Future Projects and Artistic Vision

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The Game Maker's notebook is presented by the Academy of Interactive Arts and Sciences A member driven organization dedicated to the recognition and advancement of interactive entertainment You're an egore Welcome to Gamemaker's notebook I'm so excited to talk to you guys today about your wonderful new game replaced Um, I love this game I feel like you made this game spepecifically for me and only me. I've been following it since the announce And eagerly been awaiting playing it and it did not disappoint Um so much to talk about with you guys today, just so Im excited that you're here. welcome Thanks for having us the every res ours So you guys are Cofounders of Sadcat Studios. Um Can you give us and our listeners Just a brief little history of how the studio came to be Yeah, I think so U The studio came to be as a passion project for doing normal games and not the stuff we've been doing at our regular jobs So u Me myself, I was doing mobile games prior to that and Eager have been just doing reggular IT U, which, uh sounds a little bit of even more boring, but mobile games I think are Oh Definitely not a roller coaster of entertainment please for me U and we wanted to jump on an opportunity to make a studio and make a game that we would love to play ourselves And we We love to play games at least well we did, this I did prior to seven years of this development I still love video games. I just don't play them as much but anyway. Um And yeah, that's basically how it started. We got a little bit of investment and we started the the project, which have been M different at the time we started and much more scope with a much more teine. and just been pushing forward Rout the seenty getar mark to make it into something that it has become un release So I think that basics of how it was conceived Yeah, and obviously, get into it in a little bit, but a lot of W events played into the kind of development of the game and Um, specifically war train U, which u We've heard a lot about in game development the past couple of years a lot of L studios and game development being affected by that. U That's definitely a huge part of the story Um So I would just to jump in here, this is something that I always like to and want to like emphasize is that Even though like war in Ukraine, like Russian aggression towards Ukraine is definitely like a factor in our development. We are by no means the victim of this war, victims of this war. We come from Belarus, which is by like unfortunate case it's like in between all all that And it just made like the region too unstable and very like and friendly for business of our kind So that's why we had to move. but like because we don't want like to say that, oh, we are as much victims as Ukrainian people, We are not U so just to put it there Oh yeah Good snow Um, big factor, nonetheless having to deal with during the development of a game, especially game like this must have been just extremely hard. so Glad what was Yes, it was definitely a very big tell in the business side of things because of the overall, as you've said, un stability in the region. But No, As hard as this have been, I think one of the One of the u One of the things that we at least kind of like had had an opportunity to was a little bit of time to Reflecting the development and makes some adjustments to the game and to the process itself. So I think like Even though the events are definitely So just mildly put it put in it unfortunate was a very weak word for that I should say that it defefinitely couldn't have been any other way basically. It's just how life is And we tried to make the best of like any circumstance that We can that we can get so Um more power to you guys because Um doesn't seem to have the amazing output of of replaced U As I said, I love this game the u incredible. graphics and the and the two point five D world Like I said, I felt like it was made for me the the Definitely the type of story that I love u to jump into and the central conceit is really interesting. Um, in terms of An AI inhabiting a human. I love that and also Oddly u eerily timely commentary on on AI and humanity So that's an interesting thing Um, And I really love the design U implementation of combat system. It's really fun. really unique and Lots of unique twists that really held my interest and made the combat encounters really fun So for our listeners who maybe don't know what replaced is, can you guys overview of of the game U Pitch so u our listeners can understand the journey that Luckily we don't have like this pressure of like, you know, inessent pech. So I I can be a whatever I like We're invested Yeah. so basically replaced on the surface level is a cinematic platformer which With its roots kind of gets into the classics of the nineties like Fashback An World, but gives a modern spin on that. Because like it or not, today it's pretty difficult to play those games as they were just because well, for various reasons more than like people's attention span or whatever. but yeah Unfortunately today, such gamees do not work as good, but L aplace Does that plus it incorporates elements of more modern games that we like. Do love like Uncharted and Batman Arken series Uh because When we started the development, we thought to ourselves What can be like enhance what can be improved because like Bare bone, cinematicform platforming formula He kind of too expensive because you have to provide a lot of content for like a gameplay that requires it to go from point A to point B without like much of gameplay system. So I would say that in a nutshell, Repplace is a cinematic platformer with modern like as you we might be like breaking about with beautiful visuals And u gameplay which is based on Ban Arkin series and sort of like a more of it cinematic platformers within three D space like uncharted or something like that. Awesome. Yeah, that completely Great explanation in my opinion U So let's Let's dig into Why you may replace like How did that start? Like what was the seed and the origin of You know, hey, let's This this thing a reality. I mean Obviously there's all these influences Um games Films Um, I can I can pick out a ton of them Obviously Another world, Prince of Persia, stuff like that Blade Runner, system shock TheyX wait wait, you will just name all of them and we won't have anything to speak about. So no. I'm just saying like these are things these are things that I see and they were very like pressent for me because U Those are also my favorite things. So like I really felt like at home, in this game and this world and the story you're trying to tell. And I'm really uh interested to hear you know, What was the genesis of this thing Well, I think the genesis of this thing was Eager telling me that, o, fully three D game is too expensive to develop Yeah kind A littleittle did we littleittle did we know about like expenses at the time, which I think definitely speaks volumes about how Uh how u how how inexperienced and developers we were when we started. And u How much more do we do know about it producing u games, especially like high production value games. right now because replace is by no means an an expensive game And it's first and foremost, very high production value project which was one of the kind of core goals we've been striving for with it. But I think in a nutshell, we after we kind of like Um or excluded the idea of making a fully three D game at the time We thought that like put what can we do with like limited resources? and What art style should we pick And I think at the time was Bch fllood was like very popular thing. It still is But I think it was like the prime Prime time of pixel art at at the moment and we U and we were thinking about u And we were thinking about like how to best apply it And at the time, we were thinking less thinking less about the actual mechanics first and foremost, I think we were thinking more about stories Uh, and u, the story that the concept that we wanted to explore is basically the AI and humanity and how can we explore that in a an interesting fashion and that kind of like reverse notion of your AI experiencing the human u condition through being basically put into this position was born. And after that we started like developing the story H the gameplay. like followed suit and have been and have been reimagined a couple of times or to become for the game to become more exciting basically, more I have a more wider appeal and I think It just be basically a better game h in on honesty our first kind of like prototypes of It was not a very interesting game. It was basically more of a walk and simim at the time, more of an adventure game U and it it Iterationally, it may become more of a action adventure blockbuster kind of thing So u There is that, but without diving into lake andcrete like names, gavees them movies and so on U I think it's obvious that a lot of inspiration have been taken from movies and games of different genres. and some some very classic like Blade Runner obviously some a little bit more unique and niche U like u we like to mention that go to game Hercules for ES one A We've probablyready mentioned that. I saw you mentioned I mentioned that a lot because it's one of the kind of like One of the things that is quite obscure to remember actually, but it was Basically something like this, it was two point five D And they had Pixel ar, but you can say it had Pixel ar because of the low resolution sprice they reserted it to something like this but it had three D environments and that is a very interesting coincidence that I had I had that in my childhood and I remember that Um is so Um Yeah, that's there is a lot of a lot of different inspirations. And as the Vager have said, like our favorite games, obviously have been a very big driving force behind the development to try and implement those features that we love from those games into this kind of like different perspective of two point five D Uh game. M But I think I think ultimately, obviously the game have been A very big the game has like a very profound cinematic in a cleaning direction. So movies played very, very they grow in that So Yeah, I think I think u So like one feeling I had when I was playing the game especially in the beginning was this Warm comforting glow of nostalgia of how I remember when I played Um in other world games like that like just really Um It was a really like wrong comforting feeling of Good good quality things. past set in this new Um firstirst of all, visualized unbelievably like there are a lot of Um two point five D games and things out there, but This one takes the cake in terms of like modern Um visuals and how that expresses the cinematic Uh kind of style that you're talking about I just really, really thought that it was really well done and A lot of games or movies or TV or whatever Um are really bad. at not they're really That's not the way I' meant to say that. They wear their influences on their sleeves in a really obvious way think that was case here. I thought your're the way you' influences seeped into what you made and the end result were subtle and interesting. And I really loved it Um And sometimes there are surface level stuff because like I would say that we are really tired of saying stuff like Blade Runner yes, of course, but I would say that more than the original movie, the twenty forty nine was like the bigger inspiration for us. And at the same time, there was like this kind of low budget indie, I don't know whether it's indndie movie, but' low budget movie from Australia called Upgrade which basically also explores a theme of AI in a human body, but in a different manner. and it was the movie that actually quite heavily inspired replaced combat choreography because of the like fashion that D Comat like is explorting this movie where The human is moving like in a kind of unnatural non human way beyond human bodies's abilities U So this was kind of also dission and then they were like, u not small inspiration, but like more of a subatleas. For example, like Ya is a Maniac if we're talking about inside by plated I I think Eur has like something like fifty hours on steam or somewhere else on the Xbox. with the inside if even if it's like a three hour game But it's like it's like a perfect video game Bible for gameplay situations and like like from like moment to moment gameplay I wish I would say that it's not the like game, it's it's In my book, it's a perfect cinematic platformer. hands down and that that is basically ot even like a playbook, but it's pushing the cinematic platforming to its absolute limit. because pushing it even further would make it would probably make it not a cinematic platformer anymore. It will become an arcade platformer because it will require to lose the chains of cinematic nature to bring in more gameplay elements And sometimes sometimes there are influences that people imagine to themselves. like I cannot count how many times I've seen like that our game looks like Katana zero, which I can'tget that it's also pixel art, but it's like for from our perspective, like it's in another universe because it's like I enjoyed the game very much. I really like it on the. It' just that it's a totally different game. It's about like this super past hotline in Miami stuff like gameplay and just like connecting the dots that all pixed out, pixed labeled the same But for terror reason, like people sometimes like make this analogy Yeah, I think it's weird because I don't actually consider this game a pixel art game I know I know it kind of is, but that just kind of stopped being a thing for me like five seconds into it. It's just like beautiful g And when I go go back to my notes, like I'm I have a ton of notes like T me knows when I I'm looking at my notes for the art style right now and I wrote down This game is incredible. It combines handand drawn frame by frame pixel animation, stylized three D environments modern lighting inccredible depth of field inssanely cinematic visual effects incredible camera composition, layered foreground and background spaces You guys completely over deellivered there in a way that It was so un sorry No, no, no. It's great because like One of the things I appreciate about the game is that There are so many moments where First of all, I hate Cutcenes. I hate them and the way you guys cut sccenes was beautiful because it's in the game You're not being pulled out of it, right You're you're taking inspiration and And u implementation from Half Life It's not. Yeah that isn't it That's an interesting thing because I think Uh Even though like me and Niger really like house lifeife and we play a lot of house lifees even now U I think it was more akin to like the twenty eighteen gotot a war and that the guard because we u The the decision to make like everything kind of seamless was not just for flex because to be honest, like making cutscenes in a regular fashion where you have camera cuts and all that is much easier and it allows for much more creative U camera compositions and u more more cinematic lighting to be present because you compose every frame separately You don't have this super like real time continuity to it U But for us, the decision to make everything kind of like U this handheld effect so to say was that You are the idea was that you are living through characters's eyes and he experiences this world like from the beginning of the game to an end. as like a one in a like one shot at his life. So the continuous kind of like camera transition into cutscene and out of cuts scenes was made so that we We kind of identify with this notion that he kind of like lives this life through throughout this game basically even though it's pretty pretty short U in terms of time, the real time, it's like ten hours Um It was crucial for me to have this effect present. so we don't disconnect with the character at any time rather than when he kind loses consciousness And that's that's totally That totally comes across.'s it's really It's really cool and really interesting. Like I said, but at the same time, this was like one of the biggest like pain in the butts. to deliver like these kind of cutscenes just because created so many restrictions of how we have to like create locations, how we have to combine gameplay systems with what's going on in the game like with what's going on in Simatas because we cannot have cuts that's like, you know the heroes was here and then he's there. No, the player has to like wal to this point and then it has to transition like in a like seamless way. And like looking back, yeah, we are we glad that we did this and that we prove that we can do this, but it was like super cost effective. it's like it's not even it's not even like it's not cost effective, I would say. it's just it's very hard to do that because it requires a lot of blocking and a lot of planning prior to doing anything that is gameplay or cutsing related at the same time because you have to plan out the gameplay space and the at the cutscene space And knowing that you can only have like the camera movement is super restricted. You only have like one hundred eighty degrees basically even less, maybe like ninety degrees of that camera space that you can move And very very in a couple of scenarios you have like this ninety degrees Thin U into like another axis Uh you have to design everything with that notion in mind. So when you get to the actual kind of like cutscene setup and the environment assembly, you need to nail and lock down this environment spot on. So your gameplay and you're cinematic looks good in both situations. So that's one of the toughest thing. It's not that they expensive, like it's more time consuming, I would say But it's more about just play I would say it's more Um it's more stress inducing than time consuming because you have to think about a lot of those things in the M the very, very beginning of the process and you have to follow through with all that till the final production ends on the on the cutscene. So everything is in place, everything is locked. everything looks good, like the composition makes sense Uh and the gameplay most of all makes sense after the cutscene has finished So I think I think that's I mean, that's That's like game development in a nutshell. you're handed a a bunch of cards that Um restrictive in some ways and that's where creativity and pation Um, kind of grow. like, you know, when you have We have limitations and boundaries that you can't go beyond for whatever reason That's when when most of the best creative decisions happen anyway. So I started this part of the conversation by saying I hate cutscenes. But I never got to say, but I love yours They're just really good and it kept me, it kept me engaged And one of the other things that I loved about game and the camera stuff is that You guys took so many opportunities just to like Han out and show us the beauty of your game pointoints where It was just like, oh, let's appreciate how Unbelievably Cool. this world and this environment is And part of the research that I do for these podcasts is I go and read comments and reviews And I was really surprised at U people online saying That was annoying to them. because Every video game does this Literally, have you ever played uncharted people? like There is so much environment appreciation going on in those games and I just love the fact that you guys didid that because mostost kind of games of this style Um timeime. do that and And your environment is a huge character in this game. and really, really doing those moments where you know, you kind of stop the character and pan out and like you know, look, it's it was really beautiful. I really, really appreciated the moment to that all in because it didn't take me out either. It was like It drew me deeper into the experience I think Yeah I should just say one quick comment that I think that's why we we are I think look me personally We willll describe this game as divisive because People hate those things. likeike they hate when we kind of like U prolong the exposition, for instance And some people love it. and There is no kind of like in between with that from what I've seen I think that's because we are We are still kind of like a two D S sc or game and the minds of some of the audience and they are used to those games being kind of like more fast paced U more platforming gameplay focused and like at all times So I think the we're just kind like expecting it to be like that when in actuality it's knock. like it's a cinematic platformer first and foremost and cinematic platformers require the setup. They require the room to breathe. They require the room for camera to move And they require all that to be like the cinematic platformer, like the genre first and foremost. so U I really understand where those people come from U even though like I would I would love for them to love the game as well But the notion that this game is is is divisive in that regard, I think speaks to the volume that we created something a little bit different because when you create something that is well basic, I think you get a little bit of a No Or maybe some that's a basic regular uh, you would get something like u a little bit of uh of a of a smoother kind of like U smoother li backack Yeah And here we have like this either really so magnificent. this game is awesome, like ten out of ten or o this game is boring. it sucks like two out of two out of ten like you four out of ten And I think we've learned, I think we've learned from making games You know, especially the last, let's just call it twenty years is that there is a large group of game developers. who want to make slow meandering beautiful things with like you know, very little interactivity and appreciating the environments like I wish every Great looking game came with just a walk through the world mode where I don't have to do anything. I can just walk around and look at stuff and Not everyone's built like that, right? that's that's a minority probably people and You see time and time again where games that kind of approach that mindset dinged and they become divisive and they They are like You know in some cases, like review Bond because it's like, you know Where's all the stuff Where do I get to do this stuff? And it's like I feel that there's like a very U low threshold for people really appreciating artistry The world that we create game developers There's no way that you guys should get dinged that, you know for this just being like Look how great this is. I mean, it's a visual medium That's part of the deal and you guys created somethingomething incredibly beautiful. and unique And I was just really both surprised and not surprised when U I saw those comments online because Nobody says that about uncharted or the last of us. I mean, I guess I'm not the u I'm not picking on Naughty dog is Well, if you want to find like a divisive game, this is the last of pass But lost of uspar two So and I' on the fans of people like who actually loves the game. And I would say that this is like a duality of a man basically referring to the temo. We had like lots of comments where they asked for oh, add sprint button so we can move faster. And I was like, well, I understand where where it comes from, okay And but then we found like a bunch of comments who were like Ad a walk button, I want to like walk even slower to as you said, like experience the environment in a more cinematic fashion. So that for example, if like they go through a hub location in our game, they can just not run, but like walk as probably the character would actually do if it wasn't a game like in this environment And Sometimes the game manages to please everybody, but I don't think that even it even manages to please everybody. I think it's about like getting interacted to your audience. So some games are better at this than the others. someome games like at the very beginning They like have a very good Uh like presentation where they show that what exactly the game is and they convey in a very like understandable fashion what the game is about And then when the game releases they like have' like one to one m match almost with their like core audience and that's when you get a game that gets like a nine point five or ten on steam or whatever. I think that this is like one of our like maybe missteps during the development where we maybe didn't con wait like very like thoroughly And that's why we got like who got frustrated, that they didn't get what expected. So maybe we just And u We've got our target audience, but we also like got somebody else from the side who is like not into these kind of games but he They got like U traked. buying the game even though it's not what they expect it to be I think for your comment about Charted and the last of us Uh is is that U it's Those things are basically just perceived differently with three D. Like when the character, when you can move in a three three three hundred and sixty degrees it gives more agency to you in terms of like where you can explore, where you can go And with two D two point five D, our only kind of like directions are Well, you can you can go in three hundred degrees just now there axes, but Bically you are mostly either either moving left or right So especially with those kind of like cinematic games. And the notion that you are more limited in the ways to control your character and explore the environment. I think that speaks to the volume that some people find it more frustrating for them to be be locked into this piece exposition kind of thing where they don't have enough opportunity maybe to explore this set piece. And that's kind of another another thing which u which I think is is no way there is no way to remedy it other than U, other than doing like a game where you can. walk in all dimensions, which is An another genre basically. so I would alter I would I would counter and say that u you know When you can walk around and look at every pixel on the screen and walk up to it and look close and inspect it and zoom in, like You're not leaving Hardly anything to the imagination there, But when when you're when you're looking at and you're experiencing the game that you made in the style like that. you're Part of it is you creating what you're seeing and what you think is happening there and filling in the blanks because you have the opportunity to do that based on how you're presenting the world and the story You know walking around in the train station You get vibe and the feeling and it's communicated appropriately, but like I'm also filling in what I think is happening there and I'm I'm thinking about background characters and they're the little stories and the side quests and stuff that you have to do. and it's like It's almost engaging me more. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with making, you know fully three D game. What I'm saying is that I think you're actually giving the player more Um more opportunity to fill out the world and the narrative And I think that That's a really important Ove creative pursuit is like overver communicating. under communicating or finding the spot where You know, you're letting the player be part of the creative process as well. And I think those Those things are really interestnteresting because I'm I'm having an experience that's to me. where someone else playing the game is going to going to see that differently. I agree with you on this. I just think that there are like two points to that. First of like I think this is why actually pixel art is kind of timeless Because this is like the art style that allows for, as you said, like imagination. for you to fill the gaps like for example, with all the characters that you see like and then we see people drawing like fine arts and everybody like giving like a character like a different face because like they don't see this face in the game because like it's like a pixels by by four pixels and it leaves room for imagination. And I also like agree that Sometimes restrictions they provide for a better experience because I know that there is like I don't know whether it's a vocal minority or not, but basically people or some players who are like Oh, you cannot swim in mafia in the latest Mafia game and I'm like what you're not supposed to swim there. The fact that you can swim there doesn't make it a better game. Like if you're not supposed to, why should you? And also like If you're talking for example about fors Horizon games, my favorite force Horizon game is the very first one, the one that where you actually have like restrictions. don' you don't have an ability to go outside of like specific spots and this leaves you room for imagination. what is going on there, like what is the world because you cannot see it in whole You are always like restricted to go like everywhere. while like later games, they, as you said don't give you any room, you just for imagination. You just go you can go anywhere And if they like artists did a great job then it will be good if sometimes they use like Of course, on a game such scale, you have to use like procedural stuff. So sometimes it get kind of boring. But when you have like those like background so where you cannot reach but you cann only like imagine what is happening there sometometimes I think it's like it's like a book where you can actually like for herself What is happen there? I guess that's what I was trying to say. I really appreciate that about The game Um Okay, there's a ton of stuff I want to talk about in regards to combat and platforming beforefore we talk about that I just really wanted to really quick Um talk about did the way AI has exploded in the world the real world today. Um Did that influence the story and the conceit along the way Not at all U me myself, I'm a very vocal AI hater Oh E though I think AI can be a really useful thing at some point maybe in the production of media definitely not like as a replacement for artists because it's just bizarre Yeah and answering your question, we obviously we were really interested in where this like the whole thing is going and how it evolves and how it evolves in the in our own eyes and how I for instance I have never imagined myself to be kind of like anti progress U but u It have not did not have any dent on the story because By the time this whole thing started happening, the story was pretty much locked in. first it's basically the first thing. And the second thing is that I think Gays story is kind of like especially any like science fiction stories, like a little bit of was going to happen and maybe We had predicted a little bit of that thing happening in one way or another even though like not very directly Oh maybe not But u It just so happened that this thing this this particular thing caught on. And we were just interested and how it develops as kind of like comparing it to what we what kind of story we are telling Yeah, we're not trying to be like opportunistic here because some people like were telling us that o, like aI in a human head. Well, they ripped off cyberpun twenty seventy seven And we were like, well, we started in twenty eighteen and I don't actually remember whether at this point it was actually specified that like Johnny Silverhand is actually in protagonist head in Cyberpunp. So yeah We never try to be like in the trend. It's just that Well, for some particular reason, the trend caught up with us Yeah, I mean Nothing Nothing is truly original anymore. It's it's like, you know, you want to tell a story like that. Great story U I really want to talk about Um This reallyally cool. combat system that you guys have in the game And my understanding is that The game deevelopment And the idea of the game started without this combat system and it was it came later Um, Also, divisive thing online around your game combat system I think it's wonderful. I love the idea of U cllose quarter melee combat and parrying and dodging. Um And like I love that The gun is a reward using those systems and having those type of fights Um There's so many cool things in here and I feel like your whole combat system is very well designed Um and super fun Talk to me about how this came together and And it was clearly important to For example, the gun a reward and a cool Um f feature that wasn't like something you relied on and that completely in my opinion, dictated how played the those combat encounters and how I fought enemies. Um really interested to hear how this came about and what was important to you guys when you were designing and implementing it to create this really unique system that somehow likeike combines super old school style gameplay with like the wonderful kind of U moving around and chaining and increasing like of the of the batman games that we've experienced in the past ten years. It's any right, I think like initially we going we are going back to like twenty nineteen. when we had like our our first demo of the game, which we took to Tokyo game show, I think at this point on the floor And at this point, the game was like we had like this five to ten minutes demo where basically it's kind of I would say In a way, it mirrors our second level in the game where you wake up in the pit. and basically It's kind of this segment, but done differently U and it was mostly B was like If ha en likeed this horror mostost vibe, I would say. and you were kind of, I would say It was more akin to like those old games like Fashback and another world where we had like very specific spots where you could do stuff. There is like a small puzzle here. There is like a platforming element there, but it's like very, very, very restrictive And when we got back, we like from Tokyo, we thought to ourselves that We spend so much time preaping this like five minute demo which it's not scalable. We cannot like scale it to the whole game because If everything that if all of what player are doing is theyre just woralking from left to the right Then like we will need like ages and ages and ages to like provide the content that it will suffice for such kind of experience. So we were thinking like Okay, how we can life expand upon all this And that's where I think it's I think we can come up with very much much more simpler Range combat and cinematic platformers fucking sucks And that's it Uh likeash I know like flashback to the legendary game by no means I'm not dising it, but it's it's it's it's combat is very up to modern standards and we understood that it's We can squeeze out a whole game out of like just shooting U even with rolling, it would get old very, very quickly A. And we basically we quickly came to a realization that T two D games lean towards Malley combat. Uh But The story had but we had a very ground story. We couldn't make player kind of like arirjuggling enemies Even though it's kind of fun, it's obviously kind of like a cool rewarding mechanic to be able to do that It doesn't It doesn't really stack with what we're telling So what is we thought that go out and think about like what is thing that is fun But grounded in the beat ' them up space and we saw that of Batman, it kind of like is really is a real cool combat system. we can we make something like this into and to to de gain and it was quite a challenge. u designing that around the notion that we had to come up with a reason why and like why are I just shooting everyone becausecause the gun was always a plot device. And we needed that to to kind of like be the plot device the whole time. I couldn't write it out of the story. So We came up with different ways of playing around it So the gun is still your plot device But you cant always shoot everyone U, so we experimented a lot with like different takes and how the compress should feel and how it should play and eventually we'll landed in one of our kind of like one of our demos that kind of like felt like that this is good. this is this feels right feels like something gives me the vibes of the Arkham combat U but it's not really And we are luckily we're not the only ones who felt that and I think that thing that Eager is talking about, the systematic approach It's one of the first kind of like true systems that were born. in the game. U that kind like is scalable that is balanceable And that I think that was one of the first our true Um, Our first true systematic Good type of approach that we came to realize and like how the games should be made U if you want to do like a serious game that kind of like is not five minutes long Yeah. and that after that, it informed all the other things that we came to start iterating upon But Oh the combat as and like the the initial redesign of the platforming just came from the notion that like It sucked. like it was okay. It was cool for like for Five to ten minutes what we had initially But everybody was like all the publishers was asking us one simple question, Can you multiply that to be enjoyable for like five, six plus hours And we I'm here to tell all those publishers that the answer is yes. They did a no I mean, no, like I'm talking about the super original thing like the original thing before that And that we couldn't do. L we could have, but it would suck I'm sure of that. It would get old very, very quickly and We we took every u every kind of like critique what we had with the initial demo to the drawing board and said like, okay, like we can't go around the fact that something is not clicking with people somethingomet they' either not sure of or We are probably not not making the right decision here And we started iterating upon everything And that basically allowed us to come to what the game is like became A that Um consistently throughout the board U and I think that's it was a really great exercise and growing as a game development team and understanding like what player requires what peoplee who do the decisions about like putting money into a project flyer and balancing that out with your kind of like creative intent And that, I think is how the combat was born and everything around that u notion of a grounded Uh semi, I wouldn't say realistic but semi realistic grounded. nature of the game was building around that to be enjoyable U but not over to top and to like just it on on top of this is that Even though like we came up with this combat system, it also was one of the pain or stress points for the game, just because when we came up with the formula, the problem was that Well Ean works in threety for a reason When you squeeze it like into D addditional challenges appear where like in Batman, you're constantly surrounded by fifty dudes or something like that, where basically, yes, those dudes are there, but like in the real gameplay, actually only like one, two, maximum three of them are attacking you at the point. But the illusion is there. Like when you're into this space You can only hit to the left or to the right. And like this way also why you were said that like ranged mechanics sucks in games because like in such games because Like you don't have like realability to like aim. So that's why we had also to limit the gun And another thing is that Batman actually had so it's sort of like two D game and unfortunately it wasn't like really good. becausecause at this point, they didn't manage to squeeze like their original mechanics into this space. And they actually like face same problems as we did that this mechanic like kind of requires a lot of like tuning and additional work to make it work into D because otherwise, it just becomes stale very fast because you understand that there is like only an enemy to the left or to the right there is like not so much variety to it. so additional like it it's like a solution for one problem and then it creates another problem and then it creates another problem where our game has like like even though our game is considered pick slart, like All the objects in the game are three D aside from like characters. And this is one of the most time consuming things in the game, like the clips for the characters It doesn't matter whether it's main character or like one of the enemies. It's like the same amount of work most of the time Well, there are some exceptions if this price are bigger, but Yeah When we were releasing now a demo on Steam U One of the comments that got me like a bit nervous was that it's cool. the combat is cool, but I hope that they will have more of the finishers Like Sooler alert, we did not have more than that just because every finisher like you like I I I understand that the player doesn't have to care about this because they consume the project and they pay for it. and it's like our problem to resolve. Like the thing that I would like to for some people who are interested to understand is that Every light of those finishers, it's like a synchronized animation between like protagonist and the enemy. So whenever you do like this onene hundredland frame animation. You have to multiply it by like three or six Because like every like Yeah every enemy aside from tanks are finishable. So we had to multiply it by S for every enemy type. Yeah, and it's basically like several hundreds of frames for one just one finisher. and well talk about scalability, it's not scalability at all. So yeah. Yeah, we tried our best here. like the it had more I planned, but we understood that it's it'ss it's just insane. We can't do that. We we should KR resources to something else, like not something else, but more important things because even though the the whole combat system was based on like spectacle. It's not based on difficulty even though we had problems with difficulty initially because we have been playing the game for so long that we started to think that it became right too easy when in reality, it wasn't and we shouldn't have been like really worried about that because at the end of the day, it was all about spectacle and enjoyment rather than kind of like hardcore U gameplay like souls like thing It was always now just the game in the hard is a hard I know, I know and that's that's that's our one of our mistakes that we that we are then fixing and we still will address that in the future that by the end of the game it becomes super hard And we didn't want it we didn't want that. We wanted it to be enjoyable from start to finish And we at that point, like in the end of the game, we thought we have been playing it with our eyes closed basically thought that we should add more difficulty to the end of the game because it's the end of the game But we quickly realized upon release that it doesn't really add anything other than players frustration because many of people like like me, for instance, I'm more a casual player. I don't like U Souls Light games I don't like likeike I appreciate them for what they are, but I myself don't play them. Yeah, I don't like being punished when I play games I'm not aned Yes. and what we wanted to do is not like stray away from that and not overbalance things. And we we unfortunately No went into trap overbalancing for people to not chese the game And in actuality, we shouldn't have cared about that. You want to choose the game be my guess go for it. If you want to ruin your experience for thisself, like You can, you can roll in Batman for infinity like nobody is disallowing you that. So He will you we will do some other things that we plan to do. with the combat so it feels as we intended in the first place, just to be enjoyable KCS action peace that you go in, you kill everybody, you feel great about yourself You move on to the next thing in the game and that's it So ye, that does that's basically why We spend a lot of time like choreographing all the stuff with the furnishers and like the basic attacks and and the and the gun attacks So that it all looks like a spectacle. It's basically that And that's achieved, but it's it's also achieved through kind of perfect organism of the combat system. and Games I love. as designer myself, like Whenever I'm like, Damn I wish I did that goodood Like I know that's a good game. L likeike The the Baton that when used fills a meter so that you can use the gun in a special magnificent way why you can also lose that charge by dodging too much or staying idle That whole system working together is incredible It's so fun I really, really got into it the idea of of gun. being the thing that carries out these these kind of the finishers, right? and an occasional rangeed attack. like You're You're like rewarded for momentum in this in this scenario and I just thought it was reallyally wonderful how you guys choreographed all of that and with the inclusion of different kind of multiple enemy types, which by the way I think you guys have included my most hated video game enemy of all time. The dude was one like You know, the dudes with the knife things that they d every Like this this is actually one of our main like U how would I say battles, internal battles with our gain desire because u like diff difficulty curve was something that we were like very Um How was say like in Sprencew with, I would say and closer to release like there were more of those of of those enemies in the game. We like reduced their amount by like percent or something like that because those are like I'll bef. those are like the most un fun ones in the game just because You have to do specific actions to even try to get them And with you ar That's the beauty it's the beauty if you have met the pre required conditions, for example, you k ass of other enemies and then you have like a free shot to kill this like fast enemy like with one bullet But when you're like surrounded and you have like to Dodes dam. it can be frustrating. And this is like Vy like difficult and thin balance of like providing you enough enough with the easier enemies, those canonfold enemies that you can beat whatever you like. and then there are like those tougher enemies. So it's like the most difficult part and the problem is that it's a game playler can like do like player can end up in like in a very like unsatisfyied situation like the same combat for one player which like when great can like go horribly for another player just because like they use different tactics. So U Nice it If you don't play Batman the right way, you you You have You don't have the best experience because you're not using the systems designed and implemented to help you have the good experience. And I mean those enemies Those enemies Yeah, they suck, but it's super rewarding when you can take them down. And the fact of the matter is when you have four of those guys in a tank in one arena. and you're charging up The um The Huxley gun likeike you got to make a decision there. like, am I going to use this against the tank or am I going to takeake one of these guys out because they're so hard. I mean what you've What you've presented in the game with these systems and the encounters is like, truly beautiful. It's really cool. I think I think it it speaks a little bit to the notion that I heard from one of my friends that we made we developed a game for game developers I mean, that is a fair, that is a fair point That is a fair point I mean You got me definitely like so many things in this game, I'm like, oh man, I wish I did that. I wish I could do this. That's a good thing. It's the highest compliment, I think you can get from a game developer, in my opinion But and and I strongly urge you to not do any of those things because that's that's a pain in the ass. and I I I can back p the price. I've paid the price for that. belieelve me. I can bet my money that There will will not be A game like replaced in a while because it's just fucking crazy to try to replicate this thing like just content wise. It's crazy expensive and it's crazy risky. And I if I were like me not like if I were not me and some other developer I would just look at that and say, oh no or fuck this shit, I'm not I'm not trying to to do that for for making like a cinematic platform or something Yeah, but the chase of of the creative pursuit and your dream and what you want to do, like that's really what this is all about anyway. Like of course it's a product and you want people to love it and experience it and tell their friends about it and be successful, but The first success is Did I get to do what Did we get to do what we wanted to do? And that's That's rare. That's rare I would I would answer that with unfortunately we did And That's amazing. That is amazing That's a fresh perspective that you don't hear too often Well, it's it's it's just that as I've said, like But I think I think it's usually with the most of the things that kind of like move the u move the goal post and in some regard is that When you finish the development of that thing, you are just kind of like You don't want to do anything anymore. this is a podcast. You' squeeze out as lemon. Oh. Yeah, yeah Um I mean, I loved it. I loved the combat system and I had a good time with it. It was hard It was frustrating, but notot in a way where I like had to put it down. Also, I did play the game entirely on the Steam deeck Um you might as God as God intended. but ye yeah You gott to play this on a handheld. likeike it's just like That's the way. This was one of the other things that was kind of complicated because No When we were developing a game for whatever reason, like whenever you change a monitor where you play the game, the game instantly looks better. I hate looking to replac on my main monitor on which I work For whatever reason, like it's a good monitor. It's all that screen, but I don't like it. Whenever I switch to Steam deeck, I'm like, man, this looks good and whatever I tried to put it up on the big TV a couple times and No offense, but that just wasn't for me with the game. and then in my research when I went and looked at U reviews And videos, I'm like Man, this just looks totally different from the game I played because It's like You know, Im my face is right next to the screen and it's like suuper huge and and it looked amazing, but It wasn't like You know You gotase As you said when you're further, there is more room for your imagination and stuff. so yeah U deffinitely like Steam Deck is a good place to play replace it just that It's kind of the problem is with optimization and later downline with patches. we've also added a feature to disable letter boxes for people who would like that. And I will say that In my opinion If you're playing on a big screen, it's worth keeping them. If you're playing on Steam deeck, unfortunately, yeah, the screen is too small and basically it it makes sense to disable letter boxes there. It's just that Whenever you do that, you lose twenty percent of prameerate because like you have to render more pixels. And u Sometimes people ask for things that they don't not They don't think they want or it's sold how whatever it's called, but basically People for example, would like to disable like motion blur in some games and I'm like Guys this is like an artistic intent So basically it's there for a reason. If you disable it, for example, in thirty FPS games like Uncharted, if you disable a motion Bur there, it all becomes like choppy and kind of not pleasant to watch to look at In our game, for example, some people asking for Oh, let us disable film grain And we're like, no, this is part of the picture. We are not doing that because well, This is a part of our this equation. sometometimes we are We had to stand our ground Even though like for example, with the letter boxes we gave in just because yes, we understand that if people playing on the smaller screens, it makes sense It's your vision. You're the boss. All right. with the remaining time left, there's two other things I want to talk about. I mean, I could have talked about combat like forever. You guys did a great job on that. It's really cool Pravo loved it Um Let's talk about the Wingman and then we gott to talk about the music I love the weekend. So cool L, that just made me feel so warm and fuzzy and cool every time I had to use that and I loved it. talk about it Well, I was I was I was drawn to mention the wingman when you were talking about the design prescriptions because the wingin is something that is born out of necessity. out of restriction that is like we couldn't have done Realistically we wed, but we couldn't have done all the lore items like in a three D our realized way for it to be tactile Can you describe it for people who haven't played the game? Yeah. the Wing Man is basically your U in game device for reading lore and listening to pick upp music and looking through your current objectives and it is basically a blend of Game boy and Sonny Walkman So and it was boren out of that notion that we can do all those all those All those lore items in a three D way, it will just take like enormous amounts of time C. we still want to not have UI like we don't want digetic UI for that. How do we do that in a way that is true to the nature of the game and I came up with this I was I was watching an I video game nerd episode about the Game Boy camera and I saw that hey This shy camera is something that we like that is fits fits the bill And I just thought about what if he just scans it in a very in a very kind of like shitty way? But it's still kind of like a device that he holds in his hand every kind of like littleure item goes in in a very systematic way. can that we can catalog their and it will be much, much easier for us, but it will be a pretty fun thing for those people who not necessarily want to read the Lore. And they don't like those kind of like big box of text on a UI that cored the whole screen. And let's do it in a fun way and we did. Really cool And it was super fun picking up and listening to music Igor Great music in this game, Holy cow super great. Thank you for that. Yeah L there is also request for people from people to let us allow to people listen to music like everywhere in the game But this is also one of the things that real real life No because this way you can just ruin your experience. L replaces a systemematic platformer through and through And if you are to like enable any like sort of like music you picked up at any time You're just gonna rin the game for you and we don't wantna that. Can you talk about Uh, the influences Yeah, the music should creat Uh sure, like in terms of like non game influences, I would say that those are the ones that you are sitting in right now on his t shirt or hoody with his lining nnaails Uh, Gary Newman If you're going into it doesn't have like more simight it's the drum ship I would say that several pieces in the game were heavily inspired by just like For example, there is a theme in a game called Yoyo theme, well Miltyway, whatever it is called. and basically it's something that I've been just playing a lot of massF two And at one point, I was just listening in the background the music from the Galaxy map U I think I think that it was composed by Jack Wall, I think And basically, I'd been missing it for hours and I was like M, I want to have something like that in the game and I would just really have an inspired and I'm like Yeah, this is this is the thing I really like that And also, I think post release it was also U The music of Cyberpun seventy seven by Martin Tbovich and Pita Adamchuk. which are alsoso like come from Poland. Well we don't come from Poland, but we live here, but they are from Poland And this was also a heavy inspiration Uh and u Yeah, I would say that there is a lot of music that in a more of obscure ways influenced the game. For example, there was like this very, very old U game called you for afterftermath. It's it's sort of like a beingin off like or more of a like u Ced Czech Republic stake on the Xcom games, like early Xcom games And this game had like such a magnificent Where are you I would say it meancholic and Bril kind of soundtrack. I didn't like the depressic part in the replace. I want it all like in the replace. I always wanted to keep music Sad, but somewhat hopeful U so that like there is like some some sort of tomorrow to all of to this world So I would say that this was and The main sources of inspiration for it. I love u I love that you're wearing a year zero shirt while we're here talking about replaced uff Well I think I think for every interview your has like a different nine inchel shirt. It's not the on it's a coincidence. You just had shower and I had to pick one black shirt and that was it It worked. it worked. Um guys, this This was so fun talking to you about this. This game is for sure my Game of the year list for me personally. U I'm definitely going to play it again U, because I had such a good time with it and a lot of times when doing the research for this andm playing the game. I'm stopping and taking notes and things like that, but I'm definitely going to be playing againame. I'm definitely going to be recommending it to everyveryone. I know. I mean, I've already started doing that and You know, I just really appreciate you guys coming on and talking about it I love doing these episodes on games that really move me and You know, I said I've been following this one for a long time. So I really appreciate You guys actually making it coming and talking about it. reallyally great I hope it continues to be super successful you guys Thank you so much and thank you for having us. and I don't know whether we want to repeat this kind of experience again, but We will see I'm talking about game development and not about this podcast Wait I think I to be talking about this kind of game development, not the game development in general because it definitely making g not going to make any more games. That would be like No no, no, we we will. we will efinitely will. Do you have an idea of what's next couple of them Yeah. I would say that definitely we have something up our sleeves. It's just that whenever you develop a game for such a long time You just have ideas that you want to jump next to, but you have to finish the game first Yeah That's tough about about that I understand that completely. Will you guys continue to make games in the two point five D style I think maybe we might. It's just that After replace, we definitely need some ps from this just to like recharge our batteries and probably shift to something else, but you never know because Sometimes it's about art. sometimes it's about business perspectives And unfortunately, sometimes you need to choose between those in order to sustain the studio or whatever Because like There are lots of people who depend on us in terms of like the development and Sometimes the decisions come from like a business perspective, not an artistic one. Repplaced was like one hundred percent like Artistic choice from the beginning to the very end So we just hope that we are successful enough that we can Contue doing it like in an artistic way, not business one Well, I hope so too because you guys are definitely a unique and interesting voice in the game development scene. And if you're listening to this podcast and you haven't played replaced must play it. game is Super fun. It's super beautiful. It tells a great story It's very current and incredibly creative. So thanks a lot, guys. Re appreciate it B to luck and Thank you very much for enjoying the game and having us obvist Come back for the next one Thank you for joining us for the Game Makers nototebook. For more information on the Academy of Interactive Arts and Sciences, our podcasts and our other initiatives, please visit www. interactive. orgot