Addressing Challenges Facing Young Men

This is Fresh air. I am Teria Gross Repeal the nineteenth Amendment, which gave women the right to vote And then let the man of the house vote for the household. If you think that anyone who advocates for that is too fringe to be taken seriously Think again It's the view of Christian nationalist Douglas Wilson pastor who co founded Creck, the communion of Reformed evangelical churches CreEk has a network of about one hundred and seventy churches, including the one Secretary of Defense or Secretary of warar, Pete Hexeth belongs to Wilson was the guest pastor in February at the Pentagon's recently created monthly Christian prrayer service Hexeth prayed beside him Crek also has a network of Christian schools and Hexeth's children attended one of them. Wilson is influential in the growing movement that's sometimes called masculinism. which believes feminism has been em masculating man Men should have more power than women and that a woman's place is at home, raising children and following her husband's wishes My guest Helen Lewis writes about masculinism in her Atlantic article titled The Men Wh Want Women too BeQuiet It's subtitled A virulent form of misogyny has become the single most important force holding together the American right. Wilson was one of the people she interviewed for the article Lewis is a steaff writer at the Atlantic with a focus on the intersection of politics, society, and digital culture. She's also the author of Difficult Women, A History of Feminism in Eleven Fights and the genius myth. a curious history of a dangerous idea Helen Lewis, welcome to Fresh air So before we get to Pete Hexeth and Douglas Wilson What is masculininism? and how does it compare to regular old Misogyny, patriarchy Masculinism is a word that has been around for quite a long time now. It's the idea essentially that men should be in charge That's the way that the world should be ordered, that you get now new versions of it that are about talking about biology. men's hormones mean that they're more suited for government. But it's not exactly patriarchy in the sense that it is a political ideology And it's one that its adherences will kind of argue for. And I didn't want to just say sexism or misogyny because I think that is a kind of conversation ender. you know we can all agree that's bad. Well, I say we can all agree that's bad. Obviously a lot of people don't agree that's bad. But I wanted to give this its due as being a fleshed out set of ideas that sit behind the manosphere influeners that people might have heard of your Andrew Tates or your myir own gains are fresh and fit and has got a kind of intellectual underpinning both to them and to the MGa movement When you say it's a political ideology, what do you mean? In the sense that there is a set of governing ideas and then a series of kind of policy proposals that flow from them In the same way that you might see this as the kind of flip side of feminism. So the idea behind feminism was that men and women should be politically and financially equal And you should enact policies in order to make that happen. You should give women the vote. you should make them entitled to equal pay for equal work. You should stop discrimination that keeps women out of being judges, say, or serving in the military or whatever it might be. This is the other side of that. It says men and women aren't equal. They're suited for different things. Men are much better suited to being politicians, to being CEO's, to serving in combat roles, and women's role is to be nurturers, supporters, mothers So what's on the political agenda You mentioned they're at the start repealing the nineteenth Amendment. that's the one that gave women the right to vote. And that sounds I'm sure to some of your listeners, like the craziest completely settled argument However, it is one that quite serious figures advance. And they do it for two reasons. One is because they genuinely believe it. This is how they feel that society should be structured You know, more like, in some cases, a kind of Saudi Arabian system of guardianship, you know, the idea that men are the head of the family and they should vote as a household. You know what? I'm going to stop you right there. Why don't we hear Douglas Wilson say it? in his own words because this is him talking about Wh we should repeal the nineteenth Amendment Back in the bad old days, before the nineteenth Amendment, the men were considered to be the heads of their households and represented their families at the ballot box So what happened when their wives were granted suffrage Let's take a typical presidential election to illustrate it, using the first one in nineteen twenty after women's suffrage was accomplished The election between Warren Harding and James Cox. If both the husband and wife vote for Harding say, then what you' have done is simply multiplly the number of total votes cast for him by two. And if the husband votes for Harding say and the wife votes for Cox, then what you've done is cancel out the voice of that particular household. Upon discovering how they were each going to vote, what would be the harm if the two of them just stayed home for a quiet dinner together in order to cancel out one another's vote That way, where was the great progress supposed to be located The net effect of women's suffrage was not an advance in women's rights, but rather part of a push to replace covenanted entities like families with raw individualism An overweenining state greatly prefers governing an atomistic populace, where each individual iss like a bebe thrown into an electoral sack. There's no structural rigidity to it, especially after laxity in the law concerning porn, pot, and poker has now greased all the bBies Nothing coheres anymore. In the older system, the people were grouped in molecules, bur little platoons, some of them quite complex, and molecular societies are much more capable of resisting the demands of statism. So the suffrage movement was actually not taking up the cause of women, but rather was part of a long sustained war on the family. The nor of this kind of thinking says that a decision to abort a child is a decision between a woman and her doctor The father of the child is stripped of any legal ability to protect the life of his own legitimate child We need to retrace all of our steps in order to discover how travesty like that could ever happen. And when we do, we discover that a lot of it started at Seneca Falls Can I just ask you, is it J me or can you actually follow his train of thought? How I put this? He is quite a proix speaker. His sentences roll on. But you can see there the outlines of the argument, which is essentially that the family is the unit of society, not the individual And that is a big challenge to liberalism, which has been focused on individual rights. And he thinks that women getting the vote has, for example, encouraged them to see their own bodies as sacrososanct, right? He thinks it's led to the idea of abortion being about bodily autonomy rather than that being something that the fathers of those children have a stake in too. So you can see how it's a coherent ideology. The thing I would say to him is You know, he says, well, it's fine because actually, you know, the husbands voted on behalf of their wives. That's sort of what landowners used to say that they used to vote on behalf of their serfs And you know what, that didn't work out particularly well for their serves. It's one of the things that you know, the American Revolution was about the idea that you know, not fulfilled, obviously in the original Constitution, but the idea that all men are created equal Doug Wilson doesn't actually think that all men are created equal He thinks that actually the family is a fundamental unit, and we should look at people in those blocks rather than as individual atoms But there's always these Little questions like, say you have two adult children living with their parents. One is male, one is female Does the male not get to vote even though he's a man? because The father is the head of the household I mean, I did try and ask Joel Webbon, who's a hardw right pastor who is and based in Austin, how you would work through this. So in his view, unmarried women would also get voted for by a father, a brother, an uncle. And I said to him, having been to Riyadh reporting last year, what you've said there is you say this for Christian reasons, you've described the Saudi Arabian guardianship system. So there there are different versions of it. Some of them I think Doug Wilson's version is that unmarried women would be able to vote on their own. Other pastors would like essentially all women's votes to be assigned to the nearest responsible male And you know, you can talk about and they do how this would kind of encourage people to kind of bond together. isn't it terrible that the votes of the husband and wife cancel each other out Not really, not to me. That means that everybody's had their say. And if the answer is a draw, then the answer is a draw. So getting back to how masculinism has become a political ideology What else is on the agenda? And I should point out here that Douglas Wilson says that although he'd like to repeal the nineteenth Amendment, like maybe in two hundred years, because he has bigger fish to fry. So what are the bigger fish that he has to fry that are also on the larger masculinism political agenda Yeah, I know when he said that to me, I said the thing is, you know, if I said to you, I want all white men to be put in cages, but not now. It's not my aspiration for now. Can I also interest you in my thoughts about tax policy? No, you would want to stop and dwell on that one for a little bit And I think that comes back to what I was saying earlier, which is the other point about the repeal the nineteenth rhetoric. It is designed to be trollish and attention catching. It is designed to be outside what political scientists call the Overton window, the kind of envelope of acceptable debatable ideas, precisely in order to stop everybody having to kind you know, slow down and talk about it You might think about another version of this being the way perhaps the US had arguments about creationism. in which the great idea was you had to teach the controversy And what that did was place creationism, which is a biblical but scientifically unsupported idea, up against the best ideas of modern science and just said, well let's just really weigh them up about which one we should be teaching to children as fact. And this is a kind of version of that And I think because it's affecting half or slightly over half of the population, It's considered more respectable to kind of dally with extreme anti feminist ideas than it would be to say, I think Black people shouldn't vote or I would take the vote away from Jewish people. I think those would, even in some of the excesses that we've seen in the last couple of years on the on the right still be considered not enjoyably spicy ideas, but kind of flat out off the table in a way that Repela the nineteenth is not treated like that So you describe masculinism as the single most important force uniting the American right brringing together an unlikely constellation of pastors, senators, preachers influencers, podcasters, and fan boys Why do you think it's the most important A uniting the American right You know, when I was writing this I was thinking about what other linking strands between MAGa and the kind of loose constellation of influencers around that And it was just in the middle of a very, very big split over Israel You know you have people like the podcaster Tucker Carlson taking a very different line from the White House, criticizing the White House very strongly on that. And you also had Tucker Carlston hosting the very, very right wing podcast, Nick Fuentes on his show, which the Heritage Foundation refused to condemn. and then there was then a mass walkout from the Heritage Foundation. Lots of people up sticks and went to Mike Pence's new Foundation. Youese things are causing really big schisms You might think as well of the splits over regulating AI, for example, there are very different views on that free trade generally versus protectionism America first isolationism versus foreign policy adventuring. You know these are really deep splits that I think whoever succeeds Donald Trump will have to manage very carefully. I mean you've seen JD Vance has been given the poisoned chalice of being the face of the Iran negotiations Any successor to Trump is going to have difficulty holding his coalition together because the only thing really they can agree on is that Trump is the alpha King But maybe the one thing that they do all agree with is traditional gender roles are better Men should be men, women should be women women have got a bit too upperity, it's better that they should be seen and not heard, or at least they should succeed in kind of mAGA approved ways. There's a very strong aesthetic look about many of the women at the top of that movement that is very traditionally feminine, you know, iron fem really. So I just found it was it was Basically apart from the persona of Donald Trump One of the only things that I could see that really united them So let's get back to Douglas Wilson as biblical as Douglas Wilson is. He's called women small breasted bidies which doesn't strike me as godly language. So the clip we're about to hear is Douglas Wilson speaking in the UK on a Times radio show in May of this year When I called certain women small breasted biddies, I was talking about the small breasted bittdies So It is not the case that I think that all women are like that or and it is not the case that I think that all feminists are like that Or that all progressive women are like that. So let me finish the point. This is a really important point. There is a certain kind of woke scold that wants to reach into the shower and adjust the temperature of your shower for you They want to run your life in every detail and they want to scold you for not cooperating And there is that kind of I was drawing a caricature of that kind of person The woke record That was from a Times radio show in the UK recorded in May of this year What do you hear when you listen to that And what do some small breasts have to do with anything Well, a great question. But I think it's about the fact you're not conventionally feminine, right? That's the idea. But this is entirely woven into the critique of feminists as unfeminine and unnatural, you know? And you, I wrote about the suffragettes. this was all the stuff that was being thrown at them. like no one wants to have sex with you. No man would ever want you ugly, you wear clpy shoes, you're probably lesbian. all of these things are insults that are deployed to keep women in line by saying there is a correct way to be a woman The thing that struck me when I listened to that is it's really interesting to me that both the political left and political right have a problem with female authority So his version is the woke skull who tells you to turn down the temperature of your shower. Now some people may have put their shower on too high and the shower may be burning them. in which case, your mum or whoever it is is entirely right to adjust the water temperature But that's a vision essentially of womomen are telling me what to do and I don't like it And the left had a version of that, you might remember from the twenty twenties, the Karen And the Karen was somebody who also essentially wanted to tell you what to do. They were nitpickers who told you to wear a mask or told you not to wear a mask or you said you can't walk there or you can't do this or whatever it was. And both of them are expressing this incredibly persistent and deep belief that it is kind of emasculating and wrong for women to exercise authority I think the reason that some of this stuff is so successful is that it is extremely widely held a millimeter under the surface, both by people who whose persona is overt sexism maybe for clicks, but also for people who you know, know that in their workplace they can't use this kind of language, but you know, it's there in the back of their brain and they'd really like to when they're female boss or something that annoys them Do you think Wilson ever Well, you wouldn't know, you can't read his mind, but I wonder if Wilson ever realizes that calling certain women small breasted biddies is so non biblical and it's so adolescent. It's so unbecoming of somebody who considers himself a very important religious leader But I think American public life has just degraded on this front in the last decade, reallyally, let's be honest, driven by Donald Trump And his final triumph might be making Democrats talk like this too. You know, everything has just become a kind of pig wrestling in the mud, hasn't it We've lost the idea of kind of dignity in public office and public life, and it's now really about who can own the other person harder. I think the other thing, if you want to talk about something else that unites the Mea moveoment, they' owning the libs There is a great desire for revenge on people you who are sort of deemed to have lauded it over you and scold you. And so I don't think that Doug Wilson's salty language really causes him many problems because as he's outlining there, he's very careful that he directs it against his political enemies Fertility rate is a big thing with the masculiness. The fertility rate has been falling in the U. S and in many countries and there's manyany explanations for that But the explanation among many mascationalists is like, blame women, they don't want to have children anymore or they don't want to have as many children or they're going to work and they're not staying home and therefore they're not having children And I feel like, oh women can't win because if women want children, then a lot of men complain,, women, all they want to do is have children. I don't want to have children. I don't want to have that many children. I don't want to be tied down like that. The penduls With this movement is swinging toward like fertility, stay home, have lots of children What do you see that as being about? Is that connected at all to the fear that white people will no longer be the majority population In a few decades Oh, I mean, absolutely. I mean, somebody like You know, Elon Musk has taken up a very true and upsetting story about grooming gangs in Britain. But the thesis behind it has been expanded into this all purpose bogeyman of essentially, you know Islam is coming to take over Europe And those families from that very recently come from poorer countries have more children And, you know, you you will absolutely hear that said all over the manosphere. that the problem is essentially feminism has stopped white women from having enough kids and that will lead to the kind of the end of the white race or European descent civilization or Jude or Christian religion or whatever you want to put it in that way The trouble with it is is, know I think that this ideology is incredibly flexible Because as you say, when it was the nineteen fifties, the idea was women can't vote because they don't have enough responsibilities outside the home. They little brains don they just earn a bit of pin money and whatever it is. they're not full actors in civil society. So why would we want to hear from them? And now that the majority of American women go out and work, even after having children, it's swched to, Well actually the problem is that you know they're ruining society by going and doing that. So whatever women are currently doing, turns out to be to be wrong It's not an unreasonable point in the sense that birth rates are falling in pretty much every country, and it does track with women getting increasing amounts of education. We also do know that lots of women saying they're not having as many children as they would like to which is something that you could potentially address through policies, although no one has really cracked that yet. Places like Hungary have tried explicitly natalist policies You know, things like reduced income tax or whatever it might be But the other thing we know is that the birth rate is falling in some In America or the UK, we would consider still incredibly patriarchal societies like for example, South Korea or Japan where you know, it's still expected that women will give up work after having children One of the things that really just seems to be driving it is, well, in America, there's a possibility that smartphones, I mean the smartphone theory of everything, but the possibility that people aren't meeting each other in the offline way that they would, they aren't pairing up. and downstream of that is fewer kids But also it might just be the fact that parental investment of time in children is so much greater. And money, it's so expensive to have children now. Right, But that's the thing. The average American dad is now spending as much time with their child as the average American mum was in the nineteen sixties this is the most involved generation of fathers ever That makes me think, well, that is quite coincidental that people want fewer children, men want fewer children when it's more hard unpaid work for them And that doesn't seem to be me to me maybe something that we should exclude from this discussion either. Having kids is reallyally hard work Well, it's time for another break, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Helen Lewis. And we're talking about her article on the Atlantic titled The Men Wh who Want Women to Be quuiet We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross and this is Fresh Air You describe Nick Fuentes as Douglas Wilson's intellectual heir. Now Fuentes is one of the more extreme podcast provocateurs. You describe Fuentes as a self professed Christian, anti Semite and virgin. Why do you mention virgin in there becausecause it's really interesting to me that he is not Dou Wil's intellectual air in the sense of a traditional Christian family. What he's not preaching to his followers is settle down, find a nice woman, have some children, be the patriarch and head of your household Everything that he says reeks of the fact that he hates women. he doesn't want to be around them. he never hangs out with them. He has nothing to do with them theorist called Evkovsi Sedwick who wrote the book about homosexuality you know men who only associate with other men who see themselves in other relationships to other men. And that's Nick Fuentes. His is a world of actually no women at all They don't really matter to him You know, which you might say is also true of somebody like Andrew Tate, who is, you know a pimp by his own admission. The women are there just kind of as a way of keeping score to impress other men with how amazingly virile you are And Nick Fent is a more extreme ion that where he's like, well, look, I, you know, I don't even want to sleep with? So let's hear Nick Guentes from one of his podcasts In this he's talking about The problem with women. And this is from his podcast, America First with Nick Fuentes, and it was recorded on february eleventh of this year Our number one political enemy is women. Because women constrain everything, every conversation, every man Every They have to be imprisoned They are the ones that are hurting the fertility rate. They are the ones making us sympathetic to poor people, which are also brown people You know, when you I want you to understand something, when you're sympathetic to poor people, you're sympathetic to brown people because brown people are poor Okay, not all poor people are brown, but most brown people are poor So women are making us sympathetic to poor people, AKA, brown people. Wen are making us sympathetic to George Floyd Women are the reason that their fertility rate is low because they're getting educated and they attack every man as a rapist and a pedophile And u They're henpecking and controlling all the men. So just like Hitler imprisoned Gypsies, Jews, Communists, you know, all of his political rivals We have to do the same thing with women Well,' it's not subtle, is it? It's he doesn't he's not a man who's heard the word dog whistle. It just gone straight to the whistle The thing I find interesting about that is it doesn't surprise me that he's also an anti Semite because in both cases the analysis of what's wrong with the outgroup is the same, right? So both Jews and women are simultaneously weak and useless, but also an evil cabal that is controlling the world And I just find that really really fascinating that that is two historical groups that he has managed to weave together into this seamless mythology And the other thing you see there is he's also talking about empathy. which is the masculinist's most hated emotion. Because you know Doug Wilson has a podcast episode called The Sin of Empathy. Gad Sad, the Canadian marketing professor who iss a big favorite of Elon Musk, had a book called Suicidal Empathy. You also hear about toxic Empathy And this is woven completely into their critique of the problem of women having political power is they think that women want equality and they want to help the underdog. and that means that they, for example, support immigration or they're not tough enough on violent crime. they're not racist enough. Well, in the case of Ncquuentas, yes that they just don't hate brown people, as he puts it. But know there aret respectable versions of this argument about empathy too. So the entrepreneur Peter Thial wrote a very famous or infamous essay for a Cato Institute publication back in the two thousands, in which she said we haven't had a real democracy since the nineteen twenties, a real capitalist democracy, because women and welfare recipients won't vote for libertarian parties. And so to take you all the way back to Douglas Wilson, you know, the critique is the same. The problem with women voting is that they vote in a way that we wouldn't like And that is a problem only if you think that their political preferences aren't equally as legitimate as yours. And actually it's your job to persuade them to your way of thinking. No, they'd rather go straight and say, wouldn't it just be easier to get the political program through that we want if we only had half the electorate convinceced You know, I think with somebody like Nick Fuentes, I always wonder like how much of it is about money and power, you know, like It's a great way to get followers if you live on the extreme and can influence people to join you there or admire like your strong views And how much does he like truly believe And that is almost part of how I think about reporting on it, right? Because you're thinking these people are attention seeking and I'm giving them some attention. And that's not an uncomplicated thing to do as a reporter At the same time they are arguing for these things, whether or not they're sincere is you that's separate to the effect that they're having on the discourse, which is and genuine and does exist. Yeah. So I also think as you know, if you're somebody who does believe in individual voting rights or liberalism, whatever it is, you kind of need to keep We're imprisoning women. Right, but are you are kind of somebody who does need to keep your debating weapons sharp. Th thoseose arguments are never really truly won in a way that I think probably know nineties liberals were a bit complacent about. You do have to stand up and say incredibly controversial things like, I actually think that all adults should vote. mean know which is a very recent historical development, you know, even for a long time Very few people in England where I live, you know only a few nobles were in charge of the government, even when we had a quote unquote democracy. and it took successive, huge political movements to change that. So these, you know, these ideas of individual rights don't they're not natural or they're not, you know, subtle forever And that for me is the point of writing about this stuff So again, you called Fuentes Douglas Wilson's intellectual heir, but Wilson doesn't like Fuente's rhetoric about women. He says The Bible says that a godly woman is a husband's crown I've never seen a king talk about his crown The way Fuentes talks about women Comparing women or wives to a crown, the bejeweled headpiece that announces who is king isn't exactly the most humanizing description of women But that is the distinction between them. You know, they both share that appetite for provocation and certain views, but you know Doug Wilson is presenting as benevolent sexism We know what's best for you. We've got your best interests at heart Nick Fuentis is malevolent sexism, which is You're awful and you should be put in a gul lag and restrained by violence. But they both have the same fundamental underlying point, which is that men and women are not equal and men make better decisions than women. Well, we need to take a break here, so let me reintroduce you. My guest is Helen Lewis. We're talking about her article in the Atlantic. called the men who want women to be quiet We'll be right back. This is fresh air. So alongside this obsession with fertility The masculists also have an obsession with testosterone. Testosterone is the thing That sets apartment from women. men have a lot of it, women have a little of it And it's become like the defining quality for some men of like what real manhood is Can you talk a little bit about testosterone? I mean, this is a story with many strands, O of which it's now never been easier to get hold of testosterone replacent therapy. So just a huge number of people, you know, particularly in that Mosphere podcast zone are on it. You know, they're middle aged men who are feeling a little bit more tired, know things are a little bit more hard than they used to be and they get a prescription for testosterone in the same way that women have been getting HRT prescriptions. And guess what? they feel, you peppy and alive again. And you know that is not an unreasonable medical presentation, but there does seem to also be just a kind of lifestyle feeling that This is what men are. They are aggressive. and they're go getting and they're driven And testosterone is kind of the hormonal version of that So one of the books that I talk about in the piece is The Last Man by Charles Cornish Dale, who goes by the online alias Raw Egg Nationalist. And the reason that he believes that you should take raw eggs is that they boost your testosterone And you know, his whole theory is that The MAGA movevement is a testosterone movement. Donald Trump is the high T president because he, for example, doesn't care about equality. know he's about ambition and ruthlessness because the winners need to win dominant And so they want to bring back, as they say, testosterone to politics. It's all got a bit hippie drum circle, peopleeople trying to care about the weak and the poor and try to make sure that everybody's happy. No, that's not the way things should be. Politics is about power and drive. And those things are symbolized by testosterone And testosterone was actually figuring into The Senate race in Texas because James Talarico, who is the Democrat running for Senate against Republican Ken Paxton, is being called by some of his opponents low T Talarico. and low T stands for low testosterone. There's a lot of like low T Cercials on cable News now advertising testosterone replacement So Stephven Miller, the White House immmigrationar, went on Fox News and said, He's low T Taler Rico. know he's the first transgender candidate for Senate. You know if you cut him, he doesn't bleed, he just drips soy And that's a very deep cut, But there is essentially the feeling that Plant phyto estrogens in soy are also feminizing men. It's one of the many things in modern life that is feminizing men. Sore against soy Yes. there's a whole background to like real men eat meat and are not vegans. So one of the things that was held against him was the fact that he said he wanted to have a kind of animal product free campaign. his girlfriend appears to be a vegan. So he's obviously going to have to spend the summer being photographed eating kind of huge bits of brisket and turkey legs and slaw running down his chin as he goes to barbecues Because you this is the knock on him, because he is quite softly spoken and looks very boyish despite being in his thirties and because he has supported gender transition. You know, the knock on him is that he's not really a man. He doesn't understand what it means to be a man This has got two things. One thing it attacks him, an electorate where there are lots of people, particularly Hispanic men who do have a pretty traditional view of gender. But the second thing is a way of excusing Ken Paxton who is, you know, has faced his own fair share of allegations of corruption, who currently in the middle of divorce on quote, unquote biblical grounds understood to be adultery. She's divorcing him She's divorcing him, but that is understood to be that's man stuff. That's the kind of thing that men do when they're powerful. You know, These are alpha. He' guessing he's got foibles, but his foibles are alpha foibles And that has become a really, you know, big Part of the discourse in Texas is driving up the mail vote by calling James Talerico unmanly. And the key thing is that that is also seen as being weak And this has just infected all the politics, even places you wouldn't realize. So At the beginning of the year, I published a profile of Gavin Newsom, the California governor, who is widely expected to run for president And he told me at the start that he had taken this line from Bill Clinton, which is the American voter prefers strong and wrong. over week and write ssentially this idea that you have to just bulldoze through. you have to be confident and aggressive about things. Now if you see know his team's strategy on social media, which is just been very, very rude about a lot of people Yeah that's what he's gone for. It's not dignified or may be morally defensible, but it looks like power and aggression. And there are voters clearly who want that and they don't associate. the Democrats with that So you know, with Ken Paxton in terms of being an alpha male And that's these are like alpha male accusations. CNN did a timeline of twenty years of scandals. Ken Paxson, and those scandals include securities fraud charges, an FBI investigation of bribery and abuse of office He was sued for firing whistleblowers, the state of Texas sued him for professional miscondconduct The State House voted to impeach him in twenty twenty three. He was acquitted in the Senate his wife filing for divorce on biblical grounds after years of publicly reported infidelity by her husband off those the things that are considered like the alpha male Yeah I think that's the thing. It's like that is boys will be boys. I don't think we've ever stretched it to boys will embezle before, but you know that's where we've got to. The fact that James Talarico is kind of squeaky clean You know, that'ss they haven't been able to land a real kind of like blow on him in terms of probity. Is now recast as being a bit weak, a bit vanilla, a bit soy essentially. And you know, you might trace that all the way back to Donald Trump and the acccess Hollywood tape and the defense of that is locker room talk. You know, this is just how guys talk and you've got to, you know, you've just got to accept that basically. So where do you see President Trump fitting into masculinism and how Masculinist C Trump Well they see him as that the ultimate bully and the ultimate patriarch, you know Here is somebody who controls everything around them. And you know, I see Masculinism is quite anxious ideology in a way because it's about control You know, it's about needing to kind of keep a grip on your emotions. You never cry. you know, you don't eat soup because that's gay. you don't cross your legs because you that's Gavin Newsom did that and ever mocked him on Twitter for it. All these things that you kind of can't do because they would somehow impug your masculinity does add up to quite a kind of anxious way to live, in my view But the way that it's reframed around Trump is you know, I always think of kind of Trump as the Eric Cartman from South Park of American public L life. You know he just does what he wants and everybody else has to deal with it. And that's the kind of ultimate Patriarchal fantasy You can do whatever you want and everyone else has to put up with it. And actually everyone else kind of worships you and look up to you. and you know you've got the woman on your arm and you've got the guys who love being in the status hierarchy where they all know who you the top one is you know, he encapsulates that dream, which I think is hard for people outside the movement like me to understand because I look at him and I think, you know there's a guy who loves show tunes who's slothered in fourteen pounds of makeup and has been dying his hair a series of bizarre colourors for twenty five years or more. It doesn't to me radiate kind of what I think of the sort of that American cowboy Clint Eastwward in a punch show kind of masculinity But there's clearly something about it that codes to those people as very, very alpha indeed. Maybe more alpha, right? Maybe the ultimate alpha thing is you can wear bronzer and no one's allowed to mention it You just have to get on with it You point out something that I hadn't quite put together before which is that, you know, Trump had a surprising number of women in important positions in his second term And then he fired several of them, Telsa Gabbt, Pam Bondi, Christy Noome And they were all replaced by men Yeah, I mean in some cases they were replaced briefly by Marco Rubio, who was the kind of universal solvent for the Trump administration's hardest problems But yeah, it seems to me that it's quite hard to be a woman in MAGA. There are extremely high demands on you. The one who has survived and thrived, I think, is Suzie Wiles. know Trump is unexpectedly the person who brought the first female chief of staff into the White House And she's made it all the way so far. there hasn't been that revolving door that there was in his first term But I think she occupies an interesting position. the way that people talk about her is essentially as a kind of grandma figure, you know, she she doesn't challenge Trump. She doesn't see it as her job like some of the previous Chief of Staff of the military background to kind of challenge him or stand up to him or give him the alternate view. She sees her role as being to carry out and enable Which know it would be probably demeaning to say that that's the role of a really good secretary or executive PA. But it is not an authority role in the way that some other chiefs of staff have kind of presented themselves or carried themselves, I think whereas the women who tried to claim personal authority, within MGa have had a really difficult time And Linda McMahon has survive two Secretary of Eeducation And of course, she was like a co founder with her husband of WWE you know, the big wrestling franchise I mean, she's in a fortunate position really because her belief is that the Department of Eeducation shouldn't really exist. So when that's your kind of guiding principle, it's quite hard to fail, right? It's not that you can sort of say this department hasn't been doing well when you don't think it should exist at all But yeah, she's a very interesting case because she, like Trump understands the idea of kind of storylining your life. know He approaches his presidency like a WWE season where you have heels and faces and reversals and slightly shocking things and that you know she participated in them. there were whole storylines about how Vince was, you know, cheating on her and how humiliating it was and she was tied to a chair in the arena. So she's someone who's willing to endure public humiliation by overbearing men, which I imagine was a pretty good preparation for serving in the Trump administration Let me reintroduce you. we need to take another short break. My guest is Helen Lewis, and we're talking about her article in the Atlantic entitled The Men who Want Women to Be beQuiet. We'll be right back. This is Fresh air Who are some of the people in Congress or in state or city elected officials or influential writers or thinkers who were part of this masculinist movement Someone I would say who is very early to this is Senator Josh Hawley, who wrote a book about manhood a couple of years ago. You know he spotted quite early on that there were lots of men in policy circles and elite circles who felt very annoyed that we'd heard a lot of the future is female and about the various oppression suffered by women in American life and that maybe there would be a constituency that would like to hear a bit more about the ways in which which men are oppressed or men have been disadvantaged So that's, you know, I think that's really important The Trump administration has been using the equality Office essentially to say, are you a white man? do you feel you've been discriminated at work Do you want to come and, you know talk about that. So sort of flipping that idea of the kind of DEI bureaucracy to address a different minority group in white men So I want to mention Scott Yenner, whose name I didn't know, but you write about him. He worked with Florida Governor Ron DeSantis in rolling back DEI programs, and he recently became the chair of the Heritage Foundation's American Citizenship Initiative And they published a report in January that called for a culture wide Manhattan project to promote family building. canan you say a little bit more about that? Yeah, I think Scott Ener is a really inflential, interesting figure. He believes in the family wage, which I guess is the kind of workplace corollary to family voting. Eesssentially you should be able to preferentially hire and promote married men to encourage them to be the bread winners and women to stay at home and be the homemakers. He also has used Douglas Wilson stle language. he talked about women being modern women are medicated, meddlesome and quarrelsome you know, the analysis is very similar. And you do see echoes of this language, I think in you know, JD Vance is very steeped in all this stuff. So bits of this language dribble through to him The interesting thing about Scott Yenner is We published a piece by Henry Olson in the Atlantic when he was appointed to the Heritage Foundation, saying you do realize that this guy's views are really on gender, but really quite extreme And it caused the most awful stink in kind of post liberal and MGa Twitter. Eesssentially the main criticism seemed to be don't air our dirty laundry in public. know Don't tell people about this guy. whichich I thought was that was really fascinating to me. There was an acknowledgement of the fact that know in certain spaces, his views will be received as kind of titillating, but actually for wider consumption, they were probably pretty repellent to the median voter Now I want to make it clear, you think that there are really concerning problems facing men and boys right now And I'd like to end with you talking about some of those. I think that's really should be an important part of the conversation. You know I've written about feminism and you know the things that affect women throughout my career, but it is very important too to talk about the fact. so I think it's really tough to be a young man right now. My colleague Derek Thompson once described the situation of young men as being like monks in the casino. You know, we know that they drink less, they party less, they have more, you know they are less likely to be coupled up than previous generations of men. At the same time via their smartphones, they can access any amount of corn and crypto and gambling. This is a bit where I think I do have some overlap with Doug Wilon, I think that lots of bits of modern life are really tough for young people. They are being urged into funnels to make money for big social media corporations that are not necessarily the way that you know you would choose for anybody to live And I think that the decline of traditional manufacturing has meant that the workplace has become easier for women to get a job in in some respects, harder for men at the entry level Then there has been, I think, in some places, overt discrimination against men and white men because lots of companies in the last ten years have looked at their diversity statistics and kind of vomited how bad they were and gone on what will probably turn out to be unconstitutional hiring binges to try and make those statistics look better Now that's an advance for equal rights. It's tough on the individual men that that has affected So I think, you know, when you are taking on some of these more outrageous ideas, you have to acknowledge that some people feel done by in the last decade, and that is not a completely preposterous situation to take I don't know how much social media you do, but what kind of What kind of reaction are you getting from the mananosphere on this piece that you wrote I think a mixture. I mean, I had some quite hostile responses as you would expect, you know, there were people saying that you know, I make the kind of classic face that all liberal women do when they are you confronted with facts that they can't debunk. all that kind of like blah blah, blah, whatever There were loads of really thoughtful responses too. I think some of the people just like being mentioned in the mainstream media, the kind that they could show to their own mother. You know, when you've got a show on rumble, your mum doesn't really believe that you have a job. So I think there you there was some oddly positive responses from some people. But I also got loads and loads of really thoughtful emails But not least a really interesting strain from older guys who said, you know, I'm seventy and this stuff is also completely alien to me. This doesn't speak for me, and I think I'm really worried we've gone backwards And it was really interesting to hear from them because that's not a perspective, you know that you get to hear a lot, I think, and I don't hear enough of that Well, Lewis, thank you so much for talking with us and thank you for your article It was really lovely. Thank you so much for asking me Helen Lewis is a staff writer at the Atlantic, where her article The Men Who Want Women too Be Quiet is published Tomorrow on fresh air, our guest will be Anna DeVer Smith She's known for writing and starring in shows about real people. She interviews them and portrays them with their actual words Her new show was about her great great grandfather, a free black man who reburied the Union dead at Gettysburg and prepared the ground for Lincoln's most famous speech. I hope you'll join us keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews. Follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air Fresh air' executive producer is Sam Briger Technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phllis Myeers, An Mie Baldonado, Lauren Krerenzel, Theeresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Challiner, Susan Yakkundi, Anna Bauman, and Nico Gonzallez Whistler Our digital media producer is Molly Cvven Nesper Roberta Shurock directs the show. Our co host is Tona Moseley I'm Terry Gse