Lobbying and the Future of Democracy

This is a global production TV, broadcasts, newspapers, whatever. We've handed it all over and now we don't have a public square, we've got a private square. You encountered a young girl who just said, How do they know I like red trainers but they don't know I'm twelve. The public anger about AI parental anger about social media, the fury of young people about where their jobs are going. You have been warning about the dangers that are now in the papers every single day for well over a decade All this growth in tech iss not growth It's transfer I even Kidron, welcome. Baroness, Kidron, no less. Welcome. Thank you for having me. It's lovely to see you. I mean, it's hard to know. We'll start. We'll begin at the beginning because there's nowhere else to begin, but you have worn so many hats in the course of your life and your career that I don't know which one we're going to end up focusing upon more. so we'll begin at the end In fact, and say that your new book uses how big tech took control and how to fight back is I mean, it's interesting for a whole bunch of reasons, but it did strike me that you must be torn between Oh, better late than ever, everybody, and a sense of indication because you've been on this mission, on this crusade since well at the very least the beginning of the last decade. Yeah. well, listen, I do have that moment. I go, what took you so long? Y. And the thing that irritates me the most is when a minister comes to the dispatch box and says we couldn't possibly have anticipated. or we don't know enough orr we have to see how this rolls out. And I go, no, we don't. We understand. We've known for a long time. It's political, it's not practical. stop pretending it's practical. And so Actually, I really welcome this moment, I really celebrate the moment. I think that the public anger about AI parental anger about social media. the fury of young people about where their jobs are going I think that's really proper It's really important And I would say right from the get go That's where my book ends up. It says we have to take democratic control back. And you know what, guys? That means you, you who are listening, not people like me who have this privileged place in Parliament. So I say bring it on. But you have been warning about the dangers that are now in the papers every single day for well over a decade. I have I have. I walked into my kitchen twenty twelve was the moment when I Smartphone became the price point that an adult might give one to a child I walked into my kitchen and there was Four fifteen year old girls not talking And I just thought, why aren't they talking? I mean, I've never seen four fifteen year old girls not talking. And then I realized they were looking at the phone. And I had this thought. it just popped in my mind and I thought, Ohh, I wonder what it's going to be like to grow up here like in my kitchen here and there And then I went Where is that That idea, that idea that there was another there at the end of the phone that I didn't know. I didn't know what it was. That changed my life because at that point I was a filmmaker. I was a film director. I lived between UK and Hollywood. I was having a great time. Thank you very much. But I picked up my camera asking myself the question, whereere was it there I made a film about teenagers in the indes real life. In real life. And by the time I got to the end of that year, because I spent hundreds of hours with kids in bedrooms and doing whatever it was they were doing. But somewhere along that, I realized that there was an absolute generational injustice And it was wrong came out in twenty thirteen, just to sort of keep thumping this drum about you having been at the very, very vanguard of the warnings. And you did, you immersed yourself in the lives of these young people. Some of the things that you unearthed in that film and that you broadcast in that film were I mean, almost unbearable. talk about child sex abuse video circulating in a primary school. we learn about someome of the things that parents had absolutely no idea that children were being exposed to, some parents Of course still don't,. And then sometimes I can't remember whether it was in that film or not Sometimes it's quite an outwardly innocuous auru that cuts to the heart of the issue. When you encountered a young girl who just said, How do they know I like red trainers, but they don't know I'm twelve Yeah, ye. I go whoa, that's the problem right there. I think that is the problem. Its like it's like there's so much sort of denial Yeah. and then at the same time promise. And you suddenly realize that they're promising this is really personalized. and then they're denying that they're having a go just at you. And you kind of go through that again and again and again. And one of my favorite ones of those is actually, you know, a lot of us who are a bit older absolutely love the internet you know, in its previous one point zero form. And we really did believe, you know, that it was going to be, you know, a place where people could actually get rid of the gatekeepers and communers, you know in a broader way and we'd have access for all of that Um And then it was a kid. I mean, this is, you know, out of the mouth of bes. you know, it was a kid who said to me I don't know why they keep on looking for technical solutions. Couldn't they just turn that shit off? Actually, that has been at the heart of my political practice ever since that a lot of what's wrong with the internet is the things that they do to make it commercial and they could, guess what? Just turn it off. They don't have to introduce, you know, a grown man like you to primary age children, you could just stop doing that. You know, you don't have to send notifications all the way through the night, keepep people awake. Sleep debt probation is torture in war. Sleep debt probation is a norm in our society now, think about that. They could just turn it off And I just think that's really, really important to think about when we hear our politicians saying, oh, not now quite uplifting as well when you look at the size of the mountain and think that it's too to even bother trying to scale. When you think that getting this genie back in the bottle is a fool's errand, actually, some of the solutions that you have come up with and continue to come up with are relatively straightforward. like you say, just flick that switch. They're not going to do it voluntarily, so pass legislation that compels them to do it. I think that's right. And I mean I do remember you six months in you know, I'd been to every school showing the film as much as I could, you know, doing that that thing because I thought If I said it loud enough, the world would understand, not realizing at that point just how much lobbying went on, how much how bought off our politicians were etcetera, etcetera. my husband sat me down and he goes, he goes Just want to check one middle aged woman against Silicon Valley. And he goes, Are you sure? Yeah? And I actually did turn around him and I went, you know Pain of consciousness, love You know, once you see something, you can't unsee it. And it is true that I didn't absolutely decide to put down my camera and become a campaigner and a politician But that's what happened. And I say that because I I find that. reallyally important. You know, in these David and Goliath situations Nually, you just need good people to start walking forward and doing They can And I think that the answers are a bit more simple than they'd have us believe. There are obvious parallels with some other issues, areren't they? like I suppose climate change most, obviously, tobacco the effort that's put into persuading people that things are fine versus the often self funded or fringe figures who are sort of standing in the middle of the crowd going, no, no, no, they're really not. they're really not. And then You just have to hope that the crowd gets bigger It makes your first sort of acclaimed film Carrie Greenham homeome but brings it into a kind of perfect perspective really that you're joining in with people and being inspired by people who were doing precisely that, who were standing in a a crowd of borderline consensus and going, no, no, this isn't good, but we'll come to that. We'll back up first all the way to the beginning, North London, nineteen sixty one. I mean, it's almost If this was in one of your scripts, you would probably send it back for being too implausible. North London, Jewish, Marxist theorist, father a mother involved in radical publishing. This is straight out of central casting people. I know. And it's funny peopleople you know often go, you know, what is your heritage? And I can just I can say I own everything you've just said in that last sentence. I love it and I'm proud of it. But my brother and sister are very, very different. And they didn't in a sense take the lessons I took. But the thing that I took from that upbringing. was my father's chant, which was live in the world as if It was a better place than it is and as if it was the place you wanted it to be And for whatever reason, That is like through me, like writing in a stick of rock If I am disheartened, if I am told that I'm an absolute idiot Nobody's ever going to listen to what I have to say I kind of go, No, this is me living in the world the way I want it to be and I am going put everything, strenuous everything into making it the world I think it should be. I'll be honest, I get a lot of Pleasure from that. I get a lot of pride from that. And you know what I get a lot of thanks and And I feel like I'm the lucky one, not the brave one How did he enact that mantra? How did he live that life So my dad, was he was a really clever man and he was a political theorist, as you said. He started a political party, He started a publishing house he but he actually was always interested in everything. So he was the first person to start publishing the whole of the play You know at the theatater, so the Royal courourt, they used to publish the program, but the whole of the playe. So the playwright got their words out. He did something called the Little Red Diary, which was diaries on different subjects. And in the various days of the day, you'd find out what the suffragettes had been up to or what the eco warriors had been up to and so on think he saw culture. Politics you know, and and fairness. you know, and reordering the political economy, All is one big thing. And I think that's maybe something that I I took from him I misread the notes when I was swotting up earlier. It described as a household shaped by books, debates, ideas and a belief that the world could be changed. I read it as a household shaped by books, diabetes ideas and a belief that the world could be ched. No diabetes in our house. to clarify, but you moved to Hull fairly young where your dad took up a post in Hull and that involved transporting the whole family Yeah, and we actually lived in a farming village in the East Riding. And I think we were, you know, we were definitely the first Jews in the village. We were the out You know, we were the incumers And my mother started up a nursery school in the village hall And that became a center for many of the women on the farms and many of the families in the village. And we ended up even when we moved, because we then went to Pakistan and then we went to London again. But even once we moved, we still had a very long term relationship with the people in that village I mean for decades A the very beginning then, that there was very little border between the theoretical and the practical. but both of your parents didn't just think about and Pontificate, they did as well Yeah, and I actually think that that's something that's quite important in the political tradition. And people I can't quite put I'm cross benchier. I'm not aligned to any party. And I work with colleagues right across the past. And I actually work with Americans on both sides of the aisle and people are quite surprised because I come from this progressive background and I go, No, I'm really sorry. My politics are the politics of making life and whoever wants to put their shoulder to that wheel, I'm in, you know, and it does make for some uncomfortable decisions sometimes. But I think that one of the things that is wrong with politics is we're so much about what everybody said. We're not half tough enough about what they did. And I think that's something that we've actually got in a loop about and we should just calm down about what everybody iss saying and start judging them on what they're doing. And I think they're coming up short. Yes. Well, you don't think anyone's going to argue with that. So primary school in how in Pakistan and in London? or how did the ages? prrimary school in in the next door village. So a village So near Beverly, just Yeah ye outside Beverly, Lockington, it's called. And then we went for a year Pakistan where my father was working on a political theory of the permanent arms economy. That was basically the idea that Pakistan was giving up all its grain by arms from America and was continually impoverished by that idea. And it's commonly held now, but at the time it was a very radical idea. So you're seeing a pattern there. Y. And then and when we were in Pakistan, we we didn't really go to school was he was working for the Fth Foundation, which is bigig think tank and somebody came in and didn't really teach us anything, but we had a wonderful time. and then we came back to North London for the last year of. What were you like as a young as a child in primary school in Lockington? I mean, did you engage? didid you enjoy it and I was shy I was a bit chunky. I was Uh I was a bit grumpy. I think I wasn't actually very well suited to being a child at all sorts of ages, in fact I am one of the few people who has enjoyed Every decade I got older has been better and better. And so I actually embrace the fact that I do get older and this is the last third of my life. I do think that it was very importantportant. to my understanding of the world I've lived in a village. I've lived in a place where I stood out because of my of my colour and the hair and so on where I was other. and I've lived in a big city where it was a real medley of people. And I think that does change. how you see communities and what you value Did you find children flipping No, I found them a bit scary. Okay. You know, they all seem so certain of themselves. They're not though. They just seem like. Same with adults. Re. Funnily enough, when I do a lot of work with children now, I've done workshops for the last fifteen years talking about tech And one of the things I say to them is just remember All adults are anxious too. And I think that they grow about six inches when I say that. I add a line to that. Actually, I've got a very similar mantra when I'm in schools, but I always add in the ones that aren't sociopaths. ' she probably they were a bit younger you child Iise. Excellent. What about friendships? Did you form friendships? It's tough to be parapathetic Yeah, no, I did. And in fact, one of the reasons I used to go back to Yorkshire was my friend Carolyn, who was my best friend and we learnted to ride together. and she is now runs a farm with her husband in Humberside still We remain friends for a long time. and I have friends from really right back at the beginning of my life when I first you know, when I was born in the first few years before we went to Yorkshire, we all were looked after in different houses by various and my best rend Now. I remember her being born because I was friends with her older sister at the time. So I do. I have very long suffering friendships, not loads, but very very important for me to feel I have seen other people's lives as I've gone on my journey. and I often think about it like, you know, when you come back from the beach and you've got the sand, all the different colours in a jar. And I think having a friendship, a long term friendship is a bit like that. You can see all the colours in the jar and sometimes You kind of wake me and you go, go, I'm not sure we'd be friends now That jar is really important, that knowing and being known It's a very visual way of thinking about friendship, isn't it? Did it become clear quite early on? I think you were late diagnosis dyslexic. so D it become wereere you aware quite early on that you had a more visual brain than others and that held you back maybe at school or? So I had this really extraordinary thing which is, you know as born with a clepp palla and I was had to have another operation when I was about eleven and I literally couldn't how I speak like this. Really? When I was ten. So that's another other ring in a way, or another outsider experience. That was huge. And in fact, I write about that in the book and I think that people have been very moved buy it because it was then that I was given a camera And it was through that camera that I saw what I describe as power I see Wh got to speak Who had to listen, who was excluded, who was included and somehow That moment never passed and because I took pictures from the age of ten, because you weren't allowed to talk for a while while you were recuperating. For a year. Yeah. I couldn't speak. And so when I arrived at at secondary school I couldn't speak I had like this I had like a harpo marks Um Little horn. Little horn and a and a pen and a little notebook to write things down And it was miserable. I mean, it was miserable. everybody tried to make it okay, but it was just miserable U You see, here it is, you know, I was given a camera You know By ten years later, I'm going to be in Hollywood. it's amazing. So it's an outsider experience, but also an acute observer of human behavior I think so. and I think that's a roundabout way of answering your question about sure which is, I think you can see And here in lots of different ways, but the one thing youve got to do is pay attention You've got to really pay attention And I think that know when we get on to all the problems of the tech world, That's one of the biggest things. They've stolen our attention So we're not really seeing each other We're not really hearing each other And we're not really noticing. There's too much noise and it's too distracted and we're drawn away into this other place And so for me, the seeing, the hearing, the noticing, the taking pictures, the making films, the politics God, that's all just one thing And everybody who looks at my life goes Why did you give up being a film director to be a politician I see it all as the same. Yes yeah, and some of the interplays provroiding a voice to the voiceless Telling stories. In politics, in documentary and in fiction, you can do those three things and in drama Was it Faye Gododwin who gave you the camera? Wasn't that the first one? Fay G Godwin gave me the camera and she taught me how to develop films and print them And that made me very popular at school because I could take everybody's photo and give them a print.. And this at a time when you know you'd have to go to boots otherwise, wouldn't you? orr you'd have to take them. mean it's not like now where you can get a camera that get online and do it through your phone and just pop in anywhere and print them. But I'm interested in that moment because there's three things going on here, isn't there? There's the attempt you're not being alienated. They're trying hard to involve you in life, which is you know a nice thing But you are by definition going to feel isolated and and removed. And it is the photography It is the camera that I think gives you your first real sense of Completeness. I don't think you'd engaged much in school. I don't think you found school easy on an academic level. No, no. and in fact Yeah, I think that's a really good way of putting it actually. I might steal that from you if you don't mind.s. Completeness I think the other word that I might use is purpose. Yeah Yeah. And so you actually see that you can be are there and useful And I think that that's a very, you know, empowering thing because, you know Over the years, you speak to lots of people and they feel very disempowered and actually or they feel like they're not the right kind of person or they feel they don't have the skills. And I think one of the things and I can tell from what you've already said, you go to lot of schools. I go to lot of schools. I speak to a lot of young people. I think one of the jobs of people like you and I who have some a seat at the table, as they call it is really to persuade people that everybody has a seat at the table You don't have to be in a bright spotlight. And I think having the camera being shy and not having a voice actually being able to contribute something that no one else could do that time was very emboldening Did M mom and dad worry about you? I mean, did they worry about your lack of academic prowess at this point or I don't really think so. I think they were too busy, they were too busy wanting to change the world for themselves. There is this expression that some of the Americans have that had similar backgrounds to me, and they were called red diaper babies. And it was basically, you know, your parents were never off a CND march, you and you're making toast at home And I don't want to put any idea out there that I was in any way deprived. But absolutely, that was not That was not their concern. I do remember my father saying to me, he said, So long as you travel and you read, you will educate yourself And I thank him for that because I actually ended up leaving school just around my sixteenth birthday. Just before that though, there's quite a seminal Portugal, isn't it? Oh with the camera in place. This is the stuff of legend this. I love this story. So So my father, as we've already established, was a sort of a theoretical Marxist. But as the Portuguese revolution was bubbling up, the comrades from Portugal rang him up and said, know, Mike, will you come here and give us some teachings And so we and this is this is so typical of of my childhood. So we ended up going on family holiday to a pre you know, to a bubbling Portugal. And my father's in, you know, talking, We're on the beach and then suddenly It is the day and the revolution breaks out, as it were. I'm there with my camera And Did you rush towards the action? know what you were doing? Absolutely. I want to be in the thick of it. Well, as night fell Literally all the farmwers came in to Lisbon on their trucks with their pitchforks. And fires were starting everywhere in the city and everyone congregated in front of what must have been a parliamentary building. I have a vision of it in my head still I don't know what it was. And I started taking pictures because That's all I ever did. I mean, that's all I ever did from when I had a camera Until, you know, well into my teens. That's all I ever. You was thirteen I was thirteen. thirteen years old. I was thirteen years old and I had the pictures of the revolution in Lisbon. and because my parents were publishers and because there was a lot of magazines and journals at that time A lot of them asked me for there for the pictures. And so at the age of thirteen, I was not only the girl with the camera, but I was published. How did that make you feel H. I mean gorgeous. Yeah. Gorgeous. and And again, it's something that I try and discuss with children and young people. And I go, you know, it's really, very often That stuff that gets you to the good stuff. And so when you're in trouble, you got to turn it around and go, what's the advantage? I mean You know, I was born with a cleft palate. I had an operation. I was given a camera It defined the rest of my life. It's a good life Next stop the photographer's Gallery in London. You're still barely fourteen, but the photojournalist Eve Arnold and is impressed by what she sees of your work And you have to tell her that you're far too young to work for her, I think, at this point It was honestly, that was that was probably the most and eventful day of my whole life. and there have been some. there really have. But the reason that I say that was You know, she in she actually lived in Mayfair, although she was American. She lived right in the attic. so you had to go up like eons of stairs and she stood there like this famous vision at the top of the stairs and I went panting up and when I got to the top, she said to me, You know, if you're going to be a photographer, you can't be fat. Can you imagine that now? You know? Anyway, she looked through my things and she said, do you want to work for me? And I went, well. go to school tomorrow, I'm going to be fourteen tomorrow. And she howled. I mean she howled. but on my sixteenth birthday She rang me up, she said This is Eve Arnold. Would you like to come and work for me And I left school that day. What do you think she saw Well, No modesty allowed. No modesty allowed. I think she saw that I was curious and I think she saw I was looking at the world in my own individual way Yeah U and I think you know, those two things It's really hard because she did, I mean, I worked for for a couple of years. I went travelling, I came back, I went to film school, all of that, but I remained a really close friend of Eve Arnold until she died at the age of ninety nine And so she is so important to me. I don't know what she saw that day versus what she saw the rest of our relationship But what I will say to you is what I learnt from her which is the things that have really, really been the crutches for the rest of my life. So I learned from her the work was never done And she used to make me stay sometimes If we were working late, she put a bed on the sofa And then next morning we'd start back again. I'm sixteen years old working like a dog, I saw pictures of China before it was open From Russia when it was still Soviet in its thing, you know, I saw pictures of Marilyn Monroe that nobody else has ever seen. I had an experience of work that was so inspiring and so sort of enlivening. That's what I thought work had to be And she also taught me how to travel light and pack and pack a bag. And she always used to say, because I had to pack her bag for her. She said, I carry heavy cameras so I want light clothes, but I always need something to eat at a palace and to run from a mob Yeah. Wow. That's how I pack my bag. I absolutely love that. That's sensational. Sensational. G to the palace and run from a mg It's a sort of foreign correspondent. Yeah, actually that's really true. Isn't it? That's. She also used to say something else, but it involves a swear word. You're allowed to swear, Beben, but I appreciate you may not want to. She was also instrumental, I think, I think in moving your focus slowly or quickly, I don't know from still photography to movies Yeah, she was. She looked all the time I was working for her. She insisted I took pictures of my own. and she worked me so hard, I sometimes used to say, when am I supposed to? She said, That's your problem. But she used to look at my pictures and she said, listen, there's one observation I'm going to make You take series of pictures and you keep on adding captions. in my view, that's film And that was it That was all she said you know, she she was I think I think she was five foot. I'm not sure, maybe she wasn't even quite five foot, but she was the scariest woman you'd ever meet. and all she needed to do was say that and you knew what she meant So the next stage becomes fairly I mean, it's not easy to get into the National film and television schoolch, particularly for a woman at that time. but That was next. a camera woman. That was next and I will ever be grateful to the film school. In fact, and The application had three pages of education because it was a postgraduate course and then a statement And so I wrote a letter and I said, I'm not filling in your form because I have no education and it'll show me up badly. I said, But this is why I want to come. And I was given a interview because I said so many things in my statement that they just wanted to know if they were true, that those were experiences that I'd had and so on. And they told me in retrospect that I absolutely got in from that moment, but I had to then go into a whole pro. G through the motions. So if I'd met you then I said what sort of films do you want to make when you graduate? What would you have said I would have probably said documentaries, I would have probably said uh, things that You know, really made the world different. And I think I would have probably said you know, to make sure everybody has a voice. and And in fact, it was when I went to film school and the first term And I was absolutely shocked that there were loads of people who wanted to go into advertising. and there were some other people who wanted to kind of make bond. Nothing wrong with a bond I love a bond, but you know, not my thing. And I was the only woman in the cinema in the cinematography department and They all seemed to have come out of the womb with a camera in their hand because I didn't know what I was doing. And it was all of those things that drove me to Greenham. I met someone in the canteen and I said to Amanda Richardson, who then became a very eminent documentary filmmaker in her own right. I met Amanda and I went Listen, I'm going to Greenham' coming for the weekend. willill you do the sound, I'll do the camera. I need to work out which end to look. And that was the beginning of Carri Greenham home. And that weekend turned into seven months, I think What were you looking for Do that's a bad question, isn't it Becauseuse you don't look for things when you're somewhere like that. you just wait for things to present themselves to you I think or not I think I I I sort of thought I was just going to practice But what happened that day, it was the day that thirty thousand women came to put their arms around the base and and You know, this is where my background kicks in because you know, I've probably been on more marches than most people by that age. And I'm looking at it and I'm going, these women are serious. You know, they have literally got thirty thousand people. out of nowhere, remember pre social media, you know. that's an amazing bit about that whole episode, isn't it iss the organisation, the logistical side of it, let alone the principles and the ideals. The logistics are unthinkable. It's fantastic though. and you know, there was a There was a pay phone near the base And one woman or few women would go and each woman would ring ten people. and tell those women to ring ten people, to tell those women to ring ten people and you get thirty thousand. It was remarkable and I wanted to stay and I'd found something I was interested in. You also said it was the first time the world made sense Well, here you are living in a community with whom' aims you agree. And I think, you know, I mean Listen, I listen to your show quite often and you know in amongst all the very specific conversations you have and the exchanges that you have. There's also a man raging that the world isn't a better place. And I hear you. You know, I'm in the car, I'm at home, I'm make my, whatever it is. know I think that we all experience a frustration that what is so obvious, what is so obvious? It should be fairer. What is obvious that kids need a bit more care than adults. What is so obvious that if some people are so insanely rich that it actively impoverishes the rest. It's not okay and people will be upset. You know that actually what is obvious is that we are all human, whatever language we speak and whatever colour we are. You know, I am sorry it's not diffifficult So we are all enraged small and big ways You know, depending on your politics, depending on your life, depending on your circumstances. M Greenham, there was a clear enemy It was the nuclear weapons And there was some clear sort of you effort to shut us up, which was the police and the government of the day. And then there are these women who are acting out of just sheer principle. And that was the moment where I thought, I don't have to be, you know, I don't have to have no view In fact It's really important I do have a view because I was watching all the media come down and ridicule them And I thought, no, these are principlple Oh generous women And frankly, I don't care if they smell because they live in a tent or who they sleep with. And I want to help them tell their story. I want to tell their story. At what point do you realize, if you hadn't already, perhaps you did at school, at film school I'm quite good at this. No, I've never realised that. An inkling then. No allow an inkling. Allow an inkling. I I you know what? I really I'm not I'm not being false hest. I've I've had a really incredible life and I've really worked very hard at it. I do remember later on, when I get to Hollywood, standing outside Shirley McLan's door. She opens the door. I remember in the back of my mind going, if they could see me now you know so you know The grumpy ugly girl who liked a nineteenth century novel suddenly seemed to be in a very cool spot. So I'm not going to say I'm inhuman. abbsolutely, I have those moments. But I don't know that people are good at things you know, ever feel good enough because it's a bit of a journey, isn't it? I mean, you know, And you can't ever think you're the finished article because because then you may reaching. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. so I just don't think good and bad did it for me, but I So kind of insanely and according to my children, embarrassingly, interested in everybody and everything. I suppose there's a natural progression then from Greenham to the city, isn't there? And you make global gamble quite soon after the Green and C. was that the next big project or? It was actually just I was leaving film school and I absolutely needed to earn a living and this journalist asked me to do it. It wasn't what I was thinking of doing. There's a theme though, isn't there? There's a sense of the wealth and the money and the people out behaving without withith impunity and without regulation. Yeah. Do you know what, J? I write about global gamble in my book and I had to watch it very recently because I was quoting the head of a bank. before the crash And I think that you know, I really want to say this out loud because and I talked to the journalist actually who worked with me on it. this is years, years and years before the crash. So we're talking about the mid eighties we made this And we have on national television, in this program A banker saying, more or less, this is going to end in trouble But there's so much money to be made Yeah. I just want to emphasise that because I think a lot of what we're seeing now is in plain sight. Yeah Yeah Yeah. This is not Den. We know what's going on And that's why the political class are so shameful for allowing it because they don't have imagination and they don't have the strength to think of doing things differently. But I was amazed when I saw a gllobal gamba. It was haaunting. It was It was. I go so I knew I would like not to be right about these things. I'd like people to actually wake up and say You know what W AI, with these huge investments, with trillion dollar IPO's, you know what That is going to cost my children Their house, maybe me my job downown the line, someone's going to be jumping out of a window because they've gone broke You know, these are real life impacts. We've got to stop pretending. Well, tell me a bit about the second bit of the title of the new book, then How How to fight back. Yeah, what are the prescriptions that you offer? One of the things that the book does and to be honest, you know, now I'm doing bit of advertising for myself. I mean, it is partark memoir. There are some, I hope, very funny bits. There are bits about, you know me confronting Mark Zuckerberg, me fighting with Nick Clegg, you know, there are some very, very sad bits and there's some bits where I work with the undercover cops and they're harrowing Yeah, you know, properly. That stuff gets inside your head and you can't get it out Yeah sometimes. So so I'd like to say this is a good read. it's not just all policy. For sure stuff. Yeah, yeah yeah. But when I get to the end, I go, look Obviously, these are huge structural things that we have to do with politics and regulation. And here's twelve things that we have to do. and the kinds of things I'm not going to do all twelve. You know, but the kinds of things that would transform our lives in the UK One is if we insisted on local billing for companies We're spending money. They're extracting it over to Silicon Valley It's our job losses. So it's not that efficient actually guys. It's not efficient to put UK people out of work and then have a huge welfare bill. and then let those geezers not pay tax. So that's one We have to reconceive they how we talk about tech. They are products productros and guess what Products can't go into the system without being tested independently, without meeting standards, without having consumer rights and safety. We must get tech exceptionality out of the way. So there's two examples. So I go through in absolutely clear detail what any government should do immediately Vis are you tech There are loads of people who over the years have said, what should I do? And so I actually finish the book with a list of things that you can do and you can do it for yourself for your own use kids for their use. you can do it in your job, your profession, your profion, you know, your union, Whver it is, it helps you. It sort of gives you a sense of the questions you can ask and the things you can demand just as an individual And then it ends up saying something really obvious. and I will you know, I did a live event last week and there's about five hundred people in the room and I go I go gave their vote on the basis of their political parties policy How many hands?one. None five hundred people. Now tech, That is nuts. That is nuts. And I say that and I think this is what's really important. So I go, Do you know what? How come the Triple Lock becomes you the political hot potato because it's on the doorstep? Well, tech, we have all been interneted. Every aspect of our life, private public has been extracted by the tech bros. whyy are we not voting? according to how they're going to behave And that's where I end up. So you know, what I hope the book does is it goes If you think you don't understand, here's an easy way to understand. If you think you're outraged, listen to this because there's a lot I don't back. I don't open back. And then I think If you think you can't do anything, that's not true. Here's what we can do in that I'm trying to say We deserve good teag Tech can do good things for us But we absolutely have to stop being used by those tech bros. It's a really anti big tech, not anti tech A bit confusing then back up. that you went off the campaign in crusading. filmmaking course and dived into the world of fiction, the world of drama, with originally with Droom, I think Yeah. And then The massive life changer for you was the adaptation of Oranges are Not the On Fruit, which is an incredible film. They're beautiful. The loveve is the power to destroy and the power to be destroyed. Why? So when I was at film school, as we said, I did cinematograpy and then some of the other students asked me to work on their films and they asked me because after seven months at Greenham, I was the one who could hand hold the camera the best. Yeah, of course. And so it was a start an extension of your arm by this point. Honestly I didn't know how to walk without. And in fact, I slept in the car in the mini seven months because the insurance for the camera meant we had to behind a locked door. and obviously at Greenham Common, there were no locked doors. So no, I was really good at that. and And I was doing a film for another student and it invol being in the middle of a of the most enormous courtyard and doing a three hundred sixty and I'm spinning round, spinning round. And it was the most stupid film and the most stupid shot. And I just thought, o I could do better than this. and I just decided not to be the person who other people pushed around, but to be the person whose voice whose idea I was going to you know, I was going to manifest in the world and And it's really funny because you asked me something earlier and then you corrected yourself. You went, what were you looking for? And then you went, No, no, you don't look for anything. I cannot tell you how right you are becausecause I think I am someone who just starts walking and then subsequently goes, Ohh, well, I did it because. And actually it's almost always because. I think there's a better idea, and I'm trying to work out what it is I suddenly thought drama as an opportunity paint this world better than it was. goes all the way back to that idea. I thought, o We get to make up our own worlds so we can show how it should be or we can show how it feels to this group of people. And in doing that, we're bringing everyone along. And so I have to put my hand up here and go I don't think at the time, I had that idea That feeling And this is, I suppose the period of your life where your work will be known people listening, kicking off with oranges are not the only fruit. an indication of the impact that that had along with Antonia and Jane is that Steven Spielberg and George Lucas are on the phone. Yeah Yeah. How about that then? Yes, they arees they do. And Hollywood is literally Beckoning Yeah, yeah. I mean, quite quickly this happened, didnn't it? quickly. I was still in my twenties when I went to Hollywood and I was actually in post production on my on my first studio movie when I had my thirtieth birthday. Yeah. So I was insanely lucky I had They really I was insanely lucky. First of all, those guys paid for my ticket out While I was there, I then met another king of Hollywood, a man called Larry Gordon, who ran twentieth century Fox, who if I might say is now ninety and was here in London this last weekend and we had lunch And we then had dinner. and he has the best stories I have ever heard about Hollywood. So I was very lucky in that some of these guys just saw something in my work that was other Mm. againgain, you know, I think that what P. saw was a sort of a different view and an independent view. and they started offering me what work. And again, you know, you said earlier, you said you know, how do you feel about being good I don't know that I've ever felt good but o Boy was I happy when I used to drive up on the twentieth century lotck? And the barrier would go up and they go, goodood morning, Miss Kidron. And I had my own name in my parking lot. I mean, honestly, it was like, you know, for a little girl from North London, I was like pumping the air there. But you know I wouldn't change it for the world. I had a fantastic period of my life making big commercial movies with big movie stars and It was It was an extraordinary time I think I always felt pull Yes of doing something else. And so I got into a bit of a habit of making a movie and then making a documentary, making a movie making a documentary. and that's sort of how I spent my time until I actually made in real life and never made another film scene. I mean some of the films that you made during that period include the Bridget Jones film, The Edge of Reason Murder didid Cinderella for channel four, I mean, I'm just pointing out that people listening to this, everyone would have seen something that you did. Yeah. T W Fu is the one that everybody yeah. it's That one is just such a cult movie. Yeah it is The daughters love it. Oh reallyally? amazing. And then as you say, and then it's time for in real life, which changed everything. Or at least revert took you back to where you started in a way. Is that a fair comment? I think it is. I mean, you don't always know that's what you do. Of course you don't But but but absolutely, I think it It turned me into a campaigner. And so you know, you can imagine this moment, or I end up I end up doing that film, you know, really just walking forwards and thinking this is interesting, then thinking this is a generational Um, uh, you know, a crime, a crime against a generationalational. It's an injustice. That's what I thought. and Okay. Did people think you were mad Absolutely mad. They thought I was a middle aged woman, knew rock and roll, didn't get it. Moral panic. Moral panic, the lot. And also I was a bit naive, right? Because I had just been put into the Lords. I had a How did that happen briefly Briefly, twenty twelve. When I was still a filmmaker, I set up something called Film Club which became international Lindsy Mackke, this was the after schoolool. Yeah afterfter schools club, in fact, during schools sometimes, but basically watching film to educate kids about the world and it became a huge success. It's now available in all state schools.' very happy about that And I think that the Gvernment of the day thought I could maybe be really good on film, on education and so on. putut me in. So there I am You know, new peia just made this film. I've got a Hollywood phone book. you know, no longer so shy. And I tried to talk to the tech companies, I tried to talk to politicians, I tried to talk to the media Honestly No one was interested. It was just literally this was you know Our future was the internet. Everybody progressive thought that we were in the middle of the Arab Spring, whatever it was. Everybody you know consonservative thought it was just business doing its thing. I mean I just honestly, could not get arrested And it's incredible isn't it? It's like anxiety dream way Yeah really. And so I did this mad thing and it's again, you know, keep on walking forward. No one was listening. so I somehow managed to say in public, I would visit any school with my film and talk to the kids And I went everywhere. Honestly, Jane, I went to Brazil, I went to Germany, I went to Denmark, I went to Manchester, Glasgow, all over like. I went to any school that invited me. and as I talked to teachers and as I talk to kids I knew I was right They knew. I was right I knew I was right and that was it. I was, you know, I was on the battle. And the Silicon Valley figures knew you were right, but they We're going to make an awful lot of money before it all ended in tears Exactly. Exactly. and I think You know, I take two things from this You know, onene is we do have an emergency. Yeah, we do right now. There is a better Fara um, you know, Honestly, more relaxing world that we can have with technology that will make your kids life, your life the nation better Yeah. I've just come this morning from a meeting with computer scientists who are looking about how to judge sovereign AI in the UK, actually things that are built here. science here, data here, you know, really, really down in the engine room from the engine room all the way to the earlier part of our discussion about where you put your phone at night These things M absolutely central to what happens to modern life over the next decades. How do you account for lethargy as opposed to opposition? What do you think explains Again, I'd probably cite climate change as a similar phenomenon where people are kind of conscious of how scary things are and how dangerous things are but can't quite muster up the energy needed to resist or to engage. Okay. so it's a brilliant question. I mean the short answer to the question is, you know, there are three villains in the piece, one is big tech, one is a political class that's too bought off and the other is lobbying, which actually is so pervasive. And I think if I'm proud of anything in the book, it's the lobbying chapter because loads of people have come back to me and said, I had no idea. So I'm really glad if I can give you an idea of what lobbying looks like, then you'll see how how the lethargy is papered with money. Buts I think there's something else that your particular listeners will be interested in, which is I had a chat with someone who was theory, if I could say You can't get any higher up in the security services in the US. And they were saying to me, that they were looking at a piece of research. They were looking at why government doesn't work And they did a really interesting piece of work. And what it showed was that until the mid eighties, in America Congress, the Senate People used to vote according to the interests of their area Kentucky you know, u California, New York What would be good for their constituents And they were ruthless because they wanted to be re elected. since the mid Aes They have consistently voted for what suits the top ten percent of earns Democracy is no longer representative. It is bought Gu are trying to get in power and stay in power They are not seeking to represent us And when people look their own choices I ask them L that Right? And I'm going to say something so outlandish, which is I don't care anymore. Yeah whether they're left right or in the mid. I get that. Yeah. What I want to know is Are they independent Are they for me Yeah. And I don't mean me in a tiny way. I mean me in my neighbourhood, yeah That is what it is. And so I think. The answer to your question is we've been Bullet and and and combination of bullied inter distraction, so we're all worrying about the wrong thing. ye. We're all sort of just busy scrolling and worrying about how thin we are. And at the same time You know, the people who' supposed to represent us have given up that job And they're representing the other guys. And in that toxic mess comes through Five companies that seek to rule the world. Literally. literally And I'm not interested in that world. And you know if I'm sitting here, if I'm writing a book, that's why I'm writing the book. And you know, I'd had a brief window of hope a few years ago when I felt that Twitter was becoming a force for good in the battles that you describe. and then along came Eon Musk Yeah Yeah. and that's something I just let me get it out there because I do do, you know, I do do some explaining why why social media is not freedom of speech. But you know, if you see what Twitter has become because of a single person Yeah. thenen you have to accept That is his freedom, not ours Yeah And I think that we have very foolishly and you know, handed over something that was public And various and pluralistic and irritating in part. Of course. You know, TV, broadcasts, newspapers, whatever And we've handed it all over. and now we don't have a public square. we've got a private square and poled that is policed and is actually manipulated Yes, and everything that we see is sort of paid for. And I think people don't realize that. You know, it's like, you know, we pay for prominence, we pay for reach. you know, we pay for our blue tick. you know And there's a section in the book and it says you know it says we can't afford it We can't afford free And there's a little section and it explains why free actually are imprisonment You know. And in fact, you know It also, I hope, in a helpful way, also says, you know what all this growth int tech It's not growth transfer Walk down your high street Look how miserable it is and then look at what Amazons's made. Yeah. Look at the problems at the post office. And then you'll see part of that actually comes from the Amazon delivering five times a day. You know there's a lot of things in the democratic ecosystem and even in the sort of, dare I say twentieth century capitalist ecosystem that actually spread the risk, spread the load and spread the benefit. And it's all being extracted in this very, very vicious model is openly saying We want to be the one, we want to have control. and what's more, we're going to take masks too. So I really think this is something that your listeners in particular might want to get a little bit You knowing to. I think you're absolutely right. Final question, Will you ever make another for I don't think Ill make another film you know, as I said earlier Absolutely thrilled with that bit of my life I'm really lucky. I'm actually married to a playwright and a film musical writer and so on. So I've got a little bit of one foot in the glamour of it all. if it is glamorous, he would say it isn't And a lot of my friends obviously are from that world. So I love it. I'm a user. I'm a trustee on a number of different cultural institutions. But you know what? it has been privilege You haven't asked me about whether I support the House Lords and so on, but it has been a privilege to be aross bench Per I think that So long as that privilege lasts, it is my job to back us on that Red bench and fight for these things that have been lost in the mix and until You know, when we get proper representation I'll stand down Well, I don't know how to respond to that because you know, I quite like proper representation, but I want to continue enjoying your contributions. And you know and this contribution is up there with the best of the ones that you've already made in your life. Bee and Kidruns users tech took control and how to fight back is out now and listen, just byy it Seriously, buy it and read it Be and Kidren, thank. Thank you This has been a global production