Entrepreneurship and Balancing Business with Life

When your friends are having children and you can't, it has a particularly difficult flavour to it because you want to be happy to your for your friends and you are happy for them, but you're mourning either a miscarriage or another failed round. I nearly didn't do the last round, which led to our daughter, because we had a miscarriage. And I was done, Jamie. I was like, I am , you know, spent. Just for someone who is listening, who's going through IVF. As a friend, or is that individual? What can you say or do to help them? Somebody might say this is confrontational, whatever, but it's it's just truth . Hi, I'm Emma Barnett and I am in great company. Award-winning BBC journalist, I'm one of the sharpest interviewers in Britain. So how much will it cost? The way you interview is so great because you are not afraid to ask the tough questions. I held somebody's eye contact for 12 seconds while they tried to answer the question. Who was it with? So there's two, there's the two, you have to hear about both. My producer Darren's looking at me and he's going like this, please talk. Please talk. Emma break it. And I was like, not breaking it. Not breaking it. A journalist runs towards a fire, they don't run away. You have to keep looking at them and keep going towards it. And don't be pushed off by politeness. I don't think I've actually spoken about this properly before, but I collapsed in the park. And it was so awful, Jamie. But I now know I have endometriosis, but at the time I didn't know. What did you expect from the IVF journey? It's a fucking casino . Hey everyone, welcome back to Great Company. A few things to tell you today, which I'm really excited about. We have an amazing guest on the show. Her name is Emma Barnett. Now, you may have heard of Emma Bar nett, but you may not have heard of Emma Barnett. Emma's interviewed some of the biggest names on Earth. She's one of the most intelligent , wittiest, smartest, funniest people that I've ever had the pleasure of interviewing. And I wanted to interview her because she is a master at doing this. She has a way with words, a way with interviewing that is second to none. And I want to get really into the depths of how she does that, how she finds ways to ask the hard questions. How she feels comfortable sitting, being uncomfortable. Because a lot of us in life always want to be comfortable rather than being uncomfortable. And she's kind of feels quite comfortable in that space. We spoke about our upbringing. Um, her life, we also tapped into business and all those different areas. So you're gonna absolutely love this episode today. I'm really excited for it. Now, before we start, I just want to say that if you haven't subscribed to um Great Company. If you can do that one thing for us, just click that button and join the amazing community of incredible people who are already following us. It means we can keep making a better show, keep delivering on guests, and just make the whole experience for you even better. So if you can do that one thing, thank you so much. Okay, here we go. Enjoy this amazing episode of Great Company with Emma Barnett. Do you know what Emma I'm nervous about today? Oh, okay. Oh , don't be. That's that's that's not gonna be good. I get nervous when I interview who I think are smart people because I think at school I had bad dyslexia, but it wasn't diagnosed as dyslexia, so people thought I was stupid, right? So ever since you're a kid, you then think you're stupid. I think that still stays with you throughout time. So knowing how smart you are, I was intimid I am intimidated at interview. Recollections vary, as the Queen once said. Um that's uh that's sad though that it's still in your like can do you think you can rewire that? Because obviously it's I don't know if you can. You know, the way that we judge smarts at school, I've thought about that since is and I'm thinking about it now. I have an eight-year-old who's going through the school system, and I have a three-year old who thinks she's going through the school system as in she's looking at all his homework and trying to get involved, as three year olds do. Um, and I think the ability to pass exams and the way that we emphasise that just it's quite uninspiring, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, totally. And what I find about the school system is life is about collaboration, it's about copying, it's about being inspired by others. But at school you're told to do the opposite. Which is kind of like a weird thing. You're not meant to copy or collaborate. You're not meant to copy or collaborate. That's such a good point. But you are also meant to be able to remember the exact same information as the person next to you. Which is wild, right? And produce it. And produce a similar thing, right? It's and also there's a there's not um at school it's not very uh unique, right, the way that you do things. The arguments the same, the same sort of essays you're writing, everything's quite similar. So I didn't excel at school, so that sort of stayed with me. But my question to you then is what intimidates you? I don't like not being prepared for things. You know, if you just because you've put me in a frame of mind of I suppose work or intellectual I'm predominantly a live broadcaster. But for instance, I have done many interviews where somebody's just been sprung on me and it's gone really, really well. You know, it's it's a dynamic, I love live because anything can happen. Um and there's an adrenaline to that. But of course if, you know, you were suddenly in a situation where you had to interview the Prime Minister and you hadn't read uh any of the papers in advance that they were about to talk about, or something quite policy or detailed. That would intimidate you. I would find that I would find it really concerning, yeah, because I would want to do a good enough job for our listeners and our viewers, you know, and I would want to do a good enough job for me. Okay. But is it when if you had to interview the Prime Minister suddenly and you weren't prepared. Will you be intimidated because you are going to let yourself down all the l all the list of boats? So is I have horribly high standards. Do you? Yes. And I really believe . I really believe in asking the questions that have been very carefully thought about. And that's what I want to be able to do. And then an interview with someone who needs to be held to account, make no mistake , it's very different to an interview I would do with somebody like yourself, through to even you know, someone who who actually perhaps has something quite difficult to answer but is a member of the public. There is a different I always think if I can explain that to people, there is a difference to how we we have to at times speak to those who hold office and need to be held to account. It's a job. I don't ask them about their husbands, I don't ask them about their kids, I don't, that's n it. All that's off limits, really. If it's about how you're deciding the lives of the British people, I have to know exactly what you know. So yes, it would be very wrong if I wasn't worried about that. But I think speaking to your wider point around intimidation and and I tried to learn to roller skate last year. It's gone spectacularly badly. Roller skate or blade? Skate, let's be honest here. So for the five or blade, I could not. He could annoyingly do everything physical and lots of other things as well. But I tried to set myself this challenge because I w you'll laugh at the reason. I watched the film Barbie. Okay. Slept for most of it. And the bit I liked was her going down a boulevard. And I was about to turn forty and I was like, do you know what? I'm gonna learn some fucking skates. Because I'm gonna look really cool. I'm gonna look amazing, getting out some kind of bum bag and doing that. And um I love where this is gone. That is the wildest way to think about roller skating that you wanted to look like Barbie. I was gonna fly to America, I was gonna do that thing. I love Miami. I love the boulevard there. Love all life is there. Lots of our family live in America. And I had this crazy idea. Anyway, I got an injury week three of the lessons, and then I got really intimidated by the whole thing. So I have to get back on my skate soon because I have not in the case. Sorry, that is the lamest intimid ation I've ever heard. You're intimidated to roll a skate. You try having two C-sections, perimenopause and endometriosis, and then getting back up from an injury. Come on, Jamie. I thought I just over. I'm intimidated by my body . I thought I'd opened up a real thing. I was like, here we go. We're gonna get deep. And it's like, I am intimidated by roller skates. We just talked about interviewing the Prime Minister and roller skates. It was the def definition of the high-low . It was . So that's the only thing that intimidates you, roller skating and interviewing the problem. Well, I suppose roller skating, skiing, things where I'm out of control physically. So that makes me ah. So what I'm trying to say is I would like to return in some ways to the physicality of my youth. I'm forty-one, I'm not that old, but I'm not what I was. And you know, I was thinking about your running and that amazingness. I used to love running. And I genuinely, I don't think I've actually spoken about this properly before, but I tried to train for a half marathon when all of our infertility was going on because that might be something positive I could do with my body because I couldn't get my body to have a baby. And we tried for without any assistance for two, two and a half years, and I collapsed in the park. And it was so awful, Jamie. You know, it was my local park, I was with a really good friend who was training with me. It was the Royal Half. I'd never done anything like that before. It was just a half. I mean, not that halves aren't anything, but I wasn't going, I'm gonna do the London Marathon, you know, straight to . And basically my body just couldn't do it. It was all churned up. And I now know I have endometriosis, but at the time I didn't know. And it was all over my bowel. And you know, it's a condition where tissue like the lining of the wounds that should leave the body doesn't and builds up. And at the time I had it quite badly, and I again didn't know, and that was the reason for our infertility as well. So I collapsed very badly, and I've not really run since. And that was nine years ago. So I think there is a deeper answer, probably linked to roller skating, skiing, kind of sort of vigorous pursuits. And I I can walk very well and walk very fast. I'm a good walker. Um I I don't walk anywhere slowly. I'm not a woman who's uh sedentary, shall we say, although I love a sedentary job, microphone's great for that. Um but I and I have a trainer now twice a week my investment of time and money has gone towards weights. And I'm really strong. But I have It's a great way to train with weights. I ha well I ha I I wouldn't have known how. You know, it's that's intimidating, walking into a gym, trying to lift weights for the first time, not hurt yourself. But I feel I'm trying to get my strength and confidence back around my body. I mean you you were a super high achiever, right? And everything you do, you've sort of ach ieved what you've wanted to achieve, and you'll continue to achieve, right? So perhaps that's what it suggests is that when you can't do something that you want to do, that's what gets you irritated, upset, angry , you know, that's what intimidates you 'cause you're like oh I I might fail at that. So therefore I don't want to approach it because oh my God, I can't do that. And that's annoying. I think there's something in that. I mean people aren't very honest about not going near things that they'll fail at. Totally. And I think that's a really clever observation by you. And I would say though, I have put myself in scenarios that aren't the most comfortable in terms of job and life, you know, at times. I am that person in the group who gets asked to do the difficult things, you know, the difficult conversations. Like, we don't want this person to live with us at uni, I had to tell the person. Uh we don't want you know No, I am the shit shuffler. Uh wait, hold on, is this so so so what I so how does that conversation go? There's several versions of of those sorts of things that happen in my life. Um yeah no just there was a large group you remember uni, I don't know if you had this where you just try to figure out who's going to live with who and whatever the reason it was n't even that personal this person didn't really fit into how the group shut down and everyone went Barnett Barnet you need you need to tell them and I was like Barnett this is you everyone call me Barnett at university. What this is at Nottingham, right? Yes. What why has it got to be me? And then I thought, do you know what? They deserve to know . So role play it with me. So I'm your roommate. Let's just try this out. Well we were all in like halls, obviously. Yeah, yeah. N notot yet in the house. So you're not in the house. No, no, no, no. They've not moved in and I've been told to have picked it up. And I'm your friend and I say Oh, so I'm gonna live with you? Yeah. Is that okay? I'm really sorry. It's it's just not gonna work out. Oh my god, brutal. Um but you've got this person, that'll be great. I'm not even sure you should want to live with us. I'll probably be more at yours than at mine. I'm really sorry. But I just wanted you to know straight so you could make your own alternative plans. Fantastic. Everyone can learn from that. But you know, I and my husband is is not uh he of course married me, he's not someone who's unable to to, for instance, you know, have hard conversations to tell me if he doesn't agree with something, all of that. You know, I hate that sort of sexist thing that if a man's married to a strong woman, they must be like No, not a he doesn't like confrontation. Well, no. And and and or all that sort of thing. Whereas I don't love it and I've actually grown to like it less as I get older in my personal life. You trained yourself. But I do feel a responsibility, and maybe it comes back to that again, to at least tell people the truth or or at least try to share what's going on. Let's talk about your interviews, because your interview style is pretty inc impeccable. But the way you interview is so great because you are not afraid to ask the tough questions . I lean away sometimes. I'm trying to do it much, but I lean into the uncomfortable. I'm trying to do that. You feel like you're comfortable being uncomfortable? Yeah, I've got very comfortable with silence as well, which lots of people can't deal with. I can't. Only child over here, so basically lived in silence. But do you think that's what it is? Do you think because I I I'm trying to understand where that comes from because if we look at what we spoke about today, university, let's get Barnett to do it. Let's get Barnett to have those difficult questions. That's a university, right? And who's teaching you that? Or where are you learning that? Well, I do think when you're an only child you grow up only having your meals with adults. So I very quickly learned to engage without fear or favour. I didn't know that phrase then, but that's a guiding motto of most journalists. Or should be. And I think I was encouraged to be inquisitive . One of the most important relationships in my life was with my godmother, who you would have loved. Champagne cocktail always at 6 p.m. Crafty Fag on the Go. Had been told to stop by the doctors, had a very glamorous hair salon in Manchester, used to do all the Coronation Street Stars, uh, and had her own business always, even though you know her husband was also doing his thing, and she was very independent. She was my grandmother's best friend, but my grandmother's both of them died before I was six, uh, both young. And so the greatest gift my mother gave me was my godmother. My it was an inspired choice to give me this woman, Auntie Jean. And I feel she more than any one taught me to to kind of row my own boat. And they're going this way, you can go that way. I think, you know, being a northerner, living down south, and never really, I mean, journalists by definition, again, proper journalists, are the ultimate outsid ers. I am not friends with people I interview typically. Uh it would be very awkward if we were. And so I launched Ready to Talk my interview series on the BBC. We're speaking now, yeah, about three or four months ago. And I've gone back to some people, I've interviewed easily more than two thousand people in my life. And I've gone back to some people that I have kept in my head, Jamie, because when you're a live broadcaster you get four, ten, eleven or thirteen minutes tops of people. And I have had m I've had like, you know, questions 16 17 18 19 to get to and i didn't get to ask them and i've been able with this new space i've wanted to create for years to go back so the woman who was strip searched by the police. What happened next? You know, uh this incredible woman that I I I once interviewed on Woman's art. We went back to her through to we had Tracy Emin on, where we could really go there about womanhood and pain and art. So there's those types of interviews, and I go deep. And I'm not scared, even in those interviews, of course I'm not, of pushing and exploring. But then you got live interviews, and they're a whole other category of conversation. Live broadcasts and live conversation. It's like normal conversation, but on steroids. You know, I got two people in my ear, I got the weather to go to, I've got the news coming on, breaking news is happening. Anything can be going on or nothing can be going on, but you still gotta hold the space with that person and get there. I've had two, I think, of the longest silences on BBC Radio where the listener has thought either I've died or the guest has died or, the whole network has died. Um, one was, I think, nine seconds and one was twelve. I held somebody's eye contact for twelve seconds while they tried to answer the question. Who was it with? So there's two there's the two. You have to hear about both. One was a woman trying to become an MP in Yorkshire and the Labour Party was under fire, she was for Labor, uh, about racism and anti-Semitism. And I just asked her a question about what she thought about what she thought about it. And she did not know what to say. And so that was one of the And she just didn't she just she just didn't speak. And my my producer Darren's looking at me, a bit like your team are here now, and he's going like this: please talk. Please talk. We're getting messages from the controller. Everybody thinks we've died. Emma, break it. And I was like, not breaking it, not breaking it. And so we just literally sat and she had a battle. And then she said something. But the silence was the thing. And then the other one was : um, do you remember Brenda Hale, Baroness Hale? She, the judge of the one who who ruled about Boris Johnson, she came on. Judges and lawyers are so diplomatic. Yeah . I asked her a question if the justice secretary should have always had legal training because for the first time we were having justice secretaries who didn't have any legal training. It's actually just an interesting question. She realiz ed that she might be viewed as being political and she was head of the Supreme Court at the time. I think that was the role. She just didn't speak. But Emma, can I ask in your head, right? When you ask areing like a hard question or you know someone is fumbling and most people find it awkward, and they're like, uh are you thinking in your head, No, I'm doing this because actually I want to know, or are you also thinking as a producer, this is going to be great I'm thinking this is a decent question. And you have to . Can you please answer it? So it's a natural thing. You're not thinking in your head I've gone down the road. I need I need to know what you think . And I think we all need to know what you think. All of the moments that have been moments are usually from Jamie. The simplest of questions. Jeremy Corbyn, how much how much will that policy cost? So good. It's so good. And you say, um you say something like you've just done this, you should know the number. You should know what the number is canceling the policy. Yeah, you should know what the number is and he's going to come back to you. And you go, Well, you should know what it is. It's so good. Why and when. Five W's of journalism. For someone who's listening right now, who's studying journalism, who wants to get into it or perhaps interview people, what are those techniques that you think can really nail an interview if it if it's only eight minutes, six minutes to have to nail anyone. But once they're not doing what they're meant to be doing, you just don't back away from it. So I I don't design interviews to nail. I design interviews to find out. What I would say to anybody is do your research, think in the round, and then if there is a silence or a an awkward moment , you know, a journalist runs towards a fire, they don't run away. You have to keep looking at them and keep going towards it. That takeaway, running towards the fire running rather than away, so good. But I think that's in life. So good. You know , while I am a journalist, I would say I have also, by dint of speaking to so many people, become, you know, basically professional conversationist. Yeah. And I can tell when people are not on, you know, one of the most underused questions, under like sort of abused questions we have in our societies, How are you? So we throw it away at the beginning. We start every conversation on the phone or in person, Hey, how are you doing? Yeah, I'm great. How are you? Okay. You've got to go back to that question. So another tip is don't be afraid in life, or if you were to be a journalist or interviewer , go back. You know, if you don't get the answer the first time, nobody answers how are you accurately the first time? We sort of trash it away. And it's it to me it's it's everything. How are you really? What's going on? You know, as you can tell, I'm not the best at small talk, but I like to know what's going on. Like I come home, I know there's this trope about men, and sadly I do think it's a little bit true that they can come home from a night out and their partner , man or woman, but let's say a woman in this scenario, says, How is so-and-so? How are they? What's going on? Have they changed job? What's you know? And they'll be like, I don't uh , we just had a great time. It's really fun. I'm like, I'm you know, probably through journalism, but I think I've always been a bit like this. Key lines. Come away. Detail key detail newslines. What are the headlines? The headline can be he stubbed his toe, but that's still there's something that happened and I wanna know about it. In a relationship, you have to go through the great and you think it's always gonna be great, but there's also the bad and there's the hard. And you went through a really hard time with your fertil ity journey, right? Yeah. And I think as you mentioned before, when you had endometriosis, right, which is an issue within your own body, your own body was letting you down in a way. And your husband was there to support you. And that's must have been hard in a relationship point of view. Who talked to me about that? Because we had to have two lots of IVF, we ended up having s uh seven rounds in total, but we did six of those rounds for our daughter , our second child. And actually the first time trying when we couldn't get pregnant was was w was awful in a different way because we didn't know why it wasn't working for quite a long time. And then it was one round of IVF. But the endurance then required to do six times, and we lost a baby on the fifth round when trying to have our daughter was of a whole other magnitude. Plus it was locked down, so my husband wasn't allowed to come. We did all our IVF in the NHS and I say that I had to pay for it after the first round. We had to pay for it. But I always want to say that so that people don't think they always have to go to Harley Street or to really expensive places. You can do it on the Because that's the narrative, right? Yeah, you can do it on the NHS. You still pay thousands, but it's quite a bit cheaper. And what's beautiful about the NHS is there are no bells and whistles. All the drugs arrive. It looks like a big Chinese takeout, way less fun, and it just comes and you do it. And you know, we created IVF in this country. It's incredible. It was in a cold lab in Bolton, not far from where I grew up. The I the first ever IVF baby is only a few years older than me. She's 43 now as we speak. I've met her, I've interviewed a Louise Brown. It was quite a stigma back in the day, but we've come a long way. Anyway, I say all of that, and to go back to the relationship, I think it tested us in different ways , especially when it became extremely medicalized. What was incredible about Jeremy is at no point did he blame me. I felt terrible. We couldn't have a baby because of me. That is not the narrative of I'm trying to blame myself or no, it's just fact. You know, I didn't work . And my God, this luffy, wonderful man deserved to be a father. I deserved to be a mother, I hoped, but I wasn't able to do it naturally. And he I mean that it was quite funny when the IVF decision was made, because that was made within seconds, as you can tell, relatively decisive. Met an amazing woman in the NHS and she she just said, Oh, for God's sake, just try IVF. What are you doing? You've got endometriosis, you've tried for two years, it's not going well. You've got nothing to lose. And you know, I always imagined if you did have to take that particular decision, it would be quite a big moment. You'd go home, you'd have a chat. Jeremy was in the other room at the hospital, and I came out and said, I've just signed the papers for starting IVF tomorrow. And he was like, So sorry, do we need to talk about this? I went, No, on this particular occasion, like I it's all me anyway. You have to appear for one thing. Yeah, yeah. Here we go. Good luck. Um, I'm sure you man'llager , and I'll just be doing the rest. And um but obviously it's not just like that. Although he's not one of those men. I do have to say, those couples or people who do it certainly not just with themselves where the partner in in the case uh where it's a heterosexual couple the man does all the needles and you see it on social and he's so nice and she's so like, thank you. And Jeremy said, Yeah, well, I can't do any needles, so good luck. I didn't have to do that either. I mean, by the end of it, Jamie, the first time I did it, I was obviously very nervous to inject myself. By the end, I'm like, you know, wherever I am, pants. Whole fiction started as well. Whatever, like chuck it in my needle, my sharps mash like I had a rucksail in my sharp spin round with me. Um so yeah, I mean obviously did all the right things at the right time, but it was it was part of my life for a long time but our relationship really was very strong. I had a very good friend that I also could rely on at the time he was going through it and that also helped. So not everything had to be said to Jeremy. Um, he did not talk to anyone about it when we were going through it. I told him he could though. I it wasn't like I was like, we can't talk about it. I said, please do if you want to. I tell you the amazing thing about him. I feel like I only just met you, but I feel you would be the same. Is he said he knew it's gonna happen. Yeah, yeah. Whole way through. I'm like, no. No. And the second time, and it really wasn't happening, you know, round three, round four, I'm going mental that try me It might sound silly, but what did you expect from the IVF journey then about the actual reality? I think what you read about IVF is can be quite gruesome in the sense of how many rounds it can take. And some people go on and on and on . And f you know, for so many different reasons. And for s for other reasons people can't go on, you know, financially, emotionally, they're told by the doctors there's no point, heartbreakingly. I think I was intimidated by how much it could be my life. There are a lot of medical appointments. You have to go in every single day at certain points in the cycle. I didn't know that. The amazing doctor who looked after me, I was on air at 10 a.m. every day. Uh, this was when I was at Woman's hour the second time around, and he would come in a just a bit earlier because I needed to go and do my bloods at 5:30 before getting to the studio at 6 . And we have you know quite a long lead-up time for a 10am programme because we have to book things on the day, and you know, things like that are just amazing, but it was my life. Um, even though I'm I tried very much for it not to be, I was worried about that, and that did come true. But you d you asked what wasn't or what was different. I mean , in other ways I completely didn't want to know about it and did use to know I did the opposite of what I usually do. I didn't read anything. I didn't research it. Why? Because 'cause I was like, there is no control here. It's it's it's a it's it's a fucking casino. Yeah. It's it's just roll the roll the dice. This is this is casino time. Like I yeah, I don't like casinos. So you didn't so you didn't so you just went into it? Yeah. Naive, because you just thought, right, this is gonna be I'll submit to this. I spoke to lots of people in the sense of I when I spoke to the doctors, I didn't not ask questions, but I didn't then go and do loads of extra. I think people can drive themselves It's like the Google method, just Googling Googling crazy. Yeah. And I really, despite the challenges I have with endometriosis and doctors, I still very much trust medic ine. And I put my ha myself in the hands of people who are trying to help me have a family. Yeah. I nearly didn't do the last round, you know, which led to our daughter because we had a miscarriage. And I was done, Jamie. I was like, I am , you know, spent. I'm I'm I'm emotionally, physically wrung out . And my friend, Dr. Katie, as we always call her, she's not a doctor in the IVF world, but she's it's completely different sphere, but she was the one going through the time. It's like a film. We lived on the same road. We hadn't known each other before. We both had one boy each. The audacity of us wanting a second child haunted us, you know, we should just be happy with what we've got, but we would like another child. And she was a couple of rounds ahead of me, if you like, but we had a miscarriage on the same round. And weirdly, her response was the thing that got me back in the ring because she said to me, Emma , I know it's awful you've had a miscarriage. And we did find out there was was something wrong with that baby. She said, nature's done what it needed to do, but it works. We've got proof. You can get pregnant again. You gotta go again. And I was like, you're crazy. You are fucking crazy. Like I can't do this again. And she was like and I'd gone out for a walk with her because we'd done so many COVID walks when you were allowed. And I came back and and Jeremy was also like, We're not gonna go again, that's fine. Like, I don't I can't watch you go through this again. And um , because I honestly did all of it on my own, like he was not present for any of it because of COVID. And um it's a lot, it was yeah, it was it was a a huge amount. Anyway, I came back in and I was sort of like like vibing, buzzing a bit. He was like, Oh my god, we're going again. She got you to go again and I was like sh anyway, that was our baby. And she also got pregnant that same round, and our babies were born three days apart. Which is just insane. That is amazing. Just for someone who is listening, who's going through IVF, as a friend, or is that individual what can you say or do to help them? Somebody might say this is n not very kind or confrontational, whatever, but it's it's just truth . I'm sorry to say that I do find that the fertile can't really comfort the infertile. Okay . You can a bit. But not really. I believe in life, the older I get with certain things I've had to navigate. You've got your always got your, you know, your woman, she's very close to you, always. She'll love you. She can depend on you. You can bring her soup, you can bring her vodka, whatever she needs, right? But then for certain scenarios, you get a new squad . And certain people step up. I had an IVF fairy. I've had two. I'm now a fairy to a few other women who are going through it. And they just text me any time of day. I drop everything, I reply. Like we have a we have a hidden language. Similarly with endo, similarly now with perimenopause for me. You know , there are just certain people that step up a little bit more because you're in it together. And that doesn't mean your other friends can't help you. And I can understand that some of my friends, especially my I IVF years, felt left out because I go, you know, you go into a bit of a h ole. And especially that particular thing when your friends are having children and you can't, it has a particularly difficult flavor to it because you want to be happy to your f for your friends and you are happy for them, but you're mourning either a miscarriage or another failed round. Yeah. So so I just think it's particularly complicated. Are you is there a sense of unfairness and dare I say the jealousy. The feelings of darkness suddenly when you can't get something. It's not it shouldn't be about other people, but pregnancy, especially as a woman, it's so hard to see on other women when you can't get that. And that is why I'll never forget. And I've done quite a lot journalistically, I don't think I've done a lot personally, but I've tried to do it through the platforms I have to always remember the women who don't get there and the women and men who don't get there. And when my last episode of Women's Hour, I prioritised having a conversation with women who wanted children and could never have them. Because history's written by the victors, Jamie. The people who do well get to have the biggest voice. So after the miscarriage, I was sat downstairs in our living room and I didn't sleep. And my husband came down the next day. You know, we've still got a child at this point. We've got a three-year-old. It's not like when you're trying and you don't have a child. We've still got to look after a baby boy, our incredible son, you know, the boy, baby, a mother. And he said to me, What well, I feel like you've made some big decisions tonight. And I was like, yeah, I've made three quite big decisions. He was like, what are they? And I was like, one , I'm going to resign from Newsnight. Oh my God. He was like, okay. I said, two, I've said yes to going on Michael Mc Intyre's The Big Wheel. I was like, fuck it, I'm getting in this giant wheel and answering some questions and winning, as it turned out, Becky, I helped get this woman 90 grand. And number three, I've written an article and I've submitted it to the Times. And he went, sorry, what? About what? And I said, that we've been trying and we've had five rounds, one miscarriage and there is no baby. I am done with people only writing about IVF when it works. And that is still the article that I get the most. Yeah. I get men, loads of men write to me. I found this article, me and my wife are reading it, we're sobbing. Because I wanted to write about it when it went wrong. I didn't want to write about it when I got there . It's interesting that's so open. It's it's so open on it. It was a bit. It was a bit. But I was like, fuck this. I was so frustrated. Fertile people, women who want to have children don't have to give it a lot of thought. You don't sit and go , oh, really want to be a mum. I mean maybe you do , but typically you don't. Weirdly, when you're infertile, you have to sign up for a whole system and process potentially. Got you. That makes you have to decide. Got it. And then I made a clear thing, which a lot of women come and talk to me about still, that I would also allow myself to say if it was shit being a mum or not, because I wasn't gonna make myself have that terrible thing of be grateful for them at every single second of every single day. Be grateful for the experience. Of course I am. I cannot believe on Mother's Day. Pickle one and pickle two, as we'll call them. Um, they do love eating pickles and they are my absolute pickles. And I'm a Jewish mum, right? I'm looking at pickle one and pickle two, crawling all over my husband, our virus-ridden household as it happened to be. Thanks so much to my son's class. And um at certain moments, I'm like, oh my gosh, how ? I think I'll never get over I will never get over being a mother in a way that's different to saying, I love being a mum, da da da It's a sliding doors moment. And yeah, I work very hard at that sliding doors. But you can work really hard and leave the casino with nothing. You gave me your paperback book, Maternity Leave Service, a Love Letter to Mothers from the Front Line of Maternity Leave. And you've written in this, which I saw, Maternity Leave can seem as though it is almost designed to make you not feel like you on the outside just as much as the inside. That's so interesting for so many different reasons, right? We twelve weeks into our baby, right? And Mazletok. Thank you so much. It's fucking wild. Yeah, yeah. It is. How you doing over there, kid? Fucking hell. How many sweets are you eating? Oh my gosh. I don't know if I'm coming or going. I don't know what the hell is going on. People will you say to me, oh, make sure you get sleep before. And I was like, I don't need it. You can't bang sleep. You can't bang. And I was like, I don't need sleep. Doesn't happen.. Freaking okay Maternity feels like and you write about this sort of in in your book, it's meant to be like a holiday, but it's the opposite. I know for a holiday. I I I just I had sort of three outfits on repeat . I did look like Steve Jobs, five stretchy black pollen cks. I I I just I had a drill time. I mean, I was I was just walking miles with nowhere to go. But then can I ask you this? Because you had been through IVF and all these different things, did you feel like you had to love it? But at the same time, you were like, well, this real- I'm a massive feminist and I read my way through anything, Jamie. I was like, hang on, let's find the cusks, the Rachel Cusks of this world. There's an amazing book, I'll send it to your wife, called What Mothers Are Doing When They Look Like They're Doing Nothing. And it's really liberating because it tells you, amongst loads of other things, it's the accounts of lots of different women. Don't take credit for the good stuff your kid does, because you d also then don't have to be responsible for the bad stuff they do. It's a very liberating account of motherhood and a healthy way. There's a whole section of the world that doesn't know about the psychology of a good enough mother, which was coined by the British doctor Donald Winnicott. I had access through my one superpower, Jamie. I can read anything quickly, conjugate it and explain it. That is and so I read Chat GPT. I read everything about the experience of the mother. Now what I didn't think was out there, and this is a very, very short book, and I honestly get amazing messages because of how short it is, people are happy. Is that I wanted to capture the experience live because I couldn't find anything about this period of time and I suddenly realized it was like service. Maternity service. The word service, when I'm chopping the ninth carrot of the week, the twelfth cucumber, the fourteenth red pepper. I mean it's so deadening and boring. Service helps me dig deep. The word service is linked to the word family, but it's also linked to the word love. Wow. And I have came, now I'm a second child, I made peace with so much of it. But the first time I fought loads of it. Because it's not stimulating. I have watched time pass . I have genuinely mistimed something with my daughter's nap then having to do the school pickup because once you have the blessed position of two, you have to time two children. It's like a really bad DJ set. And I've mistimed something by 40 minutes once. So that everything was done. I was ready to go and get my child, but it was an hour early. And I've literally watched the clock turn. Because I was I didn't have anything else to do and I wasn't going to start anything else. And you actually don't often, I'm don't know if your wife said this to you, if you do get a tiny bit of a moment to yourself, I call them from this amazing writer, um, she said sips of selfhood. So me and my husband try and give each other like an hour or two here. You've got to know what you wanna go and do with that time. Hundred percent. You've often lost the energy by the time you get it. And that's the talent of parenthood, is to snatch some joy as well as the joy of the parenting. Okay. So can I ask you something then? Honest opinion, be very honest with me. Right. So I don't seem capable of being a good one, I don't think you're that honest. So here we go. So I'm as you I'm a big enthusiast, I'm a very big optimist, right? I'm I'm high energy. No, I really like the energy. Okay, I'm gonna like marinating you. And I'm is there a Jamie Baron? You could like Sydney swinging her bath water, you can get mine . Um but when my wife uh gave birth and then she was on maternity leave and we had Christmas and all these different things. I would as I do post social media things, I would post social media. The table looked phenomenal. Oh so you've seen this. The table looked Okay, here we go. Divine I want to know your honesty. I had su ch a good table and it was nowhere near. Okay, so I want to hear your honest opinion. Where did the tablecloth from? Anyway, that's a separate conversation. So I want to hear your honest opinion. So I would write something like POV when your wife is um smashing Christmas. Smashing Christmas and postpartum. And then I did another one where she hosts a red carpet at the BAFTA film. And I did another one where I said, when your wife is 11 weeks post-partum and hosting an award. And her biggest fear was this. She's built up her career. Especially come from reality TV. She's built it up. Yeah. Right. In an incredible way. And she's worried that as soon as she had a baby, it was all gonna go. So when an opportunity comes up, she's like, Well, I have to do it because otherwise it's gonna go. And that's what she said. But that just came up. Yeah. But I challenge it. However, you get You got a bit of shit, didn't you? So what is your opinion of it? Ha ha ha! Did you get a whole dumper truck at it? I like it though. I don't I I sort of I Are you actually okay with it? Yes. You are! Oh my god! So many people are not Oh you get it's quite hard to touch the sides of me. I don't know what's wrong. I don't know. Boarding school. I I don't think I need to go to boarding to school. Yeah, you do at forty one. As the as the estrogen leaves my body, I need a dose. This is maybe what's been wrong. We should send all perimenopausal women to the schools that teach you how not to feel. It's but i I but my weird thing is this, is that if I think what I'm doing is right, then I don't care what you like. Then I'm okay. If someone says something that if someone said to me, I don't know, um , I don't know what it would be, but something that I'd be on the edge of, uh, I would then get worried. I'm I'm big people pleaser. I want people to like me. I like people liking me, and I like making people feely happ. But if I do something that I think is right, I don't really care what other people think. We're very similar and different. Because I as a woman have you ever heard of the thing called the dominance penalty? No, I can't wait. So you can be in a meeting as a woman and a man . Yeah. And I could say the same thing as you said it. Maybe it's something like we have to change as a business. Yes. Jamie, great point. Emma, what a bitch. You have to develop a talent as a woman in the working world certainly and sometimes socially for being disliked. Even if you don't want to be. So I also want people of course to engage with me and hopefully like me, but I can't guarantee that. So maybe I I hope they could respect me, okay? Ah . You know, that would be a good second. But the line of work I'm in, you can only imagine the types of messages at times that I also receive, whether I've done a big interview with a prime minister or the man trying to be and I you know something went wrong in that interview and now they blame me for the state of the country, you know, whatever the situation is. So I was interested how you feel Did you do do it they affect you? Well to your point where we're similar is I have come to the position and I've had to learn this, though, because it's not something you're born with. We weren't also born in an era where we are a similar age, where social media was the norm and anyone could contact you. And it's incredible that in some ways anyone can contact you , but it also has completely no context to it. Is my view is those who matter know and those who don't don't. And I live by that. That is great. And so it sounds like I'm stealing that. But it sounds like you are as well. Yeah. Um sorry, so to come back to your question. But I really care what my friends think and what my family thinks people who matter. And they and and they know. Yeah. And then therefore they'll know. So to your question about your wife, which you know, I'm so I'm all here for not least because the table was so gorgeous. And I really need to know how she did it. Um But would that I'm I'm I'm Hanukkah Christmas Jew, okay? I love Hanukkah, and then we've got to go straight into Christmas. And my Christmas game just needs to get a little bit better. Sorry, Rabbi. But I love Christmas. Anyway, the thing is about that , is I think your optimism is swimming in a sea of increasing cynic ism that is the internet . So I think what comes to you as support or this is beautiful or look at this cheerleading. You'd be a lovely cheerleader. Great cheerleader. Is going to come across as smug. Bragging. You think different. No, no, to those people. Yeah. So I'm never told this story before, but I very rarely reply to people who send me abuse. Of course. And a lot of them are men, so it's quite scary. And you know, it can be very sexist, very sexual, and at times anti-Semit ic. So you know that's a really nice combination. Not gonna be like slipping into your DMs, right? It's a perfect combination, though. Beautiful. Beautiful. But there was a woman who wrote to me not long after I'd had a baby and I went cool night out to the British Museum and it was an opening, it was a reception. And I had honestly the schlochiest outfit, like a black polar neck, black stretchy jeans, but I had a cool blazer and it's an old one from Zara and I love it. And I'd had my hair done. And done for ages. Had some shades on. You know the look. You know, you look good. But like I looked fine. It wasn't like banging, okay? It was anyway. I just sent a little selfie on Instagram. And this woman messages me . You bitch . You smug bitch. Think of all those women who can't afford to dress up, have their hair done, and have any support so they can go out a few weeks after their baby's been born . Jamie, I was wearing basically the Steve Job s outfit, but with a blazer. I don't think I smelt great, but my hair was good. I'll admit it, Barnet by Name, Barnet by Nature is my thing. But like, it's a 35-pound hair dry, blow dry situation . Anyway, I was so like, no. You don't get to shit on my parade here. Fair enough if I've interviewed Corbin or Boris Johnson and you don't like that. But no. So I wrote back to her privately. I never do things publicly. I just said my blazer was about £45 five years ago from Zara. My outfit is the one I've worn all day and breastfed in. I'm going to the British Museum to see the opening of something Egyptian and I'm trying to have a nice night. You didn't need to send me that. It's really upset me. She wrote back. Or maybe I didn't I said it's it's hurt me. She wrote back. I'm so appalled. I'm s uh uh at how I wrote to you . I've shown my daughter what I sent to you. I'm so sorry. And she's just made me fulsomely apologize and realise how awful it was, especially to a new mum. My daughter's going through IVF and it's not working. And I just feel really jealous that you've managed to have a child. I think the people who shit on you, not all of them , it's often about them. That's really interesting. Because I do think that when people are wrote there's that whole thing that when people are saying online comments which are terrible, it's because they're reflecting what's happening in their own lives, right? That's where they're doing it. Margaret Atwood once said, the great writer who I've loved interviewing over the years, context is all . The context of you posting that, somebody who didn't like the post, for instance, may have only seen that post. They don't know that you're an optim istic, kind of cheerleading kind of guy. They might just think he's got an amazing house. You know what I mean? It might just be basically, the old green-eyed thing as well. They need context. You need context. We all need context. So listen, I I did a job 12 weeks after the birth of our first child. One job. And I was very impressed. A man asked me to come and stand in for Andrew Ma on BBC One to host his Sunday morning political interviews programme. He very rarely was ever off. And I had been in the running for if there was ever an opening to stand in before I'd had a baby. And to to his credit, this guy remembered that and even though I just had a baby, still offered it to me. And I was like, I'm gonna do it. 'Cause I don't know when this'll come around again. And I was breast pumping like just before I hadn't read the news for two months, three months. It was the height of Brexit stuff. I was breastfeeding as I went on. I was breastfeeding as I came off. Jesus. And then I was back home, you know, four hours later, and a few days later, I had the surreal but amazing experience of watching the people on Goggle Box watch me do it, which was hilarious. They were like, who's this Holly Willoughby type on Andrew Mark? And then they were like, fuck, she's like a lion. Oh, she's just killed him. You know, and I was like, this is amazing. This is amazing. But it's really too to put ev those who criticized your wife or you around the eleven week red carpet thing, she will have had, I don't want to speak for your wife, and the Andrew Maher and the BAFTA thing, you know, whatever it was, they're all different, but they're not in some ways. When you've had a baby, it's like your skin has come off. And she will have felt so many different things doing that. Completely. And that's what that's the only thing that ever gets my my back up right is that I don't care people going after me, whatever. But if someone you you don't know the backstory of what my wife has been through through the pregnancy and everything like that, but yet you can come. And I don't care, but it's when people go for someone else. And they didn't really go for her, but I I can't stand that. Well in America, 11 weeks post-partisan, you'd be back running. You'd be back doing the law firm or whatever your shop, you know, that's the whole thing. In your university days, did you ever have to break up with anyone? Uh I think the only major breakup we sort of did with each other, the one that I would classify as that . Um, we were in a friendship group and we're still friends, actually. Um, and then quite quickly, I met my husband. Really? In the third year. And so all the previous experiences were not really sort of serious relationships. Why was your husband different? Oh here we go. It was proper slam dunk. It was incredible. It really really was. It really really was. And I am not that woman and I became that woman. Uh or that person. A friend introduced us. Very, very funny., lovely woman I studied politics with her. And I was I would just become the president of the student theatre and I was so excited. But I go to this meeting, Jamie, spreadsheets are not my thing. Okay . I think you know, I've got other strengths and I get to the meeting and it's very clear, kind of commensurate with the country, the arts budget's being cut. my first meeting and I'm at the student union or whatever and I was what? And I'm thinking how, are we going to send plays to Edinburgh and all these crazy ambitious things you can do at a student theatre? And my friend taps me on the shoulder, and she's sitting next to Jeremy and she goes, Jeremy knows all about this shit. He knows all about budgets, really good at all of that. He's to do with the the week one exec or whatever it was called. Um he's single and he's really fit. That's literally like in front of us both. And I looked at him, and I'm told I'm much I I I was I had a slightly it was never that strong, but I I believe him that I had a slightly stronger northern accent than being from Manchester. And I looked him up and down, apparently, I don't really remember that bit and I said, okay. And I like came round to him or got him to come around to me and apparently I asked for his number within seconds. Again, I don't really remember that bit, but he's confident . Well, he was going to help me, so there was that. But then I was like, yeah, he is really fit. And I want to go to this particular club that night. He ran a club night at uni, so seemed to be able to get tickets to things. I see he's quite cool as well. And I was like, okay. And then that was the beginning. I mean, it wasn't the first proper date date that happened about three months later in London, but that was the start. And when I went on that proper date in London, he took me out in Covent Garden and he was panicking. It was a Sunday night and what you what would you do then sort of twenty one years ago on a Sunday night, it wasn't quite a seven day a week operation London in the same way, perhaps as it is now or or any city. So he took me to Ronnie Scott's. Love Ronnie Scott. And Live live jazz. Yeah, I mean he's a he is a musician, not as his job, but he but he's beautiful percussionist. So it was a cool move, right? Yeah. I texted a friend from the toilet and said he's the guy I'm gonna marry . I'm a really not always, but often very decisive person. And I can I can feel that too. And I couldn't believe though, because you know, people had said to me for years, you'll know when you know. I was only 21 at the time, but I did know, and I thought, wow, that's a bit early. It's a bit early. It's a bit early. It's a bit early. It's a bit early. Yeah. It's a little bit early. It's a little bit early. Um he did not feel that. I just want to put for the record. Would you say that? He he took him a bit longer, uh for sure. So I don't want to make out we were in this kind of like filmic moment. I think it took Jeremy a few minutes. What was it for someone listening now when they're when you they are trying to find their person right? Because trying to I think when we were younger, it was much it's not easier, but there was l a lot less complications finding your person. There were no real dating apps, and social media wasn't. You'd have to sell yourself. You'd'dn have to sell yourself. There weren't other options. The grass wasn't greener. You met someone that you fancy that you'd like, that you found attractive. It was like, well, this is the first person I found. Now you go. Now you go on to Instagram and there's a thousand people that you find attractive and interest and all these different things. So it's a lot harder. So what were those things that really attracted you to Jeremy? I loved his face. that's a great start. Yeah, that's a good start. I still feel I could look at that face forever. We were never running out of anything to say to each other. There was a constant back and forth. There was a just a connection conversationally. And I hadn't till that point met anyone. And I don't mean in that I don't mean uh debating, I mean thoughts, ideas, observations about the world, just someone I never wanted the conversation to end with. And I still do his head in like, well go to bed and we will have been speaking. Certainly from when the children have gone to sleep 'cause they don't let you talk. You'll find this when your baby gets older. And they literally say, Stop talking and and conversation block. But once we're allowed to talk to each other, we may have been speaking for two hours of an evening, and then we'll go to bed and I'll go off the pillow, even if I've got a three a.m. alarm or whatever it is for the next day, I'll be like, Can we talk? He's like, Emma, no, we can't talk anymore. How can you have anything else to say? But I store stuff up to tell him throughout the day. And that stimulation is what's like connects us, right? Like having that. I think conversation is everything. I remember when I met Sophie and um you know, I did a television show called Made in Chelsea, which you've seen, right? I may have admitted to you that I haven't. It's a reality show I heard it did quite well. It did quite well. It's a reality show about being poshed. That'll make you love it more. But I made a deal with myself that I wouldn't fall in love on the show. And what I would do is this this was a show, this was entertainment, this was fun, this was exciting, but it's a show. So you have to almost um go in in a certain you go in and you have a certain mentality because you would have to lots of people on that were my friends before. So I was very good friends with them. But the other people I never really try to get close to because it meant that if you had to have tricky conversations to make entertainment, you were able to do it because there was a barrier. This was slightly subconscious, right? Yeah, I but coming out of it, I psychologically realize that now. That's what I would do. But I would do it subconscious, right? Which is a weird thing. And I think I learned that from boarding school. Anyway, with my wife, when she came on, it was like a whole different thing. And I remember when I started, we started dating, we dated privately and quietly. We didn't tell anyone, ' Icause didn't want the show to know. I remember my mum phoning me up and saying, Who you dating? I said, I've met this person, it's different. And she went, Oh, here we go. And I went, No, it's different. And and it was the same thing. You know when you know. And I I it's I did know. It was so weird. And I don't understand I just was different. She stimulated me. I found her I loved her face as you said. I just loved everything about her. And I remember thinking I could go and sit in a pub in the middle of nowhere just playing Jenga with her and it,'d make me happy. And and I had to be stimulated all the time. Jenga's a great game as well. The best. But it's interesting, isn't it? Like I um done a couple of interviews recently on um my podcast, Ready to Talk. And it's amazing that that exists that if you know, you know. And then what that might have to see you through. And I've interviewed two women in different scenarios who have ended up basically being their husband's carer in the end of their thirties, early forties. And you know, if you think about what gets you together, yes, that connection and all of that, but it's also quite base. You fancy them, you know, and that doesn't mean, as we know with divorce rates what they are, that doesn't mean it will carry you through everything. You know, life is going to deal to you what it's going to deal to you. So it is kind of amazing what when those relationships do last and they get tested to levels you could never imagine. And you take it right back to, we just had a great snog in a club. And from there on I I was in, or we met on a crazy TV, reality TV style show, and that was it. And now we have a baby. The other thing my husband and I did, which was probably ill-advised timing-wise, but has been amazing, is we set up a business together. Yeah. One of the things that you were interviewed about that I felt very interested by and wanted to ask you about was, you know, it's amazing to build a business. So we we have a business called Colour Your Streets, which is um we're mapping the whole of the UK and then the world in colouring books, so local colouring books of neighborhood cities and towns. So we have more than 200 in the UK. We've also done big cultural institutions like museums and Buckingham Palace and whatnot. But you were interviewed, and I remember reading, I think it was in the Times, and you you talked about while entrepreneurship is gl amorized, you also are your own boss and you can never stop. And I find you know I think it's got huge benefits, but how do you deal with the fact that 'cause we're I'm now living and breathing this, we have our own business. It's basically like our third child. It's not. But you know, it all started in our home. Now it's not all in our home. Thank God our daughter's bedroom's no longer a stock room. Especially now you're a dad. How are you finding that? Have you got any advice? Because you're much further along. And it's a great question. So I I look at it like this. I think there's a there's a narrative that's happening, right? That you should be an entrepreneur. You should start a business. Go, you shouldn't be part of this matrix. Go and start a bus iness. Be your own boss. And I agree with that in lots of ways. However, be careful what you wish for. Because I think a lot of people see it as a they see the end goal. So they see the I don't know, the Steve Jobs or, they see these people where they think, oh, I'm gonna make lots of money. And so that's what their vision is. I'm gonna make lots of money and be my own boss. Being your own boss is one of the hardest things I think I've ever done. It is so hard because you have to manage people, you have to make sure their lives are okay. You're responsible over them. You have to make sure the product, whatever you're doing is still going. It's it's 24-7. It never stops. Um so balancing it i is really, really, really hard. And once you start it, you can't turn it off. You have to keep going. No. And that's the hard thing. Then you mix in doing it with your partner as well, which I do with my wife. We have a podcast and we have a business where we immediately business jam port together. Um and that comes with its complications as well. Any advice? You gotta love it, what you do because you have to turn up every single day. We both said we like colouring it. You like colouring it, it's great. Um I think remember it's just colouring in books. Sometimes we get so obsessed with it that we think it's the be-all and end all. And actually, we're just making content. You're just doing kind of I'm just sending sweets. Yeah, you gotta put it in perspective. You gotta put it in perspective. And sometimes it's very hard to do that. And communication is everything. Everything. I mean that was sort of a half-hearted but those are the key things I think. And I think your message though around what I would say with a front row seat now to you know proper business. Yeah. Uh like we're not just a start up anymore. You know, this is a this is uh a living, breathing organism. But it doesn't get easier, by the way. It probably gets worse. Right, okay. Yeah, get ready. I'll be speeding. It doesn't get easier. Emma, thank you. Thank you. Are you kidding me? Like, I want everyone to go and listen to your podcast, Ready's Tk.al We're gonna leave a link in the show description. Go and check out your colouring books as well, colour your streets that you do with your husband. It's incredible. I and just with that, it's it's exciting, but whoa, it wears you down. So get right Hold on. You won't but it's great. It's the best thing in the world. I do need in exchange the entire details of the Christmas table. Okay? You have to ask my wife. Okay, fine. But you know, at some point I need to up my game. She's amazing. Honestly. Emma, thank you. Listen, we'd like to end our conversation with eight quick fire questions. Are you ready? I am. What's a single phrase that makes you smile or cheers you up? This too shall pass. It's one of my favourites. I love that . Best compliment anyone's ever given you. Oh, that was a great snog . That is good. What scares you most about yourself? Oh my b ody. The pain. When was the last time you cried? Uh about four hours ago. I I've been just fighting the end of a virus and I'm so frustrated by being pawing. And so you cried because of that? Sheer frust ration. What's something you can't let go of? I do this thing when I can't sleep. I walk round mentally the every room of my childhood home, which we we don't have anymore. So I I miss it. What's your guilty pleasure? Chippy chips, like fat ones, salt and vinegar. Really? Fat one, salt and vinegar, though. Yeah. More, more, lots of vinegar? A lot of vinegar, I am northern. And you don't have any curry sauce? No, but I do quite like a bit of curry sauce. But on the side, I I I have to have my food and constituent parts. It's quite strange. What turns you off ? Hmm. I don't like um iron filings. Do you remember at school if they were magnetized and they look like tiny hairs? Sorry, that it's so niche. That's what that's it. That turns you up and you know what? As a journalist, specificity is golden. Yeah, it's amazing. The details is the best. What turns you on? A wonderful whiskey or a Volcamartini and a roaring fire. Do you have vermouth in your if you have do you have a martini or anything like that? Yeah, Volcamartini. And you like vermouth in it? Yes. And an olive. Really you have the olive? Do you eat the olive or do you just leave it as decorate? You eat the olive. At the end or beginning? At the beginning. That's the detail. What do you like most about yourself? I like that I want to have joy. You know, I like trying to live a good life. Emma Barnett, thank you so much. You are great company. You're the best. I really appreciate it. knew I want want that die