Reflecting on the Journey and Final Thoughts

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This is a commercial message brought to you by GoFundMe. For the love of rugby, it's gone on a road trip to Bilbao to witness the InvestState Champions Cup final between Bordeaux and Leinster. We're starting here in Cardiff, where Bordeaux beat Northampton in the 2025 final in the stadium just behind us. Ben, we've only got five days to get from here in Cardiff to Bilbao in our famous pink Jacob. Five days, why does it fly? Well no, because the whole continent of food and drink to explore and if we film it we can say it's work. Alright, I'm in. We've got a ferry to catch. Let's swing in to see Jamie George along the way. He of course won the Investig Champions Cup three times and hear what he's got to say. Yeah, so we've got rugby, food, drink. Sounds like great fun. We've shown the drive in. I'll start. Let's go. Let's go. Perfect. The road to Bilbao is taking us across four rugby playing nations. Day one, we travel to St. Albans to see Jamie George for a long over due catch-up. Before driving to Paris to test our nerve on the infamous Parisian streets and finishing the day in fac ade. Day two is a big one for me then. I'm keen to stop off in Lemour and see the 24 hour race circuit and hopefully set some lap times. From there we'll head to La Rochelle. Well, day three is the one I'm most looking forward to. We head to Bordeaux, where the only activity on my agenda is wine. Lots and lots. of wine And our final day, from Bordeaux to Bilbao, features sand dunes, coastal coffee shops and a spot of surfing in San Sebastian. Before we reach San Mames Stadium in Bilbao, enter the Investtech Champions Cup final. It's safe to say this is gonna be the ultimate rugby road trip. On the Le Mon thing, you're actually a petrol head. In fact, no, you're a petrol super hybrid head these days. I am Ben. Well done. Uh yes Ben. Uh before those rugby, I used to love cars. Uh was dad bullied me into it, Formula One, I was Nigel Mansell, he was out in the centre, Damon Hill, those kind of guys. But Lemour, yes, 24 hours. Watch Stephen Queen movie in from the 70s? No, I haven't no. I have. Yes, that's where we're going there. You'll get built for a trace. Right, you keep that fueled up. I'll keep us fueled up with snacks. Right then. Well see seats adjusting. Comfort access. Boom. I've been a get to the old apple CarPlay up. So not what we're doing. Right, no. Tension across one? Not not just yet, but well done. Put that there. No you can't put that there, mate. That's my wireless charging spot, it's just there. Just trying to Oi. How romantic of me. Well, yeah, two glasses. Real real crystal, that as well. I went all out and got us a bottle of rouge, Rioca of course. Of course. Given the fact that we end up in Spain. And so we'll crack that open once our journey should be. We should. We can cruise out of here under electric power, mate, or we can Do you want to share a turitza with me? We're gonna have to can I just I'm just gonna sort the car out, mate. I'm just gonna you do that. And then I'll you sort that. Get yourself comfy. We can go. Hello Jayku. Hello. Can you open the sunroof please ? Okay . That's impressive. Um hello Jacob. Fresh enough. Can you use the ejector seat on the passenger please? Phones connected, snacks are done, we're going. St. Albans, here we come baby . Definitely run over something there . Right, we're off. And just like that, we were finally on the road to B Billilbao. Next stop, Jamie George's house. No, no, no, no. Next stop is the car wash. I'm not showing up at the home of the player who is close to overtaking us with England caps without a fresh buff on the car . Right, audio listeners. We have just pulled into a car wash in St. Albans. So if you hear some funny noises and some rumbling, do not panic. That is just St. Albans. And if you're watching this on uh video, we've been joined by a strange man in the back. That's the producer Archie. Um he just wants to be part of it and say hello to his mum. He does. Now we prove to his mum that basically is actually part of this team and not just a random fella. Correct. Yeah, we didn't pick someone up on the way from Cardiff to here. Hi mum. And we also need a clean car because there is a chance. How many caps are you on? So Jamie is on a hundred and ten England caps. You are on 118. And you're on 127. And when I say we're on, as as we s when I say we're on, we're staying there. We're not getting any more problems. I should say we finished on one eighteen and one twenty seven. He's announced his retirement tour. So ideally, by the time he's retired, he will have beaten us both for England caps. Then he will become the men's most capped England player of all time. So we can't turn up without a We need a clean car. We need it we need it dazzling. We do. Catch up with Jamie. Hear all about the Invested Champions Cup. Hear all about him, what's going on, and then from there, mate, we've got a ferry to catch. We do. And we need to steal his medals. You just track he's got three, so we might not miss them all. Do you know what? We should actually ask if you didn't mind uh that we should dangle the medals from the uh rear view mirror. We can have all three just you know, the entire journey. Just to re inforce that we were crap and he was really good. Yeah, just to reinfor ce that we never won it. Right. We're driving in. We the snacks didn't last long, did they? Well you ate them before we even got in there, mate. Forward, forward, forward, turned out Cardiff St. Albans longer than I thought. Forward and I was hungrier than I thought. Turn the horny blowers off. Enjoy this. Oh my wipers come off. Turn the wipers off. Uh buff. In terms of trips, Coltly, you know, we we got some we had some great tours. Lions , England tours, Leicester trips, Leicester preseason trips. Yeah. But when it's all said and done, I'd say that I am most excited about this trip. I'm looking forward to it as well, Ben. Because normally when we go on trips we don't actually get to see anything or do you might go out for a coffee don't you? But literally you don't actually see anywhere. So um yeah I'm looking forward to it. And uh it makes you think some of the trips we've had. I remember going to Australia with you in twenty ten and um people were getting stuck into you and then you basically said uh oh KBA And we were like, what KBA? It's like, yeah, it can't be asked. Um and that's that started the whole uh stuff Ben said book, didn't it? So that's a that was that trip. Um That's not a hail storm by the way, that's not a hail storm, that is uh the car wash, just so that everyone knows we're getting cleaned. Oh there was a trip I I w wentent on. with the Saxons to Ireland and um it was a bit of a the trip was basically I think we trained in London all week. We're supposed to fly it was snow and ice so we couldn't have so we got delayed till Friday morning. Then we got on the plane and to get off the plane. We couldn't take off because the i it was all iced over. So we sat on the runway there for like three hours. We then ended up flying to Belfast. And then we sat there for an hour. We then flew to Dublin. By the time we got to Dublin, it was about three o'clock and basically everyone was shattered and it was like right, whatever you do, don't go into your rooms and don't fall asleep. So everyone fell asleep. We had a pretty match meal, we then got to the game, they've played Donny Brook, and basically um the pitch started to frost over in the warm-up, and they had a really good team out there. Basically, what ended up being because this must have been 2008, 2009, they ended up being like the island team that took them through. So we all um had no interest in playing. So thankfully, we did the warm-up and basically just full hut with all Kevin for the warm up and we're like someone's sets back a bit frosty. Remember, I think Will Skinner was the Quinn's back row, he was like captain, he's like, if you wanna play, stand on this side, if you wanna don't stand on that side. Did he actually do that? Right, everyone on the left. Everyone's like, uh what do we do? What did everyone do? Um people were sort of slow to it was basically one of those ones where you like turn around and just put your gum shield in and like uh we'll see where this goes. The right thing to do is to stand as I want to play. Yeah, but equally everyone's high. Yeah. So I'm not sure about it. David Wilson was uh the Newcastle bathrob . He decided to but basically in the change room the toilets were through uh not through a door but through an archway and the hug of the England flag in front of this archway, uh David Wilson at the point, I remember it really well because I was looking over this serious point's going about whether you can play the game. David Wilson decides to do like a standing glute stretch where you put your sort of um ankle over your knee and as he's left back, you're thinking that the the flag is a war . He's literally decked it and gone through the flag . And everyone's seen this but no one can laugh 'cause it's like so so that happened. Uh we then didn't play the game and we got straight on the bus and basically went out in Dublin. So uh yeah, it was uh it turned out to be not a bad tool. That sound that sounds like a decent trip. Yeah, it was a it was a good uh rugby-wise not so great. That story. Yeah. We'll take that. Yeah. This one feels like a rugby trip without any of the commitments of training or playing. Exactly. Basically. That's what we're gonna be doing. You need to fall over, you need to go for a a uh flag at some point. Jamie's only sort of ten minutes from here, so I should probably tell him to get a flat white ready. Yeah, get two of them, preferably. Get uh yeah, get two flat whites ready. We're coming in red hot . And we should actually, thinking about the medals situation, take the medals, hold them to ransom, and he can only have them back as long as long as he doesn't overtake either of us. He can overtake me, just like you. If we lose, we can't lose both. So maybe we need this more than you, Jamie. The World Cup final. Sorry, Jamie. Equon caps with Ben, but he could play, but uh sorry, no he can't play. He's not allowed to play the final. I'm glad the pink for love of rugby wrapping has held up. It survived the car wash. It has survived the car wash. I think it survived. If anything, it looks it looks pristine. Yeah, it looks great. Right, Coley. We are clean. We've gone from Cardiff, St. Albans. Let's swing and see Jamie George. Then we need to catch this ferry, mate. As one sheep said to the other, let's get the flock out of here . Alright, better clean this up. Lenny had one request. Find the medals. It'll be the closest he gets to one of these bad boys . Go ahead! Oh thanks, bud. Thanks, mate. Come on in. Thank you . Oh, these for ransom . Jamie George, thank you for having us. You're very welcome. Thank you. Well we left Cardiff, we've got a ferry to catch, and I thought, I've got to see you, mate. I said to Coley, we're we're swinging in to St Albans because you won the Investig Champions Cup three times. It's it's a bit out of the way. We tried to go like we thought, oh where which team in South West London may or then won anything? So we had to go north. North a bit yeah yeah smart yeah it's geographical like great to see you lads great see you well thanks you're always welcome thank you mate thanks thanks for having us um yeah we haven't got ages because we actually have got a ferry to catch we have as as we make our way to Bilbo don't like talking about it so Yeah, like yeah, you haven't spoken about it at all. We did waste about 10 minutes getting the car wash to make it look nice and sharp because we thought your medals would be nice and polished. So yeah, we'll take the end of the yeah. Um thanks for finding them by the way. So audio listeners, just to set the scene here, obviously in Jinx's kitchen, Jinx's Jamie George, in case you haven't worked that one out, uh, we've got two of the winners' medals. The old man's got the third, I hope. I hope. These would have been stuck in the loft. However, I was like, if you could find them, that'd be great. Yeah. So you got the two winners and uh the runners up, which uh was against the Toulon team, the Galacticos of that era. So actually you've played in four Invested Champions Cup finals . Mega. That's pretty mega to be fair. Yeah, it's really cool. Like w we went on a bit of a run, didn't we, for like the twenty fourteen one was a little bit of an anomaly. I think we like in terms of our team at that time , we probably weren't good enough to make the final if I'm completely honest, but like, you know, we we did you know that was Steve's second last game, he tore his peck off the bone and still played. He had his he we strapped him like this. Just to watch that . Yes, all your listeners. That is um Jamie's just got his arm above his head basically. Is what he's referring to. That's Steve Borfwick's. Steve Borthwick played out uh peck off the bone and he's strapped his arm like that, which is front jumper line out, arms up ready to go. It's quite hard to throw to, button. Fair play to him. Yeah. The Glatgos, uh it's worth mentioning this team. And when we talked about the Glatzko, that is of course the two long team. And just to give people a little bit of a flavor which was in that team, that was Bastro, Drew Mitchell, Matt Gitto, uh Brian Habana, Johnny Wilkinson, uh Stefan Armitage, uh Fernandez Lobby, Johan Smith, Darny Russell , Carl Heyman, Carl Heyman . And Shockey. Shockey. Craig Burden. Craig Burden was their best. Safknooker. Freak. Yeah. But like not really well renowned. Uh well known. On the bench, Ali Williams, Catherine Castro Giovanni. Clar mos. Clarsons. Michael Carson. They they were they were so good . I remember like I was on the bench that day and I remember watching it being like, this is ridiculous. Like and we and we actually played all right and we got pumped. Like you know, it's one of those days where you're just like, this is like it's a bit like going to Bordeaux or Toulouse at the minute. You're like, let's hope to play well, but we know realistically it's probably not gonna go our way. Do you reckon that loss helped were you in the journey for the you said it's but probably too early for that team in some regards. Would that helped you in the journey for the next you obviously won three? I mean looking back it's easy to say you win three. You lost one at T jump nicely, but was there much did it show the quality of that team what you needed to be ? A hundred percent We looked at the Toulon team and we were like, there's levels now. Ye ah. You know, and we and I like I say we were lucky, like we worked really hard, we played really well, like we did all right in 2014, but like there was levels to the game. We had good players, but we didn't have many world-class players at that time. And then you look ahead like sixteen, seventeen, nineteen . We like we had people you argue would get into the world fifteen, I'd say. So like I think it was a bit of a light bulb moment for all of us, like, right, we need to get our get our stuff in order if we want to achieve what we want to achieve because we hadn't really won the we'd only won the Prem once before before that also we won it in two thousand and eleven. But then like you know so we and we lost the final the the week after actually we lost the Prem final to Northampton. Uh yeah, we lost an extra time. So you lost two finals to the two on two two and two weeks. Well let's talk, let's talk, we don't let's let's talk about the good stuff, right? We'd acknowledge the lacticos and comment below um genuinely about that team. Are they the greatest team to have ever played in the Investigate Champions Cup? Um We had them on our Dynasty team, didn't we? We did a Dynasty episode, I think, to Lom were were they the best ever team we we had had? I think them in as uh as the club once, yeah we did. Uh Sari's also in that. Yeah, I think our twenty nineteen team against that twenty fourteen team. That would be and see and see what like it like head to head it would be it'd be very interesting. Be a hell of a game. But you won it three times in four seasons. Tell us like the occasion, the build-up, and if we compare that to a prem to the Invested Champions Cup, is there a difference? Do you sense there's a difference? Is it the pinnacle? It's the pinnacle in club rugby, yeah. Without doubt. It's very different. It's the closest, as you guys know, like it's the closest thing to test rugby you're gonna get. Um I think the knockout element of it, you know, is different to the Prem. Obviously like Prem finals are big occasions, Prem semi finals are big occasions. But the it's just a different feel. The way that it's refereed, I think is interesting. It makes it different . Um, but coming up like you know, we played against European Giants and we who do we beat? We beat Racing, Claremont, and Leinster. Like there's some good teams that we were playing against, and we played in three really good finals, actually. Like, they were all very, very good games. But actually in terms of the build up to it, like we felt like you know, we felt confident that we were gonna go and do it and it and it probably rel needed twenty fourteen to allow us to realise how good we could be. And I think it was in seventeen we went away to Toulon and beat them away with a pretty good team that they had that day. And then we were like, right, okay, we're probably not far away from doing this now. So we had a lot of belief going into it for sure. Do you have a favorite victory? Favourite final? Just to just to paint the picture, you beat Racing in Lyon twenty-one nine in twenty sixteen. You then beat Clermont in twenty seventeen. Uh that was twenty-eight-seventeen and then you won in twenty eighteen nineteen season defeating uh defending champions Leinster twenty points to ten in the final. So out of those three, do you have a favourite I think Leinster ? I think Leinster because twenty nineteen was I think it was the best team we had. And Lenst like if you looked at the way that the game panned out, we were ten nil down. Both starting props had gone off, Mako torn his hamstring off the bone, uh Titi Lamasatelli, our starting tight head was I can't remember ankle. He had a stitch. The only man to pull out with a stitch. Um but it was just like we were sort of backs against the wall and then I actually thought that like the way that we came back, the way that we played, the way that we ground out a win was sort of defining of Sarys of that era really. So yeah, I'd say 2019. Tell us about the moments after the final whistle, because one team at this weekend, right, is either gonna be just on cloud nine to another team that's just devastated. You've you've experienced both sides of it. We want to hear about the the good side. Like when that whistle goes, what is that feeling? It's like the most surreal thing ever. Because like you grow up watching it, do you know what I mean? It's like similar as you guys, you know, like lion's tours, things like that, like playing in big games for England, like but when you win, like first of all, you've worked so hard. Everything that you worked hard for, you feel like it's all come down to this moment, and like you then realize the sacrifices that you make, the fac sacrifices that your family make, everyone in the stands, how much it means to people, like that's the best bit about it. So then, you know, you then get up and you celebrate and you drink for three days and like, you know, we've like some of the best times of my life have been celebrating those victories. They were like unbelievable. Was it Alex Good who wore his kit for the three days? Yeah, that was 2019. Yeah. Like, yeah. Like it's yeah, yeah. He went hard that day. But I am a bit gutted about the amount of press he had . It's like there were people like I'd like to put throw my hand into the like there were loads of people that went a lot harder than he did, but because he wore kit, he got the who went harder? Um well like the after all these finals, it's quite funny. We uh Twitter or X um like Twitter back in the day was obviously quite big and we would always tweet um George Cruz's house address and say like great we're after party at like I can't remember what the house was in Sue on like the Sunday and then genuinely we had some bloke rock up with like a six pack of beers we're like we joking, mate. Shut up. It was brilliant. I actually saw a I saw a clip thing of George Cruz the other day. There was a clip put up and it was someone scoring against Saracens and you just came out of the twenty nineteen final. Cheers, cheers, cruiser . It was the restart. It was like, I love stuff like this. It was, yeah, can you imagine can you imagine, right? Restart, like best you imagine the talk before the game. Let's do the double. Like, this is huge. Playing against Exeter, like right, let's go. Restart, kicking to Cruiser, Cruz goes through Cruiser's hounds, bounce into Exeter. They go and score like the fastest trying to final ever. We're like that under the post. We're all cracking up laughing. We're all like cheers,, mate what am I good stuff? No, no . I love that you would tweet his address . That is so good. Um any other like Richard Barrington, of course, he is very well known for the social aspect of it. Yeah, like and he used to do this remix thing. So he I don't know how which year it started, it might have been with a prem , but he basically would do a remix of songs and shout remix in the middle of it and like it was all sing along songs with a trophy in the middle, throwing champagne over it. It was brilliant. He he was outstanding. Duncan Taylor, always right up there. Billy often was right up there before and after he was drinking. Um I've got some funny videos of us like um because the best of it about this, right, like I look at um Bordeaux or Toulon uh Toulouse or Toulon when they win it and the whole hundreds of thousands of people line the stre ets. We would go to like St. Albans on a Sunday with the European and Prem trophy and we'd have it in a pub like this. Like set outside. Most Sundays are like the best days ever, right? And you'd they'd be parked up at the table. And then you just get like random people coming over being like What's this lad? We've done the double and they're like, all right, yeah, like, what is it like is it like the Champions League? We were like, it's sort of s yeah, it's exactly the same as the Champions League. They're like like, all right, sweet uh think you're off St. Albans FC or something. Yeah. Honestly, no one cares. No one cares. You know that like um Delia Smith, like, where are you? I've got a video of that of me doing this with the like a European trophy going down St. Albans High Street Do do you look at those French scenes now and does it almost do you look at that though, Jamie and and think oh would have been nice a little spell I would have loved that a spell in France. Uh spell in France or even just that if if if it was treated the same as what they do over here. Like the the level that they get. I look at the Bordeaux games that as you lads were there the other day. Like, it's a joke, isn't it? Unbelievable. Imagine I like and then like I do media and people ask me why Tom Willis is going to Bordeaux. I'm like because of that Do you know what I mean? Drink really nice wine, play amazing rugby for the best team in Europe and like oh yeah, I wonder why he's going. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? The best supported club in the world. Like it's yeah, like there's so much good about what French rugby is at the minute. So um we don't quite have that level here, but it was quite funny. Looking ahead this weekend though, Jinx, Saracen's got to last sixteen, but you beat Toulouse on your way to uh getting into last sixteen. You've obviously watched a lot of rugby going on. How do you see the final going at the weekend? I don't see anyone beating Bordeaux. To be honest. Like I think Leinster are very, very good. They're very well coached, unbelievable players. But like I just think like Bordeaux is so funny. Like, how good must he be playing for Bordeaux or France? Knowing that as soon as you turn the ball over , you could kick it down the left-hand wing and know that Biel Barry's gonna score. Like it's just like it's a complete cheat code. It's unbelievable. And they play they play amazing rugby. Like, if Bordeaux show up, I don't see it being a contest , but like hopefully it is. Do you think that part of they've almost got the perfect complement of that French like loose jalla bear Luku pulling the strings? Then you have exactly right LBB that just any turnovers. We always know about playing against French teams, like turnovers can kill you. It's even more like heightened with him and Penno and their ability. But then you if they need to mix it, they have a ginormous pack as well. So it's almost like they've got the all-court game. It's like when you'd preview them, you'd always watch them and go, Okay, how do we how do we break this team down or how do we exploit them? Actually, it's really hard looking at them to go, how do we exploit them? And especially like Leinster in the way they blitz defence and at times it can work and at times I I I look at it from this weekend and think they could get exposed, although they're trying to cut you down time pressure, Bordeaux get an offload, they get in behind you and then the speeder ball doesn't stop and it's very hard then to to almost stop that momentum. I do think if there's one team that could do it, like blitz hammer defense, whatever you call it, like it's probably you've got to go all or nothing against a team like Bordeaux. Because if you try and just mix it with them, like they are bigger, more powerful, more dominant. So actually if if you just go out like and that's like if anyone if anyone can do it, it would be Lencer, I reckon. So like hopefully it's a brilliant final. I think it will be. We spoke to we had a catch up with Mac Hanson, by the way. What a boy. Legend. Um you can obviously watch that episode, it's available already. And he was saying about Dan Sheehan, actually. Uh he was mentioning him and and what a great guy on the on the on the booze he is, but not as good as his old man apparently Barry apparently is an absolute animal. Yeah, I've I've had with him on the book. Have you had a beer with Barry? Yeah, he's good ladies. Um but someone like you look at um the pack that Lens to have, how important is it like so Doris, Sheehan, and all those guys to to produce a a performance, McCarthy. Like you guys know in finals, but you know, I I remember these finals and remember thinking like so 2016 in particular, it was pouring down with rain. Like we were playing Racing, who had Carter and all these like freaks . And I remember thinking like Galacticos again. But actually, like that was where Faz came into his own. Do you know what I mean? And like Wiggy on a wet day, in fairness to him, like just completely managed to get and you need people to step up and like you know, Leinster have so many players who have done a lot of amazing things, but big players on the big occasion, like that's where you see the difference between world class and like international players. And like so Doris, she and two of them right up there. And they'll need them. They like they sh will be feeling a shed load of pressure to to be at their best because they're gonna need to be. You've toured on the Lions with low lens players. Did you learn much about them when you're out there and the way they sort of prepare for rugby and the way they go about their business. Yeah. Well 'cause we've seen Leo Cullen's come out as it and he's been pretty public that he feels that like as soon as Leinster fail or mess up the like the the the knives are out and they're like they're almost heightened by that. Like you obviously played with those guys, you know them, you played against them a lot of times, but you toured with them as well. Like, are they sort of a bit of a closed books from the outside? It looks like they just go about their business and they kind of, you know, they they're aware that they get the heat and but they they don't they don't care. They don't care about the noise, I will say that. Like they are diligent, those Lens the lads, they are very by the book, they need to know their plays, they walk through it, they're like the level of detail is extraordinary, actually, in terms of their attacking shape, where they need to be, their maps, you know, all that stuff. That was one thing that I took, and I was like, wow, like these guys prep, and every single one of them. And it's true, it's clearly drilled into them from a young age. Like the Leinster Academy boys will be doing the same thing. And they take that up. Like, you know, I'm I'm not one to be spending hours in front of the computer. But like those guys without fail, you walk into the team room, they'll be there. Yeah, well you can see like the way that Gibson Park plays and those certain personnel mate without a doubt and actually Luku versus Gibson Park this weekend is gonna be awesome. I will say there's you could do hours of video footage but you've still got to stop Big Ben from five metres out. Yeah. Yeah all the best yeah. Mate's on a hot streak. If Big Ben Tamiya Funa scores this weekend that's four on the bounce. Is it really? Yeah last sixteen quarter final semi-final he should score. Like if I was that big and that athletic, I would hope to score. Do you know what do you know what the world rugby is? You know what we need is a a Ben Tamyafuna carry with a Will Skeleton latch? That will never happen unless possible you know, either of them change clubs, but can can you you imagine they'll score from ten out? Yeah, yeah. It's impossible. It's impossible. Um tell you what else is impossible is to probably get a score prediction right. However, I'm gonna ask you anyway. Jinx, score prediction for the weekend, Leinster versus Borde aux. 206 -1 3 . Bordeaux. Nice. Jamie. Thank you, mate. Thank you. We've got a ferry to catch. Let's go. Let's go . Right, first things first Coley . Manage to do that. Oi, give him back . Fair play. Alright. Thanks, mate. See ya buddy. Well we didn't manage to commode Jamie's medals But it was back on the road with our sights set on Paris for the first proper stop of our tour. A quick ferry, then a few hours of easy driving before we were hit with a stark realization. To get to our hotel, by the way, we've got to go over the uh Arc de Triomphe or around the Arc de Triomphe. You do realize that he's renowned for being chaotic. Yeah. Um yeah, no, I did see on the route we were going around there. Um I suppose it at least is it's a bucket list. Is that genuine? I don't know if it's old rumour, isn't that it you supp'reosed to be 'cause it's madness and everyone just comes on and pulls on and pulls off and just does what they want, so we'll find out, won't we? Yeah, well, we will, yeah. I think the um at the very least, mate , it will test whether you've adapted to French driving. Well, I think I'm not doing a bad job because it's not . I'd say Parisian driving has been the worst. If this does, you know, I'd like to when this goes out, I'd like to ask in the comments section. Yeah. Is it Parisian driving? Yeah. Anyone who's experienced driving driving Paris. Is is it just us? Because we've nearly been T-bowing about four. The ro the motorways are great. No one's on them. They're em they're free. But as soon as you get to Paris and people are going from the third lane across the front of you to turn left and it's like you're not supposed to be in that lane. Are you uh are you nervous, Coley, 'cause the Arc de Triomphe is not only a beautiful building, would you call it a building? Monument Monument, yeah. It's a beautiful monument. You feeling right? He's dark there. Yeah, brilliant. Hang on, he's suddenly no he starts right floor a bit. Yeah. People should make way for the Jacob. They've just stopped. Inside lane, inside lane. Oh my gosh. That one's best. Someone's beeping us. Down here? Yeah. That one. We're going straight on. No, you that one. Well then we don't that one, because that one's that's the same as this one. No, it's not, that's the one you wanted. No bit then. You've missed it now. No bit, so you want to go the other side. I knew I I I knew I I would have been a better drive over. Just go straight over. Doing this here. It's coming up again by the way. This one is that. No, not that one, the next one. This one. Yeah, you start making your way across. Start making your way across. Uh yeah,, this this is is it. it Oh well done. That was the turning you're meant to take Cole. These Paris drivers take no prisoners. But I love these pedestrians that are going to be on a what's it the teacups when you go around and around. That's what I feel like right now because you just keep going around. Yeah, I know, yeah. Well I'm getting in the room. Are you do are we going around we gotta get to the hotel at some point? Are we just going around until everyone's right. We actually just need to get off at this day, so get off and then we'll figure it out because where do you want to get off just anything because at some point it will lead to the hotel and I am ready for a after a long day of travel collie probably ready for a glass of wine Changes in sexual performance are more common than most people realize, and support doesn't need to feel awkward. With MedExpress, everything happens privately online. Start by completing a short consultation reviewed by UK Registered clinicians. If eligible, treatment is delivered discreetly to your home, with ongoing support whenever you need it. You're not alone in this. Visit medexpress.co.uk slash podcast to learn more . It was pretty obvious that Jinx was back in Bordeaux. He felt that they're very much the uh the favourites for the finalists. We need a bit of balance. And we need a bit of balance. So I thought, you know, being the rugby community that it is, I'll uh You've had a long look through your book of contacts. Correct, and I thought I'd get a Lenster opinion. Right, you've got to guess so it is. Okay, Ryan. Is it Brian Driscoll? Uh it's not it's not Bod. Okay. It's not Bod. He made his debut in 2006. At similar times what we did, right, yeah. Correct. And he retired in 202 2 . Uh right , yeah. He was a one club man. Right. So during that professional career he only played for Leinster. Yeah. So we've got a real good view from a Leinster perspective now. Okay. He made 2 80 appearances by the way. Yeah. And not only that, he won the Investic Champions Cup four times. Okay, so Len's the legend. He won it in 2009. Yeah. 2011 2012 and 2018 Good innings that so who do you think that might be? Um is he really tall. He is he is ginormous. I think I know it is, Ben. Who is it? Is it Big Dev Toner? It is the one and only Big Dev Toner. His name's Devin Toner, but you can't call him Devin . Well, yeah, it's got to be Dev, Big dev, huge dev, tall dev, massive dev, good lad dev. We need to speak to big dev. Dev the goat. Dev the goat. Think he's gonna pick up. Here he is. Dev, how you doing, mate? How's retirement treating you? Ben, what's going on? Yeah, not too bad. Not too bad. Um should be working, but decided to chat to you. You've uh you got the right idea there. Do you do you miss the game at all? Do you miss it? Do I miss the game? I do, mainly. So like I th that was one of the questions that people ask me most when when I finish up, do you miss it? And like generally I would have said no, not really. I done it, I did it for seventeen years. Um but it's getting to this stage of Europe with the big games, the big games in the Six Nations, big games in Europe, it's it's then when you kinda look back on on the on the on your good days and you kinda you kinda m you you miss the the big the big occasions like this. Yeah, absolut ely. For the listeners and viewers that don't know, Dev, you actually won the Vesta Champion Cup four times. Last time being in Bilbao. We're on our way there now. A, how did you celebrate? And B, have you got any good spots for us to go to? I think we just got on the plane and went home that night. Yeah. We uh because usually we had we had we had a we had a plane chartered, so we um I think we won and went straight to the airport afterwards, and then we would have um went back home and had a bit of a celebration in Dublin afterwards in the in the I think it was in in the in the intracontinental hotel in Dublin there. I'll I'll be honest with you, Dev, that that does sound a bit of a shit celebration given you just won the Investic Champions Cup. Yeah. But it I I've won so many of them I can't really remember. Uh uh like in that twenty eighteen season for us, it was uh it was it was uh it was a season as a whole that was j that was was just brilliant. I think we went I don't know how many games unbeaten. I think we were unbeaten in the in the Champions Cup and then like even for Ireland we had the Grand Slam and then we went on tour to Australia and we and then we won a we won a we won the tour down Australia and then we did the double with Lancer, so we did the Europe and we did the league as well. So 2018 as a whole, when I look back on my career, it was that's one of my favourite years I've ever played. And it's kind of meant more for me in Europe as wise because that was my fourth final, but it was I was I had three bench spots for the previous three. Do you know what I mean so this was the kind of my first year starting so I kind of felt like I really contributed more to the year and was able to contribute more to the team and and and be more of a leader. I was kind of older so that was the kind of one the that one that went meant the most to me um so the the the entire year was was was was brilliant like you're right to be fair 2018 was not only an amazing season for Leinster but of course the national team you beat uh Racing that year fifteen twelve in front of fifty-two thousand fans. So what do you remember about that game? Do you know what I I was I was trying to remember about the game and it's actually not a very memorable game because there was no tri-scored. And even I I was actually um bumped into Luke McGrath outside the shops the other day and I said, Do you remember Bretton from the twenty eighteen final? And he and he was like, There's because there's no try scored, it's only about the penalties really, and you can't really un remember But what what I tell what I can remember was I remember we were lining up in the tunnel to go out and you we looked across to the Rassing lads and they were all wearing berets . You know the French beret as you're walking out, and I remember I was coming up against Duncan Orion in the second row, and I was thinking to myself, this big lump from Tipper ary, big white lump from Tipper ary wearing a beret going onto the field. I'm just wondering what I think Johnny he tweaked his groin or something so he so he so uh Esa took over the the kicking duties and he he was able to get the winner and I don't I don't think we we weren't winning for much of the game and then we kinda pulled pulled pulled ahead in in in in the last five minutes I think it was. And then the the memorable thing was the was the the uh the the charge down uh of the of of them trying to get a drop goal at the end. So w when we saw that went wide everyone just kind of started celebrating and realising that we did it uh and uh all the all the hard work paid off. That is uh I mean how French is that with the berets? You you literally you are setting yourself up for a fail there. Takes inside the Lens team at the minute. There seems to be a lot of heat in the media and there seems a bit of pushback, especially from Leo Cullen. And um yes, take us give us a bit of a insight into the mindset of where Linster at at the minute. Um is it a different mindset? I'm not sure if it's a different mindset, but it's um like uh from from my point of view, I I can see obviously the the team over the years we haven't won any finals obviously since twenty eighteen. Well to your European finals since twenty eighteen, and I think obviously you've fallen at the at the final hurdle um and Leo has got a lot of stick for it and the team has got a lot of stick for it, but but when I'm looking at it from the outside, I'm like, what other team is getting to that many European finals. Do you know? Not and and they're not getting stick for it. It's just because we're we're we're we're we're we're losing to a very good team. So obviously it was Toulouse uh once and then it was it was it was La Rochelle twice and obviously it was Saracens for for for us as well, but it was there's no other team getting that many finals and and we're still getting stick for it, you know. But in terms of the of of of this year, I think um like losing that many finals will hurt, obviously. Um, and a lot of that team haven't weren't in that 2018 team and don't know anything about winning. So, like it's kind of once you get over that hump, uh they might be able to kick on and get a few get a few more, but a lot of them know the disappointment of losing as well. And that's and that's and that's huge in any people and any any young fella's career. To be able to like y you learn m most of what you know from what you uh f from your from from your losses you know so I think that's uh built a lot of them and built a lot of their psyche and look it's gonna be a huge task for them as well. Like obviously uh they're coming up against an unbelievable team that are that are playing unbelievable rugby and and I think we're obviously underdogs so it's um it they're they're it's it's gonna be it's gonna be a cracker of a game, I'll tell you that. Well we went to Bordeaux very recently, and they are they are quite an amazing outfit. So from your perspective, how does Leinster go about stopping LBB, Penno, Jalaber, Luku, and of course super impact sub big Ben Tamyafuna. Oh part of me was gonna say keep it tight and and and and and and keep it in the pack and and and maul it and like kind of become be physical, but then you've got t Tamuf una and the size of their pack as well and they're it they've got threats everywhere, you know. But but I think it is about when Lencer are good, it's it's it's when they get over the gain line and Gemmo is getting the ball out as quick as he can and it's just speed. Do you know what uh it was it was uh it was when when Stuart Lancaster was with us, it was all about work rate, work rate, work rate. What are you doing behind the ball, what how are you getting onto it. And it's it and it's be it's been able to get those really quick rooks and been able to just get over the gain line. I think that's when Lencer are at their best. Um so I think we just need to be able to do that. And obviously negate LBB he's he's obviously an unbelievable player but how you do that I d I I I I don't know I think we need uh some of the leaders in the team to step up um and I said a lot of those leaders in the team haven't won uh a European finally and I think they they th they they want to uh to show to show that they can do it. They've obviously shown that they can do it for Ireland, but I think they need to be able to step up and and and show that they can do it for Leinster as well Let's also not forget Leinster are absolutely stacked, full of internationals, and there's no doubt on their day they can bring it. So where are you watching the game? Are you at Bilbao? Are you at home? Are you you you getting the old the old band back together from twenty eighteen and having a few pints. What are you doing? Uh I would love to be going. I'll be ho watching at a pint at home. Uh if there's any corporate gigs out there, you know, g g give me a call. I'll be first on the flight. Uh but yeah, no, I'll be I I''llll I'll be joining it from uh from uh fr from from from a stool in the pub I think. And uh I might put a jersey on, you never know. Um before you go, can you give us a quick prediction on what you think the score's gonna be and also how the game's actually gonna be played Go fifteen twelve, no. Fifteen twelve like our game in a Drastic club. I think there will be I think I I I think there will be tries scored. I think there'll be a lot of tries scored to be honest. Um I'm gonna I I I I am gonna go Lancer win. I'm gonna go I'm gonna go thirty-two thirty-two twenty-six um thirty-two twenty-six. Thirty-two twenty six. I'm gonna yeah, I'm gonna go uh don I'm gonna get I'm gonna I g I want James Ryan to score a try and want Calen Dorris to score a try as well. Calen Dorris scoring five metres out from a tap penalty. I can see that to be fair. Uh they do run a variety of tap plays , very smooth, very slick, and he knows his way to Shayline. So yeah, I I can see that happening. No, it's gonna be an exciting game, but I can't I actually can't wait for it to be honest. Um and for kind of the players like Luke McGrath's leaving and he's going um he he he''ss off your France next year as well so I'd love to see climate players like him being able to uh um obviously win again and and a couple of lads who as I said have lost finals to get to see them finally getting over the line um would w would be brilliant . Like for just for the confidence of of the likes for for say a Tommy O'Brien um or or a Jimmy O'Brien even like and come of the the young lads who haven't won it'd it'd be brilliant to see to see. No absolutely. And do you know what, we can see it happen ing. And either way, it is gonna be an absolute belter of a uh Investic Champions Cup final. And um Yeah, it's gonna be brilliant. So I feel very privileged that we could get to be there. Dev, look after yourself. Thanks so much for that insight, mate, and uh enjoy your weekend tuning in. Thanks, guys. Enjoy. All the best. Take care, mate. Thank you very much. See you, mate . Well, we've arrived and I've got to say it is a lovely whole hotel isn't Colin. Yeah. There's also a reason we're staying in a lovely hotel then. You've got a great deal. I'm optimistic about it, it's gonna be absolutely fine. We've got a great deal. Yeah. It's fine. We're in a nice hotel. It's uh and the reason we're in a nice hotel is you got a two-for-one deal, didn't you? Correct, I got a two-for-one deal. So And what's the two for one deal? We're sharing the price of one? We're sharing. Two people in one room. Correct. Two people in one room. And I thought, well, we could have stayed somewhere else, but I didn't want to do that because I thought let's stay somewhere really nice. And we'll just share. We've shared loads of times on tour. So here we are. Mate, look at that. There we go. Let's swing that around. Toilet in there. Good. Here we are. Cristen that. Right. Slight. The biggest room, Ben. Slight problem. So Hang on. Is there a divider there? Does it look like there's a split? No. Does it look like there's a split in this bed? Mate, we could have stayed. We could have stayed. Look, look at this, we're in a great location. Sure, I might have got a little bit of a good deal on it. But like we don't mind that. We've roomed together loads. We weren't roomed in the same bed. No, that's I mean we might have to request a single bed, which you'll be sleeping on, not me, thank you. You can sleep on the floor. I'll have a room in the wardrobe for you. Is there anything in here? Uh all is not lost, Coley. So turns out there's a deal on the spa . Another one of your great deals, eh? Right, leave it with me. I'm gonna sort this out. There's a uh look you you need relaxing. Yeah, I'm a bit tense now, Ben. Yeah, you're right . Ben, I know you said you'd treat me uh that I've done a lot of the driving and it'd be a nice a treat. And uh also we spent a lot of time together on this road trip and in our careers in general. Um I didn't realise we were spending this moment together though. Yeah, some some would say I've misjudged this um this kind gesture of getting a couple's massage. It's just a painting scene here. I thought I was doing a lovely thing by getting a couple's massage with Coldie. I thought, you know, it's gonna be a busy week. Let's just squeeze a quick, you know, massage re- R and R. We need it. Um But it's a most romantic setting. There's candles everywhere. The lights are dimming. And um we're in a pair of pants and we're quite close to each other, which is now I'm starting to think it's rather awkward, but um To be fair, we've stayed in small hotel rooms, so it's all right. The other reason for this colley was partnerships. That's why I thought about it. Leading up to final is the best partnerships spend all the time together. And I reckon Luku, Jallibear, this week, mate. They'll be looking at footage, training together, coffees together, dinner together, maybe even sleeping next to each other , um, and potentially doing recovery together. Well this weekend, right? The matchups between the halfbacks is gonna be amazing. Gibson Park, Luku . Uh, but I just wanna talk about Jalabarea and Luku 's partnership in particular. We saw against when they played against Toulouse, you know, Jalabert actually scored a try, but actually if you look at it, so they get sort of maybe two sort of ten meters from touch line and most tens would fall back into shape there. And what I mean by that is once they're near the touchline, they'd fall back into that sort of pod system of of three forwards and then ten gets out of the back of it. But he recognises to go like it's on same way and he flattens up on Luku. And some tens almost when nine start running is they stay with their width and everything like that and they don't recognize that they can flood channels. And that's where for me, Jalliber and Luku, that synergy is so important. Like we've seen times where Jalliber's like had more carries than centres. And that's because like Luku gets the team going and the forwards rumble. But Jalabert's ability to actually then pick holes in the outside of that to actually flatten up and flood those channels is so important. And it then gets me thinking about the blitz defense at Leinster pose. So Leinster will obviously try and force Baldo back in field. That's what they want. They basically want to force you, get in the high high eye line, force you back in field, opens up that sort of a I suppose pit uh to fall back in to get jackaled, slow down, you sort of get stuck between the 15th, it's very, very hard then to play. So actually, I think his ability to actually flood those channels, because they want to force you in anyway. So actually by going tight and actually sucking them in even more. And we saw Northampton do it, you know, just over a year ago in the semi-final, where they're able to be so efficient in terms of like short, punchy, up the guts, up the guts, then take an edge and get around that blitz defense. And I think Jalliber is just going to be so important with that because not only can he carry through the line, Coley, but his ability to flatten up, play on top, play on top, which actually then ultimately against a blitz defense, if you get momentum, you're retreating, you can't then blitz as hard, you get tighter and tighter, and then you can distribute. Where some tens may just sort of fall into that trap of standing nice and wide, getting it off Luku, then you can't get your whip from the ball, you force back inside and you get stuck between the 15s. And at times, Leinster will do that to him, but I just think his variety and the way he flattens up and his ability to punch at the line will actually favor Bordeaux and give him a better chance of getting outside that blitz defense because it is high, it's aggressive, and it can trap you. You saw them do it against Toulon. Toulon at times got trapped between the both fifteens, which is what Leinster want. But this weekend he's gonna be pivotal to making sure that Bordo got on the outside of that. I agree on the blitz. Bordeaux's danger man, LBB, the one at the ball in his hands as much as possible. And you saw Leinster's defense against Toulon come up and basically close down 13, channel force everything back inside. So going through Jalibert, Jalibert with his kicking game and with his distribution game, he's gonna try and get the ball to the width. Um be interested to see if he can has the ability to get around it but if he can't then his ability to run at the line play off Luku you saw the try against Bath which Luku scores but pick off a scrum basically Chalabert flattens up you think it's going to the edge, goes back inside, offloads to Luka, away they go. So that partnership amount of the readoff each other, dynamism, how Luku controls the full pack. You look at the big runners, Bordeaux have got, they don't really have much shape who traditionally like the three pods, all that kind of stuff they basically have one-out runners, clear the breakdown, latch it, and then play in Luca's ability to if there's a hole in that lens to defense around the sort of bodyguard guard or the first two or three defenders in the the breakdown, Luca will go. And once he goes, Jalobert flattens up, forwards come and you, just give like you give Luku, I'd say, three foot space around the breakdown, and it becomes like 30-metre break because of the momentum that Bordeaux can play with. So yeah, those two partnership, the threat they have. Also, if you're a forward defending at say you're the third man out, you're worried about Luku going, but then Jalabert's the his threat at the line. There's not many tens at the threat at the line there's a lobert and Jalabert is tough. He will carry into contact and run into people. He's got no fear of that. So, you know, they test defenses, especially forward in those around the breakdown in different ways, and it's gonna be um fascinating to see how they play off each other and get momentum for Bordeaux. There's few teams like Leinster, like when you come against Leinster, there's few teams that look at them go, okay,, you know you've got to earn the right to get around the blitz, you've got to try and tighten them up, but they can't win those physical battles around the ruck where actually Bordeaux can or those big French teams can. Um but then I think if you flip it though, Leinster, if they do if they're able to stop that right, if they're able to get to that partnership, if they're able to cut down time and space, if they're able to almost get hold of Jallipair and force them in but actually then be physical around that contact area and don't allow Bordeaux to momentum, then actually you can see it working for for Leinster. So again, like the battle of can Baldo unlock the blitz? How do they unlock the blitz? It's almost going really aggressive around the ruck to tighten them up and get momentum. Can Leinster stop them from getting that? And if they do, can they can they do what they want, which is ultimately force a team to play within the fifteens? Right. I think our masseuses are ready to come in, so um now we should relax a while. Yeah . Just to let everyone know exactly what's going on, I'm just setting up Cody's microphone. We are sharing a bed. I knew he'd come around to it. And um you haven't really said much because he's been reading, but you can talk to me now. It's all set up. You can put your book down. I'd like to read it, Ben. I'm quite enjoying it. Are you sleeping in your dressing gown by the way? Possibly. Yeah. I think I might we need to do like a pillow to divide our our Started off in Cardiff , got on the road , met Jamie George, had a lovely catch-up with him. Do you know what? I got so much time for that bloke. Yeah, it's Latin one again. Yeah, it was a champ. He's an absolute champion. So good saying Jenks. But we couldn't forever because we had to catch a ferry. Yeah, which means yeah, we'll catch up with him again and again and again. Because he's got a long retirement, so it will caught a ferry. Um got a bit of sea legs, I think. Do you think? Yeah, it was um It was a bit of rockier than I thought it was gonna be honest with you. I I found it very rocky. I was surprised how speedy it was, in like an hour and a half. Yeah, it was quick to be fair. And then um other side, Calais to Paris, the motorway 's perfect. Um I mean we did nearly get hit at one point though where a driver decided just to Oh yeah. An old man decided to wander across three lanes and just cut us off . Yeah, thanks mate. Um that turns out when you get to Paris it's just total law. We got to Paris, where we're coming in by Saint-Denis by the by the national stadium, Stade de France, played some games there, obviously an event on, and the whole thing was packed. No police escort for us this time. Uh so we had to fight through traffic. And turns out Parisian traffic, the drivers are dreadful. Trying to turn left from the lane on the right, the third or fourth lane on the right across everyone is uh well, I'd say it's dangerous, Ben, but it did allow me to beep the horn many a time, which I thoroughly enjoyed. Yeah, I think you've you've found that inner um no hard no holds bar driver of just beep flash. If there's a space, take it roofless. Just you know, when in Paris , beep the awn. Um so they did that, went round Art of Triumph. That was nice. Very nice. Went round about forty two times, so you get a picture. Also it's a lot of people tourists taking pictures of the phone Possibly the Art of Triumph in the background but they've got the Pink Jacob as well, whether they liked it or not. And then uh now we are here in Versailles and we are we've you know we are sharing, but you also booked a massage couple's massage for the pair of us. Um so we're nice and relaxed, had some dinner. And now it's time for bed because we've got another big few days ahead of us. We have. The road trip is underway and there's still a lot to be done, including fantasy rugby this weekend. Have you picked your team yet? I haven't picked my team just yet. I've got a lot of Lens to guys in it and Bordeaux guys because I sort of semi-predicted that last week. I've got about three changes to make. I've got to change my winger. I've actually made changes. Alright, and I can obviously change them again, but I'm anticip ating the likelihood that all these players will feature. But I brought in Cameron Walkie. I've uh got Jack Conan come in. They're already on my team. Oh well done. I've got big Ben Tamyafuna at tithe. He's a decision I've got a I've got to change for a tight head, winger, and also second row. So I d when the money I get back, whether I'm gonna splash the cash on, might spend it all up front, might get Jefferson Poirin, I might get tummy fooner, you know? I'll be honest, I had to sell Penno because I needed to get some get some more m money. Yeah. Um to get the squad I wanted. But it's shaping up pretty nicely. I was thinking about bringing Penno into my team, but Yeah, he's a hefty he's a hefty wage. Maybe maybe I'll make up some um some ground, but yeah. Well, it's not too late to do your fantasy rugby and make those changes. And I tell you what else, it's not also too late to sign up for Premier Sports. Go to premiumsports.com and of course you can watch the Investic Champions Cup this Saturday and the EPCR Challenge Cup on Friday night. We better get some rest unless you're gonna carry on reading more. I'm about to read a bit more. I'm enjoying it. I'm gonna turn off the light. I'm gonna I'm gonna have to take off the dressing gown. I'm just not sure I can sleep with the dressing gown on. But you can keep yours on, that's absolutely fine. And um I'm not cuddling you. No, we've got a big day tomorrow. Right. And we'll be back on Thursday. Alright, so follow for Lover Rugby channels. Uh where you can see our journey and an episode will also be out on thursday thank you very much for listening for the love of rugby Selling your car can be super simple. If you choose we buy any car. Now in their 20th year, they're on average 11 minutes away. So help is never far. If only they could make finding a good driving song simpler . No , no , oh, definitely not. We buy any car, selling made simple. To sell your car today, enter your reg number now at weebuyanycar.com