Reflecting on American Exceptionalism and Decline

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK Odoo provroviding tools for businesses across industries into one fully integrated platform, whatever your business needs, Odu is committed to providing it. Learn more at OdWo d. com self directed invvesting trrading Full service wealth management, automated investing, financial planning, thematic investing, retirement planning. few and to think That's just a small taste of what Schwab offers The Geschwab knows that when it comes to your finances Choice matters No matter your goals, investing style, life stage or experience, Schwab has everything you need, all in one place So you can invest your way Visit Schwub d. com to learn more Hi, it's Celia Hatton here from the Global News podcast. As the United States celebrates its two hundred fiftieth anniversary, we've teamed up with our sister podcast, The Global Story to answer your questions about America's impact on the world. It's a great listen This episode is part of a special series The Global Story has been doing, as host Asma Kalid explains To hear more episodes, search for the Global Story, wherever you get your BBC podcasts This week as the United States celebrates two hundred and fifty years since its founding, we here at the Global Story have been marking the moment too, with a very special series exploring the surprising and often hidden ways that the United States has shaped the modern world Is the world a better place for having the United States in that? interestnteresting question I think I have to have enough pride in my country to say yes I feel like the American dream is alive but not well. I believe that future historians will look back. at this very time and conclude that It was the beginning of the end of American Epire. The changes happening in China's economy represent a real threat to the United States's geopolitical hegemony. I was in Kenya and I choose between the two I would choose America. I don't know why I guess it's my first love And today we hear from you. Hi, this is John from Houston, Texas. This is Sonya from Canada. Hi I am To Mindia. I am Mosirena from San Paulo, Brazil From the BBC, I'm Tristan Redman in London I'm Assmahhalid in Washington, D.C. And today on the Global Story, in collaboration with the global newews podcast, we answer your questions about how America has shaped the world. All right, Well, I'm pleased to say that today we're doing something a little bit different here on the Global Story Normally and regular listeners know this. We do a deep dive on one story every single day. And along with our sister podcast, the global newews podcast, where you can go for the latest news headlines every single day twice a day We are teaming up today at the end of our special week of episodes on America's two hundred fiftieth anniversary. We're doing a collab to answer questions from our combined audiences And I'm pleased to say that we have some global news podcast input here with us today in the studio. Celia Hatton. Welcome back to the show. Thank you very much. Yeah. And Celia, I will say, you know, regular listeners of the Global Story podcast will, of course have heard you. You've been a guest on our show. And of course, listeners of the gllobal newews podcast, the show that you host will know you But for Eddiewood Who may be a new listener, could we have you just introduce yourself, tellell us a little bit about what you do in your specific area of expertise? Sure. So my reporting background lies in China. I was a correspondent inside China for fifteen years, the last few years with the BBC. And then I had ten years being regional editor focusing on Asia Pacific For the BBC here in London before I became a full time presenter I should say too that I'm Canadian. so I'm sure you'll be hearing that a little bit today because it definitely factors into my thinking about the US hundred and fiftieth anniversary. Wonderful to have you with us. Well, I'm also pleased to say we're joined by BBC's international editor, Jeremy Bowen. For listeners who are joining us for the first time, Jeremy, how Would you introduce yourself? Well, I've been a BBC journalist now for my entire working life, which is forty two years. and I've been most of that time a foreign correspondent. So I suppose I'd introduce myself by saying I have had a hand in the reporting of most of the major world stories since the late nineteen eighties And as for America, well, I have worked in Washington, but I've also studied in Washington. And Jeremy, is it accurate that you've reported for more than ninety countries? That's the folklore I hear around here at the BBC. Well well you know if you actually average that out per year, it's not very many. mean It's still impressive to me. So welcome back to the show. Let's drive straight in with some questions then. We have one from our listener, John in Texas. and here's what John has to say. Hi, this is John from Houston, Texas I suggest you contrast how the outside world views the USA today versus in the two decades following World War two The changes have been radical Jeremy, over the course of our lifetimes, how has the way the United States is perceived around the world changed? It's interesting The question was about the two decades, and I suppose those two decades, nineteen forty five to nineteen sixty five were in a sense the era of American ascendancy in so many things, because they emerged from the Second World War unlike their European allies. not just with their industrial base intact It was enhanced where you know, poor old Britain were worth sitting was bankrupt America was Rom it And it was certainly a time when America's prestige was high, when People in Europe really admired what the Americans had achieved, there was of course as well, Martial aid, the Marshall plan, which helped rebuild Europe after the destruction of the Second World War America had become a world power in the Second World War And they continue to use that power after the Second World War. They didn't go back to the isolation that they'd had previously back to the foundation of the Republic two hundred and fifty years ago So I think if you were sitting somewhere in West Germany where the Americans were pouring in money, rebuilding industry probably look pretty good and you know, good drinking Coca Cola and Maybe trying your first burger or something like that But if you're in Iran in nineteen fifty three when the British and the Americans unseated pretty much deemocratically elected president or if you were in Guatemala or other parts of Latin America where America was putting its interests first, second, third, and fourth. That really was America first then you might have different views. And of course, by nineteen sixty five That was after the assassination of Kennedy, America was getting very involved In Vietnam And President Johnson, his successor escalated that So after ' sixty five, that's when, you know, America a very flawed world power killing loads of people abroad in the interests of what anti communism or whatever reason they were giving at the time. And of course, with turmoil at home by the nineteen sixties because civil rights movement, assassinations. So yeah, on some levels, America was probably at its apogee in those years of forty five to sixty five, but the seeds of what you might say they've become But very always very much there. Maybe it goes with the territory if you are the global hedgeman When you travel around the world now to various different conflict zones, Do people speak differently about the United States to how they used to or is it much the same Never mind traveling around the world. You just walk out of this building in Central London, you'll find people whose perceptions of the United States, British people have changed massively in the years of Donald Trump. ing The U.S. is not seen. by many people in this country anymore as an ally But I think over the years, for me personally, I have to say being exposed to In a way, the American dream, a sense of possibility and optimism Certainly for the privileged people I was mixing with in Washington, D.C. was Absolutely nothing. we had nothing of a sword in this country For me going to the United States. In the early nineteen eighties broaden my horizons. enormously and gave me a sense of what might be possible in life don't think I would have had Had I stayed in grimeal Britain, which in the early nineteen eighties was not a very happy place. Let me take us on to our next question. We have talked a lot on our show, and Celia, I'm sure you all have as well on the gllobal News podcast about the changing world order and how the United States, in this second Trump term, is taking a more isolationist approach to foreign policy And we have a message here from Sonya in Canada. Let's take a listen. Hi, Asman and Tristin. This is Sonya from Canada. As a close neighbor to the States, the last ten years or so has been really interesting and somewhat concerning to observe. What has contributed to the US becoming more insular and isolationist in recent years? How is this more isolationist path going to shape the country in the years to come? In what ways could the US become stronger or weaker? I feel that we must go first to your fellow Canadian, Sonya, and that is Celia Hatton, from your perspective How do you see the wider impact of an isolationist United States. Ama, it's a good question. And I kind of have to go back to something that Jeremy said a few moments ago. He was talking about how in the past You know, the United States was seen by many countries as a strategic ally that the United States was there And it's interesting listening to Sonia As these questions about why the United States has become more isolationist. You know, when I think about Canada and the reactions of Canadians to Donald Trump coming into the White House for a second term All of those pronouncements sort of crouched as jokes that Canada was going to become the fifty first state. I still remember the real fear almost that kind of rippled through Canada. And it wasn't just that Donald Trump said it once or twice. It kept coming up again and again. In his truth social comments, he would say it on camera. He said it to Justin Trudeau, the then prime minister. And so Governor Treau Exactly Yes. Governor Trudeau, He didn't even give him the title I remember that summer, just after Donald Trump had come back into office. I went home for my annual summer trip back to Canada And I walked into a grocery store called Picon's, which is a famous grocery store I'm from. And like many stores in Canada, it had been completely overhauled so that every single item in the store that was made in Canada was front and centered. There were Canadian flags plastered all over the store And really the entire store had been reworked to become advertisement for Canadian products. That's fascinating. Cilly, you're almost suggesting that the United States isolationist approach is pushing its neighbor to the north to adopt a somewhat similar. I don't want to extrapolate on that, but a somewhat similar approach at least when it comes to economics. So this kind of attitude is almost contagious, this kind of feeling that you need to kind of put up the hatches and just support your own. I think just emotionally, things have really changed with this isolationist bent. and I think Sonia' is right, it's right to kind of focus in on it because that's been a major change that has happened in the United States and it's had huge effects elsewhere Well all of this is contributing to the idea that an old world order is coming to an end. There's been a lot of debate about that over the last few months. We have a question on this tack our listener Swart in India, and this is what he'd like to know. Hi, I'm Sow from India. As the USA celebrates to fifty years of independence and seeks to shape the international order for the decades ahead, where does India fit into that vision? And can India deepen cooperation with Washington while preserving the strategic autonomy That has traditionally defined its relationship with Russia, Iran and the wider global Sth. I would love to hear what you guys have to say about it, Thanks. Well, I would say that actually in a sense, the rise of India is part of America's decline There are other large powers that are rising. you look at India, you know, it's got a growing and very highly educated middle class. It's got a very large population. it's got all sorts of atttributes which in the next fifty odd years I think they will be as a rising power, one of the countries which America will have to deal with. Can I just just a follow up here? Because my sense for the last couple of administrations here in the United States, you can go back to George W. Bush. There was a systematic effort in the United States amongst Republicans and Democrats support India to balance out the influence of China in the region And what I've been struck by in this term is that we don't see that deliberate effort anymore, which makes me wonder where India fits into the equation. I mean, I heard President Trump referred to India his words a big tariff abuser. He slapped really significant tariffs on India. I guess my question is just, is it possible in this moment When we talk about a shifting world order, to be a country that is As we've heard Mark Carney of Canada, say a middle power that isn't really aligned with the United States or with China. Do you remember after the Ukraine invasion, India was under real pressure to say where it stood. You know, W it on Russia's side? Was it on Ukraine's side? And that's difficult because India gets a lot of its energy from Russia. And at the time, Narendra Ramodi, the prrime minister said, we are not neutral, but we have strategic autonomy, meaning that they kind of change their strategy based on what they need at the time They said that back in twenty twenty two and other countries have followed. You know the Europeans are embracing strategic autonomy. Even Mark Carney has said that strategic autonomy is the way to go. And so I think India really has no choice. They need to keep alliances with Iran. That's where they get oil from. They need to keep alliances with Russia, but then they also need to sh ship products outside of their borders. and so they need to maintain their close ties with Western countries as well that are going to buy products that are made in India. They're just a great example of a country that cannot afford to position itself either to one side or another. It's kind of sitting in the middle We're going to move on to talking a little bit about the American Dream Barbara from California has sent us this. Hi, my name is Barbara Yovanovich. I'm from Novisat Serbia I grew up and finished my education there and my family still lives there, so I visit frequently. I never imagined that I would move to the US. I don't think that was my plan Immigrating to the United States has obviously opened up a world of opportunities I never would have had in my home country. This is still very much the land of opportunities I deeply appreciate the idea that if you believe in yourself and you work hard, you can make a positive future for yourself and your family. And I feel like the US really puts that at the forefront. Saya That's me Thanks for listening Now, we had a similar message from our listener, Alexandra, who emigrated to the United States from Ukraine And also from Diana who arrived in the US from Colombia And she said, My family moved to the United States in nineteen eighty seven, which is the summer I turned thirteen. We left Colombia due to insecurity the country was going through at that moment. My parents were the victims of kidnapping by the FAC in nineteen eighty five The US offered my husband neith the promise that if we worked hard, we would live comfortably did and now enjoy a comfortable life thanks to the opportunities offered and accepted Jeremy, you've reporters we've already discussed from unstable places all over the world, conflict zones What does the United States mean to people in those places that you visited? Gally in the places where I have over the last thirty or forty years In many of those places, the Americans were not seen as a positive force becausecause American intervention has had terrible consequences. I've spent many years reporting from different countries in the Middle East Of course, there are other countries where the Americans were seen as absolutely vital. I lived in Israel for five years in the nineties And there, America as it has been until really, very recently, was seen as the absolute reliable Ally Now, as for the American dream, of course, America has always been a magnet for immigrants But also for those people who are well established in the country, One of America's big problems now, and I think it's impacting actually debates about the potential foreign policy in the next five or ten years. is the dissatisfaction with the fact that many people in the United States no longer feel that that dream is open to them They are concerned that their kids won't have the standard of living that they had. and the sort of foreign policy corollary of that is the way in which people are questioning Being the global policeman, intervening around the place having huge and very costly military commitments. in places which on the face of it are not directly impacting on whether or not Americans are safe, but it's still costing them a hell of a lot of money. at a time when a lot of people are thinking, well We could do some of that money back here, thanks. So You know, it's always the case that foreign policy is an extension of domestic issues And America is no exception This is Lip Pondons from Sweiteet three hundred five with Lilip Pondons Swite three hundred five with Lter Pas is brought to you by Durassel Game day at my house, it's chaos, but the fun kind The TV's ready, the remotes are ready, the kids' toys are going off, somebody's blasting music in the kitchen, and suddenly everybody needs batteries at the exact same time That's why I keep my durol batteries stock They keep for twelve years in storage, so you know they're really good whenever you need them Andndurosso just released limited edition Duroso and Messy battery packs The design is inspired by Messi's iconic left leg tattoo Every battery feels like it comes with an extra kick the messy level power for all your everyday devices From the TV remote to automatic corkscrew, Threle keeps us Game dayay ready. 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Size availability varies by crust tank max, seven toppings, six per pan and New York style crust. minimum purchase requred for delivery. Prices, participation, delivery area and charges may vary Pandora jewelry brings the sparkle to your summer. Now with even better prices, enjoy up to fifty percent off select styles, from personalized pieces to must have favorites made for the summer. Teless designs that shine with you through every moment, wherever the summer takes you. Shop in store or online Now through july sixth. T terms and conditions apply, visit pandora. net for details. We're here with Celia Hatton, host of the Global newews podcast, and Jeremy Bowen, the BBC's international editor. And we're answering your questions about how the United States has shaped the world as we celebrate our two hundred fiftieth anniversary here in America. Intriston, you've got a question for Jeremy? You said that a lot of the places you've covered are places where the reputation of the United States is not necessarily that strong Having said that, Asa did this incredible interview in our episode earlier this week with a Somali American called Abdi Somalia is a country which has had a complicated relationship with the United States. It was the Battle of Mogadishu in the early nineties. Abdy talks about the first time he saw these American soldiers arriving in Somalia and giving him this food. and he thought they all looked like Rambo and he thought I want to go to the United States. It looks incredible. Is that rare in your travels Well I was in Mogadeso actually in the early nineteen nineties? Of course you were. Well, look, of course when people turn up like that those sorts of scenes were replicated in Europe in nineteen forty four and nineteen forty five, GIs arriving and people, you know, chewing gum and candy and whatever else they had to chuck out of their cigarettes, probably in those days I donon't get the impression that I think that people around the world, many of them do not admire the Americans the image of America that I think still a lot of Americans might actually have in their heads. as essentially a country that wants to do good around the world That is not shared. in many, many countries And also in places, which have traditionally pretty much liked America, like this country. the UK A lot of people don't think that anymore We want to end with a question from listener Moasir in Brazil. Hello there. I am Mosir Sena from S Pao, Brazil. I was born in Brazil All my life, I've loved and admired and respected America for its values, for its history For the concept of freedom and the pursuit for happiness in a way that's like the American dream However, I've noticed that over the past fifty years, America has lost its way in really upholding freedom end upholding values of respect and mutual growth and development. So my question is, has America reached its top, its apex and now is it in its decline Let's hope that it's not because it still is a light shhining at the top of a hill. Thank you so much. Happy birthday, America Thank you for the birthday wishes. I'd love to hear from both of you, Jeremy and Celia. why' it we start with you, Jeremy? Well what we've just heard is you're the classic expression of admiration for American exceptionalism that it's the shining light on the hill that everybody aspires to that will stand for liberty, freedom But look, here's another way of putting it if I want to be deevil's advocate for a moment The founding fathers were slave owners There was a civil war over slavery in the nineteenth century In the years after that, even though slavery was no more, the effective enslavement of Many African Americans continued Race is still a huge down the center of the country. There are millions and millions of people in America who don't have decent health care who don't have much of a safety net of the kind that we would expect to have in Europe If things go wrong for them. And abroad, America seems to be in a state of perpetual warfare with a lot of countries at the moment So It was interesting in the question as I was listening to it, the sense that his impression was What seemed great half a century ago might not be so great now, but maybe the answer is people are just using a bit more clarity. And the fact is Maybe America isn't exceptional. Maybe America is just a massive imperial Tower works in the way that imperial powers have worked since the dawn of time and there'd been many, many empires going back way beyond the Romans. And yeah, the twentieth century was known as the America by many as the American century. I don' think anyone is going to say that right now that the twenty first century is also going to be The American century. so I would say that Wh it was a great part of America's self image and the impression that many people had of the country that it stood for all these things In fact, if you just, you know look under the stone a little bit, what was happening at home in the States as well as what happened abroad Things were never. perfect E though people inside their own heads and in the things that they said believed that they were. So I'm sounding like a real America skem. I'm not. I think it's a great count. I think Aic America was really important for me in my own life. But I think you need to look at it with some clarity. That's what I'm saying. Can I just say As an American, one of the things that is so powerful about the United States is you're right. You know those ideals, I think many of us are clear eyed that we know the faults of some of the founding fathers. You know, I do think increasingly in the United States, we have had really honest conversations about Did we actually uphold these ideals? No, maybe not historically over the decades I think the appeal of it was that we had these ideals. And so few nations have these founding ideals that they They theoretically strive towards