Disparities in Sentencing and Justice

You know c Wriers What is that H learning is on is I Vanne Lyon Junior. And it's me, Rachel Ln Lindsey. We're back We're back. Now listen, I got to say something to everyone I have to Oh you want Oh yeah, we had an interview couple a couple of we came back working hard. Well one of the interviews was for Thursday. Sure, but we just we came back working Hostell on Thursday. Yeah. Okay. We also have Yod Tualdi who is going to be joining us as we break down the Redd in and the Carmelo Anthony case. We're actually gonna to start the show with that. Um Before we get to that Well'll let you guys know something Last week on higher learearning, we had two prerecorded interviews. So we were basically off. Ridginuals and Turks and kos with Drake And we were we were we were off So for the people that have been coming into my comments on Instagram saying, Hey Van, we hate it when you guys do just these interviews and don't give us anything else I'm just wondering if you paid attention to what we said at the top of the deal. I expect more from your thought words. We gave you two interviews a new content because the podcast was dark. Now we're back. Also You're welcome We didn't just go dark. We worked overtime the week before to make sure that we didn't leave y'all empty handed and gave you two interviews. Yeah, I don't know if they should have to thank us No. The person who complained. Oh to the o. T the person who complained. Yeah. We gave you something, and not just something. Yeah representative and a senator Right. I don't see much popping from Chris Murphy interview Chris Murphy needs to Maybe up his the highlights Chris. How was Turk? What did you enjoy? Did you see Jke I didn't, but apparently he was right there. at where we were staying. guess he likes the restaurant and the bar. But no, I wasn't on the lookout for him. I wasn't trying to see him. I was there with my family celebrating P pretty Hir's seventieth, her birthday was in January. She wanted to get all the family together, mmedia family. It was lovely. It was their first my parents' first time there and it's a feat to be able to get my dad to take off vacation. And he took off He didn't work at all, no phone calls, truly like enjoyed himself. and it was really fun to see. I don't know if I've ever seen my dad since we were maybe younger fully enjoy himself on vacation. And I really hope you takes What did you do He just relaxed. Did he My dad does not relax. Did he dance and like have a couple of drinks? Was he My dad doesn't drink.'t He doesn't at all? No, he doesn't drink. Okay He doesnn't drink. Well He doesn't like to lose control. No, none of that. He doesn't onlyose No, he doesn't like to lose control, but took his shoes off, got in the sand Are you kidding? These are shoes These are big deals. No no, when my dad walked to the pool, he had a black t shirt on sllacks. Socks. and black like dress shoes. Yes In Turks it's like, this is what I'm telling you. That was day one And we were like, come on, man, like relax, like just enjoy where you are. So when I say he took his shoes off, he putush shorts, that is a big deal. He put his feet in the sand At one point he said, takeake a picture of me. I've never heard my dad speak those words. All in the same sentence. Wow This is big for him. Okay. So he really enjoyed himself. That was nice. and I feel like he did it for my mom and she really had a lovely time and U Yeah, it was just too quick, too quick. Turks is a great place to. Have you been? Yeah.. We went in twenty twenty one. Turks is a great place to go. Turks is phenomenal. People are very friendly and I feel like The people who come who tour Turks come often Oh like it just seems like they like they know this person like, oh, yeah, so and so's back and And Yeah, people were adopting I was like meeting these dogs there and they're like, yeah, we adopt dogs. L it's a whole thing here and just yeah, it's Turks dogs Bring them back to the state and just yeah, it was a lovely time. I hadn't been in like nine years It was interesting that like, You told me that you were going to Turks and then you went there on the same It's the same week the same time that Drake was there. Well, Kylie Jenner was there too. you ain't bringing that up. Well, I didn't know that she was there because I thought that she I thought that I saw Kylie Jenner in New York with Timothy Chalamay the. Yes, I thought that. I think they at the beginning into her trip beginning of mind So she was there with Timmy or No Timy couldn't be there because Timmy was following the finals. So she was on vacation then she came back. I have to be honest about two things. Okaykay. numberber one, Uh Turks is greatay Oh, number one, I have to be honest, I have to say this. Somebody that was on the Turks. trip with us when we all went to Turks. Wazy. decisions to. Oh yeah. Congratulations to Whzy Yeah on her recent engagement Yeah, really Lover Girl finds her fella is always a great story. So congratulations. Also because You really, if you follow her and even when she was on this podcast and she talkks about it She has been very intentional about creating the relationship she wants for herself. Right. And not following anything traditional, not doing what anybody said. And she found that person and together, that partner, I should say, not a person, a partner who fulfills that and they have created something beautiful together. And I think that is so ool incredibly follow her journey Really happen. And I went to Trap House when I was in New York first time, not the last. I had a blast. I loved it. I really need that to come to L.A Um And so then That was Welles we were talking about there. You said you your two things. I'm assuming you were gonna to get to something magic Um, no, it wasn't about o. It wasn't about drinks. no, no, no, no no. I have now decided that I actually love The Kylie Jenner Timothy Challamay couple. Why It know you didn't love it. It's not that I didn't love it. A lot of people like point to the Kardashians and the Jinners as like destructive to like dudes or whatever like that. I don't know. it's like people say that there's a curse or whatever. Itounds a little different. But in this situation, I saw something that I really appreciated from of Kylie Jennner So the most authentic thing about Timothy Chalamet to me is his love for the Kicks. A lot of people think that it's performative. I do not think that it is performative at all The Saints won the Super Bowl twenty ten. I was going nuts. I went Fr like Los Angeles to New Orleans by train. Oh wow. by train to be in New Orleans for the game when it happened. I couldn't afford was pre TamsZ. I couldn't afford anything, but I went home to New Orleans. to be amongst the people During the game and we won and it was essentially Mardi Gras out there, I get it understand it. But I saw a video of Timothy Chalamagne walking through Masson Square Garden after uh, after It was after the thirty point game C after the Yeah, after game four And He sees some MSG employees they had matching Chromhart's Nick outfits on He sees some employees. he breaks away from her And he goes and starts going crazy with the employees, taking the shirt off, going nuts the whole deal. and she has a big smile on her face and she's taping him And it was like go ahead. she didn't roll her eyes. likeike here he goes again. He wasn't being too much for her. He wasn't being too She's like, o, he's on one. There was none of that stomp your feet type stuff that sometimes happens to one partner or the other partner when somebody's really into something Guys do it to ladies too, the same thing, but she seems like completely energetically happy for the fact that he was acting like a fucking complete idiot. And that's what happens when your team wins And I just like I thought that that was cute. I love that you saw that. so cute together. So you know, I'm a supporter of it. pllus, you know Tyimothy. He got some half black babies to raise over there. I want to see how he doesn't. You always is now. This summer, fanool is the best place to bet on goals. Including equalizers. Uh huh Vollies? Yep, headters. Every goal is worth more on fandool. So let there be goals. New customers get up to one thousand dollars and bet reset tokens when you bet five dollars five daily. Tt one plus in present in select states often required. Refund issued does non withdrawal bonus bets that expire seven days after receivt. M minimum five dollars wage are required for five consecutive days. Max refund two hundred dollars per day. restestrictions apply including token expiration, seaful turns at fanouool dot com slash sportsbook gambling problem, call one eight hundred gambler or one eight hundred my reset For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters Tromphia offers self injection or intravenous infusion from the start Trymphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self inject trmphia, proper training is required Tremphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease, and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. sererious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection flu like symptoms or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tremphia today. Call one eight hundred five two six seven seven three six to learn more. or visit Trempharadio d. com This episode is brought to you by Fan Dual Predicts. You can predict the summer soccer showcase action all the way to the final match with Fan Dual Predicts. All you have to do is sign up to get your twenty five dollars bonus. From the opening game to the final whistle, stay locked in with every pass, every goal, and every moment that moves us closer to crowning a champion. Sign up now for your twenty five dollars bonus on Fan Duual Predicts Go to fandle dot com slash predicts to sign up. That's fandle dot com slash predicts to get your twenty five dollars bonus. Offered by Fandol Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant. eighteen plus restrictions supply. See terms at fandle dot com slash predicts slash bonus dash offer dash terms Let's get into the Nick series right now because the Nick series has made a lot of people and really injured others Donny started. All right, Yeahah, the Kicks have won their first NBA championship in fifty three years The city is going to celebrate on Thursday with a parade. They won in game five Jayalen Bson. or forty five points was the NBA finals inVP Celebrations popped up throughout the city. Everyone went crazy. You all saw it Whatd you guys think about the Nixus historic series season I'm to speak from the playoffs. Okay. I can't speak to the whole season. But I do know the history because, you know Jayen left the Mavericks to come to New York So I remember the way people were talking about Jaylen coming. I remember them building the team as far as bringing in and Villanova players And like all of that. Like I remember the storyline, which is why I love, I love, this is to me I'm just to speak in general. What makes sports so beautiful and why it's something that, you know, you talk about an AI, you talk about all these other industries, It's moments like this where you're like, you cannot replace this with anything, but the people who play the sport and the love the community has for these teams because I'm not a Nicks fan. I'm not a Spurs fan. But man did I find myself so invested in this final series. And I thought every game had you on the edge of your seat, whether it was the storylines coming in before, whether it was the back and forth between the game, the the losing the leads, like the reaction from the player like I just loved it all so much It was beautiful. That's the word I'm going to keep using to describe it It was fun, it was entertaining, but it was rich in watching it and I got to the point where it was like, well, who do you want to win? I don't I actually did say the Ks because I was just thinking of the bigger story. But like this excited like makes me so excited. likeike I might even start watching from the very beginning. I usually don't watch. basketball and so football seasonons over with. I'm like, I I watched in the beginning I feel like reinvigorated when it comes to the league and the passion. You know, we're always so critical about prorofessional athletes versus collegiate athletes and there's A lot of talk about, you know, you're playing for being affiliated with big names and big franchises and chasing the money and there's no loyalty. That to me was taken away with watching what the Kicks did from building up this team Um to, you know, when Bntleon got there to where they are now. that I love to watch and it just it just I guess tells the story of whyild like sports so much, and I will just lastly say this It's a lesson for the cowboys because I do feel that one of the reasons that the Kicks have become the team that they are is because the owner back and let The people who know what they're doing run the team cowboys could learn a lesson from this. Maybe we too could be celebrating and dancing in the streets. We don' only need fifty three years, but maybe thirty two Yeah it's not going to happen the upcoming year. So maybe thirty two or thirty three years. Yeah. That's tough. That was a tough comparison right there. Well, it's true in the sense that legacy It's name another team that's closed close to like the love that people have so deeply for their team like the Kicks. Well in basketball Well I would jump to football. Oh okay. I understand what you're saying. Look, To me, I hear the cowboys in my mind just can. It compareison makes sense D was very involved And don't youull back from a structural standpoint in terms of overbearing owners and stuff like that, now you see The guys over there, Leon Rose and the gentlemen over there and that are able to kind of get the Nicks right and right And look what happenedob Um, This is why I say they're big winers from the NBA finals Okay, Th these are the big winners to me The B winers is obviously Nick's culture Nick's culture has been very fun. The whole bing bong situation Nick's culture, particularly since Jalen Brunson has made the city believe and his stardom has been a lot of fun. And their culture has been rewarded, watching them celebrate. Obviously there have been some things that have been fked up that's happened over there, watching them celebrate, watching them be a part of this team that is unexpected terms of them winning. numberum one, Nix culture one. Number two, Timothy Chalamet is a big winner here. I said it before. Timothy Chalamay looks like a I guess normal guy, which is What he's always been, which has kind of been his flaw him saying The same reason why I liked Timothy Challamay watching him celebrate the Kicks is the same reason why see him say that By is dead aggravated you. It's the same thing. It's somebody who is so real at times that they can't help themselves ' like just so such a regular dude that could act. I know Timothy is everybody's performative, all that stuff, but he's just he speaks his mind and he does stuff and it kind of seems at times like it's corny or it's too much or whatever, but he's probablyro being authentic in this realm, the authenticity was actually very sweet. It was another just another fucking crazy fan. Yeah sitting there Saying that Ballet is dead when you're talking about the arts is something that you would expect him to know a little bit more about like now whereere you at But he knows where he's at when he's a Nicks fan and he seems like he's a really authentic part of the culture Another huge win winner is Jalen Brunson. Jayalen Brunson answered the prayers of a lot of basketball fans A lot of basketball fans wanted somebody come out of nowhere and remind them of a traditional lead dog on a basketball team someomebody who wears all the pressure someomebody who talks the right way. who is an unexpected leader Motivator almost cynical killer of the team on the other side of the line. Jayalen Brunson was shooting like shit for the first two games of these series of this series neverever stopped shooting Even the OG tip The OG tip where OG Annaobbe tips the ball in, Jaen Brunson takes a sort of early in the clock deep three over Vincent when Byama Jayen Brunson said, fuck it We we win or lose with this sh And if we lose, I'll go in the tunnel and I'll answer the question Yeah But I think I can make my team win this game. I think I can win this game and I'm to take the shot. littleittle did he know he andfce when be out on them And if they missed the shot, it was probably going to be Kat or OGie that got the re. Maybe he did know that. Maybe he did know but he tastakes that fucking shot. Nothing doesnn't get rattled and in the last two games, he takes them home in the final game, he scores forty five of their teams ninety four points just a complete dog, somebody that you can like actually build around and win a championship. loveove that Another big winner in this entire series I have to say The long suffering celebrity Nick fans your Sike Ls, your Benstillers, all of those guys They've been around for a long time You know, they had the root for a lot of shit. I love them 's a big de. You'll being one. I never say it about the cowbys no matter what happens. Cowboys can go undefeated and I would say I'd say that the L league was cheating. I'll love them. I fking it All now they're big losers in the series There's one big loser that's a bigger loser. Don't be a hater Don't you dare put Wimby on the list? Wimby's on the list. You're such a hater. Why Why? The biggest losers is of course Darne Fox, who if you guys don't know who Deerene Fox is point guard for San Antonio Spurs that is about to enter into a contract that's going to pay him north of fifty million dollars a year. He was simply unplayable. at the end of this series he shot like shit. he could be a little injured. He's got he's playing on a bump ankle, some might say But then in the waning moments of one of the deciding games here He goes up for a layup when he probably should have dribled the clock out U Yeah OG blocks it, they get the ball back and boombble Yeah. All right So Daran Fox showed that not only would he make Bonehead plays in the Kutz situation, but that also Just his play itself could not be counted on. He couldn't shoot efficient. he couldn't get the team organized. All of the stuff that you would expect your veteran guard to do supped to be a leader O a very young team On a very young team, Daron Foss couldn't do it And they broke him off with over two hundred million dollars last August. They're about to go into that contract right now it's just a bad situation for him But I still think They't even know Castle play like shit at the end even though Fox play like shit at the end, even though they didn't get anything from their six M of the year, Keldin Johnson Uh Cornet, they're backu up sinner who's been a great backup sinner. the entire season, his minutes were putry. There are a lot of people and they're young who didn't come to the table for the sppurs, right? Dylan Harper, I could argue was a big winner because he did play really well Still though In this moment, Viictor Wimbinyama is A huge loser here He's a gigantic loser. I'm just going to talk about basketball when it comes to Victor women Yam. because There's nothing that I there's no specific hate that I have for Wimby No specific hate that I have for Wibby. But Wimby Lost games for his team He could not dominate games. He couldnot figure out a way to be a dynamic offensive force. He shot forty two percent for this entire series. He's seven for fucking five, right I don't know if it's going be a baby hook, a little turnaround or something. You need a go to basketball move in order to shoot a high percentage in order to be a player that an offense can get oriented around ' not going to be whenever Windby is sitting open from the three or whenever he can roll to the rim to be a lob threat. or whenever he's feeling saucy on that little mid range. He's going to need more than that. He's going to need something he can go back to and back to and back to and back to thenen in the first two games, he really had problems keeping up with Carl Anthony Towns Additionally. Yeah, they don't like each other. He was getting gassed at the end of these games which He is a big guy U they only played him about thirty minutes throughout the entire regular season. towards the end of the season, you need your players to be able to play full games. You need them to be up in the forties in their minutes and Victor Wimbinyama couldn't do it. even on the defensive end where he is like nothing else that we've ever seen before towards the end the games. Wimy just could not be a force If in fact, this guy is, what they've said that he is which is a LeBron James, Magic Johnson Kobe Bryant type once in a generational basasketball talent that he's got a lot to figure out because the Kicks exposeed Victor Wimbinama. And that's not me being a hater That is reality The Kyicks exposed him They They did. He is all He was exposed by the New York. This is all I'm going to say about this You just talked about multiple players on the Spurs team. that did not show up. in the finals. They didn't play like that in the other playoff games. They didn't play like that in the regular season A lot of people contributed to them being, you know tired and young They young They are you They're young. So like being on that stage coming from a Nicks who almost made a team that almost made it last season and now it's like there they are locked in. but they've never been to the finals up. Right. I said, but they but they came close last season. So they're locked in Right? Wimby was doing everything is what it felt like watching in this final series. What do you mean doing everything? People were not showing up on the team. Wimby was off I felt like watching it offense defeense little pray and mantis out there just dunking it like this. I I dribbling the ball off the court taking taking shots like I That the intensity, the like the way he was talking to his teammates, I felt like he was doing it all So when you talk about, sorry One of us is a hater and one of us isn't. When I don't believe he was exposed, I feel like he was alone That's what it felt like watching the final series. It did. So you feel you don't feel like Dylan Harper play well That's one other player. Okay. So five people on the court at this time. So we're wanting. So what I'm saying is this What you have to have What What you have to have though in this situation to me What you have to have is a star That's not just because I could go back to the Western conference finals. And Wy did not play particularly well in the Western conference finals Wheny seems like a guy that when sheit is going for him, then it's awesome He has weird stretches of disappearance in these games, especially like in games where things are a little bit more physical. He's very young. He's twenty two years old. There's this is not the best version of Viicttor Webinyama that we are going to get That is the case That is for sure However There is something that happens and Nick Wright talked about this and Nick Wright might be the last motherfucker that keeps it real G's a little weird about LeBron But Nick White might be the last motherfucker that keeps. Let's not forget you said about. What did he say about Brunton? He was one of the most critical Most people were critical about Brunson. Okay way he doesn't always get a right. I'm not saying he always gets it right. Most people were critical about Brunson. Who knew how Brunson was going to be able to do what it was? Everybody had a Brunson takeake. when the Nicks gave Brunson money less money that Brunson took in order to build a team. Exactly. When the Nicks gave Brunson money, everybody had a Brunson takeake. Eone had a Brunson takeake, okay But Nick Wright said something about Victor Wbinyama that I think it's very true. He said, it can't be both ways. He can't be transcend it dominating best player in the league when he plays well and I' young when he plays bad If he's not there yet, then that's fine. We've seen guys who aren't there yet. We also have seen guys in their third year in the league dominate the finals and leadam teams to championships Everybody out there that says, hey, it took everybody so long to get here. That's not true. I can name a lot of people that their third year in the league with a lyinchpin on championship teams. He did take his team to the championship though. I I understand that. I've giving him credit for that. But what I'm also saying is that with this version of Victor Wiminyama is not going to be a version of Vict Wimin Yama that's going to go win for NBA titles. And I get that this won't be the final version This version couldn't get it done And we can talk He was exposed. He was definitely exposed. They exposed the fact that you can Windby likes to play defense everywhere ose the fact that you could run him around, get him tired. They expose the fact that he doesn't have a full gas tank to get to the end of playing forty two minutes playling forty three minutes. they expose the fact that if you tire Wim be out In the fourth quarter, he was abysmal Bmal in all of these games. and the Kicks were like, okay We're going to deal with a beast for two and a half quarters Somebody we're not going to ever be able to shoot that bitch. It's so demoralizing and watching little niggers try to sho over But they were like in the fourth quarter He's going to fade. We're going to get those shots We're going to get drives to the rim Our guys are going to be there Brunson is going to be there. OG andobi is going to be there. Our guys are going to be there. Man, Jose Alvarado is going to be there. Our guys are going to be there. And weiby won't So there are things about him that were certainly exposed. It's not the end. it's only the beginning. He's having a phenomenal beginning to his career, but I beg everyone Dig Rot, callall it as you see it. He needs to go down there and develop a hook or some kind of like I don't know short turnaround G have your seven foot five, seven foot six. We love the Kvin Durant. better, but you go have to be able to get something in the post from this year. He already came back better this year. He'll come back better, even even better next year. There you go. It has to happen and he is not the first player that had to get better after we saw them on a big stage. Kobe Miss Fignnero that wasn't in the finals. I think that was in the Western conference fininals or semifinals against against Utah Kbe missed airball in a row and then we saw the mama came back and it was I You know, mama shit But you know, forty two percent That's not going to get it on that type of usage is not that's not going to happen It was a fun final ser. It really was most fun five game series I think I've ever seen before. Yeah, it really was. And you know, dispse You know else was exposed The Spurs's coaching was exposed as well. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Trmphia offers self injection or intravenous infusion from the start Trmphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self inject trmphia, proper training is required. Trmphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tmvia today. Call one eight hundred five two six seven seven three six to learn more orr visit Tmfiaradio. com. All newews Sundays at nine, exclusively on AMC and AMC pllus. I am I st. I'm a rock star now hand Rice's Imortal Universe comes what Vulture calls the most momentous event in fictional rock history. Thousand of. I want millions Smider. This is the Vampireless Dot. All new Sundays at nine exclusively on AMC and AMC pllus, stream now. A Little bit. All right, let's take a break All right, we said that we were gonna start with Yodi Tuali and and Carmel Anthon U but it's like, we went for like an hour with her prettyty much. So we'll get into to that in a second But there' been a couple of happenings. Like last night was the UFC fight the UFC fight at the White House Uh, Donny. Yeah, Trump, uh through a UFC fight on the lawn of the White House to celebrate his eightieth birthday It was filled with thousands of guests, including many members of the military. There were fights after the heavyweight fight Josh Hokit repeated this Conspiracy theory And lastly Michelle Obama is a man. Am I right, America? Um So I don't watch the u I don't watch the UFC I don't neither. So I don't really know much about this guy But Uh we know a couple of things now. We haven't seen condemnation from the White House about this. We're not going to see that Um, But also We've seen the UFC itself cozy up to kind of like these the UFC is a fucking far right white supremacist organization Mhm It is. The UFC fighters that you talk to seem to have A lot of these notions The UFC intelligentia. is run by Danel White who is a close personal friend of President Trump and does his best to lauer Trump's reputation. this entire event is sports Washing having this event at the White House on Trump's birthday. is sports washing So The UFC is a cess pool. me? of some of the worst, most divisive types of American thought and it would not did not shock and surprise me to see something that's disgusting. As this said live on the Octagon as Joe Rogan smiles and introduces the fighter or says goodbye to the fighter. I wonder if Rogan would have been smiling as hard and I said as much on Instagram If that guy would have said Melania Trump is a prostitute or in the abstent files or whatever. any other things that that are said about her. I wonder If he would have said that right there at the White House in front of everyone if Rogan would have smiled it off and just like said the guy's name and you know, sent them on his way This is the type of thought There's the type of action U and this is the type of climate culture that to me exists inside the UFC Yeah, it's tacky It's trash And they only feel cool because they're surrounded by people who literally are like them Um And like I saw people doing them doing interviews of people who were attending. I did not know it was four thousand people, but people who attended this event. And they were kind of like, oh, you know, like this is a sports that brings us together. This isn't politics. it's like it's happening right in front of the White House on the lawn. You're literally here to celebrate President Trump and his birthday. We saw him do it last year. Again, it was boring. It was tacky. even he was falling asleep when he did it with this parade Now you've got this joke of a show with the UFC, which I repeat is trash And as we just watch this Josh guy, he is too. And then you have them doing like motorcycle flips and some circus shit that some other stuff that Dana White owns, is just such a joke. And then this is supposed to be how we're celebrating two hundred and fifty years of this country with This is supposed to be representative in two hundred and fifty years. This is where we are. This is what's front facing the White House. And in the backdrop, you have this economy that's suffering inflation up, gas prices, people don't have health care, peopleople don't have clean drinking water, AI Units or villages are being built next to people and destroying their personal health and their environment. L it's just there's just so many things. That's at the front. This is what's in the back. That's what they care about. They don't care about how the rest of the country is suffering and continues to suffer when you're spending millions and millions of dollars for some tacky shit like this This Josh guy has a history of doing this. So the fact that he was one of the fighters one and two is known for his post controversial. Um I'm not going to say post controversial. Yes, they are, but racist and homophobic rhetoric after this isn't the first time he's called Michelle Obama man. He said it before. He's also said the N word after one of his fights. This is what he does. And for all you people who also want to say stuff about Joe Rogan and he's not this and he's not this, what he did do is hold the microphone when he said it, he smiled and laughed and then shook his hand And so did the rest of the audience that was there. I didn't hear booze. I heard laughing and cheering. But we shouldn't expect anything less. And of course, we're not going toar anything from the administration because they think that the Obamas are monkeys. U Right. And so part of that to me was done Just hoked did that to impress the president. becausecause that's the type of thing that you would do, and you would say to impress President Trump U if you wanted to Press President Trp Youal on his good side, if want to say something, then you act like President Trump and the way that Pident Trump A now and has always acted. is to use racially coded other terrible nicknes for people. insults for people is what he's done. It's like what he's introduced into the Americans discussion. And so if you want to get on Trump's good side, you don't act with dignity and respect Um after a win You act like a child And this is Josh Hokett acting like a child more than anything, it is him God Cutting down and insulting, vily insulting one of the most elegant accomplished bllack women of all time It matters that Michelle Obama is elegant and accomplished. It matters to her. It matters to like what she's done for her life To me, the thing that matters the most is that Michelle Obama is a black woman And she should not have to at the White House Font of everybody watching on Paramount pllus be insulted by this caveman She shouldn' And We For the sake of going along and getting along, should not have to act like that's okay At this point, I don't know if we should be watching the UFC. I don't watch the UFC but I don't know if we should be watching it. I talked to a couple of the guys that I know that are in the UFC and they talked and told me they sent me text messages from people that they had spoke to that actually believe That Michelle Obama is a man. And these are guys that are in the UFC and speak up. They don't get the opportunities on these types of platforms like these other guys do That's not the only thing that I saw regarding the UFC event I saw Terrennce Crawford One of my favorite fighters posing with Donald Trump talking about that he never knew The president of the United States knew about a kid that comes from And he still doesn't Well, I mean I'm sure someomebody said he probably thinks you Floyd may weather. Like he probably does. He might. But you know This h This generation, I saw Joel Anderson from Ringer Tailgate talk about this generation of black athletes and you know, how they relate and respond to President Donald Trump and some of this stuff on the right. Are you particularly disappointed in this crop and this generation of bllack athletes overall as a whole As a whole, I can't say' That' all Really I mean, in what way? L isn in they're not speaking up? Well in the way that it seems that it seems like there's at least A significant portion of them that seem to be prettyty on board with what Dald Trump is doing I'm not aware of a significant portion. Now if you wanted to say there was a significant portion who don't say anything, I could talk about that I feel like that there are people who just sit silent and just go with the status quo and don't really do anything because they don't want to be disruptterors, which is contrary to the generation of black athletes before. But as far as An overwhelming number of black athletes that support Trump. I am not aware of that. I'm holding space to be wrong. I'm just saying, I'm just not aware of that. But I am disappointed. I saw Michael Irving there. Obviously deep love for the Cowboys. I see him running around in there. I saw like I was kind of surprised to see him there. I didn't know what his stance was. He's a different generation, but still just a black athletees to your point. Let me be more precise. Let me not say a significant portion Let me say that there is a Vocal portion of black athletes in the NFL more than any other place Um Bketball seems to be a little bit different. at least from what we know in the NFL more than other places that are fuckking with what Trump has going on and don't Combat sports and football seem to be kind of an incubator for this type of right wing do. And I'd say this, if you are an athlete and you do not agree with some of this stuff, but you're not speaking up, you probably should Because there is a creeping sense of dread that There's a whole generation of black mle successful athletes that is captured by the right And if that is not true, which is what Rachel is saying, and she's right, I can't point to any data on this then it would be great if there were people all over the place that called this out. If there were people all over the place that went This right here said about this black lady is white It would be nice to hear from you As far as the Terrenance Crawfer situation, this goes back to something that I deeply believe I believe that a lot of our brothers and sisters don't actually want to be free they want to be white and the difference between being free and being white is freedom is something that you share And whiteness is oriented around domination. Now have you asked people Do you want to be free? The question is, what does freedom mean to you? A lot of times when whiteness or when you talk about freedom on the right, they're talking about freedom from not having to go into the bathroom same bathroom that trans people use. and I have to go in the same bathroom that black people use. The freedom to be away from what they believe are the dregs and the undesirables of their society They want to have freedom to live exactly the life that they want to live without anybody else's perspective being considered. That's freedom to them Now if you've learned that version of freedom and what you want You a black man, a black woman is the ability to dominate somebody. To be a shot caller to call shots and do all of that stuff, you don't want to be free Don't be white Freedom is something that is shared Freedom is something that's bulloyied by the fact that I am not free unless you are free. You are not free unless I am free I do things in promotion of your freedom, you do things, in promotion of my freedom, and we are all free together That is freedom That is freedom from, you know wage slavery, that is freedom from health carere slavery, that is freedom from all different types of binding and bond. and bondage that Americans are under right now. That's real That's the freedom that I'm talking about I don't want to be free to dominate anyone. I don't want to try to be like Donald Trump. which is I think what a lot of people are into Like I want to go toilet too. Like I want to be able to say and do whatever I want without anyone saying anything back to me that matters. That's what I want Well, you don't want what I want You want something different You want the version of freedom Western wites supremacy has corrupted you into believing is the way to live your life with as much abundance as possible. And so when Part of this is an adherence to capitalism. Part of this started way before this. Part of this started when people like Michael Jordan say Republicans blast sneakers too. Look fuck who Michael Jordan? fucking votes for. But I will tell you that type of attitude That type of attitude lends itself to an intellectual dysfunction. that gets cemented generations over because people start to think that the way to do that is the Michael Jordan way And not the Aliwi and not the crereamal Djabaray the way to do that is the Michael Jordan way. Lm from everybody and all of that stuff like that. No, that's not the way to do it. If you have any sense of racial self esteem or racial consciousness is not But you can't care about that if you're trying to seek quite acceptance. The closer you get, The more the stronger your desire is to seek wide acceptance You have to neglect your own community to do it. It's the only way to fully achieve it You have to So But there is a there is a time now win And there's other thing that bothers me. We're not going gonna spend too much time on this. The thing that bothers me about it more than anything, is if that's your that's your lane and beat that I don't want to hear this the way they treat a black man in this industry Y contracts don't go right. Yeah. I don't want to hear this the way they treat a black man in this when your when your liquor brand. Don't get picked up I don't want to hear that this is the way they treat a black man because you don't give a fuck about any of that stuff on the front end. You only care about it when it can be leveraged for your personal gain. We really have to do a lot of re education. on what solidarity actual movement looks like You know If you are that, that's cool. Maybe Tererennce Crawford is a fucking Republican. That's his business is a maga Be clear I disagree Okay. I think that I think that right now The Republicans, you name me aepub There are certain Republicans calledall out Donald Trump, but Donal Trump made up a slurf for him, calledall him rhinos. So Donald Trump has said that the only way to be a Republican is to be MAGA He has said that And it seems like there doesn't seem there's not a lot of pushback against that idea. Oh, I mean, I think there are people who still consider themselves Republicans who are anti Trump. I think that certainly that's true, But not when you take a picture with them and then give a whole story in your captionight. That's not Tarn. the Republican partarty seems to be rooted in in a in eternal The partarty itself for sure. The partarty itself, an eternal anti blackness that has existed in a long time and like, you know, at least since the great swwitching and whatever that was happening. But Like, you know This particular president is different. I'm not going to act like this is a new phenomenon. to kick Samy Award Jr's ass for going to take that picture with Richard Nixon. This has always been a thing But I mean I don't know, man. justust this that And they're watching this and he wasn't the only one. U is's just nuts. I feelelt like A lot of our most A lot of our most famous and accomplished brothers A. over backwards to protect and and they just don't D don't give a fuck. What's supposed to do with today You don't need to give a fuck either. No, I gotta give a. No, no, no, no. about them specifically. Oh No, no, no Yeah, I got to got care, man. about them specifically know what I'm saying Um I take that We got to Everything that gets said next is said with love David O Yellowo., Just play the cliff This would be a CT You you play the clip, please If you take the Nigerian accent like this and you slow it down You put a lot of slavery in there and then you start to put a little bit of subservience in it. This is what starts to happen. Yeah to the Nigerian accent. M Y it goes becausecause lit literally If you're down hand, you start to speed it up. And then you start to take all the thing out of it. Then before you know it, you're talking like this Now we are free now we are free. We are released. Hey. transition. You see that? Damn. Yeah. Yeah You usually No, no, no, no. I do a souther exit? No, The way he just did that whole thing go ahead, clean you know when no, no, no, I gott stay in my lane on that, okay Okay Now Id let you guys know There is nothing. that I like more Dan This podcast relationship with David Ool. David Yellow Ole is a movie called New Born early this year Nate Parker, fantastic movie Dpe mov And him and N Parker have massive studios together. I could wax poetic about like, but the reality is it would just be me trying to soften the blow can't do it like that I'll tell I'd just love to know what he was thinking. We can't do it like that Do you think that he would have said that here because he's talking to two Africans Don't make it something that it's not. I'm asking a legitimate question.. The way you say I just wonder because I paused because I was going to say Nigerian and I wasn't sure if both are, so that's why I said that. Yeah, I'm pretty sure everybody was Nigerian. Okay And so it was Oh, I' I'm in a different space. I have a and this is not make excusing it, but it did make me wonder, I wonder if you would have said that to us if that conversation had come up because we have talked to him about British actors taking roles of American actors And we've done all that conversation and he does talk about that as well But I think that conversation, again, that he has with On this on the podcast one fifty four one hundred fifty four Africa podcast. That conversation he has with them combined with this accent and saying He puts a little subservience to it. is Well how we have? The Wars. The Diaspora Wars? Yeah, it's why we have the Diaspora Wars because First off when he talks about the British bllack actors, American actors,'s like, listen, I'm not saying it's not legitimate ing But then he goes on to say, but we're missing the point of why there are such few roles But when you do that, it's dismissive to, okay, so the few roles there are, why are you getting them? That's the question that's being asked. It's not for you to say, okay, that's cool, but look at the bigger picture. Sure, the bigger picture there, there should be more opportunities for black people to have roles in Hollywood, But there aren't. So why aren't Back Americans playing the roles of legendary, of historical black Americans. why does it seem to always go one way? That's the question that needs to be answered. So when you're dismissive of that conversation within this podcast and then you add to it, oh The way I do this accent, it's coming from Nigeria, but then I'm adding a little subservience to it and that's how I get there. Totally offensive to Black Americans. and it implies something about the language or the dialect or the accent of how Black Americans speak in this country. It's D I'm just David. Tough. tough. It's tough. So I'll say something to the Black Americans in that okay. so tough Black Brits. Half played Just in the last X amount of years, Black Brits have played just so we because I don't want people to we'd being petty That's the last thing I want people to think we' be that we've been petty Black Brits in the last I don't know ten, fifteen years have played Martin Luther King Junr. Hm and bothoth Martin and Coreta Okay Martin Luther King Jr. and Careinna Sotting Um Harryet Tubman U Solomon Northu, obviously in twelve years of slave Uh and Fred Hampton Fredad So Bass Reeves. Bass Reeves Um, that's another one Malcolm X. Kings Ling I idea played Malcol X in one night, Miami So like This is There's something that's happening here that I think You know, when Samuel. Jackson was talking about this, he was talking about Daniel Culia playing a Black American guy and get out. That's going to happen guys. Like there's if we're talking about roles for black people They less ros for black Bits. Most of the time you see Daniel Culuja on screen Most of the time you see Damon Is on screen Most of the time you see them on screen. they're going to playing Back American They will be. You'll see them on screen playing Black Americans a lot Like you're gonna to see that, okay? Because this the industry they're in is in Hollywood and Hollywood is Normally writing stories about Black Americans when you're talking That is what it is. The influx of them is could be for a lot of reasons We don't ever talk about well we talk about that, you know, British guys or British ladies are better actors than us because take the stage moreore series, right? Well There's also a culture that is centered around that There's a culture of fear acting that exists in those places. that's not quite as robust here You have to go on the stage there I know a lot of people that are doing stuff on the stage right now. Yeah. But you have to go over on the stage there. Maybe we should talk about if we if we think that there's some kind of quality difference and I'm not saying that there is about how we have a robust theater u a stage acting. culture over here for young bllack actors We should do more that. Maybe we startuck all kinds of conversations you going to have Uh, But one conversation that you're going to have here is about the fact that do we bothoth know ourselves enough to play these particular parts. And then there's also something else Us playing these parts is legitimately Um giving reverence to our ancestors Our ancestors are ancestors. are ancestors And there is a whole diaspora And so many people that are involved in what has happened here for Black people have been from other places, man. There's been so many people from the West Indies. I could name them all. There's been so many people from other places that have been involved in that. It's very true Absolutely true That's true that there's lines all over the place in this, but Well, we're talking about us, we're talking about our ancestors and things that happen here. and we also want to be energetically and spiritually a part of the upliftment of our ancestors And we want to make sure everybody can tell the stories of their ancestors as well. I mean, this is understood. They would not want an American person playing James Bond That ass a fictional character that story is steeped in Bit shit. So they don't want Timothy Shalloway to be James Bonone They want to find the next young British actor because they want that story to be culturally true. Now we have shared aspects of our culture, but they're not all shared And that diversity Also beautiful. It's not just the diversity between white, black, Asian, or whatever is diversity. intntra i diasporic diversity is also beautiful. That's beautiful as well. We're not all of the same. whichich means there are some things for you that are not for me. We can share them But the ownership is different. That's okay. As far as the Nigerian accent into slavery thing I'm just going to give one piece of advice And it should be easy One piece of advice Do not ever If you are African Or H. outside of being a Black American Say or do anything even allows people to perceive that callalling us slaves or that you are somehow setting a hierarchy between black people and Africans. We're not there yet to be able to explore that So if you say, hey If I just inject a little subservience into my voice It sounds like this. Now he was to be fair, he was talking about not black people. He was specifically talking about slaves gets wacky to me though where he goes, the more Nigerian we feel the more free we are, we're not to that point yet. we like we not like we not to that point, yet. When like we're not there Your point is brilliant I think he would have had that conversation here. because I think that That entire conversation plays upon a latent fear that we have that this is the way they talk W we not around Yeah. Yeah. No for say Yeah. But look I'm gonna say this and y'all hate it when I do this David O'o always one of the good guys. He is man David de Yellowo is working and being there for young black actors no matter where they came. He's one of the good guys is a weird, weird fuck up. It's the word ubvience A A little subservience. They were slaves. Yeah. Like I don't know, I just I would love for him and you know, David, you come on here, we can talk about it. Yeah. Why did you ch what were we thinking? Well, subservience is what a slave would be. I know, but to say just to like This is weird 's weird. We don't want to know the process of how you went from Nigeriaian to sl. It's weird. It's wrong. That's why people disrespect. And that's why yes. And that's why people are upset. you usinging the word hierarchy so key because you started you literally started up here, like hand motion, everything in the way you talk And by the time you got to doing a southern black American accent That what it was. wasn't just like, you were down here like this talking Now I'm to go back and watch it. And that's just not enough trust that we like as a black man from here I don't trust that the rest of the world don't look at us as the drrags of society and that's not the way that they feel The way I feel and this might be fucked up, the way I feel is there's nothing better in the world than a black American costume And there's nothing more powerful in the world than being able to take that costume off when y'all need it them And that's just how I feel Like I gott to have hip hop conversations and conversations about dress and all of this stuff by people that's not from there. And then when we go to do they shit, they tell me what the fuck I can't do. It just seems like the black American costume is very, very, very important. But just as important is the ability to take that bitch off and I'm not saying he was here right now, but he literally described going into Costo then described coming out of the costume and regaining his freedom Whoa. Yeah. U We have to get into M a story that happened last week while we were away with Jolet Twaldi. We're going to talk for about an hour guys about the verdict in the tragic on one hundred free events sixix thousand kids One mission Kids is using sports and evidence based wellness coaching to help kids build confidence, resilience, and the tools they need for life's challenges and opportunities. Up through august twenty twenty six, they're running one hundred free sessions for school and community based organizations near you Learn more at clinickids. com slash one hundred KK. That's Clinic with a K Cinic Kids is registered by one C three nonprofit This episode is brought to you by Duluth trrading Company. Whether it's the nineteenth inning, the twelfth quarter, or the fifth and a half shift, overtime isn't going anywhere, whichich is why Duluth builds hard working gear for folks who work their butts off. Their workhirts are built for function and comfort, giving a big foam middle finger to all that's fudile. And the new ultra tough NoQate utility shirt is equipped with cooling and wicking tech to keep you comfortable Give no quits. shhop at a Dulu store near you or at dulhtrading. com Unimaginable Carmel Anthony case on the other side is per Okay, while we were away U, a verdict came in in the insanely tragic case of Carmel Anthony and Austin Metcalf. You might have heard this I'm sure that if you're listening to us, you've heard it Oh There was a killing that took place. in Texas at a Texas highigh schoolch track meet The convicted murderer. Carmelo Anthony stabbed Austin M Calf with a knife There was obviously a lot of consternation and conversation trial about whether or not this was self defense. but whether or not this was murder. You guys, this is an incredibly serious case with a lot of different legal Yeses and nos, ups and downs and entanglements. We We're always going to discuss this for the people that were asking us why we talk about yesterday, excuse me last week, when we record last week We are about to get into it right now, but we brought in someone to help us understand at least The legal part of this and You guys have heard her on the podcast before. Her name is Yodit. Tel D Snaker So And she always It was Yodi Twaldi And she's joining us on higher learearning today. She was asking if I was going to butcher her name. She is here today, but in all seriousness, this is a case that is just Gut riching from so many different angles. Thank you for joining us so much. You're on vacation right now And you were at work. at work. alwaysways working. We're always working, but you werere away, you decided to join the first thing. I'll ask you The verdict has come in The sentencing has come in a verdict of murder sentencing thirty five years. So Carelo Anthony is currently nineteen. He would have to serve, I think it's seventeen years before he's eligible for parole First question is a pretty easy one. Did the jury get it right in this instance Is that easy question That's an easy question. Well Um That's a hard question. Do I think that Carmelo's actions based on the evidence that was presented by the prosecution and the defense Fits murder No But I'm not on the jury. There were no cameras in the courtroom. I can only you know read transcripts. I don't know how certain witnesses were perceived by the jury. And we are taught as lawyers Rachel, as you know, to respect a jury's decision Um But there were problems from the very start of this case, from the time that it happened last year, there was information floating around rightight up until this very moment, there's information being floated around Um But Based on what I know was presented in court, I feel as though Carmelo's actions fell under manslaughter So under manslaughter, manslaughter was not charged It was put into, I think Um, the the Jury instructions Jury instruction later on, it was not chargge. So But you feel like Carmelo Anthony was overcharged So I believe that the prosecution was charging Anthony with murder because they believed that he intentionally killed Ain Mcalf I murder requires intention, It requires premeditation, Mslaughter does not. Manslaughter is recklessly causing someone's death with the conscious disregard of a known unjustifiable risk, Do I believe that Carmelo understood the risks of carrying a knife in his bookbag, going to a school related event, going under a tent that was that belonged to a rival school Apparently there were some words being exchanged and he understood, I believe or should have understood the risk of pulling that knife out in that sort of heated intense environment. I don't believe he woke up that morning intending to kill I believe he carried the knife to scare, intimidate, and maybe even hurt. But I don't believe he intended to kill someone. And that is also based on his comments made to cops right after. He took accountability for the act. I did it, I did it in self defense, and then asked if Austin was okay. I don't think Death occurred to Carmelo at the time and he was seventeen So that is the reason why I feel H actions aligned more with manslaughter, which was what the defense argued to the jury to consider. when they went to go deliberate and then when they came back and obviously rejected the self defense claim and manslaughter They reiterated during punishment for the jury to consider a crime of passion. They could have capped his sentence at twenty instead of going for the five to ninety nine on the murder So I just I just don't believe his actions aligned with murder, especially given what we know about Carmelo Anthony unproblematic Stellar student athlete co captain of his track football teams doesn't have a record, work two jobs. He just he doesn't fit the profile of somebody who would want to kill It does seem like you do not buy the self defense argument though. Why is that All right, Well self defense, the problem with self defense is that, okay, someone makes an admission to the conduct. Carmelo said I did it But he's saying he did it because he was legally justified to do so The problem I'm having with the self defense is that you have to be reasonable and proportionate to the threat that's presented. What we know about Austin is that he pushed Carmelo wasn't armed with a weapon And that is considered ordinary force that can be met with ordinary force. So if Carmelo punched him and kept punching him, you know, knocked some teeth out, blackened an eye Ordinary force meets ordinary force. The prosecution was arguing that Austin Metcalf shoved Carmelo and was met with deadly force that wasn't proportionate to the threat that was actually posed. So you can't meet a shove with a knife That's a problem. Well Let me ask, I think a lot of people are wondering And like the more I look into this case or I read transcripts. it's When the defense was presenting their case, and I do want to get into it even before we got to trial actual trial because I feel like there were some issues that were raised there. When the defense was presenting its case, it seems like there was really nothing presented to even show that there was to show to prove self defense Everything seemed to be Really in favor of the prosecution, you really didn't get the side of Carmelo from the witnesses that the defense provided and even more so because Carmelo did not testify. So a lot of people are questioning as to why And I know you're going to have to guess here, but why the defense did not put him on the stand. You have been a criminal defense attorney in both the public and private sector. I know that they don't always put a defendant on the stand, but he was claiming self defense. So why do you believe that the the defense did not put him on the stand So you know Ive tried cases in Colin County in that very same courtthouse. And can you explain wait, can you explain Colin County Becauseuse I was going to ask you about change of venue. It's why? I was gonna to ask about change of venue, but but yes, for people who don't understand, everyone's say Dallas an area. this is not Dallas. This is where Ken Paxton came from if you know anything about Texas. so Yes Yeah So twelve percent black So you're already starting from a very small pool of black people when you're talking about jury selection, which I'm sure if y'all want to bring that up later, we can. But It is very rare or a defense lawyer to put up a client on the stand, okay If you do, you are making you're taking certain risks on. So we have to understand that Carmelo is seventeen when this crime was committed nineteen when Trump occurred He has his brain isn't fully developed Understand that a lot of times when you put a client on the stand, Nerves can look like guilt Far can look like guilt and then you're exposing your client to cross examination by the prosecution. So while you're asking your client, on direct nice easy questions. They're going to be grilled and open to the prosecution's cross examination, which could R them up, get them emotional, make them look really bad in front of the jury. so you're taking a risk So jurors have to understand, although they want to hear from a defendant, everybody wants to hear the defendant's side, especially when you'reing, you know, you did something because of self defense and you feared for your life. noobody can explain that that fear your mental state better than the defendant. However, it is their right not to take the stand and the jury cannot hold that against them. It's hard We all have biases, we all have ideas in our mind, but they are legally not supposed to hold that against the defendant So, the defense doesn't have to put up a shred of evidence and evidence does entail testimony from witnesses from the defendant himself. They don't have to put up a shred of evidence. They could merely just say, hey, jury, the prosecution failed to prove their case. They're the ones with the burden. So I understand why they didn't put Carmelo on the stand, but that also requires the defense to tell the story of self defense through witnesses. I'm not sure, I think I think maybe three to four witnesses for the defense Yeah took the stand. I'm not sure what was said. That' it's really hard when you don't have cameras. I'm from the old school of like, please bring cameras into the courtroom so everybody can see and everybody can weigh in and see what's happening and what's being said. So I don't know what was said, but they had to tell the story for Carmello. Now mind you George Zimerm claims self defense didn't take the stand Rick Chow just recently in South Carolina claims self defense didn't take the stand And they were both acquitted. You had Kyle Rittenhouse did take the stand and explained his self defense claim and had that ugly cry I don't know if you guys remember acquitted. So it doesn't require a defendant to actually take the stand, but it does require the defense to try and paint the picture for the jury if you're not.. You talked about bias and how obviously a jury is not supposed to bring that into the courtroom when chosen to be a part of the jury on a case But like humans are humans, right? What you just just never know. Do you think and I don't know if he did this. likeike I know that there was a Batson challenge, which I do want to ask you about, but I don't know if he filed for change of venue And I'm wondering if you think he should because this was a national case, which means it was even bigger in Texas and even bigger in Coin County. Um, you know, ages, with race, with so many different people involved, I would imagine that that it's not like I'm saying it's a small community, but it's close knit Do you think that they should have Change the venue to hear this case. For fairness to I would have I would have tried anything I would have that would have been definitely one of the things I would have tried to do I'm not saying that an all white jury can't render a fair verdict. If y'all remember out in Georgia I'm drawing the blank young black man Mt running. I'm onit right Yeah His three white killers were convicted by a nearly all white jury. eleven white, one black I'm not saying that that is impossible However, it is problematic When a Batson challenge is raised becausecause the prosecution struck The I think three prospective black jurors And they gave a race neutral reason And the race neutral reason was we don't want educators on this jury because we're dealing with a school aged kid at a school related event and we don't want educators feeling sympathetic to the defendant. Very fair. that's okay. cool. Most explanations are race neutral though Mhm. unless you're in that prosecutor's head Most explanations will pass muster. The problem is There are reports that there was a white juror that remained on the jury with a similar professional background So the judge should have compared the shruck jurors with the seated jurors Try to see if there was a pattern of discrimination because discrimination isn't just gonna to announce itself. It's not going to walk into a courtroom with a sign Right? You gott to look at patterns The judge said, no oververruling that challenge. They sat the twelve jurors, not one black juror was on that jury. that alone doesn't prove discrimination. The Constitution doesn't guarantee a defendant a particular jury racial makeup That's just not how that goes. But the jur, but the Constitution doesn't make it legal for the state to strike jurors based on race. And so I just don't think that there was enough of a probe Best believe that this will come up on appeal though. So every objection the defense attorneys made was saved in the record, it will come up. They've already filed for an appeal. and I guarantee that an appellate court will look at notot only the jury selection. I don't think they're going to focus on the evidence per se that was presented to the jury, but just looking at were there legal errors that would have created a different outcome here. Jury instructions were they properly done Jury selection was that properly done U So that's going to come back on appeal. whether that succeeds or not, I don't know, but it is problematic for The judge to not probe more There's like a manual. I was a prosecutor. They tell you how to overcome bs and challenges Like there's a script for it. So anything you say is going to on its face be racially neutral It's a pun it's it's just important for the judge to probe some more. And I don't think that that was done here H Um So Cultural, culturally, there's Obviously a lot of pain and a lot of anger Yeah. it's really not I really don't feel like it is my position to tell people not to be angry But I do feel the need to give them sort of optimal circumstances about which justice could have been done here U when I say justice, I mean, justice by the rule of law as far as a cultural conversation about stand your ground laws, we'll get into that a little bit later how I feel like you know, Back people are people of color non wh people are able to kind of even utilize that if that's even a thing for us. On this particular case though Texas has weird rules for murder, right? Texas doesn't have degrees of murder. Texas has murder and Texas has capital murder There seems to be a very narrow perspective. by its Texas adjudicates the killing of a human being. doesn't there seems to be a wider birth. So there wasn't like first degree life. I'm getting so many questions whyy was this manslaughter? Why was this second degree murder? Why was this third degree murder? Why was it this? I don't think people really understand the ways by which Texas charges and convicts for murder in this situation, they don't understand the charging. they don't understand why it wasn't manslaughter. They don't understand the rejection of the sudden passassion argument. I mean, I had somebody ask me, well, if he was if his intent to kill him If his intent was to kill him, why didn't he stay over him with the knife and stab him seventeen times because he certainly could right. Right. So thenen how do we get here? Eplain like take apart Texas charges murder, the difference in murder charges in Texas and Why you think it should have been manslaughter and not murder just one more time Well, Texas doesn't make a distinction. you're right between first and second degree murder. There's capital murder And then there's just regular murder. Okay, what's capital murder for people who don't care? Capit capapital murder would be There's got to be so you cause someone's death and then there's also an aggravating factor. Okay You kill the cop That's an aggravating factor.. Or you're in commission of a robbery, an armed robbery and in that commission You killed somebody.ight. You killed a child under ten years old. Those are aggravating factors that would That would be charged could be charged as capital murder. And an aggravating factor is something that makes the crime particularly heinous Correct. Okay Officer, child under ten you're in commission of another crime on top of killing somebody those aggravating factors would amount to capital murder Then you have murder without the aggravating factor, which is what Carmelo was charged with The intent that there was intional there was an intentional killing, premeditation, I think that that was an overcharge in my opinion So when people were asking, why wasn't he charged with manslaughter, I have the same question Right? But that's what his defense attorneys were arguing. Now manslaughter, I thought was appropriate here I believe that there was reckless conduct that led to someone's death that reckless conduct in this case, was carrying a knife in your book bag was going over to a rival's tent was going, it was talking Apparently shit about the team. And this is per the witnesses that were presented. I don't know what was there was rumblings about him possibly getting jumped that wasn't presented to the jury in court. R. Whatever was said outside of court, not I'm not even real quick. So I'm not relying on any of that. So all of the stuff to where we had heard stories before that these two boys had had All times all types of smoke before this. And that not true. That none of that stuff was brought in court. None of that stuff was Is real. No No. And if it was, deffense, whereere are you at be helpful though Right will be helpful true that they knew each other. If they knew each other, what you could say was that and we don't know is that he was carrying a knife if he had been jumped before or beat up before if they knew each other, that he was carrying a knife for protection. There are some say that say he was invited to the tent. There was a friend. A friend that said he was was testimony that he was invited to the tent to s invited to the tent to sit down. All of that I guess what I'm like what I'm getting to is for all of the stuff that we know about while he was in the tent. The reason that he would have the knife goes back to what she asked There could be all kinds of reasons he had a knife in his bag and that's something that you would want to hear from him, right? Because he didn't bring the knife presumably to kill somebody at the track meet Like I used to carry a knife in Ban Rous shhit And they have a knife Right? Do somebody you always be like somebody got something and you pull out something and somebody could cut something So ye, I mean, Getting back to like the actuality of the crime itself and the way Texas law works, when they decided to charge him with murder They are essentially saying that he wanted to kill Austin met Calf for pushing him. He wanted to do it Intent can be Intent can be present down to the very second before the act is actually committed. Interesting. It doesn't require somebody it doesn't have to it doesn't require somebody getting out of bed and making a plan to go to this meet to go to this tent to go meet Austin and it can literally be inated Yeah. cororrect. I took out my gun, I shot you in the head, That's intent to kill. And I meant to kill you. Yeah. Yeah. I don't I still don't believe that was the case Yeah. I believe he was trying to hurt him Yeah becausecause you also have to take Caromeello as a As a whole, you got to understand context and who this kid is. He doesn't strike me. So if we were talking about and this is, you know, just a stretch, but like if we were talking about a kid who was in and out of Juvy who has harmed people before who's committed violent crimes before thenen would I say, okay, is it Is it possible that he wanted to, you know, heard him like kill him? Or a kid who had some sort of specific expertise with a knife and knew how to kill and all of that stuff. Yeah. That's just not this kid. Right, rightight Yes, in an ideal world, I would want to hear from Carmelo and want the jury to relate to him and feel sympathetic and understand where he was and in his mind at the time. It's just such a big risk It really is. He could say something that could make the jury just turn on a dime. And then you're opening him up to prosecution questioning and that's a whole not all game. U they'd be salivating at that chance I just wouldn't do that, but as a defense lawyer, I would make sure I'm telling his story for him. That's in the best way possible And I don't know I don't know If he was bullied before, I'd have tony about that why he felt the need to carry a knife, which he was legally able to. R. It might have violated his school policy but it wasn't illegal under Texas law. And that's what I want to get it to. It's so important what you're saying about Okay, he's I'm not going to open him up to be cross examined and put him in the witness stand. But how can I paint his picture? This is a kid who spent most of his life in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, fifty percent black and moves to Frisco, nine percent black or something like that. ' and he moves in high school. You know, like why was there not a witness? Why was there not a parent to talk about why he why they moved him here, how he felt being in a completely different situation Why was there no expert testimony about adolescent development, about imp impulsive nature and emotional nature, like when you're that age and how your brain is developed, No expert witness from the defense. And I think this is a topic of conversation too that people feel like the defense attorney did not adequately represent him in this in this case because there were so few witnesses to tell the story like we're learning it from social media and getting pictures and videos. That wasn't presented to a jury who may have already developed their mind from the national attention that this case got Here's the thing. I don't know if there was pretrial rulings about what could come in and couldn't. So maybe that could be an issue, right? But I did talk to somebody in Texas, a defense lawyer. you and I both know him, Rachel And He said that the parents failed Carmelo And I not I'm not going to go as far as to say that, but I've experienced as a defense lawyer there when talking to prospective clients H question my Oh. My abilities as a lawyer. who will try to nickele and diee me who believe that the white man's ice is colder So go and hire the white guy for However much money that they they're saying they caght. But a parent said that The parents said that they thought that they the parents said the parents were interviewed and they said that they they were Oh I didn't see, I didn't know that, but than you. They thought that they had to go it was they were they were advised, should I say, that it was better to go with a white defense attorney for the c Be they're a white county white and they could probably o Maybe there's some truth to that. I don't know, but I understand cultural competency and being able to advocate for your client and understanding where they come from And I don't know if that was lacking. I don't know this defense lawyer. So I'm not going to question the skills But we've got to stop assuming that white people can advocate for us better than we can We just have to stop doing that. I'm not saying that that was the case here. But in general,, if we're talking about just In general, it's important for us to be very clear on the value the advantages of us representing Us M. And it's also with jury selection. and I'm going to talk generally about this too. and I've been talking about it for years, covering trials for court TV and covering trials for a lot of my career. I've told people we have cameras in the courtroom, please tune in and understand how this all works, including jury selection. See, that's the boring part. People want to get to the good part which is the verdict. And when they don't get the verdict they want, we raise hell But we don't understand that people calling me and asking me how they can get out of jury service is the problem Yeah So when people talk about, what can we do? just do something as simple as just showing up to court when you get that summence Yeah. That's true. And not assuming that white attorneys can advocate better than black attorneys. Yeah That sas a really good point deeply rooted Question And maybe this could be done. When it came to the jury instructions, Van already pointed out that the judge included manslaughter in the jury instructions They did not include criminal negligence Is could that be something that's deemed an error? That wasn't given to the jury as a lesser charge. And then also there was this fight that the defense Van brought this up wanted to include u said that this This was it rose to sudden passion And ye he wanted to use the word provocation. And they and the judge said, no, you're not allowed to do that then also the attorney didn't bring any testimony to even show or define sudden passion. So anyways, the judge took it out. Do you think that that's an err? Could that be something that is talked about an appeal. C he have included criminal negligence within the jury instruction as well as a lesser charge. Not saying the jury would have accepted it. They didn't accept manslaughter, but still. So when you're appealing a conviction and a sentence, you want to throw everything at the wall and see what sticks. So there shouldn't be splicing of should we or should we not throw everything at the wall And The Defense asking for criminal negligence to be involved. that's Lowest hondicide that there is in Texas And the prosecution argued that there was no evidence presented to your point, Rachel by the defense to show that Carmelo just didn't know what the risks were whichich I don't even know how you prove a negative to be honest But They objected to it. The defense tried, they objected the prosecution, and the judge overruled U or didn't go with the defense on this. So they left that out. Cime of passassion Whether passion should have been provocation. was in there. I still think that that was the appropriate term I do think that there was the way that they they described in witness testimony, you know, Austin and Carmelo's interaction, it was heated Apparently there were things that were said Apparently Carmelo said, touch me and find out find out what happened. See that also is it goes to It's a negative on the self defense. If you're provoking an altercation by saying, come here and get it You can't then say self defense when it comes. Well, I understand that Blight I'll say this and this is kind of a cultural thing A lot of times That statement is defending yourself It I'll just be honest with you, where I'm from going, hey You don't want this Well or or hey, come come over here and see what's about to happen That's me trying to talk you out of that. That's me saying, I'm gonna fuck you up if you come over here And and and that's legitimately because if I didn't want to and this is this might sound kind of weird. If I didn't want to go with you I wouldn't say shit I would just be like, let's do it The moment I say the moment I verbalized, if you do this It's going to be bad for you. That's me that's me actually in a very, very toxic way trying to he you out. of you doing what you about to do Like that's that's like like, hey man Come like sometimes you'll be like, hey come close to me, see what I do You don't, you might not want to fight actually not Ccause I knew guys that wouldn't do that. I knew guys that as soon as it was up They coming to you But then there were guys that would run cur out, and then there were guys that' be like, I, come over here and see whats up So even that being u There's some cultural translation that exists there, in my opinion peopleople taking that as him provoking actual confrontation. I don't look at that like that. I look at that as saying, Hey, man, I got something on me Don't do what you're about to do And then when he did it anyway, it was almost as if he's consenting to the interaction. Well and you raise an interesting point about culturally Understanding this could mean something different, which is why it's important to have a diverse jury that can understand that as well. And somebody black who talk talk who could speak to that Who could talk about that. Correct. But I don't think Carmelo made it known that he had a knife ' I think min But he had a hand in his back. I Yeah That's what they say. They say We don't know because there's supposedly some fucking video that exists and we haven't seen that. I don't even know if that's true. There was a video they would have shown it. Okay so you don't believe that there's a would have shown it. Okay. Okay. so you don believe the first thing you see. Okay. Yeah. But apparently there was words being exchanged even before that threat was made, right? Like calling the other team like is Pase. Yawing, you know, he he was doing a fair and that's what you do wherear those schoolools, I guess. but you're in their tent. Right You're rallying things up Some would call that maybe provoking. People may not like what I'm saying, but this is just honestly what was said in court. And if I'm taking what people say as truth and that's what was presented to the jury, right? I don't have anybody else to really counter that with that the defense presented. The only thing the person that I think the defendant the defense arged to the jury was to take these these witness testimonies with a grain of salt because they were from the same school as Austin. Right. They were most could have been some bias. Yeah. And then there was one guy who claimed And then one guy claimed he didn't even know Carmelo. and the defense had to go hold up, hereere are pictures of youan Carmelo right here dapping him up. likeike this, So you do know him. He was invited. Yeah. right? So That should have been hammered home a little bit more. Like let's let's let's look at who we're talking to here can say one more thing. Can say one more thing? Yeah, of course. It seems as if At some point, Austin said Move And then made it seem like if you don't move I'm a movie And then Push them I understand where the self defense falls flat I do. Yes. But I understand where the self defense falls flat. What kind of understand is the framing of Carmelo Anthony as the one of as the provocateur here. because nothing that he if he would have said, I kill everyone in this tent I'll fuck up everybody in this tent. Like if you like Being a black man, I know when somebody wants it Like I'll fuck up you try to make me move. I'll beat your mother fucking ass. I'll fuck up everybody in this tent. I will do that. If I'm saying, hey If you come to me, I'm going to defend myself Yo, that is That to me is where cases like this really get under my skin He's communicating the ability to defend himself Like he's it's that's like a fucking a rattlesnake rattlesake. So I want to o Okay, so I'm going to play Devil's advocate here Why not leave Well He may not have had a duty to rort rel'ious that he's in their tent Right, Right? Like It's not your schoolsent. It's the other opposent team's tent. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so there's no way to argue that mistakes weren't made here. and I will say this though And's another part of it. He's seventeen years old If if he if he leaves the tent right there and this is this is why part of this is the way we communicate to our young boys, right Man I don't wantan to get all wrapped up in emotion, but I used to leadave that house And my dad would look at me and he would see me with somebody and my dad would be like, son. He was he would be like once, son. once one time. He's like, I know you know people that's doing stuff And they doing it all the time and on the tFh time. They get caught He would just look at me. He'd be like, boy One time One time You go out there, you're in the wrong car, you're with the wrong people. He's like a bullet. or jail cell. He was like one time. Please for your daddy be smart. And so and But when you I can't tell you how many times I've been in a situation where I've been in the wrong And I'd been like, oh, are you talking to me like that? Well, fuck you. A you're not about to come move me in front of all of these people? likeike you talk Oh you talk me you talk to me like that, fuck you, fuck you not now what's up Now what's up. So that part of it. is him going back and forth because there's people around and he's a kid. I'm not saying that he did everything correct. I'm just saying there is something here to where I feel like there was on the bone to even explain away that part of it, which I've heard so many people talk about and say, well, he invited a confrontation, he invited this feels like that, but I don't believe that that's what he was trying to do. I believe what he was trying to do was communicate his strength and his ability to protect himself. Unfortunately he had a knife and then that's what he did But like this is so gutting to me that I don't know how I'm even supposed to talk about it. I feel this profound sense of tragedy and I'm trying to make sense of everything I think it also strikes aord because of disparities that we've seen And I think to your point, Van earlier, that when we assert self defense, We don't get the benefit the doubt. One percent of a time. ight And you are two hundred eighty one percent more likely to have a self defense claim accepted by a jury if you're white One person like these are real numbers by it' No it's yet for sure You have people like and, you know, their names are, you know, being thrown out, Kyle, Rittenhouse who stay, you cross state lines to go to a protest for Uh, W Ja Blake He was carrying AR fifteen. He was provoking an altercation.. He claims self defense and he gets acquitted then you get Tray Von Martin. Jeord Zimmerman looking for problems advised by the people not to get out of the car and approach him. Right. advis not to get out of the car approach androach approached him. Night in the rain Got his ass whooed. killed the boy and then we gotta go up, shouldn' have started a fight. Self defense.f fuck, man? self defense. Wh Yeah got quitted. And then you have justust recently at a South Carolina, Rick Choy. Right. who is claiming self defense after you shot him in the back of his life when your fear is running away from you Yeah. You chased him, hunted him. He's chasing him He's not a threat to you. Do you know what the thing is? Do know what the thing is? This is the thing You see stand your ground That's not your ground Right is their ground It' not your ground. You ain't got no ground to stand You can't stand your ground because this is not your country, this is not your land. That's not your ground. It's their ground. And they keep telling you over and over and over again that it's theirs and you better move, you better walk light, you better say the right thing or they'll kill you and then twelve people will send that person on vacation. If it were your ground, you could stand it at the same fucking way that they could stand their ground at can't do that becausecause as soon as you do that, you are thrown back into this caveman belief that they have about us. So you take a seventeen year old kid and you make him into somebody who decided that he wanted to kill a white boy that day. Well we fucking all know that that's not what the fuck happened. N the case. Right. I think this goes back to your point of we have to stop thinking that just because they're white, they it's right and that's better. And that is in regard to the attorney that he chose. The way that we're having this conversation and laying out The talking about culturally of what the meaning means with the words that Van said about like, hey, that's me saying, donon't come over here. That's a defense of talking about statistically, and I don't even know if you could have bring an expert in this, but at least could have been a part of your closing argument about how black boys are viewed in society about a young black boy coming into a predominantly white situ. goo ahead I'm sorry. I'm sorry Rachel He made the mistake, the defense and the prosecution saying from the out like out set of this case. This isn't about bllack or white. Exactly, which which they I guess they were responding to the chaos that was happening right outside the courthouse, with the chaos that was happening on social media. notothing could be further from the truth. when it comes to the criminal legal system. There's always a black or white thing. But you know why he did that You know why he did that? He was trying to assuming he was trying to play into I don't want to make it all about race because then they're going to say is you know, it's Coin County. I'm looking at the makeup of this jury. If I focus too much on race, that yeah, like that's a white mentality comoming in and seeing that rather than understanding You've got to make them understand us. Like that's part of your job as an attorney. And there's nothing wrong with it. I don't understand why they think that saying. Something isn't about black or white is is a good thing. It's not a bad thing if it is. it's understanding why it is Yeah. right. You've got to understand this. You've got to understand how They speak. we speak what it actually means that there could be a problem in understanding that culturally. right? You got to understand And once you accept that, you open your mind up to actually understanding, okay, let me try and put myself in a position that I don't really quite understand, which is why it's so important to have a diverse jury of your peers Go back to the idea of was this the wrong county to try this case in shouldhould we have moved One of the witnesses said onn the stand, I was looking at the transcript. One of the witnesses said something like, is one of the coaches And when he pointed Carmelo out, he said, he looks different today He's like, he's cleaned up orr he's like that was I'm paraphrasing, but that was the sentiment which plays into the mind of this was a black guy disheveled came into their tent with a knife causing trouble. So like they can play into the racial and cultural aspects, but then you as a defense attorney isn't there to make them understand what that means. Like for a witness to even say that I don't I didn't see an objection made, but an objection should have immediately been made when he said, Well, he's clean shaven. because what are you implying Oh, he's just putting on for court Yeah Yeah, like you're playing into it all. This was this is an honorll kid. A leader Two jobs school. workork two jobs Yeah. Two jobs This is not somebody that just came in to try to impress you He's an impressive kid. The judge even said so and he made a comment like two days ago, saying he seemed like a nice kid Right He was I don't see this isn't a profile with killer. Yeah Right? But now he's a killer And the thirty five years So not only are we overcharged, but we're also more harshly sentenced Because when you think about the cases out of doubts, I can name him off. Roy Oliver killed Jordan Edwards This is an officer who's lived life, whose brain was formulated, who should know better And he got fifteen years Ernd Dan killed a Tatiana Jefferson in her own home. Yeah Not twelve years. Amber Geiger Y shhot B both in Joan, who' sitting in his living room eating ice cream minding his business She gets ten years This nineteen year old gets thirty five years Mhm Well, those are Texas cases. Right Right. Right. Um R. U thank you so much. Yes for breaking that down. We like that yeah It's heavy. much, It's very heavy B by the way, I'm joining Strongghouse Fitness Are you gonna to go with Jerry? You to work Jerry? Who introducce you to Jerry is jer is. Do you work with J You work with Jerry? So I did. Okay I did. I used to too. did. I did. I met Jerry somewhere. I haven't gone in yet yet. I know. He's always like, whyy would't you come back yet? I'm like I can't afford. Rach' come back. He told me about that Apparently they've expanded their gym because their gym was a little tight for me Right So apparently it's it's going to be bigger so I may come back and see you. van, but he is definitely no joke. Yeah. so it's it's operation Tittity destruction Oh you can it's gonna happen quick because that's a gym where like you It's like a cross fit gym that fil. like everybody is fit. Everybody is there to. There's no playing around. I'm not doing No, but it's very personal. No L, look at what he's done with Bose. Like Bose looks incredible. It's Benny G No No you guys, Jerred fucked you Like's like I'm not going in there. I'm I can't do one of those. like it's a good It's a good. I should have known because I saw Benny Boom walking in there, the director and Benny Boom been in shape since nineteen ninety six. So like it's like I'm not you guys you guys close by the studio. You tment. I know. Yeah Yeah. like going there there I'll go with How about that? Just go see. Yeah. Yeah, just go see, just go check it out. I'll hold your hand through. Thank you so much. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you guys. All right, take it easy Mine sorry I know that went a little longer than I told you, but thank you. That was great. That was great. Be guys back We're back again on Thursday back on Thursday On Thursday, I'm gonna to talk about another video that I saw over to break Now I'm gonna talk about your mamas again Talk about your mamass and your daddiess We will have that conversation Thursday Right now we got to go, but think about it Be on notice. I'm talking about yall mamas on Thursday. It's going to be out Friday