Rewiring Britain and Future Ambitions

Granger knows when you're a procurement manager for an office park You're not managing one building, you're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners Light's about to fail, filters ready to clog, HVac on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind Count on Granger for quality products, easy reordering, and twenty four seven support Call one eight hundred Granger, click Ganger d. com or just stop by Granger. For the ones who get it done. This is a global production. Hello James here. I think the reasons for doing this are obvious, but I thought you might like to listen to either for the first time or again the full disclosure that I did with Andy Burnham in twenty twenty two. I don't need to tell you why he is at the top of the news agenda this weekend, but it's probably a case to be argued for you not knowing quite as much about him as you might like to I'm here to fix that Hello and welcome to Full Disclosure, a podcast project designed to let me spend a lot more time with interesting people than I would ever get on my radio programe. And this week's guest, in many ways, I'm surprised you haven't been on before, Andy Byon. Come on your radio program, if you invited me., but wen't get an hour together. and I have invited you on the radio programe, but let's not start with controversy U a conflict. Let's start instead at the very beginning, which is fififty two years ago In Antree in Lancashire. That's right. It was Lancashire, then. Liverpool Lanks. I say that doesn't sit right, doesnt it? I know, have to read That's I read it twice. Oh, no, no, that's my birth certificate says that. And it's a troubling fact when you're the mayor of Greater Manchester to be born in Liverpool, but I was, North Liverpool, Etonian All of that. So yeah, I was born in a place called the Old Rome. U Mumum and dad both work for what was called the old post office, but they did the sort of telecom side of the old postice they met at McGull telephone exchange not far off But then when I was one, my dad got a job in Manchester. Right And they moved halfway So you've always had a foot in both efinitely I'm, you know, I'll just be honest, I I too honest I spent more time in my youth in Manchester given what was going on in the music scene in the eighties and the nineties. but I was always back to Liverpool for football reasons But I love both cities and there's no point saying anything else I do can't, can you? I do I what's your favorite child? The is a bit like that. I mean, I would go Manchester just because you know, I did spend more time there as a teenager, but you know, the two places are great and you know, they so complelimenting. they're almost the same place in many ways A happy home clearly God, unbelievably so. I read one interview when I was getting ready for this when your mum and dad were as much a part of the interview as you were, it was clear the bantter and there Oh God, yeah. Really lovely to. Oh yeah, I mean, they've just been the main state, my mum and dad, but also my brothers Nick and John, you know, the five of us has been as tight knit always, you know, and all the travails I've been through, you know, they We've always navigated them all together. Competitive were you? The three of you? Oh God, ye absolutely. you know, yeah, didn't hold back on the sport, football and cricket. It wasn't football exclusively And I was I always remind them I wasn't the best footballer. I was definitely the best cricketer. I could batter both of them at cricket. and Yeah, had a modicum of success as a cricketer. Irish Catholic family. or Irish Catholic background. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. When I was culture S secretary Liverpool Library did they offered to do research My family tree, which I didn't, you didn't No at the time, to be honest, we knew on my mum's side there was Irish heritage But when it came back, it was amazing to see how much names, Irish names that I didn't know I was connected to Kelly, Finnamore and all these Irish ancestors who came over to work on the docks in the late nineteenth century. and Church was church part of childhood Mat. I'm afraid. Yeah, it was. I I say I'mfraid just because I was the old I knowic that you went to two Catholic schools, both of your primary school Yes. Uter boy.. Yes. Yeah, everybody who's done that. they know what that's I have as well. Yeah. well, you know what that involves, James. and You know, catechism days, those were, but, you know, I u I I kind of look back on that as kind of being an era when the Catholic Church was a little different actually. and we had Derek Warlock who was our archbishop. And it was an era of Catholic social teaching. the emphasis was on on the let's say the more economic side of things and it changed to more the the didentity issues if you like later down the line, you end up telling like being forbidding rather than being P improving Exactly, deffinitely there was a big change to really My parliamentary years, I often I found myself at odds with the church. whereereas in you the early part of my life, you know, they often were kind of forming my future politics. I was about to ask that because you put it like that and you think back to that sense of injustice almost that you get in the sort of Catholic teachings that you're talking about, you know The eye of the needle or the old woman who put a last join in the ket they are politically formative, aren't they? Aly so. I've always said that. you know, and some people react when you say that, but for me, no, it was the It was the kind of how do you enact what they're telling me in this thing called the catechism Where o, well that is what labour stands for. you know mean that's the way I always do me too, although I've never really that before actually No honestly. I can't just throw a theorifher around. I've got my early political opinions as well. Completely. And so you know I never and to be honest, when I was at those Catholic schools, I mean, The vast majority of the staff were kind of labour leaning people and encourage me in that direction What were you like at school? I'm just thinking there's not much trickle down economics in the Bible, is there? There's not a great de. Not a great deal. So what was I like? I kind of always you know, maybe this is, you know, something that Some of your listeners will relate to I had to walk that line between being in with the lads and the in crowd getting your work done. Okay. did come from? Where did that consciiousness come from? Just my mum and dad who hadn't been to university said or they wanted me not primary school, they weren't. I mean, really? But you were aware of. It kind of started to say that you stay in education and you know we didn't, but you should And so that was kind of, you know, and I know always quuite good, you know, in terms of like parents evenings and things. I was always getting, you know good reports. but being in the Northwest in the nineteen eighties, you know, you kind of had You know, a lot of distractions. Yeah, a lot of distractions and a lot of, you know, kind of u peer pressure and you know you wanted to be one of one of the lads as well. and let's focus on primary school a little bit fast before we get on to the distractions that you encountered in your teenage years. So I'm thinking I'm seeing a kid who was conscientious In class teachers probably quite likeked you, but you could hold your own in the playground, good good at the football, good at the cricket Did you excel? were you a scholar? Were you near the top of the class as it were? Yeah. ye. I think I was always there or thereabouts So you knew you were clever. Yeah, I knew I could, you know with what was thrown at me from a work point of view always wanted to more than anything excel on the So if I met you at eleven and said, what do you want to be when you grow up, you' just said I want to play for Everton. Correct. Yeah.. When did you realize you weren't going? notot long after. The cricket dream stayed alive for longer. really Yeah, it did. it did. I Lancashire Yeah. And I did play for Lancashire schoolchoolboys. I played three times at Old Trafford. So you're in Wisdon, probably. Somewhere. Yeah ye you are. did I was a twelfth man for Lancashire Schoolboys under fifteen level and I think that was probably the highest I got to. I I did play across the of Lancashhire, Cheshire Leagues and yeah, I was the Cheshire Association young player of the Ye year in nineteen eighty five and were a. Evert were Champions They were best te in Europe at the time. they were Helson Dedday. And then secondary school. so you're kind N not an unduly serious child, but you are You've got a plan. I mean or at least you've got a sense of direction in your life from your mum and dad. sort of. I mean, I kind of was doing okay at secondary school, but as that my middle teenage years I did kind of want to be in with the in crowd and I kind of was going a bit astrayiddle middle years secondary school And I never forget a math teacher saying to me that I got in the O level set, which we used to have in those days by the skin of your teeth So GCE as opposed to CSE. I did O levels that is GC they GCE as opposed to CSE, which was the O level. had CSEs and GCE which they merged didn they Yeah But I did I was one of the last years to do the old O level and I just literally scraped in and the O level set by a little bit of, you know, a bit of looking at the people's work in the in the the exams. I mean, so I did I luckily got in, but I realized I'd come quite close to not getting in And I think that did have the effect of making me focus a bit more And yeah, and then better in my O levels than I expected to. Right. And it was at that point that I thought, okay, well I can go to university And that would be a first for your family O could your brother let Nick had gone. But he kind of not got his first choice and he got into surrey University. and yeah, but hed gone. so he'd sort of sort of trod the path. But then yeah, then I came after. There's already a sense of horizons and not being brought up in a way to know your place or to think that you would just follow the same path that your parents had followed. That's politically formative as well. You talked about aspiration on one of the occasions you ran for leadeader of the Labour Party. It's a weird word politically aspiration, isn't it? Be I the rest of them are using it a lot now as well. I'm really comfortable with always having in fact I was pioneering aspirational socialism when when I stood for a Labour Leader in twenty ten because Obsity as well I was all about, but it's what we were all about in the Northwest. And it's actually what Manchester is about, if you kind of take it to modern Manchester or the way Manchester's always been you know, people that off They're ambitious, you know people want to get on. And it's true of anyone really growing up in the Northwest, you want the best you want to feel like you're going somewhere, but you never walk on by on the other side and you want everyone to have the chance to be the best they can be and to be supported. So it's kind of I would say it's a very much a sort of a U Northwest cultural thing to believe in that. And also pushing against authority or unjustified authority as well. How conscious were you of that? I fell in love in Manchester a bit later in life. I'd been at school in Yorkshire and ended up When all my posthmates went to go, I ended up in Talon Come Hardy. I'm not quite sure how that happened. But I fell in love with, you know, the history of Manchester, the Ellen Wilkinson, the Peter Lew, all of that. Were you conscious of that growing up? It definitely was. yeah, absolutely, M. Mum and Dad would talk about about that kind of kind of thing and you know the history of Manstter is inspiring, isn't it? It really that point of view I mean, the story that I often relate now in my current role is the cotton workers of ' eighteen sixty two who voted to refuse to handle slave pit cotton. Black Lives Matter, one hundred and sixty years ago. And you know, that is something that I kind of always pay a lot of attention to. know that commitment to equality is real and it's been passed down and, you know, when you're the mayor of a city region of that kind of heritage, you know, you've got to take that take that very seriously But for me in terms of those formative years, you know I was going Everton home and away through the nineteen eighties when you know we were having all of that success. We have the biggest thing in my life in that period was Hillsborough which then came on to be a of defining thing for me in my professional life. But yeah, when I well, how to put it Tox theos side I was very conscious of in the early eighties, eleven years old, but I didn't know anybody involved You go to the mid eighties, the minor strike. I got close to knowing people involved because people's dads who I was at school with were out on strike. Yeah. and we used to go past psyc collolery every day on the way to school. so I kind of had a kind of feel for that one. But Hillsborough was about my friends from my family peopleople I knew were at that match and then they came home to the pub where I was in that Saturday night, you know and traumatized and So that And then when the thing started that it was, you know, Lverpool sportters to blame. I mean, that kind of radicalize me, I guess. I was nineteen, I was at Cambridge. I was at home in my first holidays I'd been in the Easter holidays withith friends, I've been at the other semifinal And not you know we'd all been through this trauma And I got back to Cambrage for the summer term, it was like it hadn't happened Yeah. I was with people who what that? I was at H and The sense of this country being two worlds was really honestly, you know for me. I feel all my life I've been struggling to relate one England to another. That's I've been trying to walk between the two and often not doing it very successfully and early as well. I mean to have that personal investment in Hillsboro, that personal involvement drives that home For a lot of people, it's possibly been quite a recent realisation that there are two England that there are two Britainons that the divisions are not accidental. When you use the word radicalised, are we talking about some form of ruling class that you became or establishment that you became radicalised against. orere we talking about something subtler than that I just was to me, it took me into the political sphere. You know, I didn't do politics at university because That's like it was a class of people that I didn't feel I belong to. There was political ambition thenact time. I was a labour member, but To the extent I had any exposure with it, it just looked like to me that people from the same playing at being on both sides is how it looked like to. Surely not. So I didn't kind of go back to the one or two meetings I went to Um It was the experience of going through that event when I was at university. Also that on graduation, my dad had said to me, when I was only I about going to Cambridge and he said, Oh, no, no, no, you've got to go, you've got to go, you can't turn it down. It will just open all of these doors for you and you'll just walk out of university into any job you wanted I always say to him, you know It didn't happen because I graduated and waited for all these offers to land from the BBC and whoever And they didn't come And I was back at home doing my first job as an unpaid reporter on the Middleton Guardian North Manchester And I had friends I was at university with walking into the BBC, walking into the Observer And that was class. It was purely that they parents were connected to people. They could make a phone call. they Yeah. knock on a door. Yeah Granger knows, when you're a procurement manager for an office park You're not managing one building, you're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners Light's about to fail, filters ready to clog, HVac on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind Count on Granger for quality products, easy reordering and twenty four seven support Call one eight hundred Granger, click Ganger d. com or just stop by Granger. For the ones who get it done. jump forward a bit, and obviously we're going to talk a lot about Hillsborough Why are you Well fzz of all Tell me about when the teacher said to you You should be aiming for Cambridge, Burnham. I mean it came by a parents night at first. My mom and dad came home for a parents night And they said that Mr. Harrington, the English teacher had mentioned Cambridge, and he wanted to talk to me about it And I just said, no, no, no, no, that wouldn't be me. And that's when my dad started, Oh Godd, it will open all these doors. And Wh? wouldn't it be you? Just because it was like brideshead revisiting? Yeah. But my impressions of were just I thought, well, I won't fit in there. And I was kind of right to be honest with you. because I really struggled my first year. you know impmoster syndrome all my life to some degree or other. and you know I had it massively in my first year at Cambridge. I was waiting for the Listen, we have made a mistake and we don't want you to feel, you know well, you know, here's the door and, you know, even with your A level results in your back pocket and all that. Yeah. Yes, it was just, you know, the way I was describing it was I just was exposed to sort of kind of an environment that I know nothing of my school had prepared me for it. Everything in my school would have prepared me for that. So I find this fascinating because our backgrounds aren't that different up until the point that I went to private school. my dad was on a Yorkshire Regional newewspaper when he was fifteen. but that That's why parents do it to give you that false confidence. and I think you clocked Not if not false, you clock that it was actually clothes that people put on this confidence, it's not something that's innate or something that you're born with. Well, it took me two years to work that out. You know I say that when I first arrived in Cambridge, I'd never seen confidence. Were you frightened? I mean it was intimidating for certain. And you know in the world I was in You wouldn't have dreamt of said I want to go to Cambridge, I want to be a member of Parliament because you just got slap. you'd be r I mean, you know, you just so you wouldn't have ever spoken of your your own mion. whereereas all of a sudden I was confronted by people who speak in the most confident way. it took me A good two years to work out they were talking complete rubbish, but it sounded so good.. It sounded. And they would not think twice about telling you that they fully intended to be Prime Minister one. And you know that was quite hard to kind of come to terms with that You know, I I do think it's I would, you know always comeb back to that interview process. That's the thing that You know, how can you go even now from a state school into that interview process. I was offered a glass of sherry for God's sake at St. Catherine's College I failed that interview. No bloody wonder. was in a a kind of wood paneled book lined room being offered a glass of sherry. The first question of the interview was I can remember it now, the tutor or director of study said, too what extent do you think Canterbury Tales is like a modern day package holiday And I just sat there with this sherry man and looked at him. I'm not sure I spoke for. I always say I was still pondering the question when the rejection letter landed on the door. I just there was nothing in my life to that point had prepared me for that experience. Nothing, not one thing. And so I I just, you know, when I got call back for a pool interview at Fitzwilliam College, which was a more had more of a tradition of state school intake I was a bit, you know, you know, know, I've got a bit of a sort of a streetwise side I kind of right. if that's the game, I'm coming back a bit better this time. So you brushed it up a bit Yeah, and they weren't as sure. Intimidating, let's know. Sometimes it's performative isn't it? They'remost trying to intimidate you, Wh which means again, if you went to a school like mine, you can rise to the challenge. but if you haven't had we had lessons on how to do interviews for you Mr. Harrington said it might be a bit challenging any youm. So I was a bit but I know. I just had nowh. Did you ever then when you got, mr. Harringon must have been chuffed when youre going there I think eleven kids out of two hundred went to university at all in your cohort from From school. So to go into Cambridge, you Yeah I was the first ones getting into Oxbridge for I think it There was one person who got in and he was using her example to say, look, the school got one person in about four or five years ago. you could do it. And it sounds like a real hard look story. It wasn't like that. it was a good school, a really good family back. It's thinking that you can apply, isn't it? as much as anything else? It was that and that's why that aspiration word comes back in my vernacular. And I think part of your Finding it more comfortable space at Cambridge came with two realisations, not just that these people who went to schools like mine We're largely putting it on, as I say, like they put on a suit, like we put on a suit of clothes, but also that the lads you'd been at school with and the girls you'd been at school with couldould easily thrive in a situation like this if they'd been dealt with slightly different hand of cards a few years earlier. I could name some of them for you right now. Yeah. old friend of mine, John Hunt, you know he's could have easily gone to Oxbridge and came and visited me actually there and yeah it was It was quite frustrating to me that, you know, just to know the talent of some of the people I'd grown up with but knowing that it just never got its chance to even get It's enraging. It's not just frustrating. Well it's whatever you let it be, but it is that sense of you know, doors being shut from Birth almost, that other people growing up in different parts of the same country don't even realize there are doors there. Well, I did have that line back in twenty ten,. Why is it that the postcode of the bed you're born and still determines where you end up in life? and I think that remains the British That's the British condition still. know there's a great book written recently by somebody called Darren McGarvey. I don't know if're familiar with Darren's work, but I'd recommend it to your listeners, James, the social distance between us, It's just so on on the money for me, you know, it's about how this is baked in from the off And, you know, in the classroom where, you know kids who are in communities or homes where there is a threat of violence who learn to look after themselves a certain way, when they get spoken like by a teacher and will react in a certain way because thenen immediately they've got that label on them. they're marked down. they're on the way out of the you know, the mainstream, aren't they? And it it's just yeah, it's it's kind of u it's it's deep in the sort of British condition, isn't it? And again, it's no's not it's not a coincidence So then you have this Cooling experience of Hillsborough, which is, I mean it's impossible to separate all these things. You're burgeoning Class consciousness your awareness of privilege delivering advantage in ways that you don't fully understand until your face is right up against the window, do you until you're seeing it? You're thinking of your mates back home, seeing some herber over there in coat and a waistcoat who thinks he's Sebastian flight and then Hillsborough happens. Yeah and It's the If I've understood correctly, it's there's two or three things going on. There's the inexpressible tragedy's the horror of it Then there's the lethurgy about the people you were at college with or the kind of just the Blas A approach to it, which speaks of both a class and a geographical divide, but how quickly did the cover up kick in for you. How quickly did you become aware that people were actively seeking to keep the truth from the people to keep the facts in the darkness? It was within days. wasas it? Because I've been in this pub in the place where I grew up called Cultchth, a cherry tree. So I'd been in that pub on the Friday night And we were having a conversation with friends I was at college with who were then at different universities or done their thing. They were going to Hillsborus watch Liverpool. Roger Hunt lived in the place where I he was the uncle of the John Hunt I mentioned before. So most people in that area had grown up supportorting Liverpool because everyone had followed Roger. We were the only Etonians around. We were going to Villa Park And I remember saying to my friend, Stephen Turner They're not putting you in the Leppings lane again, are they? Because the year before the same teams had played at Hillsborough and it had been a nightmare. People had come home saying it was terrible. We were stuck in the pens. It was awful. And I'd watched Everton play Sheffield Wednesday there nineteen eighty eight. And so we've been in the pens and I've been in that situation where I was I didn't watch the game. I just watched the back of my dad's head and my brother's head because I was worried they were going to, you know, it was one of those experiences that you just don't have anymore, but it was awful. So yeah, I mean And those that conversation happened on the Friday, they came back to that same pub on the Saturday, traumatised and I mean traumatised And then it what was it? Was it the Tuesday or was it the Wednesday when the The tabloid story began, you know, it was that immediate that the cover up was that brutal. But we knew the truth. I mean, I knew that I'd been in that ground. I'd felt my own safety at risk in that ground. so I knew The truth of that and I remember, I think there was a commitment in ' ninety two, but even ninety seven Labour had a manifesto commitment to reopen Hillsborough. And I can remember the moment now in nineteen ninety eight. When they'd followed through the commitment, but they'd had this Stuart Smith inquiry And it was another stitch up. And I remember, you know, hearing on the radio and pulling over in the car and crying in a lay bar in Sheffield because that was that moment was the first biggest moment of politicals or disillusionment I've ever felt in my life. I thought We were going to come into government and tell the truth about Hillsborough. And so it kind of was yeah, that was a very big, big moment for me. How do you process it at the time, I mean, whichever one of those chapters or episodes you want to focus on, the shock. of seeing a country you'd always thought, although it might be unequal there's a fundamental fairness or the truth will out. I presume you believed that in your. I did. I think the shock was that my own party almost wanted to be the establishment. Right and wasn't actually at the end of the day prepared to you know confront confront it when there was palpable. injustice in front of it. And that was a moment that I really struggled with then and now. but also, you know going back to what I was saying before, I was making my way in politics at that time. R. And there was clearly I'm not going to claim I was perfect anyway. I was there was an ambitious side to me. I wanted to get on, but then I was kind of feeling the disillusionment for the first time. And yeah remember that being a really disorientating experience. So where did the shift come from from unpaid Middleton Guardian journalist who aspiring politician. what I mean, because you come out of Cambridge and you're thinking the world's your oyster and isn't and you're watching Other kids you've been at university with, as you said, Wting into positions that you knew you were qualified for impuloster syyndrome or not deep down, you knew you could do what they. I did. I feel I wanted to prove myself that I could gi them the chance. And they didn't. And did you apply? Did you knock on doors or we? Oh God, hundreds and hundreds ofities. Oh God, yeah. It was the old the days of the media guardians media Gardian on to Yeah, constant letters, you know Hundreds and hundreds. Um And yeah, I was obviously how can you stay in an unpaid? I this role I had was, you know journalist had been made redundant. I'd just gone in and his desk and computer were there and I was just doing it on paid. eventually, you know, couldn't do it. The editor also chose to make me as sort of, you know office scapegoat so I got, you know, and so I just thought I I actually walked out of that. I gave him a mouthful and I walked. I told him where to stick his job. And I then realized I had to get one, know a pay job. And I did so this is where Cambridge did open a door. Right. saw an opportunity to work for a transport publishing company. Yes called Baltic Publishing based under the M four flyover in Brentford. But to me that was quite glamorous at the time when I moved down to London. And yeah, I applied and I got that job. And so in some ways, my dad was right to a degree. I got a job through the Cambridge University career service and in the end that set me set me on my way. And what was that way? So then you having a pointint in the globe in Brentford and someone said to you And someone said to you, what do you want to be doing in five years time? What would you have said then? Well, someone did say that to me. And that person was somebody who I recruited to work on contontainer management, which was one of our amazing titles. And maybe this shows that I've got a good eye for people and a good eye for talent. I recruited through interview. Eleanor Mills to work on container management and for those who don't know Eleanor would go on to edit the Sunday Times magazine Well she said that to me. We used to go to a different pub actually at used to it was were the days when we'd have sneaky pint at lunchtime. we used to go to the Eleanor and I would go to the new inn actually which was closest to our office in Brentford near where the old Giffin part was but it's obviously gone now. but She said said to me, Well, why did you actually because I always moaning I'd rather do I wanted to do this. I want to be this. I want to be that, you know, I know world not fair. And she said, Well, what do you actually want to do? I said, Well And I wouldn't open up to many people, but I'd got to really really like H. and then we were quite close. I said, I'd actually want to be an MP And she said, Well he should apply to work with my stepmother then I said, what? She said She just got elected in Dulwich. This was just after the ninety two general election because I'd been crushed by that defeat. You know I was working in London at the time. I was thinking labour' coming in and it's going to be brilliant. But my stepmother's just been elected. Why don't you apply? I said, well, who's your stepmother Tessa Jal? I I've never heard of Tessa Jal, but would she give me an interview you think? And yeah, there you go. That's how I always say when I do go into a lot of schools and colleges around G Manor, I always say to the young people, you know You will get given opportunities that you could never predict and you've got to be good at sort of knowing when they're there right in front of you and that was mine and I did. You jumped. Absolutely, I absolutely did. and I put everything into it and in the end got that got that job. The And your rise through the through the ranks of the party was quite Swift. It does put you in that category though almost of politician who's never had a proper job Definitely I mean I mean, I had minor you know ro roles outside Parliament as I've described, but no yeah, I abbsolerve that generally. Does it matter? I've never been persuaded that it matters, but it's a criticism that will be levelled, isn't it? It I think it's Well, given everything we've already talked about, is' it as if you grew up in a petry dish insulated from the reality of your school friends or your family or whatever it may be, but it is No, and you know, part of me agrees with what you've just said, but I do think it probably helps if people have had I don't know You know, ten years in a in a Solid profession, I guess, before going into Parliament I think I was of the era of people who you know wanted to go go more quickly there. And for me, once I got into Parliament It was that Cambridge thing again. I can prove that I can stay here. That was the kind of driving thing. you know That generation were kind of around me, David Milliband, James Pennell, Ed Balls. And I was thinking, can I prove myself in this environment and it was, you know, it was challenging one to say the least. I remember I worked on the generenal election campaign at Millbank in nineteen ninety seven And that was actually That was a bit of disillusion before the Hillsborough thing in ninety eight because it felt very ached Let's put it that way and it felt I don't know. felt entitled. Okay There was an arrogance in there It felt like you thought When you were younger that it was two people, two groups essentially from the same sort of background playing playing it g playing a game with each. Oh God, it felt very much interesteresting.ith the odd exceptional person who stand out who Oh Mo Molam, I remember. I Tessa volunteered me to work on Tony Blair's leadership campaign And I was succconded to M Molin for a couple of weeks and I yeah I've always ke myself lucky that I had that experience. Yeah o God, yeah, absolutely. Butah Mo was very firmly of the real world Granger knows, when you're a procurement manager for an office park You're not managing one building, you're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners Light's about to fail, filters ready to clog, HVac on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind Count on Granger for quality products, easy reordering, and twenty four seven support Call one eight hundred Granger, click Ganger. com or just stop by Granger. For the ones who get it done. There's a constant examination going on with you, isn't it? We might be back to Catholicism a bit that trying to think of things to say in conlication in the confessional. But there is, isn't there? There's not that sense of I don't if relax is quite the right word, but I never relax. Well it is the right word then. I never relax. No, I think you're right. I think I'm always I always feel I'm trying to prove myself, you know, whatever I'm doing. you know't C't have that sense of oh, well, you know, I'm here and I've arrived and I'm this and I'm not I I never feel that. Maybe that's a good thing though I never would want to give off those vibes in anything I did. But it also means you've got your Antteni switch all the time for whether or you're the right place or whether you could be more useful somewhere else, or whether you could be Um Possibly I mean yeah, I mean, I but it's more It's more That thing about always justifying yourself, you know, what Yeah because it look Manchester a bit like that. you know, what, okay Is good for you, but what are you doing for us? You know what why should we care about what you're doing? you know? And so you know, you kind of I was kind of felt that experience, you know, as as, you know, someomebody living in London, I lived in London in the nineties and I'd come home and people would always be like, We don't care what you why you know you've been hanging out with Yss, all of that. So campaign you've worked on. Exactly. Yeah, they weren't interested. You know, that almost forces think well, how? Can I show that what I'm doing can make a difference, you know, and you know, that drove me as member of Parliament for Lee and then, you know some of the things I. So I mean a fairly smooth passage from research are to spAad to MP over that four years from Fairly nine years actually from working going to work for Tessa Jails to getting into Parliament. Farely It was a slightly odd passage in that you know, I had, you know works for Tessa. I had then been asked to work on the general election campaign, which was obviously an incredible privilege and opportunity given, you know We didn't realize how historic it was at the time, but you know it really, really was But then didn't make the cut to be a special advisor. Did you know? No And that was another moment of of self doubt and thinking,h, well maybe I've reached my of limits here. So I worked for a while in the NHS I was the first ever parliamentary officer for the NHS Confederation U and And then And actually, he had a huge role in bringing me on, if you like, and giving me confidence. James Pannell, who was an advisor in the government I had you know, I played in his football team demonized because we you know, I'd played for the old Red Menace. that used to be the old labour team. It became demonized in this sort of new labor. James was the sort of lynchpin of that. And It was one of those games on on a Friday night. He said, you we're creating this thing called the foootball task force, you you want know want to be involved in it literally wrenched his arm off at the kind of shoulder bit it off at the shoulder because I was yeah. and then I did that in sort of ninety eight, ninety nine time. And that was when the Hillsborough disappointment happened. I was working in football, which was a thing I'd never thought I'd do, but I was, know I was working Premier League And then that disappointment came around the original Hillsborough review. But yeah, more than disappointment is it was just betrayal what it was like You were describing betrayal of you and your people. It was like the world is like this and I can't change it, but what do I do? you know and how can I Yeah How can I stay within this? And did you nearly walk away? Yeah, I did. I remember, you know the experience of well the experience of the general election made me almost walk away. I didn't enjoy it. I didn't, you know, people might think I would say, wonderful ninety seven. It It was to a point but not Really, you know, I didn't feel I could relate to the people around me on the labor campaign. Iologically. Yeah from background and ideologically, know you know there was almost a sort of comment even Brown didid you not get close to him? Be we can see how you could look Laterally I did. Right. Laterally I did, but not at that time because Tessa's W was the Blairite world. Yes, of course. And so I was kind of more exposed to that to begin with Yeah. I mean the reason why people have often misread me, I think, politically is because Coming from where I came from I was just loyal to Who was the leader? you know, that was that I was taught to be like that. you know, it was like my momum would say, you know, this is the pope. you got to be loyal to theope. This is the leader of the Labour partarty. youre loyal to, you know, that's how it was, you know, so I would be a If Tony Blowy'd be a blerright. Id call him Bowns I' be a Browny know obviously I serve Dad Milibban and Jeremy Corbns shadow Cabinet. So I think You don't in Western of politics, you get punished for that. No Not sort of applauded. Did you always? Is that a relatively new development getting punished for it? Not you personally, but politicians in general. Because what you describe is not to me shocking The idea that you would be loyal to Ted Heath and be loyal to John Major and be loyal to Margaret Thatcher is not I certainly feel that was used against It was used against, but I just don't know whether it's a relatively new development in possity. Yeah, I kind of felt that's how it was meant to work. But it's still happening now, you know, cant you can't been the Labour Party is riddled with it still. The phrase I've often used since leaving Westminster is that it It does make a fraud out of good people. Yes or it makes you appear to be fraudulent. Yes I. e, you know, the whip makes you vote in certain ways, the line to take makes you say things you might. half believe in, but you do it because it's the system you're meant to because you want to govern and you want to get on and you want to yeah, well I make no apology about that. I wanted to rise through the ranks I wanted to be Bolders you the player Bolders you this perception It does because I don't feel I only feel people have seen the real me, if you like. Well certainly post when I went to Anfield on the twentieth anniversary because that for me was the know the career changing moment. It' when I had to decide was I on the path Was I sticking on the path I was on Or was I taking a step off it? and I took a step off it at that time. We're in the bit now where people will be aware of elements of what we're talking about. The first half or the first bit interview is obviously stuff that they're not aware about. But I wonder whether people fully appreciate what it was like to be heckled that day. in april two thousand nine to essentially become a receptacle for unhappiness that you actually shared and understood as much as anybody else present Yeah the way I would describe it, when I walked out that day to address the cop Bear in mind, I was like my chest was just like clenched tight, you know with it with the kind of emotion of the situation. I knew I was walking to the edge of the abyss between the government I was in and the people I grew up with, Well I knew that. I knew I was going to be staring thousands of them in the face. And for that reason, because I knew that in advance of going, I'd agonized about going and that tight knit family that you know I always go back to I had to go back to them and say, what do What do I do How do I reconcile this? Well you know's the way through this? I can't walk away. I can't say no to the twentieth anniversary. Yeah. But at the same time, what can I say? What could I possibly say to anybody that would cut any ice about anything? It's that point I was saying to you before about we don't care what you do. You know what are you going to do And in some ways, I guess it so me, you know it obviously always still makes me emotional now to even of course go through that again. But the reason why It was massive in my life was because I just had to decide at that point, why was I doing this? Was politics a career or was it something else? And it always was something else you know, to get on to get myself in a position to influence anything. I'd had to play the career game. Do you get me, you know. I had to sort of say the right things in the interviews and vote the right way and work my way through and be loyal to all the leaders. and I don't you know, part of that was fine because I was in a government that was changing people's lives and eighty percent of it, I could justify completely and twenty percent as whatever, you can't fully justify So I bet I've done that But then I'd hit a point where You know, where I'd struggled with votes in Parliament, you know in the Bair years, particularly, I was actually at a point I was in Gordon Brown's cabinet I had been invited to the twentieth anniversary of Hillsborough And it was up to me what I said. well, A whereether I went B what I said. And my younger brother John, cut through it all for me as he often does and just said, Go if you're going to do something for them And by them we meant the families, but if not, stay away So I went home with that advice in my ringing in my ears and and I then, you know through a kind of a few long dark nights decided I was going to do something. And you know that was a kind of moment really that you know, I took my first steps out of Westminster that day, even though I was still in the cabinet, I was on I was on the way I was on the way out basically. becausecauseuse you made essentially made a promise Well, I did, I mean, I did it in front of the couple, though it was a bit in code actually if you look back at that speech, but the drama and that was on TV earlier this year really correctly and accurately shows what happened. went to a A ceremony at Liverpool Town Hall that night. And bear in mind, I was completely battered and bruised after what had happened I was feeling sorry for myself. You know obbviously, you know, it wasn't about me that day, but in the end I was feeling like and Steve Rotherham, who I got to know through this whole thing, he was then the Lord mayayor said, you've got to come to the town haall Ling, you can't go home. Come and speak to the families directly I'm like Steve I don't know for me, I'm going on, I'm going home. No, you're coming, No you're coming. Made me go. I walk up to Liverpool's townown hall staircase, you have to go up one bit and you have to double back and come out the other way. And as I turn to go up into the meeting waiting for me on the landing Kenny Douglash Alan Hansen, Stephen Gerard, and Jamie Carrighgh, which is in my eyes the worst welcom party. Beyond th cooking m there. Allort of the apocalyse way. Boody lutely it was. It couldn't have been worse after the day. I was like, canan your day get any worse? Yes, it just has. And at the top of his voice The man who ruined my childhood Sir Kenneth Dougleash shouts out For everyone to hear. Oh no. You've not come here to upset them all again, have you This is is so called. No, no, this was meant be sledgehammer... And he kind of laughed. And it kind of broke the ice, I guess a bit in what had been up to then and absolutely. But then they all, to be honest, and I loved them all for it. They got around me. Yeah And they said, lookook, You did the right thing by going, but go in there and tell those families what you're going to do. And so I did And then that was it. you know, I was kind of like I was I gone through the pain barrier of it And then that night, know I looked the families in the eye and I told them what I was going to do. And Williams had pined me in a corner withith her story about her son, Kevin. Y But she had evidence that he was alive way beyond the three hundred and fifteen cutoff And it was that moment and I looked down and I said, well, okay, well that's what I need and that's what I will use. And then yeah. I and the one thing I just do need to say is I have spokgen about it before, but I want to say it When I came off the cop that afternoon, my phone rang and I looked at it and it said GB. GB calling And I thought, oh my God Because Gordon didn't know I was there, he didn't know I was going. And I thought he's going to ring he's ringing to say All of these difficulties I've got and you've given me another one today. Why did you not tell me? Why did you And this is where I think, you know, my relationship with Gordon really, he said It was a brave thing that you did there today. I want to just say to you that you know pp you what you've done. Thank you for going. You did the right thing. I couldn't believe he I can remember the call now. I was like I said, Well it really good. Yep, ye ye. And he said I'll help you if you want me. And I said, Should I raise it than a cabinet tomorrow and um, He said, yeah, you can. And that was a really rare thing. You couldn't just raise things willill you know No. And he gave me permission to raise it. That was a yeah, that was a very, very big moment for me. And that is why five years later in front of the same people, you had a very different experience Yeah, I did know so Gordon did allow me to raise a cabinet. I didn't get unanimous support, but I got his backing. He said that day we're going to back Andy to reopen it. We started to. We established the Hillsbor Independent panel in those days and months before we were leaving government. and that then in the end led The truth being told on the twelfth of september twenty twelve, just ten years ago. You're making me emotional now. Be that is It's worth living a life to achieve something like that What Not just a career It just feels like I was that was what I was put put around to do, I guess. donon't know. It is emotional thing. I find it hard to talk about. Of course Just because of the, you know the enormity of it. And the families that will never however much truth you've made Also back to the you know, the stuff at as you were talking about at the start of about church, you know about what is justice, what is fairness, you know what is and all of that. And yeah, I mean that day, you know, when when the The report finally came out. But this is Liverpool for you. know, we're there outside the St. George's Hall. The truth have been told. We go to a pub called the Ship and Miter and everyone's there U Everyone had been a part of it was was in the pub. but somebody called Peter Hooden was there. I don't know if you know Peter, but Yeah yeah, lead singer of the farm. he's massive, obviously in Liverpool circle, spirit of Shanki and all of that. And he'd been been involved in the raad E had been dead nice and everything. said But Andy, before you go, we just literally I was about to say I'm going home now because it was getting at like one o'clock or something And he said, We just got something for you. I remember Peter stood on the bar in the pub he goes Come on everybody and the whole pubment Blue and white shide bl. It's like classic Liverpool, yog just. What you Yeah. Well it is that mixture, isn't it of high emotion and Ai bantter doesn't even come close. It's nowhere near the right word for. That was a unforgettable not When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant You keep production lines moving and quality on track because there is no room for slowdowns With Granger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts, and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place, so nothing gets in the way of getting the job done. Call one eight hundred Ganger, click ranger. com or just stop by Ranger for the ones who get it done and probably then, for people who wonder how someone very much front bench, very much cabinet shadow cabinet credentials could then walk away from Parliament because it must have affected a shift in your priorities from the two thousand nine moment, not the twenty fourteen moment where you changed Again, you reviewed what you thought mattered most, I think I can remember being at Milliban's shadow cabinet. When I was campaigning on the health service in with a let's say kind of the nuance of the Blair era, I was set free and I was like you massively opposing the Lanssley reforms and I wouldn't be told anything else that we would be opposing the bill. and I probably Kave have had a few problems in that time. But rem The leadad's office giving us sort of I remember a quote appearing in a Sunday newspaper that It was about a story about there were mutterings about Burnham. he's left the reservation as well. someome of the you know, Burnham's left the reservation. But it was probably truthful, I think It was truthful. I was not anymore in that I will just do as I'm told thing. I just what you know I'd kind of departed and you know, I was still campaigning on social care at the time. I kept saying to Amilalbana at Plls very close to at E stillill you. And you know, you know he and I I think have developed a lot of our thinking together over the years. I mean, I was saying to him though that I support social care on NHS terms I' promoted that as health seecretary. Remember National care Service was the thing that I'd put forward And I kept saying that as shadow health and Ed Boes wasn't so keen and but I wasn't You know I wasn't in my mind,' suck it up. No, no, no, no, no. I'd been through that stuff the And you've seen where determination could get you as well. I mean that's another thing that changes with the Well it was a bit like Cambridge. it took me a time in Parliament to feel not just that I could do it but tend to have the confidence to actually throw my own weight on. I have done it. I didn from I could do it Exactly. And I kind of felt, well actually not I'm not signing up to things anymore that I don't I don't believe in. and yeah, that that, you know, took me through that peer in opposition then sadly, I kind of almost lost sight of some of what I've been doing in that twenty fifteen leadership election, but it was the sort of the I guess the curse of the front runner and I just lost you know, too many people in my ear and everything. and yeah, but in the end, then It felt natural to leave when the mayorall chob in Gacemanester came up. Have you ever regretted that? And I know don' just well I was hoping you'd pause for a bit before answering. because I mean it's a curious period of British politics. Meaningful opposition was very thin on the ground during the period immediately after you. I mean after the twenty seventeen election result. You never look you just got stuck into the new job. You never look back and thought, K there's an open goal there. I'd have slam that one home No, I mean I honvestly didn't regret it because I felt liberated, Right and energized. And how much power do you have in Manchesterg? Be I do I speak to the mayayor of London every month and I'm always slightly taken aback by How little power is held in these mayoral roles? Yeah, I mean, Great Manch has a pretty significant devolution deal. It's comparable to London in some ways stronger. Y. S some ways less strong. but you know it's comparable. Yes. U But you get the convening power of being mayor. And obviously we're a place that The vast majority of people are kind of on board if you like, you know, we're not as a you know divided or a place No I mean, your results are a Turnout's not massive, is it? but what your margin of victory is. Yeah. and you know so I remember you the day I walked in as mayor to the G Mager combined Authority I remarked on that day about how different it felt to walking into the Department for Culture Media andport Scretary of State the Department for Health In those ministerial roles, I often felt at least a half or probably two thirds of the places against you. When I walked into the rolling G muchuch, I felt the whole place was kind of with me And yeah, it was the whole experience was really kind of energizing. and it still is actually. I love it. I love what we're doing because There's one thing that defines me, it is about these two Englands that I'm trying to sort of change, you know, why don't we get why don't We get the same opportunities in my part of the world are often taken for granted in London and the southeast Why does an English city cry. injustice for twenty years before anyone listens to it you know, these things motivate me and I kind of feel that you know, the system was not going to change within and so therefore and I tried to be leader twice and therefore, you know, I thought, well, how can I now build what I believe in. and I think What we've built through the Mayal rollles in Liverpool, Manchester. has started to change a bit the landscape of British politics. in a sense, the Bogus leveling up agenda was an attempt to steal your lunch, I suppose Yeah, I mean, at first it sounded like it was, you know, trying to put wind in our sails, but you know, the pandemic experience sort of blew that apart, didn't it? where you know, they were trying to kind of railroad us into tier three by giving Another moment when you sort of Yeah left the reservation. I abbsolutely was way off it by that point. I mean, yeah, because but it was people always down here and you know Rys Mogg kind of was made this big thing about it. It was pure acting and grandstandounding. I can't rem knowbody actually said something like that He They misread what I mean Westmster. I don't think people down here ever understood me because they misread what I'm kind of about really. I'm not always playing those games as they were in the Cambridge Union or in you know, I wasn't I'm not doing that You know wherear it's I will generally speak as I find, and where the government has done the right thing, I'll say so. But when there's a point of principle, i., you're not treating people in Greater Manchester equally as you would people in London then I will use what political skill I've got to make my voice heard as loudly as I can can. And that's what I did. But then the world down here immediately said, Ohh God, these mares are just chipp troublesome and we'll get rid of them and all the rest of it. And is that the loudest your voice will get now, mayor of Great to Manchester Well I'm just can answer this honestly, because know I know of the day talking code, know so I'm not making any plans for any sort of immediate immediate return. I've talked doing a full second term in Greater Manchester, but I've not ruled out one day coming back because there is part of me still that says How does this country start to work for everybody everywhere? It doesn't work for everybody everywhere. Those kids I went to school with never ever got anything like the opportunities that the people I was at university with. So how does it? And I think For me where I've come to on my political journey is that