Reflecting on the Future of Society

This't really. This is a Global Player original podcast. Genius thing about doctor Who is if you're eight years old, The tardist is designed to appear at the bottom of your own or on the way to school or in the schoollyard. So D doctor Who was there from the very very start. Yeah. And people say, don't sit in front children in front the television. I say nonsense, nonsense in the way you wouldn't stop them reading. No, I'm not apologise. Well, I will, if you won't How big a propulsion was the backlash? It was more ignored. You'd look in the papers like What's on Tellle on Tuesday night and it wouldn't be there. How did that make you feel? Are you bastards? I've never been more happry my life are you The malice of that Hello and welcome to Full Disclosure, a podcast project designed to let me spend more time with interesting people than I would ever get on the radio. Russell T. Davies, welcome. Hi. Hello. It's lovely to see you. I mean everyone who interviews you must spend a significant portion of time running through the CV, but pick favorites the second coming long. Bob and Rose years and years, it's a sin and imminently by the time people listen to this tiptoe of which off which more later. The more I read about you in preparation for this interview, the more it seemed as if your childhood had left you with precious little option, but to become Russell T. Davis. What way? Well a lot of telly. Yeah and an obsession with storytelling from very earlier and a lovely youth theatre that brought me up. Yes. It's like well, it's not the mouth it goes out of, it's the brain it goes into. Yes. And yeah, I was that sponge sitting there when people say, I don't sit in front children in front the television, I say nonsense. nons in the way you wouldn't stop them reading. Y. It was wonderful for me. My parents had this kind of strange respect for the television. they never turned it off. It was a bit of a temple for them, I think,. And yet they were intellectuals themselves or at least very, very cultured people. teeachers and a housefulull of books and magazines and they both talk classic. My mum was a French teacher really, but they both talkaught classics and they did practical with. My father then went on to become a peripathetic careers master.. So he was really he loved his kids and he really did a lot to move them on in life Yeah. And that's, I mean, one of the sort of earliest building blocks, then, isn't it? this idea that there's nothing second division about television. and if you wantant to be a creator Then why wouldn't you use the televisual medium given that more people are likely to see it than pretty much anything else. I'm with you. people say to me now they, we've everitten fm? Wh why haven't written a film? I have an idea it's four or five episodes long or eight episodes or ten episodes, I just don't think I watch a film quite happily But I'm more likely to sit down and watch a televion show I mean, and even now in this age of the streamers, I'm there happily watching Antiques World showow, through to the quizzes in the afternoon, through to the DaF shows at night. I'm still a great terrestrial viewer. the last. I got to be pretentious its not for the last time in this interview, but it like Dickens preferring to write an episodic form. so you like that self contained I'll go with that commot Yeah' seize that. Maybe it is. I know what you mean? Yes, yes, yes. Yes. and yet serialized but contained. I spend a certain amount of time on soap operas and I love soap operas and I'msly one of the last soap opera watchers left. In Great Britain, I feel very alone. My friend's mother died of the age of eighty two recently and now I think the Viewing figures of Corn have halved down to me. But I wasm still there. I'm still there. You see enjoying. You see the numbers from the old days. It's almost unbelievable. Isn't it? the kind of figures I was there when I was harder in the nineties when Coray St was introduced Hailey Bjulie Hesmond or, transr characters, stuff like that. Well was feisty, steamy place it was. It was brilliant enngine of creativity.'s just one of tony Julie has Yes, doesnn't she?? Yes. Yes. sat in that very chair not I was sorry Yeahah yeah it' be amazing. Her first time in the West End as well. It's a beautiful that amazing. It is. So Swanseie, early sixties, happappy home. the son of teachers. It all sounds very, very sort of secure comomfortable and happy. Yes, it really was. So an interviewer's nightmare.. Exactly. It was a big or comprehensive school. I went to two thousand three hundred pupils. That was a A farm or a factory. mean it's ridiculous isn't it? two thousand three hundred? It was two At four o'clock that bell would ring and it was like It was like Wildebe It was like the Wildebeastest in the Ly King storming out of that place. So I that's not the I mean, I'm not weaving a tale of traregedy here. It's not the happiest place to be a young gay boy in the seventies No when you kind of awareness of your gayness is growing and That's the last place you're ever to say it. So yeah, that's hardly suffering the whole generation. but many generations have lived with that. Home was always a sanctuary from that as well.. So I mean, that's a sort of positive, isn't it? Is that you'd never have you could I don't know when you came out, your parents took it very Oh. And it was a place of reading of draws, draw a lot as well. I was yeah, loved it. Your dad was the storyteller, I think, of the pair. Yes, especially when drunk. He was like was one of the great after dinner speakers off all time. It's like, you know, when we have to go to a wedding or something and dad was giving a speech, we'd all like, o, great Off he goes, literally. What would you feel sitting there watching that? Be your dad, that eillment. I kind of loved it. We all look forward to it. It's like we had to go to a rugby club dinner or something and he was on the med and I'd see him For it's where I kind of learn hard work. I mean, me and my sisters have come out with this with some mad work ethic. We all work ourselves to death. And you look back now at this stage,, whereere do we get that from then? And it was my mum and dad. It's like they were very, very, very hard workers. If my dad had an after dal of speech, I saw the two weeks beforehand of him rehearsing it and looking at books and chasing down anecdotes before the internet. You know, you'd have to go look at books and research stuff and play music that would take lyrics off things The hard work they went into a speech. Yeah So you're absorbing at a rate of knots and I think very, very early you started creating as well these stories. I suppose I was always drawing. That was my very first. It took me a long while. It took me into my twenties to realise that I wasn't going to draw. Okay. I was going to write The difference between the two is So would you not draw things with words? Yes. So I was doing little strips to myself it's very weird. I recently Ah I st theatre posters for the Sherman Theatre in Cardiff in my twenties, I do the Christmas shows And I know this's interesting, but I recently had to redraw them. I did Mr. Toad, I did Emperor's New clothes. I did all these characters And I wish I had to redraw them And mayaybe we have to see this, but all I had to do was look at those posters and I recreated them exactly It's like they were in my hand. It's like the memory of those drawings was in my hand. And once I finish the drawing I looked at that every proportion was correct. After forty years of characters I hadn't drawn like Mr. Toad with his bow tie, stuff like that, I looked at the modern drawing, I looked the old drawing and I was like it's like I traced it. Isn't that strange? I find that' incredible. But then I thought, Well, actually you never forget a tune, d It's how much is that related? They stay in you. Its like a muscle memory. I had no idea it was that deeply ingrained until I did destroying and I was like, wow Why did whyy did you decide what happened in your early twenties? Did you just realize there wasn't much of a career in? Yes,s hard to do. And I was mistakenly told by a careers teacher when I was about sixteen that I couldn't get into graphics or graphic design because I was colorblind I'm just a bit red green colorbind that's all. And she went, Oh no, that's the whole world up. I didnt love magazines. I was really determined to go work in magazines. I still love. I the last buyer magazines and there were soap oers when there were to resturant magazines, they were like to sweep me away in the end. I part your penny far being outsideer cl Exactly. And so I was determined so that changed Path a great deal and yes, and then eventually I kind of worked out, I was writing really. Bea you do your own comic strips. And this, I think, probably more at primary school than secondary school, they would become an event for other children in the class. second, the cartoons. secondary school was yeah, yeah. It was when I could really start to draw. I mean it was primary school you just doing splotes of course. Secondary school doing cartoons. yeah, they get passed around and the teachers would read them when they go into the school magazine. It was curricul the teachers in there What would that be about? They were They were kind of like Doctor Whoy adventures, but much more cartoon strip. They weren't proper Marvel type comics. they were More asterisks, I love asterks, I still love asterks to this today. muchuch more cartoony, much more knock about. So Doctor Who was there from the very very start. Yeah. abbsolutely. Literally one of my first memories of seeing William Hartlold regenerate. I had no idea what was happening back in. It' wass missing from the archives, but it's there in my head. I've got it. I literally remember it It' actually missing from the ar. Yeah yeah, that episode's gone They think someone nicked it. It was said to Blue Peter once to them to make some clips and it was never sent back. Just amaz. someomeone put it in their bag and walked out. So that was that I mean, because obviously it's a show with which you are very strongly associated. But it was this is what I meant at the beginning by saying there's so much that appears to have been preparation for only the life that you could have led. Yes. Do you know Iad anything once that said it might not be true, but it's fascinating that You will have had every idea you will ever have by the age of sixteen. And you spend the rest of your life coming to terms with that Did you bu that? It's nonsense But yeah I look at my life and I go, well, that's doctor Who. And also that's gay stories. That's what else was I thinking up to the age of sixteen? Was gay, gay, gay, gay, secretly. And what have I written since gay gay? So this is something in I keep coming back to that thought. It's not as mad as it looks. What was it do you think about doctor Who that grabbed you so powerful. I wonder and maybe I keep writing it in order to find that answer. I still don't know. I still think it's beautiful and unique I think I think it's all the things that it's not and I actively didn't like Star Trek because that's the military because that's joining up in putting on a uniform in Star Trek. and I do love the modern Star Trek. I've come to terms with it now eventually. but actually you have to have ob a job. Also you have to be the best to be on board the enterprise, whereereas actually to get on board the hardest, you just have to be good and nice. That' to be lovely to get on that as opposed to You have to pass all of your exams bit. So it's very, very different worlds. And so my heart went to the one that was just free And also the genius thing about Doctor Who is the for you' eight years old, you can imagine that tard is landing bott of you don't imagine the entpise sailing over your house. You don't. It's not going to happen. No of course. Tardis is designed to appear at the bottom of your road or on the way to school or in the schoollyard or on that moor or that to that gate and you walk in. It's a beautiful idea. So there's no cod psychology in play here because because your home life was so warm and happy, the escapism is positive it's not a desperate attempt to get away from your reality. It's just an augmentation of your reality in a world. Absolutely. It's funny. you spend a lot of time. When you first start to write You feel that incredible pressure of not having suffered as a child. which as with Snowbbery about that, talkal about Snowberry. it's like, oh, how dare you dare you have an opinion on the world? If you haven't suffered. And then actually all you have to do is define the areas in which you have not suffered, but which had an interesting life, which is most of being gay And and my Godd, if I mind that stop be some stop me st. Yeah, well accept that. the mind keeps changing, doesn't it? Be's true a new show. there's there's I'm conscious of not wanting to give too much away But in the new show, the moment in episode one, when the reason behind the title comes, I'm gonna to well up just talking about it. the idea that the gay experience and somewhat someomewhat implausibly. I spent quite a lot of time on Canal Street in the early nineties. talking. You still owe the money, it's like Get that quite off the head. And in a way Correct me if I've got this wrong. Tipt toe is used the way it hit me and the reason why it hit me so hard was because it has almost been offered up as the opposite of pride Yes, I love you you've understood the title from those opening images, which not everyone does. when you go to episode five, you you really get that. is the title but it's happening right there in front of you. that it really is on tipoe. And that's interesting the opposite of pride. I just think yes, And and and and that's just It just rose up in me I just had to write this because look, you deal with the world on your shows and the way we're heading. and that's what I listen to ands one thing one thing I like about being gay, well, I like a lot of things about being gay, but I like how automatically politicized we are because our lives and our sex lives and our physical lives and our identities are constantly being debated elections being fought on the strend, especially in America, on the strendth of who we are and how we are. And it's and more that's happening here as well. So it's like you can't you can't help but stay in touch with what's going on simply by being part of a queer community. It's like we are under debate and being judged constantly. And in a dark place. And in a dark place I do think' getting darker, absolutely.' the character Melbourne sort of puts it so Alan Cumming is at this point in proceedings a much more upbeat. Yes character and Melbourur just essentially says history has not taught us that it all comes out in the wash. History has taught us that we're pardon my French, but we're potentially fuck. Well here we go again and I said this in did the show called years and years which was many old days when We talk about pigs getting elected as mayor and and Caligulum married a horse. and the horse was part of the Senate and think here we go. Yeah. this is where we're heading. They were't they were't They weren't any less human than us those people who did those things. They were us. Yeah. And that whole it couldn't happen here thing just gets chipped away and the other side of the Atlantic all chipped away to the point of obliteration. And now the chipping here is I go back to my mama down those classics books. Yes, I bet the fall of civilization. because if you read about Greek and Roman stuff, you read about the civilization to the fall them Godds that have gone And I think it' steeped in me Hello from me, crrime journalist Andy Hughes. and one of the hosts of the Cime agents. This is true crime like you've never heard before. And I'm the XCOop Neil Bassu. Well, XCOop isn't really doing it justice, isn' itt Neil? I mean, you did head up every major department in Europe's biggest police force, the mighty Met. you're no slouch in the crime department yourself after twenty years as a investigative reporter and also as an undercover journalist. On this podcast, we tackle the major crime stories in the news like the arrest of Andrew Mountbatten Windsor, as well as delving into some of the most famous cases in criminal history, like The murder of Stehen Lawrence. Check out the crrime agents on Global Player, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts Second moment of conscious pretention then because I interviewed I in his lock during the immediate aftermath of Brexit and I was hoping he would provide me with and comfort and And he kind of did. And I said, how do you stay optimistic? And he said, I go back to the classics. and I remind myself that it has all happened before. Yes, I get that. So it's not unique and it's not unprecedented and it will end. this two shall pass. Well be over hundreds of years, if not five hundred years. I remember that's the dancer. I remember great commentators like Katelyn Morran I love Kathlyn Morran, fine writer that went the Trump's first election writing a really positive piece saying, I think this is the end of an era. I think this is the last great shout of these men And here we are with this shouting getting louder and stronger. and I think, oh my God, if someone is wise as that is wrong. us. Did your intelligence emerge? I mean, I don't imagine anyone was particularly surprised to discover that you were bright, but was it recognised early? It was in a housefulull of teachers to be honest, yes. Yeah I went to a great big compensive school, which I remember a teacher there very wise and clever teacher Iris Williams there saying the problem with a school like this is that The intelligent kids are taught to be quiet and that you don't put your hand up. That's true a lot of schools but certainly school my big is like if you knew the answer, you didn't say so. And it was good to have that pointed out to you at the age of fourteen, fifteen of night. And she wasn't saying stick your hand up but she was saying, we noticice. Oh gosh, That is a really importantbsolutely Absolutely. It wass very, very good. And I had a good dad as well because it's he was very much he was a great sportsan. He was huge in Welh rugby He was ch capaptain Swanie, chairman of Swanie rugy, life chairman of Swanie Rugy at one point. So of course every games teacher wanted me to be a rugby player. And that was a lot of pressure and a lot of trouble. that just wasn't me at all. And he stepped into that sort was saying, you just go and do whatever you want to do. I think I went a bit far, J without any spinning in his grave. now we're powerowering the national grid off his grave spin. without any sense of disappointment Be know he loved you. Oh, absolutely. He never he never understood. It's like I went to television when I left television to become a writer in which was right about nineteen ninety four and so I actually gave up the office job to live at home and write. We never told him L li for about another fifteen years Is it have been terrifing real? Yes. he couldn't understand a freelance life. That was literally beyond him, you know in the Yeah know when my dad left the army, was in the first Second World War, when he left, he was in love with a woman called Margaret Ratliff, I think his her name was and from Shordditch. and they'd been together in the army in Malta. He had stories about hosing down boats of Jews to stop them coming into harbour. know and how traumatized he was by them understand all that And they fell in love and a little wartime romance and then when they came home, And she went back to London and he went back to Swansea. It was literally impossible. for a Welsh man to marry a cockney. That was impossible. She traveled to see him, Viv, I love you. No, he said. I mean, these's talkking about war damage to individuals as well. And she went she tried and tried and tried, I love you. And it's like everyone, all his friends lined up and said, you cannot marry a cockony That's what a different world that was. That's the world he was brought up in. So for him then to have like a son who turns out to be gay and Two daughters are b both divorced and then he had his limits. So me working from home was the limit of all the thing. We finally just got never tell him that's happened. How do you know that story? He told that story when I didn't know that tntil my mum died. And then when Yeahah, when my mother's mother died, she came out with all sorts of stories about her past when when she died, my dad came up with funn of those funeral nights, he came out with all sorts of family histories that I'd never heard before. You don't realize how many dimensions your parents have, do you until some I'veot a lot about that woman I hed she was happy Yes, I'm sure I'm sure she found someone else and married again and was married and was happy I wonder. And what precisely was it? Be it wasn't class? wasas it just tribalist? Tribal is cockney? Yes, Yes it was class. I think I think did she run a pub from a pub own I've made that up. but No, she wasn't posh or it was just we just don't do just cockney. We don't do cockney. Cckney was an enemy. Yes,es Yeah Welsh and Cckney. Well, Welsing English, if you're rugby player is bad enough anyway. So I wasishing to I think it was deputy head. I get all my pronunciations are I say Olkf Okfa, whichich means scrubbing place. Does it? We were scrubbers in at school. It's of wh it' Wh whistnel and e I, is't it? when he shouts out the van, when sccrubbers out the window of the van I did you being told by Iris Williams to wind your neck in them. She was just pointing out that she knew you were clever and that you wouldn't be able to make a song. If you'd gone to a school like mine, the opposite would have happened. You'd have been put on pay. They were very clever. They looked after the clever kids. They I mean out of school of two thousand three hundred pups They had fifteen each year that sent to Oxbridge. This is a big figure. comprehensive fig The seventies, I think that was unheard of. Yeah. And and that was a program she led. So well done. There was no, you know, they were like and she was to put you on it shortly, but. But before that Did you have a show off Je then in class? didid you draw attention to in other ways? Gobby. I was kind of gobby and sarky. That was my way of kind of Sviving? Yes. it was rough in a sense in many corners of that school And so I was just, well, I think they' two it's funny. your're many things. Yes Uh, because Afra they Alan Yetob did a documentary about me, which was very nice. I know a lot of people going, o Russell's so lovely. and all that sort of stuff. And a friend of mine did an interview with them which was cut. and he said, actually, I said how quiet you were. When you at the BBC, how you just sat there and hardly ever said a wordough, Ohh, that version of me is true as well. It's interesting He he said he said it was just quiet, you just sat in the office and watched it for. absorbed it on and whated what was going? I, was I? And then I thought about it. I thought, yeah, actually. So it's funny. There's lots of wereere you waiting for something? think I think I think I think this is called psychology. Yeah. but I do think I became a writer, well, I had a writer shaped brain, so that's just a fact. but I think I particularly became a writer. When I'm gay thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, years old. so everyone else is getting pissed. E else trying drugs and they're in kitchens or parties drying their eyes out or having sex on the lawn and stuff like that and you're just watching it all sort of pretending to be part of it yeah like that, but actually just sitting about watching it and working out why she's not going out with him and why he's not going out with her and just finding it all very interesting. I mean you could watch that and not become a storyteller. if you've got a storyteller's brain I think there's very useful years in which to soak it all up and absorb it. So I think I'm quite in that sense. Yeah. So because your inside and outside those stories. Yeah. Yes,. You're not like you're not alienated or. Well, I think you feel outside them. thing you playing a small violins. Also you couldn't cop off you didn't cop off No Exactly exactlyQ quite a big part of those you. And I Well that's why gays go mad in their twenties and thirties and run around h a lot of sex because actually all people who might object to that, they were doing it when they were fourteen. Yes. I saw them. it was all happening U Did you haveave an early ambition to write? I mean I know you said you were drawing, but did you because I'm conscious of that one of the lines that pops up a lot in these interviews is It wasn't for the likes of you. I sense that no one ever would have Sat on your dreams, whatever they were, whether you thought you were going be a no. Apart from being a freelaner, But every other element of the possible creative life would have seemed both feasible and viable. Yeah well, it didn't seem feasible. Did it not? Because I didn't come from that although that's a bit. that's the geography. Yes, And when you're living in Swansea, what I love now is the Television and cinema is all being made outside London Yeah. But then it was all in London to have a job in L little bit in Manchester. A Little bit of Manchester, E exactly. and that's where why I ended up going Yeah. But a tiny bit in Cardiff But in Cardiff, you felt like you had to be a Welsh speaker, which I'm not's not strictly true, but it's how it felt. You thought you'd never get anywhere without being able to speak Wels to the extent that in my twenties I was considering learning to speak Welsh to get on Yeah somewhere. So so I didn't think it was vial. So I didn't walk around saying, o my Godd, I'm going to be a writer until I did get jobs in television and then I started to meet writers. and then I just saw that as the most perfect life and the most wonderful life I could do that. Yes. Yes, with a strong sense of that as well.. Yes a conviction. I could do that. The youth theater then? Yeah. How old were you when you first walked through the door? I was I must have well I did school plays when I was eleven so I was being twelve. The drama teacher still lives round the corner fromont me in Swanseie in her nineties now Cecily Hughes. look gorgeous. beautiful. It did bottom I think in a midsumone out' dreams Swanseie, my bottom. Thank you. I know.. Well I can beat that a teacher at my school said that James O'Brien's bottom was the finest thing to grace the Aple fourth stage since Rupert Everet's Titannia But did you do drama? is So why not I mean were you not dreaming of being an actor then? I was yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And that was great fun. That was a good actor. It was really funny. Yeah clearly. But they didn't give bottom to anybody. but it was weir had to come Actually to then be growing up being friendly with people who were going to become actors sixteen seventeen and eighteen, at that age, sixteen seventeen I realized you had to want to do it one hundred percent. And I ninety percent wanted to be an actor. but I'm glad I was sort of open eyed enough to think no. And it was at Glamorggan You Theatater that you started writing for performance as well. Yes, they started me writing there I hold Wesom Morggan Youew Theatre to be the thing that created me actually and made me And if you look at we mentioned before we went on air about funding in thises, Wescoom Morgan County Council used to fund the Wescomorggan Youth Theatre, the youth Orchestra, which was vast orchestra of one hundred plus, a youth choir, a youth dance company, a youth jazz band. Calm down everyone. It's like, wow, all about funding With residential courses, with staff, with instructions O on truly all gone It's shocking. It is. and I know you do your bit to keep you try. Some bits of afoatonderful Michael Shen was part of that youth theater. He does an awful lot to try and keep it afloat now. because I return to this point sometimes because I didn't need that experience in order to appreciate culture. But when I went to Manchester in nineteen eighty eight to do Manchester Youth Theatre with actually a few people who' subsequently popped up in your shows I realize that there were kids there who were on grants. They get a council grant to spend six weeks in Manchester and they never would have walked into a there let alone onto a stage. Absolutely. Otherwise and entire generations It's a bit like the theme of tiptoe. It's as if we are currently in reverse gear, not just in neutral or idling the engine. We're in reverse You have to sit and explain to people why you want children to be part of theatre and creativity and media. as if it needs explaining? An way you never have to do with sport No And actually you're likely to get more good actors out of school than you would to get England footballers. It's much more likely what a world. So just a quick word then, Russell on why it is so important because you weren't unhappy at school. But your tribe, your tribe was was school school I've kind of kept my head down. I was a bit sulky, a bit lippy. I could I wasn't picked on much by the bullies because I was tall also. by I remember tall. I was a six, six then Yeah buteptember sixteen, I was I'm shrinking now. I'm about time to six four But I would probably don't unless you get left alone if at all. Right. You do. just this big willow And u but and I just kept my head and that is a gay thing I kept my head down, could do the homework everyveryone was happy with the work and stuff like that, but my real self began to emerge in that youth theatre And alongside that, thanks to the deputy head, the sites are set on Oxford. Yes, ye, it could have automatically set. I've got to say I passed the exams and went there and had a nice time I look back and think I could have skipped those three years. Oh really? Well I'm in a job where I've never ever had to give my qualification. No. I've never had to tell anyone my O levels or A levels or certainly not my degree never. Nor. That's weird isn't there any They told us you need those things? really didn't, we never did accept. we were learning along the way actually in that process. And also because you'd already found your theatrical feet, you didn't need University drama societies too. Did you get I did all that. I did acting there I I was once in Rosencranz and Gildensten are D dead. I was Rosencranz with Tom Stoppart in the audience. Wow. And Miriam Stoppart. Yeah, yeah, that was in the Oxord playayhouse, that was a nice moment. But but you were sort of wanting to Yeah kind of wr yes, I put on one of my own plays there, play called Box. I put on there. So it was starting to tick away. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But again, I never believed writing was possible what was a great help during those years was love of Doctor Who Because Doctor Who is more the behind the scenes stuff on Doror Who is so fully documented, so open and has been since the seventies. So with doctor Who you'd be able to read books in which the writers would say, I wrote this, I created this story, I invented this robot, I invented the Daleks to, which no other program would talk about no the veil was lifted on doctor Who. So you would see jobs as writer, as script editor, as storyteller, as producer, like you would on nothing else. So it's amazing what an education that. The anatome ofaty it showed you ways through that you could do that. I never would have known. Yeah. And only doctor Who had that And you have now not just contributed to the canon of the shows, but contributed to the canon of the the lid lifting We open up that but it's funny. I've just doing some behind the scene stuff for Tiptoe this morning and They apologize for something. and I said, Oh't worry I invented this. genally becausecause at the moment we started dou in two thousand five, it was like open the doors. I want every magazine, I want everything on video. I want every personal video diary, everything, everything, everything on screen. it helps.reat it creates the mind againgain, it's not it's not the mouth it comes out of. it's the mind that goes into and if it goes into your mind and you are that person, it'll inspire you. and the more complete the world is, the more The magical the immersion in it. Yes, the richer experience. The richer the experience. All of which makes it a crying shame that crossroads never happen You know I often think I had a chance to write Crossroads in when was it nineteen I can't remember the years, but also when I was the Grenada in the nineties, I was begging eighty three eighty three in the nineties, then I was begging to work on Cination Stream. and they were very like the royal family then it's like, we will dign to look upon you when the time is right.. They were like that. And by the time the time is right, I'd written Queer Stoke and I had a sense of freedom And I'm so glad because I think I would have stayed on it forever. I think I've never written all these things. if I' joined Coronation Street in nineteen ninety nine, I would have stayed. And I'd be one of those old lags sitting around the table now and very happy. Yeah in a nice regular wage for thirty years, but than God I didn't. Absolutely. Thank God. But the Coronation Street the crossroads things was your first introduction to the The fragile nature of the industry I first looked around at a drama studio. I wrote a script, sent it off to them. they said, this is good. They brought me up to Birmingham and I looked around the sets which were literally the smallest and shakiest sets that you could ever possibly see And but I kind of realized it was possible. It was first the fact that they plucked my script off a pile add that and said Well it's like and well I could write when I wrote my very first script, which is called Dark season, there was, I mean, I got I've just gott to be honest, there was a bidding war over there. The BBC liked it, and ITV liked it, and they fought over it. And so you kind of sit there going, o, I can write Yeah Yeah exact moments to go right So what was the first Whatob been Telly, then, what was the first? It was behind the scene. A friend of mine I just directed a Mids night's dream at the Sherman Theatre in Cardiff. and a lovely woman there called Jill Reese said There's a job going at the PBC working with kids on the studio floor. It was a program called Why donon't you Sitch off your television and go do something that' foring In. And which was presented by children. It were games puzzles and recipes for the school holidays presresented entirely by children with no Adults. So it needed someone on the studio floors and the director was sittit in the gallery. Obviously the studio floor has a floor manager, but the floor manager isn't necessarily trained in working with kids and giving them instructions. The floor manager doesn't have to be good at working with kids. Okay. And also often The floor manager by the nature of Dob Buffffan arrived that morning and just do the job. They han't been in rehearsals or anything. So they needed someone who was the kid's friend on the studio floor who could and also direct them who could say, lookook, that bit's not funny, change this line. lookook at the camera here. donon't look at the camera there. So I was The Floor director for the kids, which I loved. I stayed on that show for about five years. I've never stayed on a job that long ever. E since, but I loved it. It was properly fun And you learn everything on that job as well. Right You also went on location you did. in the days when you go on location with film cameras, actual films thirteen, sixteen Millimeter film. and you go into the dub, you the mix, everything, you can learn everything in children's time. So it's an apprenticeship in a great apprenticeship. Be there's not enough money in children's. so you end up doing everything, which is great. And are you mean Wait with Were you conscious of assembling a machine that would take you somewhere else? Yes, I loved it. The moment I watch in that stududio C in Candf in Cardiff I was like, this is that was a big moment for me. And it' the smell of it. I can smell it now No other studios ever smell like that. And I was just like this is it. That's old fashion. It's old fashioned. a multi camera studio with no boom cameras and all that. You don't have them anymore hardly. But oh I loved it. And yeah, that was me thinking Yes, I like this. What was the next big moment The next big moment but actually that happened on that job where they then asked me to write the script. They part I sense that I was clever And I wrarde a scrip for fifty id. and the producer went, Ohh, that's good. Can you write them all? And he phoned me an old fashion phone call. phone me like,'s good Can you write them all next Friday or something? I was like, Yes, C like. an electric typewriter. James. There was such a thing as an electric typewriter, I sat my electric typewiter Roth in Cardiff and type those out and yeah That was a great moment of me. That was me telling myself what job I wanted to do. It into my hands. It came out my hands. Yeah ye. So you're up and running. Yeah, I could have been I love directing. Okay. It was a great moment of like loving directing and I went on a BBC director's course where they train you in there into directing live stuff, you directing mult directing bands in studio. I loved. I lo that I love that so much with such intensity. Right that I gave it up. I thought that's gonna consume I was like three in the morning, I had camera plans going through my heads working out where to. What would have been wrong with that? Well, yes, I obviously had other things I wanted to do. Right. I thought Be I sense you're pretty consumed by the writing. so it's they're being consumed It was It was the room for it. Eactly exactly. being consumed by It was things like when I was at the BBC they said Oh God, you're a good director now. you've trained director. So will you become a direct record breaker? Yeah Reord breakers? I another guy. Yeah So you was pointing direct. actually wanting to direct is very different to getting the right jobs to direct. So I felt like I thought you're not getting me. If you think I'm going to direct record breakers, you can think it. So you shut that door and open the writing door wider. stories were and I was starting to write scripts more and more and more and those scripts were becoming proper scripts Then I wrote my first draft script, which was called Dog. and then that got commissioned like bang bang bang. Where does children's world fit into this tradition? That so during that Dog that was day And I moved to Grrenada. Okay. I was already being to stick my head above the pyramid going. Well, I was at the BBC making children's shows, which was lovely, but in Manchester half a mile down the road was a beautiful Grrenada building with a great big grrenarda sign at the top of it, that just font of that thing. where they were making dramas and children's shows and the coronation street and cracker and prime suspect and itelt like it felt like I was in the wrong factory. It felt like I was in the lunchtime factory and dinner was being made over there. and I was like, I want that dinner. I started to meet people there and I just actually left my job at the BBC with no job to go to cheeky when you're young,' arrogant Yeah. I left it with no job to go to people saying I will sit on the dll until I get a job in that building in the Gada builduing. And I think about two weeks passed and I got a job. and I mean, what pedigree, and Paul Abott K Hller. I mean the Sy Waywright of course was surrounded by extraordinary talent. My first dayss work was to go onto Children's Ward, created by Paul Abbott K Mella and to sit with them. And the good thing was I already I had my own drama coming up on BBC one. I was sitting there going yeah in six months time, I got to think Dark seasason on BC onene. So it felt I wasn't just a kid walking in and they were immensely respectful of that. Paul and Kay are just the most delightful people. loveovely Kay is no longer with us. and the help they gave people, the mentorship, the laughs, the drink, the fun just gorgeous and the sense For the first time in your life of being at the center of everything, being exactly where you wanted to be. Yes, loving it. Yes absolutely. and learning storylining stuff you'd learn off the so purpose. I mean, once you come off so purpose there's a lot to unlearn as well And not just in your professional life, because of course in your personal life Manchester Canal street. Yes Manester. It's also the center of or a center of the unit. first time I saw going up properly two things happen really. It's like, I didn't go out all the time because the moment I started working with all these writers and realizing how brilliant it was that that I knew I wanted to become a writer. I'd always known that really, except then it became a fact So actually what I started to do was save my momoney. everyveryone says to you, you'll be poor. You were live in an attic. It's like when I left the BBC, the headad of Children's Anna Hume said, you would be poor. it's very hard to get work as a writer. So fine, I'll do that. And so I think about it in the nineties, I saved. out of my weight twenty thousand pounds. It's a fortune. It is. That's no That was my wage. just so I hardly ever went out. One point my friend did to tell me off for like wearing shoes that were falling apart because I wouldn't buy new shoes. I was just saving and saving and saving for that day when I left so that I could So that when I left to write full time, I would never have to fall back on a daytime job. with twenty thousand pounds was the figure on my head that I could last for two years. And in those says you could survive So thousand was your safety Yes it was my safety net to say I'm going go and write that That willon be successful. I won't stve.'ve I won't st won't it'll take a while, so I don't want to fall back ' I've always theres always a day job in television that I can go back to behind the scenes, but I would always be in demand there, but I don't want to do that. But But you did, you went out enough to create a sort of family, a sort of second family. Yes at the same time. Yes, yes, yes. I meanbe that was after that was after later. Once I started because having decided I wanted to be a writer and leaving Gada I think I'll workk straight away So actually all that money I saved is still there. I never got touch to it, which is great. You know, I would say that to any right to save your money and pay your tax be ready for the tax. But then once I began to think, oh, this is okay, then I started to go out properly. So There was never then a kind of given the role that doctor Who plays in your formative Yes and in your later years as well In a way, it's not immediately obvious that you would become so quickly concerned with very real life As opposed to sort of fantasy or Yeah. I mean, I know what you mean, but that's not true, is it? Be we anyone can love Star Trek and love politics and love. I just wondered some people might have tried desperately to emulate what they had enjoyed. The very first things I wrote were Dark seeason, which was like a Doctor Who thing. Yes. and then the next thing was called Century Falls which was Like one of those spooky things, again, a bit doctor Hooy, but much more supernatural. So that was the start, but at the same Springhill had a bit supernatural ministry.es. that was the birth of the Antichrist.. Yeses. But at the same time you're working with Paul Abbt. You're working with Kay. Jimmy McGovern was there. Frank Cultural Boyce was there. So actually and Sally Wayight is this great Manchester School Yeah of and actually maybe possibly fundamentally it was Kay Meller writing Band of Gld. about sex workers and she made it salty and rude and dark and violent and fun And that was remember it's been forgotten slightly back to gold. It was a revolution at the time. The fact that that could be so successful. and that was a big turning point for me watching my friend. Write that and it being so amazing and so dark and so so much part of the real world that we hadn't seen. The lives of sex workers, That's what Bander Gold was. It was amazing. And does that take us to the grand kindind of that's happening at the same time. That was one of my learning grounds where that's like that was like to be honest, I just inherited that becausecause that's like the downton Abbey of its day very cheap literally The script had fallen through They didn't have a writer. They needed a script in two weeks Paul Abbott was there in the office and they said, Paul, who can write this in two weeks? He wr Russell Davis? And theyve phld me, I went, yes, I'll do it. And then ended up on this show for two years, which I never quite owned. So it was a bit strange. was something I might naturally have sat down and gone. I'm dying to write about the nineteen twenties. But you were dying to write about Manchester. Yeahes, AIDes Well, what happened on the ground was, it wasn't working. It never quite worked as a concept. It was slight. I read that you thought it was al right after episode fourteen. Yeah. I couldn't write in the very last episode. The right person inherited the hotel at the end. Susan Hampshire inherited the hotel of the last episode and you went that's a show. now I can write it. It was slightly out of control as a show. It wasn't being produced very well and it was all a bit mad. and so I had to kind of build a shell around myself and just write what I wanted. And so I made one of the characters gay. Right In nineteen twenty, working class nineteen twenty story and suddenly you find yourself writing better than I'd ever written before. So you just find your way. I know you're saying, whereere do these stories come from And they just they reveal themselves to you in the end and they're in your heart. the moment I looked into my heart when I get this, I'm not born in the nineteen twenties, obviously, but I ke get being lonely, I kept being closeted, I kept being single, I can write that. And there's Clive. and there's Clive. playlayed by Paul Warrenner in a wonderful performance. Yeah. And suddenly I hadd written something that was streets ahead of anything I'd ever written before And I knew you knew that. Yes. I knew it. absolutely. They kind of tried they didn' The richness of the character. the truth of it. The tr richness. It was very it was clever. It was imaginative. The structure of it was clever. It wasn't just gay, gay, gay now. was it was clever, it was sharp, there's a twist at the end. Great twist at the end. So I was at full power. I was quite fond of a twist at the end, aren't you Rus? Yes. Exactly. That was my first, I would love that one That is a very big one coming. And quQeer as folk is gest stating during this period. Yes. I mean, got to bear in mind that no one had any concept back then that that could happen. a very marvellous woman at channel four called Katrina Mcenzie who worked with me on the ground. She then moved to channel four and then she said it's Channel four's job to do stuff that's more revolutionary and more radical, come and write about gay life over here and her boss as well Cob Neil. And that was and incredibly that hadn't been done. No It's amazing. Its look about thing is But itn't, it isn't Yeah. I mean's yeah But I do think was I do that I was part of a rising tide. Y. It's like that conversation could have happened with with Jonathan Harvey There was women who went on to make bad girls. I was lucky that I was I was lucky I got the grand. so I was in I was seen done a gay hour of TV that really worked. So I became the man to do it. but it would have been someone else if it hadn't been me. They pick it up after I think a one hundred page draft Was it? I forgotten that say that? Oh I wonder. It probably sploows everything onto the page and then And it gets I mean it launches in February of nineteen ninety nine. This changes everything for you, I think in every sense.be imaginable. It life before life after you. I'm sure. Absolutely.? Did you know that it was going to explode No, we honestly thought it would disappear because it was like for stters it wasn't to go to nine o'clock. they said it was go out to ten o'clock. And then a couple of weeks before transmission, they said it's going to go out to ten thirty. When now these times don't matter to it's an course at the time. lived or died by the transmission slot. And the moment they moved it to ten thirty, me and Nicola, my brilliant producers said, o, it's dead and bear in mind how much people used stay the piss side of channel four back then and well still do to some extent. But you remember how there' been a documentary on about duvet makers in Tibet or something? And that was seem like the ultimate show. It was the channel that showed documentaries about old women making duvets in Tibet or blankets or knitted something whatever. So that was it was so I thought we were in that slot R of let Oh where the obscure niche bit of nons. Yeah. So we very much felt it was that until it transmitted and then that was like w. But how good did you think it was? In the way that when you wrote Clive, you knew it was the best thing you'd do. I knew it was good. and I never knew that about how good But that doesn't guarantee anything. No. Oh my go. Oh my go, no, no, no. I kind of I know enough of a gay world to know that it would always have a niche if any gay f goes along, then it's part of the record.. You know it's remembered. And so I always thought right it would be part of the record but whether you sit on the shelf and gather dust or whether you' alive And it was great to see that take off. It was so exciting. How big a propulsion was the backlash the T. It wasn't it's kind of overrated. Yeah I thought it might have been. it was more ignored than o than L you'd look in the papers like what's on Tantelli on Tuesday night and it wouldn't be there And it was a new drama on at ten thirty at night. You know you should at least list it saying But it beMaz. it say D's a on it tonight, the street, whatever it was. did that make you feel That was annoying though. Yeah, it wasnt annoying. Yes, you felt very powerless. Yeah ye. And again, all these structures were new there now. That happened now somehow, you'd have systems to complain. I don't know who to complain to who to sort that out with immediately. The whole world of PR and their relationship with the papers is much more of a system now. thenen it was just like, oh, big shrug like, oh gosh,h dear So how did you Register the fact that it was going gangbusters then. It was little things, it was the sponsors pulling out. R remember Bexby pulled out? That was kind of exciting. That was great. I love that. That was no easy. Apparently the chairman's daughter was here from Germany and watched it on a hotel television, phoned a papa, papa, said we must pull out of the show that And I'll tell you what it was. it was there was a protest in Manchester in daytime to keep the Oldham Coliseum theatre, O was it the Bolton Oxam? It was one of those theaters protesting daytime properly organized with like school kids there and banners and a march and I went along in daytime And so two of the star two of the cast of quQerous folk, not the leads. It was Adam Zane who played one of one of their gamemates and Alison Burros who played Stuart' Secretary. So lovely actors, small parts, admittedly They arrived, this bus full of school kids arrived and the school girls started to scream over them like screaming at the Beatles. W and went mad over them and running up to them. And that's when I actually went, o, something's happening here. That was really fatty. thought, Oh my God, all those girls are watching it. thirteen, forty year old girl. they're screaming when they see some of the supporting cast. And that was like, okay, that that was great. I loved that moment. What do you think it happened? Why did you think it hit those marks? I mean, those girls were loving it. I think I especially love that teenage girl audience they were just loving it. Right didn't carry The weight of the politics, the history of TV, the repercussions, the consequences, the weight of it, they were just loving something cheeky and funny and sexy. And in a way, that's the best audience. U and and and and there was a lot of protest. I mean, a lot of the protest was from the gays were up in arms about it saying, you know, we're seen as drug taking and sex mad and blah, blah, blah blah, blah And lesbians were complaining that it didn't represent lesbian life. put E the Hall as when they h lead lesbians in it. Um So I expected all the gay protests that' surprised me, but things like thenen the soundtrack got to number one Yeah. and like It's those stang on them. Yeah it's those popular things The protests don't matter because that might be a hundred people, it might be a thousand people, it's not going to be that many people.. But when things to beunt when things are selling, then you're like o, right. Okaykay, that's something. It's nice. And you can then do Quite whatever you want next or could you I mean, that's never quite true. No one never wants to give away money. No But yes. and to be honest that that queerers fk door stayed open even when Last year when I went to channel four with Tipto Bear mad, all the staff have changed. There's no one there there twenty five years ago, but even then The headads of Dama at Channel four said, Look, you make queerest work for us. These doors are open to you. Even then after twenty and that's immensely kind. They didn't have to do that. Do doesn't mean they're going to commission it. it means come in for a meeting and tell us your idea. So they get first look is it. They get first look, exactly. it were lovely and obviously liked it. And I really appreciate that because you don't have to do that What's the process? Because I mean, we're in the period of your life now that people will be familiar with. And if they're not familiar with you particularly, they're certainly and they probably are, but they're certainly familiar with the work that you've done and the shows that you've made. So we sort of now you move through Bob and Rose and the second coming building blocks, then you go to Doctor Who, then you go to America with with the sppin off is not a wrongd to. Yeah it is with torchwood and and And yet Always you've got the two When you when you're thinking, what am I going to do next? do you think right now I'm going to do a real life. State of the nation, peace. seeee what you mean? Yeahight years and years, orr do you think, o, I really fancy a bit of I never quite know. Okay but it's kind of unplanned and yet some part of me is obviously planning it. It's literally whatever bubbles up. is in my head? And clearly when you look at it, it's also contrary I think I think there's something about I do queer so Th then I do Bobin Rose, which is about a gay man fall in love with woman. N Gs didn't like that at all. What I did it Sin why didn't they? Becauseuse was I mean, it happened. If you want to misinterpret that show. Okay, then it looks like the gay man was waiting for the right It would come along. So it was a bit if you want to impose that reading. Okay following on it that was two thousand one when the whole notion of fluidity Okay, labels was a lot less. The world was a lot more rigid But that look into that the Whenever wrot it's a sin, and then wr when wrote noolly. I mean, who expected me to go and write about the life of a soap star from the nineteen eighties having done it tos sin Well, I think it was unfinished business, wasn't it? It it's a bit absurd as a change. And now done Dr. Huen and now coming back to tiptoe. So I like that. I like to keep swinging it round and not quite being My brain likes that. There's no plan behind that, but some part of me goes o, something different for God' sake. I mean it's a sin was Do you have favorites in your cat? I mean, I have toie. I mean again, that's kind of life changing. Yeah. It changed my own life. I think I mean, I'm very lucky because I wrote queerers folk in nineteen eighty. you kind of ex kind of expect I have one big success.thers But I've had three queerous folk doctor who and then you think it's over and they think, wow, I'll just keep working for the rest of it. and then itin comes along and And'm like, wow, I've got three tenth polls there. I feel like the luckiest man in the world. I just feel like I've worked very, very hard for them. Well yeah, clearly. it's almost Well, it is quite hard to believe the sheer volume of work that you've done when you look at the finished products on screen and acknowledge you know that that's the tip of an iceber, I' p of it. I bet you're out of all those actors I work with I I'm very lucky Which Br and you work, you'd like to come back with the same actor sometimes as well and come back through again. It's both. It's like youd have to come up the same one you' also a tart of the same work. I remember I was asking a director to like, whyyven't you part that would be perfect for that man you worked with before. Why haven' you cast him anyw went, David Evans anyw, I'm Yeah And he's right. I thought I picked that up. I was like, Yeahah, you just want to have the next sensation so then we come to Tipto another Clive, although he doesn't bear much for his em. H name is that You you like that Cive. A lot there was that Catherine Tate was going to marry a clive in doctor Who Yeah's I like the I and the V the capapital C. I like it on the page. I think it's a looking isn't it? It's got a shape as well. Yes exactly that clive. And Leo, played by Alen Cummy too, act is absolutely on the top of that game I it is I've only watched episode one very deliberately, well for two weeks.n. No, no, not. I'm not apologise. Well, I will, if you want. But I wanted to conduct the interview in that position of knowing that I'm now like, oh my iddy ar And is it F Jesus Yeah. Well that's the second reason is that I don't like I didn't want to watch all five episodes sitting down on my laptop effectively with with the channel for branding and all the security gear. I want to watch it with my daughter and my wife and I want to start again and watch the whole thing all the way through, although I don't think we're doing in five sittings. I suspect there'll be a little bit of speeding up It's extraordinary From the very first scene That's an opening scene. It's and then the acting and then the sense that's very quickly established that this is I mean it's not a play is it? But it is it's it'st Oh no deed goes unpunished. No in this thing, everyone gets it wrong All the time every word goes wrong, every text goes wrong, every phone call goes wrong. every message goes wrong, every good deed you could possibly try to do backfires on you. It's a really, really tough piece of work.. And it keeps getting tougher and tighter and tighter tighter. Aagonizer. Yes. But I think it also m itakes a lot of fun don't get me wrong. Yeah a huge amount of.ly cast Allan C coming in anything that wouldn't be a lot of fun. Davidorrisy is just those two You know, they're like old mates. They've known each other for forty years and had never ever together How amazing. Isn't that amazing? It is amazing. They did their first scene together on Canal Street, we giveave them a little round of applause. Be it was like it was magic and they were really really moved by it. That is What a great moment to be there. Be years and years was the state of the world on on. This is a bit years in the years across Ger of folk, I think. Okay I'm glad you said that. I almost thought at one point I said, lookook at the very beginning, we could put up a caption sink next year. Yes. We didn't, but yes yes Yes. What happens in this is about to happen. It's atomization. it's atomization. It's the anger that's rising there. the role that Machines in our hands are playing. Absolutely, abolutely. But also it's like It In that sense, it's not particularly a gay drama. could this could be a Jewish drama. This could absolutely be a disabled drama I've got a friend who's disabled. Pe now knock on her door. Stangers knock on a door and say I saw you walking. Right. Strangers knocking on their door. It's the way This online anger is transferring into the real world. We've known about the whole death threat culture for ten or twenty years. and to the extent that we' will shrug about it. I mean for ten or twenty years I've been saying a death threat online is no more serious than saying, o my God is religious. Is that we're just saying. And I think it's beginning to change now now people are knocking on doors and turning up husband used to was partly disabled. He had twenty seven brain he had seven brain operations because he had brain cancer. so he used to walk with a stick. Lads would walk past him In town in Manester and say you were limping on the other foot ten minutes ago. you bastards. Yeah. I've never been more angry my life than that The malice of that unbelievable. So it's the crossing over. It's the dangerous Well it's crossover. The same with the flags and the marches isn't it? It's like this was confined to social media where you could show the self that you wouldn't show in public and then they're hanging out the flags and they're marching in And it's marching closer and closer to all of us. Well, the burn of hotels Yeah. It's like let's burn down a hotel that's got people in it. Yeah. That's then welcome you onto I can have that conversation and I didn't need to explain that reference to you. We all know that's part of British life now. the threat to burn down hotels. What is this world It's a boiled frog, Russell, isn't it? Because it takes moments like these like you pick up on in Tiptoe to actually proper look in the rearview mirror because when you're in the car they're just flying by. Even when you do what I do for a living, it o here we go And I occasionally have shows where I just go And this is the dramatic equivalent of those moments. and I wish it would change the world and it wentn't to talkking for a second. But but you've still got to do it. Well It was recorded. Yes. I think someday, I believe some Great ledger will be taken, not being religious storory at the time One day people will look at the twenty first century. and I honestly believe if we survive and I'm not sure about that. butine I like to imagine cinema audiences in five hundred years time laughing at us typing at each other back on Gene Ally and love. It's like primitive was that Now there'll be dramas where we all sit and type on our phones and be hooting. peopleople in the audience be hooting going how mad they were. I honestly believe that age will again will come one day. What are the things I've already picked up on is the fact that it could it could happen to anybody. Yeah what you're talking about. And I believe the event at the heart of this will happen in some shape or form one day. I mean, if I'd written without going into detail, if I'd written a stabbing at the beginning Yeah, well, that's already happened. Yes that will happen tomorrow. I you know, I've gone for something bigger with this weird sense of justice to it That's happen. It damn, it's gone its way. And when it does, and please God, it doesn't. But when it does, it won't have been done by somebody who was created in a laboratory to be evil. It will be done by somebody who gone the other way. a sense of goodness, righteousness and certainly a sense of their own country. and the patriotism behind it astonishing, astonishing. It's like when I mean, I'm just sick of it when When that toddler washed up on the shores of Greece, we all looked at that picture and said everythingthing must change now. It's only got worse. It's only got worse. Now that's a normal thing now. What are we doing I feel we should end on a more upbeat note, but I'm not sure that what are you doing next? Yep. I don't actually know. I about in there's a Rombert who used to be ballet Rombert are doing a stage show of It's a Sin, whichich is gonna be ready Yeah. It's gonna beaz. It's not a musical. Did you take calls like that and just go? Yeah. Well actually I'd fought off It's a Sin musical for a long time. Have you I thought it was a banging soundtrack, wasn't it? So you can see why people wantan to do that was than. But a dance show. they did a Peaky bllindness dance show. Yes and this which was really all accounts. Yeah It's going be this and and it's very, very exciting. So that's coming in twenty twenty seven And I'm just I'm kind of I'm having a nice time, I'm kind of not rushing to write the next thing. I'm going to start now tiptoe, we finished work on that next week and I'll start writing the next one. So that's script will take few months, then we'll start talking to people about it, so I won't be back filming anything until next year, really Just just as an indication of how absolutely up to the whyire Tiiptoe is, I mean we're having this conversation three weeks before the first episode goes out on channel four and yet you're not going to finish putting it together until next week. Well there are referenceses to Kir Starmer and Kamy Badino that we're clinging on with our teeth to say let them still be in power by the time we get there. In fact there's one line episode one that was like bloody Kiestama. and on set on that day I said, should we just change that to the legacy of Kir Starmer in case he's gone and we've got a few weeks. it might still happen. In fact, it could happen tomorrow. Its So it's very topical and I love that. I think that's really, really exciting. I like making stuff that way. It's an incredible well. I mean One episode in. it thank you. That means the world than you foraking take. just show you it think you person between who' seen it. so thank you. Oh wow, that means a lot. Well, I mean know so much you've given to us to enjoy and to As you say, hopefully provoke thought and provoke change, but even if it doesn't, it's still got to be done. Yeah. Yes, it does. Russell T. Davies, thank you. Thank you. I love this. Thank you very much This has been a Global Player original production