Reflecting on Family and Forgiveness

Hello guys, it's Jamie and Sopie from the Newly Parents podcast here. Coming up on this week's episode She had a really small little frog. I stole it. And then my dad came in and like sat me down and said, Look, Sophie, we're gonna have to call the police because stealing is illegal and it that's really wrong Listen or watch wherever you get your podcast. Hello everyone, I'mimmy Lang and this is Great Moments B Hey guys, welcome back. Yesterday was my first ever Father's Day. so congratulations to me and all the dads out there. And it got me thinking about my conversation with the brilliant Amiragon Okay, I knew this was the perfect great moment to share with you today. Now you know AmL as a journalist, a broadcaster, a podcast, a presenter of a university challenge and also a friend of mine. And when AmL came on G Company, we had one of the most honest and moving conversations I've ever had on the podcast, truthfully. In this great moment, he opens up about losing his dad and shares what he has learnt from grief. So if you like what you hear you can check out the full episode in the show notes below, justust go and click on it But here it is, our next episode of Great Moments with Amel Rjin Your relationship with your dad is so thick for you, right? And so many Inredible ways and it's the story that I told myself about myself and when that story goes Youve got to tell yourself a new story and that's really hard when you're thirty eight as I was when he died. My dad. The thing about it was that was so shocking so I didn't think he was going to die I I he was seventy six, annoying had that slightly kind of elder sort of edious thing where he hated medicine and doctors and he had type two diabetes and out of nowhere, he got pneumonia And he went in and he went into intensive care for five weeks And it was the worst five weeks of my life. And at the end, it looked like he was getting a bit better. It was a time of Omicron so he couldn't visit it and that was thing that was so hard about it. And suddenly all of the for five weeks, the infections he was getting, the tubes, the pipes, his kidneys weren't working, and it was all too much. he had a catastrophic heart attack. And if I'm honest, ye, that was three years ago last week It's still really, really raw, you know And last Friday, I went to the place in Chiswick in West London where I first came I was born in India, lived in Cz from the age of three to seven. I went with my mom We looked at this house. And we talked about all the memories of being there, and it was incredible. And then I went back to tuting and there which is where parents houses in South London And there's just a picture of my dad And he's smiling and there's something about that just it kills me, man. kills me And you know, my dad was You know, I think we'd nowadays probably medicalize it and say he was depressed for years. He was a downbeat guy, an introvert There's something about when someone is u Your dad. I they're a downbeat person. and you have kind of private access to them smiling. There's something about that when they smile at you. It's so overwhelming And yeah, I went to pieces. And if I'm honest, you know It's a weird thing to know how blessed and how lucky you are You know I've won the lottery so many times in my life and all the big things I'm paid really well. I have a fantastic job and yet to feel in a bit of a funk And I was so unprepared for grief And I've been in such a pit of grief for such a long time And one of the things I really want to do by talking about it is to tell other people that this is coming Your parents are gonna die, man And it's going to be, you think it's going to be bad? It's going to be a million times worse than you think it's going to be and you have to get ready for it. I don't think I'm prepared for that. You can't prepare for it. But the one thing you can do, which I know you've talked about a bit is you can make sure that you minimize the regret And what do you mean by that? Well, you say the things you need to say couple of years ago Before my dad died I decided to go on a little walk with my dad. And I asked him some really basic questions, Y dad, You're happy with how things are turned out Do you feel like the sacrifices you and m made in coming to this country? You know, he was forty one, the age I am now. when he ripped himself away from kind of everything that was familiar and beloved You know, do you feel it came out? And you know, my dad didn't say, you know what, son? I'm proud of you and it was absolutely justified. But he kind of intimated that I'm so glad I did that walk And there are certain places I wanted to go with him You know, I've got a son called Winston, me and my dad were both very interested in Churchill. I really wanted to go to the house in Kent where Churchill spent most of his life with him. I didn't get to do that. And so if there are things that you want to do with your parents and you're lucky enough to have your parents around, you've got to do those things They are top priority because you know, it's the height of arrogance to think your parents to be around forever But I' being in a complete funk really for three years. And people see, don't they? they see They see kind of they see you in university challenge, they hear you on the todayoday program or on a podcast they see he's a pretty upbeat guy And what they don't see is that internally you're trying to write a new story You're trying to kind of. tellell yourself that this is why you do it and you're trying to tell yourself what there is to live for in the absence of your dad. Now if people listening to this are going through grief, I'd say it was a thing that Johny Beste, the England cricket, right And I get all my moral ts from cricket playays Tony Besto is absolute legend, amazing gu H dad. u died by suicide whenohny Best was eight He talked about how when you're going through grief, he said, you' just got to keep putting one foot in front of the other. Just keep just keep buggering on, as Churchill said. and I sort of feel like people need to know that time will change things. It will soften the grief, it will change it will stop being so raw You know, you might suddenly go five hours of a day without thinking about that person. You might suddly go to bed, wake up and not have dreamt about him. I remember the first time I had woke up and thought, Oh my Godd, I've not dreamed about Dad. I must be moving on but also Grief can come back from anywhere. It could be a little trigger. Like my dad was the only person I've ever met becausecause he was an old Indian man who used a shoe horn. You know when you to get you don't 'cause he was so poor growing up. thought if you get a pair of shoes for Mark's Spense, it's like twenty five pounds back in the days like you don't wantan to mess up the thing. So you use a shoe horn. And I went to That's such a beautiful image, is It oldld Indian men of my dad's generation loved to shoe all because they didn't want to Yeah, they wanted the shoe to last. My dad'm so proud of you' got shoe for Markx and Spcer And like it lasted for like fifteen years. and like I mean I feel ashamed I could trad all the time mean And so street grief is like it can come back from anywhere. And also grif is this weird thing in that it's completely universal. You're going go through it. And you know, God, I hope we can talk when you do. but it's also a particular, you know, every partular every grief is a grief for a particular relationship And so you prepare for it. But the thing that you got to do If you've got the relationship with your dad that I had where my dad was kind of my story, you know, He was born into extreme poverty, gave up everything, came to this country, dreamt that his children would do well And I wanted to make him proud And when the person that you want to make proud is dead. You got to work out wake up in the morning And I'm sort of doing that, you know? I'm actively doing it now Partly coming here talking to such an inspirational dude. it's the same shit, you know, I'm trying to work out what it's all about. and I do know the answer. you know, I know about the meaning of life and I know why I live, but it's hard work. I definitely fall into that sort of category where I'm a fixer try and to fix things the whole time and I think you probably do too. You can fix it.'ll do that. I'll sort that out.t I'll do that I can do that. I can do that, whatever And when you can't fix something, that's very hard. And then when you're not distracting yourself and you're sitting in that place, which is grief And you don't know how and also You can prepare yourself to do that leg spinall. You can prepare yourself to be an editor You can prepare yourself to be a broadcast. You can prepare those things. and I think you are you prepare yourself into everything that you do and you listen to this podcast probably because you were you were coming on and you listen to and things like that You can't prepare yourself for grief. No. because that's an emotion you can't understand until it happens. And also you can't work harder at it. playing cricket or being a broadcaster or whatever, you can work really hard hard work Hard work gives you confidence. Grief iss not like that It's not something where you're like, do you know what today? know it's generally what it's Tuesday morning. I think what I'll do I'll go and chat to Jamie and I' work really hard at my grief. Hm He's like, no, no, you look at a shoehorn or coat, My dad' such an irony. my dad Bd as anything. always combed his head Cbody's head at the side. It's There's not that much hair especially at the top's like, whyy com in your here, dud? It's You haven't go any hereere If you I mean, or maybe you do, but that's a hell of a part and you've got there. you know, you c with down the site and then who do you know that's got a hair comb? I mean I don't I've never known anyone that's got a comb. And I went to his top drawer last week last Friday is a third anniversary I look at this picture here and I cry my cuts out And I went to his room And there's a little kind of devotional prayer area, which is you often have Indian heritage and open his drawor, I'm not Dad to look at and there was a shoehorn like and and a comb And I just remember thinking Why did he cleose his head? You know? He didn't have any hair. You know, and I'm like Yeah,t you can't work at that, man. You can work at everything else. You can work at building a company, you can work at being a better conversationalist so you can work at everything Yeah, grif you just got to let time do his thing. I think Did you say goodbye then And the thing that Um One of the things that upsets me most is that Yeah, yeah, there's five weeks where yeah, because it was COVID and Omicron and So many people who had ill relatives in that period, particularly elderly relatives will know visiting times were like really screwed up. so you had to like book it in with this. There's this wonderful Nurse who' like had like an iPad schedule and you'd get to talk to you on an iPad. and he because he went into a coma, He never really came round So he didn't really get to talk to him. And he moved to this other ward I remember saying to my son 're watching some God awful TV. I remember saying to my son, by the way, grandads getting better And my son was on some He was need a bit of a chat box And he was ranting about something. And as I said this, he just stopped and went, Yes meant soant so much to me, man That really meant so much to me because in that moment I knew they had a relationship with my dad And um just sucks that after that he didn't get to get to see him and the funeral itself Um Even more painful than the day died There's a famous poem called Egy written in the Country Churchyard, which I can do most by mostly verbatim It's all about the kind of nobility and Brilliant of the poor And I can do it verbatim and I always wanted to make sure I delivered it without having to look at the notes. but on the day I just went to complete pieces. and in a way, that was when I said goodbye when I kind of read this poem to him. What is the poem? So I'm getting like this is I'll make the poem is u Thomas Gray And at Stoke Pgess in Buchamshire, which is in a churchyard Thomas Gray, this the mid eighteenth century, looks at U, all these Greystones And he basically does this long poem Way talks about how history shouldn't forget bravery and the brilliance of these people, and there's a particular Stanza, where my dad the story of my dad's life, which is why it's so ironic that I present university challenge So my dad was a genius He was like off the scale clever. And but my dad was soopper, He's one of eleven children. He had six sisters. And he was extraordinarily clever. He's the only one of the eleven left India But he couldn't purue his academic ambitions because he had to his siss married. You know, this is sixties and seventies India And so he asked his father if he could pursue a you know further study. his father slapped him around quite a bit and said you' got to get your sisters married But there's a very particular stanza, which is the most important to me where he talked about chilled Pinuri because chill Pinuri, like extreme poverty stopped him doing what he wanted and it stopped in pursuing knowledge with a capital K And there's a stanza in Grey's Egy where he says, But knowledge to their eyes her ample page, rich with the spoils of time never did unroll Chill Pinuri repressed their noble rage and froze the genial current of the soul. And that idea that one standard combines the Knowledge with the Capital K and Chill Pinuri. And you know what I would have just loved to University Challenge. which I am so proud to do about knowledge with the Capital K and that pursuit of knowledge which brought him halfway across the world. because he wanted his kids to get a great education Im That's what university Challenge embodies And so I feel that presenting that program. which I would know, work really hard at and I want to do really well want to do for a long time if I'm lucky. I feel like I kind of fulfilled some of his sacifice and yet he wasn't there to see it. And that sucks, man. Thank you for sharing that.ud honestly it., man. Mate, thank you for bring out I'm rambling, man. You know are you kidding me keep rambing are youid this is everything. but it's so Beautiful, right? that Firstly, it's so beautiful that you have that relationship with your father.ike I would T that Man, are you kidding me? For for so many years in my twenties I just I just ignore my parents and I was just a dickad and I just You know, I Missed Christmases because I wanted to do more fun things and I just didn't do anything in still got time, man. Yeah, I know, but still got time, you know, Yeah. but but I now realize this family is just everything. it's completely everything and so many Beautiful ways. and I think anyone listening Just take note, right? Because I come remember where we were chaning to, but someone said life a little bit at the moment feels temporary At this age, like my parents were invincible Ten years ago, they were invincible. They're like these enormous trees in a forest when they' growing up, they're huge. Yeah and And then suddenly you're like, Ah They're gonna to go. M your parents are gonna I know. and that for me and it feels it feels temperoring enough for whatever reason. So if I called you tomorrow And so Jamie, I'm really sorry, but cancer And he's got three months to live What would you do And Got me So I would probably say to him could I have cute I have huge guilt wass my dad Um Well may you've still got time to fix things, you know, you've still got time to fix things You know Youve won the lottery. Right Listening to you and seeing how you feel about it It's obviously incredibly important. That guilt that you feel towards your dad is obviously a very big part of how you think about your relationship with him Let me just from h from my hook it let me just take out this absolutely amazing gift I've got for you. Here it is. I've got this giftook. What is on the table time with your dad. Yeah yeah yeah There it is right, You've got it. You've got it. Most people donon't have that time with their dad. Yeah. You've got it Yeah, and the reason why I had that is because Um I sort of had a narrative andm like, look, my parents got divorced and you've s still come to understand that got older And I think that I Jesus Christ, I've never spoken this. What he's going on? Well, maybe he's going to listen to this and I hope he doesn't because I don't know. But I feel guilt because I blamed him for a lot. and it wasn't his fault. Maybe it was his fault It wasn't as much as I thought it was and You know, I said things and yeah P setets sorry swon. No No. I said I love him Why have you not so sorry to him Hm Do do it, man If you think if hang on, it's got to be sincere It's going to be. I'm so sorry because M. Um because It would be admitting to myself that I was just a bit of an idiot for a long time. You just admitted it to me. I know, but it's easier. in a way The fact that it's easer makes it even more important you do it to your dad.ist if you are, if you do feel guilt and you feel you want to say sorry to your dad what an amazing conversation to have. If anyone listening to this If you've got the chance to chat to your parents before they go about the stuff that matters. do it because I tell you, I mean, you said this You said this in your chat with PJ towards the end when you're talking about how It's like It was with the girl that you didn't kiss. Oh yeah, it. And then you were like, I should just I should have just kissed her I should have just kissed her because t later What happened? you didn't kiss that. I didn'tiss that. And then it was my you told yourself, she' like, what you do? I'm just to k to ever since then and you've been It's my metaphor for life though, right? It' my metaphor for life? Like and I've always lived by this is that the regret I felt by not Just kissing her. How wass like wasas if was feering rejection, failure, all these different things and it would have been over with it. would get so I thought, Well, I'm never going I don't want to ever regret something they've never done. so I'm going to go and try and do everything. Well the conversation with your dad is like a billion times more important than not kissing that