Reflecting on the Dick Cavett Show

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Play for free You could win part of the three hundred million dollars in prizes being awarded this season. Use promo code Yelbert For free entry now A draft Kings ot com Draftings dot com That's draftings dot com Am I repeating myself? Hi, this is Gilbert Gotfried and this is Gilbert Gotfried's amazing cololossal podcast with my co host Frank Santo Padre. Our guests today have written, produced and directed seventeen documentaries for PBS, ABC News Turner Entainment and various film studios. taking viewers into the lives and homes of dozens of Hollywood legends, including Fred Astair, Humphy Bogard, Henry Fonda, Katherine Hepburn, Paul Newman and Joanne Woodward and Jimmy Stewart and Spencer Tracy to name just a few. In the process, they've worked with people like Jane Fonder, Richard Drefis Johnny Carson, Olivia D Havaland, Audrey Hepburn and Frank Sinatra. They won numerous Emmy awards and set the gold standard for every televised biobic of the last forty years. They're also revered for their body of work and so respected in the industry. I can for the life of me figure out why they agreed to do this show Welcome to the authors of the newew Book in the company of legends Joan Kramer and David Healy You talking about us? You're the one What an intro. I don't think we can live up to this. Yeah. well, say it's an intro slash obituary. Found dead in their home. That's not funny. you do know Dick Cavat is holds the record of the only talk show host to ever have a guy die. Oh yes,ote Health wrote He. The guy that wrote Health. Yes. Yeah, yeah. he told us Killed over. Yeah. I think that hurt the sales of that book Well, you know what happened? I'll tell you the story if you have the time He arrived at the studio and the makeup artist, a woman named Ty Russell, who was Dick's makeup artist and everybody else's led him into the makeup room and said, you know, you look fabulous. And she said to me later, you know, I know faces. I've been doing people's faces for a long time And this guy looked great. I didn't know how old he was So he sat down in my makeup chair and I said to him, you know, you don't need a lot You just need a little powder to take off the shine And he said, you know the secret of my success? I'm seventy seven years old. She said, What's the secret of your success? I eat nothing but twigs, leaves, bark. And in the meantime, she says she's pushing her potato chips and her coke down the counter and he said, Id eat nothing but natural things that you can find outside. And she said, reallyally? And she led him out to the stage And he goes on camera and they tape segment one and Dick says, you know, without the real commercial roll in, we'll be right back with JJ Rodale And they went, you know a two second break and then up came the camera because they'll roll the commercial in later. And he starts talking to JJ Rodale again and JJ Rodale went Thank God, I wasn't there that day. And Dick said, amm I boring you No answer By the way, the wife was in the audience. Oh, okay And Dick said hello. And he leaned over and poked him and the body fell on the floor Well, you know, to say the least, it was the one and only time it's certainly in my days there that they ever stopped tape and cleared the audience No matter what, except this. Well, they called the fire department, which was across the street from the little theater where we were taping, and the stage was ramped And so the fire department came with a stretcher up the ramp through the audience. The wife is hysterical, of course, sitting there and they In such a melee, they put the body on the stretcher and went straight down the ramp. They forgot to strap the body on the stretcher. It rolled off onto the floor. Oh. In the meantime, Dick had disappeared backstage, no cell phones at that time. He was overheard on a payphone making an appointment for a complete physical with his doctor. Ohice time So some good came out of it Unbelievable Thank God, my mother used to go to taping than God, she wasn't there to see a body roll on the floor He told us the story. It's scary It really is does it match my story Oh yeah, pretty much. There was another like In the movie on Golden Pond, where Henry and Jane fonda play appropriately in our father and daughter She's a woman trying to come to terms with her emotionally aloo father who has no love or affection for his children And judging by your book, that sounds like it could be a home movie It was There were certain reflections of the truth in that She she I think the making the movie was a catharsis for Jane because she was able to say things as a character. to her father that she couldn't say in real life and Kate was with her moral support K would stand H behind the camera offstage Basically egging Jane A giving her the strength to continue with some of these extremely difficult scenes. W With her fist, you can Really? You can do it. G because Jane was She said it was a waking up in the morning wanting to throw up kind of experience on the day she had to do those scenes. And the other thing is that in the script, she was required to do a backflip. into the water. And her intention was to have a stand in do it, obviously And then and talking to Kate, she realized would not approve of that. And she learned to do a backflip to prove to Kate that she could actually do it Ands that's what we see in the movie. Yeah. It's really Jane doing it. Andcause Kate admitted to her that she could do a back flip. She herself could do a backflip. And Jane thought, I'll be damned if I'm not gonna to do this backfip Somehow, they'd gone forty five years, both of them in Hollywood, Henry Fonda and Katherine Hepburn without meeting. And what did Katherine Hepburn say upon upon meeting him she say something? Well, it's about time. R And didn't she give him Spener Tacy's hat The first day of filming, he told us She had something in her hand all crunched up and he couldn't tell what it was And she said Here, this was Spencer's favorite hat And he said, you know, this beautiful brown, crushable felt Cat And he said, I collapsed. He started to cry. And he wore it in the first scene of the film And he said, after the scene, I thought she wanted me to just have it his wardrobe He tried to give it back to her and she said, but it's yours. I want you to have it. And he had it and he propped it on the proropped on the side of a bench in his backyard and we shot it. It's in the book Now There was a story that hit Frank and I u very hard and that was that He was so So un you know, un looving to his children, Henry Fanda that What did Peter Fonda used to do as a child Well, first of all, let me just say that Henry Fond, you know, we're quite close to Shirley Fonda, Henry's widow. Still and Sirlely made it very clear from the time that she knew Henry, which was the longest marriage she ever had ry had two complicated children by his first wife Jane is not uncomplent. She's a wonderful lady and we adore her and very vulnerable by the way, she's not a tough broad as some people think Peter is complicated and so is Jane. Is that Henry's fault? I don't know She had a mother who committed suicide. You know, their mother committed suicide. I mean I don't know how much of aloof and unloving Henry Fonda truly was. There are pictures of him with the kids crawling over his shoulders and as little kids, etcera. However The answer to your question is long winded, Peter told me on the phone in my first conversation with him said he used to open his father's dresser drawers. touch his pajamas and his socks just to feel closer to him. And he told me at that point that he was writing a book called Don't tellell Dad which wasn't published for about five years after we did the show, but he did publish it and I suddenly realized I'm talking to a grown man who's basically I mean, I had a pinch myself to remember I'm not talking to a little kid Not that he sounded like a little kid, but the emotions were was still looking for his father. Still looking for approval and love. touching. From his father, when he told me that, I mean, I was very number when I was touched that he would share that with me. And number two, I really had to stop and remember that Peter was at the time fifty something years old when he was talking about this This happened because because when we did the show Jane was this is the time when Ted Turner and Jane Fander were engaged. and u in a way gave Jane an engagement gift, which was a show about her father, which was going to go on TNT, and she was going to host it So when we met And then they called us and asked if we'd produce the show. So when we met Jane, she said I'm going to contact everybody for you. She contacted Shirley to introduce us to Shirley and she contacted Peter to introduce us to Peter, and that's when Joan called Peter and got this wonderful story about almas in the draw But surely we had met actually a number of years earlier when we interviewed Henry in connection with A show we're doing about Catherine Heitbert and they just finished on Golden Pond And Shirley wouldn't let us into the house. She did not want a film crew in the house. Really? And frankly, I totally understand. I've taken film crews into houses and I can understand somebody saying, I don't want a film crew in my house. So our first meeting with Shirley was she was somewhat distant. and when we actually met her again as a result of Jane introducing us when we werere doing the show on Henry We met her in a restaurant in New York And she was she was very polite, very pleasant But we sensed a little remove, a certain remoteness from her Yeah. we eventually met her again in the house in Velaire, where she and Henry had lived and we met because we were going to go through with some memorabilia. She founced her for us. and what it was going to be like a half hour or maybe the most annow meeting way late into the evening we were at pizza and she was rummaging, going down to the basement, pulling up photographs and bringing up. David and she were running up and downstairs while I sat there looking through it all. and then the next morning she called Joan and said, I found more. youve got to come back, I found more But what she said was I she said, I'm really sorry, I felt I was somewhat remote. She said I wasn't ready to deal with talking about Henriette. It's still too close to me. too difficult. And she had never looked through the stuff that she was showing us from the basement before. Interesting. But it was very emotional and cathartic at the same time.. And didn't she give you some lithographs? Yep as a gift. We werere very close to showing. Ver close to. We're going from this remote She was an incredible. He was an incredible artist. I mean needle point and painter And sketch black and white sketches the lithographs are in the book. I should say One of the lithographs includes the hat that Kate guess us saw in the book Y. Now. One thing in the book M and Frank Bean through Stooges fans Hit us in particular. is that Jimmy Stewart. U Was he like taking lessons or influenced by Ted Healley What was the story he told J ten He? It was something about respecting your audience. N never talking down the audence. standand in for him, I think, at one point. Very early on in the thirties. Be for those who don't know It originally Ted Healley was a vaudeville performer. it was Ted Healy and his three stooges until they branched off on their own I didn't even know that. Yeah We're trying to wrap our minds around Ted Healley and Jimmy Stewart. It's so cononguous. used Ted Heley was basically Moe before Moe took over, like he would slap them. That's right. The stud just went through many incarnations. Yeah. Well Ted Haley apparently either was a stand in or something at MGM when Jimmy started making movies And they became good friends And he Jimmy Stewart told us that that was the best advice he was ever given Never treat your audience as customers Treat them as your partners. And he said, he's never forgotten that Another thing about Jimmy Stewart that seems to be Common people who've been through World War I is he actually was a hero. I mean, he wasn't one of those guys You know, in down south stationid't just sell Wbuns. Yeah. He wasn't just having his picture taken in front of a plane. He was on bombing missions. The lead pilot on over twenty five bombing missions over Germany. It was very hard to find film of him at that time because he avoided the cameras. But we did find one piece of him talking to camera And you can see how tired he is You can see he's drained of energy because they were up all hours and those were very draining. He already had his squadron. And we had on the Jimmy Stewart showow. I don't know if if you'veith either of you have ever seen it. I've seen it We had on the show his superior in the United States Air Corps, it was called, before the Air Force Ramsesay Potts, his name was. James Stewart, a wonderful life. the show was called, We shouldould. Thank. Thank you U tellell our listeners and u Ramsay Potts told us that. He was always very you know, very easy to talk to, but he also, you know, he had a hard He had a hard sense of discipline. And he could be very tough when he had to. and he led, as Ramseay Pot said, over twenty five bombing missions as the lead pilot and there would somehow sometimes be hundreds of hundreds of planes behind him. I mean, it was a huge battalion going after these. By the way, the reason we had to get Ramsy parts is because we'd heard that Jimmy himself wouldn't talk about those. What happened when you asked him to talk about it? There's something in the book about it Well We had to talk we had to deal with his war expience. s otherwise it was not going to be a full portrait of Jimmy Stewart because most people didn't know about this and it was a very important aspect of who Jimmy Stewart really is or was, I should say And But we'd been warned that he didn't like to talk about it. Nevertheless, when we sat down to do the interview, and I did the first off camera interview with him before we put in with Johnny Carson, who is the host of the show I just said I had to go for it, and I said to him Mr. Stewart, could you describe for us a typical bombing mission over Germany? No. Being the brave fellow that I was I moved right ont to the next question. It's very peculiar. you got out while getting was good Yeah, but you see, and I don't I'm sorry to interrupt you. How dare you talk? Yes, I'm not known My guests aren't allowed to speak I had called around to ask people to talk to me about Jimmy Stewart, not necessarily for quoting them. or to be on camera but I just wanted a full picture of the man that had this image of A Shucks and Gee Whiz. R? And it's, you know, it's a wonderful life and, you know, all the Capra heroes. All the Capra heroes Among the people I called was a producer director named Hel Canter Howal Canter produced and I don't I think he directed like seven or them. Some of the episodes of something called the Jimmy Stewart Show in nineteen seventy one. amm I right about that? David? Whatever.ose. And I said to him, I know that he's got this reputation and please believe me, Mr. Cantter, I'm not looking for negatives I'm not But I'd like a full picture of this man Who has this aw shucks Image. And he said, let me tell you about Jimmy Stewart. I'll give you a little piece of advice Because I said to Mr. Candor, you worked with him You know, on a weekly series, it's not quite the same thing as us dealing with Jimmy Stewart maybe five times for the during the course of the making of this program. I said, you had him every single day for months, right? and long hours. He said to me, let me give you a piece of advice. He said, first of all, Jimmy Stewart has lived in the same house. over forty years in Hollywood, when people tear down houses and build houses faster than we change socks He's been married to the same woman. for over forty years without a hintint of scandal He is nice He is polite and he's a gentleman Don't Mess with him. He didn't say mess. He used the after word. I said. I said say. I said, Ecuse me. And he said, never forget a few things The man knownows what he wants, he knows what's right for him, and he knows how to dig in his heels. when he has to He has he has again. a Republican in a town where all of his friends, including Henry Fonda, his best friend, are Democrats. for the most part He does not back down He retired as a brigadier general from the military after twenty seven years, and he never forget that he flew over twenty five bombing missions as the lead pilot. My best advice to you is don't try pulling wool over his eyes, don't. mess with him and you'll get along fine. and we did It didn't pull. No, I wouldn't I wouldn't imagined it. On possibly the other side of the World War I battles. Arl Flynn Wh you know, is the big swash buckler handsome El Flynn I I remember hearing a quote much the same way they called John Barrymore. the great profile that they had nicknamed Erl Flynn, the Great Jew hater. I've never heard that. Yeah That I had died There were a lot of rumors about Arf Loom. I didn't hear that. And and they said that he there's some people who even suspected him of being a Nazi. That's where it came from That's where it came from. He o let me see if I can remember the story now. He in his early days before anybody knew who Erl Flynn was, met with what's the guy's name What's a guy? Castro No, no, no, no, who's the Oh the I'm sorry. The German There's a German. there was a German person who later was thought to be a spy. Yes double agent, so to speak. Interesting. And Erl Flynn knew this man, and I can't think of his name for the life so they rubbed off. If this guy was a spy, then Erln have our researchers outside the. I I'm sorry' sorry,. just went out of my head He also accused because Erllynn was hired as a journalist to cover the Spanish American War. for a while He also knew Fidel Castro And everybody put it all together and came up with, okay, he's a spy It was it wasn't. It makes good copy. It makes very good copy. copy. But there were so many rumors that went around about Erl Flynn we tried to Let's see if any of them were true as most of the rumors were not. Right. By the way, can I just debunk tell you a rumor that we did debunk? Please do Jimmy Stewart was never drafted was never Jimmy Stewart one more time. Jimmy Stewart never enlisted, which was everybody's impression in the United States That's what the public because he was such a patriot. It was easy was drafted and he told us umptteen times, I was drafted, Read my lips. I say it's the only lottery I ever won. And by the way, when we when we when Johnny Carson was reading the narration script for that He came across to that point and he said, This is wrong. You've got this wrong. He he was he enlisted. He enlisted And he said, No, no, no, no, we've checked and He he said, please, please Call call Jimmy again, I want to make sure we get this right. Joan called Jimmy, he said My lips thely lottery I have the won was drafted. I will tell you again Carson originally didn't want to narrate. The story about Johnny Carson is rather interesting When we finally persuaded Jimmy Stewart to let us do a show about him, we had to come up with a host. Strangely, we hadn't thought much about it we' having so much trouble getting Jimmy to say yes, yes, yes. But we were actually on our way to a meeting at MGM, who we were co producing the show with them and I said to Jo, Joe, we hadn't We haven't got a host yet. Who are gonna use as the host? We were literally in the car on the way to the meeting. We knew this question was gonna to come. Gean Arthur didn't cross your mind at all. I loveved Jean Arthur. My love her too. She made several pictures with him. Yes. But it probably retired by the well retired by that point. Jean Arthur was hard to find anyway. She was she become so big of a recluse. I said, but you know I said to Joan, look, he's soonderful with Johny Carson on this and Iight, maybe we should ask Johnny Carson And she said, Look, let's say Jhny Carson. Theyll love the idea, right? So we went to the meeting and he said, We're thinking of going after Johny Carson. and we said to ourselves, How the hell are we gonna get Johnny Carson? Joan got to work. Joan you spoke to Jimmy's publicist, was? Jimmy's publicist was a lovely man who quickly became a friend named John Strauss, who represented everybody in Hollywood at one point, but he was Jimmy's press agent for something like forty six years, forty five years John Stras, I said to him, John, you know, we're thinking of Johnny Carson But you know, he never does anything outside of occasionally the Oscar telecasts as it. John Johnny was on the Tonight showh. He knew he did that well. He didn't want to do anything else. Yeah, there's a piece in the book about him telling you guys why he always turned down movie roles. Exactly. Turned down the King of comomedy. Yeah. the talk show host part Yeah. He knew who he was and he knew what he did well knew for a man who obviously must have had a Ego And I'm sure people fed it He knew exactly what to stay away from because he knew what he couldn't do. And a lot of people don't know what they can. He said the moment I do a movie, the critics are going to chew me up and they'll be right. Well he was fun in cameos and television shows. He played himself on the Mary Tyla Moore showh That was fun. And him, but that's being him. He was Johnny C. That's true. That's true. And also anyway, so John Straus said to me, the only person I can think of for you to try getting to Jimmy to Johnny quickly is David Tabbt Tabbott was largely responsible for Johnny getting the Tonight Show when Jack Parr quit because David Debbott was the head talent person at NBC for years. So he gave me the telephone number of David Tebett How he knew David Te but I never asked but anyway. I called David Tebt, who couldn't have been nicer And he said, seend me a letter and I'll hand it to Johnny So we sent a FedEx letter to California And three days later, David Tebett called me and said Tell them I told you He asked me to give you his home number, which was a clue Don't tell him I told you, but he's going do this for you. But let him tell you himself. He wants to tell you himself So I took the number and I dialed the phone. And I have to say, you know, I grew up watching Johnny Carson. You know, I'd sit in front of a television doing homework watching Johnny Carson in Chicago U Yeah we all did. And I so you know, when he answered the phone himself, he and Paul Newan and Joanne Woodward all answer phones by And Catherine Heb and Katherine He. A So he answered the phone and I must say it was you know a I consider myself a sycophant when it comes to stars because I've dealt with them so many years But this was this was a high talking to Johnny Cararson. and I said to him, I told him who it was. And I said, David Tbb asked me to give you a call. And I didn't say because I didn't want to betray Dave Tebard And he said to me, listen, I'll be happy to do this program with you. you're sure if you're sure it would be okay with Jim I said me. It'll be fine. By the way, they were both like that. They both wanted to be sure that the other one was okay. They were constantly asking if the other was comfortable doing something for them They really They were very close and very caring about each other To Midwesterners. Yes.. And also but it was real. I mean, that wasn't just because Jimmy appeared on the Tonight S showow and they were terrific reading him reading his you saw on the Tonight show was real That was They really adored each other and they were like a mutual admiration. they drove me crazy because on the day that we shot both of them at Universal for the full day on the lot You know, it David will tell you in a minute about his concerns for Johnny. He wasn't concerned for Jimmy, but this was Johnny out of his milieu, right? Johnny's used to a live audience. One take and it's over. Here, he had to sit around and the crew had to move locations and he had to wait and he had to do it over again. And he kept saying, David, I know you need it again. Okay, okay, I'll do it again. And Jimmy would sit by when he had to do something alone and say, That's great, John Great John. And Johnny would blow his lines and say, do you like that one, Jim? You know. Anyway Johnny Um So what was I talking about? You were talking about Johnny saying yes. Oh, yes. only to then change his mind. So John So Johnny said, yes. C I just interrupt for a second Getting a big star like that so easily. Th days. Very, very rare. Yeah. Usually you're chasing all around the moon looking for this contact. This is almost unheard of get somebody to say yes, withre one contact like this So we were on the moon. We were off the moon with us. this is wonderful And he said when when you comeing to California again, we to him, he said, OkayK, come to my house in Malibu, let's talk about it pointintom. He had a beautiful new house. literally one hundred eighty degree view.t wasn't quite finished. He was still building tennis courts, which he showed us. You know, he was a great tennis fan. He took us out and he was so proud of these tennis courts. showed. He told us that the next door neighbors, which probably is about three miles away, but the next door neighbors had two emus You know how big an emu is? He said, everyvery so often, I see the ems in the distance because they're big. Anyway, so then he led us downstairs to his den on a winding staircase. By the way, the landing of the staircase had a full size figure of Stan Laurel Oh, I love that. Full style because he was a great fan of Stan laaurels And so we got downstairs and he on his weights, by the way. And his weights. It was a little kind of gym down there. Yeah. veryery cozy, notot terribly big And u He said, you know, I've been thinking about this You just did a show with Katherine Heippurn hosting a program about Spencer Tracy And u, You know, she not only knew him, but she worked with him in films. I never worked with Jim other than when he comes on my show but we're friends I think I'm the wrong guy to host this show. It was too easy, wasn't it? Yeah a monkey wrench in there. Well, David and I, I mean, you could have cut through the room silence. David and I we couldn't believe it. And neither of us opened our mouths. I mean, we couldn't stand it. And we said, what? And he said, you know The guy you need is Carry Grant. Now, if Johnny seldom did anything on television, Care Greantt never did anything on television, Nhing. And I mean never You have to admit from producers's point of view, the idea that Care Grant would host our program would be the coup of all time. Not that Johnny wasn't a coup, but Care Grant never appeared on television ever. And hadn't he turned you down already to that point, Carry, Grant approached him about several pro him about doing a show about him. Right. Yes. And he didn't he say, if I do it for you, I have to do it for everybodybody Johnny was going to ask him who knew what he was going. Of courseth the shock. So So Johnny said, that's when I found a voice somehow and I said, Johnny, look Catherine Hepperard hosting a show about Spencer Tracy is one thing. It's unique We trying to replicate that. We can't replicate that. We're not going to ask Gloria Stewart to host a show on her husband doesn't make any sense I said, what you represent is every man Who was lucky enough in the end to become his friend And he nodded and he said, Let me ask Carry and see what he says Well, David and I left that house We came on a high and we left feeling like let's talk about going from one extreme to the other. We were really up when werove Drove driving back, we were in the depths of depression. because I said I said to Jo, look Harry Grant. Yeahah, it's a great idea, but If we get him, he's going to overshadow Jimmy Stewart. The shows about Jimmy Stewart. People are going to be watching Carary Grant. What the hell do we do with this situation? And Joan said, and I have a feeling that if Carary Grant says No, Johnny's going to try and find somebody else. He wants He's try to get out of this. we could go on for months and we thought we were in heaven because we got somebody in Johnny in three days. He could run around for months looking for one person after another Checking with us whether we think it's a good idea and then getting a know and starting with the next. It looked like he was trying to find a way out. a nice way out Fast forward to the next morning Next morning, I'm in my hotel room in Los Angeles in Beverly Hills. By the way, none of us neith of us slept very well. I't imagine at all. On top of which, we weren't sure Johnny may not have been testing us Because after all, we didn't know Johnny the first time we met him, he could very well have been thinking Let's see what they say if I try somebody really big. because Johnny didn't think of himself that way as a movie star And so I thought I said to David David, do you think he's testing us? I mean, maybe he doesn't want us to leap at the idea of Carry Graant But he was serious. He said, let me try him. So the next morning my phone rings in the hotel room Well, he said I've called Carrie And the housekeeper told me he's out of town doing that one man show he does at colleges about his life and career. He won't come on my show or anybody else's show and we're friends, but he goes to colleges and talks about his life and career. And so he's going to be away for several weeks and I guess so I guess you're stuck with me. Well As you probably can gather, I'm seldom speechless And I had to stop for a minute and I said Johnny, you have no idea how happy I am to be so stuck Fast forward two and a half weeks We're back in New York and it's Thanksgiving weekend And the Sunday after that Thanksgiving that year At about six o'clock at night, there was There was a news bulletin flash all over the full screen television Care Grant dead in Devvenport, Iowa He died on the way to one of those appearances at one of the colleges Next morning Monday. phone rings ten o'clock in the morning, which is seven AM in L.A. I was going to call Johnny, but he beat me to it. I didn't want to wake him up. I didn't know what time he gets up in the morning He called me I said, Johnny, I'm so sorry I was going to call you. I'm so sorry after all, we were fans, but we didn't really know Carrie Grant. You were a friend I feel terrible just as a fan let alone, what you must be feeling I'm so sorry, and he said to me, Joan I hope you're sitting down. I said, Why? And he said, because I have to tell you what I wanted to say when you just answered the phone. I said, okay And he said, I wanted to say I asked Carry Grant to host your show and he dropped dead. anotherother great actor And I think he he was like one of the earliest of a different type of acting. And that was John Garfield Another guy you made a documentary about. We did. With the help of his family members. Yes, Julie, Julie, and it' Just like the Shirley Fondestore, Julie's a great friend. We're still very close to Julie. We see her frequently Julie apparently had suggested to TCM that they might want to or show about about her father because they owned all his early movies and CCM then called us and said, W you be interested? We said, wow, it sounds like a great story, this Jangfel story is a wonderful story Terrible story. And sad. I mean's a terrible story. I say it's a wonderful It's a wnderful story in terms of it has all the ingredients of a fictional story If somebody who started as a street kid became a great movie star. And then died in his prime. He was hounded thirty nine years old. Yeah, a shame. Many people say he was hounded to death. But didnn't Lee Grant say it in the documentary? say it. Yes,et we have people in the documentary who very outspoken about this that the he was he was hounded not because he was a communist, but because he knew people who were communists and because his wife one point mean a member of the Communist Party and the House and American Activities Committee basically wouldn't let him go h. They were at a point in their life people losing interest in what they were doing. They needed a big movie star to bring themselves back into prominence and they chose John Garfield Because what Julie told us is that after they grilled him for hours and hours after day after day with the FBi following him They would all ask all the members of the Huack commommittee would ask at the end of the day to take take a picture with him So here they are in the process of ruining its life, but they want a photo. Literally. I mean ye It's what kind of people they were. It's hypocrisy, of course. but can we guess we used to hypocrisy l. This was just to tell our audience this was during the communist scare In the fifties of Senator Joe McCarthy. Yeah, McCarthy was was the face of the of the various committees that were basically trying to make a name for themselves by convincing the American public that there were communists in their closet and the communists in the government and that we had to get rid of them all I had a friend I went to film school and I had a friend, a screwriter namedrno Duseaot. I don't know if you know the nameames. He was named by Kazan. Yes, Yes. And had to go to Mexico and work on beexic. Pe's lives were ruined. by the politicians who were trying to put themselves in the limelight. And those disgraceful people. thoseose who decided to name names What was interesting is that Some people name names such as Odetes Jerome Robbins They were in the end forgiven because they capitulated and apologized 'azanne never did. Interesting Kazan in his autobiography actually said I did the right thing. I had to I had to name names because there was a serious communist scare He never never apologized. and when we did the program with Joanne Woodward about the group Theater, She did a rap she had a rap party after the production, which took by the way, five and a half years, but that's another story Um She had a rap party and she invited everybody who participated in the program. And she called me up And she said What am I going to do about Gge? which was Kazanne's nickname for a long time, Gadge I said, What do you mean? She saidays, I can't invite him to the party, even though he's in the show Nobody will come. becausecause every one of the participants such as Phoebe Brandon Karnvsky and Ruth Nelson and Eunice Stoddard and Margaret Barker were all named by him and from their days together in the group theater. and They said to us, We'll participate in the show, but I cannot be in the same room with Kazan. Never And this is forty years later, R right? Sdly forty years And so I said, Joanne, I don't know what to tell you. She said, You know what? Let me call you back in ten minutes. I know how to handle this And she called back in ten minutes and she says, I simply called Gad. and I said to him, lookook, I'm giving a rap party for the show we've done about the group Theater, and I can't ask you to it She said, However, why don't you and Paul and I have dinner next week? Paul Newman, her husband. And that was the end of the problem. She says when she called me back, she says, He's not dumb. I didn't have to explain why I can't invite him uch such a shame, and manner has such talent. Yeah. And the films he made. Yes, just brilliant. absolutely brilliant. Face in the crowd. And yet and yet here' on the water this fal personality floor I read a quote where they ask Paul Newman his opinion on Ila Kazan being a friendly witness. and he said It's very easy now to say what you would have done back then That's what Katherine Hepurn told us too. I asked her You did I said to her, because she had Cazanne's autobiography on her side table when we went to lunch one day And I said, what do you think of that book And I said, let me ask you something. Would you have ever could you ever see yourself as having done what he did back then And she said, you know something, I will never Judge somebody until I have stood in their shoes I had a family if they had come after me, you know, she made speeches wearing a pure red dress at the time deliberately On behalf of Roosevelt And she said If they had come after me and my career went You know in that dumps as a result I had a family. I had a house I had siblings. I had I didn't have to support a family and husb and a wife, a husband or whatever. She said he did I don't know what I would have done if he if I were in his shoes at the time I said to her I do And she just smiled She wouldn't have named names. No way But you knew her well kind of person she was. What if so So they were after John Gwfield And then what happened then? Well he again, what what what really happened? we'll never know because We don't have that insight. He had had a heart problem. Rheumatic fever. Rheumatic fever from his late teens, early twenties And it had always bothered him Was it just coincidence? the stress of it couldn't have helped.f C because he had stopped working Well he couldn't. No, he was blacklisted. Yeah, yeah. could got fine work. couldn't make any. He made two films himself and his own company. He couldn't get any other work at all. He went back to the stage as a result and did work on the stage and work in television. could not get any more movie work. Interestingly enough, he was still friends with Kazan who directed it many times, to the end You know, I can't answer that. How interesting. I remember when Kazan was given that Oscar a few years ago. remember how polarizing that was.. Remember that Oh very yeah. Some people would stand and applaud and other people remain seated. their arms crossed. Oh, the shot of the audience wasing. The audience shot was what was a big It really divided people. Absolutely. We will return to Gilbert Godottfriich's amazing colossal podcast A this This summer, Prime V videoideo takes you back before legally blonde, before law school and into the world of Elle Woods in high school. Set in nineteen ninety five, this Gemini vegetarian knows exactly who she is until her family moves from Belair to Seattle. Packed with iconic fashion, nineties nostalgia, and a throwback soundtrack, Elle proves one thing Law school was hard. High school was harder. From the world of legally blonde, watch Al, a new original series only on Prime videoide. Watch now. Now I have to get a little salacious There's always the rumor.ise it took them this long. John . John Garfield. died in a hotel room with a young blonde It's not all that far off the truth. Why It's not that it's not all that far off the truth. It wasn't a hotel room he was in he was Ramesty Park, I think, was a woman whose name was Iris Whitney who I believe was an interior decorator The story we heard was that there' intntimate relationship had come to an end But they remained friends, and they went out to dinner and he ate all the wrong foods. You know, when you're upset and stressed, you start giving yourself comfort food. Well he had a rheumatic heart and he's hounded and followed and you know they were following him in addition to absolutely. The FBI was following him and the phones were tapped The phones were tapped. And he ate all the wrong foods and he said he wasn't feeling well. And she said, Come back and you know, you can take a rest in my place in Grammmer Park And she put him to bed and she went in to check on him in the morning and he was dead By the way, talking about the FBI following him Many, many years later his wallet turnednder In his wallet was the number of the FBI agent that followed him Unbelievable. Oh my go Underrated actor John Garfld, he was quite you know he's quite It love If you've read that part in the book, but you know who's an incredible movie buff is Richard Dreyfus. Yeah, we should mention that Richard Dreyus was worked with you guys and was a narrator on O the universal story as well And he wrote the forward to the book. And wrote the forward to the new book He dictated it to me on the phone off the top of his head. We're big fans Gilberra and I of Richard Drefus. He's one. He's so funny and so brilliant when it comes to movies. I mean, he can pick out a tiny little element of a movie that you would have never paid attention to and suddenly he brings that element alive. Can I remind you how we first met him and realized this When we were doing the show on Jimmy Stewart, we said to Stewart, can you tell us some of today's actors that you think are good Is it worth watching And on the list was Richard Dreryifus He only had four, and we went after two and got Wow I'll tell you who the four were if yes, Ies Redford Dustin Hoffman Richard Dreyfus and Clint Eastwood And why Clint Eastood was on the list because he hoped that Clint Eastwood would revitalize what he considers a true American Art form, which is the movie Western. and so we went after Clint Eastwood, and we went after Richard. We didn't go after Dustin and we didn't go after Redford, because in those days They've gotten better, but we used to see them every how often on a television interview and they weren't great. It was sort of monosyllables, answers. Oh yeah. When we got when we got Richard, He was actually making a movie on The Warers's Lot with Barbara Streisen called Nuts Oh yes whereere' the psychiatrist, right? right And he said, lookook I'm going to have a break in the afternoon tomorrow. Why don't you come to the lot and we'll do the interview? So we said we said to him, A there any particular scenes in any of Stewart's movies that we should pay attention to He described a scene. wasas it mr. Smith? Mr. Smith goes to. scene in Mr. Smith in such great detail that nobody would pay attention to normally. Aout how Stewart is handling a hat Stewart's talking to somebody, but it's what he's doing with that? Oh, he keeps dropping the hat when he's in the scene with the is Je Arthur? It's not Jerthur. It's another senator's daughter who he's sn You're right, you're right. And every time she comes in the room, as Richard said, he can't hold his hat inight. That He keeps dropping the hat behind him and bending down, but he never loses eye contact He said, Richard said, I've tried it in a mirror. It's impossible I don't know how he did it because it's choreography. in addition to delivering the lines and keeping the dialogue going, he said We never in a million years would have used that scene in our show, We did, thanks to Richard. But that's when we realized that Richard really is a movie b He knows his movies big time And it's Jimmy Stewart who named almos? Yes What I I can't get over what an honor That is to all those actors. Isn't it So what Richard must have been thrilled when you told him that And Richard from And Eon said we asked him to host Universal Story, which he ate up and spit out He just loved that stuff. Here he is. the history of movie is the history of Universal. Wow. That's Gilbert's stuff. Yeah. But let let me just say one thing to you. but When u when Richard He became a repertory player for us. So when we asked him to appear on the John Garfield for the John Garfield show, told us something that I couldn't remember because we didn't use it in the program in any great length And when we were writing this chapter in the book I remembered and I said, David, I've got to ask him what he said Dramatic actors who have a wound And he said, callall him. so I called Richard at home several months ago I said, Richard, do you remember when you did the John Garfield show for us? Youd started to tell us about your theory Every dramatic actor in the thirties and forties has an off has a wound I said, can you talk to me about that? Because frankly, we have the transcript somewhere, but it's inid Did our office is in David's loft. He has a big loft. and David was having construction work. We couldn't get to anything at the at that moment. And I needed to know what he had to say He said, sure He said, My feeling is that every actor of the thirties and forties who played in dramatic roles, not necessarily not comedies Even now, he says has an off stage wound. I said, you mean in real life. When he said off stage, I thought that's what he meant. He said, No, I mean off stage as the character that the audience may never be told about For instance, he said the best example is take a look at Humphrey Bogart's face, the moment you see him in Casablanca. He's got a wound And you know that before it's explained in the script. So he didn't mean the actor had it in his personal life. He meant it was a device that the actor was using. And you know what he's doing? No. Richard is describing to me a method and Richard is not a method actor He wasn't trained in the method. So all the actors of that ul Money. So we could look for that John Garfield had a wound. Right. He said the best example be talk to us about gentlemen's agreement, you know, in which Garfield has a very small part, but it's a pivotal. what a powerful s. And he said, you know, and Richard described, he says, you know, a drunk bumps into his chair and he's sitting there in full dress uniform because he plays in military. officer and the drunk bumps into his chair with his buddy and he said to him, sorry man, sorry. Hey, you know something I don't like you know the scene? Yeah. I don't like officers. And Garfield laughs and he says, it's funny, I don't like officers either And the guy says Hm, What's your name? And Garfield gives him his character's name which is a Jewish less. Name And he said, and I particularly don't like Yids As Richard said, I was doing the interview and I was as close as I am to this microphone to him maybe this far. and Richard said, he shocked the hell of me. He said to me, He goes from this lighthearted, easy going scene And he's suddenly in that guy's face faster than you can spit That's the wound. He said it's usually a wound that has to do with lost love But sometimes it has to do with racial Bot tree. And that's what that wound was in that movie Eacting, I think they teach That actors should create a backstory that it's a story Lence doesn't know about. No but that's exactly what Richard talking. Yeah. This is the back He said in the back story there's going to be a wound someere And he says that may not be in the script, but as an actor. find it. It's fascinating. I're going to look for it now. And you named Universal Studios. back to Universal. When I was a kid, they had all the old movies on TV and I watched all of them. the old gangster Bogard and Robinson Cagney and The mute everything But I fell in love, of course, with the old monster movies And universal were the kings of the Monster movies. It was such a joy to do the universal story because of that. you were f twenty eight still exists, which is the original Phantom stage. No with the st Oh wow. With the Paris opera boxes there. I think I read that they tore it down. Oh. It wasn't it supposedly haunted. Did we mention that we somebody saying that the original phhantom of the opera was shot on stage We didn't say that. O stage twenty eight. The original nineteen twenty Chy fiveive V Lon Cheny Phantom of the Art. Gilbertelly. they built the stage especially for that. What did you find out about the old movies and how they became masters of Monster How long I love this. I love long it does. Universal kind of stumbled into the horror movie thing Carl Lamley brought a lot of Germans over. Uncle Carl. Uncle Carl.t we talk about that. Uncle Carl his teeths done. Uncle Carl who employed his entire family on the Universal City lot And it made his son the head of production at one point, which everybody said, this is gonna be a total disaster, you know. We were gonna to interview Carla Lemley for the show. Yes She just passed away. you. Yeah, ye. What was at the time Right after we wrote her name. We wrote her name down and she passed away. No. Yes.. The irony is that Carl Junir. ended up producing some of the best movies that Universal had So they were wrong, but whoo knows how that happened. But when a lot of these German filmmakers that came over in the silent era We're experimenting with this sort of impressionistic lighting that was very common in in German film likeike Kalagari and those kind of things those films and they They realized about Cl Lemle realized that some of these films were extremely effective when they were takaking, telling these rather supernatural strange stories and they kind of stumbled into it Then they got the rights to Dracula The stage played Dracula And they were not going to use Bella Lgosi. They were going to use Wellan Cheney And Lon Cheney died, died So they brought in Lugosi, who'd done the stage play And of course, the rest is history. Big break. And I heard that at one point, there was even a note sent down that said no Lgosi They're right. Yeah they're right. I think you're right. And I think Lgosi said they They considered every single actor in Hollywood Plus Lemley's cousins and nephews. children. Unbelievable. I mean, all and apparently he really, there's an article which I can send you by email that was s us about how many people he saved from the Holocaust Car Limle didid not know that I supporting theirre coming over sponsoring them coming over. People like Mernao and I don't know. I can't tell you off the top of my head, but I have the article. It was sent to me by email. Because that was always something that that bothered me. power. the studios had and they were mainly Jews Were they doing anything?? Universal had a huge German subsidiary as well. all the studios were heavily invested in Germany. So there was this tremendous conflict they that the heads had. As you say,s all the heads of the studios were Jews. And yet and they but they had this business interest in Germany So even though everything was going on there that they could see was pretty dire, They were very conflicted about what to do. By the way, to this day, Richard Dreyfus As recently as two months ago, he's in Europe at the moment, so I haven't talked to him for a while What he does is teach civics You know, he's teaching civics He's He's a Oxford fellow. He went to Oxford for three years and he teaches civics all over the world. I did't know that. And a smart actor love that figure. We just talked about him on the previous podcast, The Goodbye Girl, which we both love. Yeah. Anyway, Richard U Richard was crazy about the story of Carl Lemley and how he gambled the studio and lost it. On showboat. On That's a wonderful And Richard's a terrible story. R has said to us, every time I talk to him and every time we see him Two of you should do a series of documentaries, hold on to your chair, a series of documentaries tracing the entire history of the movie industry I said Richard, You're out of your mind. He says another twenty five years I. He said to me, he said to me, you're wrong. I said, first of all, we're not qualified to do that. We don't know very much. I mean, we know about the sylland herea, but I can't claim that I'm an expert on silent film Joan, you don't know how much you and David know I said Richard How much money do you think this series of yours, this concept is gonna cost? Do you know how much money studios charge for a film clip these days? We'd get them all for free. I said, reallyally? Who do you know up there? I mean, he's unbelievable. He keeps talking to me about that over and over and over. I said, Richard Give it up. It's not gonna happen As far as like the famous Germans, there was well, Kulfrend. Sure he directed the mummy, right? Yeah Cfre And the cinematography for Dracula. He was the cinematography Dracula. And Brillant Kurtiatamach. Who was the screenwriter of all those you know, the Wolfman. Yes, yes, yes, the later ones. And you know, William Wire was a lemly relative. We didn't know that until you told us before? It's good stuff. I don't know how, I don't know if it's a nephew or if he's a cousin, I don't know, but Lemley sort of gathered. Well this business of hiring members of family sounds crazy, but it's actually paid off a few times. And and the beginning of Dracula is his granddaughter is the first line. Yes in Dracula in the carriage. So Dracula did well so well that that they realized they had something monster films and they they know what happened and they went all in, huh? At the same time they shot Dracula They had a night crew. and we interviewed The leading lady of the Spanish they did the Spanish version at night with the same costumes, the same sets and different accents. we should explain in those days, they didn't take an English language film and dub it They actually produced separate films for other markets And because the Spanish market was so big, they would often produce a Spanish language version of exactly the same film Same sets They the same actors Same sets, same lighting, incredible. sameame script and just did a whole in Spanish. the leading lady for the Spanish version whose name is Lupita Tovar Who is the mother was the mother of the actress Susan Conner and the wife of the agent Paul Conner. I know that name. Isy Billy Wellldererss agent I think he was Oh he was a huge. Yeah. Yeahah, I think he was. Lupita Tavar told us that the costumes were often the same, but not hers She said in the American version, the costumes were quite, you know fine demure. And she says, my costume, you know, dipped down to there for the ne line really plunged and for the Spanish version. I heard they would pass by each other When the American actors and crew were going home They would see them the Spanish actors come in Hey, how are you? You know what know the line we used in our show because we go from We go from a clip from American Dracula with Bella Lgosium Dracula and suddenly U we cut Exactly the same scene. The exact same scene with Soyraculus. Soracula. So Richard the line we used for the narration was Richard Dreif is saying No, we haven't rewound the film. Did they just do didid they do a Spanish Frankenstein and a Spanish mummy? Did they do? know but don't know because they stopp doing it at a certain. I see. I don't know when they stopp, but there's certainly a Spanish dracula. whichich interestingough for people who are technical like me was in much better shape becausecause the the Britishul English Dracula film sorry, the English speaking Dacula film had been used so many times, the negative was beaten up Whereas the Spanish Draculular film was almost immaculately And you know what else Richard loved is that show people that got away that The studio didn't sign Tyrone power. Universal, you meant. Yeah. Yeah. Elizabeth Taylor. They all made mov, Betty Davis Rudolph Valentinear Carl was not batting a thousand. No, no, no, no, He made a few mistakes. And so did so did Cerry Coh, by the way. He lost Marilyn Monroe. Yeah, that was in a book Now another one with a sad end in Hollywood is Montgomery Cliff Also a brilliant actor. Yes. I'm not an expert on Monggomic, but you're right, What a tragic story. Get out.. Oh sorry. Okay. It we're here by mistake since you brought a parry cone and you also did the Columbia story He I found this interesting. Gilbert and I were talking about the famous joke where every Harry Cohen's funeral was so well attended. he was what was what was the joke? It Red skull Red Sull. Yeah, Gilbert heard it as as Georgie Jessll I the jokes get attributed to different people. wasnt said give the people, you know, there was a huge turn buttons, you mean? Red buttons or redcaill Red skcaill. Give the people what they want and they'll turn up ot a well liked man. No But you know what we found? and it's in the show. We found home movies Associate producer tracked down one of Harry Cohn's daughter in law daughters in law who had her father in law's scrapbooks And Oh movies And there's Harry Coomb hugging his children Birthday party for his children different side Amazing. He had a reputation as such a tyrant. He was F Yes. We will return to Gilbert Godfried's amazing colossal podcast, but first a word from our sponsor Can you explain the story how Katherine Hepburn met Peter O'toole ot better to handle that one, Dav Take it, David. is not when they met. I'. Gilbert. Okay. This was during the lineu. Why didn't we know this is coming of course? Yes no. We had to cover.' to know who your host is. They were making the line in Winter which was Peter O'toull's movie and he'd asked for Catherine Hepurn to be to star in it with him and she said, Make it before I die when she got the script. So they were filming in England And She had arrived but he hadn't met her on the set and He's in his in his dressing room And u There's a knock on the door And he says, come in, not knowing you who it is and he's taking a leak into these sinks. 't That's how that happenathin had been understood. And he told us he had to pretend he wasn't doing that L like the scene in my favorite year where he goes in the ladies room. Yeah. By the way, I have to tell you when we were filming the filming Peteru in England in London in his house The British crew was incensed that you tell that story Really? Oh, yes. offffended by it? Yes. David, who's British I don't think was incensed. Where you? Were you incensed D never ask Kate to tell us that story. The story is about Hepburn in the book. I mean, everybody knows she was a fire brand and her reputation was well known. I never knew she spat in Joe Menowitz's face. Oh my God Thats that's That was because goes back to Monteclftt That's the Monte Clift story, yes, that she when when they were making suddenly last suddenly last summer U Monier I think he had an accident not long before and he was in he was actually in very I think he was leaving a party and it was like right down the hill from the party that he ramed into a tree or. Yes, Yes. He'd had an accident. he'd recovered, but he was in pretty bad shape And he was pretty fragile both physically and mentally. and Kate felt that Mankkowitz had really treated him badly Mankitz was the director of the movie. O Jo Mankitz, a director of all about Eve Yeah as well Yes. which we almost lived, but that's another story. we'll do a part two. she didn't say anything to Mankoit until very end and she did what she thought was her last scene and she went up to Joe and she said, Do you need me anymore, Joe, is that it? I said, No, we don't need you anymore, Kate, that's it. Now We've taken all your scenes now She spat in his face and walked off and said, That's for the way you treated Monty, Mty and they never spoke again And he had extensive he had to have his face reconstructed. Yes I remember hearing a story Murf Griffin told guy he got a knock on his door. A guy came to Merv Griffin's house And he was standing there and he's He was looking at a total stranger. And he goes, you don't know me either And he walked away and he realized it was Montgomery Cliff to see if anyone recognized him Can I give you littleor corollary an ending to the Joe Manka sureure When were we were doing the Sencer Tracy Legacy? What? Coroll? Yeah Br. It's a British corollary Yes the British.. I just nod in my head and of the wrong word anyway. I'm pronunci it. I tend to ask questions which could get me in trouble. I just go o, I know that. Anyway, there were a couple of people that we felt were important to Spencer Trace's story But we weren't going to invite on to the show without getting Kate's permission. and one was Mankoitz And we said we're thinking that we should talk to Joe Anankkowitz for this show. And she said, yes, you have to He was so important in Spencer's life So Joe you contacted him, I think and asked him if he would come and be interviewed. And he said, just can't know And we said yes. She does know, she wants you to be interviewed. And when he turned up and And he said, You're sure Kate's okay with us. He said, yes, tears started rolling down his cheeks. Wow and the same The same somethingomet similar happened with Garson Carson Canan, who had betrayed her trust by taking notes at all their v on all their vacations together with Ruth Gordon and Kate and Spencer And he then published a book called Tracy and Hepurn and she just banned him from her life immediately And we said to her, We decided we'd better take the bull by the horn What do we do about Garson You gott to ask him Garson and Spencer were really close, and you have to ask him. And Garson wrote some of their great movies And so We called him and the first thing he said was no And then he called a Sath guy. And he said, Okay, I'll do it and then Kate invited him after years, she invited him to have dinner And she told us that he'd been to dinner and she said I'm back in touch with Garson. I'll never trust him because I think he's writing it all down, but we're back in touch. Tell us some of the Michael Jackson stuff. Gilbert and I were really enjoying this. Yeah, we will think The Katherine Hepburn Michael Jackson relationship Which whichich I frankly never understood, but you guys had a front row.'s back tongoen p. It's an onngoen Pun story, really?. And it's a Jane Fonder onng Goven pun story. Yes. We're sitting in Hepin's house having lunch And I saw a book on her side I said are you reading that book And she said, No, it was left here by Michael when he came to dinner notot long ago I said, Michael And she said, Oh, yes, Michael Jackson. And she saw the look on David's in my face You know, the woman hasn't won four Oscars for nothing. I knew she. She guys had to play. She said, yes. Does it surprise you that we're friends And I said, you want to tell me this story? I said, I don't think it's a match made in heaven in my mind, okay? She said, OkayK, here's what happened. Shall I tell this story? Well I'll tell the beginning you tell.. She said we were we were shooting on Golden pond. Jane said to me, I'm going away for the weekend, but I've got a friend that's coming that's been staying here And would you mind They're looking after him for the weekend. And it turned out to Michael Jackson Kate said, What am I just said to Jane, What am I going to do with this young kid? I don't know. She said, Don't worry he adores you. You'll get on fine together So Jane had found gu Jane had found Michael a room in an attic of an old house up at Squam Lake where they shot on Golden New Hampshire. So Saturday comes the weekend and Kate goes to that house and goes upstairs And Michael opens the door and you know, he talked in this little sweep hand of voice Miss Hepperurn, thank you for coming Don't you ever do your laundry because everything was all over. He said, Well, you see Miss Heprin, somebody usually does that for me Let's go, pick up all those clothes We're going down the street to a laundromat This is a scene I find very hard to visualize, but she told us it's true. Aren Heern and Michael Jack with a bag full of dirty going into the local into a public laundry. Yes. That's a roll of quarters. Can you imagine you sitting there, watching your laundry going around and thinking, Oh, I'm hypnotized by this. It's not really happening. Okay So I said So what happened next? She said we went to the laundromat and I taught him how to put the quarters in the machine. And as we're sitting there, watch she says, people were rather astonished to start with, but then they got used to it and then they went around their own business. And she said, As we're watching the clothes tumble around, I said to him, Michael, take off those goddamn sunglasses. I want to see your eyes Yes, Yes, Miss Hepperurn. Take off the glasses She said, Then he came to dinner when he was in town in New York. And I said, what would you like to eat? And he said, I'm a vegetarian, Ms. Hepin, all vegetables, please. She says, So Nora, her housekeeper went out and created this absolutely beautiful dinner with all the colors of fresh vegetables. And when Michael arrived, she said, Michael, which is your favorite vegetable And he said iflower. She's the one vegetable we didn't buy. She said, but I was going to let him discover that for himself when he didn't see it on the platter. So she said And he said to me during that dinner, You know, Miss. Hepin, I'd like to read some good books. Could you recommend some She says, so I took I asked my niece, Kathy Houghton, who was in guess who's coming to dinner playing her daughter. Remember that? Yeah, sure. Kathy Houghton. She says, I asked Kathy to take Michael to Bnt Tan's or whatever it was at those at that time. And he came back, they came back with three huge shopping bags filled with hardcover books And she said, he proudly showed me what they bought. First of all, I want to see Michael Jackson in the store picking up Okay, that's another scene that should be in a movie. But anyway. so she says and he happened to leave that one behind right over there. She says, I'll bet he's never cracked the spine of one of them So then she said The story goes on, she said, he then invited me to one of his concerts at Medison I said, didid you go? Well, I didn't want to go, but of course, you know, he insisted, please, Miss. Epurn, please, Miss Epurn So she said, I took Phyllis. Phyllis was her assistant who was older than Hepburn.. Phllis was supposed to look after Hepburn, but itten was the other way, right? I. Phyllis used to be Constant Collier's assistant. and when Constant Collier got very sick, she said to Hepburn, takeake care of Phllis. So Hepburn adopted Phyllis. Phyllis was a British school mom type. She was wonderful by that. Oh, wonderful. Butter wonder. No, no, no, no, you mustn't do that, miss. Very, very pretend. Very. Okay Well, Phyllis and Hepurn to I was afraid of Phyllis. Not afraid of K, I was afraid of Pyllis. Pyllis, two octogenarians. and Kate's great niece Skyler. decided who was seventeen, decided to attend this concert at Madison Square Garden, where Michael arranged third row seats They walked down the aisle and, you know People are People were a little stunn. I mean Even young kids knew who Catherine Hepin was, even though that was Michael's main audience, right So they sit in the third row, Katherine Hepard had no clue that when you go to a rock concert, the main star is not the first person to appear. She know there was an opening act. That's right So they're sitting there and somebody's carrying on loudly, you know, the decibel level was normal Let's get out of here. I can't stand this. He's late. age she was more than on time. She was always Al forty five minly You could not give her a call time because she'd show up forty five minutes before that. whatever. So she says, let's get out of here. Skyler said Aunt Cath, they called her Aunt Kath Aunt Kath, we can't leave. He knows we're here. Please, stick it out. All right, she says, and on top of which, he's not late. this is the opening act. Well, then why didn't he tell me so we could arrive later And Skyler said, No, no, no, we had to be in our seats when the concert started Well The Openak finishes and out comes Michael doing Mike being Michael on stage, which is not the soft spoken little kid. Yeah. The hand on the grindyating and he's pelvic bumping and o Pppern says. I'm leaving, he's lewed. I don't ever want to see him again Por Skylar, seventeen says Aunt Kath We can't leave. he's expecting us backstage That had to be another scene in a movie Well, they all trape backstage, troop backstage and the door the stage door opens and in walks Katherine Hepurn and Michael comes out to greet her back in his sweet voice. And she says in a voice that had hold backstage could. Michael, what the hell was that! You're lewd and you're vulgar And he said, Miss. Hepin, that's what I do when I perform. Well, don't ever do it again I doubt they the best advice. I doubt that she ever ever went to another Jackson concert, but he was smart enough not to take that advice. Boy what an odd couple. Well, he loved Elizabeth Taylor, Jane Fnda. you know But there are photographs of them together Its a true story. It's not made up. How did he become friends with Jane Fnda because she's the one who introduce. I have no idea. I don't know the answer to that. Somehow they knew each other from Los Angeles and she invited him to the set. and he liked the idea. You know, he obviously contacted famamous lady stars. Elizabeth Taylor was crazy about them. He was to sorter around town And apparently he was very sweet with them and Catherine Heemard was in no mood for this craziness Now this is a ridiculous story. that I'm sure is total bull. But I have to say it anyway, Allegedly, there's a popular story that after september eleventh Michael Jackson panicked his two friends Elizabeth Taylor and Marln Brando squeezed into a car together and try to make a run for it. This is a new one on me Now if you told us that earlier, we would have put it in the book. told you that story. I I had heard this story as Brando even around still, I imagine, I guess he was. and How how they could have gotten like three feet without a tremendous crowd gathering around? Well, Katherine Heemperard walked into a laundroman. What else But speaking of Vulgar and lewd, some some subjects actually escaped you guys over the years, peopleeople you wanted to feature in documentaries and which Vulgar was people you're talking about I was referring to miss Detrich Actually specifically. there's there's something in the book how her response to your you guys approaching or was unprintable? I think that was the words you used. Well we approached a number of people and She seemed like a prime candidate to do a story about Fascinating life. Oh my. goodness, what a wonderful show that would have been But the time she was she was living in Paris So we didn't have any contact, but we did have an address. so we wrote her a letter would you Tell us threeory what you said in the no d. I'll fill in the blanks. I want to hear Joan say it This Thank goodness, we're not on television. It's only the interternet, Joe. That's She wrote back David has the letter, the original letter. At least she wrote. Yes, she responded I have no wheat What we tried to do is goer into it by saying If you don't let us tell your story and you tell it yourself, somebody will do it. Yeah, you're probably figure anybody can do it. Why don't you let us tell it with you? affectionately? Yes. We've being very nice about it I don't give a Damn Who tells my story and how Basically she told us to L go D't say the word In German or English. Hey, that was't Eish. Okay there. Now, Frank and I were talking that Judy Garland. used to talk to President Kennedy? This is my favorite thing of the book, maybe. The twouth besides Michael and Kate at the laundroromat. Oh, you don't like Betty Davis? I loved all of it. one This one really got Some of these there was a story when we were doing the Judy Garland program With all these shows, you research, research, research, research And there's a famous authorized book about Judy by Joe Frank It's called Judy. C Jud. bigig sick And there was a wonderful story in it about about Judy Garan and President Kennedy But it was too good, it seemed too good to be tr And told to the author by Judy's daughter who the author, Gerald Frank, quotes Liza telling him this story. And the chapter in our book is excuse me is really about how we went about verifying the story because the story is that Well, let me, can I just interrout. What happened was Lorna was our host. Lorna lo Liza's half sister, Judy's daughter And I said, Laurna, I've read the Judy biography and there's a story that lies it tells in the book about your mother calling at the end of a work week when she was doing her live television show At the end of a work, we she the phone and in front of Liz and say what a week, I think I'll call Jack. And Liza would hear her mother dial the White House and ask to speak to President And Laura said to me, look, I know the story She said, but just as a general piece of information, let me tell you something We're a family filled with liars I said, Larna, you're hosting this show. You're not giving me a warm, secure feeling. I don't like that statement at all She says, I'm telling you the truth I said, Is that the truth? Are you lying now? So she said, I think that story is true, but I wasn't in the house. So it's Les's story So So why didn't we call Liza I don't know. Well, Liza was supposed to do the show. She already stood us. That's right. Lizjah stood us up once son. You guys have a fun Michael Jackson, Katherine Hepburn kind of chemistry. No, you know what it's known as George and Gracie that Everybody talks about us a little and Gracie. And by the way, I've been the victim of his British wit. No. M No, no, no, no. She just misunderstands. So what was it that actually happened when she would call the the White House. Well, the story is that she'd call the White House and and lies ahead chatting with the president And then suddenly she'd burst into song and start singing m sorry You're missing the big coins. the cameras, you can't see me. the two of you get your story straight next time. She would say, Liza would hear her mother say, again, you really want me to do that. Okay, somewhere and she'd sing eight bars of over the rainbow into the phone. So President Kennedy would always ask Judy Garland sing somewhere over the high love it. So we decided Thanks to Lorna telling me a family filled with liars, I decided we even though it's an authorized biography, who knows? rightight I decided we have to check we decided to check out this story because as you guys know, Judy Garland's life and career. was swirled for years with rumors some of which true and some of which not true, right We didn't want to perpetuate false rumors in our show If we can help it So The mission began. The person I wrote to was Jacqueline Onassis at her apartment on fififth Avenue And I asked on public television stationary, no less, okay? I love your life. You're writing to to Jackie Oassis to ask her if this story is true about about Judy Carlin singing over the Rinb. Well Jackie was an editor a Double day And she was a started her life as inquiring photographer. I mean, she knows what it means to check out a story and I'm not writing from the National Equirr. I'm writing from the public television WNET So I told her that there is a story. I did not tell her that it's attributed to Liza Mineneelli that was a bad idea I just told her that there is a story that Judy Garland used to call the White House and that the president would always never let her off the phone without asking her to sing a little bit of over the rainbow Could you please confirm for me that the story, couldould you tell me whether you were whether the story is true or not And three days later I get a call from a woman named Nancy Tuckerman, who used to be the Social secretary to Jac Jacqueline Kennedy in the White House years. And she was her assistant a double day at this point. Is this Joan Kramer? Yes. I said She said Nancy Tuckerman for missses Onassis. I said misss. Tuckerman, how nice of you, thank you for calling I'm replying to your letter that you said to mrisss. Onassis. She wants me to tell you the story is not true Well I was stunned. I then said, Mrs. Tuckerman, I think I have to tell you something The story appears in the only at that point. the only authorized biography in extant of Judy Garland by Gerald Frank And it quotes the story com the story comes from and is quoted to the author by Judy's eldest daughter, Liza Mineneelli You're saying the story is not true. That means Liz is lying not only about a president of the United States, but about her mother There was a dead silence. And she said, well If the story comes from Miss Medell, maybe Jackie just wasn't in the room when the phone calls came in And as David said to me time. You sounded a bit like you're giving a lecture, which I realized I said, Mrs. Tuckerman, I had nothing to lose at that point. I said, Mrs. Tuckerman Please forgive me if my facts are wrong here But Mrs. Onassa started her a career as an inquiring photographer. She married a senator who became the president of the United States. Then she married a world statesman and now she's an editor at a big publishing house called Douled D. I think she knows what it means to check out a story. If she wasn't in the room, shouldn't her answer have been I don't know Story not true and I don't know are not the same thing I said, what did she actually say? Was any part of the story true? Did he not always ask her to sing She said, to be honest with you, she sent it to me into her office. You sent the letter to her apartment, and she wrote on the top of it, Please call Joan Kramer's story not true. I said, mr. Tuckerman, would you do me a favor and ask her if any part of that story is true? Because frankly, I'm stunned that Liza would make up the entire story She said Okay, I'll try. neverever heard from her again, which I knew would happen So I told David Jen, it's your story for David. You're on your ownavid is Jo when Joan does research, she's very tenacious. Just like Gilbert.. For this show. Yes David. So David said to me You wrote a book, right? So David said to me, David said to me, I think that's the end. It's probably not true I said, David, I'm not giving this up yet. My next call was to Ted Kennedy's office in Washington, and I got his press secretary. who said, I don't think the senator is going to know the answer to this, but I'll ask him And he called the press secretary called back and said, The senator does not know But he recommended that you call Evelyn Lincoln, who was John F. Kennedy's personal secretary in the White House, hereere's her number. She lives in Pennsylvania It's amazing. You follow us to the end of the eararth. It's amazing that people actually give you all this information. Oh abolutely You want us to wrap up. Anyay, so I called Evelyn Lincoln And she said to me, the story is absolutely true. I said, Mrs. Lincoln, how do you know that She said, becausecause if anybody called the president that was well known, it got had to be put through to me first And sometimes I was still on the line when I heard him ask her to sing I said, thank you so much. So I go to David and I said, David We have one confirmation and one denial Right I've got to break the tie It suddenly hit me that in two offices away from me at channel thirteen was the office of Caroline Kennedy, who worked for the Metropolitan Museum of Art think that I would have caught ont to that one a little earlier, but I didn't, okay? I suddenly thought, Joeie, you're really being a dummy. G talk to Caroline. So I went to Caroline and I said, Caroline, did you ever hear family lore that had Judy Garland calling your father in the White House and asking her to sing over the rainbow She said, No, but it's a great story. You're going to use it? because she knew what we were doing. And I said, I don't know because I want to confirm the story. I said, I did talk to Evelyn Lincoln at your uncle's suggestion, I didn't tell her about her mother. I left that part out I said, I called Evelyn Lincoln and she told me the story is true, but I really want to No, you know, I thought maybe you might have heard about it, you know, even though you were young. She said, Look, I did know Judy Garland and Sid Lft and their families. They used to rent a house in Hyannesport in the summers And my cousins were their kids' ages. I was too young cousins of mine, my cousins played with their kids more than I knew the kids. She said, but I know who'll know the answer to this Now I've got to tell you something that I'm going that's not in the book, okay? This is you can hear this. I almost made the blunder of all When I told this story to David, he said, Oh no. I swear to you that memories play games When I wrote about this ch in this chapter about this story, I remember Caroline saying to me, I swear, she said I know who will be able to confirm this story Call Kenny O'Donnell at the John F. Kennedy Library and tell him I told you to call That's what I wrote down in the original version in the book, okay? To make a long story short, let me finish the actual story and then I'll tell you what happened that's not in the book, okay I called the library And I spoke to the person I spoke to. They connected me and he said, The story is absolutely true. I said, how do you know? He said, becausecause she used to call at the end of a Friday, we were still in the overvall office. and he used to hold the phone away so I could hear her sing I said, I love you. thank you. and we used it in the show took me. about three weeks to confirm the story. It takes fifteen seconds to show in the program with a clip, right? Okay. That's how long. Now fast forward, I write this story for the book And I said to David, because we say in the we said in the first version of the story that Caroline was and still is president of the John F. Kennedy Library and Foundation in Massachusetts And I said to David, you know something? I better check her title Because she's now the ambassador to Japan, maybe she's not the president anymore. Well. I started Googling and I fell over a fact that almost made me pass out Kenneth O'Donned died seven years before we ever produced this program Caroline did not tell me to call Kenneth O'Donnell, she told me to call David Powers I al if I hadn't gone looking for Caroline's title, I we would have published Kenneth O'Donnell and some astute critic would have said Joan Kramer think she talks to dead people and worse that Caroline Kennedy told her to call him I'm a Kenny buff, so I know all those you believe that I I mean that was so I said to David, from now on with a toothcb, we're checking everything Iota of this book Memories are funny. I could swear she told me Keneth died. Unfortunately, when it comes to the truth of the story, we have two memories going on We have our files And Joan Joan kept notes and date books. I have every date that we met lunch for Katherine. We know we're pretty damn close just about. That's a lot of research. And we walked around with a camera everywhere, so all the pictures are mainly ours. I wish it had been the trolley song instead, it would have made a better story. Frank. Don't you think? Clang, clang, Kang went the trolley G very good. Thank you Nice voice Now you have another career there He sings on every show.. You really do, I. Yeah. Do you join? No. No, he's quite the I thought maybe you do harmony. No. Now before we wrap up, the worst part We were just talking about the worst hosts are the ones that bring it about themselves So so you're gonna to do that? Yes. Okay.. How about. When I was a struggling comic, I was a teenager and I used to work The concessions in the Broadway theaters seelling t shirts and stuff And They were doing matter of gravity starring Katherine Hepburn and an unknown George Christopher Christopher Reeves Uh and And we got to know Katherine Hepper would come before the audience arrived and talk to us And she once invited us So I went to Katherine Hepburn's house And Turtle Yeah And And she one time gave me a book of James Cagney's autobiography that I still have that she autographed to me. Cagney by Cagney? Yes. I have it. Yeah. I have Cagney's autograph in there Oh love this Saring you one up What's what? I'm sorry. I didn't say she's so on my story. Damnit. I thought I would end it with me being the great one here. You are the great We're gonna dive in every We are down on our knees now if people can't see it We're bvelling And we're bowing we're bowing our heads Okay I'm Gilbert Gottfried. This has been Gilbert Gtfried's amazing colossal podcast with my co host Frank Santo Padre. comoming to you from Nutmeg Post and the courtesy of our friend Frank Vederosa. withith two Nut guests. Thank you, Frank. And tonight we've been interviewing Joe Kramer and David Healley and we just upon just a tiny bit of what you'll find in the book in the Company of Legends. There's so much we didn't get to. Frank Sinatra drunks at the premier Also could I tell you that Dick Cabot, my former boss and still my friend has agreed to introduce David and me at an event that we're doing in connection with the book at the New York Public Library on june fourth. Great. Which I think is very sweet. C Gilbert and I come? Yes, please We love. We'd love to be there. Can we get lunch out of it? Th I can't out It's It's six hundred thirty It's not lunch. We loveved it. Cavy was our first guest O the broadcast. Yes. He was a great gu. We adore him. great. We want to have him back.' so funny. Oh David, you know, David's a British w. David's tried to at one point, you know, Barb trade Barbs, he realized I gave up very quickly me. Well, he was a joke writer and a adian. And you used to get the guest Dick haveave it. I got an array of. Jim was a talent coordinate on his show. I mean because his guest, the Dick Habbot show was always like Wow, these are people you don't find on any other talk show Not just that. Well, I always say The dick Dick's show was not just a talk show, it was a reflection of the times in which we were living. And so therefore Unfortunately, he had a lot a lot of people walk out on him. Yeah. People like, you know, when he called Lester Maddox a goddamn bigot. Lester Maddo says I'm leaving unless you apologize. and Dick said, I'll apologize to anybody that I've called a goddad bigot who swears to me that they're not. Well, Lester Maddoxs didn't buy into that little ruse and out he walked. Laving Dick. I told you, we never stopped tape Dick had a full time Lily Tomlin walking out. I remember Lillily Tomlin walking out because this is Chad Everet. Brillant. I was watching. Ch Chad Everet decided that his time wasn't up yet. I remember decided to ask the entire panel What is your favorite possession? I'll start with myself. My favorite possession is my wife. Lillily got up and said, Dick, invite me back. I'm leaving. you remember that show? And of course the Norman Mailer Gell show which Dickas know, we tried to do a show. a retrospective of Dick's shows, and he narrated the little clip whel we put together for us I mean, it's just great. Unfortunately residualill Oon Wells and Oliver and everyone. Betty Davis, you know, that's the famous show. You know the show, right?. John Lennon, George Harrison, But you remember what happened with Betty Davis turned you know, he said he knew a straight line when heard it And she said he said to her, how did you handle all those gossip columnists in Hollywood. And she said, you mean Loretta Luella Parsons and Hah Hopper And he said, Yeah, okay for the And she said, you know, I'm a Connecticut Yankee. I never had a problem with somebody asking me a question that I didn't want to answer and I would have a Some people think they have to answer everything I used to say Um You know, I'd really rather not discuss that. And she said they usually respected it. And Dick said, knew a straight line when I heard it. So I said to her Well, Miss Davis, I think we've kept this on a pretty high level. She said, yes, she says, I wouldn't expect you to say anything that I wouldn't want to answer but if you did, I would say I'd rather not discuss that So he said, Well, I'm very glad you feel that way Betty, when did you lose your virginity Yes. and Once again. good stuff. Gilbert Gtfried's amazing colossal podcast. I'm Gilbert Gtfried. I'm here with my co host, Frank Santo Padre at Nutmg Studios. And we've been talking to Joe Kramer and David Healy. proved once again After we ended this show, they still had more stories that are in the book. Yeah, that are in their book in the Comany of Legend. And tellell us real quick when the book comes out Al of A Aprilpril sixteenth It's a wonderful read. Thank you guys for doing that. Thank you so much.. It was a treat.. We had a great time