The Necessity of Grassroots Leadership

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I mean The one thing that we know is that the Republican Party's brand is fear And they have to constantly churn what they want people to be afraid of, to be afraid of socialists, to be afraid of immigrants, to be afraid of women, to be afraid of they constantly want Americans in fear of somebody. Because if you are not afraid of someone who is your neighbor, you're going to realize who's actually pickpcketing you And that is the large corporations that are engaged in profiteering and jacking up your prices for no good reason. It's going to be in this administration that is engaged in record levels of swindling, thefts, tariffs U, you know, your housing And so this is kind of their new thing of the day, but I think that people are feared out. I think that the nerve are everyone's nerves are shot and constantly being taught and told of what country person community to be afraid of And they just want a solution. They want their groceries to be more affordable They want to figure out how we're going to get healthcare They want our housing to get under control And I think that we're ready for an affirmative vision And we're ready for an affirmative agenda Welcome to Gasline Nation. I am your host, Andrea Chilupa, a journalist and filmmaker and the writer and producer of the journalistic thriller Mr. Jones The film the Kremlin doesn't want you to see, so be sure to watch it. And this week we are joined by the author of the new best selling book that Gaslt Nation listeners have recommended to me, a resistance history of the United States. Welcome to Gasolin Nation Tad. Thank you, I sincerely appreciate it. All right, so it is the two hundred fiftieth anniversary of our country We are at the same time hosting the World Cup The next Here in New York City where I've been for twenty years, raised by two New Yorkers have won the championship of basketball. case I need to remind everyone female president, first South Asian president in the history of our country. Life is never I feel like I'm living the dream. I'm just gonna pinch myself. And the world is just flooding to America because it is the place to be. Now, tell us Tad in the history of our country How common is Donald Trump throughout the two hundred and fifty year history. And how common is what we saw in Minnesota in reaction to the Trumps? throughout our history. It depends on what you mean by how common. If you're talking about a rapacious executive. I don't think it's all that uncommonable I think that it's the kind of thing that the antif federalists warn about. It's the kind of it's one of the main critiques they had of the Constitution in the first place. They said The doubt safeguards gets in the hand of a demague. There is no way to really stop them. Your checks and balances aren't worth what they are on paper And u and the steady accretion of power to the executive branch is sort of Pceeded at pace ever since. So I think that when you have people like who have their own interests before that of the country. I think that's a It's an interesting standard to use. That's assuming that We have had noble presidents all through But I think when you get to those who have been more complete about using Let's put it this way, using the office to in fact directly further their personal interests U I think that is where it has been uncommon. Not somebody who's like using power for power's sake or using it for purposes other than the peopleop's I think that when we're talking about that, I think that's happened fairly regularly in American history I think that when it comes to presidents who are using it to serve their own personal purposes. I think therefore there we can narrow it down to to a couple. I think that in terms of kind of direct personersal financial gain to which they're putting the putting the office. Trump, in that sense, I think he's in a he's in a class of one Really? It's not like he's fueled Andrew Jonson is fueled by racism. U Richard Nixon fueled by arrogance U Andrew Johnson f, I mean, Andrew Jackson fueled by both racism and arrogance U George Washington fueled by by his own sense of purpose, you know, those are kind of like other factors, but in terms of just Rank grasping Slf enrichment Donald Trump's got to be in in just drifting in a room and just in a room of his own. I think he really does He really is setting a new standard for that. And so That's a I know get the emoluments clause but you got to have somebody there to enforce it. So I think that in that sense in terms of just blatantly using all of the tools, all of the tools, the entire arsenal of authority at the executive's disposal just to directlyich enrich oneself and one's family he might be in a class of his own in terms of want to be authoritarans anywhere, much less an Americanist And then when you talk about Minnesota, So are you talking about Minneapolis Yeah, in terms of the So for me, my own understanding with American, you know, America founded of racism and the genocide of Native Americans, that there are plenty of Trumps out there. There plenty of Trumps out there.. George Washington set the standard at the very beginning of using of misusing the the office of the presidency for his own personal gain. I mean, that that's what the story of Oonna Judge is all about. He ordered The seecretary of the Treasury to go after her. He ordered he ordered treasury agents to go after her. He ordered them to go ahead and violate even the Fugitive slave Act that he signed in order to return his property. I that's It's not like there isn't a president from from the very first president. But so it's really just a matter of degree and that's kind of where we're that's kind of where we're getting down to getting down to Trump, who is just the He is just the the rankest example of it, the most extreme example of it, but he's but that's again, that's a matter of degree Now back to the Minnesota part of my question. When you were working on this book and you were collecting examples throughout our nation's history of resistance that made an impact, maybe not in the moment But certainly planting seeds of hope and change What came to mind When you were watching the news as well in Minnesota, did you see connections with our past Oh yeah. I mean, this is that's where all resistance starts It's It's local, it's visceral in looking at resistance through American history, one of the things that really became clear was understanding resistance as a process, not just as a subject, not just as these moments kind of as vveilences of protests and opposition but that in order to push back against abuseive authority effectively and to do it at scale to do it sort of on a national basis rather than on a local basis What has that really required as building blocks in American history? And what you see is that Oh comes down to My block Twn by town, you know, family by family. I mean, it's really, it's really extraordinary to kind of see that happen. There's a physics to resistance and understanding where abusive authority has come from and understanding the point at which pers at which persuasion ends and you have to put your body in front of them to slow them down and to stop it from happening, particularly at a point like where the abuseive authority is being deployed directly in order to, you know invade the rights of other people that Sometimes that is the essence of direct action. that you had to just directly connect and impact that abuse of authority and to be able to see that we saw earlier in the year in Los Angeles against Iice. we saw it in New Orleans against Iice We saw it in Minneapolis against Iice and we we're seeing it in Deliny Hallll right now And I think that when you look at particularly in Minneapolis to see all of the core building blocks of effective resistance, which is which are groups of people who are relying on each other It is that kind of retail on the ground block wide block ive opposition. put yourself between The abuser and the abused is the ultimate sort of the ultimate expression, I think, of resistance, especially because In the end to stand up there next to your neighbors is a fundamental matter of trust. And it's a fundamental expression of shared values in the in the most simple terms. you have people And all of these capacities in Minneapolis who were not just the folks who were standing there in front of other people, not just the You know, not just the Alex Prety is an incredible example there were the people who were supporting everyone really at the who were really there on the front lines. And those are the people who were calling out ice as they were going by, who were using the whistles to go ahead and alert everybody else that IC was coming, who were doing things like making sure that they were taking care of other people's kids so they could get to the protests. they could get to the opposition that they were making that they were be able to pick up kids and and make lunches and make meals and make coffee, that that seeing all of that in a kind of a micro setting are all of the basic building blocks and of effective resistance at its most fundamental expression. And so it was almost case study if not in masterclass and how resistance actually works on the ground, but it requires trust, commitment, but also this this band of opposition, this band of commitment from the people who are on the front line but understanding that there are people who have to support them And and we were able to see all of that and what was going on in Minia It's just like in war, what we're watching with Ukraine and resisting Russia's invasion You need a very strong supply line. You need strong tires. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you have to people who are willing to supply that. and that's the kind of thing that when I have conversations about it. peoplee are ask people ask me all the time, what role can I play and the And my response is always, well, what role can you play? what really is What is what is your factor in that that nobody, if you're the person who is going to be able to make sure that somebody else can get there in that protest then that's exceptionally valuable. We can look at examples like the Underground Railroad, which I lease do. I'm fascinated by that history. So so yeah, it's tell us. Well, I mean, it's it is that that idea that that's I think it's one, I think it's an extraordinarily sophisticated resistance network that requires people playing all of these roles and then coordinating all of all of that action in order to accomplish their goals. You have to to get somebody from you know, southern Maryland or Northern Virginia and enslav person from Southern Maryland and Northern Virginia up to Canada isn't something that is done Eily, it's not something that's done in that hw wayay. notot if you're going to do it with five thousand, ten thousand, twenty thousand people. And so to be able to understand how that functioned on the ground, you're able to see how each person understanding their micro role in a macro process and accepting that, even if it is just passing a person along, even if it is just being part of the people who are willing to say I didn't see anything when the federal marshalss come that everybody has to have a buy in to that and even if they're playing a small role, then that's a valuable role because without that role You're not able to pass that person along to the next person and accomplish the goal. So And I saw that a lot when I was looking at a variety of different resistance contexts because I knew that to understand resistance as a process and understand it authentically, then I had to get out of looking at it just in what was going on in the United States. So I looked at resistance in in Europe during World War I, I learned at resist I looked at resistance in Southeast Asia, in the later twentieth century to try to understand what dynamics held and what didn't and what were the factors that made different kinds of resistance develop in different ways. and then bring that back to our historical examples, so I you can start to see where and why the American form of resistance is in fact different from, say Norwegian or Dutch or French resistance during World War II And it was in seeing what the way that the French resistance was able to build networks in order to get Jewish people end down pilots out of France and into London under the Nazis. and the kind of the same kind of building blocks they had to put together in order to do that based upon the same organizational rationale that the underground railroad deployed, but the underground railroad gets no credit for that kind of sophistication becausecause we know so little about it. I think that we need to give a little more attention to exactly how you have to boil it down to all of these functional elements in order to make sure that people know part that they need to play in order to accomplish these ber these broader resistance goals. Now in the case of the resistance of the French during World War II or the resistance of of the underground railroad, that's about addressing the symptoms of abuseive authority the enslavery establishment of the First Republic and maintaining millions of people in bondage Well, part of resistance is about when you can't ively at scale address the source of that authority at the national and you know how it's being deployed. Well, you have to work on addressing the effects. You have to work on addressing the people who are in fact being abused by that authority. You have to address the symptoms And and you can address that by getting them out. by getting it by removing them from under the pressure of that authority And That's what Harry Tubman' doing. That's what the underground Rilroad is doing trying to go ahead and suck that out and get these people out from, you know, under the heel of abuseive authority. that's And that's a very interesting way to look at it because they can't They the underground railroad at the time I mean, just like the resistance in Western Europe, not necessarily Eastern Europe, but Western Europe during World WarI It is you can't operate at scale without broader allies. and the and the kind of support that they provide um that, um that it requires even the underground railroad acquired Canada to open up and to provide a safe, legal, protected haven for enslaved people That's what unlock the underground railroad to work at scale Because before that they are moving enslaved people to other kind of more or less temporary safe havens and in the the in the the Northwest. I mean, in what then was the Northwest in Michigan and Ohio And then of course in in the Northeast New England, but that is that's a band aid, right? That's temporary. You're still you're still a fugitive. you're still within the you're still within the jurisdiction it's not a long term plan. You see what happened with D a judg is that she's still a fugit for the rest of her life. Shes has to rely on people who are willing to commit federal crime And That's the enslaved woman you mentioned earlier at the top of our discussion escaped George Washington was goer of our country and he broke laws, norms to try to steal her back. He broke the fugitive slave act that he signed because he wanted just to have her kidnapped and taken back to Mount Vernon The law said that she had to go in front of a federal judge Um But no, he wasn't having that. He didn't need that. He was president of United States. and more than point was George Washington In any case, that does kind of see that helping someone like Ona stillill involved ongoing risk within the jurisdiction of enforcement every single day of somebody's life when they helped her. She She didn't stop breaking the law until the day she died So you couldn't really rely on people to continue to move if they were continued to be under threat And so that's why the underground railroad does not escalate until Canada opens up as being a reliable terminus for enslaved people to in fact be free and to be able to stay free Once that happens in the eighteen thirties And then obviously there's the impetus of the more egregious fugitive slave laws, but it's not until that point in which they have some place to go. They have an ally that's providing that kind of support. that the underground railroads able to, you know, able to expand. the same thing happened in World War Io with with the resistance is that You don't have a reliable way for Jewish people to get out of Western Europe or down pilots to get out of Western Europe until England's able to open up and make sure will that it will receive them and you're able to develop those kind of channels. You you can't just keep It's not effective just to keep moving people around. That's not a long term solution. So you can't really operate at scale And so it's very interesting to kind of see how those building blocks work, but how the question of What are you limited to limited to in terms of your goals as in developing any kind of opposition to an authoritity What really practically are your limitations because of the reach of that authority? So if you in fact have to go underground, if you have to make sure that you are not being seen because they're going to enforce their authority then how limited are you into what you can achieve? What can your strategic approach be? Well, in the case of the underground Rilroad, they can't attack it at scale what they can do is they can attack the effects, they can attack the source. they can do what we have not been seeing a whole lot go on right now, which is gettingting the people who are directly impacted out from under the thumb of that authority and getting them to safety, getting people who are threatened by IIS and just getting them out Um And I think that's a that's again, that's another problem of scale right now I want to ask you about broader allies. You mentioned, of course, Canada had to be a promised land for the underground railroad for these people to be physically, spiritually safe from and what they were running from And also, of course, in World War two, we needed to have our allies in strong positions That time of history was different. We were in much more of a multipolar world or Britain was a superpower during the time of before the Civil War in America Here today, America is the biggest military by far. The economic and military might of the US is staggering in all of world history So yes, one hundred percent agree we need our broader allies, but our broader allies as defiant as they have been in trying to fight for themselves against Trump's trade war t war They're also bringing him bars of gold and other bribery gifts. Yeah. And so there is a bit of fawning as they say in psychology, including, you know, Mark Carney is certainly talking the toughest, I would say and he's right there As well as Claudia Sumbaum, the president of Mexico, they are talking topough and they have the most to lose. They're very much acting like Ukraine on the border with Russia, which is admirable But we really need more. So we've said on the show, we had Ellie Mistal of the nation on and Ellie and I were calling for the EU to sanction Jared and Ivanka. We said that in early twenty twenty five and they didn't listen. And now Ivanka and Jared are grabbing prrotected Albanian land to do God knows what to it and literally evicting people from their homes. L their family like their buddy Netanyahu does across Israel with his terrorist supporters. The magical an authoritarianism going on all over the place. But how do we get broader allies now? And what should those broader allies be doing to help us here at home? Because the enemy we're up against is massive Look at what they just did on our White House lawn with this UFC cage match sponsored by Saudi Arabia. and you have Mark Zuckerberg there sweating away in the front row next to Stehven concentration camp Miller. It just seems like our you what I don't have to give his rap sheet because we' all experienced Do many of us directly. So How do we get these broader allies? Who are they? and what could they be doing for us right now It's a failure of the twenty first century nationate in the multilateral system going to the UN for sanctions at Good luck But you talk about the reach of American authority, whether it's America's financial authority or Amera's military authority That authority extends in all kinds of ways, and which is why even people who are who are whoses whose hearts and minds might be in the right place like Sheine Baum and Carney. and you Scandinavian countries U they what they can afford truly do. is somewhat limited. The only thing you were able to the only time you were able to actually see something happen is when the EU really organized against Trump over Greenland. and they threatened the trade relationships That changed what Trump is doing in Greenland very quickly within a matter of within just a matter of forty eight hours to see that kind of collective will to push back is the kind of thing that it would require, especially where it hurt. I mean, it's one of the principles one of the resistance principles of the book is to force the fight is to make sure that authoritarians don't have it easy, that they don't because that just enables them. It just reinforces a belief that they are unstoppable until you do stand in their way And I think that that's what the EU was able to collectively accomplish by pushing back in that way when it came to Greenland. I think that's that's of limited endurance. And I think that so when we're talking about Where can you find reliable allies? What can you do I think because of The collapse of the multilateral systems that were established after World War twoo in terms of as mutual enforcement mechanisms and rule of law. And, you know, people who are able to, you know, take care of, you know, rule of law disputes The collapse of that means that right now, given the way China and Russia and the United States are functioning onn a global scale. Israel, certainly without with out any regard to any kind of idea that such a thing as international law exists. I mean, it's a joke to talk about those terms right now and say, okay, well, we we need sanctions. O, great. Well for as long as the UN Security Council is organized the way it is re not getting get anything through that. being that is to look beyond nation state actors for the kind of support that opposition needs or in order to expand. The one thing that's been very impressive about discussions in Europe is the amount of broad popular support that any American opposition would have if it emerged in any kind of functional organized strategic capacity And I think that there is a lot of possibility out there for American opposition to be able to reach for again non state actors to support them as but the problem is to make sure that you've got to have a clearly organized goal. What is you want to achieve? I mean, Canada was able to step in during the eighteen thirties, eighteen forties, and eighteen fifties because what did the underground railroad need? They needed a safe haven for enslaveedment. It was a very clear rask, was very clear direction And that was a and that's the kind of thing that when people are saying, okay, well other folks could help What's your ask? What is the help that you want? What is in fact capacity that you want to build that requires particular support that you can then organize and generate Because right now, because everyone is relying on nation state actors, to provide all of the leadership because that is what in the post war, you know, in the post World War two structure, we have been conditioned to understand is the realm of permissible activity Well, once you step outside, you recognize that that's no longer working. NATO no longer works as function as it was designed. UN no longer works, it was designed. If If those things did work as they were designed, we would not be having these messes right now We would not be dealing with Ukraine. We would not be dealing with Gaza. We would not be dealing with even the United States, the multilateral institutions have collapsed. And we need to recognize that they've collapsed and therefore look towards other kinds of actors who might be able to assist, but you can't do that. until you stop a relying on state actors to do everything for you and realiz that, okay, we're going to have to step outside of that structure, outside of even that paradigm and understand that you need to sort of rely on perhaps others. But to do that, you need to know what your ask is. You need to know what you're looking to other people to do for you to help with. Is it about getting out people from under the heel of ice. so you need to get them to somewhere that can protect them That's about capacity building So who was your ask for that? Who is your asking Canada for that? Who is you your asking Mexico for that? Who is're asking Nor way for that to go ahead and move people in that way. Or is it about is about funding it in order to fund an infrastructure. but there's got to be a plan for that. There's going to be a plan for all of these things. in order for you to be able to rely on help for allies, you got to know what you're asking for And right now there's just no But there's no strategic vision. for what an opposition could look like. The only ask is give money to the Democratic Party. That's the ask support the Democratic Party, help them win the election That's the only message. And that that is not as I suspect an effective message. Based on the history that you've studied that you feature in your book What would be three things that would make a difference for us today and really turning the tide in our own front lineine of this global war between democracy versus fascism. Leadership. leadership and leadership. There go, leadership the energy that exists on the ground in the United States to form an effective opposition is real, it's palpable, it's pervasive. The energy is all over the place. There is no shortage of people who are willing and able to move in whatever kind of capacity you need them to move. And I think that that is true from Maine to Arizona. I think that's true all across the country. what is wasting their energy. and in fact, Depleting their emotional resources is the lack of any kind of real meaningful leadership at the if not on a national level, more broadly. Oh, so what they see are you know we talked about before, you can see actions in Minneapolis. You can see actions in New Orleans, you can see actions in LA. you can see actions in Delaney Hall and a whole bunch of smaller places all over the place that don't make the national news, but do make local news're looking up a lot of pushback going on all over the place. What's not doesn't exist anybody who's able to connect those individual operations in any kind of meaningful way, to coordinate, to leverage resources, to provide a strategic vision, and also to articulate a vision of a vision of change, what they what you want to achieve, for the pressure points you want to address in terms of just about The most effective message, the most effective opposition right now has been about IC, right? It has been about immigration because that is the most visible point of the abuse of authority being enforced. And that has been what has activated the most people on the ground can be and historically, it is exactly that kind of thing that has been the basis for forming a larger opposition network. But What has happened historically is that there has been a measure of leadership to be able to provide that kind of connection. so you can start coordinating activities and therefore you can bring your pressure to bear at the point of weakness for the abuse of authority and then make it churn, it make it expend resources, makeake it waste time, it make it waste money, it twice or three times or four times about what it is they're doing and how they're going to do it But without that All you're doing is playing this game of sort of resistance whackem all. And and that's what we lack right now because the becausecause the leadership is even the potential leadership is entirely directed towards O the ends that are not that's not about what's going on in the ground So are you advocating for a more centralized leadership? Like we have sort of an AOC rising, Mum Donnie rising here in New York, and they're certainly setting a tone. like AOC led to Mum Donny directly. And they've given birth to a whole new generation of leaders that are rising. So if Mum Donny steps out of line, there'll be somebody else to primary him. That's why he has to be on his best behavior. The level of talent in New York City right now is off the charts historic It is like the end it is like the next Starting guard and their and their bench com That is you need the bench a metapor for the grassroots power of New York City. Yeah so ye, but that's a's. I see hope in a grassroots surge, but you're you sound like you're saying like we need to have some sort of centralized organizing committee I mean, that's because a It is impossible to impose a resistance from the top down. That doesn't exist. That's not a thing. People might think it is, it's not. The only way it works As we started talking about, it has to work on the ground house by house, personally because these are based upon trust networks For you to be able to understand the risks that are involved, also a sense of shared value and a sense of shared purpose, that only comes from working locally. and you have all of the building blocks right there in New York of what needs to be done nationally. because as you said, with AOC, and with Mam Dani, those are bottom up efforts that then scale and become more sophisticated then are able to operate precinct by precinct. It's the same, it's the same organizational thinking as running our political campaign. I worked in politics for ten years and understanding fieldwork and organizing. That's all it is peopleeople who are able to sort of articulate a common goal and recruit and then get people to do things, get people to move, even if that is about campaigning or if that's about going door to door. it's about petition signing. It's about or if it's about getting out the vote It's the same It's the same operational mindset. And that's the same kind of thing that we need. You've got to go ahead and build a kind of organizational capacity to be able to get people to work Cross precincts across a borough or else you can't you don't understand where you kind of need to go ahead and activate people. Okay, where are you weak? Where are you strong? How can you move resources around? And then you can think more strategically about, okay, well how can we need a vision for this in order to unify people We need a vision for change when that's realistic evenven if it's highly aspirational that we don't have, not you might have it regionally and certainly you have it in the city, but having any capacity to kind of connect that together to kind of build a web and a network isn't there. But it should be Thank you so much for listening. The discussion continues on Patreon, and if you want to dive deeper, join with me and other Gasklt Nation listeners at our Monday salons at four PM Eastern There we share strategies and you can go behind the scenes with us. You can get your invitation to that at patreon. com for slash gaslet Thank you to everyone who supports the show. We could not make Gaslet Nation without you. And if you value our independent journalism in these difficult times, be sure to subscribe. It really does help us make an impact. And I will see you in the next episode or at Monday's salon Until then, don't just watch, organize Gaslet Nation would like to thank our supporters at the producer level on Patreon and Her Jan, Allstruck Rasmondson Katie Missuris Anne Bertino, David East Don Roseter. Deborah Sip Diana Gallagher, D.L. Singfield Ice fare is defiant. James D Leard. Jared Lombardo, Joe Darcy, Kevin Gannon, Kristen Custer, Larry Gasson. Via Campbell