The History of American Culture Wars

From WHYY in Philadelphia, I'm Terry Gross with Fresh Air Weekend Today, the two most famous women's tennis champions of their generation Chris Evet and Martina Nva Tolova Talk about being friends and rivals After they retired, Evet and Nvatolova were each diagnosed with cancer at about the same time. They did well. But recently ever disclosed she'd just been diagnosed with a recurrence Also, we talk about religious and political attacks on the arts with Isaac Butler, author of The Perfect Ment God, Sex, Art, and the Birth of America's culture Wars Even breakfast cereals or whatever have become part of the culture wars now And critic John Powers reviews Alice and Steve, a British comedy series about a man in his fifties who starts dating his best friend's much younger daughter. That's coming up on fresh air weekend This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Terry Gross My guests, Chris Evet and Martina Nv Tolova were the greatest female tennis players of their generation. They were friends, and they were each other's greatest rivals in the seventies and eighties When Everett retired in nineteen eighty nine, they'd each won eighteen Grand Slam victories, and they'd each been the top ranked female player in the world seven times Neverv Tolova retired in two thousand six Now they're the subject of a new Netflix documentary called Chris and Martina, the final set. It tells the story of how they interacted as friends and as opponents and how their friendship went cold for an extended period when their rivalry became more fierce When they were each retired, their friendship deepened as they both faced cancer and were able to support each other. Everet was diagnosed with ovarian cancer in twenty twenty one Nyvralova was diagnosed with throat and breast cancer in twenty twenty two The same year that Evet had a recurrence When I spoke with them a couple of weeks ago, they were both in remission But recently E disclosed she'd just been diagnosed with a recurrence of ovarian cancer Here's how the interview went a couple of weeks ago Chris Eve Martina Evtalova, what a pleasure to have you on fresh air. And really like the documentary is so good, both in terms of your friendship, your rivalry, but also the excerpts of matches between the two of you that are just spectacular to watch. So congratulations on that. Thank you. Thank you. I mean, what are the odds you'd have cancer at the same time and be a short drive from each other in Florida Yeah, this is Chris. Freaky. I can't even I can't get away from her. You know, Ething happenens with us. We had a fifteen year career And then we got cancer at the same time and It really is freaky. But you know, I always say if I want someone to be in the trenches with me, it's Martina because she has been so supportive and so understanding and so such a calming, you know, voice to talk to Yeah, have we have such a level of trust that we know whatever we say to each other, it stays there We know where they give each other the best advice. We know how to And there no there's no ulterior motive for no, you know, no playing games. And that's how we like it. because I think we both have had so many people, Ohh, you're great, this and that. they don't, you know, they don't give you the real story. But we've always been honest with each other on that front So you both have or had athletes' bodies And Martina, one of the things you were known for at some point in your career was basically builduilding your body, you know, just like intense like four hour a day training to make your body stronger And then Chris, you ended up doing a very similar thing to keep up with Martina And when you had cancer, you were really weak. I mean, it was hard to just walk What was it like for you as athletes to live in a body That wasn't functioning, that was very weak. Well, for me, I mean, so Chris's diagnosis and treatment was much more life threatening than mine, percentage wise But my treatment was more difficult physically, I think I brought my yoga mat with me. I was in New York for seven weeks, and I literally sat on the yoga mat maybe half an hour of the seven weeks and did some stretching I couldn't even do the down doog post because I would have fallen down. I had absolutely zero strength left. But the longest thing that took was the taste, which I love to eat, so that was tough. But you know, we're athletes, so we want things to happen right away It was almost a year before I had full taste buds coming back. But it all came back. But Chris was well, you talk about what you went through. Well, I think the chemo kick my butt. let's put it that way. And you know when you think about don't I don't want to use the word poisons, but the toxins it's killing the good cells as well as the bad cells. and it left me veryer weak, very, very weak. After a chemo, I would have three or four days of intense nausea and I just would feel tingling in my body and it just wasn't nice. And I didn't have the energy, I mean, to walk six blocks was a big deal for me. U and it was foreign. you know, it felt like it wasn't my body for sure. Yeah. What were you able to do to support each other through the cancer and its treatment You know, there are a lot of phone calls between us and u Martina, who is the cook in the relationship, I don't cook, but Martina would bread for me and her wife, Julia would cook make some chicken soup. a lot ofress Yeah. I got a lot of food from Martina. She got necklace from me. Yeah. I get jewelry from Christ, She gets food from me. But you know, Martineas in my relationship because we've had one for fifty years is not the type where we have to talk to each other every day to maintain the closeness. I always knew she was there. She always knew I was there if we needed to talk, and that was that Martina, you knew that something was wrong when you felt a lump in your throat It was my my lymph ne It was your Yeah. Yeah, yeah, the can the Tuma ros in my On my tongue based on my tongue but I did not feel that. I just felt a smalloll lymphodes But Chris, you weren't symptomatic, but your sister, Jean, had died of ovarian cancer And she had a genetic mutation and you wanted to see If you had the same thing D' to get that right? Yeah. yeah, I'll tell you the story to that. My sister, Jeannie was traveling with me to Singapore and we were running to the gate But I look back and Jeannie was huffing and puffing and not running And I said, Geie, what's the matter? She's an athlete And she said, I don't know. I've just been out of breath the last few weeks. and I just don't know. I think maybe I have a lung know infection or something. And I said, Well, did the doctor say that? And she goes, No, haven't been to a doctor. So I said, Jeannie, you know what, we're going to Singapore for four days. and when we come back, you are going to the hospital right away and get this tested because something's not right. So she said, okay So she went and first she got her genetic testing and believe it or not, she did not everything turned out fine. She didn't have the broca gene, but she had a variant that was of uncertain significance. whichich means it hasn't been tested enough know, there's not enough case studies And so they said, you know, she doesn't have Baca. You don't need to be tested. So nobody else in the family was tested Unfortunately, Jeannie left it too long and When she went in, she had stage four of varian cancer, and it had spread everywhere in her body. And She ignored the symptoms because like most women who are nurturers, they're caring about their kids and their husband and their family, they forget about themselves. and that's probably one of the messages, I want to get out there. If you feel anything different at all slightly, go get it tested So After my sister died two years later I get a call from the geneticist and they said, Do you remember that? variant that your sister had of uncertain significance. Well that is that has changed and now that's basically cancerous And it's Broaca So may we recommend that you and your family go get tested. Next day I went got tested. I had the Bachagine in me and that week I got a hysterectomy and they took it all out. but the results came back and they said, unfortunately, you have a tumor in your ovaries and you have tumors in your fallopian tube. And I was like, are you kidding me? And they said, but you know, it's stage one. you got lucky, you got it early. And by the way, I had had blood tests, I had had internal sonograms, I had know everything that you can imagine and Nothing was detected as far as ovarian cancer. and I felt fine. I felt no symptoms So that was my story. And it's like, You know, so I had the brroachogene, and got I had a hysterectomy, and then later on I had a mastectomy because you have a seventy percent chance of getting breast cancer if you have the brroachogene My guests are Chris Evet and Martina Nvre Tolova The new Netflix documentary about their friendship, their rivalry, and having cancer at the same time in the twenty twenties is called Chris and Martina, The final set They were in remission when we recorded our interview a couple of weeks ago But recently, Evet disclosed she'd just been diagnosed with a recurrence of ovarian cancer We'll hear more of our conversation after a break This is fresh air weekend This is Fresh air Weekend. I'm Terry Gross Let's get back to my interview with Chris Evet and Martina Nvt Tolova Tennis champions in the seventies and eighties. They spent much of their careers as friends and as the greatest rivals A new Netflix documentary called Chris and Martina, The final set is about the challenges of that dual relationship and about how they supported each other when they were each diagnosed with cancer at about the same time in the twenty twenties Martina, when you played your first match in the U S I think it was the first time you'd been to the U. S. from Czechoslovakia And travel was so restricted after the Russians invaded What was that first tournament like for you? L you weren't really speaking the language. you were basically alone. I think Chris had already like, you know, befriended you and was being kind of acclimate you U But tell me what that first match was like. And was that against Chris No, no, no, no. So the first tournament I had to play qualifying to get into the draw. it was sixteen draw. Chris ended up winning it, of course But I won my first round match. I got qualified and I won the first round match, and then I lost in the quarters But I was thrilled to be in the States. I've always loved American cars. And when you order a ham sandwich, you got you know like two inches of ham and two slices of bread Whereas growing up, you had thick bread and one slice of ham. So I thought I was in heaven and it was two dollars fifty cents for that sandwich. I still remembered. I couldn't believe how much ham I was getting. So I fell in love with American culture because it was so there were oranges on the streets. I could pick an orange. This Florida, California. Florida. this is F Lordale. So I'm picking up an orange of, you know as I'm driving down the road And in Czechoslovakia, we only had oranges once a year. For Christmas, we would get bananas and oranges. It was a treat. Normally you just get apples and pears and maybe peaches So it was like u You know, Alice in Wonderland for me comoming to the states Chris, you befriended Tina, you helped her. you know, culturally, but also did you help her with her game? And did you think she's gonna become my fiercest rival soon No, I did not help her with her game. She wasn't gonna to do that. You back. Yeah. I was not a coach. I was a player trying to protect my number one ranking. And you were eighteen. I saw a very talented young Czechoslovakian player and I played her in Akron, Ohio And you were sixteen then? Yeah sixteen I was four from on the tour which is in the same month that I met her and I won seven, six particularly three I remember thinking to myself Holy cow When this young girl gets into better shape, she is going to be a force to be reckoned with and very dangerous because she had so much talent She her hands were quick You know, she had a big first serve, she had a big forehand and she just was so powerful So you maintained your friendship until kind of went cold And the way the story is told in the documentary is that Martina, you had become close to Nancy Lieberman, who I think it's fair to say was like the most famous basketball. Y, she was basketball player of her era And I think you became romantically involved too, but She told you that you had to like trarain harder. better and you know, trim down And she had you training like for hours a day and your body transformed Unbelievably. But she also told you that it was time to stop being friends with Chris. because it's hard for an opponent to be a friend. You have to just like not think about her feelings or anything and just see her as your rival and I want to know from each of you how that felt Let's start with you, Martina. how did it feel like I can't be friends with Chris anymore Well, this happens. So Nancy I met in April and then Nancy came with me to the French Op, Eastbourne Wimbt and I lost in the semies in all those tournaments And after Winda and she says, What are you doing? What do you mean? You could be in so much better shape and you're too nice to Chris. I'm like, what are you talking about or you need to be tough and you need to start training harder and you need to hate your opponents and you need to hate Chris. I'm like, o, okay. And I was very you know naive. And again, I didn't have the skills to say, no, that's I don't have to hate her. I just need to want to beat her. I was almost too friendly But the getting in shape thing was new to me. I thought I was in good shape. and she took me on the basketball court, had me run some suicide drills. and that's when I realized, okay, I'm not in as good a shape as I thought. So that summer I started training hard And then during the OSopen, Renee Richards started helping me, became my coach after the OSopen, and that's when everything kind of changed for me. The fitness and then the coaching becausecause for six years after I defected, I didn't have a coach. My father was my coach, but we could talk maybe once a month So he couldn't coach me. And I was on my own and that's when Renee started helping me. That's when everything changed for me And Chris, what was it like for you after Martina Following the advice of Nancy Lieberman distanced herself from you I heardful. It was very hurtful. And I don't think that was really Martina. I think she was just, you know, following Nancy's orders. And Martina, you know, was really sort of afraid to speak up to her at the same time. but in saying that U Nancy Lieberman Heck of a lot for Martin Aavtolova when it came to her tennis and her fitness because it was one hundred and eighty degree turn from the athlete that she was then until after she had worked out with Nancy and she was just she became unbeatable and then for the next two and a half years, you know, lost six matches. So she did her a lot of good. let's put it that way, but not in a nice way. You lost six matches I had a stretch where I lost six matches in three years That's hope ammazingly up playayed then. I mean, when I look at the numbers now I'm like, wow But when when you're doing it, you don't think about it. But yeah, that was a pretty good stretch Chris, what it to your identity because your identity was built Ever since you're like fifteen un like being amazing, being unbeatable, being number one And when you stopp being number one, when you were losing to Martina who you had known before she was nearly that good What did it do to your sense of self you know I mean, whether it's ego or pride or whatever it is, I wasn't happy about it I hadn't played anybody like that before. Nobody had come along with that versatility and the strength, the power that Martina had. And it was tough to swallow, to tell you the truth But after a while, I kind of came to terms with it and realized She's just too good and you can continue to work hard. Go in the gym like she does and train like she does. and you know just try to become a better athlete and chang a little bit. You started training and ye. Change my strategy. Yeah You took a break for a while from tennis I think I was the first one to take it was a mental break at that time. because the way I described it was like I'd wake up in the morning and I didn't want to get out of bed and the thought of competing, you know made I just didn't I didn't have the burning desire. I didn't have the killer instinct Were you burned out and were you also discouraged because you weren't winning as much? No, no, no, no, no. I was I was burned out. I mean, you know that they they call that the seven year itch In marriage, Well, there's to me, there's a seven year itch as being an athlete. And I just was mentally drained. and I need I wanted just to live life like a normal twenty four year old. Yeah I was seventy seventy eight. I played twenty one tournaments and Chris played ten tournaments. Martina, did you go through that seven year period I was burned out at the end of ' eighty six and I did not know it either. It should have been red flags flying everywhere because I ask my then coach Mike Gestep. How few tournaments can out play and still stay number one Hello But I didn't know to take a break. I did not take any vacations And And I played for three years burned out. and I still kept trying and the results weren't there. Then Stehie Graff comes along and starts beating beating both of us and some ended up talking to Billy Jean. and I said, Billy, I don't know what's going on. This is now eighty nine in the spring. I said I don't know what's going on. I'm you know, I'm trying hard but the results aren in there and this and that. So she advised me to take a takeake a week off, just do nothing except what I want to do and see if I still feel like the love of the game that I had when I was a little girl hitting against the wall So I did that. I took a week off, did nothing And I'm like, yeah, I still want to play I love the game. And I still feel I can get better or improve in some ways and I want to play And so that and I played six more years after that. So all it took was one week of self reflection. But I didn't know to take the break I wonder if this contributed to feeling burned out. you talk about and in the documentary, you talk about how Chris was considered like the girl next door. Everybody loved her in the stands. But for you, people saw you like, well, she's the communist. And she's a bully and then at some point after you were outed and she's a lesbian and that you would get some booze, you wouldn't get as many cheers as Chris did And that sounds a little demoralizing. Did that contribute to your feeling of burnout in things? I'm sure that didn't help because I always felt like I was the visiting team. No matter where I played, you know, they were cheering for the other guy to to win or for me to lose either way, you take it personally and it was tricky and playing Chris was difficult because how can you not like Chris was not to admire, you know, she was she was like the epitome of cool And I was not. But then coming from a communist country, coming from a Slavic country, then of course being gay didn't help either So and then, you know, had visible muscles and you know, it was physically stronger. imposing and all of this and unapologetic I never apologizeed for who I was and You know, as a woman, you're supposed to be more demure and I certainly never was that. So there was just a whole bunch of stuff and When you really think back, I was still kind of alone because I was not getting the help emotionally or mentally. that I could have used back then And the pressure never goes away, really And then there was also the pressure of not being able to come out because it wasn't done. You know, you No, No, no, no. I couldn't come out because it would have been a disqualifying could be disqualifying for getting my citizenship. So I couldn't come out u I don't got my citizenship any one. Yes. S was on there. It's up to the final officer, which were I think always men. who did the final interview to approve you for citizenship They can ask you whatever they want. and if they ask you, are you gay and you can't lie Because then that could be a disqualifier. You have to tell the truth, you under oath. And if you say yes, and if that officer deems that a disqualifying answer, then you will not get your citizenship and you're done And so I couldn't come out for that reason. And then once I got my citizenship, I didn't want to come out because it would have hurt the tour So it was always something I was never ashamed of who I was, but I was kind of in the closet because of these circumstances. That's a lot to keep in when you're in the public. It is It is Thank you both so much for being on our show and thank you for participating in that documentary because it's really good Thank you. Thank you, Terry Chris Evet and Martina Neva Talova are the subjects of the new Netflix documentary Chris and Martina The final set The offbeat new comedy Alice and Steve tells the story of decades old friends who have a bitter falling out when Steve gets romantically involved with Alice's twenty something daughter This six part British series, which recently dropped on Hulu stars Nicola Walker, one of the queens of British television and the New Zealand musician and actor Jermaine Clement. who is in, among other things, flight of the Concordes and what we do in the shadows Our critic at large John Powers says, The new show drove him crazy in lots of ways, but its best moments and Walker kept him avidly watching I grew up watching episodic shows on network TV Nearly all of them formulaic The sum indelibly great And then, like everyone else, I moved into the days of what my colleague, David Ban Cooie dubbed Platinum TV where series like the Sopranos and The Wire and Fleabag aspired to something higher Both these eras had in common that their shows were carefully crafted they had an internal logic that held them together In recent years though, there's been a proliferation of shows that posossibly obeying some algorithm. Care less for coherence than sensation They lurch among tones, from cuteness to sentimentality to meanness stirring in random plot twists along the way. Bouncing all over the emotional map These shows depend on compelling actors and a few memorable scenes to make us overlook their loose construction A great example is Alice and Steve An entertaining but sometimes exasperating, six part British comedy on Hulu two fifty something best friends who turn on each other after he gets involved with her twenty six year old daughter. The premise is juicy It's also a tad yucky And I'm mainly tuned in because its title characters are played by performers Jermaine Clemment from Flight of the Concordes and Nicola Walker whom I've raved up on this show more than once The series starts poorly with Stehven Alice going on a cutesy bender after a friend's funeral always hate drunk scenes, which are an invitation to overact As Clement and Walker braay their lines, we learn that Steve's a divorced celebrity hairstylist who can't find a girlfriend Well, Alice is a clothes designer with a doting younger husband, nicely played by Joel Fry, a sweetie pie of a teenage son, this Tyse Eaton Dice Of course, that twenty six year old daughter. Iszy who has inherited her mother's willfulness. Played by Yale Topo Margalolite. Iszzy kickstarts the plot by flirting with Steve Nortably, he succumbs Almost immediately, they think they're in love Well, the weak willed Steve wants to hide their romance He knows it's inappropriate Izzy just blurts out the facts to her mom Alice flips. And from here on in this series where the women are as alpha as the men are hangdog Alice drives the action rayed and violently angry, she'allll do whatever it takes to break them up No matter who gets hurt Atics unleash Steve's own malice We're in beef territory Early on, Steve and Izzy are walking to a dinner party organized by Alice pretending to have buried the hatchet. You do realize this is Probably a train Or she could be trying to work out Yeah Yeah No, you're right, this is definitely a trap Yeah Do you think Daniel's going to punch me? Right, as's if Daniel would ever punch anyone. Maybe we could show her that this is a good thing. I like her best friend. and how nice that she already really, really loves the guy I'm dating. Hm. Yeah You nervous? Yeah Terrified At its core, Alice and Steve hinges on the way that platonic friendships are often richer and more powerful than romantic ones It's a fascinating subject, which may be why I found the script by Sophie Goodhart so frustrating. I wanted her to dig deeper Well, the show's got some very funny bits Alice's sharp tongued mother is a blast often annoyingly lax. If Steve really does the hair of Charlie XC X, How come he's a clueless older guy whose pop culture references are Willie Nelson and Woody Allen If Yesie truly adores her mother as she claims Why did she keep rubbing her relationship with Steve in her mom's face Halfway through, one character nukes the other's career But this life shattering event has no real weight It's barely even mentioned for the rest of the series That said, Alis and Steve is worth seeing. For scenes like the one in which Steve spinelessly sells Izzy out or the lacerating discussion between Alice and her husband. When he fully grasps that he adores a woman who views him as a reliable but dull concierge. Not a man she likes hanging Most touching of all may be the lovely sequence when Alice, wise for once. smooths a romantic crisis between her son and his would be girlfriend. Pair who are the show's emblem of hope For once we understand why people love her. Well, most viewers will find Steve more likekable than Alice The show takes pains not to make him appear predatory or creepy. The rule doesn't give Clement a whole lot to do. Play variations on shambolic dread and discomfort The show gets its galvanizing zin from Walker. A beloved star in England with amazing luminous eyes Alice is the kind of complicated volcanic heroine that you don't see in movies, and rarely see on TV One who shows her apocalyptic rage freely. and in many different forms At least once in every episode, something would lead me to say, Man, is this show a mess But that wasn't a deal breaker I kept watching. After all Life is messy too John Powers reviewed the Hulu series, Alice and Steve Coming up, we'll talk about the Christian rights attacks on books and the arts that launched the culture Wars, with Isaac Butler, author of the new book The Perfect Moment, God, Sex, Art and the birth of America's culture wars This is fresh air weekend This is Fresh Air Wekend. I'm Terry Gross The culture war never seems to end My guest, Isaac Butler takes us through part of its history in his new book, The Perfect Moment. God, sex, art, and the birth of America's culture wars Butler says the conflict had a transformative effect on him because at the same time the culture wars Hurtled toward their climax, art saved his life. His new book begins in nineteen seventy four in West Virginia, with the banning of many books and the county's new school curricula. with the power of the Christian right behind the ban They were also behind the attacks on Martin Scorsese's film, The Last Temptation of Christ taboo breaking artwork of Robert Maplethorpe and David Voyerovich who were accused of creating pornography And Andreres Serano who was accused of creating blasphemous art The story continues with attacks on the NEA's federal funding for the Ats Isaac Butler is the author of the previous books, The Wor only spins forward about the play Angels in America. And the method, about the history of the acting technique known as the method The day after we recorded this interview, the Texas Board of Education approved a new curriculum for students K through twelve mandating each grade to have at least one Bible passage as required reading Many parents and teachers have objected Culture wars continue Butler, welcome back to freshir Thank you, Terry. It's great to be here. So one of the main characters in your book, is one of the leaders of the attacks on the artists who are in your book. and I'm thinking of Donald Wildman And he's one of the leading figures behind the first attack where your history begins So let's start with Who was Donald Wildman? Donalll Wildman is a really fascinating eccentric character who unfortunately died right as I was starting you know doing my interviews for the book. so I didn't get to talk to him, which is unfortunate. But Wildman was a pioneering, you know media advocacy activist. and he was a evangelical Christian reverend in Tupolo who kind of found his calling, that's how he describes it in his memoir in trying to make American culture less blasphemous and less sinful In the seventies, this looked like leading boycott campaigns against these conglomerates because at that point, you know like TV studios and movie studios were owned by these companies that also owned department stores and tin mines and literally coffin manufacturers and stuff like that. So he would do these consumer boycotts to get companies to either stop advertising on shows that he disliked or to pull shows or change the content of shows that he disliked. That was where he started He was very successful at it and built a really, really huge mailing list. And in the eighties, he and a sort of coalition of other evangelical Christians take on Martin Scorsese's last Temptation of Christ. and they pivot from that to taking on, you know offtten quite unknown American so called high art. That's not really a division I believe in, but you know, American high art because it was funded by the government. And that created an opening for them to say, essentially, you know, you're wasting our taxpayer dollars on blasphemy and sin. Well, let's go back to nineteen seventy four. In Konawa County, West Virginia, where there was new school curricula from the school board And there was one person who held out on some of the books, on many of the books that were in this new curricula. Her name was Alice Moore. She was married to a church of Christ mininister And she also opposed sex education So she's one person on the board But how does Donald Wildman enter the act Alice Moore is a really also a really fascinating figure. You, the Konawa County teextbook War, which is what it sort of came to be called, was a thing I just discovered during research and it blew my mind because all of the factors in you know, what was gonna become the culture war are present there. You have evangelical Christians, you know, using direct action and organizing and stuff like that to really change the direction of the government. In this case It was a legal mandate that curricula had to be diverse and reflect diverse perspectives on American life. And they were going to approve a new, you know K through twelve curricula for the public schools to do that. And Alice Moore, who, as you said, had been elected to the school board on an explicitly anti sexed platform got them to delay that vote. And while they delayed that vote, a number of Christian organizations and churches both within the county and without came and lent their support. And so there's you know sort ofl the evangelical movement really comes into West Virginia. and they the situation spirals really far out of control over the course of the year. I mean, to a point where people are starting to try to bomb schools to keep schools from open U And the end result is they actually wind up kind of, you know vetoing this rule. They They manage to cause such a fuss that to get it to go away, this county and the school board eventually agree to not have these books come in and to change the rules about what books will be adopted. And within a few years, there's creationist textbooks in classrooms in Kanawa So it's this, you know, that really created a kind of template that religious right figures like Donald Wildman would use again and again and again. So if they created a template, what was the template Well, it starts with a really intense sense of grievance or performance of grievance, that other people expressing their rights essentially, other people's speech is oppressing you other people's point of view that you're you're, you know, Alice Moore says this flat out It's not that I don't want my child learning X, Y and Z. I don't want my child to even know what they are You know, so it's this idea that's really key to the parents rights movement that You know, parents have absolute control over their children and to teach them things that they don't want is a form of discrimination against those parents So you start with that kind of grievance and then you move there to you know organizing these direct action campaigns with petitions and letters and stuff like that. The end goal is to capture a kind of largely non partisan group, like a school board or a regulatory committee or whatever it is and staff it with people who will then use it to perpetuate your ideological goals. So that's what they're always moving towards is capturing the decision makers or pressuring the decision makers and threatening the decision makers in such a way that they are going to help you pursue your ideological So what were some of the books that were removed from the curricula as a result of this pressure campaign I mean, it's there's hundreds of them, right? And' it's everything from, you know, essays by James Baldwin to there's a picture book of Jack and the beanstalk that someone objects to because there's, you know, a black kid and a white kid playing together on the cover So it really runs the gamut. It's hundreds of books that they pull. anthologies, especially of poetry and essays that are meant for you know the equivalent of like AP or Baccalaureate juniors and seniors. you know, like upper level people doing adult level English literature work, that kind of stuff, offtten has a lot of adult themes, right? And so a lot of those books wind up getting pulled Um, Some of which are, you know, books we might take for granted today, like the autobiography of Malcolm X. You know, that was one that got a lot of strikes against it Do you see similarities between this nineteen seventy four case and what's happening now with the banning of books and donon't say gay. Yeah I absolutely do. The difference now of course is that they're in charge You know, you know, Ron DeSantis and the Republicans have a firm grip on the government in Florida. They have gotten those school boards staffed with, you know, people who are ideologically in lockstep with them. So it's much easier. You just have to pass a bill, right? But it's absolutely the same stuff, which is that, you know, we don't want our children learn that there are other ways of looking at the world that's what's really at the heart of it. And a lot of the other ways of looking at the world that they don't want their children to learn about, of course focus on sex, gender, and sexuality So let's jump ahead to the late eighties and early nineties when transgressive art was very popular And it was very unpopular. on the releligious right, and Donald Wildman again becomes a main character in this story. So let's start with Andre Serano who is best known for his photograph. Piss Christ And it was a part of a series that he called immersions in which the images were based on body fluids, either from animals or from people could range from blood to milk In this case, urine Um So I want you to describe the image and then we'll hear an excerpt of my interview with Andre Serano in which he talks about it The image, if you didn't know the title of the image, you would just think it was sort of this beautiful holy, you know tribute to Christ and Christ's sacrifice. It is a crucifix that is angled a little bit towards the viewer, so the end of one of the arms is sort of disappearing into nothing. and it is in this murky kind of field, visual field. It's not even clear that it's a liquid when you first look at it. And it's backlit. so it has this kind of spectral kind of holy power to it. And I think part of what caused all the controversy is the image is so beautiful and so holy seeming. and then, you know, it's contrasted with this title that is extremely blunt and potentially, although that is not how he intended it blphemous. And so it's those two things happening at once that I think help give the work of art its power. There's something almost celestial about it because there's no ground, there's no sky. It's Christ like on the cross, kind of blurry who seems to be like floating in this ethereal space and It's very unearthly looking It's almost as if like Christ is rising on the cross and is kind of celestial looking. especially like if you don't know how it was made. Yeah, I find the photograph unbelievably moving, even knowing how it's made. And you know, like I'm a Jew. I still but I still think that that that that photograph is unbelievably moving and beautiful. And, you know, Serano was raised Catholic considers himself, you know, a Christian. He met Pope Francis, you know, he he is he is wrestling his faith and he belongs to a long history of Catholic artists. I mean, Graham Greenenss the powerower and the Gory comes to mind to me. wrestling with their faith and the symbols of that faith So let's hear an excrapt of the interview that I recorded with Andreres Serano in nineteen ninety three. and it starts with him describing it. It's very mysterious image, I think, as many people have pointed out, withithout the title, it would have been seen as a very reverential treatment of the crucifix and, you know, fit to hang in a church probably. This was a photograph. Yes. but the Crucifix was actually immersed in urine. Yes. Yours. Yes Now when you put those two together, a lot of people see it as blasphemous Well, you know, I never saw it that way. And I remember when I first showed the work in New York. But this woman, she was married to a reverend, She said to me, You know, when it comes to religion, my husband and I don't agree about anything, but we're both very moved by your picture And, you know, that essentially was the reaction at first. No one you know, paid much mind except after, you know, the American Family Association got into the picture more than two years after the picture was first made What were you saying about religion in that piece I would say that u It's probably a reflection of my own ambivalent feelings about my Catholic upbringing. Aside from that, there's nothing specific, know All sorts of claims have been made for that piece. And I remember at the time that I was embroiled in the controversy, the Southeastern Center for Contemporary Art which was the sponsor of that very controversial grant and art show. said to me, you know, the NA is readhing down our neck for an explanation and can we say it's a protests against the commercialization of religion and religious values. And I said, you know, well, that's not language that I would use, but you know, if you want to say that, that's fine What was it like for you to be at the center of a national controversy? to have your art addressed on the Senate floor? It was very strange. I mean, at first I couldn't believe it when they first told me that this was going on that thousands of people You know, at the request of the American Family Association, we're sending in protest letters to Congress. And then I saw myself being denounced, you know on TV and in the congressional record That was the artist Andre Serano recorded in nineteen ninety three on Fresh Air. And my guest is Isaac Butler, author of the new book The Perfect Moment, God Sex, Art and The Birth of America's Culture Wars So it's so interesting because Serano was like toal unknown. Yeah until he was in this touring show because he was I think he'd won a kind of competition and all of the winners were in this group show that was touring. So he mentions in the excerpt that we just heard the American Family Association That's Donald Wildman's group, who we've been talking about So how did Wilderman pick up on this I mean, it's a very weird set of circumstances. Someone saw the photograph in Richmond, Virginia at the Virginia Museum of Fine Arts. And they wrote a letter to the editor of the Richmond Times Dispatch about it And somehow Wildman learned about it through that letter, as far as I can tell. There's been accusations that he, know, put that person up to it or whatever, but I've never seen any evidence of that And so then he, you know started turning on the outrage machine about it. He was writing his list and they were, you know writing to Congress and all this stuff about this artwork, which at that point He hadn't seen, and I don't think anyone who was writing Congress about it had seen it because that show had been closed as Serano said for quite some time U and, you know, it it wasn't like the Sika Touring art exhibit is not like a major art thing. And then it got picked up by Jesse Helmms, Senator Jesse Helms, who's from North Carolina, which is where SkA was based and was a major opponent of the arts and arts funding and was always on the lookout for stories like this to make hay out of U And then there's this weird thing where they have a copy of the catalog of the exhibit and Al Damato, Senator of New York ask them to borrow the the catalogue and he brings it onto the Senate floor and he denounces Serano and he literally tears a page out of the catalogue in the midst of his kind of rant about it. And after that kind of, you know, all hell kind of breaks loose for the NEA, especially. and to some extent for Serano It becomes a little bit more reclusive out of it Although he has always said that that controversy helped put him on the map. And in fact, a few years after you did that interview with him he wrote Jesse Helmms a thank you note for making him famous. So, yeah, he's a's he's a mischievous guy., you know, and so Unions were worth so much more. his gallery wanted to decline doing another show with him because in his previous gallery show, He'd only sold like one photograph But after the controversy You know, he was selling a lot and he was, you know, it was it was a boon to his career It was a boon to his career. It reunited him with a daughter he had had previously that he wasn't, you know in contact with. I mean, it was a really life changing event for him. Well, Isaac Butler, it's been great to have you back on the show. Thank you so much. Cerry, thank you so much for having Butler is the author of the new book The Perfect Moment, God, Sex, Art, and the Birth of America's Culture Wars Fresh Air Wekend is produced by Tresa Madden, Fresh air's executive producer as Sam Briggger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrew Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Stanishevsky Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myeers, Annri Baldonato, Lauren Krerenzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Challiner, Susan Yakundi, Anna Baowuman, Nico Gonzaalesz Whistler, and Heidi Siman Our digital media producer is Molly CVi Nesper Our co host is Tona Moseley. I'm Terry Gross