Cleopatra's Legacy and Cultural Afterlife

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Check resespons is set up required compatibility and availability varies eighteen plus Welcome to the History Extra podcast We've got the last installment today of our four part Sunday series on the life and cultural afterlife of Cleopatra And I'm joined once again by Islam Isisa, prorofessor of Public Humanities at Birmingham City University and author of numerous books, including Alexandria The City That Changeed the World Today we're going to be exploring the final chapter of Cleopatra's story, the events that led to her death, what happened next, and why this ancient queen continues to captivate us thousands of years later Islam, Thankk you so much for being back with us as we go into the fourth and final episode of our series exploring Cleopatra. We left the previous installment on something of a cliffhanger We are talking about the donations of Alexandria. which was a part party, part coronation, I think it's right to say, that was held As we alluded to in that episode was going to have enormous and unintended consequences Can you just bring us back up to speed as to what this festival was And then what was to happen next? Yeah, it's a festival that really cemented the relationship between Athony and Cleopatra. It's one in which Cleopatra distributed the lands of her empire. among her children who are the son of Caesar childildren of Mark Anthony She named herself Queen of Kings and her son Cesareian King of Kings, but it was seen as something of it hostile move by the Romans because it was because this is the kind of event that would ordinarily be for huge Roman victories and also because they hadn't approved of all the decisions that she had made So Octavian this stage Red flags He has to respond How did he respond? Well, his propaganda machine is in full swing So there's no doubt now that they're enemies. and it's about who makes the first move and It seems that Anthony and Cleopatra decide to make the first move, they combined their soldiers Probably about a hundred thousand soldiers. that have eight hundred battleships and they lead their troops to active Please to face Octavian. So they actually seem to make the first move because it's so obvious now that the two parties, if you like coexist. This really delicately balanced relationship between these three people has finally started to Breakdown Once of all, it's broken down and it's now clear that Octavian is not on Athony's side and that Anthony and Cleopatra are on the same site being said When the battle commences, Octavian can't quite finish off Antony's troops because Cleopatras are behind him then Cleopatra makes a decision to retreat. suddenly Cates. kind of sells Athony out at that moment I always think it's maybe getting him back because he ghosts her and they're twins for three years. but In all seriousness, I think she realizes that maybe she shouldn't get on Octavian's wrong side entirely. It the story of Cleopatra constantly one where she's trying to maintain a balance and not trying to put all her eggs in one basket just in case or her figs in one basket. Nice just in case Octavian is the one who emerges victorious. So she actually retreats. So even when the stakes have become as high as they are here, she is constantly making decisions on the fly between different people, two different sides and trying to do the best thing for her dynasty. It's to me a kind of pragmatic way of thinking There's probably some civil unrest in Alexandria as well Why is the quQeen left Egypt. Why is she fighting a sort of foreign war and She comes back to take control of Egypt again. So there's an element of pragmatism in that sense as well. And I think at this stage she probably knows that the end is near if she's not very careful So she sends gifts to Octavian actually at this stage. She's trying to manage that relationship with Octavian now as well. She sends him gold actually does something astonishing at this stage. She offers to abdicate the throne I did not know this. She offers to ab toate the throne under the condition, however, that Her sons can rule Does she want to stay in Egypt When they're in power Or is she preparing some sort of exile maybe eastwards We may never know. How was the offer received? Octavian is said to have agreed under the condition that Antony dies. So we have that complexity here that actually Maybe Octavian sees the real danger in this Anthony not so much Cleopatra's children. If I were to think like Octctavian, I'd agree that gets rid of Cleopatra under the condition that Antony dies. Cay Patra loves her children, so she'll agree. and then kill her children. So that's how I imagine Octavian would have been thinking at this stage when he agreed to that under that condition But what we're presented with here as well is Cleopatra having to make a decision. She has to make a decision between her own life. so she'd spare her own life childildren's lives, her families Legacy in Dynasty or Anntony And I think the choice is pretty obvious that she She would pick all of those things over Anthony It's an intense situation in an intense life story You mentioned therere the Battle of Actium, am I right? Can you pick us back up with what's happening there and what its outcome was going to be? Well amidst all this negotiation don't quite know the extent to which Octavian trusted Cleopatra. To understand Cleopatra, sometimes we you have to think through the perspectives of others as well. So I think thinking like Octavian here Probably doesn't trust her and he sends At that time, the biggest Roman invading army to date towards Alexandrira. So he sends over forty thousand key goal here is to overpower Patrra And what happens after that is probably not the main question at this stage. I think he wants to defeat her. And then this is a story that starts moving very quickly from this point What is the next thing that we need to make sense of chart, the events in these final moments of Cleopatrra's It's Octavian surrounding the city from east and west Anthony' said to be at this time depressed. Some reports say suicidal could be propaganda, but he doesn't seem to be very active in the process And there's clearly only going to be one winner And it's a matter and hour of Cleopatra trying to figure out those next steps will be how does she save theynasty And in all likelihood, how does she not have a humiliating end as well Given this was a situation that she was faced with Does she decide to do. The key decision appears to be taking her own life And as we will go on to explore as this episode develops, this is one of the many moments in which Cleopatra's life is sort of shrouded by so many layers of myth and legend and storytelling that it's sometimes difficult to tell. what actually happened What is your take on the reality of what what happens? A nuanced answer would start with the fact that Do we think that Octavian would have wanted her dead? And I'd say yes So the chance of murder cannot be completely ruled out. Okay, I'm not going to sit here and say Cleopatra was murdered but I'm just going to say, The chance of murder can't be completely, completely ruled out. slightly controversial statement But it appears And sources would suggest and I'm of the opinion that she did kill herself. Now why she killed herself B so that she's not imprisoned, paraded humiliatingly around Rome, which is in all likelihood with Octavian would have done with her So taking her own life was a way of ating her own story. which is not out of character because she has done that throughout her life creating her own narrative, so to speak. So she had a spy netw work. so she would have known the Octavian had a plan to capture her to parade her around Rome and she actually sends Octavian a note which implies that she knows death is coming because she asks him to bury her in a dignified way Next to Anthony and surely that would trigger Octavian's army too quickly go to Cleopatra to ensure she doesn't do that because she may also have treasures that he wants to know about. I don't know about transransition period, but she knows a lot about Egypt and its natural resources and so on. so I don't think he wanted her dead immediately not just to parade her, but I think she could have been useful in other ways And she could have he could have used her as a sort of bargaining tool with her children. There's a lot of advantages to her being captured alive. And on that note, I think She knew that it would be better for her to be dead So she probably would have bathed dressed in her best clothes, the Egyptians of course, believed in the importance of the afterlife So she would have tried to prepare for that and then take her own life and create a narrative around that particular action It's really humanizing think about her. potentially making these sorts of decisions because so often when we think about these stories they are stories. we think about them in almost quite cartoonish terms And as I alluded to in this episode, we're going to be unpacking and exploring some of the myths One of the myths around her death is connect to an Asp and an asp bte Where does this come from? and Does it have any basis at all in anything, real? Well, the whole method of suicide isn't entirely clear So the idea of poison gets mentioned Plutarch. Plutarch is a century afterwards He's biased towards the Romans. So it's the Roman historiian who suggest the poison And actually her personal physician, who's quoted by Plutarch doesn't mention a cause of death Where I'm at with that is poisons were researched in Alexandria So so there's a chance that She knew An effective, painless way to go and we know that she was well read and that she was involved with the library and that kind of thing. So maybe she knew something of that sort So I guess she would have placed it in a needle or something and maybe put it into her arm as the most likely sort of place. The earliest extxtant source is Strabo and he writes that she received a fig basket and that inside was this asp this in Greek was actually the word for the Egyptian Topra So that's where that story comes from The snake bite, which you ask about, that remains debatable in all likelihood pooison Snake bites There's a lot of symbolism there And actually to such an extent that it could be a rumor of her own making that she made before she died because the Cobra is a sacred servant of the sun Godd, the royal protector. So this is a very royal Death. it serves her narrative, that kind of heroic narrative And then obviously with popular culture later. the bite on the arm gets moved to the breast. it's a kind of more sexualized view of Cleopatra. we get that in Shakespeare, for example So you think poison potentially, but the rest of it less likely. I would say less certain. Yeah, the rest is less certain. can see the asp being her own narrative. And Mark Anntony has also died by this point. What do we know about that part of the story? Well, Mark Antony was said to be not in a good place at this stage. he's given up on his own ambitions There's a chance that both Anthony and Cleopatra know that the other person is about to die So they see even less reason to live, so to speak If we're thinking about why would Caypatra commit suicide This is a good comparative point because it tells you a lickam which more weight herer death has than Anntony's. And to return to the nature of Cleopatra's death Do we know what happened to her body after she died Well, it's a big mystery Where is the tomb of Cleopatra? Where is the tomb of Alexander for that matter both supposedly in Alexandria It's interesting because When you go to Alexandria, people have theories about where those tombs are My theory is that it's under my auntie's hererb garden. You head here first. inccredible. Excellent. Yeah that's not my real take on this as an historian. It's good to clarify this We was surprised surpriseed the Roman sources tell us that Octavian honored her request by giving her a gracious burial alongside Mar Anntony Clearly, Octavian is still using that propaganda tool to show how great he is because look how he's honored her Now I don't necessarily by that idea that he gave her a royal funeral. I just based on everything we've discussed in this podcast, can you see Octavian giving her a royal funeral Maybe, maybe not And so He may have feared the couple be venerated, especially Cleopatra. She was seen as like an incarnation of the goddess Isis possible that He buried them in an anonymous location Oh buried them anonymously so people don't in future don't know where they are. Is it possible that he buried them a bit further away from Alexandria from the city? Is it possible that he cremated them I think those are all viable questions to ask. And do you think that are all viable questions. They're all in the running. Yeah, I do. I think they're all in the running. Somet in me wants them not to be I want the tomb of Cleopatra to be found. It would be the most amazing discovery and Alexandrians do believe as part of our culture to Mith Cleopatra is somewhere in thatom. that region and likewise the tomb of Alexander the Great, which has been lost The tomb at Alexander is fascinating that it's been lost because we have records of Roman emperors going there, including Caesar and Octavian They went to the tomb of Alexander. Wh where did that go? Interestingly, when Octavian arrives and takes Alexandria A few things happen among them related to Alexander the Great's tomb, which is that apparently he goes to the tomb, presumably to be blessed by Alexander or of respect Alexander and breaks break something someone's nose. And I think talking of propaganda, that's a symbolic story about how the Romans weren't quite welcome at the time that they they were changing the landscape They didn't understand Alexander's vision for a kind of metropolis kind of thing But alsoll say commemorate victory, he becomes Augustus and changes the name of the month August is the month in which he entered Alexandria. He can't just be Julius Ces here has a month named after him after all So it's obvious they' really important. event and talking of importance, this is the shift now. Cleopatrra story is so important because this is the shift in world history that we go from the Roman Republic to the Roman Empire It's one of the biggest moments in Ancient history, certainly, if not wider history as you're saying. What other repercussions in the immediate aftermath of Cleopatra's death should we talk about? what happened, for instance, to her children? Well, it's no surprise that Caesarean little Caesar is immediately killed Octavian adved to do so seems like a very obvious thing to do. So not only is Caesar assassinated, but Caesar's son is assassinated whichich we don't really think about when we think of Cesus as. We don't think of it in those terms. Yeah. So that's the key son that she was sort of preparing for this role So I said earlier that Cleopatra doesn't want to get paraded around Rome So you can guess what happened to her children. the ones, you know, Anthony's children The three children taken to Rome and they're paraded humiliatingly around Rome and only one of them is spared. So her daughter from Antony, who's called Cleopatra is spat, whereas the other children are not. Octavian seems to have had some inclination that it was important to keep her as some sort of tool becausecause what he does is he marries her to a king. He marries her to King Juba second of Mauritania. Mauritania is a kind of empire with're talking sort of modern day Algeria So she ends up there, is which is fascinating that Patras only surviving child ends up in Mauritania which is about two thousand miles away. So Northwest Africa. One thing that I was really intrigued to discover when I was researching this story for my book is that because the book is about Alexandria and how important, for example The lighthouse was as an ancient wonder of the world. is that Cleopatra's daughter builds like a mini Lighthouse thousand miles away as a way of hon honoring her city, which is really that's beautiful. It is, isn't it? It's an unexpected little touch. and also It's a quiz for you now? Oh God it. What's she going to name her son Oh, o, I know there's Ptolemaic. Ptolemy right? So again, she continues the Ptolemaic line in some way, albeit thousands of miles away that we have a new Ptolemy whose Cleopatra grandson And that he becomes king, he becomes Ptolemy of Muritania What's fascinating is that He travels to Alexandria to see the city of his ancestors And he rules until around the year forty we're in the common era now until intervention from guess who Romans and they se seize Mauritaniia, Celegula takes M Ititalia, but some sort of really human Continuity in the story as well. I'd like to talk for a bit now about some of the other ways in which we should think about Cleopatra And there's a whole range of them. Do you think we need to think about her love for her children carrying that through is one of the most important things for her as a key part of this story. Yeah, I think so in the context of for example, her father killed her sister So that's the comparative point we've got here. It's quite an extreme comparative point Yes, she championed her children because she wanted the continuation of power and dynasty But she also did it in a way that was very clearly supposed to be emphasizing her role as mother, not just as quQeen not least, presenting himself as Isis, who's the mother of horrus in Egyptian mythology So it's a very important part of her as a complete person And another thing that you've really highlighted across these four episodes is Alexandria as a seat of great learning and great wisdom and knowledge Should we see Cleopatra in these same terms? Should we see her as being a great linguist or a great scholar? I think that's something that's very often overlooked in her story because there are other more exciting ier elements to the story but also because Western Egyptology has often stuck with the same sources And because the Roman sources that were so biased have portrayed her as a seductorress and emphasized certain aspects of her the medieval Arabic texts, for example talk about her being an intellectual We know that she lived in a Global Knowledge Capital Plutarch writes about her speaking a dozen languages and how well read she was and that she would debate men. So Certainly, I don't think anybody should be doubting the extent to which she was educated and from more I can see the extent to which she was able to bring that into political life by thinking outside the box, whether it worked or not. She's not necessarily an ordinary leader. She didn't just abide by expectations that Rome had or her family had or the politics at the time I am really interested in that idea you mentioned there about how in other intellectual traditions or types of source or sources from other cultures She is portrayed in a very different way to the stereotypical image that we might have Why do you think those sources are not better known And how stark is the difference in how she is portrayed? Well, I think there's a language and culture thing So The source I mentioned is tenth century Arabic Mas Odi So that's not really part of the main sort of canon of history about her. There's also looking at things from an outsider kind of perspective So if you go to Egypt today, You willll see that she's very much loved in the same way that I was raised to think of her in a heroic way and found that quite normal and only later in life did I encounter a different version of her and become quite shocked? So we can live in our own echo chambers and bubbles whether I mean, one could argue the same in Egypt where she's a hero But those are some of the reasons. there's also popular culture emphasizes some aspects more than others The snake bite, everything that comes with that is much more interesting. And then I go back to the idea that Oct Aavian had such a huge impact on how we portray her today through his writing, which was then the source for Plutarch is then the source for a lot of popular culture. One thing I would add is the Library of Alexandria dec clined and was eventually destroyed or vanished And that must have held some histories And there's a chance that when she was finally out of the picture that some of the texts about her were destroyed or never rewritten and so on. so The fact that ancient Alexandria or Cleopatra's Alexandria is Partly under the water and partly under the modern city doesn't help either. So it's that and the propaganda that sort of skewed our picture of There's a lot there, isn't there? And then I don't think you can underestimate the popular culture as well from art to literature. And speaking of that popular culture, how do you think we walk the line of Cleopatra as a figure of femininity, of her as a sexual character How do we balance these competing views of her and present a non cartoonish version of her as a woman Well, I think she was very proudly feminine Like I don't think she was hiding the fact she's a woman and lot of what she did was emphasizing that femininity like the idea of motherhood The idea that she can rule alone. as a woman, is something I think she was very aware of So I don't think she's hiding her femininity And at the same time, there is nothing wrong with Beauty no matter what that beauty is, it might be beauty of physical appearance, but it could also be a beauty in charisma, a beauty and a smile That's not something to be ashamed of that we can say, Oh, Cleopatra Maybe not beauty, mayaybe attractveness. The the Batter was attractive I mean, she's attractive to us in this podcast the way we're talking about her. she's obviously making us think about her and imagine her and so on. and that's nothing to be ashamed of. To return us to some of the other leading male figures of this story Can I get your sense of what the reality was of Cleopatra's relationship with them How would you characterize those relationships? So with Caesar, she was very young. still a teenager and he's quite a bit older and he's a big celebrity and he's very powerful So I imagine that they were attracted to each other for different reasons She's young She's ambitious He is this person that she can maybe look up to or utilize. As for Anthony, I think it's a bit more complicated So we do have some evidence that their relationship went beyond the political, so to speak, like they had fun. So Alexandria had all these clubs in it and they sort of founded their own inimitable livers, which is a great name. So they were living their life. Plutarch writes about how extravagant they were. they would drink and have these big dinners and debates and so on. So they spent time together out of choice by the look of it, which I think always bodes well for a relationship There's one reference to Cleopatra giving her books for the library, which wasn't completely destroyed by Caesar, but it was damaged. but that's an interesting little note. There's a fascinating story about them going fishing on the Nile And they basically fish for perch and Anthony pays his men to put fish there for him. so that he doesn't look like he's terrible at fishing And so she realizes this apparently. And what she does is she then gets her people to put some s probablyably like a tuna, something that just doesn't exist in the Nile and a really big one so that when he gets it out He is the laughing stock then of everyone because how could you get this ocean fish out of the river. That's a great story and it really does tell me that she has a sense of humour. It also shows her knowledge of local customs because apparently she says to him, you know, leave fishing for the locals and that kind of thing. So I think they had a really Good relationship At certain times there's another story where they basically go around knocking on people's doors and running off. Which is kind of immature, but the source says that the people loved it. I imagine that the people couldn't really say, what are you doing? No when they they not. The power damping in that situation is all wrong. Yeah. so yeah, there's a lot to suggest that she had a good relationship with Anthony, but probably that she would have been disappointed when he eloped and left her with the twins for three years story paints these characters in a whole different light. I've never thought of about them knocking doors and running away. It's incredible On that note, are there any other ways in which you think we should view Copatra. Weve sort of tried really hard across these four episodes to compplicate her as a person to introduce all sorts of other dimensions and nuance. Are there other traits that you think we should cover? Yeah, I mean the key to me is to humanise her. We've already been through that to some extent Another aspect of that would be her ability to amalgamate cultures. which is a very important aspect of Her rule suggested her understanding of the people that she was ruling. So this idea that the early Ptolemese champion Serapis is the god because he's a Greeko Egyptian deity and then that she speaks Egyptian. And she speaks that she wears both Egyptian and Greek clothes that she respects both the Egyptian and the Greek gods. I think that's a really important part of her. And are there any other misconceptions about her that you'd like to dispel? Nm sure I'd say dispel as such. I mean, I'd say we need to think about them a bit more logically and try to piece them together. You know, we have things like bathing in milk. There's probably no evidence of that We do know that the Egyptians ca for their skin. That's a really interesting one. you just mentioned the bathing and milk thing because you're right, if we think about that in In practical real world terms, it does have a connection to something that feels real and to which we can identify And I think that process of saying This might be a custom which has echoes or parallels in our own time is a really important way of making these stories feel part of history rather than some storybook story. Exactly. And again, it's because they're humans, but piecing it together. That's why I love the idea of spatial history So writing about the history of Alexandria really helps us understand Cleopatra. because for example, we find out the Egyptians found Eeralds So did she wear jewelry Well, she probably did because she had a lot of emeralds at her disposal and interestingly the emeralds became Liz Taylor's favourite jewelry later and so on. Liz Tayl, of course, who played Copatra in the nineteen sixties film. Exactly. So we can sort of deduce things like that. didid she like perfume? We know that her ancestors with Alexander the Great actually went to Persia. where they already had perfumes and where they found these oils and so on And then we seem to have evidence that she may have had a perfume factory in Alexandria. So yeah, so we can start to piece some things together It doesn't seem like that would be a private endeavor to have a perfume factory probably state endorsed. When we say perfume factory, are we thinking of a factory in the modern sense? Yeah, a place where Perfumes are made. Okay yeah yeah Yeah. a place where perfume is made and mixed where oils and so on are mixed and different flowers and spices and that kind of thing And and it makes sense again, because Aristotle wre about that stuff and We haven't mentioned Aristotle but Aristotle was in some ways the intellectual godfather of Alexandria because he taught Alexander and Ptolemy I, so the first Ptolemy, her great great grandfather was taught by Aristotle That's a fascinating little insight Aristotle's taught by Plato and Platussaed by Socrates. So Pltolemy I and Alexander have a really interesting lineage of knowledge And it made sense for the city to have a library and so on as a result Yeah, that there's some stuff we can deduce that makes us think that these things could be true. The cockle is like the black eyeliner, the Egyptians did use that they did. So So there's a very big chance that she did. as well. So some of these things do have basis in fact. It's just unpicking the extent to which that is the case. It is. I think it's making sort of an intelligent estimate about it. rather than speculating out of the blue, but it's also thinking about how it might have been normal, why she might have done it as well It's not, you know, is she putting the eyeliner on to seduce the Romans, actually the main reason is because they believed it had medicinal advantages. So it's also thinking about the intentions behind all of that. Is there anything else that you think before We wrap up any other cultural depiction of Cleopatra that you think we should just pause and reconsider I'd say one is the destruction of the library. So we know that Caesar does or his army does set fire to the library not completely destroyed We have references to it in later centuries. So it doesn't undergo a decline And I think one of the ideas that she was involved in period and the destruction of the library is untrue. And actually she was I would imagine a champion of the Great Library of Alexandria because it was such an important symbol, but also because of the soft power that it gave her and gave the city and and Egypt And then one of the ideas is that she's a kind of drunken seductress that we get from the Roman sources It's important to pause there. She did used to drink with Athony on, but this idea that she was able to change the world for two powerful heroes from Bide Mark Anthony and Julius Caesar And so the Roman sources would certainly have to find a way of explaining that and that's maybe where that comes from. One last thing as well is this idea that she's not necessarily Egyptian. Now she was born, raised in Alexandria. Her family had been ruling there for centuries. It's a bit like saying the royal family today is not British, they're German or something. It doesn't quite add up to me and the fact she emphasized her Egyptianness so much. So It's also about you know the fact that it's an enigmatic mother, enigmatic grandparents. couldould they have been Egyptian? Did she have some Egyptian? At the end of the day, it's not about the bloodline. I think she was very much Hellenistic and Egyptian queen That's really important to remember. For my final question, I'm going to ask something that feels faintly redundant given what we've talked about over the past four episodes, but why do you think it is the fact that we remember Cleopatra over some of the other remarkable female figures from this story from this period. What is it about her that has such staying power. Part of the answer to that is a bit sad, which is that she was the final phharaoh, so to speak. I mean, the Romans do champion themselves as pharaohs But it's a slightly different thing then because Egypt is part of a bigger empire For the first time really in that significant sense, Alexandria is no longer a Empire capital, it's more of a country capital and so on So the fact that these huge world events They're regional events, but they have a big impact on world history, let's say But it's the beginning of the Roman Empire kindind of the loss as well is part is part of it and that loss is Rome's gain Tavian's gain Roman Empire is well and truly underway But on that note, also the fact that she challenge the roow The fact that she didn't give into Rome in a way that might have been expected that she's able to challenge Rome with these big characters like Julius Caesar in the frame and also that she does so as a woman from Egypt and Egypt will always have this to fascinate She's a strong character in an extraordinary period of history Absolutely Absolutely And that's about it for this four part series on Cleopatra. Islam, thank you so much again for such a fascinating look at this extraordinary woman If you've enjoyed the series and want to go beyond the podcast, you can visit the History Extra app where I've curated a list of wider content related to her life and times. And next up in our Sunday series, Eleanor Evans will be speaking to Adam Smith about the American Revolution. Don't miss that, but for now Goodbye