The Legacy of the Plantagenet Dynasty

from long lost Viking ships and kings buried in unexpected places tales of murder, power, faith and the lives of ordinary people across medieval Europe and beyond Join me, Matt Lewis, Dr. Eleanor Yarneigger, and some of the world's leading historians as we bring history's most fascinating stories to life only on history hit With your subscription, you'll unlock hundreds of hours of exclusive documentaries with a brand new release every week exploring everything from the ancient world to World WarI Just visit historyhit. com Forward slash, subscribe. Hello, I'm Dr. Elean Oianiga, and welcome to Gone Medieval fromrom History Hit a podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history cover the greatest mysteries. Gobpacking details and the latest groundbreaking research from the Vikings to the Normans From kings to popes to the crusades We delve into the rebellions, plots, and murders that tell us who we really were And how we got here The Count of Angjou felt blessed He had a beautiful wife and four healthy children He had only one cause for concern. ignored at him until it grew from a curiosity into a concern. And then Every Sunday when they sat in church his apparently devoted Cess would leave just before the elevation of the host People gossiped about it And the count became increasingly concerned Well one Sunday, the Countess moved to leave as always, but found her way blocked by four soldiers. She ordered them to move They refused The priest prepared the holiest part of the service The Cess threw off her gown, spread thick, leathery wings, grabbed her two youngest sons, and flew up into the air the astonished and terrified congregation watched as this demonic form flew out of a high window. The Countess of Ajieou and her two youngest sons were never seen again King Richard I of England Rembered as the lion heart was the second ruler of the new Plantagenate dynasty. vast array of lands his parents had gathered He was fond of telling this story about the origins of their family And why they were both so fierce and so cursed Bler Gerald of Wales wrote Moreover, King Richard was often accustomed to refer to this event, saying But it was no matter of wonder if coming from such a race sons should not cease to harass their parents and brothers to quarrel amongst each other. So he knew all come from the devil to the devil. When therefore The rooutot was in every way so corrupt How is it possible that the branches from such a stock ous or virtuous Matt and I have a shiny brand new documentary on History hit about Eleanor Vquitaine and Henry II out now Once you've listened to this, please go watch it and tell everyone how good it is Because I'm always looking for an excuse to talk to Bat and drag him out of his dungeon I thought we could kick back and have a nice little chat about the film that we made in the South of France Matt Welcome up from the dungeon. Thanks for coming in here Hello, it's always a pleasure be allowed out, even for the briefest of times This was such a great fun film to make as well, wasn't it? I mean, I'm going to sound like a bit of a winger here about something that I shouldn't wininge about. but we also did go to the south of France at the hottest point Proably in history, it felt like. It was literally eight million degrees, literally, which was a real test for me, not a hot weather person But you know, does that help us get in touch with the heart and soul of Eleanor of V Aquitaine? Possibly Possibly Was she a hot weather girlly? We have to assume so, right This is a cir Yeah, I mean, Poitier was just such a stunning place, wasn't it? We went to the palace of the Dukes of Poitier, but I think if you could draw I can't draw save my life. but I think if you could draw like your're perfect idea of a medieval French town. That's Paitier, isn't it? Oh, absolutely. I mean, it is absolutely stunning Just down to things like the incredible cathedral, which has beautiful statues of the apocalypse up front, which of course I freaked out over So great. The Dgal Palace incredible. They have churches that have this beautiful old Romanesque architecture which would have been really legible to Eleanora at the time. And it does really make you feel in touch with the people that you are working on And I think if anyone wants to see an approximately forty five minute documentary of Eleanor staring at apocalypse statues outside Potiathedes, we've got that. We've got got that But I guess speaking of Elador, going to Poortier was so important because this is where she was born and That we know, but I suppose what we don't really know is when she was born. You know, we've got no idea what her birthday was. I can't do an astrology girly on her. We don't even know the year of her birth, right? No, I mean it's so weird, isn't? it's quite often given as eleven twenty four, but that doesn't seem to be based on Anything in particular, we get a family kind of genealogy that's produced in eleven thirty seven that says she's fifteen then, which would put her birth in eleven twenty two but we still can't be certain you know, exactly when her birthday is might affect the age that she was. So it could be a year either side of even that and the genealogy might have been incorrect. who knows. So we're slightly guessing even What year she's born in let alone what date she's born to be fair, This isn't that weird for the time. peopleeople were a lot more loosey goosey about the concept of birthdays and birth years She is not the only ruler that we don't have a really great handle on or you know, indeed great thinker Dar the Middle Ages is full of people, you know, whenever I'm writing about them and I'm going and looking at birthdays, you kind of have to put cirka at the beginning of their name because we don't really know. you know, it's just not something that medieval people put very much of a privilege on, you know, to them that Exactly when someone is born is not important and that seems weird to us now. and indeed, it frustrates me. Yeah I will say that, but it's not odd. And also yeah, we'll get to it in a second, but she's I mean, she's a woman And she was never meant to be The Duchess of Aquitain, she was never meant to rule Aquitaine. So kind of once the first boy is born, everyone's like, we don't need dates of birth for the rest of them, do we? ' ' It's like who cares? Yeah, We got what we came for. It's fine. You're just gonna marry her off anyway. She's just gonna go somewhere else, to be a part of someone else's family. You don't need to worry about it someone else has got to remember birthday name. One of the other fun things about Ellenor, I mean, you're named after Ellenor of Aquitine, aren't Mm. I am. One of the other interesting things about Eleanor is kind of trying to work out where that name comes from becausecause it's slightly unusual at the time, but there's some theories about where she gets her name from, aren't? Yeah, because I personally choose to subscribe to this because I think it's great. Her mother's name was Enor And the theory goes that her name is kind of a play on that and it's actually from Alia Aor, which means another Aor L like her weather And I really like this because in which case that means yeah, okay, I'm named after Eleanor Vonertaine, but so is literally every other Eleanor on the planet Be she' she is the proetitor of this name It's a kind of word like Alia Eleanor's then in that case, which is quite fun, I think all of you. Not another one, as someone in Bristol would have said about genereneral elections recently And you know, we mentioned that she's not the oldest member of the family, she's not the male, she's not going to inherit or she was never meant to inherit. So we ought to paint a picture of her family, you know, what kind of family situation is she born into A pretty good one is the answer. I mean the fact that she even ended up as the Duchess of Aquain is absolutely bonkers because this is a pretty settled wealthy family, you know, so here we are Imagine yourself at the court in Poitier. You won't have to if you watch our show because we'll show it to you, baby. But This is one of the richest Ducal courts in Europe at the time It is well known as a hotbed for music. is vastly, vastly wealthy. It's got some of the best wine. anywhere in Europe. and This is a very well settled house That has several many children. So as you say, you know, Eleanor has an older brother even, you know, you know, she's got she's got siblings. She's got siblings. She's not supposed to be anywhere near the throne. She's just going to be quQuite a good bargaining chip in terms of marriages. And because she's from this particular culture, she's receiving an incredibly fine education and being brought up be that very powerful woman, a good co ruler and someone that can give her family rather a lot of cache on a European stage. Yeah. Yeah. And before we get to the rest of a family, you mentioned two things there that were important in acquitaine, music and wine, which reminds me of a little bit of time spent in a vineyard at the Chateau Devreau Be when we were organizing filming this, Eleanor's Rider Eleanor's rider for agreeing to do the documentary at all was to be able to go to a vineyard. So we got to spend a lovely, lovely, very hot afternoon there. I tried to embarrass myself playing a recorder and then we drank some wine I don't know, you know what, Matt I think you succeed. I was gonna to say I should have said try. should There was no try about it. I utterly embarrassed myself with a recorder That's right, Matt. I believe in you We had a really, really wonderful time and and also in my defense, I do think it was kind of necessary to get to the heart of what really makes this region important, right? What is this is the wine that is transported all over Europe and that brings in a fair amount of coin at the time, right? So What we are looking at though, in terms of the dynasty that is taking advantage of this is as we Already noted, we've got Elevor's mother in order Chateau Rillau and she is interesting like she's kind of like from a little bit more far north. like she's kind of that family is kind of the southern part of Northern France, if that makes sense. Yeah. right. So marrying into it From the perspective of the Dues of Poitiers is a good idea because it kind of gets you some I guess ions on your northern borders and some friendly faces when you have to show up to, you know kneel before the King of France in Northern France There's also a bit of a family scandal behind that, isn't there? Because I know, you know You're gonna to be careful how I phrase all this so it doesn't sound too incestuous So Eleanor's father is Duke William I tenth, because all the Dukes of Aquitain are called William just to be annoying and confusing. So her granddad J William the ninth is this kind of famous your first Troubador. But such a colorful character with such a dodgy sex life. I'm So he has an affair with a woman who has the fabulous name S Jereu de Lee Bouchard I mean, if anyone anyone is having a girl child, I am begging you to name her Donjs, okay? please Perfect Ainor, who marries Duke William I t is the daughter of donjerers by her husband So she's not related to Duke William the tenth. But she's his dad's mistress's daughter. and he marries them off I don't know so we can see his mistress at family parties It listen The mind of others is often unknowable. We can say that, but I guess in southern France, this counts as some kind of you know, closer family ties. And you know what? we celebrate it. We celebrate it. Who doesn't want Vanreuse? Christmas, right And we should also add that Eleana has a sister as well. Yeah, that's Alex. Yeah, which is great. Alex with an eye, quite chic, but she's also known as Petronila And she of course, also has a brother named No points for guessing William, What could it be? The future Duke of Acquitaine We'll call him And they are all being raised in the Palace of Potte, which we visited in oh my God is lush. I mean It's got these really incredible fourteenth century sculptures in the throne room now which are just to die for the bones of what would have been Eleanor's Father's courourt are certainly still there and it is just an absolutely stunning, stunning building. I was so happy to be able to go And, you know, what a great excuse. I was like, Yeahah, I've got you gotta let me into this throne room. U And it's when they're like, do you want to come a bit off the touristy trail? You know, we'll have to go through a bit of a building site where we're doing some renovations, but then you can get to a room that nobody else is allowed into, wouldould you like to do that I mean, is it They didn't have to ask us twice, did they Nt rem I just put the hard hats on. We were just on those hard hats. We were down the corridor. It was, I mean, that that it was actually my favorite my favorite part because you had all these really gorgeous Gothsic. arches, really, really lovely stained glass and interesting little capital bosses too. You know, I'm always happy when there's like a little guy in the architecture. that's the thing that I want to see, you know. It's your current Instagram profile picture is you in that room, isn't it? It is it is. Yeah much it. The way I am using that particular picture for everything now. and I'm like, o this That was just taken off the beaten track in the Palace of Foitier. Oh no, I'm afraid you can't go there The staff will have to ick you in So yeah you can go there if you watch our documentary though. Yes, you can. You can come with us you can come with us I'll get you in. don't worry, don't worry, right? We can hold our hands. And I guess you, moving Eleanor's story a bit further forward. So one of the things that people might know about Eleanor is that she's the only woman in history to have been the quQeen of both France and England. So I guess we ought to work on how does she become the Qeen of France. you know, why why is she a good for the heir to the French throne Yeah, I mean, by this point in time, she has become the Duchess of Aquitatee. You know, very unfortunately for her, her brother dies, her mother dies And so she becomes the heir to the throne And when her father dies, she becomes the Duchess of Aquitaine. Not that weird in Aquit This is something that is fairly common, especially in southern France. But she had been entrusted to the care of the French King And lo and behold, surprise, surprise. He's like, wow Now that I am in charge of you know your life, you're going to marry my son And this is not a huge surprise because Aquitaine is probably the largest of any of the Duchies. in France at the time. Eleanor is the most wealthy. of any of the Dukes or duchesses at the time. and so marrying her in to the French crown means theoretically The crown can get their hands on those lands and And it's kind of a no brainer if you are the King of France. Yeah I mean, she doesn't end up being married to the heir to the French homeone for very long because very quickly Louis's dad's N is kind of she arrives Paris as quQeen, doesn't Yeah, exactly. And so now we've got yet another Louis. They're all named Louis. babe. Look, it's all Williams. It's all Louiss. I'm so sorry. There were only three names to go around at the time So They are suddenly the king and quQeen of France, and they're quite young You know, this is like, hey, let's have these teenagers rule One of the most powerful states in Europe, I'm sure it will be fine That's going be Paris. I mean Paris must have been such a gear shift for Elanus. suchuch a different place for Acquitine, isn't it How Gone, absolutely. I you know, everything is much more serious there. The weather is, I would say, much less bright. We could certainly say that There's also h It's just kind of a bit of a problem in terms of the match between Eleanor and Louis. because here's Eleanor, and by all accounts, every single thing you ever read about her, even when people are trying to be haters Nowre like she's a really good time She's kind of sparkling, she's witty. She's used to this court culture that revolves around live music and artistry. And Louis Well, Louis wasn't supposed to be the king of France either, right? Like He was supposed to be, you know a spare. And so he was being raised to be in the church And when his brother died and he did become the heir And suuddenly, you got this real church f guy who is going to be the king of France and he is by all accounts just a real downer is an absolute fun sponge of a guy and this is a real challenge for Eleanor Yeah. And I mean, we don't see one of those situations in which opposites attract, do we? I mean, they And it's weird how early the chroniclers start talking about this idea that Louis is so obsessed and besotted with Eleanor that she's kind of controlling him So even this early in her first relationship to Louis We're seeing her being painted as a very specific type of woman Oh, absolutely. You know she does appear to most people as a threat because she is, by all accounts, incredibly attractive Weirdly we don' know what she actually looks like. We only know that she is very hot She is very charming She's very arerudite. you know, a speaker of several languages, avid and vvericious reader. and someone who was raised to rule. And so that's she gets involved with. almost right away and and almost right away. She ends up having to be very involved in politics because Louis is not very good the political side of things, I think that that's fair thing to say, wouldn't you I think he's interesting. not very good at balancing all of those things. He gets his dad's old advisor, Abbt, Suka kind of out of retirement because he's so desperate for someone to help him rule But people seem to see Eleanor behind Pret much everything that goes wrong for Louis because Louis's rubbish but you can't say the king's rubbish. It's easier to say his wife's not very good. And I mean, he's being rubbish almost immediately. You know, in eleven forty one, he's got this this war to lose and a Basically, there was no real reason for this to have had to break out in the first place. you know, You as the King of France? Wh are you as the King of France actually going to war with your subjects, that means that there's been some failed diplomacy somewhere along the way And it just doesn't look great, does it? And fundamentally, they are having a difficult time drumming up much popular support for it either because it all seems so unnecessary So almost immediately, Eleanor is kind of having to come in. I kind of negotiate with varying partners. Yeah. ye I mean, all of that goes wrong. Louis isn't getting a good reputation. I mean, he there's a I think there's a church during that campaign. There's a church that gets burned full of innocent people and it's the chronicles start tal about, you know, Louis is so emotionally affected by this that he leaves the campaign and kind of probably the driver for his desire to go off to the Holy Land on Crusade, which He and Eleana do in eleven forty seven. and I guess one of the questions people might have is how common is it for Queen like Eleena to be going on crrusade at this point For a queen to be going is exceptionally odd Part of the reason why one wouldn't do that is usually you leave the quQeen home because she's going to be doing rather a lot of ruling while you're away But Eleanor is going Partially because she is just being an absolute legend and she is the head of her own contingent coming from Aquadan. Al Because of the whole war with Tou's thing, Louis had got himself in some trouble with the church. U and the church had taken an incredibly dim view of these particular siegures because let's be so for real, they were as a result of the fact that Louis also wanted to pick who would be bishop and the church was always saying, No, you don't get to do that So too get out of this mess, in order to avoid Louis getting excommunicated and France being put under interdict Eleanor meets with Enemy of the podcast Future Staint Bernard of Clirea D' knows in everything at this time, hasn't he? He's just the worst And he basically negotiates with Elanor, and Eleanor plays an absolute blinder here. She she like pretty cries And it's like, o, o, Bernard, I just I think that maybe the real problem is we're having a hard time conceiving children And oh ho, maybe if I was a better wife, he wouldn't have attacked toou lose qu question mark, you know. And Sabbernard is completely flustered by this and is like, yeah, o ten Hail Marys, I guess And go on go on crusade, go on crusade. And Elor' like yeah o, so she goes back and she's like,ook you're, you're not excommunicated, but we're going have to go on crusade, rightight? So She's already inserted herself at this level and that sort of means she kind of has to go along. I think there's also an element of The French polity by this point may be viewing Eleanor in such a way that they don't want her left behind as regent that they'd prefer Abott Souer to be regent. So the only way you get around a queen being regent is to shuffle her off on crrusade with the king I think that you're probably bang on here. and I find it so funny because All of our records again, indicate though that maybe the French love whatever is going on with Eleanor, but I'll tell you who did Byzantines. She shows up in Constantinople and it's like a riot. Everyone is like, We love this woman. She is incredible. She's so funny, she's so pretty. She's so clever. Wow and she's here to save the day. they're like, oh And also Louis. It It's one of these things. But going to Bzant, getting into Constantinople must have felt much more like going home to Eleanor than Paris had it must have been so much more of a colorful kind of relaxed environment where she was able to enjoy some of the stuff that she might have been missing since she'd had to leave Acquitaine Oh, absolutely. And so you know here or she is really mixing it up with The highest and most you know really worldly people. know Constantinople really being the biggest city in Europe at the time and just this absolute glittering jewel in the crrown of Christendom And I think for her, it was just really nice to sort of be somewhere. where she could with a group of people who appreciate it An Aerodite woman. Yeah That might have been the last time she enjoyed anything on the crusade, I'd imagine Oh yeah, absolutely like spoiler. But you know, the crusade, we get into this rather a lot in the show, but the crusade goes badly. as do all crusades other than the first, right Cruse goes incredibly badly. Eleanor sees herself as being there to support her uncle Raymond and he is Ks. particularly enthused about Louis. Louis is very impetuous, is constantly striking out on his own, wants to expand the crusade to mean getting to Jerusalem when that had not been the idea in the first instance. The entire thing ends up in a total mess, which also means that there is a total breakdown in Eleanor and Louis's relationship. Yeah. And it often strikes me that Louis I don't know if Louis ever really wanted to go on a military crusade or did he just want to go on a pilgrimage to Jerusalem? because he's so obsessed with getting there. He's ignoring, you know, Raymond of Poitier is saying, Well, here's a really good battle plan for how we take back the Holy land. We attack it here here, you know weaken the supply lines around here. and Louis is like, no, we go straight to Jerusalem. That's what we do. You know, and it feels like he just, ye know, he just wanted to go on a pilgrimage to Jerusalem and he kind of wrapped it up as a crusade. I think and it didn't work. I think this is a really great way of looking at it. You know, he doesn't seem to be at all interested in any of the battling that is supposed to be happening. It's just this idea that if we make this bad rush to Jerusalem, everything will be okay. And you know, whether or not he had any exit plan orr it's on anything could actually change is another question. and You know It's the relationship before Eleanor becomes increasingly Untenable Because whatever else you might want to say about her,'s a she's a real planner. You know, she's a deeply sensible individual who is used to taking advice from people around her. and you've just embarrassed her in front of her uncle. You know She's come all the way over to the Holy land. now everything is just completely out the window and you're acted a fool, right? So What ends up happening when they head back? I mean, first of all, They're not even like getting ships together Eleanor is then lost at sea for a month, question mark. Everyone thinks she might be dead. And she shows back up and she's like, A, I'm not dead and B, I am divorcing this man. This is not hand And see, I just had a very nice holiday in Cyprus. Thank you very much. She writes to the papacy And she says, I think I need a divorce from this guy due to consenquuinity, which is sort of the only reason you can usually get a divorce other than erectile dysfunction If you're a woman, the only thing can say is oh, it turns out I'm too closely related to this guy. And at this point in time, the pope is like, you know what? fine I'm sick of you too. You are a huge pain in the neck and I would love it if you would get divorced. So there you go the terrible holiday that ruined a marriage And I guess at this point, you part of the thing with this documentary One of the things about Eleanor is she lives this entire spectacular medieval life of being Queen of France and going off on crusade and all of those things. before she even meets Henry, but at some point we've got to bring Henry into this story too because he's the other half of this deal. Absolutely. And you know, Henry is similarly interestingly scrappy ang I suppose, rightight? C we say that Yeah I think he's coming out of the turmoil of the anarchy, because his mother, of course, was your friend and mine friend of the podcast The Emperress Batilda We love her Lgend. we love her, right As the saying goes, if these walls could talk. And on the Bwixt the Sheets podcast, we make it our business to discover what happened behind closed doors, and even more importantly, in the bedrooms of people all throughout history kings, queens, mistresses, servants, and everyone in between. We also get up close and personal with medieval aphrodisiacs, lethal Victorian makeup routines, and look at the scandalous lives of beloved children's authors. Nothing is off limits In other words, it's the best bits of history with me, Dr. Kate Lister. Listen to but twwix the sheets the history of sex scandal in society twice a week every week, wherever it is that you get your podcasts, brought to you by the award winning network, History Hit So his mom, Matilda, has been kind of fighting to keep their claim to the throne alive against Stephen, you know we could get into the whole anarchy fascinating stuff. But by the time Henry is getting a little bit older, His mom is sutive After eleven forty one, after the Battle of Lincoln, captures King Steven, then he has to be released. And I think this drives home for her that she's never going to make herself queen. But what she does do is think, well I can keep this claim alive For my son for Henry, know he's named after his grandfather, Henry I And so By the time he's getting of an age to get himself involved, she's taking a little bit of a backseat. He spent some time in England Already, so he comes over, he's born eleven thirty three, comes over in eleven forty two, spend some time at Bristol with his uncle, Robert of Gloucester where he kind of continues his education with some of the most enlightened minds in Britain at the time. And he also you know we know he's getting an incredibly good education back on the continent when he returns there as well. William of Conch is one of his tutors. he's a really famous academic. and later in Henry's life, people will talk about the fact that he reads books voraciously that he can speak every language in Europe basically at least enough to understand and speak to ambassadors And and I don't think you can do the things that Henry manages to do when he's king without being a pretty clever guy. So it's clear he's getting an education befitting someone who is is going to rule one day. Oh, absolutely. And you know, I think that these are things that are all going to set him in a very good stead Firstly for ruling England, but also ruling a huge landmass that does encompass lots of different languages, does have a lot of different cultures. so he's really brought up to be able to understand that the world contains very many things, which you might need to know about and He does end up, you know, pressing this point, pressing the point of his just for succession, right? So, you know, he's he's Sarch trying to invade England when he's fourteen. Like come on Kid, I love it. Like gives it the old college try in eleven forty seven You know, which is just a wonderful thing to see where you're like, Yeahah, just get it out there. I hope he has fun It's one of my favorite stories about Henry because you know he's fourteen years old. He gets together a bunch of his mates, knights, but his mates. and they head over to England. and you get the chroniclers at the time writing that you know this was the thunderstroke that shook England. Henry has arrived with a huge army and he's got barrels full of treasure to bribe everybody. And we are about to enter the biggest phase of war. this nation has ever known and everybody's terrified. And then it turns out it's Henry and half a dozen mates and they've got no cash And it doesn't go very well. I there's a bunch of boys going, Wait, way like Lad's holiday to the south of England And they end up, you know, he ends it goes really bad. He tries to lay siege to some castles. It doesn't work out for him And then he's stuck at fourteen with this situation where he goes to his mom who's still in England at this point and says, can you pay my nights for me because I promised that they get paid kind of out of all of our glittering successes, of which we have had none And his mom says, Well, no, you know, you made your bed You lie in it? That's good parenting. If you've used your pocket money for something else. Yeah G on theaughty step So he go he then goes to his rich uncle Robert of Gloucester, who you know, he' spent time with before and Robert is, you know, a Chivalric figure also incredibly rich and he says, Uncle Robert, will you pay my knight so that you know I can go home with my honor in tax And on Robert's a bit like, what did your m say? What did M say? And Robert refuses to pay it too. And so Henry finds himself forced to go and see The man whose kingdom he's invaded, Stephen He like rocks up at Stehven's house and says, Steve, will you just pay these nights so that we can all go home? please I mean The konas on this kid at fourteen I've just invaded your kingdom. C you just pay us off to go now Uncle Stehven And the bizarre thing is that Stephven agrees to do it. Stephven pays him off so he can go home And this is one of those things getting on my Stehven soapbox in a little bit. It's one of the things that Stephven gets blamed for know It's ridiculous that he paid these men off. But I think it serves two ends. It gets them out of his kingdom you know, it gives him a little victory over Henry. But I think it also If you look at what happens a little bit later when the anarch is com come to a close, I think this is a moment that creates this kind of Almost like a connection, a well of sympathy between Stephven and Henry because Henry never goes for the jugular with Stephven. And I can't help wondering whet this goes back to at fourteen. He's actually the only one who helped me out. He's the only reason that I left England with my honor intact and my men paid. Oh abbsolutely. And I think also to Stephven's credit, one of the things that it does is it shows that he's not rattled L he can say, yeah, I'm not bothered If a fourteen year old shows up attempts to attack me because it's preposterous. Obviously, I'm the king of England. There you go. You the lads go on home, you've had your fun Sort of thing. I think that that you're right. That that was cute. have some. Like he plays a blinder there. You know, show everyone that you're not bothered by. Yeah. And then I mean, he waits he waits three years to leave seventeen, which you know, that's a great age Oh the entries, isn't it? seventeen. He's a man now. He gets these series of setbacks. he's planning to invade England from eleven fifty. We get we see in the documentary we went and saw Nicholas Vincent at the British Lbrary who got some horoscopes that Stephen had cast around eleven fifty when Stephven is kind of dabbling in this new science of horoscopes that's just moving out of the east with connections with the Crusades. And he's kind of saying, you know if I get all of the barons to swear allegiance to my son Eustace, will it work? And interestingly you get this guy casting the horoscope going well The signs all say that if you involve someone who casts horoscopes, then it will work. So there's a little bit of job creation going on. we could learn so much from the past, ye what can I say So whats you get? It's only going to work if you get me involved K me on the payroll And then he's you know, he's having horoscopes cast asking whether a certain person is going to invade the kingdom in that year. And the guy casting the horoscope is going, No I mean, it's a fifty fifty question, isn't it? And to be fair, that was probably cast in eleven fifty one and he doesn't invade in eleven fifty one because as he's got his fleet ready to go, his dad, Jeffrey, the Count of Anjou dies. So kind of eighteen he's now countount of An Jou and he's actually beginning to get into all these titles. He's already Duke of Normandy. hisis dad conquers Normandy and justives to him Now he's Count of Anjoux and you know head of the family as well. his little brothers are partarticularly Jeffrey is endlessly causing him problems kicking off rebelling, thinking he's entitled to more then he's got his hands on And then in eleven fifty two, you know he's ready to invade England again and all of a sudden he gets the teleter from this newly divorced lady down in the safe It's like you fancy coming to marry me And I think it's interesting that it's Eleanor who approaches Henry, isn't it? Yeah, I think that this is something where again, my girl She's untouchable, the best ever do it, right? Because she is in this terrible position after she divorces Louis because Now she is L once again the most wealthy possible marriage prospect in Europe and As she's trying to get back to her lands from the whole, you know, holiday in Cyprus debacle. She faces two attempted kidnappings on the part of varying would be suitors, you know, how romantic, right And you know, she doesn't want the comeown of being a duchess again, you know, once you've become a queen, you don't want to have to get knocked back down a couple of ranks And also, you know, I think she kind of wants to annoy her ex a little bit and who amongst us, you know could say that that isn't delicious So, you know, she approaches the young Henry because in theory, he might be coming into some land soon. He's certainly coming into a lot of French lands at the very least. And this would be annoying to Louis. in the first place because that is going to unite this these two houses and they are going to have more French land than he does which is very funny And then you know, if and when Henry becomes king of England, she will be quQueen of England. So she's the one who's like, hey you want to get married And she also knows this is going to work because she's met Henry before And Henry's eyes were popping out of his head with hearts. He was hitting himself on the head with a mallet and his tongue was on the floor. And so she's like, I think I can win this one, right? So you know, it's the equivalent of Getting a letter from a pop star saying, Oh, hey, do you want to get married seventeen year old boy? And Henry iss like, yes, Yes I do Thank you very much Yeah. I always imagine him, you know, he's preparing for this big invasion. He's got all his soldiers there and he gets this letter. And I always imagine him in another cartoon character version with his feet like he can't run on the floor fast enough. his feet go and keep up with him. He's desperately just trying to run down to the south because I think Eleanor must have been also this is probably a fairly calculated decision on Eleanor's part because we we know Louis did his best to try and keep Acquitaine on behalf of their daughters and Eleanor managed to retain control of Acquitaine. But she knows, I think when she gets back there There's those two abduction attempts, the second one of which is by Henry's younger brother by. Nice But she knows that she's going to have trouble. She needs someone at her side Well she's probably going to get married because if people are trying to abduct her How long can she avoid? It might be better if she gets to choose who it is, but she also needs someone who can be an effective rival Louis, someone who can protect her and her lands against Louis. And if you cast around Europe at this point, who is the obvious answer? It's this seventeen year old kid who is on the art He's Duke of Aquitaine, he's count of of Anjou, He's about to invade England to try and make himself king there. Everything is going his way. And like you say, he's someone who can really rattle Louis And you know, listen, we know he's not afraid to start a battle So, you know, that's a good thing. This is someone that you want in your corner, right? And To be fair, he takes this up. It is great. It's a great marriage proposal fromrom his standpoint. You know, obviously you get to marry a bonafide hotie, but also there's a ton of lands in it for you And this is all an incredibly wealthy parcel of land that should you need money too go say invade England, you can always draw from the coffers of pooitiers. So He dudely shows up in Pitier and on the eighteenth of may eleven fifty two, the two of them get married Poitier Cathedral. Oh What you imagine is so beautiful? Really a really a real stunner cathedral in my opinion. I mean it's aorgeous building, isn't it? There was that one chapel on the side that had all the paintings on the ceilings that they've only fairly recently uncovered that Henry and Eleanor might have have looked at, you know when they were there getting married. but I mean, stunning building is? It's just really gorgeous. I've mentioned it already. I'm going to mention it again the statuary on the outside of it. They've got a really incredible incredible apocalypse scene with everyone getting up out of their graves, a nice little hellmouth. Matt took some very funny pictures of B just obsessing over it as well. you it's like at any time We were not filming. I was dr. Al Matt very much enjoyed standing next to you and asking you what it all meant and having an expert on that kind of thing standing next to me, explaining it all to me was absolutely fantastic. And I mean, also just the streets around the cathedral are so beautiful down there. You know, everything is kind of made out of the same you know lovely kind of poit limestone. you can really see the medieval layout of the city. and I think that it goes a long way to helping you sort of imagine life must have been like for them. And you know, the lovely procession back from the cathedral to the Dugal Palace afterwards. It must have been An incredible thing, especially for the young Henry who was so hyped that he just married this incredible babe, you know And you can't help wondering, you know, they get married in May, you can't help wondering if it was as hot as it was when we were there as well. becausecauseuse one of my favorite moments was getting an iced coffee after we'd been. Oh yeah Absolutely. I think I also made everyone get Monacos one night, which is kind of French shandy It's locker. Soda water and Grenitine, try it You like it, you like it. I'm just saying. Do try it. It was very, very good. It was not just one night that we had those very good It was more than one. No, indeed And we've mentioned a little bit about, you know we don't know too much about what Eleanor looks like There is this sense that she's this incredibly attractive intelligent woman. And I guess the one counter to that that we do get in the documentary was when I got went to see Nicholas Vincent at the British Library He'd recently been doing some work on a source and this is a source that is incredibly negative hostile to Henry and Eleanor. So We take it with a pinch of salt, absolutely But this seems to be poking a lot of fun at Henry and essentially saying that later on in their relationships so after they've been married for a while Henry is having to take aphrodisiacs in order to be able to sleep with Eleanor So, it's trying to obviously disparage Eleanor in particular, I guess, but poke a little bit of fun at Henry's sexual prowess a little bit later in his life as well So you know we stuck with this sense that we don't know what Eleanor looked like. We have all of these notions, particularly when she's younger. of her being incredibly attractive people wanting to be around her and having that kind of magnetic personality. And then we get this random source that says, Oh yeah, but Henry you need a bit of help to sleep with her. As the saying goes, if these walls could talk. And on the Bwixt the Sheets podcast, we make it our business to discover what happened behind closed doors, and even more importantly, in the bedrooms of people all throughout history Kings, queens, mistresses, servants, and everyone in between We also get up close and personal with medieval aphrodisiacs, lethal Victorian makeup routines, and look at the scandalous lives of beloved children's authors. Nothing is off limits In other words, it's the best bits of history with me, Dr. Kate Lister. Listen to but twwix the sheets the history of sex scandal in society twice a week every week, wherever it is that you get your podcasts, brought to you by the award winning network, History Hit know For me, I find this all quite interesting because too an extent, you know, in the Middle Ages, there's this beauty ideal for women and there's one Right And it is kind of created around in the twelfth century and then it holds after that. And the ideal woman blonde hair, gray eyes white skin, you know, and this this is what you're supposed to look like. And so oftentimes we do find that if people don't live up to that ideal We just don't hear anything at all which to me indicates like I would guess if I had to guess, I would say that Eleanor maybe has brown hair and brown eyes Because since that doesn't match the ideal, you just don't say it Right. Yeah. And indeed, you know, she's this gorgeous Southern French woman. And, you know, I think that when we when we imagine Gaallic beauties know that's what I'm thinking I'inking like Julia Binoche, I'm thinking about women like that, right Absolutely And I think interestingly, we do have an idea of what Henry looks like. And this is given to us by Gerald of Wales who Yeah, he's quite pro Henry. He likes Henry. He writes all throughout Henry's reign U And I mean, I'll read the description that he gives us of Henry because I don't think he paints him in a particularly nice light, given that we're so used to hearing that princes and kings are always the most handsome man in the room. they're always so ridiculously good looking. What Gerald tells us about Henry is he writes Henry II. King of the English was a man of ruddy complexion I mean, that doesn't fit with the beauty idea of being quite pale, does it? With a large round head I mean slow down. Okaykay He gets gray eyes. He gives him gray eyes fierce in anger and so fused with blood Fiery, mean, harsh voice, neck bent forward toward the shoulder a little, broad chest, strong arms and a fleshy body I mean, none of that is is is making you think F Yeah here's a looker, right? I suppose that what we are getting though is a really clear idea of a man who is a man of action. I suppose, right? You know, when we've got the broad chest, strong arms, fleshy body, that's like, you know, virile. Potency, a man's man. if you will, you know, Oh clearly he's got lots of excess blood, right? which is what you're supposed to have if you're a man, right? Like from humoral theory. So yeah, it's not particularly flattering per se. but I guess it's it's probably going to be True as a result of that, right That's quite oppositely. I think it makes it reliable because it's not simply saying that he meets all of the beauty standard of the day and as the most attractive man in the room. It's kind of giving him a real very real face that we can almost imagine. although I will say so I I write a book about Henry and Eleanor, and I do a talk on it as well And this was around about the time, know, I'm not a massive fan of AI, but I was playing with AI and I thought what happens if you put this description from Gerald of Wales into AI? Will it give me a picture that I think might look like Henry II becauseuse we don't have any portraiture of him or anything like that So I put this description into AI and it's like, you know, a medieval king based on this description And what it spat out was perhaps the sexiest man I have ever seen in my life. That's AI Weirdly, AI seems to have a bit of a thing for Henry II. which AI wants to shag Henry II. Wow, okay. All right. I think it does. I'll show you the picture. please show me the picture immediately. But you know, if all that AI can do is mirror back things that humans have already done, perhaps this says something about the collective unconscious and we're all wanting to shag Henry I think that's fair. That's a fair comment. There's our subtitle for the episode. Yeah And I guess we ought to move on to kind of the conclusion of this documentary because this is about their their rise, their separate lives and them eventually coming together. And what we really really want is to go and make some more of their story. So please everybody watch it and enjoy it. and Tell history hit how amazing it is We are begging you to keep making this Please. So we ought to get on to how they become King and Qeen of England. So finally after all those setbacks, eleven fifty two after he's married Eleanor Henry does manage to invade England. We get this kind of weird standoff with Stephven where they seem to, you know, Henry tears around the countryside a little bit, causing a bit of chaos. The two of them never really come to blows. there's a couple of times when they seem to line up either side of a river in the pouring rain and go Oh if this river wasn't here we'd definitely be having a fight right now. Oh, I would get ya. Oh And then we get very One time they have a conference on an island in the middle of the river at which only Stephen and Henry are present and then the chroniclers continue to tell us exactly what they discussed while they were on that island when no one else was there as they did. So again, we have to be really careful about what they're putting into people's mouths But essentially the standoff is concluded when Stehven's son, Eustace dies unexpectedly and Stephen kind of makes an arrangement with Henry by which he effectively adopts him. and names him as heir to the throne of England. So we've got this kind of Almost twenty years of conflict is kind of ended peaceful manner And it's a really interesting one. I think it's also a funny word its like take that Eustace, you know the poort guyab chronicles that Eust saw this coming that he thought his dad wasn't going to fight Henry. So he goes off into the The East Country goes off into Norfolk and just goes on a mad rampage until he gets ill and dies. he just throws a massive tantrum W, you know, well, what might have been? am I right with a wonderful consistency like that. He would have made a great gig Yeah, I do find that this is really interesting because, you know We Do you then have Sth even agreeing. that Henry is going to be the heir And then Stehven dies in October of eleven fifty four And We don't see Eleanor and Henry rush to be crowned king and queen And I find this incredibly telling They are not crown until the nineteenth of December. So you know they've got a good long chunk of time in between I think that shows a fair amount of bravery on their part. But you know, an ins same way that Stephen letting Henry go back to France I think it is sort of showing I'm not afraid that you know, I am the true king I think them really taking the time to be crowned says something about their confidence. in what has happen. It's a really bold move when you think of the recent history of the English crown because you know, Stehven had snatch the crown. Henry' grandather, Henry I had snatched the cr. Before that They leave this kind of two month window into which somebody else could have stepped. And I can't help wondering whether Henry does it very deliberately almost as a dare. It's like, you know, if you're going to show your hand dare you to do it dare you And if you don't do it then you're accepting that I'm the king when I get there because there's nobodybody but me that can do it Make a peace with it is now or never kind of a thing. and nobody did anything fundamentally and you're quite right too, because these are two of the wealthiest people in Europe. If you or going to try to face them down You better come with a hell of an army, you know I wouldn't have stood in Henry's way. unless you look like what AI thinks he looks like and then might have got his way? I Hello, Henry. Hello. Oh am I in the way? Oh no. You're gonna have to push past me I'm Heyway, Eleenor of Acquue and I'm not trying to cheat on you with Henry I second anyway. I guess E here is a good of place to need to kind of Consider how significant Eleanor and Henry R In terms of the establishment of a real Lasting Dynasty, right Yeah. I mean, we get into three hundred and thirty one years of direct descendants ruling England. I mean, that's no mean feat. It's the longest surviving English Dynasty to date And I think there's a couple of really interesting things about they do as well. So their relationship with Louis VII, so Eleanor's ex, which is kind of crafted by the fact that Henry's marri his really, really quickly. and Henry has also accumulated far more of France than Louis controls whichich makes the the The King of England then looked like a huge, huge threat to the Capitian king of France, and in Louis VIvent' case it takes him a long time to have a son I see him getting increasingly nervous And I think the relationship with Louis VII and then his son that he does eventually have, Philip II, Augustus and the relationship that Philip has with Henry in his later years and then also with Henry's sons It's something that I think we can see that defining the relationships between England and France for centuries that follow. This is the beginning really of the idea that England and France are enemies who are always at war Oh, absolutely. because before this, I mean, what would be the point? I mean, sure you got Normandy as a real issue and one of the things that the Kings of England never really lik, but the French king doesn't care. Yeah the French king's like, yeah, sure, buddy Like' the Duke of Dorordy and also in island with some sheep on it. Okay, brilliant But if you control I'll do outain and Normandy listen now there's a problem and that is going to be a much larger issue for the King of fonts. and fundamentally it just means that money can flow in varying directions more easily And listen. They do have so much money, they do have so much power. It's this dynasty That really gives birth to some of at least the most recognizable, the most household names of a lot of the medieval English kings. I think I mean, you know, just their children, you've got Richard the Lionheart and King John So you know, someone of wh who has been remembered for centuries as one of the greatest warrior kings of England up for debate And someone who has been remembered as the worst king of England, probablyably not up for debate. P not up for debate, yeah. No.. So you've got kind of real polar opposites amongst their own children, but as you say, some of those most recognizable names, Edward III is a descendant of this You know, the man who rules England for fifty years and gets us neck deep in the Hundred Years War and all of those kind of things. You can stretch under Henry V, you know is part of this same dynasty. Some of the really famous names that we associate most with English medieval history can trace their lineage back to Henry and Eleanor. I mean, that is true all over the continent as well because listen One thing I will say is that I believe that Henry and Eleanor's sons are garbage waste men Album N never did a good thing between them. Their daughters, on the other hand consumant rulers I think people I think Henry and Elea's sons probably hated their sisters because they were Such a good example of what children should be that they made the brothers look So, so bad. and you know, they like spectacular marriages And they so the oldest daughter, Matilda marries Henry the Lion, the Duke of Saxony and Bavaria. so you know is big in Germany. But we get this lovely story when Henry the Lion falls out with the Holy Roman Eperor and is kind of exiled he decides to come to England to his father in law's and Matild, we' told you know, the Ho Roman Emperor says, you can stay here and I'll give you an income. You're perfectly safe tot worry about it. Matilde's like No, it'sine if my husbands going to England, so am I And then the sources give us lots of really touching detail about Henry and Eleanor having their the daughter they might never have expected to realistically see again. Suddenly back in England with her husband and all of their children. So they're bringing the grandkids, and you've got Henry and Eleanor like running around like idiots. and I imagine, you know Henry being ridden like a horse by his grandchildren and all that kind of stuff. You get this impression of a really nice close family environment for the time that Matilda is in exile in England I just think that, you know, I love that for her. She deserves it, right Let's see can we talk about the other Eleanor though? So their daughter Eleanor marries incredibly well Right So she marries Alfonso VII, who is the king of Castili Tllo so she's she's a queen She's just a straight up queen And this is where these Spanish Eleanoreors start coming from So when you have like Eleanor of Castilee who will be the Qeen of England later. It's as a result of these Eleanors making it fashionable. Das manan And she does incredibly well down there. I look, a very beloved queen reallyally considered to be a steady hand on the tiller it's a really successful marriage, that one. Alfonso in Eleanor And we get, you know, Matilda's son will go on to become a holy Roman emperor. Otto IV You know your emperressor better than I do Oo the Fth Um, well done ne of Eleanor's daughter will become quQueen of France you know, the mother of Louis the ninth, the saint And then we've got the youngest daughter Joan, who is first off married to William II, who is the king of Sicily, who is also a Norman, Norman kings of Sicily And and you know, she seems to have done okay there until he dies and she gets wrapped up in the civil warar there and Richard on his way to Crusade swings by and I want to say rescue, sir. we've got a fantastic episode on Joan in the back catalogue with Kath Hanley, who wrote a biography of Joan And she very much makes the point that Richard looks like he swings by to save Joan. What he does is swing by to get Joan's money to fund his his crusading desires. And then she gets she gets married to Rayond VI, the Count of Toulouse and this seems like such an unhappy marriage She will later turn up at Fontoreaux Abbey, where her mom has retired pregnant having left her husband and she asks to be inducted into the nunnery and she's accepted as a pregnant, married nun. But unfortunately dies, you know, not long after childbirth. she's fairly seriously ill by the time she gets there. So I mean just another incredible story from this family You know, and to have the force of will to make a move like that really speaks Well of Joan, I would say and you know, shows that Elanor, I think did a great job raising her daughters, if not her sons I'll just say that We'll ignore them for now didid not do agree. I mean, Ellen iss one of their biggestailures, Henry and Eleen has given us Jhn really isn't It's hard to get round that Yeah. Well, you know what happened there. Eleanor basically didn't raise him. He was just with Henry the whole time. So, you know, There's an issue And I guess so a big question for the end of this, we want people to go and watch the documentary, so we're probably going to overregg this here. but does Does the rise of the pllantageninetates, the birth of this new dynasty, is this a moment that defines medieval English history Yes, thank you for coming But yeah, yeah, absolutely because I think this these is really, you know, that they are the heads of what we end up calling the Plantagate emmpire They are people that We imagine when we think about kings and queens of England, and they really put England on the map because of their lands in France and their incredible connections across the continent, all these really wonderful marriages that they make for their children. They really establish England as a key player within Europe and it simply hadn't been before. It just hadn't been And I think that's driven home by the fact that by the time Henry is getting on a little bit and he's being king for kind of thirty years, he's seemen very much as this kind of senior political figure in Europe. He's the grown up. You know, everybody's going to Henry to try and get their feuds resolved when Philip Augustus becomes king of France when Louis VII dies He's still quite young and he relies on Henry to help him out know and then repays him very poorly for the assistance that Henry does give him And you know, the patriarch of Jerusalem is coming to Henry with the keys to the city of Jerusalem and asking him to go and be king of Jerusalem I mean, there are there is almost no way to comprehend how well regarded Henry was. By this point in his reign. Yeahbsolutely everyone except your sons