank you for taking the time out to um join us to reminisce to talk about Steeler time together when you and I played a long, long, long time ago. Yeah. Talk Super Bowls. We're gonna talk uh kind of current state of the Steelers, what's been going on, talk draft. Um, obviously, this show is airing this is this is after this is post- draft. Yeah. So we're gonna actually let you we're filming this before the draft, just so everyone knows. Yes. It's going to air after the draft. So we're gonna see how prophetic you are. We're gonna make you make you um give us your draft predictions and we'll we'll when this thing airs we'll see how how good you are Max yeah because that's obviously what you're doing now you're part of the media with us. Yeah with us. This is all media stuff I I feel we shouldn't be mentioned in the same vein as my Max. Oh yeah, he's actual media. We're just we're two sh we're two schlubs in the basement. Yeah, you just got a couple rings. Hey l listen, you have a way better studio setup than anyone I've ever been. like this big thing. This is just Spence and cameras. Yeah. And boards and computers and stuff over here. But yeah, people always ask like, hey so so what's the setup like? I'm like, well Ben says stuff and I record it. I'm like and that's basically what the show is. And we and we put up these camera thingies that they actually don't come down very often. Like hey Spence, take the cameras down with people coming over. Yeah. The only time I have I to take this down two times a year. New Year's when you have people over for New Year's and then like a Christmas usually like a Christmas dinner when family's over. But people don't realize they used to think this was a green screen. They're like, oh and I'm like guys, that's you are overestimating the amount of effort we put into getting I'm not using a green screen. This just stays up in Ben's house. And so for the fans. This is this is football, and as you guys know, we like to start an episode with a beer. So we are drinking our beers, but we're going to sample a beer and this I'm so excited to see the Snifter in Max's hand. Uh because Max will be the have the largest hands of anybody. Well, Mel Blunt was on here. Mel's got monster hands too. But this is gonna be great. So we're gonna always start it with a beer. Spence is gonna give it to us. Yes. And I'm I'm kind of excited as we drink this spent because this is back-to-back guests of the 2004 NFL Draft class. Well you only surround yourself with champions. Yeah, champions. That's what we do. That's what we're special. I know the I know a lot of stealer places But 2004 is pretty special to us. It is. We should do a comparison of that. Hey, put put that on him real quick. Show us the This this actually that's a full size uh mug guys. Exactly. That's sixty-four ounces for those of you want to spend what you have to Yes, this is the perpetual IPA from Trogues. All of them are from Trogues. That's one of our favorite breweries on this show. the perpetual IPA, I think it's a it's one of their mainstays. It's a great one. It's seven and a half percent. Um Are you an IPA guy? I know you have Delphins, but yeah, this is this is yeah, super up. So I am a um what is it? What's uh arrogant bastard? Oh um out there out of stone, out of San Diego. Stone's great. Yeah, they're they're they're their beer garden. I was gonna say dope. Call yourself bad ass. You're not an arrogant bastard. And then my favorite's the double bastard, so it makes it even better. It's like Game of Thrones. So you like the heavy ones. Yeah. Oh, that's a nice light IPA. Oh yeah. That's not hoppy. That's not that hoppy. That's good. Yeah, this is a slight one. I've definitely had that before. Heavy. Yeah. Yeah. Like I just like this. This is a I like this one. Not crazy. Uh I like IPAs. It's not crazy hoppy. It's uh it's still seven and a half though, so you gotta be Yeah, know your limits. Yes, yeah. Yeah, drink responsible in the basement like us. I like that. Oh yeah. So we got the little guys. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Oh man. Well, there's that for you boys. Well, thanks, buddy. Appreciate that. So, Max, I think since you're here and we talk about the draft, the draft is coming up, so we'll get to that at some point but 2024 I mean at 20 2004 excuse me 2004 it was so long ago um was a pretty special draft class in Pittsburgh we uh un well actually undrafted Willie Parker. Yeah. Undrafted and you know, we had a great conversation with him. If you guys haven't seen the episode, go check it out. Oh, that was a great episode. Um fun talking to Willie and getting those stories. But uh you were the third round, I believe. Yeah, I was the third round. Ricardo was second. Yeah, Coch Tusculum. Tusculum College. Where I don't even know that is. I think where somewhere in Tennessee. Okay, there you go. That's close. Only reason why I know, because my dad lived lived in Nashville. So only reason why I know that's cool. There you go. Well that was a what what do you what do you remember of uh that long ago? Were you excited to come to Pittsburgh? I don't I like I I was thinking about like my dr people always ask me like what I was like, I I I I just I was ready to go anywhere. Yeah, I mean I mean that's the serious and I did not have Pittsburgh on my radar. Me either. Because like literally I talked to them at the senior bowl, you know, doing the car wash of interviews. And then I Bill Cower came to my pro day for the weigh-in and that was it. Just want to see how you were doing. Yeah, exactly. I stood on like this old school like weight scale, looked out to the crowd. Yeah, it's like yeah, it's like what old school you call a physical no digital. We're we're an analog era. Okay, we're sorry. So and and I just remember seeing him do like this. Like he was happy with it. And that was it. He like disappeared. That was the first thing we did. We didn't of the you know how you do the stretching drills and all the other flexibility stuff. Like did he did he leave or he just didn't watch you anymore? He was gone. So who else didn't who would have been like like who were the big name guys in your class? Who are your correct? Were you were you like Chris? Rex Grossman? Well, Rex left the US. Rex was gone. So Rex was gone. We had Chris Leek was a freshman. Okay, so he was. So we had um Ben Troop was our tight end. Yeah. Gus Scott was a safety. Keywon Ratliff was a DB. Yeah, yeah. Um uh Shannon Snell was our guard and Ran Carthon, former GM, right? Yeah. Ran was our running back that year. Okay. And so we had some But it wasn't like it wasn't like a quarterback. Like you're looking for a number one quarterback. Okay. So I was gonna say, did he just he was like he just came just to check your weight and then he's out and I'm not watching anybody else. Yeah, exactly. And it was like that's so not on your radar, he comes, watches that, and you're still just like, yeah, whatever. Whatever. I'm like, yeah, because he because the only news was he was the only head coach that was there. Everybody else was a coordinator or a position coach. Okay, so he was the only head coach there. So that's why, oh man, dude, y'all see Bill Cower out there. And so, but Fish stayed around. Kelvin Fisher, one of our scouts still for the team after all these years. Fish was still there. And funny enough, Larry Zerline was the O-line coach for Cleveland and he was leading our drills. No way. Yeah, O Z. O Z O Z. Who ended up for those you don't know, came to Pittsburgh and coached O-line in Pittsburgh for a few years. Yep. Our 43 team. He was our he was our O-line coach. That's crazy. So it was just funny. But yeah, I mean, that was so by the time we got to the job, I thought it was gonna be a Philadelphia Eagle. Really? Because Philly had me do two private workouts. They then had me do uh uh I flew up to Philly for one of the visits and Juan Castillo, their offensive line coach, called me all the time, like checking in, hey, what are you doing? This, that, and the other. Yeah. So I'm thinking in my head, I am a I'm a Philadelphia Eagle. Right. Like, give me, give me chickies and pizza, give me Philly cheesakes. We're good. Right. You know, just set it and forget it. Right. And then yeah, we get to draft day and watching the draft, right? The whole debacle at the beginning with Philip and Eli. And then you go at eleven. And I remember Robert Gallery was the first tackle taken. Number two. And and we get there, Vernon went ten. I think Vernon went right before you to Miami, right? At ten. And then now the Eagles are sitting there like 20. I'm like, oh, I gotta be going there. Then they trade up to 16 and draft Sean Andrews. No way. A tackle from Arkansas that ends up being a guard. No, Alabama, right? Arkansas. Arkansas. Because he's the one that that people talked about Bill Cowernem wanted here for me. Like you said, like him and Kevin Colbert. So the the the story is, right? The rumor is, and it from Dan Rooney himself. Yeah. Pretty good, pretty good story. Rumor, but truth was that Cow and Colbert wanted Andrews. Oh and then that Dan came in and said, uh-uh, I want Ben. Like I I according to them, it's like I I missed on we missed on Merino, but I missed another one. We're taking Ben. So that that's so that's but but that's why that name that's what rang a bell when you said that name. He only played a couple years in the league. Yeah. So he he didn't fit 'cause the biggest thing, I trained with him, right? Okay. Uh all of our combine training was together. So it was him and Bo Lacey. Bo Lacey was his right tackle. He was a left tackle. No way. So Bo in our class, part of the three-six mafia. There you go. Um in that draft was um and he just he had an eating disorder, right? Like he could not like we would go do cardio literally for like 45 minutes on the stairmaster. Yeah. And then and then I kind of stayed near where he was, so I'd drop him off and oh Max man pulled by the Popeyes like like Sean we just did 45 minutes of car like I was kind of that's kind of how I feel yeah was he Polynesian yeah exactly. So so it was like so it was crazy. So but that was the last tackle technically drafted. Um and he was still a guard. I still counted him as a guard, but we only had two tackles drafted in the first round, which is which is crazy to think right now. Crazy. Because you you'd have two in the top ten easily now. And I was a fourth tackle taken that year. Because the only other guy the third round. And the third round 75 picks left. Because Jacob Rogers was the only other one tack le from USC. He went to Dallas at the end of the second. Well and he just he never played 'cause he couldn't medical. I feel like sometimes too though, like when when guys start going off the board it's like okay, we gotta start taking you know, like it's like okay, one goes in the first five then like they start going off the board quick because everyone's like we got to take them run yeah and when it doesn't happen it's like okay we can kind of sit on this for a little while yeah um so that had to be a big like kind of shocker for you right,? Like thinking you might go 20 or 16 to Philly. All of a sudden we're in like the seven third round, seventy-fifth pick, and you get a call. And the funny thing was after after Philly didn't select, I was like, oh, well, maybe the Giants, and they took SNE at the top of the second round. I'm like, I don't know who is gonna be. So I'm sitting there throughout the second round. And the good thing is I could say this, Ben, you and I were drafted day one draft picks. Back then the first to third round was in was the same day. That's right. But I remember we got to the end of the second. I was just like, you know what? F it. I I'm like, we're done. Cause I was I was sitting at my best friend uh Josh Castor's house and it was me , Josh, and both my both my older and younger brother. And I was just like, you know what, guys, man, whatever. I'm like, we're just gonna leave. We all like y'all were like like tuned into the screen like we're watching. And like I'm walking back and forth, pacing. I was trying to play like, you know, any young bachelor pad, just Josh's house. There's a pool table as a dining room. Just something though. Just right there. Yeah. So we're playing pool. I'm trying to take my mind off it. I'm like, you know what? Let's just go to the bar. And so we're like, so we turn the TV off and we're walking out the door. And on my little sprint phone, the one that had the little antenna you pulled out, the silver one, I see it and call our idea is a new thing. I'm like, 412 area. What is this? Look at that. So Josh is from Pittsburgh, right? No. Josh is like, dude, that's Pittsburgh. Pick it up. Pick it up. Pick it up. And so I pick it up. I'm standing in the doorway about to go tie one off. I wish you would have been on the bar. That would have so much better than the bar. That would have been great. Oh. Who does? Hey. Whatever. No, talk louder. And and uh and it was Omar. Con mar was like the con man. Yeah. The con artist, right? Yeah, right. They were like, they were like, hold on, coach , Coach Sky's making a decision. I'm like, but you called me. What are you doing? Yeah, hold on. So Josh runs back in the house, he turns the TV on, and I'm just standing in the doorway like waiting, like I'm like I'm a kid in time out. Yeah. And then he's like, and then Coach Cower gets on and he's like, hey, hey Max. I was like, hey Coach Cower. He's like, I got one question for you. I was like, okay. What do you think about playing in snow? I was like, is there a football out there? Yeah, are we just we just play it? We just played it. Am I doing it? Snowman, what are we doing? Am I you know I am I am I Anna and Elsa? Like, do you want to know the snowman? You know, what is it? Yeah, there's a ball. I was like, I'm ready to play. He's like, good, because we drafted you. He's like, congratulations, you're a Pittsburgh Steel. I was like, okay, then Josh came running out. And then we walked in, and it was a dude. He had to be through the roof. Oh, he was so he's like, Man, you're going to my hometown where I was born and my brothers were excited so then we still went to that bar right afterwards. Hey man mind you we will not gonna miss an opportunity to party we go in the bar and the draft is still going on. It's the end of the is going to the end of the third round. And we're sitting at the bar, and and the bartender comes up, he looks at me, looks at the screen, looks at me. I'm like, bro, I just I just wanted a long island iced tea. Yeah. He's like, he's like, but you. I'm like, who's who's who's weren't you just drafted by Pittsburgh? I was like, yeah . What are you doing here? I said, I live here. Yeah, I was. Literally live five minutes away. He's like, he's like, take a lap around the bar and then come back and talk to me. So I walk around the bar and I'm like, man, what the hell is he talking? And I started looking, I was like, oh, Pittsburgh Steeler, pennant. Oh, really? Lynn Swan jersey. Franco here. Steal the Bu.ff He's like, this is a stealer. You don't have to pay for anything if you're about to be a stealer. There it was. So that night we had a really good time. That's awesome. Wow. What a yeah. It's a movie. Yeah. It's just a movie, man. Yeah. That's unbelievable. And then my first trip here, I'm I'm riding in a car with you as we go to Stan Savrin show. Jeez. That week that week later when we came back from minicamp. Yeah. Yeah, we got picked up at the airport together. The baggage came Yeah, Phil Crydler picked us up with that little car we sat in the back. You know the steelers, everyone else riding limos and stuff. We're in the back . He's got a camera, baby. Oh my goodness. What that was that was a long time ago, Max. Yeah. It was um it's funny because I was telling Spence a little bit too, and I know I'm not trying to fast forward too far, but I felt like just because that that story feels so like right. And I was thinking back on all your years of playing here, and it felt like at a certain point, because we're actually we're just talking about Trey Essex a little bit ago, uh, who's in to wn for the draft stuff. I felt like you two were very similar in this, and even Ramon too. Yeah. I felt like at some point in your career the Steelers did everything they could to like get rid of you guys, but then realized we need you. Yeah. And so like I I know that like I don't know like why that just came to my mind, but it's like because of that, that's a great story. And we were here and we we, you know, you won two Super Bowls when we we're gonna get right back into Super Bowl 40. But the fact of the matter is just like , yeah, they kept like, you know what? We can we can always do something better. But no, you really couldn't. You know, there's no real y'all really couldn't. You didn't realize that. But but anyway, uh, I I do want to to get into that Super Bowl run . Because obviously our um you would have come you came in and uh if I remember Marvel Smith was our left tackle. Yep um was not Barrett Brooks Barrett Brooks Kendall. Kendall's the right tackle it was right guard right guard Oliver Ross was our rookie year yes and then remember because we went 15 and 1 he signed that big deal with Arizona yes and left in front of yes yes yes and then that's when that that opened the door for you for me and Trey to and they drafted Trey, and then we competed for the right tackle job. Correct. Yes. So yeah, I knew it was Ken, obviously Allen and Jeff and um and Kendall. But you know, coming in. I do the first year because Kendall Kendall uh was out because of his diagnosis. Yes, that's right. That's right. Uh that was and I I keep telling people all the time that man, I got so lucky to come to a team that was full of veteran players. Like that line, like that's a that was a good veteran group, you know, and and and and Bettis and Ward and Burris and L and I was I was telling I was telling Spence speaking to Antoine Randall I'll never forget the time that he he was getting ready to go out to practice. He had his cleats on and he was all ready to go to practice and he grabbed your cleat and put his foot with a cleat on the whole thing into Max's shoe and started walking around the locker room. No, he ran out to the field. It was um so I had no shoes. And we gotta be on the field. I'm like, and Elle's just running around like a kid with snowshoes on for the first time. And I'm and also full. I wanna he ruined my insoles that I had, my custom insol es that I had made. Because he had spikes in there. You owe us some insoles. Spikes in there. When he said I'm like, oh so yes, but yeah now that's the shoes, Maxi shoes, they hung over the equipment room door for uh forever. They might still be there. These two gigantic shoes just hanging there over the door. They look like moon boots. It was unbelievable. What size? What size shoes? So those ones were 19s that they made. They were the field turf editions, and they look like straight moon boosts 'cause they were all white white. Who who makes that? General Motors? The the the the biggest, but but yeah, and Antoine made me think of that. But coming into that that team was we were very lucky to play very blessed to have a good group. But yeah, and then obviously our first year and and all the stuff that happened there was a kind of a whirlwind. But then get into our second year, especially just sitting here talking to Willie about some of the stuff. Take me through what you remember. It's more, I guess, like towards the end of the year, right? Like we had to go on this run and we had to do this and I mean, before not necessarily in the postseason, but just what you remember because we we actually had a great conversation with Willie. It was fun to talk to Willie Parker about Jerome Bettis. Obviously being in that room as a rookie. Yeah. He was telling stories about how Jerome had the sleeping bag in the back of the the the the running back room and we had I was like, really? He just laid down in the back of the room and like every once in a while he'd pop his head up and tell say something and go and Coach Hulk would be like, Well, you'll get cut. You don't need to worry about while he's going back there. Something that was just it was hilarious. But strong bads man, but we had talked about like just like how good Jerome was, right? At being a big back with power, but having the quickness of the nimbleness. The nimbleness was was crazy, which you wouldn't think of a big guy. And it led us down a little bit of a of a path of remembering the play at home in the snow with Erlocker when he meets him in the hole at the goal line. Yes. And it's like this it's everything that you want Pittsburgh to be, that you want Jerome Bettis to be, that you want Brian Erlacher. I mean, he's a Hall of Fame superstar. Yeah. And just that whole thing. And that was obviously one of the games we had to make this little run. So like, like, take me through anything that you want of that before before postseason. Like we'll get to get to the postseason. But but you what do you remember that played? I mean, just all that stuff. Well, that was over my side. That was right. That was counter 32-0. Yeah. Um, and I just remember because Alan, Alan kind of almost tripped over my heel because we went to try. Yeah, exactly. The moon move. And snow, my shoes white. You can't see it. You can't see it. Blends in. Um, but I just remember like that play, we had a deuce block, me and Kendall deuced down and and I felt Alan kind of come off the edge and kind of felt like a little bit of my heel get clipped. And all I know is I'm on the ground, I look up and I'm watching the play from like a camera angles, like here, and just seeing him just absolutely truck stick burlacquer. And I was like, ooh , like I'm not actually in the game helping. Um, and it was just an amazing play, but but I'll tell you before that, I don't know if you remember, earlier in the first half, we ran we ran counter counter 39. Okay. And he bounced it to the outside. Oh, 39 boss. And he got to the sidelines. He hit one dude, tiptoed down the sideline, came back to balance, and then finished it off. It was like a maybe a 14-yard run. But watching him hit a dude ke,ep the con tact balance and straddle the line and come in. And it was just like, Are you kidding me? Yeah. Like that was but that, but that was JB. That's who Jerome was. And you know, just in that game, you know, we, you know, that was the must-win, right? Because we had we had we had the meeting the night before and we had the conversation. Right. And it was like, what are we going to be as a unit, right? What are we going to be as a team? What are they going to say about the 2005 Pittsburgh Steelers te am. And it just felt right. And when that snow came in, that was the first game I ever played in snow, by the way. Never played in snow. This is just a year and a half, but I finally got to that snow. Um, and it was just like it was like one of those NFL films, rites of odds. It was the perfect snow because it wasn't like that blistering, like, oh, like the pictures, it's the flakes coming down. It's like it's just yeah straight down. Perfect. Yes. Yeah. And if and it's like catching that perfect angle is like this is what you think northern football should be, right? And I mean, and I even though I did the snow globe game against the Browns a couple of years ago, that was ridiculous snow.. Yeah Like that was not that was blowing, can't see. It's different. You can't see it's it's swirling. But this was like perfect, big chunks falling. And that's actually funny enough, the first game where I met my now wife Tiff Tiffany came to that game. No way. I'd never met her before. Family friends. You came to see you. She she can't she didn't know I was on the field for like three quarters. Because you were laying on the ground. Yeah. I I was it I had my I had my moon boots. They they were camouflaged because she knew nothing about football. But that was actually funny. So it's a significant moment where I remember that game even more so because that's the first time I met her. Wow. Was at that Chicago game. But I just I remembered that one. And then I remember as we kind of went through and then we got to that Detroit game at the end of the year. Mm. That was the last game of the season and that was Jerome's last home game. Okay. So it was like it was like almost one of those like precursor moments where you're like, we're playing Detroit for for a chance to go into the playoffs to go to Detroit. Yeah. And it's Jerome's last home game. And then of course, fast forward, it becomes his last game. Right. So it was like, it was like all those like we got we can't lose this game. Again, and I remember you remember Sean Rogers, Big Baby? Yeah. So Sean was still playing for Detroit then, right? Never forget. We're halfway through the second quarter . And Sean is looking at me because we have been we have been running 32 uh double at him all day. And he just got pissed. Because you know when when Wiz and and um and Russ got together. The'yre like, well, until they stop it, right? The six minute offense, right? And we run and Sean just looks at me. He's like, listen, bro, if you hit me one more time in my hip , he's like, I'm I'm gonna lose my religion out here. He's like, I'm not playing for anything, Max. Yeah, he called me by my first name. He's like, not playing for anything. I was like, we get it. Y'all wanna win. You're gonna win this game. Stop hitting my hip. I just want to go fishing and Texas. I was like, what? Hey, you know, as a young guy, this is my second year of the league, right? First year start. I'm like, dude, I'm attacking a Pro Bowl-level guy. I'm gonna so I kept hit his he was pissed and then Hamp came over and talked to me because Chambo was complaining to him because they played in Texas. Oh my God. But I remember that moment like for that last game to get in. Yeah. Like just that's kind of how significant that was, but also how funny that was in that last game. That's so funny. You know, we're talking about like I was thinking about that because like Willie obviously Parker was a different back than Jerome. Yeah. Right? Willie fast getting in front of people and this, that, and the other. When we wanted there and slowed down a little bit. But it was funny because he was talking as we were moving into the postseason, like just about you know the craziness of what we had to do like the first six seed to go and going to Cincy yeah which Cincy was kind of just crazy like I just remember the Carson Palmer thing I feel like that's what that game was. Yeah that was this that was the highlight it was back and forth, but cause we had had some good matchups during the season. Like I remember Rudy Johnson was just running roughshod in that game, RIP to Rudy Johnson. But I just remember how back and forth that game was. Said had had like three touchdowns in that game or something like that. Was that a game uh Antoine threw a touchdown pass? Or Cedric threw touchdown someone threw a like a reverse pass? Um Cedric threw it to Sedan threw it to Antoine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you're right. Yeah. So it was literally the same play we ran in the Super Bowl, yeah, just a little different people. Yeah. Um and so I just remember how tough that battle was and like you said, but the thing was once Carson went down, once chemo you know fell into it and that kind of took over. Oh so it's like everything else is a blur. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Because it was just like that was it. Yeah. Like was what Kitten that came in. Florida guy, right? Kit is a Florida guy, isn't it? Yeah. I thought John Kit Florida or someone with the Florida Kitten is a Florida guy, I'm telling you. He's a Florida guy from the state. Didn't go to Florida? No. I wonder if he went to FSU. No, he didn't UF. Okay. We had Doug Johnson back then. We had um Jesse Palmer. All those guys. Okay. Yeah, I don't remember John Kittner being on the list. Okay, I could be wrong. I probably am wrong. Um, but yeah, that game kind of was a what was a whatever. But the next game was yeah, the next game, there's some there's a little bit of memories going on with that one. Oh my god. Well you know, , I remember one of the things that that I tell people about that game, which was I thought was special, was that we came out throwing the ball. Deep Miller, right? Touch . We were we threw the ball. And now I think it caught him off guard because like you said, we're we're Jerome, we're Willie, we're running, we're gonna do this and two tights, 12 personnel. It was like Heath Miller rookie season, Lapoco, post-corn . He's we had that little quick skinny post and we went down the field early on him. And I think like back to back C uh series and score, but we did mostly throwing. Yeah. And obviously that was something I remember as a quarterback, but but everyone else is gonna remember the end of the game. Uh I thought it was unique. You know what I guess I should let's start with this. What do you remember about the fumble? Like what like do you that was the second fumble? Okay. Because Jerome had fumbled earlier in the game. I don't remember that. So yeah, it you know why? Because I jumped on top of it, so we didn't lose possession. Okay. But it fell in the end zone. So I thought I scored my first touchdown. You got a five. Did you get up and celebrate? Oh, I got to celebrate. Yeah, it was. Yeah, it's in the playoffs. Against the Colts . And then Rand's like, get back in the huddle. It just changes. We just keep possession. It goes from the f spot of the fumble. You can't advance the fumble into the end zone. Oh my goodness. I was like , man, I was so hot. I was so mad. I was like, they stole my touchdown. He jumped in the stands. He can't breathe. Oh, yeah. I was I was about to walk the dog. He fumbled twice in the fumble. So he fumbled the first never fumbles. Yeah, never fumbles. And so when it came to that one, once again, running counter 32-0, right, to the right side. And and I just remember I didn't hear booze or silence, right? Because we're we're in Indianapolis. And you remember the first time. Couldn't he deafening? They cheated so bad. They cheated so bad. They pumped in more crowd noise. Oh my god. They you know that's good. I'm glad you're because I'm having alignment, especially if I'm on on the the because you're so is Max as the as a tackle, he's going to be one of the furthest people from me at some times in the huddle. If it depends on what sideline we're on. And I remember, I will never forget, and I tell people all the time, I have never experienced anything so loud in my life. Never being in the huddle, being on the bench trying to talk to someone couldn't hear and screaming as loud as I can to just communicate. And I'm like, this is not normal. And I I knew they were cheating and I knew they pumped in the noise when we played in the postseason and it wasn't as loud. Exactly. How is it not as loud in a postseason game as it was during the you you could hear individual fans in the huddle when we got in that playoff game. And I'm like, bro, this is crazy. And so Kendall and I kept looking at each other like, are you serious? Are you serious? And so I'll never forget. So in that first game, and Trey was starting at left tackle at this game because Marvell was injured. Oh, so Trey and Trey's going against Freeney. Yeah. There we go. And Trey is just uh welcome to the NFL, rookie. Like I just give it up. And I just remember we go to the sidelines and we're trying to talk. He's just he's spinning everywhere yeah he's like a top he's a yeah exactly we I mean we called him Tasmanian devil yeah because he was just and then Mathis wasn't that much different just Mathis was taller so it's easier to get a handle on it. And those two edge rushers. Those two dudes. It's like what we had. Well, I'd say it's different because we had Harrison and Woodley and Porter and Clark. I mean, you had some good back, but but not like those guys. Those were they were different. They were different rushers. They were they were all speed too. True. And it was, and I just remember I tried to call a fan out to Kendall. And I'm literally as close as you are, screaming at the top of my lungs, and he is just looking at me. He can't hear a word. And so and Trey is Trey's trying to describe this, but you see the motions, right? Because it's so loud on the sidelines too. And I'm sitting there, I'm like, I don't know. That's what that's what it looked like. It was like you just just and so and then he just goes like this, it goes assist down. man, that's right. It was so loud. But it yeah, but it was so different there. Like you said, getting back to that play, I was listening for the that negative point because we had scored. I didn't hear it. I heard a huge cheer. And I'm like, what? And then next thing I know, I see Nick Harper taking off. And then Kendall gets up and Kendall. Kindle was digging. Kind Kendall was digging. He was on the highaboo. So he was he was there. And then you were there and you were like, uh, uh, uh, and then boom, got him on the tackle. But I was like, oh my god. I was like, if you didn't make that play for how tight that game was, we would have had to go down and and oh it would have been so loud and they probably would have probably snuck in the crowd noise for sure they would have found a way to pump that in yeah that's it it is crazy because well and then i i forgot for some reason that Vander , I mean I knew Vanderjack missed it, but like that was just a tie. Like the the kid was the tie and we had to go like you know play it play extras. But the fact that he missed it and and Willie mentioned something when he when he was talking about that that feeling of of after that game or or when that happened I think he said when it when the fumble happened he said man we were on the sideline and we were like kind of devastated but we were all but it was more like all right let's go like we we're gonna we we believe in our defense the defense is gonna get this done. Like we yeah, it felt like and and I'm gonna I'll bring it back around to this because I thought it was interesting how he made this and made this this point, this analogy, and I didn't think about it really until he said it. And I'm like, man, I think you're right. After we won the Super Bowl , it was like , oh, oh, like, what that's it? Like we're like that what what's next? Like, what's next almost? Like kind of like this. But after we won an indie, it felt like maybe it's because we just kept going, we were gonna keep going. I don't know, but it felt more like a bigger win in indie than it did in in Detroit almost. That feels weird, but uh he said that I'm like, Man, I yeah, I think you're kind of right there. Yeah, because even when we won in Denver and they remember they brought the AFC championship trophy into the locker room. Yeah. It was like, eh. Yeah, I know. Did you see what we did last week? I know. It felt so much different. And I think because I think also because it was Peyton, right? And Peyton was that face. And they were, remember, they were supposed to be the crown princes. Yeah. Right? They were the one seed. They had the bye. This team was 14-2. They couldn't be stopped. Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison, Edger and J ames. And we went in there and we absolutely took it to him. Cause they took it to us the first time. And to get that kind of vindication and that revenge, there was so much more emotion in it. Whereas Denver I was like ah Jake Plummer Jake Plummer I did Jake Plummer I know I was like and um and it was uh and Lynch was older yeah played safety for so there wasn't as much bravado like there wasn't that marquee matchup right right. Yeah. Like you versus Peyton was a huge matchup. You versus Carson was it, but like you said, Carson gets injured. That's the story. And that's the story of that one. And then we get to Denver, and it's like, ah, but yeah, you're right. No, I did the ACF Championship game in Denver felt anticlimactic. Yeah. Because that you know that you because of how big the indie game was and and getting that win. Which obviously we you know, feeling it for Jerome and getting him back to to to Detroit and I and we were talking to Willie about that like just how special that week was for like Jerome, his family going to his his house for dinner and all the stuff that went along with it. Um do you remember I remember someone told me at one point when you get to the Detroit, like when the balls kicked off, like take a mental picture. And I remember I could still see it. I mean it's crazy all the flash bulbs and everything. Back when there were still flashbulbs. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. We're analog air. We're analog air. Um I I I I I would definitely want to talk about the touchdown, Willie's touchdown run because of how special that was. Yeah. And I'll I'll get is there anything that like leading up to that? Like that that I mean, I remember Jerome running out by himself like all that was just really cool. I was wearing his jersey. Yeah when we got off the plane. Because you remember my cousin made all those jerseys. No way really he made all those green number six jerseys . So and it was like I was like, you gotta rush it here, you gotta get it here, because it was right after the Denver game. I was like, dude, you got a week to get all these jerseys, mate. Let's go. And and you know, and and that's obviously back in the era where we were all baggy everything. So these things bagger the better. Like I pulled it out. I was like, dude, this is a sheet now. Like my children can literally go to bed in this. It was so humongous. But it's like, but like you said, getting to do that for Jerome and getting off that plane, everybody had handicamed yes. I still have a photo of what we got on the plane, and you had your handicam, because obviously, so uh another peek behind on the flight. Mr. Benjamin Rothesberger here sat in front of me on the plane. Literally the seat in front of me. And Ben would test out the chair every time when I was seated, and he would rock his seat back into it. And look back like, yep, yep, this is about right. Keep me on your toes, brother. And then when I got the opportunity, because all the veterans back then sat in first class, the moment I got my one shot to move to first class, who was the guy that said, nope, can't go. I was like, what do you mean I can't go? It's like, no, you're not messing up our ritual and our routine. You're gonna sit back here behind me, and that is it. You have an open seat next to you, spread wide. You're not going to first class in superstition, tradition takes over everything. What are we talking about here? So for nine years, I rode behind this guy for every home game. Mind you, we also shared a locker next to each other. We spent a lot of time. Uh we spent an ordinate amount of time together. I used to mess with Max. So the locker would have like these little like the the petitions, you know? Yeah. Max his shoe if this is that petition right here, his shoe touchdown be like Max, we're gonna slide this shoe. I would just slide nudge it over say see because he's like there's no petitioner i'm like no that's an invisible petition the the petition extended it goes all the way to the other side and perpetuity mind you he had the clubhouse though he had he had the corner suite and then he also had the the corner inside of the corner suite. No, you can't throw build up the Seagull Clubhouse in that . Well you're retired from the media. Statute of limitation. I hate it from the media. Listen, you had a chair and everything in there. You could see you could see out the crack and people be like, they'd be the meaty'd be waiting they're like man ben's not he where is he and I'd be sitting there looking at him like oh there's no man here don't know him the guy the guys would know and they'd start laughing I had a fridge and there everything was crazy it was awesome okay back to simple I want to ask about the touch Willie's touchdown run because he brought some great insight to me that I don't remember is he said that they called it was like he thought it was thirty, thirty eight power, thirty eight counter oh yeah some so he thought it was gonna be counter thirty six power. Okay. And it'd be in counter thirty four pike because we were in eleven personnel. Okay, there you go. And he said that that you guys we ran it in the first half and he bounced it outside. Yeah. No good. And then he told a pretty cool story about a halftime going in and Allen and and is it just Alan or the coaches were like hey listen this is this is gonna be it's gonna hit we're gonna run it again yeah and it's gonna be and it's gonna be successful and then obviously I'd forgot too that it was so early in the second half. He thought it was like the first like second play or something. It was early. Yeah, it was early. Yeah, we were early in that drive. Yeah. So do you remember like that like first half of him bouncing it? Yeah, and pissed as always because every time we would set up the perfect counter or double and Willie being fast Willie Parker, right? FWP would bounce everything and would not allow us to develop the blocks. I was like, Willie, stay tight. Like you, you just you get frustrated because you're like, if you hit this on the line where you're supposed to hit it, this play is gonna bust for 20, 30 yards. Now, did I know it was gonna be 75 yards? Absolutely not. But I remember like it was like, hey, Willie, keep it in line. Like you have a good offensive line, like let them do their job. You kind of blow everything away because then you get fast flow backers over the top, and and they're not staying so that we can work the double team up to the second level. And so because he held that, I just watched when we motioned Heinz in motion. I saw, I saw Bulware, Michael Bullware, who I played against in college from from FSU, the safety from FSU. He over, he remember he over-rot ated and he went to the opposite hash . And I was like, oh my God, I just got tatupu left. Lo foot tatupu And when the place snapped, I just remember knocking the defensive tackle right in his hip, knocking him down. Kendall ends up pancaking him. And then I work up to Lofa, and Lofa's still standing there. So I kind of grab him and then as he goes, I kind of wheel to my right. And the next thing you know, I just feel that whoosh behind me and then I and then I look as that I was like there is nobody nobody there it was ridiculous yeah but it was a perfectly designed play well that's why meant because cause obviously Alan got in there and we asked Willie, I'm like, when did you know? Like like Yeah, what when did you know? He said, once I got through, he goes the safety, he goes, I was told to work the safety like I was going to sideline and then put my foot in the ground to get north. Yeah. He goes, once I got past that safety and linebacker, he goes, it was over. He goes, I yeah, I saw the safety back there. That safety wasn't. I said, Willie, he had an angle. He goes, he didn't have an angle like game. No, no. But even if he was, like that's Willie was stupid . So straight line speed. Oh. And so like it was it was just cool to hear like, you know, to see that because you actually worked up to the set you know like you said second level and you were up there. I wheeled off Tatu pu at linebacker. I was playing the bike. And I knew because I saw where Bulware was and I was like, if I seal Tatu pu, like who else is there? And then I looked and I'm like, oh, he gone. He's gone. And he did exactly that. Yes. I think it's so funny to see how frustrated you get when Willie go runs outside. Like I so how many 32 doubles he ruined? 32 double was supposed to be in tight, like right Okay, so I've asked a couple uh O-line guys this question. I'm always curious because you did you you didn't have to block the most um stationary quarterback. Yeah, you were blocking for somebody who um size the thing. The most viral thing I remember was after I left, and this was like sixteen or sevente whenen they brought in the buddy tevens like remote control um dummies. Oh gosh, I forgot about those things. Where they they bring those and you were like, all right, Ben, we're gonna work with these. And you just started this like bowling over each of them as opposed to just moving out of the way. I was like, that that's what I had to deal with for nine years. So when Ben when Ben would extend plays and get out of the pocket, like what was it like for you guys? Was that something that's like okay, keep the play alive or was it was it the frustration you're talking about with Willie? No, I mean like when you're in the moment, it was it was yeah, it was a mix of both. Because here's the thing. So early in my early in my career, right, you know, we because remember we would reset the hots and everything, and you'd be like, What? I was waiting for that safety to come through. Like, we'd have these conversations. So that's at my right tackle days. So at that side, Ben can see everything, right? But when I moved to left tackle, the thing that kept getting me was when he would drift and move, he would get like right behind me. Yeah, yeah, he'll give you one of these, like scoot out the way I'm like, you're in my space. You know, it's like you have to office man. And so and but But I always knew because the defensive ends would stop rushing and would start doing this, reaching over my shoulder, trying to get at him. And he would just be back there. I'm like, why are you behind me? He's like, he's like, well, the wall's better. Yeah, it's good. You know how hard it is for someone to go through if my hands on Max's back like this to get through Max to get to me, we got a lot of we got a good chance. Yeah. But it it had to be, I mean, to I'll piggyback that. I I was a little bit, I was all over the place at times. I understand that, especially early on. It had to be unusual because like a running back that you Jerome Bettis, he's gonna hit that hole. He's gonna be patient. Yeah. Willie Parker, you know, you think about Le'Veon Bell, you think about some of these guys that are like to uh yeah you know, Le on was definitely patient, but they would bounce that and that thirty that thirty-two double, like you know me holding how many times oh line me at call for holding because they're expecting it to come if I'm outside it's coming here and I'm blocking like this and all of a sudden the ball bounce out here and I'm like, oh wait, why is it why is my guy going this way? And and you're like trying to drive with right and so now colors getting exposed. So you're getting this. Yeah. And it's easy and you're ump at that time can see that your referee. Yeah. They can see it. So we got so many holding cards. So that's an interesting thing. I'm I'm don't know if you can tell by my size, never played the position. Um what how how many times you are you seeing like those holding calls being the the runner's fault? Like now when you're calling the games. I would say there's a good forty, forty-five percent of them probably are just under half. Yeah. Yeah, could be avoided if they stay tight. Because once again, our job, and this is why I always tell people , I said, the difference between a clutch and a hold is a flag. So when you're in tight and everything's coming right there in a big mass of humanity. It's clutching when you're inside here. Yeah. It's a hold when it's outside the framework, or you have a hand on the shoulder because your back is not following, or else I would have taken different footwork. Sure. I would have taken a wider angle to cut the guy off if you were gonna bounce to the outside. Right. I'm expecting you here, so I need to be more middle. And so I can even play the guy a little bit outside because I can turn him at the last second. But when you bounce six, seven, eight yards wide, how do you know what's going on? Which is exactly where a quarterback like me when I was doing that stuff was really hard because as a tackle, whether it's whatever side you're on, you're expecting if you're on the right side of the quarterback to be sitting on like the pocket is created where you're gonna be, you know, for black of left cheek somewhere as you're setting a pocket wide. And all of a sudden, if I'm if if if and I'm not speaking for you but I just know because I I did a lot is if Max is the right tackle yeah if he's sitting like right like this and all of a sudden I decide to get out of the pocket and he's blocking his guy like this, and all of a sudden his guy starts running away. Same thing as if his guy's going after he's naturally holding on, kind of, because he's like blocking. He's like, well, and that's when the penalties happen. And that's a quarterback's fault too. Because there's so many times. But I think at some point I assume that you know you guys, all you guys, I mean all the linemen I play with, you start learning. Like, cause I remember early on, like Alan and Jeff and Marvell, though, Ken, those guys hated me. Oh I mean, hated me. It was like because could you go with Tommy Maddox too? Who said now they go from Cordell who was probably all over the place to Tommy for two years who's just a he's Tommy's a true pocket he could throw that ball all over the place it was like to then me who like was like okay option one's not open, I'm out of here. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's like I made, I mean, I've made a lot of things happen, but it's hard. Sure. It takes time. And I think guys got like as you get used to it, you're like, okay, I know that Ben's could be doing something here. I think you guys probably felt at some point, like if you're sitting wide as a tackle and I feel that little step up pocket, like I might be out of there. Exactly. And so I think it it probably took a while, but I think at some point you all start getting used to it a little bit. And and we had those conversations, right? Because I mean when we watch film, you look at it and you're like , okay, if Ben feels pressure here, here's what we can expect. Right. Kind of so for a degree. So now you kind of set and Kendall and I were really good at communicating. And so Kendall, you know, and Kendall was so fat. You know, he had the twitches. He was the one that got all stars fast. Fast. You said fat. I said fast. We're gonna check that. Kendall, I did not think you, I just wanted to know Kendall. I did not think you were fat. I thought you were fine physical specimen. You were fixing a post right here. Fixing a post. Actually put the word underneath. Close caption. This is what he meant. Translation. So he was quick off the snap. So I had to learn how to speed up with him when we would set double teams. Yeah. Cause I'm like, Kindle's literally, as soon as you say , Yeah, he's gone. Yeah. And God forbid it's a hard count. Now, I'm not as bad as juicy, yeah, but God forbid it's a hard count. Kindle and Kendall just look at you and just do this and just walk back to the huddle when we have a false stuff going like you knew what it was. So the ball you're closer to the ball than I am. Why are you jumping ? But but that was one of the things we would communicate. So we knew when we had twist games especially like okay if we can kind of pin this it'll give you a little bit more freedom to escape out the right side right because we're like that's what Ben if if it doesn't work he's gonna he's gonna leak right. Yeah. So it's like, well, why not just create the funnel for him so it makes it a little bit easier? Or if he just, because he doesn't feel the pressure, he can just kind of sit behind the right side. And so it took, I mean, we were probably what, it's probably like 12 games in, I want to say. I think I think right around Chicago was when we were like, okay, we kind of got to beat on what on what Ben likes to do. Yeah. And so, but yeah, no, you were definitely one of those that it was like, it was like, where is he at? Like, you want you you want the little biker, you know, a little side mirror. Okay, he's still back there. All right. Nobody's nobody's cheered or booed yet, so I guess he's still got the ball. Well that I feel like that like is a perfect segue into Super Bowl 43. Because obviously the like and and we can talk about whatever you want on that, but but to me it's the last drive. Oh and I'll never forget going into that last drive and it's our ball and we're down. And I cause I always I'm a grew up a Niners fan, Joe Montana. Yeah. And I remember the the story that the Niners tell of Joe Montana coming in the huddle and being like, hey guys, like the the the team's all stressed and whatever. And Joe Montana says, Hey guys, is that John Candy over there in the front row? You know, like let's settle him down. And I'll never forget on the sideline. I I try to do some sort of a like let's sell everybody down. First play penalty. I'm like, you know what? My peff talks don't work so well. This this isn't this isn't going so well. You're not supposed to go backwards the first play. My speech didn't hit. punch line. Yeah. Um but going backwards . But you you were left tackle that game. Um and and and going in like what what's your I I you know we'll get to the last play, but what do you were like that that whole series it felt like just a a whole Modge Podge of like little scrambles, little this. Like just just yeah, we things all over the place. We were just we were just getting it done. Getting it done. I mean that that that's exactly what it was. And I just remember like you said, like you had that moment as soon as we, you know, we lined up for kickoff and we're sitting over I just remember looking at it's like hey we're built for this like we they have doubted us this entire year and look where we're at right and so it was like we're gonna mess up but mess up doing it a hundred percent. Yeah and well that line was a Modge Podge line. Oh my god, yeah, because yeah, D State. You D-State was next to you, right? No, D-State was at right guard. Juice was like, Juice was left. Yeah. Um, Justin. Hartwig, yeah, center. D State. Yeah. And Willie. And Willie, yeah. I mean that that 's the highest draft well Jussell was drafted kinda high in Carolina, wasn't he? Yeah, he was. But he was with us. Second team, yeah. You were third round. Juice was juice . Juice is a wedge buster, let's be honest to begin with. Juice ju listen, that that Arizona. Your brother's Tiamat u. Y'all both y'all both some more. Yeah, there it is. Both both polys. Juice was a fourth rounder. Okay. I think Juice was fourth or fifth. D state was six late and Willie. I mean Willie was a third . Yeah, Willie was a third. I mean that's not what you expect. No. And and also the heights of all of us. Yeah. Well it looked like cell service. Yeah, but it was yeah, so that that but you're right was sp like we were all so close. Like we would go on trips together, like we were a very close group.. We have fun Very, very tight knit. And I think that's what led to the specialness, right? Yeah. Because I I've said on the show, and I'll I'll live and breathe and die by this, is that I'll take a guy with less talent and more heart over over more heart and less no, I'll say more heart, less talent over a lot of talent and no heart. Yeah, and that group had more heart, and not saying y'all didn't have talent, y'all were talented, obviously wouldn't be there. But the heart of that group was was just it bled through us all. And that that's what I think made that drive so special is that it's like, hey, we I don't care how we do it. Let's just get it done. Because you have to remember there was a young Calais Campbell on the other side. Yeah, that's right. Six foot-nine, dude. You had Darnell Dockett, who was at a playing at a pro bowl level. You had Antonio Smith. Then you had Bertram Berry on the edge. You had Travis LeBoy. And you had all of these really good defensive linemen. And then also you had um uh Carlos Dansby at linebacker. I mean, they had a heck of a heck of a front. And duh and D State, D State was going through it with Dockett. Yeah. And Docket was talking trepid.s So that' a lot of work. Dude, that was a lot of work. But D-Stape had a lot of heart. He did. He had no knees, but he had all heart. No knees were all heart and no knees. No knee, D stape. We love you, but you got no. He had grandpa knees. We called him grandpa knees. Oh my goodness. But he fought and and like you said, like to go through all of that, and we just looked at each other's eye. And you remember, we that year, like the the 08, we fought so much on the field. Mainly because of Willie. Yeah. Willie was gonna put it on Willie Cologne at this point. Yeah, Willie Cologne, not Willie Park. Willie Cologne's gonna just so Willy's Willie's gonna fight, you know, he you know, no butt and and all fists. Yes. You know, so he would socks, either . No socks. Oh, yeah. So here's the thing. And Willie, you can defend us if you want. He used to cut the actual sock part off and wear it as like leggings. These are all. Because he because you had to cover your legs, right? It was disgusting thing. Awful. And he they put a humidifier in his locker and it did not work. No. It did not work. Of course he would wear dress shoes with no socks. What? See how many pairs of shoes he borrowed from me and ruined? Old choice. Yeah, he was like, he's like, hey, Max man, uh sure fault. Hey, can I can I borrow? No, this is rookie year before the you know, the welcome dinner, you know, or the welcome luncheon. He's like, Max, man, I don't have any dress shoes here. We're just leaving training camp. It's down at the point at the hotel. He's like, Can I borrow some dress shoes? Like, yeah, man, my apartment's right over here. Hey, just meet me over there. So he picked out these nice shoes. He just keep them. And and and so we walk out and we get there, he throws the shoes on, like, hey bro, where your socks at? He's like, Oh, I don't wear socks, and walked off. I was like, no. I was like, bro, what don't work like that? And then he and then he took he had the nerve to take them off in the hotel after we were done and try and hand him back. I was like, You keep those, man. That's my gift to you. I would never wore those. Oh well. He said I don't wear size. He didn't ever. Don't say that like a side. Pctirace. ? Nothing Never with practice. Would you get to the bottom of that? Nobody asked, like, hey man. He just did he just didn't he just did it like socks. Yeah. He doesn't he was too restricted. Socks are the best. He just boycotted socks. Good socks. Yeah, he was a he was a full sock boycotter. Yeah. Just awful. Yeah. Uh anyway. That one that went that one dark. That one dark. He wore he he wore sandals a lot, didn't he? Yeah, he used to wear flip flop. Yeah. That's typical no socca. Just just same flip-flop guy over there. But that's right, we we got a lot of. Yeah, we will have a tangent. It's all good. But that the obviously the last play. And I always tell people like Santonio had a the the the first one was easier. The play before was the first and I tell I'm like it was the exact same play. We just ran it to the right side. It was literally 50, it was 58, and we just switched the formation. Yes. That was literally it. And I was like, he should have caught it the first time. And so people were like, well, what did you say? I was like, oh. Yeah. And I'm sitting there on the left. I'm ready to celebrate. It's like, yeah. It's so different. Because I was the same way. Like, oh my gosh. There it is. There it is. And I could imagine you're because you're seeing. Oh, I saw the whole thing. You knew the touch. You're like, this was, this was the perfect art, teardrop, right into his front shirt pocket. I was like, don't, don't show emotion, don't show emotion like, you know, like don't do it, don't do it. All right, guys, we could do it. But I also said, I was like, people were like, if you wouldn't have made it on the second one, I was like, it was only second down. And if you believe we weren't going to use all four downs to get that ball in the end zone, I tell people all the time, I my I I lost my mind because I forgot like a fugal tied it. Right. We were down three. Yeah, we were down three. Yeah. I wasn't playing for field goal. No. Like I forgot. Like I truly like that throw was dumb. And being said, like that's a fourth down throw. Like that's a throw you make on fourth down, last play of the game. Dumb. But it worked. Ye.ah So it was great. It's always great when it worked, right? Do you uh Six Panther. Yeah. 60% of the time it works all the time. Do you remember like your blocking you see like what at what point do you remember like looking up? Did you see the ball in the air still like what was what was what was going through your mind as as the plays unfolded like when when do you remember was you were you so engaged and like what what happened yeah I we I was I remember I was against I was against Bertram Barry and it's funny enough I, live now live in Arizona. So I started working on the radio station out there. Yeah. And they would put me on Birchard Berry's show. And B Train would just stare at me just like this. Cause he cause I cost him his his one Super Bowl shot, right? But I just remember I was so locked in and I was so tired. You have to remember, I tore my I tore my um I tore my LCL in the in the AFC championship game, the second play. So I had this mummy wrap from my hip all the way to my ankle. And so it was like it and because you know sweating so much humidity in Florida, like it started like pinching off like in my in my in the back of my knee and so I'm just fighting it I'm like my knees like kind of going numb and so I'm just like keep on him until until the whistle blows and so I didn't see it until I saw the replay on the big screen. So I had no clue that we had scored the touchdown until I saw everybody run into the corner. No way. And then I and then I ran to you. Yeah. Picked you up.. Yeah Oh, hey, Evan. We were just talking about Super Bowl 43. You remember that? 43. Yeah. You do. Yeah. Evan, this is Max. Well, you get your microphone. What's up, Evan? How are you, man? Get your microphone. It's okay. This is the like the family dinner is starting early. We're actually gonna we're gonna just talk about the family dinner and then we're gonna keep going with what we're talking about because we're yeah diving into this thing. We're going in. Um all right, so well this is kind of this is like the family dinner brought to you by Giant Eagle, but it's not the family dinner yet. It's just the food part of the family dinner. Yes. Because Evan came down on time . I just we weren't ready. Because we're we're these stories have been gre great.at. It's stories It was on two, and it was on two. No. Double count. No. Double count. I've got I got a specific number and I met that I met that number. You did. Red seven. Red seven. Um okay, yes. Okay, so we're gonna we're gonna get back into this is the family dinner um portion of the food portion of the show brought to you by giant eagle. Thank you everybody at Giant Eagle for this food. Thank you, Bill. Max shops generally too when he's in town. That's right. Evan gets it there. You said that the um they had a bunch of going things going on there today. They did. Yeah. They had the wiener dog there. The wiener mobile. Yeah, there we go. Um all right, Evan . Will you explain to us what we have here while we Now we're gonna get back into our story. Yeah, we'll welcome to stay as long as you want, but in the bowls, we got some uh shrimp and grits, shrimp and cheesy grits. That looks good. And then the pizza, the flatbread, I should say on the right there is my take on like a pierogi and steak flatbread. Okay. Nice. It's a little bit of mashed potato on there, some filet and sauteed onion. And then in the middle, those are Cuban, like Cubano egg rolls. Okay. So it's got everything that a Cuban sandwich has inside and are you are you still allergic to um meat and uh seafood? Yeah, I'm uh I I'm I'm vegetarian. I've prepared a vegetable dish as well, so oh man clippings. Well done. Well done. I mean this is amazing what's he hit he hit all three he hit all three of the proteins, right? No, that's yours. Oh, oh yeah, here we go. Well, okay. Um tell us what this is first, Vance. This is the Trogue's Daylight Chaser Dark IPA . Oh yeah, this is more hot. I can smell that one. And the color is deep mahogany. It is deep mahogany. Oh yeah. That gives you an amber look right there. That's nice. Actually, that's nice. Yeah, it's not it smells hoppier than it tastes. Yeah, that's that's not bad. I like them I like them. Um Turkey season. Trust me, it is coming up. I was excited. I was like Yeah. Uh do so we're we're we're getting back to the Super Bowl thing because I don't know how long Evan, you can stay as long as you want. But you know, Evan ? We haven't talked about I'm always saying this because we haven't got this maybe the family dinner . Your dad, yeah, Notre Dame. Yep. Did you know that? No. So exciting. Oh, you're diehard. Maybe the greatest D-line man in the history of Notre Dame. Right? D-line? Yep. Yeah. Ever. Very cool. Now you like Max all of a sudden. No, not all of a sudden. I've always liked Max. Okay, I'm just checking. Was there anything that you wanted to ask Max? Uh I was gonna say him and two of my so I had three family members that played in Notre Dame at the same time. Did you have one that went to SC though? Two . Two. I had two uncles that went with the S. How does that work? Yeah, no. So my grandmother was um my grandmother was torn. So she actually had a jersey bait that had half USC, half Notre Dame. Very cool. When she would show up to the games. Yeah. She was the originator of that. Yeah. She was one of the first. She's actually, do you know, she's actually my grandmother's the only woman to ever win the NFL Mother of the Year Award. What? Really? Really? How do you win? I mean, how do you like win that? They made it in 1988. They made that award and so the first year of it because she had three sons playing in the NFL at the same time. My my That would that would probably qualify you as well. Yep, she's got the stock. Good jeans. But my uncle got defensive player of the year, my uncle Joey for the Vikings. He was defensive player of the NFL defensive player of the year the same year. So they had created this award. It was only for one year, but my grandmother has the only NFL endorsed Mother of the Year Award. That's amazing. Very good by that. So yeah. So little hidden hidden hidden trivia. Little beer trivia. I like that. Um did you did you want to ask anything or did you want to listen to us talk? I'll just listen. Okay. You're welcome to it. You can pull the chair or whatever. We were just in the middle of talking about Super Bowl 43 . And what he remembered, Max didn't actually see the touchdown Until the Jumbotron . What what do you think was a bigger in your mind bigger play? Willie's Super Bowl run or that play? Oh, you know what? I I'm gonna have to go as much as great as a play as that was by Santonio, Willie's run because that was our first , and because we did it from a sixth seed, like we did something that nobody had ever done before. Situation around surrounding it. Situation around it. And then of course the mystique, right? You're sending Jerome off with a victory and all the emotion just to get him back that season. Um you know, whereas when we went in Super Bowl 43, we were kind of one of the favorites, right? We're the two seed. Yeah. We've been playing really well. So so, and we had already been there. So we kind of knew what it felt like, right? The first time we had no clue. Like you said, like Indianapolis, you would have thought we won the Super Bowl that day. And then to still go on and play and get to Detroit and then all the stuff surrounding that and get to the game. I just felt like like that one, Willie's run sticks out because that was almost like a plant your flag, like our team's legit. Yeah. And we're and we're gonna be in this conversation for years to come. Okay. So that leads me to a qu I don't like this to be interviewee, but I'm gonna ask you this interview question as you take a bite because I'm uh this is gonna be a this is gonna be a longer setup question. Okay, good. But I'm gonna let you as you as you as you house all this food real quick. These grits every time. Grits are unbelievable. Um , because it kind of goes with the two questions , the two the two plays. You're an office of lineman. Everyone knows how much lineman love to run the ball. Okay? Yes. Or when the team runs the ball behind the guys. I'm I'm I'm fine with that. So my question is I mean it's fine. It's boring, but it's fine. Um my question is people. You're sitting at you're at what you want to be right or left tackle? Left tackle. Just go left. Left tackle because that's like the pristine passball. Okay . I'm gonna give you two different play scenarios. I want you to tell me which one is means more to you. Okay . Pass play called in the huddle. Okay. You're about to set. You got an edge rusher coming. You got you got James Harrison. You got TJ. You got you got a you got a dude coming. Yeah. Now you're pass setting quarterback, Ben Rothesburger . Sets deep. You're kicking. Oh boy, here comes a blitz. Now I got a hand on the best and I gotta throw my an arm, uh uh uh extended the blitz because a blitz boom and you do this whole thing, right? You you're just rush, rush me, rush, rush max. Go, go now. Right. Neither , please. You double, you get two guys. You know, we talk, get two, got two guys. Ball gets out. Touchdown. Oh my goodness. Ah, it's 50-yard touchdown. Pass ball was in the air for 60 yards. Okay . There's play one. Play one. Next play . We're gonna call a little run to the left. Run comes. Now you're just you you drive your guy all the way to the sideline. Run goes in for like a nice twenty yard run. Which play is better for you? Twenty yard run. See, I thought you knew it. You call it that. You said I drove the guy to the sidelines. I know I was like , that means that just dominating this dude. That's all take now, man. And the stress, the stress level of the double window panes is what we call it. Dang it. The double window washer. And it's like, it's one of those where it's like, oh no, I didn't call a fan. Like it's like you're trying to make up for something like, did I miss something? But it's like, you know, like the duel on the backside, like take two for three. And you but all three come, and you're just like, oh . Cause I had that habit a couple times in our career where we had it and it was corner fire and the end was still rushing me like straight on my straight on my on my uh chest and the guard and everybody they're they're they're going turn to the right yeah and but I see the guy, you're like trying to feel for something. There's no hand up and I miss him. And then BA coming to the meeting on Monday. Is that your one, Max? Is that your one? I'm like, God, dog. I'm like, yes, that's my one. That is my one, BA. Thank you. I was like, yes, I got been killed. Thank you for reminding me. And and let some stress level. The lookout box. Oh god. Oh What's your boy? Help! Oh , now just joking out. Love you. Um all right. So let's let's move on to this because we're we could spend all day. This is great. I love talking to you. So as we said, we're gonna let's dive quickly into like kind of the current state of the Steelers. Like just just we don't have to spend a lot of time there because the drafts coming up. Yeah. Obviously this show will be actually while Evans here's just perfect timing. This show is airing next week. Okay. Tuesday after the draft. Yes. So when people are watching this, they're gonna know who we've drafted. Yeah. So I'm gonna we're gonna start this episode this this next segment with who did they take? We're gonna see how good you guys are. So go ahead and take a time because I know I see you're stressed out. Your face got red distress. I'm surprised he doesn't have his pics in his piece of paper in his pocket. By the way, my notebook up some. That's why you're sweating. Max, what what do you see the Steelers? You don't have me the pick right now, but what do you see the Steelers doing with they have 12 picks, which is you can never use 12 picks unless you have Browns. You can use all 12 and then you're gonna find some more on quarterbacks. Seven quarterbacks this year. Um the uh so what what do you what do you see happening? Can we give me an overall picture first and then go into Yeah, so I think like I look at it and I think the top the top needs um are going to be you know safety, guard , wide receiver, and then offensive line depth. Like those things, especially after hearing the news or setback with Broderick and his progress. So now it's like, okay, offensive line is now even more at the front of it. Yes, I know, you know, and Dylan Cook did an awesome job at the end of the season last year coming in , but I think you have to look at guard because Isaac Ciamalu's gone. Right. The problem is it's like, do you go early? Do you jump up to go get Ione from Penn St ate. I don't think he'll be there at twenty one. No, he's not gonna be there. I don't think that's no. I think the sweet spot's gonna be fifteen. That's the latest he can drop. And even then, I think you have to go in front of Baltimore to get it. I think they want him too. Yeah, because Baltimore really won't. But again, with 12 picks, jumping. I I wouldn't jump into the top ten to get somebody. But you can jump to like fifth. Like Baltimore did that with us, like on a tight end. Was it and like they've done that to us too? Yeah, Mark Andrews, I think it was. I'd be all for jumping like you can jump five or six spots, get to that fifteen, fourteen, that sweet spot you talk about, and get someone like like that that guy. I think that's the guy you want. Yeah, the ideal. That's that's the ideal guy you want the first round. And I think if you can't get him, now it's like now I think wide receiver safety are probably the next position that's first round worthy for that because I don't think there's a tackle by the time they get to 21 that you're gonna say hey this is a guy I want to build depth around or could potentially compete. Because I think those guys will be gone. Spencer Finaud, Francis Miley Noah, um, potentially whether you like Max, Iana Chore, or you like um Caleb Lomo, um, you know, those guys are gonna break freelancing , by the way. Yeah, Monroe Freeling, Blake Miller. Like those guys are gonna be gone. Yeah. And this is all in my brain because I do I have I'm there for all two hundred fifty seven picks. I can reel out the list. And so I think I look at safety. I think Dylan Thinneman and Emmanuel McNeil Warren, probably the two safeties that are gonna be after Caleb Downs. How good is that? This is the most this is one of the more remarkable things you've ever made. This is a Cuban sandwich egg roll. Yes. Sorry. Sorry. It needed its own space. Please, Max, continue. That is all. Or no take your time, Max. Take your time. Take your time. I'll take a spirit and I'll talk about it. You rattled off those names. That was very impressive. While it's yeah, while it's going on, do you agree with what Max is saying or you disagree with everything? Yeah, I agree a hundred percent. Like cause the news about Broderick and and all that completely changes, you know, the draft order for the Steelers, I believe. Yeah. And I I agree with the wide receiver take too. I just don't know which ones will be available in that first round again. Do you still want the Steelers to trade up and get the running back from Notre Dame? Oh man. Man. Hey. Dream. Yeah. That would be something. And if running back, he's like, not Jadarian Price . I'll take Jarian Price too. I like Jadarian Price. Yeah, but I mean, yeah. I mean Jeremiah loves that dude's gonna be he's ridiculous. Like watching him because I had their playoff game last year. Uh Jordan's last year, Jordan Clark's last year at Notre Dame. So I called that Indiana Notre Dame playoff game. And he was special then. Yeah. Um, but you know, I I look at that and I say, I don't know, like you said, I don't know if there's a running back that's worthy of that 21 after Jeremiah Love goes. But day two , if you got a guy sliding in that second round, when they get up to it, especially I think, you know, as you look at the third round, you're gonna you're gonna play with what have I got in the first two rounds? Because you got those three that are kind of all melanged together. Yeah. I think if they are gonna move up, they'll probably package two of those threes to get go to go for to go for the guard or penn state. And I I would not hate that. And I'm fine with three picks. It's just total in the first three rounds. Yeah. I I'm I don't I I I think I'm you know I was talking to I was on James Harrison's show, and I was surprised to hear him say he goes, I would take offensive line the first two picks. Like I just don't I think depth is just too important. And then with Roderick and then I would go get the like I would try and get a guard like that stud guard. And then I would I would go get the best available. I don't care if he's a center, a tackle, a guard, because you there's just you need depth. You need to have that. Now I know there's need for wide receivers and I know but don't don't take a flyer. Don't don't reach at someone. Like if they I mean, I know that Evan always tells me as they're talking about like this mock draft hasn't taken the what's the quarterback from Alabama Oh Tyson Simpson, yeah. If they if they touch ed around the first round, I will absolutely burn burnt his jerseys. No, I got way too much involved with that stuff. That's like burning money at this point . Here's my wallet. Okay, so we hear what you s what they need and we'll obviously we'll know and I I I don't disagree with you. What who's what what do they do? Give me your predictions. I want to hear both you guys' predictions of what they're going to do. How prophetic you are . The pressure's on. And I gotta follow him. Like you wanna go first? No. Still a trade up and get the Vanga from uh from right before Baltimore. Yeah. Like jump to like eleven or twelve. Okay. Like go for Cowboys or Dolphins right outside the top ten . I think they move up to ten . But but you realize who who who has ten right now? I don't know. Guys got number ten because they trained for J Dexter Lawrence. Yeah, you probably get it from New York, but I think New York wants that ten because they know that they need help because they already have that higher pick as well. He just wanted one more pick than you. I'm like this can go one of two ways, Ivan . All right. And it worked the way I thought it would. I got pass. So my God. All right. That's so that that's it. You think you're going they're going line? I mean they're going with him. I th I think if they're going to trade up and not stay at twenty one, that's what they're going to do. What if they don't trade up? What do you think? You think they're trying to get like the best receiver, best say like best of those three safety? I mean safety, safety or wide receiver. Yeah. At 21. You think safety is that important? Like they need this. I I see I thought, I said this a long time ago, that one of the things I thought was like very important was that for them to try and find a game changing safety. But I don't know how like Caleb, like I think Ohio State dude's a stud. Yeah, I'm and he's gonna be top three. Yeah. But but you need a game changer. And I I'd never want to say you need the next Troy. You need to try to find the next almost Troy because that's hard to find. Yeah. Troy like guy. But I just don't know who that is. I don't I don't dive into it enough to know. But it it but if that's not I just I just what I don't want to see is them , you know, we we always talk about on the show when we talk about draft, it's like okay, you know you have your needs, and then you always have like that separate category of like best of just best available. Best available. But like don't take the best available of like a tight end or a whatever. Like it just makes me nervous that maybe maybe the r the the everything's different now. I don't know. New new regime . No. No. Okay. You heard it here first. No. Here we go again. I'm gonna stand up real fast. Do you is is the food all gone? No. Is there any more up there? No. No. get ev this is your dream ev this is it evidence for this i can rush upstairs and get more food yeah you've been talking that's a bathroom right there yeah that's a worthwhile talk about this it's a worthwhile rush. Yeah, thank you. Those are good. Any more grits? Yeah, I would take a grit. Do you want me a bowl or then a bowl? They got it. Those grits are unbelievable. What's that? I'll get more of everything. More of everything. What do we why would we not take more of everything? Evan, one of you ever asked me if I wanted more and I said no. Yeah. Um You know like this is you know what we'll just bring your mic in there. We'll just keep it going. Yeah. makes the show special. Well there it is. I like that though. I like I like what he said. I like the I like I I I don't disagree. I think it's linemen. I think that guard. At this stage, I can't see them not doing that. Right? I don't I don't I don't know. I mean I a a receiver wouldn't I wouldn't hate a receiver. But I'm saying moving like moving up. Moving up. I think you have when you have 12 picks. You have to use those 12 picks. You can't Well and and I think what you need isn't going to be at 21. So you know No, yeah, no, I would agree with you. Like you at 21, you're you're doing best available , you know, unless like unless for some reason, you know, people fall, but at that point in time, like don't you can't risk it. Yeah. You know? Yeah, I don't it's yeah, with that much capital , you should be Yeah, but uh yeah, I just don't I don't think they I don't want to trade. I don't think they should trade up to like inside the top ten and try to do something crazy. There's no need for that. Yeah, you're not looking for a quarterback. There's not somebody in there, you're not gonna get your Mendoza. You're not going to be. I would love for them to do to just just, hey, Baltimore. You want this guy? Guess what? Swipe him. Bingo. Swiper. Swipe. No swipe. Swipe. No swipe. No swi.ping no Swipey. No swipey. Yes., Dora Is that Dora? I think, yeah. Swipy, no swipe. Swiper, no swiping. Swiper, no swiping. Yo, my daughter, my four-year-old daughter hit me. She was watching Dora. She hit me with just a noise. It wasn't a word. And you know, Dora would be like , Nor ang ha and like it's orange and you know, and she'll say the word in Spanish or whatever. And my daughter goes, I don't that's Spanish for I'm like baby that's not . Unless you speak it in tongues, that is not a language. Like, I don't know. Yeah. But she said it confidently, looked me straight in my eyes, and I was like, I applaud the confidence. That was yeah, that was impressive. The confidence was great. Yeah. Um , all right. So you're movinging up. Mov up. What what but is Aaron coming back? I thought they would have liked to know before the draft too. But I think Charlie Batch is the one's been saying this. And he might not be the only one saying this. But Charlie's been calling it a lot recently. And some people are starting to pick up on it that he's he's saying, and I'm gonna keep saying about Charlie because they're gonna put it on me and they're gonna make it like Ben said. Charlie Batch said that it's about the money. Or or he thinks it could be about the money. I should say I shouldn't say Charlie. He doesn't I don't maybe Charlie does know. Charlie knows a lot of things. But Charlie's saying that, you know, I I think it's more about there there's more here than just does he want to play or not play? It's like maybe maybe either Aaron's asking for more than the Silvers are willing to give. Maybe you know there might be something there. So so you know who knows what's going to happen. But um you know, what does your gut tell you? Is Aaron coming back? So my gut's kind of been that I think Aaron wants to come back. Yeah. I think he wants to come back. I think this is just kind of playing hardball right now. Because of the money. Because of because of the or a contract or however. I I don't think it's necessarily I think he wants time. I think he wants like a two year deal instead of a one year deal. Oh, really? Well j just to have that those comfortability about it. And then you know, you can spread stuff, dead money around, all kind of stuff. Byron, I think after last year, just seeing how he left the field and how pick six is a tough. Disappointed and feeling like he let them down. Like y'all brought me in here to do this. Yeah, and it's like and I didn't hold up my end of the bargain. And you know, I think there's something about him. I mean, you know, I feel like you have a very similar like mindset from that perspective where it's like this was going differently in my mind and I knew what I wanted to get accomplished and I didn't quite get to my level that I thought I wanted to. And so it'll it'll drive you. And I think that seeing that like snapshot as they walked in the locker room at the end of the game, that's what, that's what kind of got me. And then when I went down the tunnel afterwards, I was like , hmm, this seems different. It don't seem like a goodbye, like I'm done. It seems like this seems like I'll see you soon, type of deal. So that's that's why I kind of feel in my gut with him. But you know what? Is I'm sitting here at Max's you,'re saying we're the same age. You're actually older than me. About a month, no, two months. You're January. I'm March. Oh, Jesus. Okay. Semantics. It's less than two months. Yeah. Um, but as we're sitting here, and I know that you you know, Father Time's undefeated. He is. Oh . Hey. So I you know that yeah. I don't know if you guys saw me like catching a cramp sitting down. So yeah, Father Time definitely went out of get out of bed hurting sometimes. But um but anyway, no. Yeah, you get out of the bed. Yeah. Um have you heard about Will Howard? Like how he's done it at the was it what's going on at Willow. Minicamp. Oh my goodness. Um I wonder about it I think it's great. This is like I love that he's getting the reps. I'm a I'm a I'm a I'm a big supporter of like giving him a shot. Yeah, I want to see him get a legit shot. If Aaron doesn't come, obviously it's going to be if Aaron comes basically. But I mean, he need because he we have not seen him throw a competitive pass yet. I know. Like I was so excited for the his last few years of college, his last few games. I mean, last few games really good. And I and and I had him at K State before he went to Ohio State too. So I I I've got to the worst thing that happened was him getting hurt and not getting any pol any preseason reps. So it was it was horrible. Especially like, I mean, that Carolina game he, would have got a ton of raps. Yeah. Um, and Jacksonville and to not have him there. And I thought, okay, things are starting to progress and he's gonna and then boom, set back again. But I but I I want I want to see what he can do. I don't care where he was drafted and people like, oh well it was since he wasn't. I don't care. It doesn't matter. If you could throw the football, you can throw the football. He played at a big time program and he went and won. Yes. And and had probably one of the best postseason stretches of a quarterback in the playoffs. Let's be honest. You went to a big time program. I didn't, but when you're playing in those postseason games, those are like mini NFL teams. Like they're there there's so many NFL players. Like you're playing so many look how many are about to get drafted. Like from Ohio Day. There's it's probably more competitive than a preseason game, to be honest. Like there's a lot, there's a lot better going on. I mean, well, for us, even when we played right, we said game day was easier than practice because we had the number one defense in the league that we were going up against every day. So when we got to the game, it was like a break. Yeah. Oh. Troy's not out there running around. Oh, thank goodness. Oh, thank God. It's just the Jets. James isn't coming off the edge and like bull rushing me in shells and then I step on Ben's ankle and spraying it for a Ben there. You know what a nineteen feels like on a on a on a foot? Yeah. No, not good. Thank God. Try it. No, I'll try it. I'll think I worked with a spikes. Yeah, with a cleat. Oh, it was so bad. On a big toe, round a big toenail. Yeah, yeah. well that's I I can't wait to see what happens. I I wouldn't be like crazy if they did exactly what Max said. I wouldn't be surprised, man. I feel like it's one, your insight and just yes, I feel like you you've you know obviously what you do for a living now, um you're you're tapped into it. But it's it seems very wise based upon what we need right now, man. It's like I can't see that's what we were just saying. Like, I can't see them not moving up . I mean, at least taking a shot at it. Right, yeah. Whether it works or not is a whole different story because obviously you have to have a suitor that's willing to take that deal. Right. But if we're going strictly off needs and what could elevate this team regardless of whoever's at quarterback, as you know, but build your line. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Build your line. And build a line and then put a quarterback into it. Then you then you insert quarterback. That's why I said I said if you build both your offensive and defensive lines, and then you go get a quarterback, that's the perfect progression that should be. Teams want to get a quarterback and then build a line around. No, I've seen that for a bit preach. I know. Remember David Carr. Yeah. We went down to Houston, right? They did not build that line and David got absolutely assassinated. Did you think that the the McCarthy did you like the McCarthy hire? I did. I did actually like it because at first, you know, everybody's like, oh booing it. I'm like, but think about this, right? If you didn't really love any of the candidates this year that were coming out, and also so so much later in the process as well, getting into it, I was like, why wouldn't you go take a guy that you know has a proven track record of winning? Yep, and he's done it arguably the other two biggest franchises in the NFL, in the Cowboys and the Packers, point storied hit franchise, didn't blink an eye, and he's from Pittsburgh. That's that's that said something to me right there. When you're a Yinzer on top of that, like the dream and He knows what it is to what it what it means to be to bleed black and gold here. He does. And he's bled black and gold and just had to cover it up all those years. Yeah. When he when he coached for the second, third biggest teams in the NFL, I mean it makes sense. You can't say, ah, this is still my favorite. Yeah. But to I so I feel like there's a certain stewardship when it's in that position. Right. And he's going to do everything in his power to be successful and pour his heart into it. And that's what I care about, right? I care about a guy pouring. Do I need another 19 years like Mike Tomlin or 12 from Cower. No, but I want the passion and the intensity to be there. And I feel like he has that offensive mind. He's put together a really good staff. Yeah. I I'm like, I'm all for it because I think it's something different, but yet it's a guy who carries a philosophy and carries the traditions. So you're not gonna be changing the entire culture. The whole way. Yeah. The whole yeah, he he if anything, he wants to keep it, get back to it, whatever you wanna call it. And I think it there there's not many people out there that would want to win a Super Bowl as bad as he would. I know every all coaches listen, what do you mean, but no yeah all coaches want it. Yeah. But for him to win it here, there's a little something extra. I mean that that's a childhood fantasy. Yes. You know what I'm saying? That's the stuff you go and play backyard football and throwing and throwing the ball up to your buddy on a go route, right? No, those are the moments you think of. Like I still think of like when we went to Super Bowl 40, I still think about I was in eighth grade. I was at my boy William Whitehead's house. And I think Williams actually still lives up. I think he moved up here to Pittsburgh, actually. And we're playing basketball in the front in the front yard, and we go in to watch Super Bowl 30, Cowboys Steelers. And that was the first time where I was like, man, I'd love to do that one day. And it just vividly sticks. That's what that feels like. Yeah. Even though you're like, there's no, I'm sure in Mike McCarthy's mind, I've been in Green Bay so long, I've been in doubt. I'm never gonna make it back to Pittsburgh. And then I'm out of coaching. You know, there's no way the Steelers only had three coaches since 1969. Yeah, and then you get that call. No . Oh. Your hometown team. Yeah. Yeah. You're like 10 minutes away from this from the from the training facility. Yeah. Yeah. Well, speaking of the coaches, you you open the door real quick. What uh obviously Tomlin. Now you saw now you're in the media job. You've joined, you've done radio, um, done TV. You've kind of done a little bit of obviously you you enjoy doing that. Is that I'd love to kind of get your thoughts on like what what is the future look like for you? What's your dream? Well, are you trying to do do that? What you think about Salman getting the NBC gig? I love it. He's going to fit right in. Yeah. I mean, you think about this. Who is his protege? Who do you look up to? Tony Dungeon . Yeah. And you're replacing Tony Dungey on Sunday night football. Like there's no better consideration for that. So I think I think he's gonna do excellent. I think he has the personality for it. Oh, yes. This is the family dinner brought to you by John Eagle. Yes, it is. Part did. Thanks, Evan. Enjoy, John. Appreciate you very much. , I think he'll bet he'll be he'll do good with this. I think he'll be good because he has a personality, right? And he has his Tomlinisms that they'll work into it. But I think for him him, it gives that flexibility to only have to work one day a week. And he gets to see his kids. Because the biggest thing was he wanted to see Harley, right? Yeah. Participate in gymnastics. He's been down at all those meets. He's getting to be dad. Right. Right. So I think I think it still gives him that flexibility. Yeah. Well that I think that's that's perfect. That's we cannot actually really do the family dinner. You're talking about kids and doing all that stuff. Um and I I'll add you can So you're you're obviously doing large bird s. That's good. You're obviously doing a lot of the media stuff right now and traveling and doing you know the Steeler stuff. Yeah. Did um and you have I mean you have beautiful wife who she was now is she still working? Yeah yeah she's still a physician active inpatient care she wasn't a ER doctor what was what was she doing when you uh physical medicine rehab? So she was in residency here. Okay. At UPMC. Yeah, I knew she was doing like a new you know big we all we we married way . No, oh we outkicked our coverage. Absolutely. Actually, all three of us did. Um so another family dinner, we like to sit down that we think family dinners are important. We talk about things. And so you've got uh an amazing wife, um, smart, awesome, two beautiful daughters. Yes. That are 13 and 11. 11. Yeah. Volleyball. We thought we're talking about it. What's uh, you know, what's it like being, I mean, how often are you on the road? How often are you traveling away from them? What's what's like what talk to me about family real quick. Like what's going on in your family? So fall and winter. Daddy isn't daddy's not there on the weekends because I'm covering college and pro football. So obviously I called the Steel I do I do Steelers games every week . I also do ESPN college games every week. And then when the Steelers don't just a random game, like whoever they they it's not usually the number two game of the week on radio. I'm on I'm on the I'm on the number two crew. And then when the Steelers don't play on Sundays, I do the NFL radio broadcast coverage for ESPN. Nice. Okay. So whether we have Thursday night football, Friday night football, or Monday night football, I'll go do a Sunday one o'clock game for ESPN on the radio. So I'm gone about 23 weekends in a row during that time. I mean your wife and girls obviously. Yeah, I mean all the girls. All the girls. All three of the girls. It's tough. And that's why when I'm home during the week, like I do I do our I do our in the locker room show that you've been on I do it from the house there, which is nice having a Comrax unit where I can do the show and be home because I want to be there for for pickup from school because, I I can can''tt, do drop off in the mornings in the fall because our our show starts too early. But just to make sure that I'm present, right? I mean, to know that hey, daddy's there regardless. If I'm not physically there, I'm a phone call away, I'm a FaceTime, I'm a zone i mean we i remember doing homework on the road like on face time i'm grabbing a piece of paper at the hotel room we're trying to math problems and everything um but i mean yeah they my my family means the world to me. I mean, like you said, you I mean, yeah, you've known Tiff for I mean 20 years, you know. So um so yeah, so being away and ti Tiff's Tiff's just a champ. I mean, she she handles that household. She keeps everything going. Like I said, weekends to have two girls doing two separate things and be able to manage that on her own. It's hard to hard doing with your parents. Exactly. So she's a superstar. And so, you know, I can't I can't thank her enough. I got the perfect partner. Mm-hmm. And and and and we kid about , you know, like, hey, you know, how long have we been together? God, you're old. She looks at me all the time. I'm blah, I'm blah, I'm like, well i mean i was a spring chicken at one point but but i mean but we we have a great relationship a great um foundation and so you know and the girls the girls are just they're happy they try and make it as easy on us as possible at times sweethearts but but as sisters you know they they have their they know how to put they know how to push that exact button of each other and it's just it's hilarious to watch that yeah that dynamic but like you said, they're great. They play sports.'re They both the girls are in volleyball. My youngest is also in softball and Waverly plays tennis as well. Oh nice. Um so Waverly and Quincy. You're not playing any tennis. I'm watching. I am a I am a great watcher of tennis. I will talk all the smack from the sidelines, but I will not touch a racket . Um, and so so yeah, that's kind of our life. And then you know, we we we got our we got our other bad dog. You remember Leo, my old Rhodesian ridgeback. So yeah. So obviously he passed during COVID, but we we have a Spanish water dog now. Oh my goodness. Oakley . He's neurotic. The pause. Yeah, he's he's neurotic. I love him. The energy level, he's five years old. Oh yeah. Everybody's like, living in the city though. I had an urban apartment with a hundred and fifteen pound dog. The dog that hunts lions. Yeah. And he and he's just chilling. And and so every time the furries convention would come to town in the summer the furries would be looking at him and he and he'd he'd be ready to go at him 'cause he's like he's seeing all these tails and masks and ears and stuff oh my god. Yeah. He used to get into it with the furries all the time. That's hilarious. Max, I I I'm thinking at some point I might need because my obviously my daughter's one year behind your oldest, right between your two groups. Yeah. But I feel like now I would say this. This is why I'm gonna say I'm gonna say this in the nicest of ways, okay, Max. And I'm and I'm gonna take this down the road, but I'm gonna start with here. And again, please, I say this with all due respect when all love. Max is one of the kindest , best , big-hearted, loving people that I've ever met in my life. Okay. Just salt of the earth. We'll do anything. Give you sure of his back. We'll do anything for you. Doesn take't anything away from you as a football player. Obviously, you I think God made you a little bit kinder than others because otherwise you would just destroy people. So big and mean. Yeah. Yeah. And again, but I'm I mean that in like you are one of the best people I've ever met my entire life. My question is. Okay, so I'm setting it up for my question. Yeah. Absolutely. When the the as a dad I know how to answer I know how to speak when when the when when one of the girls decide when either one of the girls decides to bring that that guy home for the first time , which Max are we getting? Are we getting the one that God should have made? Oh , I go to jail. Like could you imagine this? Like so Max's wife, Tiffy, she's six six foot. She's a six foot ones. Six foot and a half ye,ah yeah. She's she's, she's tall. So there's there's height in the family. Max is not a small human being. We know we can see that. Yes. Okay . Could you imagine? I assume that anybody that would ever, and again, I'm sorry that we're talking about data. I have a daughter too, so I get it. Yeah. Could you imagine? I again I assume that whoever is going to ever talk to your daughter is going to know who their dad is. Yeah. I assume they should. They should. But could you imagine going to the door? Yeah . And it's like, this is exactly what it'd be like. Yeah, it's it's that it's that scene from Bad Boys 2. It's Bad Boys 2. All the way. Yeah, Reggie. I hope that Max comes to the the door for first time in a white speeder with a stain on it. Yeah. Shotgun. A little bit of blood. I was I was n't something out there. What's up, man? What do you need? Have you thought about that day? Or I hope that has it happened yet? No, it has not happened. Okay. And my daughters also know. They're like , yeah, no. I'm not interested in you guys yet. We good. That's the same way. Yeah. Have you thought about well like what is it gonna be like yeah I'm hating him immediately thank you that's why I wanted to my daughters ask is like Dad but what I said I I hate him. Doesn't matter I don't know him. I I don't know what he's gonna be like he's a missionary takes care of his brother and sit. I don't care. This kid could be the second coming. But if he comes to my door asking for my daughter's attention, I hate you on site, love. And there's nothing you can do that's gonna make you ingratiate yourself to be. I don't care if you come up and you're like the biggest, nicest offensive lineman, you're affable, you have a 7.0 GPA. Exactly, exactly. And I was like, you know where you're gonna be the best tackle? Over there. Over there. You have all of my hate. All of my hate is directed into you saying . That's amazing. Yeah, yeah. No, there they will never be. Yeah. I approve I as a as a dad of two daughters, I approved that message. Yeah, I've got we all okay. Max, here's what we're gonna do. As you're go ahead and take your time. Spence. Yeah. Hit us with the last one. Oh, I gotcha. Okay. Did I miss anything on that? You good. Anything else you want to talk about family with? Okay, so here's how we're gonna end the show. I'm gonna tell you about this. We're gonna we're gonna hit this last one like this . And then we're gonna do a little thing, we call the two-minute drill. Okay. Okay. Let me ask a question real quick. You want to you can explain the game first. But I'm good. I'm curious because we've got a lot of offensive guys on here. What what was it like from your perspective when Ben would start doing no huddle. Chaos. Are you like, all right, yeah, let's press them. Are you like, hey man, can a brother catch a brother? No, I I look forward to it because I'm like, especially at end of the game scenarios. Yeah, yeah. There's nobody I'd rather have leading the char ge because you know Wiz or BA were gonna get in his ear. Yeah. And his head was gonna be, F all that. This is what we're doing, okay? And I'll tell you the best one, and now I feel like the statute of limitation is up. 2012. Remember when we had our NASCAR package installed with Todd? Yeah. Remember how we complained? It was only right-handed formations? Yeah. We had no left-handed formations. So we could so depending on the hash, we couldn't switch based on the rule, right? Mm-hmm . About week six. We get to a NASCAR situation and Bear's like, listen, look at me, follow what I'm saying, and let's just go. Override. Override. He overwrote because how can you get into a right hash and have a right formation into the boundary? Right. Right. How we have a three by one lined up that tight? And then you got one receiver with like three quarters of the field. You know what I'm saying? It was stupid. And then we would run plays weak side to the open field, and we don't have enough people because they're all crammed on the sidelines. So we were getting frustrated. And this is a sign of Ben's leadership, right? Forget all that. We're gonna do this. We're gonna flip it. Just listen and just follow. You know, and and we did, and we finally flipped it because Todd was stubborn. Because we could. Because we could do it. Because we all knew and we're all veterans. There's like there's no real rookies out there at the time. No. So we're like, we did that. So that was one of the things I remember. And thank God for him. But yeah, but Ben was a guy, like, if I had put money on it, who's gonna get this guy was the drive and he's gonna find a way. It was I always say that using like I would utilize you guys like more than anybody. Like receivers always like, oh no, I got this guy beat. He's tired. Like, okay, yeah, I hear you. But but there were there were like we could be going in, and I know everyone knows I like to throw the ball. Like that's that's what quarterbacks like do. Yeah. But when we would go no huddle or a two-minute draw or whatever, I would rely on y'all because you guys would be like, Hey, they're gat like their front's gas, better run the bowl. Like they can't do it, or run a boot, running this, do like get out of the pocket, do these things because they got nothing like don't even slow it down like and you got it was amazing to me how we could we could get like a 10 8 8 10 12 play drive and y'all wouldn't really be that gag I mean y'all would be tired don't get me wrong. But uh like the D line, well, like they were just sucking it. And y'all would be like, hey, they got nothing. Like, just Ben, keep running this thing. Run it, run it, do this. Lean on them. Yes, lean on them. And so I would just I would rely on you guys so much because y'all wouldn't tell me things that just because y'all wanted to run the ball or get the glory of this, that, and the other. It was like, hey, y'all got something. Or hey, Ben, they're jumping this count, change we gotta slow this up a little bit whatever it is you know give me a hard count give me just don't tell juice just don't tell juice just just keep it quiet don't tell don't tell don't tell the word but you're right I mean and it was like sometimes it was like, hey, the best course of action, sprint draw is the best option here, right? You know, because they're playing so far upfield and they're not reading to the inside. Man, we could gash them with it. Or it's like, don't run over here. We we are hurting right now. Or or or like y'all would tell me, Hey, listen, I'm I'm hurting. Like so I got I got I got a stinger, I got this, I got that. Like like give me a give me a tight end, give me a credit, give me something and need it to trusted what yeah, give me a chip. This guy's got he's got a beat on us right now. Yeah, I need a chip. All right, I'll send it back over to the chip. Cincinnati game. Year the year um 11 2011 season in Cincinnati when I had herniation and disc in my neck, and we didn't know what it was. And you kept coming over and picking me up, like, hey, because we had already lost two live and so we had big fella. So it was space. So it was space warming up on the side. We'll put tight in it. Do it no hey Max can you put a different collar on Max? We gotta get going. So he was picking me up and walking me like down the field as we were driving. And it was like those type of things. He's like, okay, well, we're gonna go to the right. We're gonna go to the right because Max is just holding on for dear That's what you gotta do. And so and so those are like those moments, right? You know, where he you take the temperature of the room and he was good at at being able to feel that rhythm. So then when he audibled, he knew what he was audibling too, and he knew it was going to put us in a good position. He was never going to screw us, you know, on an audible, but like, all right, guys, we're running spread, we're going 58. We just came out of two tight end set, yeah, and we were supposed to be running like dive. He wasn't gonna do that to us. But you were always good about sensing that. Yeah. Well it's again trusting you guys that you would you'd be honest with me. It's funny because I it just made me think of something. I the the to me, a true how do I how do I say this? I want to make sure I'm very politically correct when I say this. The best linemen and the best quarterbacks, when if if if I throw a touchdown pass, I'm not running down the field to celebrate my touchdown. I'm celebrating with the boys because they're the ones that did it. The linemen are the only ones a quarterback needs. Receivers need a quarterback, running back needs a quarterback. So everyone needs a quarterback because they get them the ball. Yeah. We need them. Right. And so whenever when I watch guys, when I watch quarterbacks throw a touchdown pass and they just run down the field, there's nothing wrong with celebrate. I get it. But to me, I'm like, I'm right here. Give me all five, y'all. And then if I ever had linemen that would run down the field, I'm like, hey, what we're doing? Why are we not here first? Whoa,. first Honor number one. Come on. Eyes up top, sir. Eyes up top. And so it made me think of early in my early on in the career with Max as we played together for so long, is like I would when I'd see Max, he I would like jump and he would he would pick me he would catch me. I'm like Max holding a big guy like Max would hold me. And as I got older I realized it's a long way down. So I just wanted Max won't give me hope. tired in the game, like at the end of the game, I have no legs. I have no legs . We're just gonna hug it. We're just gonna hug it. Oh that's a perfect segue. Get specs. What do we have for you? , it's six percent. Just a nice little easy drinker . Little more bitter. I mean not horrible bitter though. Neither one of the neither one of these three have been like super hoppy. Troy no. Troy's makes a good IPA. Yeah, yeah, no, this is good a balance. I'll drink. Brendan would like those. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. Those are all really good. Trogues, thank you. We know we we appreciate Trogues. You guys do a great job. Um , Max, this is how we're gonna finish this thing. Okay, two-minute drill. I'm a set of clock. And these are like rapid fires. Okay. First, I mean you gotta just just give me a first thing that comes to the top of my head. Well that yeah, you're gonna I'm gonna give you an option. Oh, you're uh oh one or the other. Oh, either or okay. It's gonna be easy it's anything. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, sure. All right. You ready? All right. Okay. All right. I'm going to set my clock. I'm going to set my clock. And we're hopefully we get all the questions in. No timeouts. Yeah, there's no timeouts. Got it. We got to touch down to win. Okay. Okay. Ready ? I haven't been through this before. Okay, ready? Here we go. Pepsi or Coke? Coke. Pie or cake? Cake. Chocolate or vanilla. Ooh, chocolate . Ocean or lake? Ocean. Favorite sport to watch. Ooh, uh volleyball. College football or pro? College. Monday night, Sunday night, Thursday night. Monday night. Yes. Favorite sport to play? Oh, football all the way. Car or truck? Truck. Because you ain't fit in the car. Oh exactly. Rushing touchdown or passing touchdown Cheese pizza or pepperoni? Pepperoni. Steak or chicken? Steak. Do you call it pop or soda? Soda. Harder playing the game or calling a game? Calling. Baked potato or match two. Baked potato. City guy or country guy? Ooh, city. Right or left tackle? Left tackle. Chips ahoy or Oreos? Oreos. Yes. Pancakes or waffles? Ooh, pancake. Run out of time. Karaoke or guitar hero? Uh Guitar Hero. Hot Wings or barbecue Wings? Hot Wings. Warm weather, cold weather, vacation. Warm weather. Apps or dessert? Oh, dessert. Uh who paid you more money? Florida or the Steelers? Oh, we just ran out of time. Shoot! I wanted to get that one in and we ran out of time . We didn't quite do it. We just scored right before. Okay, with the way NIL is going, every kid's gonna answer college. No doubt about it. Joke about that. And now it's like very real. It it's so r I cause so on a flight over here, I was sitting with um a kid that just transferred from Alabama to Texas AM offensive lineman. We were talking about NIL. And he's like, kids are kids are turning down half a mil to play as an offensive lineman because they want 600,000. And they're leaving schools for that. I was like, I'm sorry, what? So do you realize you could have got me to sign for like five hundred dollars and a and a ham sandwich to come play at your university back then? How do you how do you coach? Because you can't discipline a kid because he's gonna just be like, you know what, I'm out of here. Yeah, exactly. Like I'm thinking about when we had to get up at like five o'clock in the morning, go run, do things. What are we doing? Now it's like you you know, hey, cu you know what? I'm I'm not I ain't I'm not. I I'm gonna roll over on my thousand count threadsheet yeah in my in in my own apartment by myself with my California King and my ninety inch TV. I'm not I'm not sure how I I mean I know we've talked about the show, I know we're kinda going off this, but like I don't know if it's the money that I don't think the money necessarily bothers me as much as the ability to just transfer whenever you want. Yeah. To just say, I don't like the way you look to me, I'm out of here. Like, yeah, it used to be what? If your coach left, um, they lost a program . Uh Willy Willie Cologne. Willie Cologne. R. I. P. Hostra. You know, if there's some sort of a a unique unique situation. Yeah. And it had to be it was very simple. Almost active goddish, right? Yes. Yeah. It has to be some. If you wanted to transfer, you had to go down a division or down, you know, and then you could come back up. Like they or you had to sit a year. City year, yes. Same level. There has to be some sort of transfer thing. Like if you want to say the money, because people are leaving to go get more money because they don't like like okay if you want to if if if Texas AM is offering me a ton of money to come there sure but you better you you're gonna have to sit out or you're gonna have to like there there has to be some sort of has to be a cooldown type of period. And then and then is that team really going to want them after that little like make someone called. Or you only get one. You only get one time, no harm, no foul, transfer, right? How do you do how do you do the money uh Monday night football where's my camera Monday football yeah uh Ben Roth esberger quarterback Miami University Ohio State Michigan Kent State Texas AM like you know you name all the go alleys Oh my goodness. I don't know. Yeah. It's it's tough. And and for me as a broadcaster, that that's what's tough for me for college because you already have a roster of 110 kids. Right. But then you you you can't watch last year's film yeah yeah yeah good point because the team you can literally turn over half of your roster yeah and a guy that I think is here is now here and oh yeah, but remember when the receiv I can't make reference to last year's game if I called the same exact game from a year ago. Right, right. Because different guys. None of the guys are are the same. And it's not like they were seniors. So I think that's one of the toughest things when I get year to year. Cause I'll remember a guy from another school and he's now at a new school. And it messes with your mind when you're going through the broadcast because you're not expecting that name to be right right what you're seeing. out there So it it it it it is a tough transition. No, I feel I feel like if you tax them on the transfer. Like hey you want a transfer, all right, then it's X X amount. Now you're gonna have schools that we paying that for them, I'm sure. Yeah. But then two, how long? I'm I'm always curious about this because it I feel like it happened so fast. But I always want to ask people who are tapped into the college space, like at what point in time, if it hasn't already, do you see it affecting the league and what do you think and how you think it will affect it. Well I think we're starting to see a little bit of that. Like guys holding out, scrubbing their social media accounts and hold the hold-ins and the holdouts are you know purposely going against like we're starting to see those kind of rumblings. And I think we haven't seen like a true like shutdown of it. Cause eventually that guy ends up getting moved, right? You know, and and they end up going somewhere else because they're not, but they're not going to get it from that team. So I think we kind of see a degree of it. Just the control's not there like in c like like there's control in place in the NFL where there isn't in college. And I think like you said, it's almost like a soccer, like like a European football type of transfer system where you know they're farm players and they sell them off and you have to pay that transfer tax to get those guys. Um so I mean I could see that model working but I think if we do a one one transfer rule on top of the five years period regardless of redshirt or whatever else the NCAA kind of passed that soft rule where you get five total years so there's not like six seventh years like like we have right now from COVID and all these exceptions. Make it five years, one transfer and just make a blanket rule. That would that would then create the equity that's necessary because it hurts your programs like if a Kent State or a Miami of Ohio has that type of year, and then school just comes in and poaches all of your best players. Yeah. It's like people are going to the Mac now as like a like you're like it's a feeder program. You don't go to the Mac for three or four years now. No. You're going there to basically like a juco. Yeah, it's unfortunate. It's competitive juco. And but that but that but that kills your programs. Like it kills a Boise State who gets into the playoffs and has that year, then boom, you know, guys are gone and coaches probably been poached too and you don't get to build. So if you created your own group of five championship along with a a division well you know tier one however you want to call it power four championship. If you can create that championship and have them backing behind it, that would be great. Or you just say, hey, every year a group of five champ is going to get that shot, get a legitimate shot, and that raises their value, but I can't poach that guy. Like you can't poach this one school because they have one good year. Right. They're poaching the quarterback. They're poaching the defensive edge rusher. And it changes your program's complexion. I also think it hurts like like the rivalry game. Oh yeah. Right? Like like you think about I know at Florida it was Florida State or Miami, right? Those are kind of the uh Georgia. Oh Georgia Georgia. Sorry, Georgia, I forgot Florida, Georgia. But like if you've been there, so say you're a kid that's been at Florida for two years, three years, you're you know, like when Miami played, it was Cincinnati for us. Our urinals had UC on them, it was beat UC on the walls, it was everything. If I'm there, busting my butt every year knowing that that's my game. And then you get a guy that transfers in one time, how do you expect him to have the same level of like disdain? Yeah. Like where's the are are you gonna go? Do you care as much about this game as I do? Ye.ah You know, so I just think there's that there's a lot of factors involved. Especially if, especially if you come from Arizona. Yeah. Transfer . Right? That's another thing. Like the regionality of it. Because I think the biggest thing we lost, we lost regionality in football when we started we got rid of the big east. Yeah. Right. And that kind of got separated between the big ten that he lost. Biggie's basketball's basketball. Biggie's basketball. Man, that I mean I use Thursday night Big E's football. That was a that was appointment watching. Like our offensive line would go to this Italian restaurant in Gainesville and that was our Thursday night like O-line dinner was watching Big E's football and watch it either Miami, West Virginia, I mean the Syracuse Pick games. Like we will watch that backyard brawl. And you know, you kind of lost that with that was the first shoe that fell. But then of course when the Pac-12 disbanded. Pac-12 been around for a hundred plus years at that point . And now when I see Cal Stanford playing Duke , stupid. What type of rivalry game is that right stupid you know what I'm saying or even when you see Oregon and Oregon and USC playing Ohio State and Michigan it's like yeah well we don't I don't care about this game yeah right so yeah I lost a lot of it in the regionality and then and then you add the transfer on top of that. It just it makes it a lot tougher. I mean, I know there's room for new rivalries and I I appreciate that. But something about the historical rivalries. Like if Bama Auburn never play ed again, I don't know how I I would be up truly upset. Yeah. Like Auburn said, you know what, we're going to the ACC. Mm-hmm. And you lose that game. That'd be crazy. I mean, especially in the college space. Like that's yeah, I mean that's, such a a major component of it. It is. And that and that's why I picked college over pro in that too, Minnetra. The pageantry and the rivalries. Yeah. Oh, I love college over. Yeah, I mean they're just unrivaled. I mean, I think the closest thing is our Baltimore Pittsburgh rivalry. That's the closest thing you do college atmosphere. There's no other two teams. I mean, a lot of people will probably argue Green Bay, Chicago. But even then, it doesn't I've I've done that game. I it doesn't feel the same. But Baltimore, Pittsburgh, that's the closest thing you get to a combat. Grandma moon me in Baltimore. Yes, on the on the on the drive. Yeah, on the drive to the stadium. There's some crazy stuff going on, but man , Max, I can't thank you enough for joining us, for being a part of this. Um, man, it kind of went all over the place, but that was awesome. That was so special to hear your stories, your knowledge. I knew it. I told Spence, I'm like, man, I feel like Max is gonna come up with some stuff. Like he's gonna know things. You like Charlie? Charlie remembers everything. Yeah. I can't remember a thing. But I remember being with you for a long time and really just, you know, how special it was being next to you in that locker room and um so tag team shuffleboard champs, by the way. See as well. We have it all. We have it all. We had it all. Um I appreciate the protecting me. I know my family thanks you for that. But the many, many laughs, the times together. So thank you for being a part of this. I really appreciate you. Appreciate your friendship and um really means a lot that you you could come here and and be a part of the show with us. I know the fans will will appreciate it and love it. So yeah, thank you for that. I really appreciate it. My pleasure, man. And like I said, you, you know thank. Like you said, I mean we grew up for we went from literally boys to men together. And we had a lot of fun times. We also learned a lot. Mm-hmm. You know, we had we had those brother brotherly moments. I mean, that's what kind of makes it all so special. like with us Like we had our brotherly moments. We had our arguments. We've had our moments where we've gone left and right, but we always came back to center. No doubt. And we always had each other's back, no matter where we were. And like I said, these are memories that'll last a lifetime. And you know, going through this and being being able to come here and like you said, go go see the kids upstairs and have those conversations with them. Like we were we were those young guys watching the other old guys have kids, and now we're the old guys with kids and now we're worried about threatening the neck the first boy that comes to the house. You know? No doubt. It's funny how it comes full circle. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. Well I appreciate you Max. You're you're great. I know Steeler Nation appreciates you for all your time on the field and now what you're doing you know calling the games and this that and the other so appreciate you um hopefully your prediction is right with the Steelers uh good luck uh yeah right so anyway uh thank you, football and family. Hope you really enjoyed it. Thank you, Giant Eagle, for the food. Thank you, Chef Evan, Spence, again, for all the work that you do. So uh look forward to seeing y'all next week, hopefully with another special guest. But um until next time, we'll see you