Future Plans and Post Launch Support

Hey everyone, it's Kal Penn. I'm inviting you to join the best Sounding book Club you've ever heard with my podcast, Earsay, the Audible and I Heart Audiobook Club. Every episode, I nerd out with amazing guests and dive into the best new audiobooks available on Audible. It's the book Cub for your ears Listen to EarsSay, the Audible and I Heart Audioobook Club On the Irhheart Radio apppp or wherever you get your podcasts episode is supportpped by Exola How do you turn global reach into global revenue If you're a game developer hoping to take your game to players everywhere, including regions where credit cards aren't the norm, with exolar payments Their solution has opened the door for thousands of partners with over a thousand local payment methods, from mobile money to digital wallets. result Plers worldwide can finally pay the way they prefer With all the things to reach your players around the globe, can now focus on building games instead of payment infrastructure, whether you're going global or optimizing checkout, Exola payments handles the complexity Froad protection, taxes, compliance. they've got all the things covered Ready to reach more players? Learn more at XSO L L A. pro slash A O I A A S Hello everyone. I'm Trent Custers, co founder and studio director at League of Geeks And you're listening to the Gameemaker's notebook Today I'm chatting with my pals, Tyler Gle and Edmund McMillan, creators of Eugenics, they smash Indie hit that's just come out this February, you breed cats and then send them on adventures to battle and There's a bunch ofuff that happens in this game. Anyway, we have a blast We obviously start the podcast off as we usually do, talking about their early childhoods, playing games, their first memories, stuff like that. We talk about how they both came up through the golden age of Flash and Xbox Alive They' various projects and early collaboration. They've been working together for well over ten years U Creating from their own personal experiences as well as another topic. Edmund especially talks about this for a little bit there some really sweet moments about lessons they've learned including lessons learned from previous games around self publishing and marketing and things that they wish they could have done better. And then of course, we get ont to new Genics. their new title that we're here to talk about, the inspirations, the prototypes The adventures, the misadventures, including stuff like putting the team together. We do a lot of chatter about the team and you know, the makeup of this brilliant game because it's not the two of them. And of course the absolutely singular and incredible soundtrack that this game has, which is, as I say on the podcast kind of had me thinking, what is happening in my ears as I'm playing this game? Just incredible stuff Then we wrap up the episode with a little chatter about process, whether that be creative, tech and more. And's you know, this is one of those projects that although it was like six years long The guys say it went super smooth, so we dig into why that was And then course, we chat a little bit about what's next for the team and me Janks So without further ado Here's Tyler and Edmund to talk about eugenics Welcome to Game Maker's Notbook, a podcast featuring a series of in depth one on one conversations between game makers providing a thoughtful, intimate perspective on the business and craft of interactive entertainment. The Game Maker's notebook is presented by the Academy of Interactive Arts and Sciences a member driven organization dedicated to the recognition and advancement of interactive entertainment Edmund, Tyler, thank you so much for joining us here today Thanks for having us L Re Iith just Beautifully executed. a wonderfully wispy voice. I It's kind of like lulling us into a false sense of security for the rest of the podcast, which I'm sure we'll be as bombastic as ever with the three of us here. start There'll be a lot of screaming. Well there'll be get ready for this. D G. Love it. Now're now we're there. U So you know, like it's this podcast, where we're not trying to change it up at all and folks this time around. We're going to start right where we usually do for every episode U Let's but there's two of you here. So I think, you know, Tyler we'll start with you What's your earliest memory of a video game? And I mean the one that kind of like set something alight in your brain that kind of made them something special for you or maybe led you down this dark path we're all on Yeah. I'm pretty sure that it was, u When I was probably like two or three years old Proably when I remember playing video games I mean I've probably played them a bit before then, but that's, you know, when you start forming memories and we had a. We had a Sega Genesis. So it was like the original like Sonic games and then some other like A. Weird Genesis games that I'm pretty sure my dad probably bought at the store based off the box art only U There's there were a lot of uh pretty bad games on that on that system And I played them a lot U opion in particular or was it just this, I mean, you're like you like you say' quite young, but did you have you ever walked into like a porn store or something and being like, oh my God, that's that game from thirty years ago that I, you know, Yeah, I've looked up some of them on emulator and checked them out in the There was one in particular that I remember that was You know, at the time, I didn't realize that it was just a like contra rip off Allright Midnight resistance I just thought it was a game where you run from left to right and shoot things I and then And when I was older, I'm like, oh Cra is the actual game and this game was just somebody ripping it off. Had a crazy soundtrack though And so you're playing on Siga Genesis. wasas it like? Were there wasas there PC gaming in your household as well? orr was it like a whole family affair? You said your dad was bringing games home? Like what was kind kind of the video game vibe in the household? Yeah, well, we were a MC family, so we didn't have PC games.. But Uh, I do remember like You had to plug in the console to like the coax cable on the TV. Like there was set upp for that. It wasn't just always hooked up to the TV. when we wanted to play video games, we had that I had to ask my my dad to plug in the console. because it was not just like a button and playing it, you had to like unscrew like the cable for the TV and screw it into like the for the console. which then also had to go back into the TV It was a whole ordeal notot something that they wanted. for your four year old to do. And they probably didn't want to hooked up all the time so and just play video games all the time anyway Yeah, I remember my cousin was born like seven days ahead of me, which of course she always lauded over me, but the big thing in the family was that from basically one and a half years old she could open medicine bottles J like some like passive skill that she inherited from a past life or something. It was always And I couldn't open them until I was like twenty three or something like that I could just imagine little Tyler behind the trying to like screw off these these cables, get them set up again What about you, Ed? was what was your earliest memory of a video game that sort of set something off in your brain I'm ten years older than Tyler, so I go back I go back, the first video game I ever played was a handheld game that my dad had which was I think it wass called football And it was a stadium. It was like it's handheld with a I think like a D pad or something on it And all it was was there was a group of dots on one side And then you And you're supposed to get to the other side and it was supposed to be football. right. And you just would American people kind of game. likeike a little electronic handheld game. Yeah, right. Yeah. That was the first one I ever played. Um, and then I got I got an Atari out I was always like threeree years behind everybody with consoles and stuff So I got an Aari w Nintendo And yes was coming out But I got a show it of games. That was the cool thing. It was like, well, you could get if you were late to the game, you could get a ton of games though. Instead of just like a new one new console in one game So I had a bunch of, I remember jungle hunt And u Hero and Pac Man and the, you know, the weird versions of Pac Man and Donkey Kong And u those sort of games I played the hell out of those when I was really little. I was probably like six seven I love how in the early days of those video games, like especially the Atari era Games just like had archetypal names, like adventure and herero and It's just like everything was up for the taking in those early days Did you have a did you have like a kind of gaming family? oras it a kind of a gaming household or Wereas he just gu No? A know know It was it was me begging and pleading and saying, look at all the other kids who have these things. I want these things too And getting handy dents for my cousins who had money and and borrowing games from friends and stuff like that. But I was the kid who would be like I would be your friend if you had Castlevania and an NES. I'll go and hang out with you until I've gotten my fill and then I won't That was me. There's like literally I could draw a map, like a top down map of my like childhood neighborhood and like just like locate games at different kids' houses on that map of where I experience like James Pond or Batman on the NES or the Legend of Zelda or whatever There's a lot of rich people in Santa Cruz and so like literally growing up when When NES was at its peak, every On my street, every everyone hadn an NES but me and no one's going to let you borrow it. everyveryone's busy with it. And I did break into it was Alma's house Tyler Alma So it's our it's our realitter Um u kinda sorta But She lived next door to me when I was really little and I went to school with her son and we would play in the ass all the time. And I remember He got Mario two right when it came out And I thought it was the fucking most amazing thing ever because it looked it looked so much better when compared to Mario One. And I don't know, you know you don't know the story back then of what that'll happen, but It just looked like such a visual jump leap and it looked so immersive and really cool desperately wanted to play it. and I knew he had it and I knew he was at school. And I guess I faked sick I was home for some reason And then I broke into his house And I played it for as long as I possibly could, not knowing that his mom was home And she came out and was like, What the fuck are you doing? And she me out chase me out of the house But I was desperate, I was desperate and it was that that year that That for my birthday, I got an NES. I got an NES and I got Mario that came with it and I got Zelda And I played the hell out of those. and I borrowed Pnsylvania from that kid Yeah, I remember I think we all had that same experience with the Zelda, the gold Zelda cartridge feeling like some kind of like holy treasure or something. It was They knew what they were doing. They knew that not only was it something really special It was like elusive, like And that gold cartridge was so Be and like so alluring So let's talk about how this kind of, you know, this early interaction with video games then kind of transitioned into making them Tyler, you kind of, do you remember a moment where you sort of made the leak from playing games into you know falling around with them like bunch of amount Like, um There's like a very early memory where we used to get these large like rolls of paper, like white paper that was like three feet wide and was just a roll of paper We had roll ' them out on the ground and we would just like doodle on them when we were kids. And I remember drawing levels for video games on there, like platforming levels or like maze Like I think I refer to them as mazes, but they would have like keys and doors and stuff and he had to like Go to where the key was and then go to the door Um And this was few years before I'd even God about making video games quQuite a few years actually probably Um I actually like When I was eleven is when we got a pirated copy of flash four from one of my dad's friends Yeah. and u and I made a that program because I knew what Flash games were by then because that's what they called them on the internet. So You're like, oh, I've heard of flash because you can make you can make games with that But I think when we had it at first, you werere just making animations with it and you could makeake a button that when you click it like plays an animation And I think Based on just that, I made a game called Pigeon The button would move around Pgeon pooper. Yeah There they had like little little characters would like be animated to follow a path and you had to click on them and a pigeon was matched to your mouse So it's like you're moving a pigeon around and it played a poop sounds when you clicked on someone and then it went to the next the next one. And if it got off the screen, it would just go to the game over screen I think It's a less burn that on the Wonderful to see like the perfect through line of tone in all your games apparently, as well, even from pidge and poop too. Yeah. everyverybody blames me for poop. come on. If you're asking eleven year old to like design a game, it's gonna be about poop He are you doing? What are you saying Yeah we're too quick on it to just dismiss that or think it's child I guess I was eleven, by yet I burned that on I burned that ono CDs and sold it at my middle school for five dollars. G got got a racket going on I made like I made like sixty bucks I'm like, whoa So that like set a fire under your feet to like make more games? A you then kind of like a little software dealer cool Oh yeah, absolutely I think I started sort of making them like a Well, I was eleven or like close to turning twelve when I made pgeon pooper. Yeah. and then I made a bunch of tiny little games and then I made a sequel to Pision Pooper and then U Probably around that time was when I set up a website and started uploading stuff to the internet Yeah, cool. Did you ever like throw on things like new grounds and things like that or put them up on my website first and then once I had my website set up, I wanted to I wanted to get them uploaded on other websites because That's how people found games to play And so I was just basically like emailing websites that that I knew you could play games on like Albino black sheep and new grounds and stuff.. Most of the websites just had an email where you send it to them and it would go into avoid some inbox where someone's like, this game sucks not even going to respond to it. And then When I went to newew grounds, they made you fill out of form to upload it to their website or to submit it to the website And I uploaded it on that form, and then it was just immediately on the website There is immediately on the website Within like ten minutes of it going on the website, it had like two thousand plays And like a hundred people writing reviews for it. And I'm like I was quick. What the hell? Let' I thought I was submitting it for somebody to review and get back to me in like a week if it's worthy of being on the website Nice. Yeahah, straight into an accidental like commercial game developer I mean, it was very appealing to see I'd show up instantly and everything just sort of follows for Yeah yeah yeah. like that instant interaction with strangers, right? Not just like your friends or anything from school, like people coming in and Ping the game straight away. It's gott to be acceler What about you, Edmund? Like when did you make that leap and whose house did you break into to use their PC to do so? I didn't, I mean, growing up, I didn't that wasn't an option or I didn at least I didn't think it was an option Um I didn't get into anything game related until I think I was a freshman in high school Um, and They had copies of click and play which was this really like rudimentary game making engine Um it was it's very reminiscent of Warrio aware, the one where where you could actually make little mini games. All right. I forgot about that Warrior weare? Yeah, it was very similar to that. like super, super simple You make pixel based animations You can loop them, you can play sound effects with them, kindind of like Fash. U and I made a few little games with that and then I got really into I think that I think yeah, I think the year after that I got really into Duke Nukem three D modding. Um, I got really into like Th D. shooter modding. Duke Gom three D was the one I was like most familiar with and I can make the most. I did, you know, made my school. That herrific. Rine. Yeah Um, and then I briefly got into another Asy game engine thing where you could you use Asy art and it's like really basic programming stuff. And again, I made my school and There was dialogue and Eeduc kid interaction stuff And that that was it. That was it was like I wasn't I didn't think I was making games I just thought I was fucking around with these tools that everybody had Um, and uh never even entertain the idea of working doing that for a living at all. I wanted to do comics. instead my while I wasn't eleven, I was probably sixteen, but I was making comics and selling them at my school R. Ande and Tyler are very similar in that regard. Like we're both very driven and we've always had projects Like it's it's just been a part of our life since we were very little. mine was just illustration based I want to write stories and tellell jokes and main characters And that's was the only option that I had. but I had no future in that. L there was no There was nothing going to come of that. I got rejected repeatedly And I actually made a webs I learned to make websites so I could try to sell my comics online. and inadvertently ran into flash because it was what all the kids were using in nineteen ninety nine in two thousand to make a really cool website, an interactive website So I learned that justust like I can sell my comics But then I started making animations And I started submitting stuff to new grounds and I started to get approached by people like Tyler or even Tyler eventually. that were like, Hey, I like your animation it was actually him. Yeah. was He was one of those kids. Um, Hey, I like your stuff. Let's make a game together. you know, I'm a programmer. I tried to program and flash and stuff, but I hate programming. I just It doesn't Doesn't do it for me, Do doesnn't fill me up in the same way Um, So I started working with u You mean it was mainly Tyler Florian and Calder Bradford thoseose are the three New grounds programmers that I worked with over the course of a good eight years, nine years. And so Ye was it that you guys first started collaborating together? Uh, the first game was Eher, right? It would have been two thousand eight two thousand eight. That was that was the tail the tail end of that really Yeah. I had messaged you before that Yeah. I remember Tyler was the elusive. Tyler was the fixer. So Tyler was the new. I remember pretty vividly from everybody else's perspective Tyler was the youngest, they were all young Tyler was the youngest of the young and the know it all But the boy He doesn't know it all because he knew it all. L he was the person that when Florian couldn't get something done and he wanted to figure out why this was laggy and whatever else begrrudgingly ask Tyler for some advice the same age as Florian, by the way. Well, are you? thought I thought Florian is a year I mean, look that's not that big of a differenced ye. Well, it is when you're like fifteen, sixteen years old. You were all very little back then. You're cating the monus at that point in time But uh I do vividually remember that. It was it was like Tyler was the one that knew knew what the fuck was going on and people had to go to him to to get the information on how to fix the problems that they had made for themselves Yeah. And and I eventually started working with them on them But we always knew of each other you could avoid it Yeah. everyverybody knew of Gish like keep swinging into each other in that like new grounds community, right Yeah I remember reading about Gish in a magazine That's crazy. All right And how old were you then ten I've That's probably like six or seven. No I think You were probably you were probably fourteen fourteen. Yeah. Yeah probably four because that's when that would have been or fifteen is probably one great game came out. Yeah. Yeah Wow wow. It's interesting you both kind of share this thing of like you know, sort of filling around in tools and not thinking about it as a job. I had a similar thing. likeike, I mean, I was, you know, whatever PC game that I had had like a map maker or I'd be drawing similar to you T I remember those big rolls of paper. I wasn'trawing on them, but like, you know, games on them, but You know, I'd draw a map, but it was never kind of with the thought of like, oh, I want to make games. and then someday you kind of realize that you're like, o, there is a way to kind of do this, right? Like it can be So when let's talk about that sort of first because I mean Tyler you've made a bunch of games before you tackled Eether, right on your grounds. and when you're out there doing stuff. So like let's talk about those early days of you two coming together in those those kind of first games. So there things that just kind of like immediately clicked or anything that you remember in particular about that kind of that working relationship early on. Tyler's memorys gonna to be better than mine. Yeah. I was like spinning plates like like a This was like the peak of my career where I was like I need to make as many games as I possibly can. and in order to do that, I need to work with as many people as possible And I want to make really cool stuff with whoever is excited and driven and wants to do cool stuff Um and Eether was What? fourteen days of development two weeks. I think what I remember of that is that you messaged me and and everybody else you were working with was offline. So you're like,y, wantan to make a game? I have this idea. That's right about about a game where you Bike I don't remember what the It was The way that I remember it pictured in my head was that it would have been like a vertical scroller where you it was sorry. They don't have to go to the moon That's when I remember you pitching me. about it And I was like, yeah, sure, I think you might have sent me like a little bit of concept art or something or a little like some their art or whate And then I think I grabbed it and like Two days later, I send you one, that wasn't a vertical screen, but it was a horizontal screen where the camera was like rotating to match the gravity of the planets and put a bunch of planets out there and As you flew around, the camera would like spin Down was always down and it was prettyretty trippy Yeah huh. And I was like, what about something like this where it's not just straight up and it's actually like all around with like gravity and stuff. And I think that impressed you Oh yeah, well, of course That was like my style for Flash games was always like, I'm going to do shit that nobody's seen before in a flash. Yeah he like basically handed over to D Mario Galaxy and I was like, o Yeah, all right Yeah, Mario Galaxy was out for like a year So I that would that would have been in my head I for sure. and working on that. Um No Yeah. And I just remember from there we just like had to figure out how to turn that into a game be dead in like two weeks Yeah, we just threw it together. was it was a very Very brief but very fun. I remember enjoying it but it also being like emotionally taxing, like because I'm trying to like This was this was the prototype for Isaac when it came to me trying to be like Let's write from how I felt as a kid And that was the first time I hadd ever really done that where it's like you know, trying to like dredge up like insecurities that you have as a child. and loneliness and like hiding in your own imagination and you know, kind of just touching into the A lot of the tropes that I use now, just like self destruction and and withdrawing from the real world and you know, it being to the detriment of of a kid like that. And I remember being really I remember waking up crying? And it was like, I just felt like It was just heavy. this heavy, heavy, heavy feeling And I knew that that that was good I knew that it was like, okay, well If I'm feeling this, maybe like at least it could posossibly move somebody else. something you done with it, right? Because I was trying to do something special, like something a little more personal than I had done in the past. And I think Eher was my first like really personal story Um which started that ball rolling of like I felt rewarded for being very open and honest about myself. Um So I wanted to continue to write from personersal experience Yeah. because I mean, what how many games did you've obvious got a bunch of other stuff you're doing in Flashb?ike how many games had you made by this point in time? Mal thirty thirty, twenty eight thirty Yeah just get them Yeah. It depends on like, what you what you count because I made a bunch of crap too, little garbage game I can's. I made like this podcast that can. I made like I made like ten games that I would want I would be if somebody said, Hey, what you make in those eight years? I'd be like these ten games Be these are okay, you know The selective loudog Eher is definitely like the first or second of like the top like Yeah. I think Te fuckking Eether are like the best games for me personally that I made I guess now you've kind of, you've spent your time like, you know, just putting out this huge body of work. This is what that, you know, that Ira glass quote is about, you know, in regards to like the distance between taste and execution, right? and not only kind of closing with a body of work, right? The two of you at this point in time have put out a dozen, two dozen games or something like that. now you're kind of ready to S something more, right?? deepen that experience with folks. Yeah. Yeah, I double check the timeline on this. just to make sure that my memories were correct, but we did St making Eether like right after Braid came out Okay, yeah And on the part of that that that was indefinitely Yeah. This braid like Rid really like u set the ball rolling on like people wanting to make games that had like artistic meaning and were not just like arcade shooters or whatever or Um You know, they had a term for it back then, which was art game. Yeah. and I was like the braid was kind of like the start of that as like a movement. U yeah So I definitely played a part in it. And then also I think Castle crrashers came out. Probably as we were working on it, which is like the other end of that two Xbox games that were both massively successful and like wildly different from each other Yeah And I mean, I'm sure you you knew all like Dan and Tom and John and all those guys, right? Like they're in you kind of new ground squad and you know I worked on Braade I was the character designer for Braid. And I did all the an original animation Yeah I played grade because I was a judge in the IGF and I played it when it had placeholder art that It was like literally MS paint. Garbled Mario. like that that John had drawn like that's what it was. But the game was like so special that I was like, I want to be involved. Can I be involved in some way? And he's like, Well, I don't have an artist, I don't have animator I don't have a character designer Like if you want to You know, And I I worked on I worked I didn mean, I didn't do anything that made that game good. Um I wanted to be a part of it just because I wanted to I wanted to see how this unfolded and try to learn something from John and the whole process too And you two were right. Like I remember being in in the scene around that time, like, you know, and just all sry not in the same. Like I mean, just coming into it. like and And it was just such a such such a gravity well kind of moment, you know, like that game arriving on the scene haaving the impact that it did was really, really quite astounding. You know it was a go it was a gold rush. It was like o my Godd. it was it was the proof that like Any games could make money and suddenly A lot of a lot of doors open. a lot of doors open for for a lot of us And whil saying something, right? Like also it can achieve something at a small scale too. you know, like something that I think for many years folks thought was just reserved for big games, you know, with big budgets and You know, voice sing all that sort of stuff For are more of a more of a impacts than like big game that just tells its story through cutscenes or whatever, right? Yeah. likeike hardly. But I mean, you had a lot going on as well around this time too Because this is like this is meet Boy flash era as well, right? Like you did meet Boy in two thousand eight two so that was kind of gearing me boy, that was my most popular game. likeike a that's the one that draw that drew people in and they got the most plays across many, many different websites which is why I when I had the option to make a console game, originally, It was So like right after Eether, like right right after it was two thousand eight and to between two thousand eight and two thousand nine was I've got a fucking hustle. Like this is. Braid like Castle crashers, like Sz was bubbling up and like people were talking about getting funding and all this other stuff that I'd never even heard of And how do you get it? And what do I need to do? and I've got this backlog of all these games and stuff. How can I like? How can I use that? get attention so I can get a console deal. Um and I made I compiled all the games of that point onto a disc and sold it and I pushed it really hard. I even got in Game informer likeike really I I really hustled and sent that to everybody. I possibly could that mattered And one of the people who purchased it was Cliffy Be. with Flozinsky from some influence at the time, R? Yeah. Yeah. I gu we' to come out of thisk influence. Yes And I'm like, I know that name. And I like literally just took that email and like emailed them directly and I said, Hey, thanks for supporting me. Do you have any contacts in the industry that I can talk to? And he's like, yeah, you talk to this guy, Kevin He's really good He's the guy that did Braid and castle Crashers And I'm like, fuck Yeah, all right. And right at the same time I was trying to get a Nintendo contact. I could not get a Nintendo contact So I even met with u I didn't meet with. I ran into Reggie. on the show floor of GDC of the award ceremony. and I just like rushed him, got pictures with him and said, I really want to make games for Nintendo Give me your card. anything. likeike how come I he's like, sure, and he gave me his card And I I kept calling them and they kept pushing me away. So I turned it into a bit and recorded myself calling them. and put it up online and it went you know, a little viral in the indie community enough that The right person saw it. his name's Dan Adlman And he's like, if you are serious, let's work together. So I got those contacts And I'm like, What do I do with these things And at the time I thought, well, I'll do Gish two with Alex Austin, you know, that's the game I was most known for Critically, you know, it won awards and stuff like that U, and I try to leverage that And they said, sure, lets let's do that And I needed Alex was like, well, we need somebody who is skilled in in console porting and stuff I'm like, I know this guy's name's Tommy And I made a flash game with him So I know he I know I can work with him. That was usually what I did too as I tested the waters with all these different people and I grabbed I held onto the ones that I knew that like, okay, this is a valuable person Yeah, it's worth so much, right Yeah And he's like, Yeahah, I can I can help you port this And I'm like, all right, Tommy's going come and live in the office And Alex begrudgingly said, okay, and we were like all starting to work on Yish too which was is very apparent that it is way too big, way too ambitious And we said, okay, well, let's just call it a let's just do Gest remake. And then that wasn't going anywhere. And I noticed it was Alex was just kind of like dropping like a rock And It wasn't going to happen And we weren't hitting any deadlines and I was really freaking out thinking, okay, every opportunity that I've worked for for the past year and a half hustling and doing all the stuff and getting all these contacts. I'm ruining this. Like all these people are going to be like, well, this guy's a joke You can't get anything done. . So I said, Okaykay, well, forget this I can't do this anymore. I moved Tommy in with me and my wife. in this tiny little apartment. And I called him up and I said Gess it is not going to happen anymore. but I've got this game called Super Meat Boy and it's it's going to be this like better version of this really popular and I gave them all the stats of like how many views it has and whatever else and They said, that's fine. We just want to work with you on something I remember was it That was that was that was it And the rest is in a movie that you can watch if you haven't seen it, right Yes, it is M. So that will enable us to skip straight over to Tyler Because you had a similar moment, right? Like you I remember the first time like you came across my radar, Tyler was Closure. Like your're a fllash game that you took to console, right? How did How how did you make the leap from Flash to the to the mightighty console U It was all around like the same time as Ed really happ. I was starting college right after Eether was done Um So and I think Ed wanted to tryry and pitch Eether as a console game Um I was eighteen and I like had No experience working on consoles or with C plus plus or C or anything. I just made I was just making tiny flash games. So like at the time I was like G me like give me like a year or two to like get my skills up to par. be able to do that And then I started working on a flash game called Closure which came out in early two thousand nine U And that one got a lot of attention and that also felt like, hey I could make a full version of this game Um Like there's so much more I could explore with this idea that we that we did in a flash game. likeike there there's it's worth expanding onto something bigger Flash version of the game won some like awards and got some attention Um at uh like a penny Arcade exppo showcase thing in Indieade Um And I uh But yeah, around that time is when I started working on like, let me just remake this game in C plus plus Kind of as an excuse to learn C plus plus, but also trying to make something bigger and more ambitious and U we did that and then in one Like it won an IGF award from basasically just the first set of levels that we had was because We didn't submit it when the game was done. We just submitted it as soon as there was like a demo of whole version of the game. the old days rightm your protype to the . like, we have one world. We have like one like twenty levels. Let's just submit it and see what happens. I li I bait and switch because a bunch of stuff that I had like the indndicate and pack thing both for the flash game and I'm like, hey I'm working on a better version of it. Can I just demo the newer version of it instead of the flash one that was submitted and they're like, yes, sure So I demoed at those conventions with like the first like twenty levels of it And we won an audio award at the IGF basasically the first yeah just one track of music in the game at the time. Uh but, you know, it was There was some dynamic music stuff, which was, you know, new ish at the time, especially for like an indie game or whatever. Um You know, every game does that now, That was something I was playing around with for flash games as well, which was not super common in flash games And from there I We had got I got funding from the Behemoth, which is the video game company. That was created by the new Gones Gy, Tom Fault. And it alsole crashes and Alien H. So they're castle crashers guys. I knew them from New Grounds And but Yeah. so the behemoth offer like they offered me funding for closure And I took that opportunity And I dropped out of college to move down to San Diego and finish that game out Did Tom have to go and personally tell your parents that you were dropping out of college because of him, essentially I mean, I just told my parents I'm dropping out, like they're probably fine because they didn't wantan to have to pay for college anymore. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, att least you had. I had enough like scholarships and like like a little bit of like a little bit of funds that was covering what I was there for, but that was all running out around the time I dropped out. So it was like you know, I think I escaped college with like Six thousand dollars of student loans Wow You did you did good. And if I went another year, if I went one extra year, it would have been like fifty thousand dollars of student loans Like there's a pretty that's a pretty big difference there L I remember that time. I remember that time pretty vividly because I remember just like I kept saying, Tyler He would message me and I'm like, I'd be like, how's school? And he's like, Well, the teacher is telling us to do this stuff and he says, do it this way and I do it more efficiently and I get a worse grade And I'm like, whyy are you there? I got fine grades N they'd ever give me bad grapes for anything. I just I was like, o whatever I don't fuckking care at that. It just didn't make any sense. He was working on a console game and going to school for video game design. And it' just like you, you already did it. just just leave, leave, leave, leave, leave I know I did. I did. I wanted to finish. This is what happened was that the the last semester, which was the semester where I I knew that I was ready to drop out I just said, fuck it, I'm not going to take any of the classes that are like prerequisites for future classes. I'm just gonna to take a bunch of bunch of math classes for shit that would be hard to learn on my own that I want to learn bunch of math. Yeah, I did a whole bunch of mh and I w out of college. You got your partying out of the way It's all coming together. Yeah, and then I moved to San Diego into into a party office with the beid I did some meth with Stamper. Yeah Yeah, we interviewed I interviewed John years ago now I think in twenty twenty four was so good just getting the whole story of like the, you know, those guys doing it like everything themselves essentially like for The last God what's it been twenty plus years, you know, John John Ballz? Yeah Joh Ballz. Yeah. Yeah he I remember pretty vividly where He had to he was the one that they He had to mortgage his house for because he believed in everything and he like went into super debt Yeah. Someone's got to by pride. Yeah someone's got to do it. Yeah Okay, so now we're at the kind of period where you two, you know, you made some games together and now you've gone off and you're kind of doing your own thing. You went and did Isaac and then you know, you spent some time working with Kyle and then on crypto and Necredanwer as, right, Tyler No I just I I did not work on it. I'm in the credits as a tester because I like t. All right, I got feedback one time. It's myarch failing me. Yeah I don't know. it might be on my Wikipedia page or something because they But every game would whyy not Chuck a couple more in the there. Yeah. Yeah, I might have played it for like three hours and been like, Hey what if this bon did this? That's a credit. I get the same thing as people are like, Hey you made hotline in Miami, and I'm like, what? Where you going? Oh, well, you're credited on IMDB for taking it. because we're like I maybe got special I got to thank you in the credits so it's like Yeah Thanks if someone's like, hey, what's the math formula for this wobble blum? Oh, it's this. Like, oh, I'm in the credits of that game now Beach Bum's June Jackpot is dealing out winners all week long. sccore seven dollars Sn or spray tans, seven dollar Red light or sauna, seven dollar lotions and more. Feeling lucky? Get buy one, get one seventy percent off packages. No gamble, just glow. The odds are in your favor, and these seven dollar deals are your ticket to a golden summer. Beach Bum's June Jackpot sale is live through june seventh. Don't miss it at Beachbum Tanning. Your glow up starts now. Head to beachbum dot com and stay tan and tasty all summer long Discover a spectacular island destination with crystal blue seas, endless sunshine, and the cool Bahamian breeze. Bahamar, loocated in Nassau Bahamas offers your choice of three luxury hotels, over forty five fine dining and nightlife venues, John Batiste', All New Jazz Club, the Caribbean's most luxurious casino, and one of the kind experiences for the entire family. Like our fifteen acre tropical water park, wildlife sanctuaries, world class golf course, and so much more. Visit bahamar dot com today So you guys, u then like you came together again, right to make a game before Eugenics, right? Yeah The end is nine. Yeah, that whole that experience. There's also the basement collection in there. Yeah, it was like there was something else Yeah, Tyler Tyler gathered everything together and said Remember Fash I think you pitched that to me and as like as what was it was supposed to just be turning your CD that was like this is a cry for help or whatever into u But it onsteam is like a collection of flash games suggest some stuff U that took three months to prepare and that was in between when Cosure came out on consoles and when it came out on steam for me So I ended up launching I watched like that game and closure for Steam came out on Steam like a couple of days apart I didn't even realize that just like t I be God Yeah, I was like at PCs like during that as well, talking to people at Valve in person or whatever. it's kind of a That was a kind of a crazy year Yeah, it sounds like it. I mean, it's like even just, you know, when I was doing my research seeing like the years of because some of these don't have you know, like you know, like on yourikipedia for example, obviously, you can c cross reference in other places, but There'll just be a year where there's like both of you have like Five releases It's just like How is this happening? Like you're So you guys were you working on m projects at once most of the time in the kind of, you know, late two thousands, early twenty thousand and ten s I think I kept doing it until I couldn't do it anymore once I had a kid. It really slowed things down late lateent Because, you know, back in the day, you could do that. You could juggle like multiple flash games at once and it's totally fine. But like when you're trying to release serious games that you're charging people for and you're working on three or four games at once, it's really stupid. Yeah I learned the hard I learned that the hard way. I was going to say, sound like you learned that along the way somehow. No yeah. it was's it was a terrible. It was a terrible. So where did a couple of those kind of lessons come in for you to? You know, especially on some of the projects that you worked on together. I mean, obviously you were on Magenics for a long time before you got on too that W there any kind of defining moments that you're like, o, fuck we can't do it like this again or I made I made Tyler a deal that once my plate was clean, it was it wasn't really a promise to him, but it was a promise to me. I said it so everyone could hear it I'm not going to work on anything else. I'm just going to work on this. Um and for for at least a good or Five years of development Um that outside of, you know, working on children Um and a wife Um, that was that was the that was the the one the one project in my life because I made the mistake around the time that Ty that Tyler came to to Santa Crz. So he moved from from from San Diego to Santa Cruz about ten years ago Almost eleven years ago. And prettyretty much exactly ten years ago, I think. Okay. So that was around six rightight after the birth of my daughter F first daughter and That was the time where I'm like, oh shit I better get all of this stuff done and do all the stuff that I need to do because Life is over after this and I'm not going to be able to do what I used to do. So I took a bunch of projects on at once. and And then and then when he came down, we were also prototyping at the same time. and team meat was breaking up at the same time. and it was just like this very tumultuous, tumultuous and overwhelming five years of like refiguring out what was going on, what I wanted to do and want to One of the answers to that question was the end is nine. It was like Okay. Not making a meat boy game anymore. That ship is sailed, right M what that felt that felt bad It felt empty and horrible And my first instinance is like, well, what if I want to make anotheram programmer? What if I want to make another platformer? What if I want to make An platformer And we were working on a bunch of protypes. One of them were are Burros, which was a platformer. It was I don't know what you wantan to cos aunky like Kind of maybe, shooter Yeah, it was like, u go up Selunky. Yeah. But but also I think we we had Megaman is like a major Megaman on there. Oh Megan was a There's a bunch of other random random stuff in that game. There was like, u There's like a Pachinkko machine or whatever. Oh my Godd, I forgot about that, Tyler. There's a lot of really cool elements though that like looking back, I'm thinking like, there's so many cool things, but the thing is is This whole game was on this like What do you call it? the circle Yeah it's it's aortal It's a warps, it's a warp circle. I think geometrically it's like the inside of a cylinder Oh might again. But it was also like there's like an infinite Zoom kind of thing going on in it As you play, you're like mwing on g like your character doesn't's yourle and when you look. The whole the world moves Oh. When you move left and right, the whole thing is like rotating around. Yeah, sounds cool, right? Sound I'm in. But you move? Whatere do you go? It zooms in. so your character's always in the same spot Anyway, it made people motion sick and there was no way to stop that from happening. The worst the worst part about it is like, well, we could just put like a warning in it and then you look at it you like I couldn't play it. I couldn't play it And I don't start. There's like a bunch of scientific research about it and it's like, oh, one of the things that can make motion sickness worse is if you like Mention to someone, are you feeling emotion Like yeah, like people can be fine and then you can be like, does this make you motion sick? and then they'll like their brain will in on that and be like Oh shit it is making me emotion sick. L it was it was terrible because chological thing that happens anyway There was There was a lot of cool. There was it was cool. It was a very cool stylish game and not many games that I've worked on. that I can show a video of and people will be like, well, that's fucking' cool. Like that looks neat And it's just like, well, it's booiler We still get people They're going like wear vomit when you play it. Yeah. Like people still want us to bring that back at some point.. I do. I do too. I would love to re explore that in some way. We just can't do the spinning thing. I don't know if that's like is that the whole selling point or what? L that's the cool factor of it. But ye the game really good controls and really good platforming and it I think that element of it was one of the most fun parts of it. So we kind of rift off of that and decided we're going to make a platformer And that was that was the end is n Yeah. how long how long were you on that game for Tyler But the end is ny. Well, that took like nine months to make, I think. Yeah. Okay. It was was a very was a very quick. I was like speed rununning a Game developmentood Yeah It took a lot, it took a lot of time. Yeah I remember there was just there was things where it's like there were we cut so many corners as well just to get it out quickly, but you don't notice that that much. Like this is a thing that that I remember for that game is that We had the Cfare belt platforms where they could go Like you'd stand down on and you'd move left or right or you'd latch on them and it' pull you up U in the design, you also wanted ones that they wanted to go all four directions the ones that went down just didn't work itch' do like like the physics just it like the character wouldn't latch onto the edge properly for the ones that were moving down And like if I had like two days to figure out that bug, I could have done it, but I'm like not have the downward ones and move on. And nobody nobody questions noobody questions Nobody's like, why aret there any downward because because for that game, you can just design levels that don't have them. It's not like It's not like a Mario maker thing where people would be like, Wh whyy can't I make it go down I didn't miss him. Yeah,ly. I wouldn't have had that mean that's like work, dumber, not smarter. you know, the game development mee there Yeah But's talking about lessons learned. Edmin, I heard you chatting on another podcast about like the release of that game and kind of like, you know, kind of hitting it and surprising people with the release or you know not doing too much marketing because I mean you guys I think it's really worth reiterating for our listeners here that like You guys are self publishing all of these games Likere you're trucking the out I yourselfves Yes, but anythingything comes out on steam is always going to be self published And so but that one, you kind of learned some lessons around the kind of the marketing of the game or you know, needing to give it a little for lack more on the fire, right Yeah? Yeah. Okay, there's a couple things One was I didn't really want to do a bunch of interviews and talk about the game because I knew at some point I would have some sort of mental breakdown. And I don't want to I didn't want to do it on like O can one of these? You know what I mean? J if your arn harm placeays and It was it was just yeah, it was just kind of like this was a game that I just wanted it to come out They needed to come out because this was a For me, the question was Do I want to keep doing this And I knew it would also make Tyler some m Hopefully, right, fingers crossed So that's a good enough motivator of like, okay This can maybe this maybe this is my last game I don't know yet. I want to test and see if I'm still in this because I was at that point not really liking. I didn't like The scene, I didn't like the industry I didn't like the business side of things in the slightest And everything was stressful and awful. And that's what the game' is about, likeike it's about feeling stressed out Awful. in like writing a panic attack that never ends Um I didn't want to talk about it And I didn't want to do it. And then a part of me was like Well maybe I don't need to. Theyre like, maybe I don't. Maybe Maybe it'll sell itself because my name's on it. And people will just find it out, they'll just discover it and that'll be it and the word of mouth will carry it And I was very wrong Very, very wrong Um, And I've always really The games that mattered, I've always hustled to make sure I put them in front of people And this was one that mattered and I did not And it is a I dropped the ball. It was I dropped the ball there. It was my job to do that. I couldn't do it. And I didn't do it. And it did not I think that people think it's Definitely one of our best games Yeah. I think that it's Bet than Super Meat Boy in many ways Um I also know why it's Also not as good as meat Boyay Men But it's just this very hard harsh game That says a lot And I'm extremely proud of. And there is a select group of people who absolutely love it But it did not reach beyond those people It is just such a good reminder though, isn't it? Like even I mean, because at this point in time, you got quite a following on social media you know, yourself as well, Tyler and it's, you know, these things And you know, when we are self publishing these games ourselves, could hererculle and effort whilst you're also making the game to then kind of like all day, every day be switching hats to this kind of this next mode of then hocking your awares to the world and making sure that as many people see it as possible. it takes It's quite a load, you know It's a lot Yeah, pretty I'm pretty sure like marketing push for Mugenx was like more time than the entire development of the end designine It was also fun It was also very fun and u And I felt good the whole time, so it wasn't like I was worried about not being able to Because people will see it. and I'm a firm believer of that. if If a developer loves their game and is excited about everything and is happy and It's going to really help things. So mgenics, let's let's get stuck into that. How do this Anone who's playing the game and maybe didn't come along for the journey is just like How the fuck did this come about? this game, you know, like this idea is brilliant. it's so wonderful. And but you guys working on it for Yeah know, this is this is your longest project ever, I imagine, right for the both of you, right again were keeping it around for years before you got stuck into it in a big way. amm I correct in saying that too? Yeah, I mean, it's it's it's what one of the nails in the coffin for me when it came to work into the team meet situation. It was I really wanted to work on this project It was a very different project, you know, almost not the same project, but the world the general hub breeding cats sharing DNA, all that stuff was what I really liked and the characters in the town and stuff like that. I really liked that And we had a prototype And I was the only person who really wanted to work on it and It got cancellled. And I when I left, I took the IP with me and I had it. and it was just like And Tyler has said like, I wasn't conscious of it, but I think I was constantly trying to find a way to get him excited also about doing something like Eugenic. Yeah because mion me ideas or in the same What was a different animal or whatever The or whatever alien Yeah. I still kind of want to do the alien thing, but u Yeah, I was just in love with the idea. And u It was It was kind of once I had cleared a bit of my plate and realized that I wanted to continue to make games that were like All right, if we did meenics What would it look like What would we do? And I'm pretty sure the first thing we said was turn based strategyame and we're like, no. That's too hard I'm pretty sure I suggested that to you before I was even working on it where it's like yeah, you probably did. You had like the Pokemon battles for it. I'm like, you ever think about like like a final fantasy tactics type thing instead Do you know the amount of work that would go into that? Yeah, it' take like six years or something. That's insane. Why would we do that Yeah Um But yeah go ahead, Tyler. T tell them about the prototypes. Yeah, yeah, we were protpe with some shit. We had a Around the time we were kicking it around, we were playing a lot of board games as well. Um, like we're playing a board game Kingdom Death monster U notot heard of it. That's incredible though. It's a cool g. It's it's it's a narrative focused D andD type game Yeah, the the big draw for it for most people is like the crazy figurines that that come with it. Yeah Um But it's a boss battler like Oh I've seen this game. Yeah, I didn't know what it was called. Yeah, I've seen this before. Yeahah, this is crazy. It's a very u it's like a very narrative heavy board game in a way R It like the mechanics of that game are not They're not great. overly complicated in a lot of ways that a board game should not be. where it feels like they wanted it to be a video game But it was just so cool like what they were able to do. like narrative wise, like having like this group of like five peopleeople in like loin cloths with like sticks and stones trying to take down like eldridge beings or whatever Yeah, like happen to them and they would go insane or like were attached to a rock that had to take a slot in their inventory stuff like that. I get fucked up in like various types of mental and physical disorders and stuff. and There was like a base buildilding part of that h. You could like breed the people and try to get like a new generation to go on flights And we were like explain that we're You know, something like this could work very well for Muuchenx. because there's some parallels to the stuff that we wanted to do there Um So we were kicking around a lot of ideas for the game with this if I can ask was this like you had this idea for the catbiding and everything, but you're trying to find the part of the loop that was like how you get them to fight and there were kind of a different options It was one hundred percent that. It was like Yeah. And that's and that's I think that's one of the things that stood out. It's like, well, Kingdom Death does that. It's got a it's got a home hub where you populate by breeding likeike that's that's like the one of the core hubs of the game And that was always the design for Eugenics. And it was like, well That's really, really cool. We were playing a we were playing D and D as well. Tyler didn't play as much back then We're playing a whole bunch of D and D and I had run I had I had just started DMing Um I was kind of getting my beat in the water when it came to writing a homebrew campaign and having my like family play through it and stuff and that really Just tables in general. rolling on tables and All that sort of stuff was really neat. And u and really really fun. I like the whole ones and zeros aspect or ones in twenties or zeroos and twenties, ones and twenties. U aspect of D and D which I wanted to incorporate into any kind of events where you could critically fail or critically succeed and have these really swingy things that happen Um That was a really neat aspect of D andD, but we're playing we're playing a lot. We got more in a bo games over the years, but Board games kind of were like What we're doing every week. from myo for many, many years There's a lot of cool stuff in this space that hasn't really been like adapted to video games that well yet Yeah. Oh peopleople I look looking for inspiration for new things and play on board games But ye, for sure there, but We it did sell it still did take us a while to land on like turn based Uh, like the the turn base com that we had We started off, we had like a prototyper. It was like a beatem up game. kindind of Like a castle crrashers esque thing Um which that one didn't work out because We really wanted you to have a team of cats go on an adventure, like four cats. or you know, we didn't have the size set in stone, but we wanted moreore than one cat to go on an adventure because it felt like the whole like dynamics made sense for for animals and There was a lot of like stories you could tell like dynamic stories you could tell about the ways they interact with each other and stuff. though we tried a a version where it was like a real time strategy, like Diablo esc thing where you had three cats that were just running around a battlefield and you had to like click on them and give them a command and they would stop what they're doing to do the thing that you told them to do and then go back to doing cat stuff And there were like three of them and then you had to like juggle And this kind like a herdting cats thing as well, right? And like a herurding cats thing and like they would stop and like lick themselves and you're like, Oh, you got to dodge the attack, but you're lookingking yourself and it would like There would have been a way to make that fun, but the prototype was was of that was was basically impossible to do anything likeike On paper, it seemed it seemed genius. On paper, it was like, wow, this like works so fucking well. And Yeah I'm sure if we put the time into it, we could have made it fun, but like Yeah, it had a lot of obvious issues from the prototype You know what? That's actually a really interesting question because you're you, you're saying or you're talking about different prototypes. We know you spent like six plus years on this game when you say prototypes, like what's your kind of process here? Are Are you guys working on a part like did you work on that for say six months or was that kind of just like a week basash something together? and Are you kind of doing it like in, you know, the main branch of the game or are you like Lapping them together in flash or something or's what's the deal U bothoth of those prototypes like the Castle Crashers one and the RTS one were in my engine. Yeah R U Castle Crusherss one was probably like a week or two of work. I didn't get that far in it, but You know, my engine needed upgrades from like the N is nigh to handle some things and's like, oh You know, when it's a custom engine, you're also like finding stuff that the engine needs as your're prototyping I So the castle crashes was like crashers or whatever we recall, that demo of it figuring out a structure like Like a like I dynamic character that can have different moves tied to the buttons depending on what you would breed or whatever That one didn't really go too far before we realize that wasn't the way to go. The Rts CS one, I think I worked on that for like L maybe two or three months. it were like on and off. I That one did that would got somewhere, but it didn't like get to the point where you could like play a full fight and like enjoy it which It's not a good sign. Hs good I forget to do this sometimes, but I mean, now we've like we've been talking about breeding cats and packs of cats and cats in Diablo style and Castle Crashher style and turn based combat based on kingdom death monsters But we've forgot Ive forgotten Edmund, do you want to tell our listeners who actually don't know what mugenics is what the game is because there'll be a bunch who are listening to this episode because they're playing the g having a ball, but like what is this game? likeike, you know, what's what's the kind of pitch for I'm still bad at the pitch and and I haven't read a better pitch, but U Mugenics is a turn based strategy game where you breed cats in your house and then take them on adventures And then you hoard items on these adventures, level up your cats And then if they survive you attempt to breed more of their bloodline in hopes that you breed in some of the abilities that they had into the kittens So then you can multi class. and use the items that you've acquired to go even further out into harder areas. Um, and it It takes a long time to beat peopleeople are finally starting to kind of beat it the the average player who started is they're finally getting to the end now. It's it's been really entertaining to see this like Ban art meta change of like, who's the coolest? And it's totally from where the average person is in the game and it's like it's neat to see because I feel like I accomplished something with character design because they seem to like every character And now we're suddenly seeing very late game end game type becoming fan favorites and u Yeah,' they're finally they're finally at the end. That's incredible. a lot of a lot of final moss art over the last couple of days. Oh reallyally okay. Yeahes. That's our That's our index where the average person is is like who are we seeing the most fan art of at any given point And it's just recently that it started being the final boss having a ton of fan art Yeah, and it's cool fan art too. There's a really epic I want to retweet a lot of it, but then it's also like know it is the final boss and it is technically spoilers. So I I always give them a like so they know I've seen it and hopefully they can read between the lines and understand why I'm not retweeting it And just to give our listeners some context here, like the game released three months ago as well. So that's, you know, that's a hell of a slog for folks to get through this game And there's still playing there. I mean, what you've got twenty six thousand reviews or something on Steam. It's like it's really It's doing its thing It's amazing stuff. Yeah, it's it's it's moving Yeah. And now you two aren't the only folks on the team, right? I don't want to kind of give that impression. How How big was the team that you assembled for this game We always had roughly ten people working on it in the end, I think I'll just go through the people Okay, if there's me and Tler U and then there are Uh Marty, Chase Help me Tler. so I don't forget. Marty Chase and Wes all did animations And Marty was the lead Um and then we've got Uh, Hmberry Sony Shock and Takara as the three illustrators who all twoo of them did background work. That looks very different from my flash style. And Takara did the What do think of a h L our profile pictures, what are they called Portrait Hud portrait, character Hud portrait charac Yeah character portraits and UI UI art and and the font. She eventually did faonts, yeah Yeah, she's still working on the front You didnn't have to ike you don't have all the like Russian characters for that is that is part of what she and she's doing that. it's funny that like Iies are given us Sophie's choice between like dealing with font licensing companies or making your own fonts and they're equally as terrifying. I think making your own font, it's f. I mean, the car is really wants things to look perfect So Yeah once you give her the ability to fine tune every little edge of everything. for me, I've made a billion fonts and I've never I've never edited a goddamn thing I put the pen down and I draw them and I ship them and they're done Maybe some curning here and there Yeah. And then we got it when somebody else has to go and make all the like two hundred. Yeah accented versions of the character a. It's easy. You just you just take a period or a comma and you put it above the existing thing We've also got Matthias and John who did all the music in the game which is phenomenal U and Matthias did all the voice work in the game for The radio u DJ. U We had some cameos from a bunch of different people for bits and bobs in there And then Joey Uh, Joey Curis did all of all of the sound effects in the game which is a tremendous amount And he basically did them all himself And they are very, very good. And we had a few programmers come in and out and help Eespecially the end develop Gram Gam little in u Oh then Uh, the the lead programmer co designer of repentance alsoso help the end of de Mment Mota squad I honestly should probably get a writing credit as well Pgram so yeah Be he wrote most of the event text in the game Yeah they were were counting him as a programmer because that was that was the original job was to implement all the events and then he should get he should get writing he should get writing credit for that So are these folks that you kind of like, you know, your Avengers team that the both of you have kind of assembled over the years on different things or are are they a bunch of new folks for this game Most of them are all like so, okay Marty Marty came recommended by Tom. My thinking that? Yeah. I think Tom recommended a lot of animators. Marty Yeahah, Marty's recommended by Calm and u wait, yeah And then Marty recommended a few other animators that helped out that came and went I've worked with Takara since she was young Um on sh She was like a I discovered her as one of the most prominent binding of Isaac fan art type people At very cool big in the community And I actually contracted her to do the binding of Isaac Tarot cards. I don't know if you ever saw those there. prettytty limited, but she did all of those and that was a project that we worked on together and then 've done some other stuff too And, uh Uh, Sony, same situation Uh, he It does a lot of fan art and very noticeable. the style is very bold and I always really liked his background Art. So I asked if he wanted to come on and do that and and then and then him U I work with her on fourceouls. She was one of the artists for Fceoules and, uh asked if she wanted to come on and do stized backgrounds Everybody's, you know, somebody I'veer worked with in the past or a friend of somebody Yeah who I've worked with in the past. It like two like I think Graham was just a like a local friends for a while before he moved away Camp and D with him and ye He would get very into the D and D like role playing stuff, which is why We let them write the event text because that's kind of the tone and we will h it We knew we'd be. it was great So you mentioned u music and yourre composers. and I'm so glad because she reminded me likes one of the those bonkers awesome parts of this game is like, I'm just sitting there playing and Whatuck is happening in my ears right now? It's so good. How did that how did that come about? Did that come from those two or like directly or did you kind of did you sort of riff on what you wanted together Yeah it's pretty it' such a wonderfully like unique sort of decision and direction to kind of take the game. It just felt so fresh, you know Oh yeah, for sure. It was u what's funny is The first time I ever worked with John and Matthias When it came to music was on musenic So that was before the bind of Isaac. Originally there's a there was a u is was I think they're still I don't know what the status is. mayaybe they're still active, but There's a band called Sleepy Time Gorilla Museum And they're like, u, I don't know you consider them Progue rock or they're metal Hard rock, I don't know I don't know what They were cool. Really out there, really, really hard really like kend Pagany. I don't know. felt like it felt like The songs were written by a man with goat legs with little flute That that was also in a metal band. I don't know But Matthias is a drummer for that band and his wife Carla, is one of the singers and the violinist And I saw them live many, many times, abbsolutely lo them and, you know, would always say hi and talk with them after the show or before the show And then the band broke up and Matthias had posted online that he is looking for voice work And I was like, o, this is a cool opportunity to work with this guy that I respect I need somebody to do a narration for the binding of Isaac, for the for the ent of the binding of Isaac And, um I had him do that. and that was the first time I ever worked with him. It was just The voice, which would later be revealed is the voice of Isaac's dad and narrating the introduction of the game And you know, shortly after that kind of concluded, but before rebirth started When I started working on Eugenics, I was like, I want really bonkers you know, multi genred fifties inspired vibe Like I want it to be old cartoony, but I want it to feel like all over the place and really embody the chaos and the humor of this weird game And I had written down some lyrics to the song Eugenics, the Mugenics, that one Yeah ye. And I I called Matthias up and I said, this is This is the song I have in my head and I sang it to him over the phone. and I said, can you do that And he did this fully produced Grand thing. Anny what you guys hear is what I heard. It was like That's crazy. Like this is crazy. L This isn't a video game thing. This is like on an album. This is amazing Can we continue to do that? And he's like, we absolutely can and I absolutely want to do this. like This is my wheelhouse I can do this Let's do this. And we did like I want to say sixteen to eighteen tracks maybe originally. A whole bunch of tracks. They all ended up in the in the radio portion of the game But u Every single one I was just like floored like and it was really cool because I felt like I was riffing with him when it came to I'm complimenting his work with like themes that I'm pulling in from the music and vice versa. And uh, when the when the game was canceled initially He for a good chunk of years. so he had this large body of work, all these amazing tracks. that he could be selling off of his website on Ban camp or whatever else. and every year he'd be like Do think it's time for me? Can I do this? Can I and I don't This is gonna eventually happen. It's gonna happen. Yeah. hold on.'t do it.old. Please, please don't Um And many, many years later when we started it, I said, it's okay Let's go back in and this is a different game now. We're going all that stuff, we're using that for something else. But we're going to use that as like a building A starting point for these other songs when it comes to vibe But now You're going to be writing for each zone of the game. And we want it to start out sparse and then end with, you know, full production with lyrics and everything. And so every song is going to be this fully produced U album version, essentially on loop Um, and, uh breast is history. I mean, it was just had us eating rats like right around then ammazing. It was it was just banger after banger. It was Phenomenal. and I remember getting scared at the end of development Uh, because we We built the game start to finish the way you would Like from the beginning like we just built it out like that As we went And u which is great too because they could really work on the fly. likeike when we werere like, okay, we actually need this this track needs to be in German now for a very specific reason. And so can you do that? And yes, we can do that. And now this track needs to be in Caveman speak Can you redo it in Caveman speak? Sure, we'll do it Um But with with as the game progressed, it was like they kept raising the bar is very, very hard And I remember having to I just had to push more and more and I didn' I didn't want to ever be like discouraging and say, you know, this isn't good enough They had to keep getting better. The song the tracks needed to get better so we needways getting big the tracks are good, right? Like Yeah. so it's out do themselves every time. Yeah. But they but they did it, but they did it They totally did it And good. It was um, it was great. A lot of really fun creative stuff came out of that It's definitely it definitely shows, you know, like as you play the game, you're like this isn't just a separate part of something where someone went off and did their own thing. There's just like this really talented team that are like into the game creatively, like one hundred percent, you know, like you they you can you can feel the alignment between the games's vision and this fucking completely out there like I said, completely fresh soundtrack is awesome. Yeah Yeah they had a lot of fun doing that and you can tell There is also the just because you know, the music doesn't take as long as the game to make. so there is a good There is a good. period of time where they didn't have any music to work on, which is when we're like, Hey, you want to just record stuff for the in game radio It's It takes me like ten minutes to code the in game radio up and then you can just spend the next year recording stuff like bits for that L intros and outros and jingles and fake commercials like a likeike a GTA radio style thing. Yeah And so they just brilliant like benefit of being Indian small sometimes as well is that like you can just do that stuff and it doesn't like spry or all have to be some like crazy cost or, you know, touching all these other people. It's just like someone empowered to just do their weird and wonderful fucking thing, right? We didn't have to like write and then get scripts approved and then go through the like Sag union for voice actor casting or anything like that and then like we just were like, Hey, Matthias just like u I record some radio bits and do whatever you find is funny. and I think I think you ended up cutting a couple of them that workt, but You know, we filtered we filtered out the good ones and put them in there Hell yeah. Yeah. it was it was just like, yeah, just go off, just go off and do do your thing and then'll have some fun I'll make it work. Speaking about being like small in Indian stuff like this, like and I mean this is in the greatest compliment. This is kind of one of those everything games, you know, like when you play it, it feels like almost all of your ideas made it into the game. and I'm sure that's not the case, but like it's just so dense and the experience is so varied from like a little bit to other bits Um How do you guys, you know, the two of you in your working relationship or amongst the team, how do you decide when you're doing something like the RTS cats and you're like, this isn't working out. Weve got to cut it or we're going to change a different direction or when to sort of say no to something going in and when to say yes to like, yeah, that's you know, we're four years in, but let's throw another thing into the game. What's your's your kind of metric for that stuff as you're working together day to day? I think Tyler knows It's funny because a lot of it is unspoken. I will say majority of it is unspoken. Yeah.. bothoth like have an idea of like know What our goal Yeahah, what our goals are and we know when something's working and it isn't. And Maybe during the end of development, it was like me saying It's Tyler' being the Wrangler where it's like Hey can we do this? u tellil's like whoa. We're gonna get this game done. Let's get this game done. Easy. No more, no more suggestions or Or um The best one was If you want that in, you're going to have to do it yourself. And I did and I did and it made the game better and was it's great. U So yeah, no, we There is The craziest thing about the six year development cycle is there was nothing that went wrong Like what the fuck is that? That's crazy Nothing, nothing went wrong. L Everybody I never really even had to crack the whip. It was like There were no issues. I never had any talks with anyone you know, outside of just checking in, like I was worried about Marty for a little while just be like Are you good? Because he told me initially he was worried about starting a project that could be That could be two years long. And I still them. I'm like, okay, you never know you know, that was that was it. and it prettyretty crazy, but I think To our credit, it just this is I think it's because we've been doing this for so long It comes very naturally to us and we know each other. We know what's good. We know what works And when we're confused on that, we talk it out and figure it out. And And for the most part, we are very much in control of what's going on So it's not like somebody else can take it and derail it We have control of the ship We know what we're doing, we know our destination We've done this many times. I'm So yeah, it just it just really went Amazingly Um, You wouldn't think that a game that was in development for that long You could say that about it, but Yeah. I wouldn't do anything differently I think we did I think we did the best we possibly could. It Also like neither of us are like yes men either and we're not afraid to like talk this talk shit out with each other if it's like, oh, this thing isn't like working well or like What should what should like this this piece this thing needs more work. this design doesn't work correctly like We're not like afraid to just be like, oh yeah, this is awesome. that's not what we're thinking which helps All. figure out like, you know Parts of the game need more work and stuff. Yeah And Tyler, like what about from like a tech or a tech process? like perspective or a pipeline perspective. because I mean, like this is, you know, for folks who didn't pick up on it earlier in the chat. like this is your own engine, right? Like, you know, the whole team' working in And as, you know, and everything game also is like an everything game that you've architecturally got a kind of wrangle and everything as well. Is there a kind of principles or sort of like, you know, beliefs that you have about like the way that it was kind of like it was kind of structured or pipelines that you had up by the way that you work technically that that helped it go so smoothly or You know that you that you strongly believe in. I mean, a lot of this is just the fact that, you know, we had the end is ny and we had the prototypes in the middle and like previous projects we've worked on But I've had a lot of time to like smmooth out all the workflow stuff in my engine, but u Like one of the biggest things about it that I value is just basically having no pipelinine The work, the art and animation is made in flash And the engine just in just the files that flash out That's it The animators can work in Fash the same way they've been working in Fash for like twenty years And they don't have to run a converter or an importorter or like set up. you know, double check import settings or whatever. They click the button to export from Fash and then they launch the game and the art and animation is in the 's awesome And then that sort of extends to a lot of other stuff like the audio Uh the audio is a lot of text files. They' like I'm not using F mod or anything like that. So there's a lot of text files But one of the benefits of that Like for Joey is that I just have like a little hot key in game to reload all the audio. So he can edit all the parameters in the like the audio definition file And then press a button game and all the changes'll be immediately Available nameame ing him to here. so it makes it easy to like that's we can adjust things and it being a text file is You know, you can use whatever text editor you want. you can copy paste stuff around in any way that you want He can request changes, like I like questests like a I need to be able to add looping sounds here or whatever I don't need to like make an editor for that. I just makeake the game do that and then say just add this to the text file and it'll make the sound. And what about like, what about testing, like, you know, play testing stuff. I mean, as someone who's made a bunch of strategy games like, it's The surface area for bugs is crazy. Like did you all how do you all handle that internally? did. Oh yeah. There's automated tester for that type of stuff in the game where it will remove the frame rate limit and simulate the game as fast as it possibly can which is like twenty thousand updates a second and it will assign AI brains to the player cats, which is what the enemies use. and looad up random levels, configure the cats randomly and then runun it at twentyty thousand times speed or whatever. twenty thousand updates a second And if it crashes, it'll be like This is the random seed that generated the configuration that made the game crash And then I can load that up and rerun it at normal speed and see what happ I could do that. I can run that overnight and end up with like years's fifteen seeds to investigate And usually when there's that many, there' a bunch of that are the same bug Um and I would just do that occasionally. I It catches a lot of the easy stuff really. the majority of like, the surface area. Yeahah, like they say the stuff that like You know, a bunch of humans would just run into it if they' playing through the game, right Yeah,'ll it'll very quickly catch like, oh, you put a typo in like the definition for this ability and it doesn't have them They very quickly catch that type of stuff It all catch stuff that using this ability crashes the game. It'll catch that really quickly It will take longer, but it will catch two piece combos like If you use this ability while you have this passive, it will eventually have that configuration and has that u and it can sometimes figure out some really obscure things that involve three or four piece combos. And then, you know, I just would do that every now and then and keep the game in like a stable state so that there wasn't It was never, I'd never run that overnight and get eight hundred bugs. It was always dozen or so to investigate overnight and in the month leadading up to lunch, I was doing that every single night where I would Stet it to fuzz test overnight, wake up the next morning and be like, oh, there's four that I got to investigate and fix. and kept doing that until there just weren't any el left. would It would run all night without catching it A couple of days in a row And it's not that there weren't any bugs, but it's just not That c your m is gone You know, you launch the game and a million people are playing it at the first week They're going to find more soft and than the fuzz tester could find of course. God But I don't have to fix that many in launch week. I had Baby I had maybe like eight crash bugs to fix at launch week Um incredible. No As s tonight You know, that ended up working pretty well Well, hell you get guys. I mean, like what What a success. It's just I've been having such a blast with the game. It's so much fun. and it's just so tight. Like I said, it's somehow you've made this everything game that is also like feels super tight, you know, feels really purposeful and I'm just loving it and it's clear that other people are too. So congratulations. Aazing stuff. Thank you I hope we can make it better Yeah Well actually is't this isn't the hot scoops podcast. but like what are you guys doing at the moment? Like you, you know, you are you up to anything? Youre kind of Once the dust settles on Tyler's, you know life, Um I think we'll we'll we'll work on a a little idea that we have that might It's a good problem to have, but we've been running into this problem where people say, you know, after three hundred hours, the game gets a little dull And they say it with with with such hate O they're just like see they're like you can feel the anger coming through the like screen. You think like I can't believe I thought this was Game of the Year for the first three hundred hours. But the first day like my three hundred first hour of the g. Even though it sounds even though it sounds ridiculous, it's kind of like, well,