Polishing the Game and Future Plans

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Welcome to the Game Makers Notebook, a podcast featuring a series of in-depth one-on-one conversations between game makers providing a thought, intimate perspective on the business and craft of interactive entertainment. The Game Makers Notebook is presented by the Academy of Interactive Arts and Science. mouse PI for hire. I really really love this game, been following it for quite some time and It did not let me down. The um The whole black and white rubber hose. cartoon mouse with a gun, P I thing is extremely up my alley and um I loved every minute of it. There's so much um Cool stuff in this game and I'm excited to talk to you guys. about it today. So um I'm really interested to get to know you and hear each a little bit about your career path in games and how it led to mouse PI for hire. So let's start with Mateus Michalek. So hi, I'm Mateusz Michalak. I'm CO of Umi Games. Um So You can imagine that my background is more from animation for the Last uh fifteen years I have been working animation and I had uh uh animation studio. During the Covid era. Uh It hit hard us here in Poland. So uh I decided that it would be cool to move more to games because I always wanted to make games. So we started a really small project called Galaxy Taxi. We tried to find a publisher, try to find investor for this project. It also all it also was a art driven project and We had really a lack of experience, lack of team, so it was really hard to find a proper publisher. And one day uh Michal, one of the guys at work uh at the studio came to me with uh Cool idea. To make uh Free D Two niche black and white FPS game. And Everything right now after this is legend, right? Fair enough. My name is Mateusz Lachowski. I'm the lead neurotic designer. Uh, for the most GI for high project and um I'm joined for me. Like almost two years ago now, I think. uh when the game was already at the early stage of production. And there was some groundwork plates already. Uh and um I'll just draw the two just give some structure from like the the nursing perspective. Uh Not only quite fun to do, but also quite fulfilling. Uh The whole theme of animators and game designers. uh each and every one of them was just giving the fullest two. So to make mouse what it is today. But also in terms of the story, uh Mouse is the creative child of uh Mine and uh and uh Johan Snach who's also like the second article designer team. who was like responsible for the early ideation of the project. Just that uh when we got together We managed to like crystallize it into its current form. Yeah, the narrative uh elements in the game are are so strong and there's like There's like these amazing layers. On one you have like Um The actual game story and the and the dialogue and it's very um Of the time and of the style, um, of the type of game. Um stylistically the this comes from but there is also a really large Um interesting. unique kind of commentary. uh about the world and and this kind of like interesting history of when this game takes place and There's a lot of really interesting um You know, I would I would say commentary about the world and um I definitely want to get into that, uh, for sure. But first I want to really dig into We heard a little bit like how the game kind of like came together, but like what was the real kind of origin story of of this game because It's so it's so fresh and unique. Um I'm not gonna compare it to other games that kind of use this style, but um It's just so interesting to have a game today because I I I'm primarily a first person shooter. Player love shooters. And Uh. I really feel like the the shooter genre has gotten very stale. Um, there are some great shooters out there. No doubt. But um You know, this idea where kind of every shooter is about saving humanity and saving the world and and these massively high stakes. Um You know, that just gets retread over and over and over and over again. And Getting a game like this Which A lot of people online are calling. A rubber hose boomer shooter, which I think that's actually A really great kind of description of this, even though it's very surface oriented. There's a lot going on in this game. What really what I really enjoyed the most about this game was that the You know, through the animation and the style and all of the kind of History of the look. And style of that kind of games that every uh animation and style that everyone is so used to because they've seen all the old cartoons and it's a very understood. You know, world behavior. Uh, it felt really fresh and unique and I kind of loved that the stakes were just really About a simple story. You know, it's it's not it's not like Um the fate of everything rests in You know? In your Get through twelve of of person shooter levels. This really felt Fresh. Um, it felt really fun. I loved all the elements. I mean, there's so much game design. In this in this game and It all ties in really well with the style and the narrative. So J'avoue. Let us hear how how really the the origin of the game came about and like You know, maybe that moment where you're first seeing seeing it in software where it's like th we can do this. So uh I can answer this because I was there. When everything started. Uh the origin story is Uh, recently I was thinking about this. about the beginning of the whole project, and I think that Cause Uh I didn't have any experience in game dev. Uh Game could be made. Uh could I I can't imagine that most of the game dev studios when they would see black and white FPS game boomer shooter. To an initial, they would say no. Uh We had really hard time even to find a publisher for the game. It was really hard. then when uh Michal came to me with this really small idea about the cartoonish FPS game. uh we sat together and we created the whole backbone of the project. And we had a big experience with animation. Game dev, a lot of experience in animation. So we use this experienced animation. highlight the positive elements from the g in the in the So I knew that we want want a strong story. The strong storyline is always crucial in every animation project. Also we need a strong uh artistic vision. Uh we need a hook hook viewer from the beginning. So Uh We knew that. This is something. That's it is something special, but um Then We didn't understand that we basically found a niche. uh in the whole industry. Mm. Maybe after we post our first TikTok like right, but before when we s when we worked on the first Prototype. It was Um Does it work or did or it doesn't work? We just, you know, experimented with a lot of things using sprite animations, using sprites as a weapons. And it was really fun fun time. We had really fun time. And during that time w we st we created this Uh a story backbone of the storyline. That we knew that This should be a detective. He should be a detective. It should be an war. Team? Uh because it's black and white and black and white it clicks with noir immediately. And also we knew that we want a game that uh the whole story is in nineteen thirties. Um and we know that Ninety thirty is right before the second war. And today Basically we have war. All around. We have war, yeah, we have war thousand kilometers away from Warsaw, right? uh between Ukraine and Russia and This is really m time uh uh a around the world and Connects with the Uh Nineteen thirties, nineteen forties, right before the war, right? It's it's it's it's it's really connects. And it was really Simple. For us it it clicks immediately, right? And And then we posted a really simple video TikTok. Very simple, you know, this was s uh technical video like um I don't using uh sniper rifle. And after today's we got two or three million views. Um And it was And my email floated with emails. It was, you know, it was crazy. I got thousand of emails from different people. uh journalists, publishers, investors, everyone wanted to know more about that project. And uh during the weekend I Quickly threader. For the IGN and also the Steampage. We didn't have Steampage. Yeah, uh back then you know, wish lists, um every project needs wish lists if you want to get a publisher. So we needed to Basically Uh Uh hook all the people to the to the to the Steam page to wish list the game. And then the the real work started. We knew that we need uh proper demo for the public for the publishers. So next few months, uh we it was really small team, it was four or five people. Uh we came together and we work on the demo. And we started to look for the publisher and It was crazy to get any because All the publishers they want to work uh with benchmarks. So if you if you if you will show him a project They want to see benchmarks, right? And when they saw uh black and white F uh cartoonish FPS game. They started uh that they started asking questions or even uh demand some changes in the project like Please add color, right? Or please add this. And and we thought no, we from by design this game is black and white and you want This is the USP of the game. We can't mess with this. So I mean you're highlighting you're highlighting a real huge problem in the industry with exactly what you're talking about right here because You put out something on TikTok. It got three million views. Everyone wants to know more. Publishers come knocking on your door. And then they don't want it as as it is. I mean, it's pretty funny. I mean you're you're you're you're saying It's a nineteen thirties rubber hose animation game in classic black and white with A world of mice characters. It's noir detective. Fiction. Hope. It's a boomer shooter that actually has fast. PS design. There's jazz, slapstick, crime. The old Hollywood tone. But it also has like all the modern features around like pacing, combat, UI, and progression. That is a That is a a healthy package to pose as a game. Um and Publisher. Including A moment of virality. And um I'm both surprised and not surprised. that you had A hard time. Getting there. I have to say I do know the folks at Playside and did make a good choice there. So The whole industry is not in a healthy state. Even today. It wasn't back then and even today. And It's really really challeng challenging, uh, to find publisher, right publisher. And I believe that we find the right publisher play site. Uh They did a tremendous job. Uh they They Um they did Great stuff and uh Without them this project. be in totally different state. That's the sign of a great publisher, a great partnership. So tell us a little bit about um The major influences and inspirations. for mouse PI. So uh from the animation perspective is the whole rubber hose era. It's really a white era. It's price from the nineteen nineteen tens to nineteen fifties basically. And for sure we watched a lot of different uh series. Um I perfectly remember that I saw all the Pope the Sailor episodes. It's a lot. It's fifty two, I believe. Uh so Papay the seller is really really good reference. Uh it was really good reference for the most project. all the bit Betty Boo and uh Flash animations Everything. Uh we saw a lot of things, even things that it that that are really hard to find on the internet. Most of the And most of the T V series or uh uh um the short animations from that era. are really hard to get anywhere uh anywhere. Mm because of their uh violence. They're all quite violent. And also topics that they try to uh talk about. We can't we can't we can't tell even today they are quite cruel. Uh But we saw a lot of them. Uh from the narrative perspective, I think that it's that question f more for the Mateusz Lehovsky, but For me personally, when I thought about from the from the beginning from the storyline, it's like who framed the um uh Roger Rabbit. This is uh a really important uh movie. And uh Um From the game perspective. I like old school uh Doom Quake uh games because I think that modern FPS games they They stand on on only one rule to give you as much dopamine as they can. And it's really flashy. And I don't like this kind of stuff, you know. I I'm I'm I'm old gamer, old schooler, so I like uh Doom, I like Quake. And uh We Some some parts of the old school uh FPS games um we took and we put to the mouse in the mobs. Clearly. I mean there is a purity. in this game that um Doom and Quake. I think Quake One specifically. Which also happens to be my favorite. Game of all time. Um And uh you can feel it in the way the game plays. There's a I mean, all shooters have their own gameplay feel signature. And I think that this game That is actually built in mechanically and technically, but it also benefits from the style. And the setting. Um For example. In our case it's especially noticeable. 'Cause I mean you being like a short official yourself. N I'm sure quite aware that There's a lot of that goes to and making that the the the moment of when when you're firing a gun like feel all right. Like the gesture. It's like the sound design. It's like the design of the weapon, like from the ground sound, but it how it's s how it looks, what's how it's animated, the timing of it and Excellent. Yeah. So Even that mouse is like Fully. Animated by hands. It's just gonna even the weapons are sprite animations. There's um real challenge in making it feel Just right. to just speak for itself in terms of how it looks and what kind of a animation stuff it sells. Uh but then again, should be enough for you to This no like satisfaction of just blowing somebody's heads off. Um I think we landed. Just Right on s uh on on the money here. Uh yeah, me thank you. I was just like, you know True fifty cents in it. Um Yeah, and um I j just wanted to add one thing into respirations because it that's a funny story that always comes to mind, uh Whenever we're talking about the origins of mouse, which is Um Michel Rostag, who I was mentioned before. our lead animator and and arts director. There's there's like this story almost like like a passage from some book. Mihal just cla scale the mountain and uh came upon a concept art of BioShock just did in a rubber horse style. Yeah. We just triggered some chem chemistry in his brain and that that was the origin story of uh visual style of most came to be. Uh and uh well th there's there's there's truth to it. But uh There's one name I'd like to mention. Something I've also been talking to Michael. There's actually a Polish animator. who was working in a rubber hostile, whose uh named uh Płodziwieżkowańko. Uh Just his life story just maybe that he aside from a couple of projects related to Pont Vardovski, they didn't manage to Like get any recognition. Uh but uh I know that was a really strong influence on me held too. Probably there's a in mouse's DNA some Like at this percentage of uh of early polished like attempts um uh at making uh early rubber hostile animation. That's amazing. That is that is that is a cool story. Um I wanted to go back to uh when you guys were talking about um Yeah, the the intentionality around like Everything in a shooter. Um You know, there there's a lot of like in modern shooters there's a lot of fetishization of reload animations. Uh and things like that. And I just have to say like I really appreciated the way that you guys handled those. Also Um The style of the rubber hose animation really into those. So they felt really like Felt really natural. Even when you're like Okay, I'm a mouse with this weird kind of like particle ray gun from the nineteen thirties. And and it's the way I'm reloading and the way the gun has. personality is it's the hallmark of a great shooter. And I just really wanted to say well done on Getting those Just the way the guns move and feel, not necess the shooting was great too. The way behave in the hands of the character and within the world. were a plus for me. Um I really Really thought that it was Super nice and You know What else is interesting about this game? There's so many interesting things. I am usually not a fan of platforming. And In shooters. And I loved it. in this game. And I think it was interesting because kind of made me feel like I wasn't playing a shooter. While I was doing it and it was like Moving in and out of these two styles in a really interesting way. Um And the way that the character feels natural grappling and jumping and double jumping and the way it feels like Even the stinks of those things were much different. I find myself playing modern shooters. Where I've got a like There's thirty guys shooting at me with different types of weapons and it's a whole massive scene. And I also have to carefully platform this thing and um I really enjoyed the way you guys put together part and weaved in the encounters when they were necessary and left them out. when they weren't because the platforming is actually fun in this game. And using all those world mechanics is is really cool. Um, I wonder like You know, how did you guys Balance that kind of like mechanic and world design so that it felt so natural and true, but also Modern and fresh. Very hard to do. There's a lot of coming from like How really Um like conceptualization of the pacing of the game. uh which uh it being a boomer shooter there's like certain expectations of it being like high stakes, high speeds chase with the when you're running and gunning and Just not remember what what's happening around it. And um Um early stages of of of ideation. We knew that This being like a detective esque and we'd like to s we we we'd like to call it like detective detective detective like experience, not necessarily detective simulator. Um uh and that was also a like a deriv uh deliberate decision, but we we can get back to it uh later. But just thinking of like uh pacing wise, every uh every single part of the game. There should be some kind of a breeding room in between arenas. Because uh I mean if you fed the same thing over and over, it gets You you you you're uh losing the taste for it. And likely we have team of little designers and our game designer who was just a uh like uh also completing like uh owning the idea of uh how um now those arenas should be interspersed with with the platforming sections uh in what way and on which levels we should unlock certain movement abilities. Always have. When you were getting a little impatient that nothing new happened. Quite some time in the game. There's still a thing that we can just toss you in to just spice things up. whether with being a new platforming ability or new section that we would haven't used like the abilities you currently have yet. Or just uh a story point that breaks the pace just a little bit. On the d so uh every level. Has that. Um In a very deliberate manner. Designed to be Um also assisting the story that's that's that's being told over it. Um but even without it, uh when we're playing the il versions of the levels, uh the idea was to Always make sure that you're not getting overwhelmed by the saminess of the experience. So Well I I think you guys actually really achieved that because there is a A very um There's a really great balance between kind of like the fast combat and the slower investigation type systems and the the things that you have to do there. And it it feels really Yeah, you keep bringing up pacing, like the pacing is really really good in that and it has a um Some very Um really nice ways of slowing it down and kind of soaking up the world and the story before you jump back into the action and I actually found myself thinking about the first years of war, um a little bit. And I'll I'll tell you why. Um You know. That game Famous for These slower walking sections where um where there was no combat and you were going to the next place and that's when the characters really We're kind of like delving deep into the story and um I I found myself appreciating attention. to detail in this game as well. Because there's there's so many different things like Mechanically. In this game, you guys brought so many things to the table. Blue board. all the card and the collectibles and and the blueprints and the upgrading, the comics. Oh my God, the comics were so great. Um You know, the journal, the newspaper clippings, all the upgrades and the schematics. Tons of secrets. In here. The office hub. I have to tell you, um Earlier in my career I made a game in this style for PlayStation uh called calling all cars. And it was like Driving These little cars around that in the in this kind of style. It wasn't NBA jams with cars. It was kind of fun. Anyways, I really appreciated the The map and driving around the map. Car. And so what I'm trying to get at is like This way more than a boomer shooter. This is like a much bigger game and it's so impressive for You guys As a studio This is your first game. It's like Unbelievable. Achement. And there's there's just like You know? There's a lot here for players. Grab onto. And one thing I did notice when I was playing is that My wife and my daughter. would like walk by And we would stop. And then they would sit on the couch. And then like an hour would go by and they're invested in what I'm doing. Because They have seen all these cartoons and everyone's familiar with this style. It's almost like a A universal and recognition of of the rubber hose and That kind of nineteen thirty stuff. And It was just really interesting watching Them watching me play because They they got into it. They got into the story. Jump here, Dad, like all this kind of stuff. And it was it was really fun and interesting experience. And I think that Um You guys kind of concocted this whole stew of things that seem impossible to put together, but it it works so well. Uh funny it should mention Gears of War because what I was thinking like couple of minutes ago, uh when you were t when you were releasing the the kind of shooters, uh still excited you, uh entry. entry points to to the genre. Is uh w while we m maybe use the term boomer shooter, but the one talking about mouse. It's main because it's easy to like it's the uh easy tack to latch onto this project. Simply because how the like the bite sized arena gameplay feels and whenever we show whenever we manage to show some kind of kind of piece of it, uh in some media coverage uh before the launch. probably the third thing that comes to mind. Even because you know, you're hip shooting. That there's a specific like the type of What them um uh grab that that. is tied to this and this kind of a shooters, but in mouse DNA there's still a lot of that's kind of a Xbox Xbox three six, T P S three kind of era of shooters, like Especially like this of force, Halo's and and yeah, the the this the covenus kind of a story driven shooters with yeah, like like interspersed kind of a Not only like this uh storytelling mechanics, but uh a different kind of a Some that things that break up the pace of the game. And uh I think that was something that like Uh like s uh sub subconsciously. We were trying to convey. uh while while trying to like Design. the whole progression of the game. Uh so so Just who does on that's a really apt observation. I think while calling the game one name we are still thinking about that as something different being like Deep like a deeper tissue of it. And uh The um The kind of You know. the genre of of Boomer Shooter like belongs there, but it but it is it is so much more Than that. In my opinion. Um I totally agree with you. I wanna have enough time to um talk about narrative, design, story. So let's Let's shift into that a little bit. So This Great character Jack Pepper. This Boiled. P. series of connected cases around Mouseburg. And It's so great. I mean The narrative is really strong, the design angle, the how it mixes. Um kind of cartoon absurdity. With the no noir ingredients. You know, it's got disappearance, corruption. Minority persecution, organized crime. Political conspiracy. Cover ups, guilt, trauma, like it's all it's got all the great noir stuff. plus which is again seems like we c keep coming back to this with With this game, it's like This This is the vehicle, but it's actually So much more. So um I really want to talk about the narrative design there because I really love the story. I'm a huge noir. reader, I read a lot of noir. Um It's my favorite genre to read. I live in Los Angeles, so it's like Blood here. James Elroy. I'm always I'm always stopping in my tracks when there's noir stuff and and this was like You know, I think under the kind of absurdity of the rubber hose stuff, there is a very Powerful. Tell me about how that all happened and and Honestly. Kudos to to saying something about The world. U underneath this kind of like Trojan horse of fun kind of nineteen thirties animation style. So uh One little disclaimer. Uh Yeah like before before it gets uh like to the thick of it. Is that while we were aiming to maybe say something about the times that we live in. To some extent. And while these dreams we wouldn't like expect to be so accurate in predicting how it would turn out like two years later in development. So uh we we were maybe like We had some. abity to to uh looking at the future but uh It's still kind of surprising. Uh but yeah, but as Mateus said, there are a lot of inspirations in terms of like literature and film and games that's actually lean heavier into the storytelling within games. The actual Difficult maybe. Yeah. Whiping up the star like that. In a game that's uh on the on the face of it is a boomer shooter. is how to write a story that fits the style that we're aiming for and doesn't get in the into the way of the gameplay. Oh which I mean that that was like the goal that we set for ourselves from the from the very beginning. Is then just let the player play the game. For as long as uh as it's necessary. And just break the pace whenever we feel that it enhances the experience. Uh Which actually turned out to be like the the baseline of the decision on introducing the hub zone, I mean the the PI office um to that you visit in. in between levels rather than just do a string of levels, which is like more of a typical approach in boomer shooters. Um the overworld map that gives you a sense of scale of the place still within kind of a no, you know. Tunzy. uh kind of a style of for building that when ep everything is on top of one another of another, but still gives you like a sense of place. Uh so whenever you land in in a particular level With a case to solve. quite aware how is it related to all to all other stuff, even without like getting into the thick of things with the story. Like in terms of mm, inspirations uh So I I think I didn't manage to to just lay that out. Aside from uh Mateo's mentioned, which like friend Roger Rabbit is such like one of the biggest inspirations for us. Like There is a gun in the game. That's totally not inspired by what happens in that movie. Um speaking about the our the Varnish, which which is like heavily inspired by You know what? Yeah. Yeah, and um Uh but other than that, I mean, aside from your um chandlers, your Hammett's um like the classics of of normal literature. Um we In terms of visuals, we were inspired a little bit, but Black Sat uh We wanna but uh something not maybe not that that that doesn't like come true. in a specifically strong way, is that one of the biggest intuitions for us in terms of the tone of the game, aside from like the subjects and topics that we cover in the game. was actually the Night Gun series. police squad and you know I mean, Jack is a bit of a Frank Drebin at times. then things just fire his head and he's no idea what's what anybody's talking about. To him. Especially when there's like something heavy. Uh which actually turned out to be Like an like a neat narrative device for us. to Be able to Put a little more pressure whenever we need. on uh like the heavy remands of the story. And just let loose a little bit when Like they needed a like a relief of something of o of some kind. And Dan's actually w whenever like when when we came up with this uh this yeah, let's make him a frank drab in just like cheesy thing. Uh and um uh case solving front actually case solving frunk driving that like unlike What he does in his movies. Um That was like Like we found a lockpick to to to a certain idea that uh that actually turned out to be the mouse that you'll you'll you'll we've got to play. Um Yeah, and um Um I don't I was I was a Um I've started working from against like two two two years ago, which uh there was already some work done. on the story like the groundwork that was laid down by Johan Snoch, who's like my partner in crime, like the other narrative designer in film and games. Uh so the idea that there should be three cases to solve and they probably should lean into the The A little bit of a tropiness of the genre. even more hard like sh har even more hard by the genre than noir specifically. But like The idea was to Take it. As a whole. without just trying to be like too I mean Um The idea was to to take those tropes. And just squeeze them out to the fullest. Just try not to even to try to hide what you're trying to do. Because as you mentioned, like the three the other cases that Jack has to solve. Is uh uh like the kidnappings of the major uh uh of oppressed minority. A fanfatale comes in and says things that like make your tail spin. And um Uh and the third one is uh yeah, there's a personal story that turns out to be like this great uh conspiracy. Which is the missing magician's case. And um the fun part of it was all right, so how to how do we like intertwine all those little elements of the story? while laying down the clues uh uh along the way for the player to find. So it still feels like a kind of a mystery while not necessarily trying to hide. something too hard for the player. And yeah, that was a like the bulk of our work aside from just writing down the script was laying down the the kind of a concept of of and an outline and and uh uh uh and the the particular flow chart of how the game should be played. um what kind of a level progression would we have and uh uh how do those levels relate to each other, what kind of what piece of a story or what piece of a mystery is r uh revealed in um each stop uh whenever you whenever there's there comes the the the very moment that you mentioned that the investigative moment. And uh Is it All does it always have to be on the pavement? Or should we just let the player think that they figured it out a little bit, just a couple of seconds. Before actually telling them what's happened. So uh one of I mean one of a There's no limit of that. I mean just uh Just uh Place uh strategically Actual reveals. Uh which are Lyric. and the layer on top of each other, uh by those moments where the player is the one who gets to figure out something first. Um yeah. But from I mean I mentioned I think I call the game a detective like experience rather than um a detective um uh uh simulator. Because that's one uh that was one of the things that we were trying to One of the pitfalls we're we were trying not to fall into. Which would be breaking the pace of the game by adding like a full um You figure it out the player. uh kind of a gameplay to the corporate part of uh of visiting camera. There were I don't think that would have worked on seven different prototypes of how it should work. There was some the more involved ones. There were kind of even less involved ones that than the the one landed in the in the game. Ultimately. Uh like settle down. I mean uh the the uh Jag is the one. Well that's too that's too. And the player is the one who just makes the action of actually resolving the uh the clue. And uh or resolving the lead, rather. Uh so that way you have this moment of Getting back. Quiet office. Uh, just uh picking up a cheese steak. and just doing some thinking in front of the coverboard, but it takes actually a couple of seconds. Maybe a minute if you Actually Uh um uh keep it up to s uh keep it keep up to speed with the story and maybe read the clue descriptions. But then you get to, you know, get back to into the thick of it. You just get to talk to to an N P C who is the handler. And then just venture off into the next uh uh next stop on your um on your um on your path to solving the case. Uh in time because I can do it for for proverb. I I love listening to this stuff. I mean that's that prior here, people aren't aren't tuning in to listen to me. Um Ting in like No one's tuning into this, but I'm still stuck in in your game world. Read that that was our goal. So as you're saying. Um, so what one of the things like that's really Awesome. In this game is like the balance in the narrative and the dialogue between The cartoon style and classic noir. Like noir is dark, right? It's about people on the edge of everything, right? And and tr just trying to like You know. Escape something. Whether it's you know. Anything. Like but always by the skin of their teeth and it's and it's There's a real One of the reasons that people like noir is because It's escapism and you're reading this and going, Man I'm sure glad that's not me. And you there's kind of like a voyeuristic into the lives of of Like I said, people on the edge. And like There's such a great Um, I'm so glad you mentioned police squad. I'm so glad because that is like I hadn't kind of put that together. And and when you said it, it like a lot of stuff. For me. Um But you know You're telling these stories in the game and and some of them are light, but there's always this Noir undertone. Balancing it with stuff like Dialogue like I'm not your buddy, pal. Like that's just like. That makes so much sense with the the things that you're putting together. And I just I really I'm really interested in how you balanced Tone because just right. Like like it's so easy to go so over the top with noir. And it's it's like It's almost like Intoxicating how easy it is to like She was a dame. I was a man on the edge, you know, stuff like that. Like yeah, it's so easy to do that and you didn't do it. And you it's like It's like um The way that you've approached Mixing the two was just So perfectly balanced in my opinion. So first of all, I'm really glad that you find it enjoyable. 'Cause uh it wasn't actually an easy task to just nail The actual tone that we At the very beginning we weren't. We weren't Like one hundred percent sure. what Jack's voice should be, but that's actually something that I need to like hand over to to Joachim. Um And the narrative design I mentioned. Who not only coins Jack's name which is like And on the face of it is one of the greatest puns in the whole game. It's so it's so great. And it's so dumb. I mean One of the things that we agreed on, like very early in the process is This should be the thing should be a little stupid. In terms of humor. I mean uh No pulling punches in terms of how down the craxes can get. So if that's our baseline. Don't it can just veer off into the more serious part of what the hard boil and new new genres are. Without losing that baseline, uh Which Like When when you get to let me I mean, if you if you take a hard look at what the game looks like. There's this idea that uh it's pr like prevailing idea in in in animation that somehow, even though they don't necessarily express that, but the characters in the animation are kind of aware that there are animated characters in the main and in an animated uh Uh world. So the fact that Jack can easily jump between being this hard boiled you know, chisti chewing detective to like somebody who doesn't even know what's what's being spoken to him. It's kind of a Gift. Uh that's the art style I presented us with. Uh, it's simply because the marriage of what we say in the game and how the game is presented is so like closely related to each other. It's because of that. It's the same thing with actually uh Roger Rabbit. Uh it's the they uh even though the tone in the the movie is completely different from from Miles, like there's the same there's the same idea that Somebody uh in this world decide that cartoon characters and and real people live together in the same streets. And that is like nobody questions it. So it's the the the it's the same idea in Laos, that nobody questions the fact that this whole thing is a little silly. Which is why they are feeling some uh that wh wh why there there's a sense of believability and like honesty. to how those characters speak to each other. Even when they get a little I don't know, a little silly. Jack is like the J Ju J Jack is just the the the perfect conduit. Between more serious characters than and the more the the the more Um The more crazy ones. uh in how he's the connective tissue between like those two words of uh those those words of comedy. And uh yeah, and the the Drebinesque uh like the Dr the whole Drebinesque approach. uh to to whojack it really is and how what kind of a detective he is. That was gonna that was something that just unlocked us uh in in What kind of world it should be. And uh I mean I will be the first uh one to to admit that there are a crazy stupid lines in this game. Which some of it some of which I I'll touch. Uh but then again uh Just this kind of a self awareness of both the world. Characters in it. That's This whole thing is little like the the end is this whole thing is little silly. So why not take it? Like seriously as hell. Right. Which is actually like I think that that sentence that sentence perfectly encompasses our approach to How But I don't think the game was written. Aside from the the whole intertextual banana that that when I'm just refereing referencing things that reference other things. Uh and it w like the need to quoting the movies of the era, but also like other pieces of uh of media from from uh From different uh uh walks of life, uh from movies, from games and so on. The game is full of it. Only because it doesn't take it so seriously, it kind of works. Yeah, and I think um I think that's a great Please Um Talk about Troy's performance and how he brought it up. all that to life. Um, first of all. How did Troy get involved? I mean, you you guys You have Arguably the talent of the generation, the performer, um Troy's been on this podcast multiple times. Um, his work is incredible across bunch of different stuff. And when I heard that he was doing this, I was like Okay. I'm interested. My interest was as high as it could get before Now it's even somehow More How did that happen? And Then I wanna talk about like What was it like working with him? Like how did he help shape these things and You know That was a huge Your first game. on a weird boomer shooter that's you know. Black and white. I think the you know, the whole thing like How did that happen? Because it' It worked so well. This is actually a great like I mean the two forces meet each other, one being Troy's like uh endless curiosity about the the the the industry. And his willingness to take a to take part in Even less like On the face of it, even less the uh Impressive uh endeavors. And actually our publishers play sights efforts to just get them. So And Yeah, th that that's actually well well I I think without uh without those guys without players and I I don't think uh Wait, hold on. Were you were did you guys You wanted him for this, like that he was what you had in mind? Uh yeah, of course. I mean uh There's I I mean the the the the one of the axioms of working in this industry industry is uh that whenever you're thinking of voiceovers you always think of Roy Baker. To some extent. Hard to get around that. Yeah, yeah. But um uh Knowing his work and playing his the games that he's in. uh for so long and like watching him like develop over the years. Like we had zero doubt that he can pull off a comedic comedic version of the kind of characters that he already did before. And um he was also and when I get to like talk to him for the first time, he expresses such like Interesting in Mouse and he was like Like the fun that we didn't know had. And um from the very beginning he just when I when I get to talk characters and bios and and and world building just to to to um give him some context of What is the kind of a tone that we try to reach. he was like hooked on it almost immediately and started trying his own ideas on how to approach certain things. The voice of Jack Pepper. is uh something that we are thinking of, like him being this graph Rust people is the uh like t the detective in the past. Real hard boy type. Uh, but uh it was Troy who just like brought it home by giving him this little like uh a Brooklyn esque twang. At a certain certain words, center of verbs, uh in this kind of vernacular that he b that he basic basically came up with. So so uh I mean without him Jack n not only wouldn't have his voice, but wouldn't even sound The way he sounds right now. Uh so kudos to him and um Over a over a a large number of sessions that uh the recording sessions that we attended with him. Uh, he proved to be just a swell guy to work with. I mean He he's he he's a real lovely guy who always like things of uh Not only like has his own ideas of that are like grounded in his experience. uh but also like takes very like very Lang. Um Very Strong that gives a strong attention to what we really want. The scene. In terms of the emotions of it. Uh and how tonally it should land. So uh There's working with him is it's a nice like a push and pull in between Cool ideas coming from both sides. So there's like this tendency to just cr crystallise a particular idea into its best possible form. Which uh Ultimately, uh A real Great. Like the headliner in in in the game. Uh. So I I Then when I'm kind of like get back to like I mean when I think back to to draw recording sessions, then there was a so much it was so much fun. We had s so many laughs. I mean, given the script sc what what the script is. I mean you c you can't take it seriously for for more than an hour. You just You you need to just break into Crazy laughter a while ago. Because of h of how silly some of those lines are. And when when we were talking I mean he immediately he immediately launched onto the idea of playing Frank Drabin but in mouse version. Uh I think that was That's that that's what like sold. Paper to King as a character that actually has personality and and and can so represent something different. both in in his own career. He uh his performance in this game I mean he he definitely did the like Noir delivery, but without parity. You know, like It it was taken seriously. I mean Again. I'm gonna be smacking my head into the wall. after we were done recording this for like somehow police squad just like escaped me when I was playing this. Even though like I have every episode of Police Squad. It is It's kind of a genius thing, but he actually He, when I think back about it now, knowing that, it's like he really did nail that. that Frank Drebin like Almost like completely oblivious to the absurdity that's happening. around him and he's just kind of like Playing it straight in a in a weird way. And how Quickly did did you guys get to the performance. Was it kind of like instantaneous or did it take a minute to get there? I think it was in like an half an hour of talking about the game. Then he just recorded the the very first monologue in the game. The opening uh crawl. uh in the cutscene when Jack just rolls through Mars Mouse brook and and gives out his uh line uh uh sunfalls still not begin in the sky. It was like the first attempt at recording this was just the pure gold and then he even made it better. So That was our initial experience of working with them. So I must say I mean in e i each kind of a recording session has its ups and downs, but we would throw it to Mostly apps and especially like speaking to the drabiness. Uh I must like give him props for coming and I'm like I've leaving at least like a half a dozen or or more Of those like crystal clear drebdesk lines. Because he's such a fan. Police squad and I could go. that he was able to channel it like we we had a line written. And it sounded kind of a dreading like. But Troy said, How about we do it like this and just Whipped out the line that is like. Thousand ten times more. Balm and Rabinesque. Not even we like can up. So uh he really added his two cents still. to who chuck pepper is in that uh in those terms. Um and um I'm That was a real experience. And I mean we're talking uh I uh uh we're talking about Troy a lot here, but I must say that our whole cast was just wonderful to work with. Absolutely. Like That was the next thing I was gonna say was like You got the big dog, but man, the the whole cast. really firing on all the right cylinders. And I I would imagine that It was the same for all the other actors and performers. Like it is probably pretty easy to jump right into this because they understood the assignment, I'm sure. Oh yes, it uh in nearly every case it was like uh I'm just laying down who the character is. They already know the bios. We just adjust the uh a bunch of knobs here and there to just get to the right tone, especially whenever we we get this in into some kind of weird vernaculars that we use in the game. The mice and all rodents that live in in the wetlands area are speaking in a kind of a Cajun Uh, which is like the also inspired by like the popularity of it in in in the late in in the recent days. Uh so whenever we got like got into that, that was like that needed some adjustments here and there. But that's given. Whenever you whenever you ask for something weird. You need to know how to s like tell tell those people how to reach to the kind of a weirdness that looking for. So that's a mass. And then. in those terms like just working with every single uh of our actors was wonderful, especially like uh Uh not to just lift somebody out, but uh Yeah, Frank Todaro was playing Cornelius Steelton or uh or uh Deborah Wilson was playing the old uh shrew lady, the the witch from from from the swamps. Uh Florian Clare who's playing Wanda. Um Or uh Feta Tasher who's playing couple of characters actually, but m mainly his being John Brown, uh This kind of a down to air guy. Which is not usual his usual assignments. His usually is the like uh Fred Tata Shor usually plays kind of a Sold Soldier seventy six kind of types of craft. Shoty Shoty. uh kind of character. So that was uh Something uh he th in his words that was something new to him. At least something fresh, maybe no, not something new, but that that's he he like did like that w hundred thousand characters probably in in the last Twelve minutes. But um Yeah. Uh like I have so such fond memories from basically every recording session that we attended. Or direct it's uh And uh there's even a very specific conversation that uh I can't pinpoint which one it is. But uh uh when we recorded Cornelius Silton with Frank. Uh he asked us To start the recording. uh with recording this very particular little dial dialogue. Uh that goes between tag and uh and he uh and Cornelius Steelton his character. Because with he was so enamored with How those characters come across. Through all those lines of dialogue. It just gave him all the information he needed to build stilton into what uh into who he is in the game. This notary kind of the Trustworthy. Still a politician kind of a guy. So Even though he visits the city places has has a history with Jack. There's a bit of a disconnect between those two. Simply by the fact they come from very different walks of life. Uh and the war was was the point that Uh-huh. And there. Like on the other w under side of it, as friends But I hope really sincerely that It is and it comes across in the game. There is some kind of a disconnect between them. Those are the details that we try to highlight both in the recording session and when we were writing dialogue that uh these are the things, those the little things that make mice human. Yeah it it Eric, well done. I mean. You guys knock that out of the park. Um, I also wanted to point out that We haven't talked about Young Frankenstein, but I I appreciated Igor. Uh Immensely. Um I wanna I wanna move over to Mateos number one. And talk about um You know? So we've We've got this great concept. People are are excited about this thing. We're building this great game. We got Troy Baker. Everything's lining up for for this thing, but now we got to finish it. We gotta ship it and we gotta get it into The hands of the players. Um I would imagine having made several billi myself at this point. Um You know, you get to a point near the end of the project where you start and like, Okay, we have to kinda stop now. And polish these things and really bring the experience home as a whole. Um, what was that like and How did um Playside, your publisher, figure. figure into helping you guys get this across the finish line. Yes, I think that a lot of people forget about special ingredient in game dev. It's the team, the people behind the The game Um When we started expanding the team I think that Most or even all the people they wanted to work on this game. They wanted to part of the whole process. They like the pr the the the concept, they like the demo, they liked everything about the game. And they even some part of partial of uh themselves into the game. That's why we have a lot of different elements in the game. It it was like more democratic process. Uh um for the whole development uh um uh timeline. uh when we don't a lot of play tests uh in the team. Everyone can share their thoughts. Uh that's why a lot of elements are Ballance Well. But As you mentioned, there is a time When someone needs to say stop. To finish the game, we need to start polishing all the elements, all the features. Content log And we had uh and we need to go uh aim ahead to the to the release date. And During that time, you know, it's it's For me personally it was really stressful time. 'Cause you as a creator or developer, you don't know piece that you're working on. It's in the in the good spot. is if this is a good game. It's it's like you need always more time to polish things, you need more things to add new features, more time to add new features. And I remember it was I believe uh I remember it was late January when we said stop. uh we shot we should stop adding uh new features. We start we should start and polishing everything. Uh During that time we had Mock reviews, playtests. And believe me. They weren't so Positive. uh back then uh as it were during the uh release or when embargo went down and we got this uh reviewer score. During this January, February period It was quite it was like Uh Positive? And Uh but we knew that we needed to finish the game, right? Uh because people were waiting for months for the game. The whole marketing Process was Strange. It was not normal. Because no, in the in the industry basically you want to show the trailer, the launch tra the trailer at least uh half uh a year before the release, right? You y y you need to build the build the expectations. the hype around the game and then you release the game. And we build the hype around the game. Two and a half years before the release. And it was quite challenging. to basically create all the marketing bits. Right before the release. Still a new elements in the trailers. During the release pee p people are uh stunned that the game is different. It it consumed more elements that we showed uh in the trailers. Shown al already in trailers. So Uh when we stopped working on the game uh on adding features in January. Mm. Initial date was uh nineteenth of March. And we wanted to not release the date of March. And we are aiming for this date. But Uh It's basically it's uh in the project. And during that date, the Crimson Desert uh game uh was also released releasing. And we knew uh weeks before That they will smash us. to be we will not get any visibility during that period. So not even the same player base. Like This is gonna crush it. Yeah. Exactly. And So we decided to move the premier three weeks uh into the future is uh or even four weeks, it's sixteenth of April. And the whole week was empty for us and we thought oh great, we have four weeks more for of the polishing uh and and uh and uh fixing bugs and we th and we don't Team does done a tremendous job to fix all the bugs. And suddenly Uh Prag Pragmata came on Friday. And we intro two days before. And Everyone thought that uh This one this was one of the toughest weeks. Uh for releasing a game. And We but we released the the game and uh I believe we learned. We learned that pretty well. I would say so. I would say um The reviews are spectacular. The game is spectacular, you guys. Pulled off something that Not many people have done. Um I don't know how as a studio like you guys have set the bar so high, like whatever you're gonna do next. I mean, Godspeed. Because You gotta beat this game. Um None of that would ha would have happened. without the amazing team that we have. And while it is true that it's the first Like a big release of filmic games second reality. We have like a bunch of really experienced animators and the people from the games of Side Google are things that have plenty of projects behind their backs and and then uh several years of experience. So while uh while under the same like this our this is our first big uh success that came from the under the same umbrella. There's a lot of experience that got into it. And love heart also. Yeah. Above animation, game design, level design, everybody just From the depths of their heart in it. Yeah, you can tell. Everyone who worked on this game. their whole career and life experience. into what they put into this particular Um And And when I say, you know, your first game, what I'm saying is like It's so hard to build a great team and build a great game and do it. As well as you did. The first time. It's it's quite quite The old saying is like every Every game that ships is a miracle. And and that that is um Especially true with this game, but not how Um Not how the saying goes. It's a miracle because it's amazing that this thing exists. I loved it. I know um quite a few people, my friends, who are playing it. And everyone has Nothing but Great things to say. And I'm so glad that we got to Um get together and talk about it. Today. I have to ask before we go. Is there more coming? Do we get more? Mm. Yeah, there is the DLC. For sure. Great. Yeah. It would be a shame that we w we won't work more uh on the whole IP. Let's say. I agree. And there's an endless amount of things you could do. So I for one, um Huge fans of your studio now. Huge fan of the game. I really appreciate you guys. Talking um about the experience of making this thing 'cause Main games are hard. And what you guys pulled off is really great. And I truly applaud you for Um doing something really unique and really original. It's like It's so it's so necessary and needed. in games right now. And um I wish you guys all the success. game and I can't wait for that DLC. Thank you so much for your coming words. Thank you for joining us for the GameMakers Notebook. For more information on the Academy of Interactive Arts and Sciences, our podcasts, and our other initiatives, please visit www.interactive.org.