Future of Monarchy and Holograms

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New summer arrivals are at Nordstrom Rack stores now. Get ready to save big with up to sixty percent off brands like Rag and Bone, Levi's, Adidas, and Free People. Join the Nordy Club to unlock exclusive discounts, shop new arrivals first, and more. Plus, buy online and pick up at your favorite rack store for free Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack C royal women be misunderstood In this episode of the History Extra podcast, Kate Williams contends that they absolutely have been Speaking to Charlotte Vosper about a whole host of figures from Cleopatra to Grace Kelly, Kate challenges the stereotypes that have painted Queens as mad Bad or just not up to the job challenges the myths and stereotypes. which have presented queens as evil, mad or not just up to the job throughout the past How did you choose the women to include in your book? Well, Charlotte, that was the tough question because there were so many choices. I could have written volume after volume and it was a large battle with the publisher on my word count because it kept expanding. but I really wanted to pick out queen who have been seen as iconic of so often of failure or success and to analyze this. So we have everyone from perhaps Chepsu to Cleopatra to Mary I, to Marie Antoinette to Grace of Monaco. I know I've worked a lot on mononarchy in the past and female Monarchy, but looking at them all over time really brings trends and patterns that are repeated from the most ancient time right up until the modern day. over and over again we see queens being characterised as failures and overled by their emotions and not up to managing money in particular. that's a key one. And it really strikes me that Yes, these women live in a gilded cage. They are wealthy beyond measure. In the earlier period, they decide who lives and dies. cannot pour them women under the thumb, but yet they are emmblematic of the stories that are told about all women. If someome of our most significant women in society, which queens are seen as failures, military failures, financial failures, just led by their heart, sexualized, romanticized then what does that do to perceptions of women? If we get obsessed with Marie Antoinette, bringing the revolution, bringing down Versailles due to spending too much money, if we have Cleopatra's enemies saying she bought ruin on all Egypt and everywhere else beside, perception that this is what women do when they get a tiny bit of power or a tiny bit of freedom or a tiny bit of money, I think does impact on all women. We might say it's got no connection what we say about Cleopatra or Anne Bolen or Marie Antoinette in terms of whether we'll ever get a female president of the United States or whether we'll see many more women in political power across the world. But I think it does. These narratives that we weave these most celebrated women impact on all women. That's a really interesting idea. And you mentioned there those trends and patterns in quQeenship. and that's something we're going to be drawing out in this interview. You open the book with Hatchsipsit, one of the earliest female rulers. With no blueprint for queenship How did she go about legitimizing her roule? Well her shep suit, I mean she's Absolutely sensational She is expected to be she's king's daughter. She's the consort of the king And then she's the king's stepmother. And that is a role that gives a woman quite a lot of power anyway at court And yet she vaultts her role as the stepmother of the next pharaoh into one of a female king. She becomes a female monarch. She pretty much pushes her stepson out of the way and becomes this female monarch parking back to her father who had seen her as his blood descendant and She manoeuvers herself into power and with, I think, the asent of all the networks around her, I think we sometimes underestimate and often misogynistic history is underestimated that these women wouldn't get into power if the men around them didn't agree with it and didn't want them in power. These are networks and networking know right back to one thousand five hundred BC. the WhatsApp group in the Houses of Parliament has its equivalent in ancient Egypt. and these men agree with Hatchheps in power She takes this and creates an iconography that she was always destined to be monarch in an incredible mortuary to in the mansion of millions of years which when you go to Luxor, you can just see opposite the other side of the Nile, it's just there, an absolute vision. She has this whole birth of her as a king, the birth story of her as male, that the god comes to her mother in the palace and the baby is formed on the wheel as the gods do. And this is a baby boy. And when she becomes this female king, she really excludes from her iconography her roles before as daughter, as wife and also priestess, which is very significant role that she assumes and becomes a female king. and we really see her kind of moving her own vision of herself. She starts out quQeenie. Kingy And then she goes more more kingy and then she just goes full king and she has the full outfit of a male monarch. And she completely excludes in her stories how she did use her position as the great High priestess, which is so important to her eyes. The role of Great High priestess, which is given to the king's daughter, is given a massive significance. This young woman is sent to commune every day with a Godd with Amun and she communes with him. She sings with him, she dances with him And she stimulates him to gifts to the country. If there is agricultural success and great fertility, it's thanks to Amon, it's thanks to her. And this position really gets her in with the priest class, with a class of men who controls religion in the whole of Egypt. And that role, I think, really does vaolult Hapshepsit into power. And that's so fascinating because that is only a role that a woman can take on. And the fact that she's had that, that female role and yet She uses it to vault herself into a position of power where she is a female king and by the maturity of her reign, she's all in male dress It's totally fascinating. It absolutely is. You mentioned there her male dress Wush she bending gender norms Or was she using the only language of power available at the time, do you think? I think this is the million dollar question about Hheps suit. For me, I think, Pat Shepsot saw herself as beyond gender. and I think she saw herself as embodying both genders. and it's very interesting because In Egyptian mythology, when you die, you do comeome the transcendent of gender. And I think we see that in a lot of releligions and mythologies, don't we that we imagine them When we go to the afterlife, we' be free of sexual jealousy, sexual needs. The angels aren't doing that kind of thing. But in Egyptian mythology, when you die, you can combine with Osiris and become really both genders and so I think that ep that she's really building on a long tradition. And also to her, I think, monarchy is beyond gender and that's what she portrays herself as And you know, throughout history, I think the women who are seenist of simimilar to men are the ones who are congratulated. I think about Napoleon saying that Mary Louise, the daughter of Marie Antoinette was the only man he feared. And Elizabeth I, the iconic speech about having the body of a weaken be woman, but the heart and stomach of a king. And we have other women who do dress as men throughout History think about When Mary I was the first corination of a woman, she adopts some of the male dress, but not other parts of it. So she has the sword that the male ing would carry the coronation, but she also has the sepive of the consort and she doesn't actually wear the royal spurs, she touches them. So aspects are combined. And I think this is always the question for women, particularly in the earlier period, how do you be both woman and monarch? and what Hseps has done in terms of creating a mythology of female kingship is a real problem for descendants. She's cancellled out, she's scraped off. and when you go the mansion in Billion ofview it's like scrapes on the wall and what really amuses me? is it's done in such a shoddy way? They kind of like just scrape it off a little bit. you can see that there's a shadow there. And in the amazing new Grand Egyptian Museum they have been head of the obelisk and Hat Shepit was supposed to be giving offerings to the god on the obelisk, and they cross her out and they replace her with some random actually quite badly drawn flowers. I mean, I could do better. You've got the flowers giving presents to the god I think know, what was it? Was it that the workman just thought, o, not being paid enough for this. She did it a bit shoddly and wandered off for lunch Or was it that they feared that if they actually totally cancellled out Hatshepsuit curse of the god come upon them and they didn't do it. And as a consequence We didn't know about Hatsepsit for so many years until really in the nineteenth century that European explorers who were there they stoped I don't understand why this person is a king They referring to her as a she. So it was because some of the pronouns had been left in. So it was something of a problem for her descendants and they cut out all the images of her as a female king, but not images of her as a consort, as a woman. thoseose were allowed to stay. So it wasn't all of that shepsuit that were erased, just those bits. But the female king idea does resurface with Cleopatra She called herself, like we say a female king But she's remembered as a seductress. How should we understand her relationships with Julia Caesar and Mark Antony? I would like to die on this hill that Cleopatra is the greatest queen and she's the greatest queen because she's a diplomat. She's a linguist. apparently, she could speak nine languages, including to the Trogyidites G goodoodness knows what the Troglyitesoke I don. And she was one of the few of her Ptolemaic line to actually learn Egyptian. I mean, they'd been on the throne for three hundred years, you thought by now. They could have manage it by now, a little bit. Not that difficult surely. And she was this great linguist, this great diplomat and an incredible monarch. And yet she is always blamed for the end of Egypt, but it wasn't her fault. You, Rome had captured everywhere else and Egypt was the last little bit. but also her great uncle in particular, he pretty much mortgaged Egypt to Rome and said if I die without heirs, you can come and get it After that, the die was cast. So Cleopatra actually It was not the end of Egypt. She held onto it for longer than anyone else would have done. And that was because she created alliances with Rome. F Julius Caesar then Mark Antony and it drives me crazy the way she's seen her so sexualised and it's turned into a seductress. I mean, when she met Julia Caesar, he was in his fifties. she was probably twenty one or twenty two, and he'd had Plenty of wives, any amount of lovers and the wives of his officers really had had to submit to him. So he's a seducer. but it's always her who's blamed for it. And because Cleopatra has so often been written about by her enemies, by these Roman scholars, by these Roman historians, what they're trying to say is, hey guys Don't try resist, give in straight away. Otherwise you'll bring ruin on all Egypt. They call her wanton daughter, the Ptolemies and another Roman writer said she's a courtesan. and this carries on and on and on. then I mean, I get it. Shakespeare isn't going to write a play about someone who was really good at economics and trade and languages. He wants the sexualised image. But we have there the Anthony saying, Where is my serpent of old Nil and I feed myself on most delicious poison. incredible play, I think By the time he was writing, Antony Cleopatra James is on the throne and the whole point is yeah, yeah, Qeens are rubbish. Stuarts go. I mean, on Shakespeare when he's on a roll has got hold of a character, you are going to really struggle to shake off that vision. So Shakespeare gives us Julius Caesar upstanding. Shakespeare gives us Henry V upstanding. he gives us Cleopatra. sexual indulgent decadident failure but she wasn't she wasn't. You know, the meeting between Cleopatra and Julius Caesar wasn't active moment It was a summit between two superpowers. And unlike all Atolemies before her, she got Rome on her side in an equal partnership, not one where Rome was in charge and She had Caesar's child and that child, Caesarean made her very, very dangerous because that child could rule Egypt and Rome together a gigantic superpower With Caesar not been assassinated in the Ides of March, Cleopatra would have been fine Trumbled on in Egypt forever and ever And yet battles of power in Rome changed the lives of all of those in the empire and outside of the empire. So Caesar is assassinated Cleer Patra is back to square one and she has to then make the alliance with Mark Antony In the end, she made the right decision with Caesar Did she make it with Mark Antony? Should she have all lied with Octavian? Phaps it wasn't even possible. but I think Cleopatra in managing to hold off Roman influence until the very end. She is a sensation. Yeah I think it's a really powerful image when we reframe those relationships that Cleopatra had with Julius Caesar, Mark Antony. P of her political toolkit as a way of expressing her diplomatic relations that she was creating, I've got to ask, on her death Did she really die from a snake bite? Well, I get very fascinated by this Charlte, I get very fascinated by this. Did Cleopatra die of a snake bite? And it just is this sort of sexualized magical version of Egypt But the reality, I think zero chance she died by a snake bite. And actually Plutarch, who wrote the most about Cleopatra in his biographies of Caesar and Mar Antony, he used to fudges it a bit as maybe maybe with snake poison because he knows that even though the Romans bought into this Fther east of Egypt, even they would know this was unlikely, because how can you hide a gigantic Egyptian snake in your rooms? I mean, like any pet, I've got a friend who's got a snake and it' always running away. The snake wouldn't have been lying there, would it? And also, a lot of snakes do have no venom, they have dry bites. You cannot guarantee It's going to work, and it's going to take a long time to act. There's no way that if Cleopata was being watched, by Octavian and his men that she would have managed to use a snake poison. And really fascinatingly, there's a fresco in Pompei that shows Cleopatra drinking the poison, it seems, in a cup, which would have made it much more likely. I mean this woman studied poisons, studied medicines, and Let's face it. She came from a dynasty that bumped each other off with no compunction. They knew how to poison each other at the Ptolemies. they were always killing each other. She knew how to kill herself swiftly with a poison. and the likelihood of it being a snake bite, I think is just possible. Think about Copata Who benefited Who benefits her dying It's the Romans because I think the last thing that Octavian wanted was a real life Cleopatra living in captivity in Rome because that could have been a superb threat to his total vision that Egypt was excessive and needed to be taken over and all its money taken and Mark Antony had been seduced by the East. And Cleopatr said, actually no, that's not true Because Octavian said that he found Marc Cantonu's will and it said Ohh, you know, give everything to Cleopatra. and I think Rome should give everything up. And Cleopatra could have said, notot true true So it does very much benefit Octavian, M Cleopatra is dead. Her children were taken and put in the triumph. Her children by Marcount Nice Cesaria and her son by Caesar was killed. Surprising. Surprising. He got bumped off by Caesar's men. I mean, you think, Oh, yes, he would have kept Cleopatra alive but killed her son. It does fascinate me that everyone else of power is bumped off about Cleopata, but the claim is that she committed suicide. I think that's a very interesting rereading of that thought We will never know. we will never know For sure. Now, moving on from the ancient world of female kings What type of queens do we start to see emerging in the early Middle Ages? We see great periods of female kingship and I think certainly Egypt is won. and then we really see, I think in the kind of four hundreds, nine hundreds, a real growth in female power. Great traditions. I think often when Societies are in transition we see fema monarchs. It may be because all the men have died in battle and they think, well, there's no one left. Let's have a woman. or it may be because a woman perhaps think is more secure because she doesn't necessarily have to go out to battle. she can take the throne But certainly a lot of these transitional periods where you see Egypt moving to empire, where you see going up to the ninetine hundreds or so the movement from small kingdoms to larger empires. And then again in the sixteenth century, when we're seeing the transition to what we would see as a more modern state with a civil service, these are times when we see particular growth in female power and it really fascinated me that we often think that the Chrysanthemum throne in Japan always male only. The current emperor has one daughter and she cannot inherit. But actually it's a very recent law. It was a nineteenth century law that was then formalized in nineteen forty seven post war. and we see some really great female empresses in the early period in Japan and they are so powerful and so admired and so beloved. And then the military empire comes on that's the end of the female empresses. but until that period you see a real growth in these womomen who are not just there because there's no one else but actually chosen to be monarched. Another area that really fascinated me was Cambodia. I mean, I've had some tough research trips for this for this bookshop. I mean I suffer. I suffer, but I put research first first all these tough things, I put research first. But in Cambodia, you know Ankorat is, I mean, it's wondrous, but it also is symbolic of this great male monarchy that came along. And before that, there were a lot of female monarchs, and it was actually a matriarchy was passed down from mother to daughter. and reallyally we have to look at the history as well because a lot of the history that was written about this, The female monarchs were conquered, but actually it does seem as if they married and they created these alliances in marriage. and it was a peaceful alliance that they chose to bond together. And yet history hasn't liked that idea, So has said, Oh yes, female queens that conquered those monarchs And so Ankle Wat is, of course, absolutely incredible, but also symbolic of this sort male military regime that we see coming after a series of female monarchs that we also see in other countries like Japan as well. So I was so fascinated by this early period that sees a real congratulation of Fema rule And into the medieval period, one of my favorites is the thirteenth century monarch, Khadija of the Maldives. Now I didn't go on a research trip to this. I really wanted to, but you know if you see me in the Maldives on social media, you'll know it's a research trip.arches. I don't believe there's much remaining of her palace, her archives there Kadja the Mldives, she bumped off her brother to get the throne, Then she got married because I think she felt she had to continue the line. H husband got too keen on power, bumped him off. Then she tried again, hopeful. He got to K in power, bumped him off and stayed that ruling alone after that. And she's incredible This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast instead of doom scrolling? Smart move Another smart move Getting help from one of State Farm's nineteen thousand local agents when you choose to bundle home and auto. Bundling Just another way to save with the personal price plan. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state. Now jumping forward In book you also described the sixteenth century as a period of unprecedented levels of queenship. Amongst the other famous queens that you write about from the sixteenth century are Catherine of Aragon and Anne Boleynn But you suggest in the book we shouldn't view them as rivals. Yes, offtten, Catherine and Anne are set against each other. One is glamorous, one is dowdy. And for me, Katherine and Anne, it is about what does the consort mean? becausecause the consort is really unassailable. That's Henry VII's problem. He can't just say Can I have another wife or can I use one of my illegitimate children? He has to get rid of her and he can't even give her the kindindness of divorcing her saying, well come so far, Katherine, but time to move on. He actually has to annul the marriage and say they were never married and plunge her into this impossible limbo that Katherine and Anne are both embodiments of really I think the male monarchy and the male society, realizing that the consort has got too much power. She can't be dislodged, she can't be moved. There are precedents of divorce and annulment People don't want it to happen. When Catherine of Aragan married HenryI, vision was, she'd be queen ever So Catherine of Aragon fights back so bravely against Henry VIII over and over again, she won't just take it and perhaps her life would have been much easier had she agreed to him straightw away just like Anne of Cleves does and say, well, okay I'll retire from court, give me a couple of mansions and houses. Instead, she fights and she suffers for it because he excludes her. She can't see her daughter Mary. It's miserable And then when he comes to Anne Boyn, when he wants to get rid of Anne Bolein, he realizes he can't try and set her aside as well. She has to be political assassination where she's set up with all this evidence that she's had sex with man after man, you know, not long after the birth of Elizabeth, when they're at court surrounded by the people. And Henry VIII says, Oh, I think more than a hundred men had to do with Anne, you think one hundred men. Are you really saying seriously that a hundred men had to do with Anne? In the less than three years she was married to you Henry turns Anne into this monster and if Anne had simply had one son We would remember her in such a different way. She would be Anne the matron, and the mother of sons. And instead, thanks to Henry, he wanted to characterize her as this wild, ductrouress, this sinful woman. And that's often how history has seen it. The idea of Anne as this stuctrous excess has stuck. And I think there's a comparison with Cleopatra Cleopacha tried to present herself as a divine mother instead, everyveryone said she was a ductress. and I'm sure Anne would have done the same with Elizabeth, but we've lost all of Anne's representations of herself apart from the later ones like the wondrous He the portrait we don't have anything other than a medallion aanne from the time I really think that Anne and Catherine symbolize this incredible power of the woman, the consort. In previous times Just got rid of them Now, it is a fight that almost brings Henry VIII off the throne. And isn't it the greatest irony that when Henry VI dies after poor son Edge of the S dies in great agony There are three potential females for the throne. It's Lady Jane Grey, it's Mary I, it's Elizabeth. And the biggest, I told you so to Henry VIII is that he turned the world upside down. to have a son, and yet who is often seen as the greatest tudor, it's Elizabeth I It is a lovely irony, isn't it? Yes, takeake that, Henry VII, hope you saw it. Hope you saw it. abbsolutely. So as you mentioned, after Catherine and Anne, we get some fantastic Tudor quQeens following, Mary I has pretty grom reputation. She's often known as blloody Mary. And many historians suggest that she's been judged unfairly and that that name isn't fair. I am dying on many hills in this podcast. I am dying on many hills. I've died on the Cleopatra Hill, Marary the first Hill. you think yes, she burned around two hundred and eighty people and that was brutal. the actual immperial ammbassador told her not to. Her father, in Hond's Chronicles suggested he executed seventy two thousand people. And I don't think it's that many, maybe more like twenty thousand people. But her brother, five thousand five hundred people died in Devon and Cornwall in the Prayer Book Rebellion. Elizabeth executed many people But Mary becomes the bloody one with actually she's the most merciful of Tudors because she keeps Lady Jane Greay alive. Most people would probably have chopped Lady Jane Gray's head off because Lady Jane Greay had taken the throne when it should have been Mary's and Mary is kind to her. She keeps her alive and only when Lady Jane Grey's idiot father gets involved in a rebellion against Mary, does Mary realize that I'm going to have to do something about this because she's pushed to do so. But Mary, I think is the most merciful of Tudors and she's characterized as bloody Mary, but why has it stayed with us all these years? I think that Mary is castigated and criticised as a way of revoling and praising Elizabeth it was about Protestants writing history. but I also think there's something very cruel about the phrase bloody Mary because women associate them with blood and Mary who tried so hard to have a child. It is totally heartbreaking, but yes Mary's short reign, she made great advances in terms of the Queen's maesty in terms of the Queen's power, the coronation. She laid down the roadmap for Elizabeth and yet Elizabeth She is always seen as the great quQueen in Mary was terrible. Do you think that Marie Antoinette is the same? In your book, you suggest that she became a human shooting range? Now this is what we see, I think, in extremis in Marie Antoinette. Yes, she was the human shooting range and that's why I wanted to include her Over and over again we see queens attacked when people are too nervous to attack the king because he could be divinely ordained after all. and she's an easy target. There is misogyny, but also she's not the monarch, the blood. She's married into it And with Marie Antoinette, she becomes this mononstrous image she becomes blamed for everything. Now yes, Versailles spent a lot, the aristocrats spent a lot, she spent a lot, but it was nothing compared to the spending the military spending of being on the other side in the American Wars of Revolution, fighting back against Britain, and also the archaic taxation collection system that they have Mar Antoette is blamed for everything and she is the whole job of a queen that she was trained for. is to be symbolic of wealth and excellence and society. And she continues this And then she's turned by those around her into a monster. She's portrayed as this partarty animals, sexualized, excessive s a fffair of the diamond necklace by which a necklace that she had refused and never wanted is imposed upon her and a whole scandal about it is turned into caricat chores in which there's a slippage between Bejou due within French, which also could mean female genital. What's so interesting She's the one who's blamed and so the king is executed And he's executed in not a trial that's not necessarily fair, but he's allowed to review the evidence. A democratic vote is taken on his killing And so it is, by the stand, as I say, a fair trial, to a degree Marie Antoinetci has his trial 're allowed to review the evidence and there's no vote. and the committee beforehand they say, Ohh, well, we've got to give crroud Marian Toinette's head. Owise they'll come for hours. They blatantly say if we don't cut off the quQueen's head The crowd are going to cut off our head. Well, they did anyway. And she is put on this trial with all this trumped up evidence that someone one saw some bottles under someone's bed in Versailles, and that meant there were orges and all these accusations to create her into this monster. And she is executed If you're so scared of the monarchy, if the monarchy is so terrible, as it was in the French Revolution You kill the king, right? okay? But why not kill The heir to the throne, the young boy. now he's sent off to be apprentice to a workman and We might say we wouldn't kill children. Plenty of small children were killed in the Revolution. Aristocratic children were killed. He is not killed. and he does die of neglect and malnutrition, we believe. But also the king's brothers who have fled, they fled into Austria They's alive If you really feel male monarchy so much, why kill the quQeen? Why not kill those brothers of the king, the heirs to the throne who do later come to the throne? And it is almost the situation that the consort, a woman who has no right to the throne could never get the throne, she is seen as more symbolic of the horrors and the depredation, the disaster of monarchy than the monarchy itself. She is a human shooting range. By the nineteenth century, we get Queen Victoria, who has been in comparison to someone like Marie Antoinette, associated with much more positive views of queenship But this is also the age of the British Empire and constitutional monarchy How was quQueenship used to sell imperial power? Victoria was an image spinner. She spun that image of the perfect domestic wife and mother with a vengeance and the British public laupped it up. From her image of herself and Albert in eighteen forty eight with a Christmas tree that meant that Everyone, after that, H have a Christmas tree, Victoria turned domesticity family life into this power base for herself and this image of the quQeen and her perfect domestic home life, which wasn't the truth. She and Albert were always arguing and Victoria was bent on keeping her own power to herself. She's used across the empire as the image of the most Perfect queen and probleblem because there are quite a lot of fema monics. across Empire at this point and the imperial forces, the British forces want them out But you can't say, o, quQueen's terrible becausecause you've got Victoria,' the perfect quueen, what you can say Is there a monster? compared to Victoria. So for example, the Queen of Madagascar, Ranavolona, she was characterized as a total total monster and Victoria's image was repeatedly given by these envoys to Bovver, saying, C't you be more like Victoria? Here you are setting off these military campaigns and killing your people and refusing the missionaries. Can't you be more like her? So Victoria is used as an image of pererfect sentimental domesticity and perfect middle class happiness across the empire from everything from biscuit tins to statues, to ceremonies to images. But she's also actually physically given as an image portraits of Victoria to queens themselves, to the Queen of Madagascar saying, be more like her and what they mean by telling theQueen of Madagascar to be more like Victoria is saying, Be more subservient do what we say. be with us and also Be a Christian, let those missionaries back in and the Queen of Madagascar sees missionaries as a sort of condui allowing imperial power in. so she throws the missionaries out. And that to me is so fascinating that Victoria is used to sell empire across the world in terms of being this Perfect submissive, subservient domestic constitutional queen when the reality of Victoria was very different. She was someone who was always asking her ministers about updates. and this wonderful Ph student of myine Gabrielle did some fascinating work on Victoria about how she'd write to women in the empire saying, Look, no one's telling me what's really going on. You tell me what's going on And so she knows the power of the monarchy, and at the same time she's being used as this image of sentimental perfection. I think that comparison is really revealing about how quQueenship and monarchy is embroiled in empire itself. Embroiled, that is such a good word. It is. Qeenship monarchy is embroiled in empire. It's embroiled in oppression of a nations is that the idea Oh Britain as the ultimate ruler with Victoria at the top of the tree. fair diplomatic is used as justification to seize power from Other monarchs other women and people across the empire. Yeah, that's quite an uncomfortable reality to face, isn't it? By the twentieth century, though, as we progress through the twentieth century, empire is increasingly seen as less palatable What were expectations of a queen then? Grace Kelly to me So emblematic of a new type of queenship in the twentieth century and that is the televisual queenship. She is someone who is really brought in to create an image of Monaco of Gness and grandeur Before Grace Kelly, No one really knew where Monaco was. It was much declined after World War T. It had lost a lot, totally in debt. It is really this tiny little place with absolutely nothing. Prince Raino of Monaco need solution. And Aristotle Onassis, who's a big investor in Monaco, he's got this great idea. He says Rainio You know what you need to do to sort out these problems. The fact that Monaco is impoverished, coffers are empty and if coffers are empty France might come calling and that could be a problem. Let's get you married to a movie star. and the movie star can put you on the map. One of the initial candidates, which I really find very amusing is Marilyn Monroe. She initially thought that she could marry Prince Radeer and she thinks it's hilarious. She calls him Prince Reindeer. and she thinks it's so funny. But then idea of Grace Kelly es up who is a Catholic like Rainia, and she's from a very wealthy Irish American family from Philadelphia. She has this image unlike Marilyn of a perfect good girl, of the perfect woman. She's will an Oscar and Grace Kelly marries the Prince of Monaco, really not knowing him very well. She goes over to France for the Canne Film Festival, and one of the chaps on the train says,, wouldould you mind popping over to the palace and doing a photo shoot she does it for parry matchion How much take the photos, and he Prince Rainie takes her all around the Renagerie and then after that they correspond and he comes and proposes at her family's house in America. And I love the fact that she starts out as an advertising model and then of course, I think advertises Hollywood as a place of kindness and sensitivity which it was not. And now she's advertising Monaco and that Wondrous footage of Grace Kelly marrying in the beautiful cathedral of Monaco. I mean when I watch it, she looks So serene But she said that once you went in All she saw camer everywhere in every fllyower arrangement, there were cameras all watching her because she was performing. for the cameras and yet As she grew older, she' of tried to fight against the princess image But she couldn't. It was too powerful. She said, I never saw anything fairy tale about it. And in fact, she had a meeting. Diana Ser Diana was engaged. she was not yet married to Charles. It was one of her first engagements and she was very upset because The dress she'd worn was deemed to be wrong. She hadn't known. no one had given her any heads up. and she and Grace went to the powder room And Grace is by this point, much older than Diana. and Grace says, don't worry it's going to get much worse. Thanks L. But I think that Grace, to me, really epitomizes that idea that the princess in the twentieth century needs to sell the happiness of the country, the fairy tale, and we forget S of the great things that Grace Kelley did because Grace created this princess fantasy that was so strong, because she was such a brilliant actress. It was too strong. She then couldn't escape it. And we often forget some of the great things she did with the Red Cross, with charities, but also by prevailing on Rainier and saying we should give women the vote when there's a new cononstitution. Grace a woman wouldn't be able to vote ensured the political liberation of the women of Monaco beautiful princess image definitely took hold in the case of Princess Grace and also in the case of Diana Both of their stories show it's very difficult to live up to that image and that stereotype When you are researching this book and kind of zooming out and looking at it as a whole, Which of the women surprised you the most? Which of the most defied their misconstrued stereotypes That is a good question because I felt that all of them once I started looking into them, had been characterised by these stereotypes that I know history has been fighting against. The wider culture has not, but I think Queen who I knew the least about and was the most revelatory to me. was An another ardest research trip to beautiful Hawaii and the Queen of Hawaii, who was an Credible Siga When she came to the throne at the end of the nineteenth century after her brother, the first female monarch of Hawaii, and already powers around her who were trying to seize her throne. Those people, those Americans and British and European, M Americans who had bought land made sugar, farms, sugar plantations in Hawaii wanted power. they wanted representation, they wanted to be in the Senate, they wanted to seize power. And so the quQueen of Hawai, power is seized from her and She fights back. First she's deposed, she's pushed out of power. She's told that if she doesn't give in, there'll be a revolution. And it's really interesting. over and over again, queens are told that if they don't give in, there'll be a revolution. They they do because they don't want their people to die, but kings like, yeah bring it on, bring on. OK, let's see how many you going gonna die? And she is pushed off the throne and then she's accused of conspiracy to fight back And she's put on trial In her palace, the Ielani Palace, the only palace on American soil, she's put on trial and they tell her, donon't go on trial. It's undignified for you. And she says, What have I got left? I've got nothing left and I'm going to speak for myself. And her words are so powerful. Over and over again, people try to stop quQeens speaking at their trials from Katherine Aragant, Mary Queen of Scots to the Queen Hai And they speak up and everyone realizes what a travesty it is. in fora I was imprison And she was denied newspapers or visitors apart from one lady in waiting and no pencil or pen or anything. And she wasn't even allowed to walk on the balcony so people could see her. What she was not denied was a needle and thread creates this sensational quilt of resistance. drawers and embroiders Her resistance, her power as queen in this quilt, which is still on show. and then they release her She's finally released because I think American pressure and actually the United States say, whyy are we imprisoning this poor woman It's not fair. And then she writes her own memoir, Hawaii's Story by Hawai'sQueen, published by a publisher in Boston, and it becomes a best seller and she makes it clear that no one could say it was her desire to lose the throne. It was a democratic vote, that the Hawaiians wanted to keep the throne. I love the Queen of Hawaii And I think her power, her resistance right u her death in nineteen seventeen was Absolutely admirable. And she is an image in modern day Hawaii of independence. There are many Queen of Lu Hali's statues, including a big one in front of the Hawaiian state buildings But I chose her particularly because she is emblematic of the fact that if you don't tellell your own story as a woman, as a queen, it'll be told for you. And she tells it in music embroidery and her book. Yeah it's so fantastic that we have that resource of her voice and heraz. Message of resistance. I also wanted to ask you about which of the queens you are most drawn to. So let's play a game Oh my go of dinner, drinks or Dodge Which of the queens would you pick for each? So dinner, drinks or dodge. Dinner. I think it would have to be Cleopatra because apparently her dinners were huge. The Roman commentators and indeed someone who apparently had a connection with the palace said there were pretty gigantic meals Big celebrations over and over again in Egypt is such a wonderful land of great agricultural wealth. So I think they would have loads of really nice food. And also in one of the dinners leopapatra takes a pearl and she dissolves it in the wine and she drinks it. And I wonder, you know I wonder, is this one of the pearls that maybe Julia Caesar found in Britain? Is that a British pel? She's dissolving. That's one of my little thoughts I would like to go to one of Cleopat's dinner because perhaps they wouldn't have had my favourite chocolate biscuits there to be eaten. I don't think so, but I'm sure there' been other wondrous things and it would have been grand and excessive, although I do worry that my outfits wouldn't have been up to it and something might have said, you know that Go and sit down there thely. Okay, so then drinks. you're stopping by for a quick cheeky drink with a queen Wh are going to be? My drinks would be with these two great embroideres, either Mary Queen of Scots or Queen of Hai. the problem is I feel that if I paid visit the Queen of Hawaii and didn't manag to bring along any embroidery techniques, she might have been a little bit disappointed in me. But I can do the music. so hopefully she would have forgiven me with the music, but yes, I would love to see the quueen Hawai. I'm sure you're quite strict on your rules, aren't you S? I can't be interventionist. No. I can't tell these queens what's coming. I can't say I' know Cleop Patrra. Mark Countony should send Cesarean away and hide him because I'llump him off. I shouldn't say that No, you can't say that's not allowed. You'reurely there to eat and enjoy and drink and sow then maybe the sew wouldn't go so well if you were drin case okay.ertaining it' a disaster. And I think who am I going to avoid? He's going to dodge? I think this is controversial, but I think I might Dodge Elizabeth I first. Oh Yes. I know it's controversial The feellllow ginger, We're gingers together. I'm wondering whether I would have had the intellect to live up to Elizabeth I's expectations and lively conversation. I'm just not sure I could have done it. That's a good answer. I like that think I think it's a tough one though, it's a tough one, but it depends on what situation I'm in. Am I just a powerless lady in waiting? because you just an observer. justust an observer because I would have been a terrible lady in waiting. Also I do her habit of saying the wrong thing. So I think I would' have been long executed by anyone Yes, I just don't think Elizabeth I would have thought much of me. The embroidery was poor. you know my conversational skill was probably quite good enough and I think, yes I might have been quite swiftly. So then looking ahead now Do you think will ever stop expecting queens to live up to an impossible ideal and then criticising them when they don't. I think we do expect women in particular in the monarchy to live up to this impossible idea. This obsession with both female behaviour and the image of women And that combines with female monarchy to make really it impossible, I think, for anyone to hit those standards and it is almost as if the image is preferred to the reality of that golden image of Elizabeth II on her coronation Day. The vision of Grace Kelly when she is marrying in the cathedral of Monaco, that almost that is what people want more than the actual reality of a flesh and blood woman And I think for me Female monarchy is like a bellwetather, it's like a thermometer of how we see women in society and whether she is, bad with money, seducers, led by the heart, needs male guidance, cannot rule alone. And these stories repeat and repeat even until the modern day, perhaps when we can finally see a queen as a flesh and blood woman in the same way that we might see a male monarch. will be a moment when we have reached a different perception of women in society. At the end of your book, you mention the idea of replacing queens with holograms I realized that it's a little bit tongue in cheek, but I wondered if you could expand on what you meant by that. I was thinking about that moment in the Platinum Jubilee when the Gold State coach, which is famously uncomfortable. I mean, I wouldn't know I've never been in it, but famously uncomfortable was sent out around Palace in the mouth on TV And the real life Elizabeth I second, in her nineties was not in it It was actually a hologram of the young queen as she had been in her twenties waving out. and everyone thought that was marvellous and is that what we want? monarchs who aren't ill, who don't age, who don't tire, who don't complain, who wave like a magical hologram. and That's what so fascinated me And yes, it would have been It's really barbaric to put a woman in her nineties in such an uncomfortable mode of transport Would we get to a situation where a younger monarch or a younger royal woman could you put in a state coach and go around as a hologram? You sometometimes I think we make such demands of our female monarchs. are the demands we make on these women? too much That was Professor Kate Williams speaking to Charlotte Vosper Katea' a historian, presenter and author specializing in royal history And her latest book, Regina, A New History of Women and Power, is out now